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There is no way Ao is CR 150, but it's not like CR is actually meaningful at that level, so whatever.

Wintermute wrote:There is no way Ao is CR 150, but it's not like CR is actually meaningful at that level, so whatever.

Go ahead and bet. Twenty bucks says I murder any 150th level party you can make.

Kain Darkwind wrote:Go ahead and bet. Twenty bucks says I murder any 150th level party you can make.

Really? Cause all I'm seeing is some seriously unimpressive defenses (ok, he's got decent hp), a weak divine blast, and some even weaker slams. Barring any of the auto-win SLAs he has (unless those got changed), I really think he'd get curbstomped.

Wintermute wrote:

Kain Darkwind wrote:Go ahead and bet. Twenty bucks says I murder any 150th level party you can make.

Really? Cause all I'm seeing is some seriously unimpressive defenses (ok, he's got decent hp), a weak divine blast, and some even weaker slams. Barring any of the auto-win SLAs he has (unless those got changed), I really think he'd get curbstomped.

You talkin' or walkin'?

Kain Darkwind wrote:You talkin' or walkin'?

Are you kidding? I am talking like nobody's business. There is no way I am building an entire level 150 party from scratch. Although... I know for a fact that there are a bunch of ECL 150 characters sitting around on various hard drives from my Amidah game. They all use UK's material, but still...

What's the level adjustment for 20 divine ranks?

KingCrazyGenius wrote:What's the level adjustment for 20 divine ranks?

No dice. No Monster Manual, no Deities and Demigods. Player characters, built with the PHB and other player sources. You know, the same crazy thing that the challenge rating is based on?

That doesn't even sound like a fun fight, let alone a productive one. Alternate World fails me once again.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:That doesn't even sound like a fun fight, let alone a productive one. Alternate World fails me once again.

It most certainly isn't a productive fight. The guy wiped the floor with the Faerunian pantheon. Which he can summon, incidentally. You are simply suffering the consequences for following Wintermute in his folly.

Wintermute wrote:Barring any of the auto-win SLAs he has (unless those got changed), I really think he'd get curbstomped.

Have fun with his "can't beat this unless you're an overgod" regeneration.

You don't have to kill something to defeat it. Knocking it into nonlethal damage subconsciousness is sufficient.

Probably would be real difficult when 50 gods are using wish and other various means to return him to complete health. You could go after the 50 gods, but then Ao is free to focus his destructive powers on you. And any of your ritual minions.

So first you gotta kill all the gods one by one, possibly by freeing Tharzidun and channeling his power to prevent detection. Or having him kill the gods himself.

Why must everything be so complex? You never run into these kinds of problems in video games.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:You never run into these kinds of problems in video games.

Or in 4e, for that matter

We've yet to see any deity combat stats in 4e, so we can't say that for certain yet. Although I do suspect they aren't as mechanically overwhelming as 3e deities.

Wintermute wrote:Really? Cause all I'm seeing is some seriously unimpressive defenses (ok, he's got decent hp), a weak divine blast, and some even weaker slams. Barring any of the auto-win SLAs he has (unless those got changed), I really think he'd get curbstomped.

You are missing the fact that Ao is an overdeity, and thus perceives your prejudices as irrelevant.

Wintermute wrote:

Kain Darkwind wrote:You talkin' or walkin'?

Are you kidding? I am talking like nobody's business. There is no way I am building an entire level 150 party from scratch. Although... I know for a fact that there are a bunch of ECL 150 characters sitting around on various hard drives from my Amidah game. They all use UK's material, but still...

Kain Darkwind wrote:

KingCrazyGenius wrote:What's the level adjustment for 20 divine ranks?

No dice. No Monster Manual, no Deities and Demigods. Player characters, built with the PHB and other player sources. You know, the same crazy thing that the challenge rating is based on?

An Overgod (AO): "I am as far beyond deities as they are beyond you."

Wouldn't curb stomping Amidah characters built from the IH ruleset and entities possessing DvR 20 further invalidate their arguments and strengthen yours? Insofar as this pertains to Ao himself rather than the projected CR. By virtue of being an overdeity, he'll leave nothing but mudholes in torsos and laugh uproariously as the temerity of the challengers fail to leave a mark.


Also, Ao is...I wouldn't say significantly, but decidedly stronger than the Lady of Pain. Seeing as this is intentional, what position in your cosmology does she personify, considering that she is no longer a fundamental paradigm/force of neutrality.

Also, Ao is...I wouldn't say significantly, but decidedly stronger than the Lady of Pain. Seeing as this is intentional, what position in your cosmology does she personify, considering that she is no longer a fundamental paradigm/force of neutrality.

Or rather was never one to begin with.

In either case, I'd still like to know the level adjustment for divine ranks in Alternate World even if this particular exercise doesn't allow for it. As long as we are playing in stupid broken 3e we may as well be allowed to play with all of the stupid broken mechanics.

Ashrentaia wrote:Wouldn't curb stomping Amidah characters built from the IH ruleset and entities possessing DvR 20 further invalidate their arguments and strengthen yours?

No. I have no way of determining proper LA for divine rank (this goes for your question as well, KCG) and using other systems that my builds don't account for proves nothing other than the inability of two sets of differing mechanics to work with each other in a meaningful fashion.

Ideally, a 150th level party would be able to defeat Ao with 20% of their resources expended. If that's not true, I've mis-judged the CR. However, I'm expecting that the CR should go up, not down.

Also, Ao is...I wouldn't say significantly, but decidedly stronger than the Lady of Pain. Seeing as this is intentional, what position in your cosmology does she personify, considering that she is no longer a fundamental paradigm/force of neutrality.

She embodies the same position she always has, the enigmatic ruler of Sigil.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:Or rather was never one to begin with.

Kain Darkwind wrote:She embodies the same position she always has, the enigmatic ruler of Sigil.

I seem to remember passages from the old site where Serge mentioned something like that in passing. It may or may not have been canonical.

Remaining an enigma becomes a difficult prospect and decidedly unmanageable once you are statted :p

Kain Darkwind wrote:No. I have no way of determining proper LA for divine rank (this goes for your question as well, KCG) and using other systems that my builds don't account for proves nothing other than the inability of two sets of differing mechanics to work with each other in a meaningful fashion.

Ideally, a 150th level party would be able to defeat Ao with 20% of their resources expended. If that's not true, I've mis-judged the CR. However, I'm expecting that the CR should go up, not down.

The original contention by Wintermute was that Ao was a pushover by the standards of 150th characters, able to be given a curbstomping. Your assertion was this simply wasn't true, with the illustrative example of Ao wiping the floor with the Faerunian pantheon. Ergo, if Ao > divinity, then Ao should > statistics built without access to DD and MM. Note, this relates only insofar as to Ao himself, his CR notwithstanding.

I think IH can interact meaningfully with traditional D&D rules. It has been done successfully in the past, c.f Phaedros, mercucio's works for examples.

I'm suspecting Ao's CR should go up, decidedly higher by a fair amount, what with being an overdeity and all. Which leads me to ask, will we seeing the rules on how to design overdeities any time soon-ish?.

Alternate World comes with its own flavor. It is not subject to anything that Dicefreaks decides on.

Ashrentaia wrote:I seem to remember passages from the old site where Serge mentioned something like that in passing. It may or may not have been canonical.

What is canon for Dicefreaks may be changed in Alternate World.

Remaining an enigma becomes a difficult prospect and decidedly unmanageable once you are statted :p

And yet, you have questions.

The original contention by Wintermute was that Ao was a pushover by the standards of 150th characters, able to be given a curbstomping. Your assertion was this simply wasn't true, with the illustrative example of Ao wiping the floor with the Faerunian pantheon. Ergo, if Ao > divinity, then Ao should > statistics built without access to DD and MM. Note, this relates only insofar as to Ao himself, his CR notwithstanding.

Ao wiped the floor with the Faerunian pantheon, which includes deities as powerful as 50HD with divine rank as high as 19.

A party of 150th level characters, divine rank or no, is more powerful than that. However, my unwillingness to run a sample CR playtest with deity characters is based on the fact that there is no LA that properly accounts for deityhood. Not my fear that divine ranked characters could beat him.

I think IH can interact meaningfully with traditional D&D rules. It has been done successfully in the past, c.f Phaedros, mercucio's works for examples.

And yet, the CRs and ECLs don't match up unless you are using one or the other system for both. That was UK's very first project, shifting around the CR system.

I'm suspecting Ao's CR should go up, decidedly higher by a fair amount, what with being an overdeity and all. Which leads me to ask, will we seeing the rules on how to design overdeities any time soon-ish?.

I've given some for DF "official" before. Not sure if they are still hanging around. As I stat things in AW pretty much 'how I feel', there isn't going to be as solid of guidelines here beyond what I've given for my deities. I know I used double his rank to calculate SDA stuff, and changed some feet ranges into miles, but that's about it.

Kain Darkwind wrote:What is canon for Dicefreaks may be changed in Alternate World.

Yes, the entire premise of AW is that HDs and hence CRs differ from what is offered in 'Dicefreaks official'. The canon too differs slightly. However, there remain certain consistences.

And yet, you have questions.

Yes, we must maintain appearances so as to spare Her Serenity's feelings.

Ao wiped the floor with the Faerunian pantheon, which includes deities as powerful as 50HD with divine rank as high as 19.

A party of 150th level characters, divine rank or no, is more powerful than that. However, my unwillingness to run a sample CR playtest with deity characters is based on the fact that there is no LA that properly accounts for deityhood. Not my fear that divine ranked characters could beat him.

Unless the 150th level characters can garner some form of divine or cosmic rank either via innate abilities or bestowed by artifacts, there really wouldn't be much of a contest since they are, contextually and RAW, mortals, a single deity with Divine Splendor will immediately kill them. My statement is that if Ao is able to wipe the floor with the Faerunian pantheon then a counter-argument asserting that Ao is weak and capable of being beaten into the ground by (150th level chars) is meaningless and unfounded, hence supporting/strengthening your argument of "Twenty bucks says I murder any 150th level party you can make."

I haven't mentioned anything relating to whether you wanted to playtest the CR, I haven't mentioned that we should playtest using mechanics from either rule set, or any fear you may have regarding whether divine ranked characters could beat him. Hence, why I finished my statements with "relating to Ao himself, CR notwithstanding or irrespective of CR." Ie, where LA or related derivatives wouldn't figure into the statement.

And yet, the CRs and ECLs don't match up unless you are using one or the other system for both. That was UK's very first project, shifting around the CR system.

Regardless, it would be fun to say the least of watching a fight like that.
So, you can't use a hybrid of thoughts. That's a shame.

I've given some for DF "official" before. Not sure if they are still hanging around. As I stat things in AW pretty much 'how I feel', there isn't going to be as solid of guidelines here beyond what I've given for my deities. I know I used double his rank to calculate SDA stuff, and changed some feet ranges into miles, but that's about it.

Cool.

Yes, the entire premise of AW is that HDs and hence CRs differ from what is offered in 'Dicefreaks official'. The canon too differs slightly. However, there remain certain consistences.

The entire premise of AW is simplicity + whatever Kain feels like. That HD and CR values differ between Dicefreaks Official and Alternate World is entirely incidental.

Yeah, I should have made that clearer, simplicity was to be made implicit in the sentence. AW also operates at lower HD variables than Dicefreaks official. This probably wasn't incidental.

Ashrentaia wrote:Unless the 150th level characters can garner some form of divine or cosmic rank either via innate abilities or bestowed by artifacts, there really wouldn't be much of a contest since they are, contextually and RAW, mortals, a single deity with Divine Splendor will immediately kill them. My statement is that if Ao is able to wipe the floor with the Faerunian pantheon then a counter-argument asserting that Ao is weak and capable of being beaten into the ground by (150th level chars) is meaningless and unfounded, hence supporting/strengthening your argument of "Twenty bucks says I murder any 150th level party you can make."

You are operating off some RAW that were changed years ago in the interest of common sense. There are no no-save-for-mortal abilities anymore. Not in DF, not in AW. A deity is roughly equal to a creature of its HD + rank in terms of challenge. In terms of ECL, it has access to things that no player will gain access to ever. Thus, there is no ECL for deity. You either play with all PCs deities or (far more likely) without deities. The DnD deity system was never balanced for mixed party play.

As for me killing Wintermute's party, that's just because he sucks at playing. A 150th level party, assuming my CR is correct, would defeat Ao with 20% of their resources expended. Wintermute however was suggesting that the challenge rating was lower than posted. I was inviting him to see that it most certainly was not.

Regardless, it would be fun to say the least of watching a fight like that.
So, you can't use a hybrid of thoughts. That's a shame.

You can use them, much like you can use Mutants and Masterminds in a Dungeons and Dragons game. It is meaningless for determining proper CR however, because it doesn't account for abilities along those lines. It doesn't even account for abilities granted by rank, a system that does exist within its ruleset. You can run whatever set of d20 stats (d20 modern, M&M, CoC, D&D, UK's IA, DF DCU, etc) you'd like against another, but what is CR 13 in one game may well be EL 22 in another.