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These are really good. I notice you left out most of the Demon Lords, was this because of familiarity or something else?

I know we said wights for Orcus, but looking through, I think maybe bodaks (killed by the presence of absolute evil) or slaughter wights would be better instead.

Kain Darkwind wrote:These are really good. I notice you left out most of the Demon Lords, was this because of familiarity or something else?

Familiarity. You have a bunch of demons I've never heard of floating around there.

I know we said wights for Orcus, but looking through, I think maybe bodaks (killed by the presence of absolute evil) or slaughter wights would be better instead.

Bodaks sounds much better. Max hit dice bodaks sounds the best.

And glad you liked them. I tried to orient most of them around the idea of perpetuating what the demon stood for even after they were destroyed (Demogorgon's release of utter corruption and Graz'zt mass impregnation being great examples of this, with Malcanthet's spread of seducers being a rather strained one) or at least killing the guys who killed the demon (Apollyon's), but I wanted to avoid things like spawning yet another monster in the demon's wake (except with Orcus, with whom it was very appropriate).

I noticed that you did Gwynharwyf, but not Morwel and her consort. Are you planning to give them stats too, or will she remain the only Eladrin? The same goes for Barachiel and the other Tome Archons.

Keveras wrote:I noticed that you did Gwynharwyf, but not Morwel and her consort. Are you planning to give them stats too, or will she remain the only Eladrin? The same goes for Barachiel and the other Tome Archons.

Those two are the only ones I've gotten around to. The others exist, just statless at the moment.

Any plans on statting Miska or the Queen of Chaos, Kain?

KingCrazyGenius wrote:Any plans on statting Miska or the Queen of Chaos, Kain?

Yup.

I smell Paizo wizardry about your latest post. How did she get the betrayal and draining kiss powers though, aside from the always possible "I just decided she got them" angle.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:I smell Paizo wizardry about your latest post. How did she get the betrayal and draining kiss powers though, aside from the always possible "I just decided she got them" angle.

You should smell Paizo wizardry, but she's also a 'Thrall of Malcanthet', which is where she got the rest of the powers.

One concern I have about this is the nature of demons in 4e as compared to 3e. Demons like the succubi queens have no place in the Abyss as they currently are. If Graz'zt is going to be kept mostly the same, he may have an association with the less overtly destructive yugodemons, which is where I would put the succubi queens as well if you don't want to send them to Hell as Glaysa's handmaidens.

Speaking of Hell, are you going to keep the 3e Alternate World set-up of Baal, Dispater, Mammon, Belial, Leviathan, Lilith, Beelzebub, Mephistopheles, and Asmodeus, or are you going to adopt the 4e setup where Belial and Fierana are far closer in power, Leviathan is humanoid, Glaysa rules the 6th Hell, Beelzebub is a slug, and Mephistopheles is hellfiery?

KingCrazyGenius wrote:Speaking of Hell, are you going to keep the 3e Alternate World set-up of Baal, Dispater, Mammon, Belial, Leviathan, Lilith, Beelzebub, Mephistopheles, and Asmodeus, or are you going to adopt the 4e setup where Belial and Fierana are far closer in power, Leviathan is humanoid, Glaysa rules the 6th Hell, Beelzebub is a slug, and Mephistopheles is hellfiery?

I typically run a GoH Hell, regardless of the current fad in Infernal origins. Beelzebul was actually going to be a slug in GoH until I successfully petitioned for the solar with fly-eyes. That said, I don't have a problem with Levistus or Glasya and it is entirely possible that I will assume that state of Hell for the 4e Reality. But really, it is undetermined until I can better see how well their Hell works in their own world for consistency. Much of the changes AW advocates are changes due to contradiction within their own material. (Like Kezef the Chaos hound being CR 21 but chasing Mask all over the cosmos)

As for Fierna/Belial, that stupid "same stats with a couple differences" has been going on since 2e, and it is derived from laziness. I don't like it.

Not laziness alone. In both 3e and 4e they are described as sharing power, Fierna as the official ruler and Belial as the power behind the throne, with later sources indicating that Fierna is growing more and more ambitious. I personally cannot wait for her to overthrow and destroy/consume/imprison and siphon power away from her father once and for all.

I'm all for them being different, but I don't think Belial should necessarily be significantly more powerful than his daughter, if at all. Not anymore.

While Fierana is my favorite Archdevil, I don't want to see her overthrowing Belial, if only because it feels a bit... cliche.

I was originally toying around with having Belial as a level31 solo, while Fierana would be a level31 elite. But at the time I was thinking of sticking to having Orcus at Level33. Turning him into a level35 Solo gives me more space to work in, methinks.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:Not laziness alone.

Yes, laziness alone. It is a hold over from their stat blocks in Guide to Hell, which gave the first set of identical statblocks, right down to the ability scores. BoVD based their own versions nearly wholesale off those from GtH, and the laziness continued. Even if you wanted to make them at the same power level, giving them the same damn HD and ability scores is a lazy way to go about it. It is the 'same statblock' that I hate, not the idea of Belial and Fierana being the same power level (which I merely disagree with).

In both 3e and 4e they are described as sharing power, Fierna as the official ruler and Belial as the power behind the throne, with later sources indicating that Fierna is growing more and more ambitious. I personally cannot wait for her to overthrow and destroy/consume/imprison and siphon power away from her father once and for all.

I'm all for them being different, but I don't think Belial should necessarily be significantly more powerful than his daughter, if at all. Not anymore.

Naturally I disagree, although I feel that Fierana should be a close match for Baal (and is, in my AW build). I expect her to grow more into her power, but I don't have them on the cusp of betraying each other. Rather, in true diabolic fashion, they give the impression of scheming against each other, while laughing about it in the throes of passion every night. It helps to root out traitors when you have the two leaders of 'opposing factions' working with each other.

That sounds incredibly lame. I always figured it was obvious that Asmodeus gave Fierana her increased power as a means of either propelling Belial into action (as he seems to be the least active and accomplished Lord) or else grooming a more suitable replacement. Unfortunately for the single-minded Belial, he seems to think he is still in the clear as long as he can dominate his daughter.

IMO, the LotN should be as they are in GoH. Leviathan as a giant monster is just great, IMO. Same for Beelzebub, who has the coolest picture Serge has ever drawn ( ) and Lilith as the Lord of the 6th. If you really want to stick with 4E, Lilith is probably the only one I would let go, but I prefer her over Glasya as ruler of the 6th.
Also, there's Lixer in GoH, and I think he's closer to Lordship than his sister.

I'm of the opinion that Kain should drop all pretenses of 4e Alternate World existing within the 4e WotC cosmology and just use the flavor he likes and make mechanics to go with it.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:That sounds incredibly lame. I always figured it was obvious that Asmodeus gave Fierana her increased power as a means of either propelling Belial into action (as he seems to be the least active and accomplished Lord) or else grooming a more suitable replacement. Unfortunately for the single-minded Belial, he seems to think he is still in the clear as long as he can dominate his daughter.

Personally, I'm so tired of all of the Lords owing their innate power rather than their positions to Asmodeus. To me, Asmodeus decreed Fierna rules with Belial...that happens, but Fierna doesn't get a sudden blast of juice that makes her an archdevil...she was already worthy of the role before being named into it. I like the idea of Asmodeus' schemes rather than his innate brute power being the reason the Lords stand no chance against him. (Obviously they stand no chance against the Overlord, but it is my opinion that if the Overlord's avatar was defeated, he would be pleased with how well his children have grown. After all, he can't free himself.)

As such, she is growing into her own woman/devil and may in fact one day surpass her father. Lawful Evil isn't solely about backstabbing though...the concept of loyalty exists. What doesn't and shouldn't exist is the concept of trust. That's a foolish weakness that gets punished. So yes, my Belial and Fierna are loyal to each other, because they are loyal to the Fourth Hell above all. Fierana is seen as a wasteful slut, who doesn't really know how to rule, and Belial is seen as an old and feeble devil unable to reign his daughter in. And that leads to them being underestimated, which is ideally how they want it.

It all sounds good, but brute power is what seperates the Lords from their lessers, not schemes and cunning. This is as true in D&D as it is in Alternate World as it is in GoH. Their mechanics don't represent devils who aren't much stronger than their lessers but have better mental scores, they represent devils who have 20-30 more hit dice/levels and a few powerful templates. In fact the only incarnation I've seen of Asmodeus where he seemed beatable by his lessers is in BoVD. It doesn't get any better in 4e, where Asmodeus is a full-fledged deity and the other lords are not, and thus have no chance of beating him.

The situation may not be as bad amongst the common devils compared to the Lords of the First through Eighth though. Pit fiends are 27th level elites, and I don't see more than two of the lords being above 33rd level if even that far.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:It all sounds good, but brute power is what seperates the Lords from their lessers, not schemes and cunning. This is as true in D&D as it is in Alternate World as it is in GoH. Their mechanics don't represent devils who aren't much stronger than their lessers but have better mental scores, they represent devils who have 20-30 more hit dice/levels and a few powerful templates. In fact the only incarnation I've seen of Asmodeus where he seemed beatable by his lessers is in BoVD. It doesn't get any better in 4e, where Asmodeus is a full-fledged deity and the other lords are not, and thus have no chance of beating him.

The situation may not be as bad amongst the common devils compared to the Lords of the First through Eighth though. Pit fiends are 27th level elites, and I don't see more than two of the lords being above 33rd level if even that far.

More power certainly separates the Lords from their lessers. It certainly does not separate the Lords from each other. Nor from Asmodeus. I'm not interested in a massive omnipotent being forcing the Lords to heel, I find it somewhat boring. Rather, Asmodeus in AW is more powerful than the others, but not to the extent where he is lightyears beyond them.

Because it is his schemes and plots and plans that make him appear invincible and all knowing. As it should be.


Even in the 4e setting, saying Asmodeus is a god and therefore untouchable by other Lords is silly...after all, Asmodeus slew his deity while just an angel.

It's his +9 King of Hell bonus to everything and his hextuple (or is it sextuple?) hit points that give him the appearance of invincibility, not his schemes. If you didn't have that tasty little mechanic I'd probably concede the argument right now and give you props on you making a more interesting Asmodeus than most have pulled off.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:It's his +9 King of Hell bonus to everything and his hextuple (or is it sextuple?) hit points that give him the appearance of invincibility, not his schemes. If you didn't have that tasty little mechanic I'd probably concede the argument right now and give you props on you making a more interesting Asmodeus than most have pulled off.

Sextuple. (Don't the Lords have triple, or did I forget to make that official?)

Which, as I said, makes him more powerful (and a viable rather than laughable threat for his CR, to boot), not unstoppable. I don't want a King of Hell that can be slaughtered by a kobold. But if you don't think the combined might of the Lords of Hell vs Asmodeus in a pure stat match would triumph, you are deluding yourself or not reading the same stats. You move the fight out of Hell into "The Arena", Asmodeus will die. The reason he doesn't die in Hell is because his myriad plans have set the stage for dividing any possibility of an alliance that could destroy him.

He IS the most powerful devil in Hell. I'm not going to suggest that Hell works with comic book logic, where physically inferior beings can survive the wrath of creatures more powerful than gods by sheer virtue of their intelligence. That and the morality they usually manipulate to survive doesn't exist in Hell. But at the same time, he exists within range of the Lords to depose him and assume the King of Hell power for themselves. After all, Asmodeus did just that to Lucifer.

Remember, in-game, people don't get to look at statblocks. No one knows he has a +9 bonus and x6 hp. His schemes however, are something they know intimately.

While all eight of the Lords combined could defeat him, Asmodeus would wipe the floor if it were just two or three at once. The only Lords I can see actually joining forces to beat up on Asmodeus would be Lilith and Mephistopheles, Baal has other things on his mind, Dispater is a coward who would never try it, no one trusts Mammon or Leviathan, and Belial and Beelzebub would be working against Lilith and Mephisto.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:While all eight of the Lords combined could defeat him, Asmodeus would wipe the floor if it were just two or three at once. The only Lords I can see actually joining forces to beat up on Asmodeus would be Lilith and Mephistopheles, Baal has other things on his mind, Dispater is a coward who would never try it, no one trusts Mammon or Leviathan, and Belial and Beelzebub would be working against Lilith and Mephisto.

....


Yeah. Wonder why that is? Why they can't work together, even in pursuit of a common goal, because any possible trust has been shattered?

Yeah, I actually realized that after I left work. But then I thought of Asmodeus' Ruby Rod.

But going back to what you said earlier about all of the Lords getting triple hit points in Hell, even the Ruby Rod might not be enough. Then again it could very well be. But I guess it doesn't actually matter, since it'll never happen.

What relationship, if any, does Ardat the Unavowed have with Pazuzu? Any other flavor on Ardat would be nice too.