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KingCrazyGenius wrote:What relationship, if any, does Ardat the Unavowed have with Pazuzu? Any other flavor on Ardat would be nice too.

She was mentioned in Baphomet's Demonomicon entry as the mother of harpies who was betrayed by the Demon Prince of Beasts. She was slightly further detailed in the last issue of Dragon are courting Pazuzu in order to possibly wreck vengeance on Baphomet. This quest for revenge is pretty much all she's based on, she's one of the more minor demon lords.


For AW, I expect that she also has enmity with the fey, and clashes with them regularly. Neither the Seelie nor Unseelie as a whole would be enamored of a demon lord. Some evil fey may hold her in esteem however. She wouldn't be too often opposing either devils or celestial forces, simply because she's too minor to take on something that big. She's more the type to clash within The Abyss or on the Mortal Coil if she got the chance.

It’s been a couple of months that I’m lurking in this thread, with very scarce time to develop a more in-deep analysis of the work done. The scope and size of the work is staggering; at first look, it seems the ideal combination of power between the anemic fiend lords developed by WoTC and the sometimes too powerful figures presented in other DF material.

So I took some time to focus on a particular topic of your work (namely, demons). I copied the demon lords I’m more familiar with, I pasted on a word file and now I have my small “Booklet of demons” which is good to have… until HoA will come out. I carried the booklet with me in my last airplane trip, and now I have a bunch of observations and comments.

First I have some general comments, then I have some comments on the single demonic entities.
General notes:
1) Against which gods is the power level of your unique demons assessed? Against the ones we have in the DF boards, or are you developing a group of alternate world gods?
2) Is there any general rule you use in assessing demon lords and princes special abilities? Ex, Apollyon has 3 Supernatural, 4 Extraordinary and 1 Spell like abilities (tot 8), Dagon rahab 7, Demogorgon 6 (and also dual action and gaze attack), Graz’zt 3 plus prince of shadows … in short, is there any pattern or you just grant a unique demon the abilities you think he should have?
3) Is there any rule governing the ascension of a demon to an unique form? Take for example the spell-like abilities. If we take a couple of demon lords as confronted with the ones of your Balor, we have:
Balor: Always active-- tongues, true seeing; at will— blasphemy (DC 25), deeper darkness, desecrate, detect good, detect law, dominate monster (DC 27), fear (DC 22), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), insanity (DC 25), power word stun, pyrotechnics, read magic, symbol (all, DC 26), suggestion (DC 20), telekinesis (DC 24), unhallow, unholy aura, unholy blight (DC 22), wall of fire; 1/day—fire storm (DC 25), implosion (DC 27). Caster level 20th
Juiblex: Always active-- unholy aura (DC 26); at will-astral projection, blasphemy (DC 25), desecrate, greater dispel magic, greater teleport, hold monster (DC 23), invisibility, telekinesis (DC 23), touch of Juiblex (DC 31), unhallow, unholy blight (DC 22), utterdark; 6/day- befoul (DC 24), despoil (DC 25), phase door, symbol of insanity (DC 26). Caster level 30th
Kostchtchie: Alwaays active– true seeing; at will – astral projection, blasphemy, cone of cold (DC 23), desecrate, detect good, detect law, greater dispel magic, greater teleport, ice storm, poison (DC 22), telekinesis (DC 23), unhallow, unholy aura (DC 26), unholy blight (DC 22), wind walk; 6/day – harm (DC 24), polar ray, symbol of weakness (DC 25) Caster level 30th

It seems that there are a few substitutions and, apart from the caster level, some powerful spells which go from 1/day to 6/day. The impression is that the Balor has more powerful spell-like abilities that the demon lords (like the unlimited use of any symbols, which the demon lords don’t have); of course the Unique demon is stronger since he has special attacks and more physical leverage.
In short, while assessing spell-like abilities of unique demons did you “start” from spell-like abilities of common demons, sacrifying some of those for more powerful attacks/special abilities along a “demonic ascension” pattern, like the one we have in HoA templates, or you just gave unique demons the spell-like abilities you feel they should have?

Now for comments on single demons:

Demogorgon: maybe you should include (like in your Asmodeus) an higher CR for Demogorgon in the Gaping Maw. I have the feeling that his CR is higher than 50, in particular given his “call demons” ability since he can fill the hall with demons in a very short time (by using two actions he may call 6d10 balors every round). From the power he has in the gaping maw and his cosmic rank check, it looks like you share Serge’s “uniqueness” of Demo’s background and cosmic role as respect to all the other demons. Finally, I noticed you excluded any Demo’s connections with tentacled beings like Krakens or octopus or the stupid manta-thing with the impossible name.

Fraz Urb’luu: IMO his rank check bonus to summon cosmic entities is too high. A +14 means that he has a decisive advantage to force any demon (with demo’s exclusion) to appear, including Graz’zt while in shadows. With this power he can dispatch other demon lords by arranging magic traps and summon them there.... By now he would be the only demon lord alive together with Demo.

Orcus: his negative energy burst has no save? If every round he can deal 5d4 negative levels in a 30 foot radius with no save, his CR should be higher. On the other hand, the death power of his fabled wand seems kind of lame. Also, it seems strange he doesn’t have any Cosmic entity bonus to rank check, considering that even low-power demon beings like Yeenoghu have it.


Finally, I love a lot of things on your demon take. Like Graz’zt warlock’s powers, Apollyon might, Kostchtchie frigid breath, Dagon maddening call....
Truly excellent work.

Next thing I will create from your thread the Booklet of Hell.

Concerning Demogorgon: At level 50, the only thing the balors are going to provide is a minor distraction for the PCs. They have virtually no chance to hit the PCs or successfully defend themselves against any of their attacks. Sides, Demogorgon isn't some pathetic devil who starts out every fight by putting a bunch of minions between himself and the fools who challenge him. My idea for his opening move was always to use an intensified time stop, followed by a series of violated intensified corrupt delayed fireball blasts cast in the PCs area and timed so that they would all go off as soon as the time stop effect ended. From there he fascinates or puts to sleep the survivors with his gaze attack as he considers whether to destroy them outright, turn them into horrific monsters to use against his foes, or simply have them tortured for his amusement whilst pondering a thousand far more vile options.

Concerning Fraz Urb'luu: If going by the RAW, he doesn't get his rank check bonus when forcing a call demon effect, only when summoning them. And what magical traps could he create that are really going to threaten a rival demon prince? Especially a demon prince who can greater teleport away at whim. Sides, Frazzy doesn't seem intelligent enough to successfully pull off such a stunt; he's likely tried before with disasterous results and just ended up with one more foe that before. On the other hand, I'm comfortable with the idea that countless thousands of minor demon lords have spawned only to be destroyed by Frazzy or one of the other princes.

Concerning Orcus: If the PCs attack Orcus with no means of defending themselves against negative energy, such as a deathward spell or a magic item or class ability that provides the same function, they deserve to die horribly.

PAOLO wrote:1) Against which gods is the power level of your unique demons assessed? Against the ones we have in the DF boards, or are you developing a group of alternate world gods?

AW has its own gods. As of right now, they are build with gestalt rules plus rank. Their HD is roughly equal to 25 + rank. This is not a hard and fast rule, Corellon has 50HD (as would Zeus and Odin) despite being DvR 19. It can also be modified for racial HD (as Iuz) or previously existing HD (as with Zagig)

2) Is there any general rule you use in assessing demon lords and princes special abilities? Ex, Apollyon has 3 Supernatural, 4 Extraordinary and 1 Spell like abilities (tot 8), Dagon rahab 7, Demogorgon 6 (and also dual action and gaze attack), Graz’zt 3 plus prince of shadows … in short, is there any pattern or you just grant a unique demon the abilities you think he should have?

The last. There need be no pattern. A rogue has more special abilities than a wizard or a fighter....and that is from PC classes designed to balance with each other. Different demon lords need different abilities. Constraining myself to a formula only forces me to add needless abilities to some and cut or combine important powers for others.

3) Is there any rule governing the ascension of a demon to an unique form? Take for example the spell-like abilities. If we take a couple of demon lords as confronted with the ones of your Balor, we have:
Balor: Always active-- tongues, true seeing; at will— blasphemy (DC 25), deeper darkness, desecrate, detect good, detect law, dominate monster (DC 27), fear (DC 22), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), insanity (DC 25), power word stun, pyrotechnics, read magic, symbol (all, DC 26), suggestion (DC 20), telekinesis (DC 24), unhallow, unholy aura, unholy blight (DC 22), wall of fire; 1/day—fire storm (DC 25), implosion (DC 27). Caster level 20th
Juiblex: Always active-- unholy aura (DC 26); at will-astral projection, blasphemy (DC 25), desecrate, greater dispel magic, greater teleport, hold monster (DC 23), invisibility, telekinesis (DC 23), touch of Juiblex (DC 31), unhallow, unholy blight (DC 22), utterdark; 6/day- befoul (DC 24), despoil (DC 25), phase door, symbol of insanity (DC 26). Caster level 30th
Kostchtchie: Alwaays active– true seeing; at will – astral projection, blasphemy, cone of cold (DC 23), desecrate, detect good, detect law, greater dispel magic, greater teleport, ice storm, poison (DC 22), telekinesis (DC 23), unhallow, unholy aura (DC 26), unholy blight (DC 22), wind walk; 6/day – harm (DC 24), polar ray, symbol of weakness (DC 25) Caster level 30th

It seems that there are a few substitutions and, apart from the caster level, some powerful spells which go from 1/day to 6/day. The impression is that the Balor has more powerful spell-like abilities that the demon lords (like the unlimited use of any symbols, which the demon lords don’t have); of course the Unique demon is stronger since he has special attacks and more physical leverage.
In short, while assessing spell-like abilities of unique demons did you “start” from spell-like abilities of common demons, sacrifying some of those for more powerful attacks/special abilities along a “demonic ascension” pattern, like the one we have in HoA templates, or you just gave unique demons the spell-like abilities you feel they should have?

Actually, some demon lords (the ones I built longer ago) will tend to have more SLAs than the newer ones. I've since tried to slim down SLA lists without crippling the demon lord in question. But ultimately, yes, it is the SLAs I think they need/should have.

Now for comments on single demons:

Demogorgon: maybe you should include (like in your Asmodeus) an higher CR for Demogorgon in the Gaping Maw. I have the feeling that his CR is higher than 50, in particular given his “call demons” ability since he can fill the hall with demons in a very short time (by using two actions he may call 6d10 balors every round). From the power he has in the gaping maw and his cosmic rank check, it looks like you share Serge’s “uniqueness” of Demo’s background and cosmic role as respect to all the other demons.

Well, if you've read my demon flavor on the other thread, you'll know my version of the history of The Abyss. However...I'm pretty sure Asmodeus has a wrong CR. There is no way he goes from 50 to 66 without boosting his attacks, defenses and all the stuff other than his HP. I just always wanted a CR 66 on Asmodeus and since CR is worth about as much as the U.S. dollar is these days, by G-D I put one on him.

More HP means it is a longer battle for the PCs, but given the fact that he's no harder to hit, deal damage to, avoid attacks from, etc....it might increase the CR by 2.

As for calling, called creatures are counted for CR purposes. Summoned creatures are not.

Finally, I noticed you excluded any Demo’s connections with tentacled beings like Krakens or octopus or the stupid manta-thing with the impossible name.

Ixitxachitls. And no, I haven't excluded them. What makes you think that?

Fraz Urb’luu: IMO his rank check bonus to summon cosmic entities is too high. A +14 means that he has a decisive advantage to force any demon (with demo’s exclusion) to appear, including Graz’zt while in shadows. With this power he can dispatch other demon lords by arranging magic traps and summon them there.... By now he would be the only demon lord alive together with Demo.

Well, first off, Fraz has been known, in canon to summon Demogorgon. And other powerful demon lords. As I have written the ability, he does not gain a +14 bonus to force them, he gains a +14 bonus to summon them if they are deceived. I'm...not actually sure if that was intentional though. I believe that the opposite was intended, since if the demon fails the Will save, there isn't going to be any rank check needed.

As for magical traps, let's be absolutely clear here. I do not stat my entities based on what could happen if Manny Metagamer was running it as a character. I stat them based on the things they do and give them appropriate tools with which to do it. Fraz is specifically known to summon demon princes and get the Hell out of Dodge before/as they show up. It amuses him to do so. If Iggwilv had this ability, she would no doubt use it in a very different manner. She doesn't, and as such, I'm not concerned with the matter.

Orcus: his negative energy burst has no save? If every round he can deal 5d4 negative levels in a 30 foot radius with no save, his CR should be higher. On the other hand, the death power of his fabled wand seems kind of lame. Also, it seems strange he doesn’t have any Cosmic entity bonus to rank check, considering that even low-power demon beings like Yeenoghu have it.

Both the lack of a save and cosmic bonus are an oversight, honestly. I'll get around to fixing it, but the save should be Will half and his cosmic rank bonus would be around or slightly higher than Graz'zt's, with a massive bonus when dealing with undead and negative energy.

And KCG is right, those that don't fight Orcus with deathward deserve to die horrifically. What do you find lame about the power of the Wand?

Finally, I love a lot of things on your demon take. Like Graz’zt warlock’s powers, Apollyon might, Kostchtchie frigid breath, Dagon maddening call....
Truly excellent work.

While some of them are my design, others have been taken wholesale or heavily adapted from the excellent work of Erik Mona and James Jacobs, with the Demonomicon articles. I can assure you that Dagon's powers probably all proceed from that venue, simply increased for the enhanced power I gave him. Kostchchie may also fall under that. Graz'zt and Apollyon are definitely all mine though.

Next thing I will create from your thread the Booklet of Hell.

Looking forward to it...no doubt you'll note more oversights that I have let slip into the stats.

You had Orcus' rank posted in your original version of AW Orcus. It was +6 with an additional +10 bonus when dealing with undead, which unless Orcus regularly faces undead gods and cosmics is basically meaningless. Also his being assassinated previously by that drow goddess would indicate that his rank checks against her didn't go very well.

I would consider making it a +10 bonus when dealing with undead, negative energy, and necromantic effects, though that might make him more potent than you really want.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:You had Orcus' rank posted in your original version of AW Orcus. It was +6 with an additional +10 bonus when dealing with undead, which unless Orcus regularly faces undead gods and cosmics is basically meaningless. Also his being assassinated previously by that drow goddess would indicate that his rank checks against her didn't go very well.

True. Although Orcus then and Orcus now need not be the same. Fraz ur'Blu was imprisoned when he rolled a natural 1 on a Will save, so why couldn't Orcus fail a rank check that laid him low?

I would consider making it a +10 bonus when dealing with undead, negative energy, and necromantic effects, though that might make him more potent than you really want.

Well, I do believe that I said to include negative energy and undead, what sort of necromantic effects don't use positive (and are inappropriate for him) or negative (and are already covered) energy?

I don't know of any Necromancy spells that use neither positive or negative energy off the top of my head, but I figured you'd want all the bases covered.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:I don't know of any Necromancy spells that use neither positive or negative energy off the top of my head, but I figured you'd want all the bases covered.

What about the reverse then? +10 when dealing with necromancy?

Covers undead, energy drain, negative energy, etc..

Well, as long as you and I know what it entails then I don't see any problems.

Kain I am still somewhat new to all of this but I was wondering, will you eventually add a bit of the fluff for each unique entity that you have stats for?

Custom_Hobby wrote:Kain I am still somewhat new to all of this but I was wondering, will you eventually add a bit of the fluff for each unique entity that you have stats for?

I'd really like to second this. Kain, I dig your work and I find the Alternate World builds to be superb. However, even with a wide experience of D/D knowledge and some of Dicefreaks Cosmology, I still don't know a good many of your creations. Knowing what they're about would be explicitly useful.

Ixitxachitls. And no, I haven't excluded them. What makes you think that?

well, usually this connection is revealed by the ability to summon them... but is the actual stats, there's no sign of it

What do you find lame about the power of the Wand?

the soul drinking power is good, but the death touch not very much given is 20 HD cap. Something like "Any creature without the (divine) or (cosmic) descriptor struck by the wand (or touching it in any fashion) must make a Fortitude save (DC 38) or die" would better represent the death power of his fabled bony rod

A technical detail: Dagon has is summoning acquatic creatures which includes demons as well. In the other builds, you splitted the summon demons ability and the ability to summon creatures the demon is assiciated with, so maybe you should have "summon demons" (wastriliths,...) amd "summon acquatic creatures" (krakens,...)

I love Dagon rahab. His eerie doomsong may be the seed of the canonical, lovecraftian-like adventures (you know, the dark and cold sea, the small city town, the fog arising, people disappearing or going mad...)

Quick, gimme a bunch of players!!!!!

Fafnir300 wrote:

WarDragon wrote:Might this picture do for Michael?

http://www.elfwood.com/art/t/u/tumulty/angel.jpg.html

He already has one and it is awesome.

I'm inclined to agree with Fafnir in this case, WD. Phaedros got me a pretty stellar pic of Michael, and....I think it is the better of the two, given the choice.

Custom_Hobby wrote:Kain I am still somewhat new to all of this but I was wondering, will you eventually add a bit of the fluff for each unique entity that you have stats for?

Ryu Hayabusa wrote:

Custom_Hobby wrote:Kain I am still somewhat new to all of this but I was wondering, will you eventually add a bit of the fluff for each unique entity that you have stats for?

I'd really like to second this. Kain, I dig your work and I find the Alternate World builds to be superb. However, even with a wide experience of D/D knowledge and some of Dicefreaks Cosmology, I still don't know a good many of your creations. Knowing what they're about would be explicitly useful.

Well guys, I appreciate your enthusiasm for the material. However, including flavor for even 'some' of these entries would simply be too much work that I don't have time and don't get paid for. Especially given that AW Elminster has identical flavor to FR Elminster, and many entities fall into that category. What little flavor I have written that is polished enough to include has been posted in my AW flavor thread.

However, I realize some of these entities have no other world counterparts, as they are unique to me. Nexus the Devourer, for example. A long time ago, I offered folks the opportunity to write up a flavor text block for some of the truly unique entities, such as Nexus. That offer is still open. If you see someone you would like to write about, let me know and I'll give you what fragments of flavor float around in my head for the character. You can take that and run with it as you desire.

PAOLO wrote:

Ixitxachitls. And no, I haven't excluded them. What makes you think that?

well, usually this connection is revealed by the ability to summon them... but is the actual stats, there's no sign of it

Well, the statblock isn't the sum of a creature's existence. No version of Demogorgon throughout DnD has been capable of summoning ixitxachitls, and I've seen 4 of them so far. His connection to them need not entail summoning. However, in AW, you can rest assured that ixitxachitls worship the mighty Prince of Demons, and sometime in the future, there may be stats for a unique servitor of Demogorgon of that race.

Kain wrote: What do you find lame about the power of the Wand?

the soul drinking power is good, but the death touch not very much given is 20 HD cap. Something like "Any creature without the (divine) or (cosmic) descriptor struck by the wand (or touching it in any fashion) must make a Fortitude save (DC 38) or die" would better represent the death power of his fabled bony rod.

I felt that epic characters should be capable of wielding the rod without undue concern. That was the main reasoning for that cap. The death is meant to be an issue for lesser beings, not those that would encounter Orcus.

A technical detail: Dagon has is summoning acquatic creatures which includes demons as well. In the other builds, you splitted the summon demons ability and the ability to summon creatures the demon is assiciated with, so maybe you should have "summon demons" (wastriliths,...) amd "summon acquatic creatures" (krakens,...)

Yes, but it includes aquatic demons, thus they are fair game for being listed in the same place.

I love Dagon rahab. His eerie doomsong may be the seed of the canonical, lovecraftian-like adventures (you know, the dark and cold sea, the small city town, the fog arising, people disappearing or going mad...)

Quick, gimme a bunch of players!!!!!

Yes. Just keep in mind, you should be on paizo.com singing your praise, as he is really just an advanced version of their own build for Dagon. I don't believe I did very much if anything other than higher HD and ability scores to that build, and know for a fact that Doomsong wasn't my idea.

Who or what are Garag and the Cannibal?

Phaedros wrote:Who or what are Garag and the Cannibal?

Fiendish ape servants of Demogorgon. They are a mated pair and Garag leads the hurrotch (see non unique entities) for a trogdolyte tribe who serves Ahmon-Ibor.

Their original stats were awakened, but my apes are naturally more intelligent than that, so I didn't bother with it.

Has anyone volunteered to add short fluff sections to each one. There are so many I am lost on at the moment.

Custom_Hobby wrote:Has anyone volunteered to add short fluff sections to each one. There are so many I am lost on at the moment.

The overwhelming majority of the things posted here already have fluff elsewhere. As for the rest of them, fluff will be written as soon as a volunteer steps us. So to answer your question, no; no one has volunteered yet.

What does The Guardian guard?

WarDragon wrote:What does The Guardian guard?

The Guardian of the Gates is located in the Grand Abyss. Mentioned in the Fiend Folio. I haven't fully thought out his role.

I'd assume he bites things and builds walls out of spines.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:I'd assume he bites things and builds walls out of spines.

There is most likely something terrible at the bottom of the Grand Abyss that should not be wakened. The Guardian may prevent it from being disturbed. Or perhaps, the Guardian feeds it, hoping to waken it sooner. Finally, as the Grand Abyss provides a wealth of portals to other layers, it might be that the Guardian is paid by various demon lords to keep certain portals free of most travel.

While ensuring other portals get plenty of visitation.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:While ensuring other portals get plenty of visitation.

I really think its the kind of demon that isn't too keen on 'elaborate plans' I suspect if Lolth said to let visitors pass unmolested through a certain portal and Graz'zt said to slaughter all of them, he'd take both payments and adhere to the option that let him slaughter the most sentient beings.

The Guardian looks awesome Kain. I always had an idea for an encounter involving the PC's plummeting down the Grand Abyss dodging bridges and assorted demons while being pursued by the Guardian. The idea was to retrieve a golden spelljammer from the chaos-magma pool it rested in and pilot it back to the surface without getting eaten by the impossibly ancient dragon that slept in the fire pit. Now I can put that vision in to action.