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Kain Darkwind wrote:As for me killing Wintermute's party, that's just because he sucks at playing. A 150th level party, assuming my CR is correct, would defeat Ao with 20% of their resources expended. Wintermute however was suggesting that the challenge rating was lower than posted. I was inviting him to see that it most certainly was not.

Wait, what? This fight never actually happened, unless I am missing something. Also you have yet to show me exactly why Ao can hold that incredibly high challenge rating of his. From my view, he's got AC and saves that are way too low, and his attacks aren't much better. He's never gonna hit and the PCs are never gonna miss him. If you know something I don't that makes up for this, by all means, share it.

So what do 150th level PCs look like?

KingCrazyGenius wrote:So what do 150th level PCs look like?

I'm at work now, so I can't post my character from the game I ran, but from what I recall things went about like so: AC anywhere from the 200s-300s, saves in the hundreds, attack bonuses around 300+, and damage generally around 100-200 per hit, with something like 10-20 attacks per round (this is in general from all the entires, not just mine). That used UKs material, but there was also no spellcasting involved and UKs wealth system. I expect more "standard" PCs of that level to be significantly more powerful.

Alright, but keep in mind that Alternate World has certain rules that standard D&D does not. Its rule on how much benefit you can get from enhancement bonuses probably being a big one. He's also barring you from monstrous races and templates, and if I recall correctly Amidah had things like a weretiger and a hyper-cheese pixie.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:Alright, but keep in mind that Alternate World has certain rules that standard D&D does not. Its rule on how much benefit you can get from enhancement bonuses probably being a big one. He's also barring you from monstrous races and templates, and if I recall correctly Amidah had things like a weretiger and a hyper-cheese pixie.

Those caps aren't gonna come into effect, I think. Also, the character with the highest AC (Phantom Llama's) and the highest attack bonus (mine) were both regular old humans.

Wintermute wrote:Also you have yet to show me exactly why Ao can hold that incredibly high challenge rating of his.

Nor shall I bother. I will squash you like a bug once you take your time to build your 150th level PCs. I didn't run my big mouth about how your creation is unable to hold down a CR. You did. Thus it shall fall on you to make good on your claim. Not me.

I'm not going to take my precious time to throw out scenarios which you will dissect with the time afforded by the internet to devise counter measures, look up rules, craft epic spells designed to put you just far enough above his abilities without wasting your resources, etc. You challenged, you do the work. I'll sit here, with my already built overgod, and wait to crush you. I'm entirely uninterested in the theoretical aspects of his challenge and only in the practical.

Kain Darkwind wrote:Nor shall I bother. I will squash you like a bug once you take your time to build your 150th level PCs. I didn't run my big mouth about how your creation is unable to hold down a CR. You did. Thus it shall fall on you to make good on your claim. Not me.

Well, I could do one of two things here. I could spend eleven thousand hours putting together this party and turn this into a big production (I won't). Or, I could trundle my Amidah character in here and point out that all his relevant stats are something like 100-200 points higher then Aos (I could). Here is how the fight would go: Ao automatically gets to go first, so he does (so does my guy, but I'll be nice). Now, either he a) pulls some tactic I don't know about out and crushes my guy instantly or b) flails ineffectually with his sissy attacks that won't hit and/or summons some gods that are even worse then he is. Now my guy goes. He hits Ao with 60 attacks that all auto-hit, even after Power Attacking for full and Ao takes like 30,000 damage and dies (this number is not an exaggeration).

I'm not going to take my precious time to throw out scenarios which you will dissect with the time afforded by the internet to devise counter measures, look up rules, craft epic spells designed to put you just far enough above his abilities without wasting your resources, etc. You challenged, you do the work. I'll sit here, with my already built overgod, and wait to crush you. I'm entirely uninterested in the theoretical aspects of his challenge and only in the practical.

Or you could just answer the simple question I put forward. What does he get to make up for the fact that all his numerical stats are woefully low for that level? I am at least as uninterested in turning this into a giant theoretical debate as you are.

Not that it makes a difference, but AW has mostly adopted Pathfinder as its rules, so you have no choice but to fully power attack.

Wintermute wrote:Or you could just answer the simple question I put forward. What does he get to make up for the fact that all his numerical stats are woefully low for that level? I am at least as uninterested in turning this into a giant theoretical debate as you are.

The fact that he is designed to take on characters build with the Pathfinder ruleset (plus nonsuperseded 3.5 material), operating under the AW restrictions. Not some UK spawned god-monster party.

On the other hand, Alter Reality would likely make short work of your Amidah character, regardless of its impressive numbers.

Kain Darkwind wrote:The fact that he is designed to take on characters build with the Pathfinder ruleset (plus nonsuperseded 3.5 material), operating under the AW restrictions. Not some UK spawned god-monster party.

Well, in retrospect, my character was pretty crappy, make of that what you will.

On the other hand, Alter Reality would likely make short work of your Amidah character, regardless of its impressive numbers.

Uh, ok. How?

Wintermute wrote:

Kain Darkwind wrote:The fact that he is designed to take on characters build with the Pathfinder ruleset (plus nonsuperseded 3.5 material), operating under the AW restrictions. Not some UK spawned god-monster party.

Well, in retrospect, my character was pretty crappy, make of that what you will.

I doubt the build was legal under my rules. KCG cites the most obvious method, the enhancement bonuses. A 150th level human, before feats, could have a 62 in a single ability score, which would leave him with a max possible of 23 in all other scores. That means he could benefit from a +26 enhancement bonus (on his high stat) or a +6 enhancement bonus on his low ones. Also, no divinity, no ECL races, templates, nothing, other than your Pathfinder player races plus 150 levels.

On the other hand, Alter Reality would likely make short work of your Amidah character, regardless of its impressive numbers.

Uh, ok. How?

Don't really know since I haven't seen the character, nor am I going to figure it out, even if you post it. At least, not any time soon. The entire question doesn't interest me in the slightest. You can study the two if you'd like, since you have access to both stats. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Kain Darkwind wrote:Don't really know since I haven't seen the character, nor am I going to figure it out, even if you post it. At least, not any time soon. The entire question doesn't interest me in the slightest. You can study the two if you'd like, since you have access to both stats. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

I already looked and couldn't figure it out. That is why I asked. Alter Reality is nice, but a single 59th level spell per round is not some sort of instant win button.

Wintermute wrote:

Kain Darkwind wrote:Don't really know since I haven't seen the character, nor am I going to figure it out, even if you post it. At least, not any time soon. The entire question doesn't interest me in the slightest. You can study the two if you'd like, since you have access to both stats. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

I already looked and couldn't figure it out. That is why I asked. Alter Reality is nice, but a single 59th level spell per round is not some sort of instant win button.

No it isn't. Guess we'll never know...anytime soon at least.

Kain Darkwind wrote:No it isn't. Guess we'll never know...anytime soon at least.

Well that was a productive discussion.

Wintermute wrote:

Kain Darkwind wrote:No it isn't. Guess we'll never know...anytime soon at least.

Well that was a productive discussion.

Yes, you've begun many unproductive things here at DF, but we won't hold it against you. Some people learn slower than others.

Glad I've never fallen into such a trap. Every one of my 3000 or so posts is pure gold.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:Glad I've never fallen into such a trap. Every one of my 3000 or so posts is pure gold.

that is SO not true:
several of your posts have been pure platinum, many have been chocolately and i seem to recall several that were pure marshmellow.

Kain Darkwind wrote:

On the other hand, Alter Reality would likely make short work of your Amidah character, regardless of its impressive numbers.

Uh, ok. How?

Don't really know since I haven't seen the character, nor am I going to figure it out, even if you post it. At least, not any time soon. The entire question doesn't interest me in the slightest. You can study the two if you'd like, since you have access to both stats. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

For starters, I bet a few undispellable 59th level spells could really shore up those defenses you were complaining about.

WarDragon wrote:For starters, I bet a few undispellable 59th level spells could really shore up those defenses you were complaining about.

So Ao can hold his CR because he is assumed to be buffed to the gills on Alter Reality-ed spells whenever he wants? Fair 'nuff.

Wintermute wrote:

WarDragon wrote:For starters, I bet a few undispellable 59th level spells could really shore up those defenses you were complaining about.

So Ao can hold his CR because he is assumed to be buffed to the gills on Alter Reality-ed spells whenever he wants? Fair 'nuff.

That's definitely one possibility. Not sure how high you could pump saves, AC, attacks and ability scores with a 59th level spell, but I imagine it might look more like what you expect a 150th level character to be capable of defeating rather than an 80th level character.

in case i ever suffer a bout of extreme insanity and boredom and want to attempt this challenge(unless its for WM only) could i get complete rules for making the combatants?

Evilmonkeygod wrote:in case i ever suffer a bout of extreme insanity and boredom and want to attempt this challenge(unless its for WM only) could i get complete rules for making the combatants?

Already given. You know the rules I've got for Pathfinder? Same thing, except you get a 150th level character instead of a 1st level one. And you can use WotC 3.5 classes, feats and magic items. Knock yourself out.