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The Orcus topic brought this issue up, and I think it is fitting that it be addressed, at least somewhat.

Thanks to the Elite and Solo titles, one technically has more ways to distinguish between a creature's power than just level.

A few things need to be considered when offering fights against cosmic entities. The first is, do you want the cosmic entity to die? As a DM, this is actually important. If the fight is to be a challenging one where the PCs emerge triumphant, than a solo fight against a creature 3 levels higher is going to be what you are looking for. On the other hand, if you want a challenging fight where the PCs emerge dead, you probably want a fight against a solo creature 3 levels higher....and a few elites, normals and maybe even some minions of the appropriate level. If you want an impossible fight, either send them against the guy 8 levels too early or dispense with stats altogether. Stats in 4e are more about PC vs monster comparison than monster vs monster comparison.

Which brings up a question...if you want Graz'zt to be encountered with a wide variety of minions, should you make him Elite and higher level than if you wanted him to be encountered solo? I'm not sure at this point.

So then, what to make of the cosmos? For those currently unfamiliar with the 4e MM, the top levels of demons and devils look like so:

Pit Fiend (lv 26 elite)

Balor (lv 27 elite)

Orcus (lv 33 solo)


My suggestion is as follows.


Demogorgon (37 s)
Dagon (36 s)
Apollyon (36 s)
Orcus (35 S)
Grazzt (35 S)
Pazuzu (34 s)
Pale Night (34 s)
Fraz'ur'Blu (33 s)
Zuggtmoy (32 s)
Malcanthet (31 s)
Yeenoghu (31 s)
Baphomet (31 s)
Kostichichie (30 s)
Juiblex (30 s)
Aldinach (28 s)
Mastiphal (28 s)
Illsidahur (27 s)


For the unique balors and such, I expect they will fall between levels 28 and 30, with NPC templates. With the exception of the Wings of Pazuzu, which I will try to make as level 34 minions. Were one to be encountered earlier than in a mass combat with Pazuzu, they'd most likely end up in the same range.

Given that these ranges are based on an Orcus that has been increased 2 levels (to reflect the height of his power, rather than after PCs have chipped it away), keep in mind that the 'chipped level' for many of these princes is actually 2 or 3 levels lower than the given.

I expect that any of these demon princes solo stats could be altered to those of an elite 5 levels higher, if you wanted them to take on the prince with his followers. (And still have a good fight)

If it helps at all, I recall hearing from somewhere (I don't recall exactly) that one of the designers said he envisioned the most powerful gods like Moradin at level 38, which would be basically the ceiling. I am assuming gods would be Solo monsters as well.

Looking at my list and the recent Yeenoghu stats, I see they consider him less of a match for Orcus than I do. My suggestion was 4 levels under Orcus, they chose 5.

Yes, I am aware that the most powerful gods are slated at level 38, Wintermute, which is why Demogorgon sits near there as well. This list was designed with those parameters in mind.

Does that mean that you think Moradin (or other greater deities) should be able to defeat Demogorgon in single combat, more often than not?

(I know CR doesn't equate to "who'd defeat who" in 3E, but from what I know of 4E I'm guessing that a higher-level creature would generally win against a lower-level one, provided you're comparing an elite to another elite, or a solo to another solo... correct me if I'm wrong).

Phaedros wrote:Does that mean that you think Moradin (or other greater deities) should be able to defeat Demogorgon in single combat, more often than not?

(I know CR doesn't equate to "who'd defeat who" in 3E, but from what I know of 4E I'm guessing that a higher-level creature would generally win against a lower-level one, provided you're comparing an elite to another elite, or a solo to another solo... correct me if I'm wrong).

Honestly, I don't think 4e is the best system at all for comparing one entity to another except for how they break down again the players.


Consider that Demogorgon alone might be a level 37 solo, but if you wanted to pit him against 45th level characters with his army, you might make him a 45th level elite. You wouldn't just use the solo build plus mooks because it wouldn't be able to adequately challenge them.

But I don't mind Demogorgon being near or on par with greater gods.

Kain Darkwind wrote:Yes, I am aware that the most powerful gods are slated at level 38, Wintermute, which is why Demogorgon sits near there as well. This list was designed with those parameters in mind.

Good, good. I'd say it looks like a pretty good breakdown, then. Putting the most powerful demon right under the most powerful god seems about right to me.

Wintermute wrote:Putting the most powerful demon right under the most powerful god seems about right to me.

That's what threw me off, since Demogorgon is (presumably) more powerful than Moradin in 3E Alternate World.

(I haven't seen an AW Moradin, but I'm assuming that based on the old stats for AW Corellon... and because Demogorgon outclasses pretty much everything else in AW save for Io and the Lady of Pain).

Phaedros wrote:

Wintermute wrote:Putting the most powerful demon right under the most powerful god seems about right to me.

That's what threw me off, since Demogorgon is (presumably) more powerful than Moradin in 3E Alternate World.

(I haven't seen an AW Moradin, but I'm assuming that based on the old stats for AW Corellon... and because Demogorgon outclasses pretty much everything else in AW save for Io and the Lady of Pain).

Solid points, and in my first draft, Demogorgon was at level 40. (And an AW Moradin would be 50HD DvR 19) But, like I said, 4e isn't very good for creature comparison, not like 3e was. I'll probably wait until Deities and Demigods comes out before moving much further in this anyways.

Exactly how much of a departure are you planning to make from the 4e cosmology? Is Alternate World 4e going be basically be 3e flavor with 4e mechanics, or some kind of melding of the two?

KingCrazyGenius wrote:Exactly how much of a departure are you planning to make from the 4e cosmology? Is Alternate World 4e going be basically be 3e flavor with 4e mechanics, or some kind of melding of the two?

Technically, no changes will be made to my cosmology. With 50 Divine Ranks, I left the doors open for other Realities within Possibility. This includes things like 4e, Rifts, WoD, etc....settings that use drastically different rules. As there is no way for creatures in one reality to move to another under their own power, the worlds are effectively separate.

Within the 4e AW, I intend on keeping full alignment (because it has no mechanical reparations) but adopting the planar structure of Points of Light entirely.

IMO, the most reasonable thing to do is really wait for god rules.
But fr the breakdown, I think you should consider the cap level 40, as the DMG only gives us info about the XP value of monsters of level 40.

So, Demogorgon should be level 40. Asmodeus should be level 39 or 40. These guys you don't want the PCs to beat.
The same applies to Orcus, Grazz't, Pazuzu, Pale Night, Apollyon and Dagon (Why is Dagon stronger than Orcus and Grazz't, anyway?). I know that if they were level 34 to 36 like you proposed, the PCs would probably be unable to beat them... But these guys should be challenges to gods.

The others, however, you do want the PCs to be able to beat (At least I do). So, they should be of level 34 and lower.
The really low ones, that are just unique demons should be Solos of levels 25 to 27. Keep in mind that a level 25 solo is more threatening than a level 27 Elite, like a balor.

Crazy Art wrote:IMO, the most reasonable thing to do is really wait for god rules.

I'm pretty sure they're in the Monster Manual.

WarDragon wrote:

Crazy Art wrote:IMO, the most reasonable thing to do is really wait for god rules.

I'm pretty sure they're in the Monster Manual.

You're pretty wrong

They'll be coming. The monster cap will likely stay at level 40, but its important to see what kind of powers gods have, before building entities that are supposed to challenge them.

Looks like we have to wait until December

More than that, I guess. Unless the 4E Manual of the Planes also comes with gods' stats.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/218937200 wrote:If you seek to stem this tide of chaos at its source, follow my lead—I set out for the dreaded Abyss on the morrow. —Lord Amgar the Bold, Paladin of Bahamut

The planes have always been a place of great mystery and danger in the Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game, and the new array of planes debuting in 4th Edition continue that grand tradition. Home to gods and devils, demons and genies, fey and titans, these strange dimensions offer unlimited adventure opportunities for Dungeon Masters and their players.

Manual of the Planes explores the many planes introduced in the 4th Edition Dungeon Master’s Guide. This useful travel guide also comes in handy for players seeking to battle demons, devils, elementals, and other iconic D&D monsters native to the planes.

Based on the description I figured there might be some mention of it in there. If not lets hope the 4E Deities And Demigods get released early next year.

Let's keep this on topic, 4e speculation has its own forum. However, as I already said, I'll be waiting on a bit more before tackling this. Definitely the print copies of the books, for one. And major work won't go through until I know if Deities and Demigods will be providing a system for them or not.

There are still 3e AW builds to keep me occupied.

Hey all!

Heres how the 4th Edition Immortals Handbook will probably cover things:

EXALTED TIER (31-40)

31-35 = Quasi-deity
36-40 = Demi-deity

IMMORTAL TIER (41-50)

41-45 = Lesser Deity
46-50 = Greater God

SIDEREAL TIER (51-60)

51-55 = Elder God/Old One
56-60 = Proto-god/First One

Elite Monsters - treat as -4 Levels
Solo Monsters - treat as -9 Levels

e.g. Orcus is a Level 42 Lesser God but when treated as a Solo monster he drops to 33rd-level.

e.g. Moradin is a Level 47 Greater God but when treated as a Solo encounter he drops to 38th-level.

Upper_Krust wrote:Elite Monsters - treat as -4 Levels
Solo Monsters - treat as -9 Levels

e.g. Orcus is a Level 42 Lesser God but when treated as a Solo monster he drops to 33rd-level.

e.g. Moradin is a Level 47 Greater God but when treated as a Solo encounter he drops to 38th-level.

This right here I like a lot. It helps establish a bit more 'standard' comparison that gets lost when dealing with Elite vs Solo vs Minion.

At what point does Orcus become a minion?

And I still think they shot too low for Yeenoghu in Dragon.

Howdy Kain!

Kain Darkwind wrote:

Upper_Krust wrote:Elite Monsters - treat as -4 Levels
Solo Monsters - treat as -9 Levels

e.g. Orcus is a Level 42 Lesser God but when treated as a Solo monster he drops to 33rd-level.

e.g. Moradin is a Level 47 Greater God but when treated as a Solo encounter he drops to 38th-level.

This right here I like a lot. It helps establish a bit more 'standard' comparison that gets lost when dealing with Elite vs Solo vs Minion.

Yes it is easy to gloss over that.

At what point does Orcus become a minion?

Orcus would be a Level 50 Minion.

Minion = Standard +8

A Balor would be a Level 39 Minion, Pit Fiend a Level 38 Minion.

And I still think they shot too low for Yeenoghu in Dragon.

Yeenoghu = Level 37 Standard, not too shabby.

Balor = 31 (Demon Lord) = Quasi-god
Yeenoghu = 37 (Demon Prince) = Demigod
Orcus = 42 (Demon Monarch) = Lesser God

I think it fits pretty well.

Upper_Krust wrote:

And I still think they shot too low for Yeenoghu in Dragon.

Yeenoghu = Level 37 Standard, not too shabby.

Balor = 31 (Demon Lord) = Quasi-god
Yeenoghu = 37 (Demon Prince) = Demigod
Orcus = 42 (Demon Monarch) = Lesser God

I think it fits pretty well.

The problem is that it shoehorns the really lesser demon lords like Juiblex into being lower solo and elite challenges than a balor. One level higher and solo than a balor means that the other demon lords will end up more powerful than Yeenoghu or less powerful than a balor. Both seem rather undesirable.