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Shoddy argument at best.

I say lose the SR for everything that isn't explicitly known to have it (drow, other guys).

And yet the d20 system will invariably punish such a design paradigm.

How do you figure?

KingCrazyGenius wrote:How do you figure?

Spell resistance is as vital for game balance as armor class. Caster level is harder to artificially inflate than DCs with epic magic, so saves aren't as solid of a defense.

4e took that truth and rearranged it so that magic required attack rolls and brought sanity back to the issue, but 3e needs its SR. Often, no-save spells only allow SR in defense.

And how many no-save spells are a real threat to epic level creatures?

KingCrazyGenius wrote:And how many no-save spells are a real threat to epic level creatures?

*coughenergydraincough*

Which is all well and good until you start running into divine or cosmic enemies. Or until the DM decides to counter or undo the effect with any number of ways.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:Which is all well and good until you start running into divine or cosmic enemies. Or until the DM decides to counter or undo the effect with any number of ways.

Which applies to, oh, every spell ever.

So its usually a good idea to keep a wide variety available.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:And how many no-save spells are a real threat to epic level creatures?

On their lonesome or including metamagic?

Should I include spells that have pretty severe effects, even if the save is made?

List them all. Every one of them. Meta-magic and nasty effects and everything else. Provide sources as well.

Okay. Give me a day or two. I may have to do this in chunks.

But, off the top of my head?

Avasculate/Avascular Mass (Libris Mortis): On a failed save, you're stunned and lose half your hp. On a successful save you just lose half your hp. To ONE SPELL.

Fleshiver (Spell Compendium): Conditional. Only really dangerous if the one you're targeting has equal HD to you or less, but if they fit those criteria, they're automatically stunned. The rest they get to save against, but having your action stolen every round has got to hurt.

Shivering Touch (Frostbite): Again, conditional, but much more likely to be useful as only creatures with the cold subtype are immune. 3d6 Dexterity damage for one melee touch. On average rolls (10.5), that will completely paralyze any MM Great Wyrm. No save. Combine with metamagic to guarantee that it'll take them down, or to turn it into a reach spell.

Irresistible Dance (Player's Handbook): 1d4+1 rounds of no actions, a penalty to AC and Ref saves, and AoOs provoked every round. Ouch.

Waves of Fatigue/Waves of Exhaustion (Player's Handbook): Not as fearsome as some other spells, but consider the difference in price between a +12 to Str or Dex and a +6. That's what you just lost. Plus, it hits multiple opponents. Fun.

Word of Chaos/Dictum/Holy Word/Blasphemy and presumably Word of Balance (Player's Handbook and damned-if-I-remember): Gates of Hell had to have a houserule specifically for these spells to keep them from completely owning players. Enough said.

Polar Ray (Player's Handbook): If we're talking sheer power here. Can be modified to deal damage other than cold for as little as one level of metamagic, or less if you're using metamagic rods. Plus, the Pathfinder version tacks on a nifty 1d4 Dex damage, making your dice-increasing/maximizing metamagic even better.

Ray of Enfeeblement/Ray of Clumsiness/Ray of Stupidity (RoE is from Player's Handbook, RoC and RoS are from Spell Compendium): 1d6+5 penalty to Str, Dex, and Int respectively, which screws over melee, dex monkeys, and wizards/archivists, respectively. Again, if it doesn't seem like much, consider how big a difference the items we always talk about make. Also, since this is an ability penalty, it can't be blocked by immunity to ability damage. Admittedly, it has the weakness of never getting them below 1, but if you manage to get an opponent down to 1 Str, odds are, no matter how light their gear, they're going to be too weighed down to do anything. Further, because of their low level, they're ideal to metmagic up with Maximize and Empower (careful, kiddies! Don't try to twin these puppies: penalties from the same spell don't stack!).

Ray of Dizziness (Spell Compendium): One of my personal favorites. Target cannot take full actions: only one standard action or one move action.

Ray of Light (Spell Compendium): Blindness? Trust me. Never fun. Except when the enemy has it.

Final Rebuke (Spell Compendium): Dazed is a good thing, my friends.

Reciprocal Gyre (Spell Compendium): Useful mainly against those spellcaster types, but also against just about anyone who overuses buffs, or epic spells. 25d12 untyped damage to start? Sure, it can be halved, but it can be pumped up, too, and it's a steal at level 5.

Aboreal Transformation (Complete Mage): Enemy slowed for 1 day per level even if they succeed the save? Sign me up.

I'm sure I missed quite a few; like I said, this is off the top of my head.

Ray of Stupidity is damage, not a penalty, but otherwise Glab is spot on. I hadn't noticed that delicious 1d4 Dex drain on Polar Ray...

WarDragon wrote:Ray of Stupidity is damage, not a penalty, but otherwise Glab is spot on. I hadn't noticed that delicious 1d4 Dex drain on Polar Ray...

Thanks for catching that, WD.

And it is drain. I forgot that. Delicous indeed.

I think most of those have balance issues. Consider the fact that any NPC could use them against the PCs, who almost never have spell resistance in any appreciable amount.

I've split this off but kept it in this forum. I'll be considering the results turned up by this line of discussion should I decide to strip automatic SR from deities.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:I think most of those have balance issues. Consider the fact that any NPC could use them against the PCs, who almost never have spell resistance in any appreciable amount.

Actually, in terms of magical item costs, SR is extraordinarily cheap compared to what you have to do to keep up with other defenses for epic levels, which is what I presume we're talking about, given A. the formula is not exponential, but rather advances at a flat rate and B. doesn't have a point where that ugly x10 epic modifier to price comes into play. Usually, though, PCs, at least, as far as I can tell, tend to prefer to use defenses that are absolute, but far more costly, like constant/at will/at command mind blank, death ward, sheltered vitality, freedom of movement, energy immunity, etc.

Spell resistance is horribly priced. Really, one should be able to purchase scaling SR that ties straight to your level. SR past 32 should not be available flatrate.

Well, that's where things get a bit sticky, Kain.

If you do that for spell resistance, why not for other spell-based effects?

For instance, a caster level 5 pair of perma-haste boots cost a lot less than caster level 30 perma-haste boots.

Unless I'm misreading you. Which I get a feeling I might be.

SR needs to map to character level. If you have SR 50 and you are 30th level, that is too damn high. Nearly all 30th level challenges should have around (plus or minus 4) caster level 30.

Thus, by making SR come in the form of HD + 8 through HD + 14, you avoid allowing it to get out of hand. If my 2nd level character puts on a cloak of SR +8, he gets SR 10. If your 22nd level character puts the same cloak on, he gets SR 30. And that is equally as bad for their level for each of them.

Aaaah. I see what you're saying. That makes a lot more sense, actually.

Though, given the caster levels of some of the GoH beasties and comparing the CRs of the gods with their caster levels....

Are we going to try to fix that with the power rank revisions? (Should I split this bit off into the power rank section of 3.0?)

Glabrezubane wrote:Aaaah. I see what you're saying. That makes a lot more sense, actually.

Though, given the caster levels of some of the GoH beasties and comparing the CRs of the gods with their caster levels....

Are we going to try to fix that with the power rank revisions? (Should I split this bit off into the power rank section of 3.0?)

Yes, that is expected to have an attempt at fixing, although there is resistance to the idea. However, you are correct that it has little to do with the topic. You can feel free to bring it up on the power thread, it couldn't hurt to be discussed ahead of time.

Kain Darkwind wrote:SR needs to map to character level. If you have SR 50 and you are 30th level, that is too damn high. Nearly all 30th level challenges should have around (plus or minus 4) caster level 30.

Thus, by making SR come in the form of HD + 8 through HD + 14, you avoid allowing it to get out of hand. If my 2nd level character puts on a cloak of SR +8, he gets SR 10. If your 22nd level character puts the same cloak on, he gets SR 30. And that is equally as bad for their level for each of them.

I like that. I really, really like it.

The one problem with scaling SR on a magic item is that pricing it will be quite hard.
Also, everyone will have SR from a certain point on, not sure if that's an issue and perhaps most people already did, just pointing out the face.

Andtalath wrote:The one problem with scaling SR on a magic item is that pricing it will be quite hard.
Also, everyone will have SR from a certain point on, not sure if that's an issue and perhaps most people already did, just pointing out the face.

It would be one of the most pricy items, yes, but I think its a viable option.