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Aabix's Devil Killer power is slightly too powerful. It shouldn't function against cosmic devils, at least not without a rank check. I don't see why a 32HD boy marilith would be able to circumvent the regeneration of Asmodeus off hand.

Now, instead of giving a rank check, he could ignore the 'good' quality in regeneration or damage reduction.


You shorted him on feats too. Should have 16.

I'm not sure (and I've been using the old bonuses myself) but I think Pathfinder lowered the bonus to Combat checks for size difference.


I'm not sure I like weapon mastery. Perhaps you could put an exception in that he can't ever use a spear to deal bludgeoning damage and that would be good.

Alright. So basically, we have an archdevil slightly less powerful than Merorem.

I was afraid that if I made him more powerful people would appear from nowhere to complain.

Is the vicious damage he inflicts on himself lethal or nonlethal due to his regeneration?

I have no idea how vicious interacts with regeneration. What's Alternate World's stand?

If he can only turn on or turn off his vicious quality once per round, it should be a swift action, not a free action.

Alright.

Faceless hate is a good disease, so is festering anger. Have you compared them to see which one fits the character best?

Nope. I might though. I'm sure I have something akin to a BoVD laying around.

Shout is a sonic effect. Deaf creatures are not immune to sonic effects. Why would he be immune to shout? I'm also not clear if his illiteracy is the cause for his immunity to sonic or not.

I'm not sure where I was going with that anymore. I'll change it.

Now, instead of giving a rank check, he could ignore the 'good' quality in regeneration or damage reduction.

I like this.

I'm not sure I like weapon mastery. Perhaps you could put an exception in that he can't ever use a spear to deal bludgeoning damage and that would be good.

Yeah, that would make it perfect.

As for the Pathfinder-specific stuff, yeah I guess I'll get around to changing it all. Real pain in the butt, though.

I'm pretty sure that I would run vicious damage as nonlethal if the creature had regeneration, unless it was 'magic' damage that caused lethal damage. That is in regard to pretty much everything, not just AW. That's how I read the ability.

Remember that he is already immune to mind-effecting effects by virtue of his cosmic status. I'm not sure how many language dependent effects aren't mind-affecting.

As for PF feats, I feel for you. I'm ending up running out of good (appropriate) feat choices with so many to choose. Which is why my brachiosaurus is whipping out Tail Specialization.

Wait, illiteracy gives you immunity to sonic effects? That's brilliant!

I think you both need a taste of my Feat Compendium. I guarantee you'll never run out of feats again.

Kain Darkwind wrote:As for PF feats, I feel for you. I'm ending up running out of good (appropriate) feat choices with so many to choose. Which is why my brachiosaurus is whipping out Tail Specialization.

That's when you start breaking out the mean stuff. A Triceratops with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack will ruin your players day pretty fast.

Wintermute wrote:

Kain Darkwind wrote:As for PF feats, I feel for you. I'm ending up running out of good (appropriate) feat choices with so many to choose. Which is why my brachiosaurus is whipping out Tail Specialization.

That's when you start breaking out the mean stuff. A Triceratops with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack will ruin your players day pretty fast.

Never mind the fact it shouldn't be able to jump at all.

And since when is Alternate World limited to just core and Pathfinder?

WarDragon wrote:And since when is Alternate World limited to just core and Pathfinder?

It isn't. I'm not having trouble finding feats, I'm having trouble finding appropriate feats. However, for plain old monsters rather than unique entities, I like sticking largely to core and possibly one source more.

The problem is that with large HD creatures, 1/2 HD feats compared to 1/3+1 HD feats is a big difference.

Levistus

An aspect of Leviathan, Levistus came into existence soon after Leviathan was given regency over Stygia. Initially little more than a puppet, Levistus allowed Leviathan to keep himself obscure while enacting his most ambitious plots. Unbeknownst to Leviathan, Levistus eventually gained a will independant from his master, though he continued to serve his Prince faithfully. It was Levistus who seduced and kidnapped Bensozia, though when Geryon betrayed them to Asmodeus, Levistus himself escaped Hell, leaving Leviathan to his fate.

Though he presents himself as a charming and honorable duelist, Levistus is every bit the traitor his former master is. He seeks to replace Leviathan and claim his schemes as his own, including the conquering of Hell and the destruction of rival devils. To this end he has set up a number of minor cults devoted to himself, though he doesn't know that Leviathan benefits from them as much as he does. Levistus' base of operations is an enormous ice berg within the Reality of Water, where he and the few creatures loyal to him plot their next move.

Levistus is said to have never lost a duel. What isn't known is that he rarely challenges anyone he thinks has even a chance at defeating him. In the occasional instance that a foe has gotten the upper hand on Levistus, he thinks nothing of cheating or simply removing everyone's memories of the fight, should there be an audience. Invariably, all fights with Levistus are to the death, a detail he rarely bothers to inform others of.

Levistus
Medium Outsider (Baatorian, Cosmic, Evil, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 37d8 + 296 (666 hp)
Initiative: +27
Speed: 60 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect), swim 120 ft.
Armor Class: 72 (+15 deflection, +15 Dex, +4 dodge, +7 insight, +11 Int, +10 natural) touch 62, flat-footed 42
Base Attack/CMB: +37/+47
Attack: Black Ice +59 melee (3d6 + 27 plus 1d6 cold /12-20/x2 and 2 Str and 2 Con) or Amnesia Touch +52 melee touch
Full Attack: Black Ice +59/+54/+49/+44 melee (3d6 + 27 plus 1d6 cold /12-20/x2 and 2 Str and 2 Con) or 2 Amnesia Touch +52 melee touch
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Amnesia touch, aura of dominion, call devils, call devils of the deep, improved flanking, insightful strike, precise strike +2d6, sneak attack +10d8, spell-like abilities, weakening critical, wounding critical
Special Qualities: Acrobatic charge, acrobatic skill mastery, blindsight 90 ft., canny defense, damage reduction 30/epic, good and silver, elaborate parry, evasion, grace, immunity to acid, cold, fire, mind-affecting, and necromancy, improved reaction +4, regeneration 20, resistance to electricity 30, slippery mind, spell resistance 42, telepathy 500 ft., uncanny dodge
Saves: Fort +34, Ref +44, Will +31
Abilities: Str 31, Dex 40, Con 31, Int 32, Wis 25, Cha 40
Skills: Acrobatics +55, Bluff +55, Diplomacy +61, Escape Artist +55, Intimidate +59, Knowledge (arcana) +31, Knowledge (history) +34, Knowledge (planes) +31, Linguistics +41, Perception +48, Sense Motive +40, Sleight Of Hand +59, Spellcraft +55, Stealth +55, Swim +58, Use Magic Device +55.
Feats: Bounding Assault, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows*, Dodge, Improved Critical (rapier), Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Levistus' Gambit, Mobility, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Rapid Blitz, Spring Attack, Swim-By Attack, Telling Blow, Weapon Finesse*, Weapon Focus (rapier)
Epic Feats: Improved Combat Reflexes, Infinite Deflection, Superior Initiative
Environment: The Reality of Water
Organization: Solitary (unique)
Challenge Rating: 30
Treasure: Triple Standard
Alignment: Lawful Evil

Amnesia Touch (Su): If Levistus makes a successful touch attack against a foe, the foe must make a Will save (DC 43) or forget all details of her past (skills are not lost, just memories). Furthermore, the target is stunned for ld4+l rounds. If the save succeeds, only the last year's worth of memories are erased and the target is stunned for 1 round A second successful Will save negates this as well. Memories lost in this way can be restored with greater restoration, miracle, or wish.

Aura of Dominion (Su): All creatures within 90 feet of Levistus must make a Will save (DC 43). Failure indicates that the victim is convinced of the absolute authority of Levistus and infused with an unholy zeal. The victim is immediately and utterly dominated by Levistus. In the absence of any orders, the victim will seek out and attack the nearest non lawful-evil entity in the area. A creature that succeeds on the saving throw is immune to Levistus aura of dominion for 24 hours.
Falling under the dominion of Levistus is permanent, but can be removed by greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle or wish. Other baatorians are immune to the aura.

Call Devils (Sp): 3/day, Levistus may summon 6 barregons or 6 xerfilstyx.

Call Devils of the Deep (Sp): 3/day, Levistus may summon 2 scyllans or fiendish krakens, or 8 of any fiendish aquatic animal.

Spell-Like Abilities: Always active – control water, detect chaos, detect good, detect thoughts (DC 27), freedom of movement, see invisibility, unholy aura (DC 33); at will – blasphemy (DC 32), cone of cold (DC 31), deeper darkness, greater dispel magic, false vision, hold monster (DC 30), ice storm, mind fog (DC 30), mislead (DC 31), scrying (DC 29), greater teleport, unholy blight (DC 29), unhallow; 3/day – screen (DC 33), true strike, wish (DC 34). Caster level 29th

Elaborate Parry (Ex): If Levistus chooses to fight defensively or use total defense in melee combat, he gains an additional +10 dodge bonus to AC.

Regeneration: Levistus takes normal damage from good aligned silver weapons and from good aligned spells.

Possessions: Levistus wields Black Ice, a +6 icy keen rapier of defending.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:Duelist: Levistus is a master of swashbuckling, and gains the following benefits:
+11 to his Dex modifier to determine his AC when not wearing armor or using a shield.
+4 bonus to Initiative checks.
+4 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity caused by moving out of a threatened square.
+5 bonus to Reflex saves when not wearing armor or using a shield.
+2 additional bonus to attack rolls against flanked opponents.
+4 additional bonus when using his Dodge feat.
+2d6+11 damage when attacking with a light or one-handed piercing weapon and not attacking with another weapon(creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this extra damage).
+10 Dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively.
Levistus can always choose to "Take 10" on Acrobatics checks.

All of this that has been repeated somewhere else, more pertinent in the statblock...I'd remove. Some of it, I'd remove anyways.

Spell-Like Abilities: Always active – control water, detect chaos, detect good, detect thoughts, freedom of movement, see invisibility; at will – blasphemy (DC 32), cone of cold (DC 31), deeper darkness, greater dispel magic, false vision, hold monster (DC 30), ice storm, mind fog (DC 30), mislead (DC 31), scrying (DC 29), greater teleport, unholy aura (DC 33), unholy blight (DC 29), unhallow; 3/day – screen (DC 33), true strike, wish (DC 34). Caster level 37th

Caster levels in AW are set to around 75-80% of HD past 30HD. Also, detect thoughts has a DC. And for most powerful entities who can cast unholy aura at will....I change it to always active and include the resistance bonus to saves.

Kain Darkwind wrote:

KingCrazyGenius wrote:Duelist: Levistus is a master of swashbuckling, and gains the following benefits:
+11 to his Dex modifier to determine his AC when not wearing armor or using a shield.
+4 bonus to Initiative checks.
+4 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity caused by moving out of a threatened square.
+5 bonus to Reflex saves when not wearing armor or using a shield.
+2 additional bonus to attack rolls against flanked opponents.
+4 additional bonus when using his Dodge feat.
+2d6+11 damage when attacking with a light or one-handed piercing weapon and not attacking with another weapon(creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this extra damage).
+10 Dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively.
Levistus can always choose to "Take 10" on Acrobatics checks.

All of this that has been repeated somewhere else, more pertinent in the statblock...I'd remove. Some of it, I'd remove anyways.

Well, guess I'll just state it all as class features in the Special Attacks and Special Qualities section. Might make that section a little more lengthy, but as long as whoever is using it knows what it all means that's ok.

Spell-Like Abilities: Always active – control water, detect chaos, detect good, detect thoughts, freedom of movement, see invisibility; at will – blasphemy (DC 32), cone of cold (DC 31), deeper darkness, greater dispel magic, false vision, hold monster (DC 30), ice storm, mind fog (DC 30), mislead (DC 31), scrying (DC 29), greater teleport, unholy aura (DC 33), unholy blight (DC 29), unhallow; 3/day – screen (DC 33), true strike, wish (DC 34). Caster level 37th

Caster levels in AW are set to around 75-80% of HD past 30HD. Also, detect thoughts has a DC. And for most powerful entities who can cast unholy aura at will....I change it to always active and include the resistance bonus to saves.

Fierana's caster level is 36th, so that was what threw me off. I'll fix this while you go fix Fierana.

Aside from all that though, it's good? Flavor doesn't blatantly contradict anything? CR seems spot on?

KingCrazyGenius wrote:Duelist: Levistus is a master of swashbuckling, and gains the following benefits:
+11 to his Dex modifier to determine his AC when not wearing armor or using a shield.
+4 bonus to Initiative checks.
+4 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity caused by moving out of a threatened square.
+5 bonus to Reflex saves when not wearing armor or using a shield.
+2 additional bonus to attack rolls against flanked opponents.
+4 additional bonus when using his Dodge feat.
+2d6+11 damage when attacking with a light or one-handed piercing weapon and not attacking with another weapon(creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this extra damage).
+10 Dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively.
Levistus can always choose to "Take 10" on Acrobatics checks.

Why does he get a bonus to his Dex modifier? What does that come from? Initiative, AC and Reflex saves can get canned. The other stuff should be either A) included here so you don't have to grab books to look it up, or B) modified from situational to constant. For instance, give him a +4 flat Dodge bonus to AC and ignore the AoO and Dodge feat powers. Keep the flanked bonus and the damage (or just put the damage up in the damage block and don't worry about the non-crit clause..remember, PF removed that clause to allow sneak attacks to work on undead.)

So, I'd list flanked bonus, dodge bonus when fighting defensively (unless he has improved combat expertise, in which case drop this) and taking 10 on Acrobatics.

Caster levels in AW are set to around 75-80% of HD past 30HD. Also, detect thoughts has a DC. And for most powerful entities who can cast unholy aura at will....I change it to always active and include the resistance bonus to saves.

Fierana's caster level is 36th, so that was what threw me off. I'll fix this while you go fix Fierana.

Aside from all that though, it's good? Flavor doesn't blatantly contradict anything? CR seems spot on?

Well, I should bring up the other factor...CR. 75-80% HD often puts you on par with your CR. That's why I lowered it from full.

Many of the older builds may still carry a high or HD = caster level number, but that is just one of hallmarks of the older design. Perhaps I'll put that on the list of things people can work on for more flavor.

Balor
Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Cosmic, Evil, Mazza’im)
Hit Dice: 40d8 + 760 (1,100 hp)
Initiative: +20
Speed: 40 ft., fly 90 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 68 (+12 Dex, +12 deflection, +11 insight, +25 natural, -2 size), touch 43, flat-footed 56
Base Attack/CMB: +40/+64
Attack: Balor's Wrath +66 melee (3d8 + 28 and 3d6 electricity /19-20/x2 and 6d6 electricity)
Full Attack: Balor's Wrath +66/+61/+56/+51 melee (3d8 + 28 and 3d6 electricity /19-20/x2 and 6d6 electricity) and Balor's Fury +66/+61/+56/+51 melee (1d6 + 17 plus 3d6 fire and entangle /x2 and 6d6 fire) and 2 wings +66 melee and gore +66 melee; or 2 slams +66 melee (3d8 + 28) and 2 wings +66 melee (4d6 + 17), and gore +66 melee (4d8 + 17 and disease)
Space/Reach: 15 ft. /15 ft.
Special Attacks: Call balor, death throes, disease, entangle, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 30/epic, cold iron and good, darkvision, flaming body, immunity to fire, electricity, and poison, resistance to acid 30 and cold 30, spell resistance 42, telepathy 500 ft.
Saves: Fort +47, Ref +42, Will +41
Abilities: Str 54, Dex 34, Con 44, Int 32, Wis 32, Cha 35
Skills: Acrobatics +54, Appraise +54, Bluff +56, Climb +65, Diplomacy +62, Intimidate +66, Knowledge (arcana) +54, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +54, Knowledge (history) +54, Knoweldge (nature) +54, Knowledge (nobility) +54, Knowledge (planes) +54, Knowledge (religion) +54, Perception +62, Sense Motive +54, Spellcraft +58, Stealth +54, Swim +65, Use Magic Device +56
Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dark Speech, Empower Spell-Like Ability(x2), Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability(x2), Widen Spell-Like Ability
Epic Feats: Epic Fortitude, Epic Reflexes, Epic Skill Focus (Intimidate), Epic Toughness, Epic Will, Superior Initiative
Climate/Terrain: The Abyss
Organization: Solitary (Unique)
Challenge Rating: 34
Treasure: Triple Standard
Alignment: Chaotic Evil

Call Balor (Sp): At will, Balor can call a balor. 6/day, Balor can call a balor with maximum hit points.

Death Throes (Ex): When killed, Balor explodes in a blinding flash of light that deals 200 points of damage to everything within 600 feet. (Reflex DC 52 half). This explosion automatically destroys any weapons Balor is holding. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Disease (Su): Demon fever, Fortitude DC 52

Entangle (Ex): Balor’s Fury entangles foes much like an attack with a net. The whip has 60 hit points. The whip needs no folding. If it hits, the target and Balor immediately make opposed Strength checks; if Balor wins, he drags the target against his flaming body (see below). The target remains anchored against Balor’s body until it escapes the whip.

Spell-Like Abilities: Always active— detect good, detect law, tongues, true seeing, unholy aura (DC 36); at will— blasphemy (DC 35), call lightning storm (DC 34) deeper darkness, desecrate, dominate monster (DC 37), fear (DC 33), greater dispel magic, greater teleport, insanity (DC 35), power word stun, pyrotechnics, read magic, symbol (all, DC 36), suggestion (DC 30), telekinesis (DC 34), unhallow, unholy blight (DC 32), wall of fire; 6/day—chain lightning (DC 34), fire storm (DC 35), implosion (DC 37), power word kill. Caster level 28th

Flaming Body (Su): The body of Balor is wreathed in flame. Anyone grappling Balor takes 6d10 points of fire damage each round.

Skills: Balor has a +8 racial bonus on Perception.

Possessions: Balor's Wrath is a +6 vorpal bastard sword of lightning blasting that captures the souls of those it beheads, as per the soul bind spell, and can hold up to six individual souls. Balor's Fury is a +6 brilliant energy whip of fiery blasting. He also wears Balor's Might, a spiked adamantine collar that provides a +6 enhancement bonus to natural attacks, a +6 profane bonus to the Save DCs of his special abilities, and renders him immune to beheading, brain extraction, and other attacks that specifically target the head.

Few things here. His ability scores ought to be those of a balor with base 18s. Off the top of my head, that would be 51, 34, 43, 32, 32, 34

Then, he gains 5 points from 20 HD of advancement. To me, all or most of them would go into Charisma. 52 Str, 34 Dex, 44 Con, 32 Int, 32 Wis, 37 Cha would be my guess.


His possessions....improve the sword to lightning blasting. Also, have it steal souls of those it beheads, like the balor blade from Arms and Equipment. I'd also make it a bastard sword instead of a longsword. I never worry about the proficiencies though, if you were concerned about the feat. High level NPCs are proficient with the weapons listed in their description unless otherwise stated, feat or no feat.

The amulet. Make this into an adamantine spiked collar. +6 enhancement bonus to natural attacks and +6 profane bonus to special attack DC (adding SLAs is redundant, they are special attacks) is fine, but have it render him immune to beheading as well. After Serge killed Balor in a single hit when I ran him against Aesmadeva (Alastor in AW), I swore that Balor would thereafter wear something to prevent such cheap attacks from dropping him again.

Do balors normally have Tongues always active? If not, I'd drop it...as a demon, his telepathy covers this.

Improved Sunder is out of alpha-order in the feat list.

Epic Skill Focus (Intimidate) is missing a capital letter.

6d6 flame goes to 8d6 if increasing by size, but why not ignore that and just go up to 6d10? It holds the CR much better.

Why Cosmic? I wasn't thinking he would be, although I'm not seeing it as an inherently bad idea.

Give him Dark Speech as a bonus feat (don't even bother to mark it, just add it in) if you can't fit it in. No cosmic or powerful demon ought to be missing it. (I'm a big fan of dropping the lengthy two weapon fighting chain on high level NPCs and just giving them the attack bonuses with their weapons as if they possessed Perfect Two-Weapon...often not even bothering with the penalty to attacks.)

Kain Darkwind wrote:Few things here. His ability scores ought to be those of a balor with base 18s. Off the top of my head, that would be 51, 34, 43, 32, 32, 34

Then, he gains 5 points from 20 HD of advancement. To me, all or most of them would go into Charisma. 52 Str, 34 Dex, 44 Con, 32 Int, 32 Wis, 37 Cha would be my guess.

Sounds alright to me, though I'm not going to up the Str any more.

His possessions....improve the sword to lightning blasting. Also, have it steal souls of those it beheads, like the balor blade from Arms and Equipment. I'd also make it a bastard sword instead of a longsword. I never worry about the proficiencies though, if you were concerned about the feat. High level NPCs are proficient with the weapons listed in their description unless otherwise stated, feat or no feat.

Done.

The amulet. Make this into an adamantine spiked collar. +6 enhancement bonus to natural attacks and +6 profane bonus to special attack DC (adding SLAs is redundant, they are special attacks) is fine, but have it render him immune to beheading as well. After Serge killed Balor in a single hit when I ran him against Aesmadeva (Alastor in AW), I swore that Balor would thereafter wear something to prevent such cheap attacks from dropping him again.

Spiked collars are always awesome on giant fiery bad guys. Less so on pasty goth kids.

Do balors normally have Tongues always active? If not, I'd drop it...as a demon, his telepathy covers this.

Yours does. Should it?

Improved Sunder is out of alpha-order in the feat list.

Fixed.

Epic Skill Focus (Intimidate) is missing a capital letter.

Fixed

6d6 flame goes to 8d6 if increasing by size, but why not ignore that and just go up to 6d10? It holds the CR much better.

Why not? Done.

Why Cosmic? I wasn't thinking he would be, although I'm not seeing it as an inherently bad idea.

As the end-all be-all of balors, I think he is the kind of demon who would end up with cosmic power. Probably not his own layer though, since he's too busy kicking ass.

Give him Dark Speech as a bonus feat (don't even bother to mark it, just add it in) if you can't fit it in. No cosmic or powerful demon ought to be missing it. (I'm a big fan of dropping the lengthy two weapon fighting chain on high level NPCs and just giving them the attack bonuses with their weapons as if they possessed Perfect Two-Weapon...often not even bothering with the penalty to attacks.)

Hmm...that would free up some feats. I'll do it.

KingCrazyGenius wrote:

Kain Darkwind wrote:Few things here. His ability scores ought to be those of a balor with base 18s. Off the top of my head, that would be 51, 34, 43, 32, 32, 34

Then, he gains 5 points from 20 HD of advancement. To me, all or most of them would go into Charisma. 52 Str, 34 Dex, 44 Con, 32 Int, 32 Wis, 37 Cha would be my guess.

Sounds alright to me, though I'm not going to up the Str any more.

Well, Alastor has 55 Str, and Baal has 52 Str. So it isn't drastically out of wack at 51. 51 Str, 34 Dex, 45 Con, 32 Int, 32 Wis, 37 Cha if you don't want to change the Cha score, or 44 Con and 38 Cha if you do.

Do balors normally have Tongues always active? If not, I'd drop it...as a demon, his telepathy covers this.

Yours does. Should it?

Maybe? This is lunch break, I don't have time to look everything up. If mine does, I assume it does for a reason. But I might be totally wrong. We can check later. Or you can check now, I can check later.

As the end-all be-all of balors, I think he is the kind of demon who would end up with cosmic power. Probably not his own layer though, since he's too busy kicking ass.

Good enough for me. The Six are the original balors (from the 1e DMG). Alzoll, Balor, Errtu, Ndulu, Tersoth and Wendonai. Balor is the most powerful of them. He would be a demon lord (rules a layer or not), but not a demon prince. (No layer control)

I decided to up his Str score anyways. Now his attack bonus for base attacks is at +66.

Admittedly I've never played a game at such a high level, but isn't AC 70 very high for CR 32? How would you go about hitting it, without polymorphing a raging barbarian into a Red Wyrm or some such? Or is it assumed that everyone will be using Brilliant Energy weapons?

Asha'man wrote:Admittedly I've never played a game at such a high level, but isn't AC 70 very high for CR 32? How would you go about hitting it, without polymorphing a raging barbarian into a Red Wyrm or some such? Or is it assumed that everyone will be using Brilliant Energy weapons?

Brilliant Energy doesn't actually help at all here, since it doesn't work on natural armor, but let's see: +26 (full BAB) +15 (Str) +6 (weapon) +6 (the entire weapon focus chain) = +53, so we could hit on a 17 or better with no buffs. I'm probably forgetting one or two things, so it's not unreasonable.

Asha'man wrote:Admittedly I've never played a game at such a high level, but isn't AC 70 very high for CR 32? How would you go about hitting it, without polymorphing a raging barbarian into a Red Wyrm or some such? Or is it assumed that everyone will be using Brilliant Energy weapons?

Well, aside from the fact that he should have a deflection bonus of +12 with his 35 Charisma, not +14, I'm not sure off the top of my head. It does seem a little high. Brilliant energy would be useless, because none of this is an armor bonus. It shouldn't be assumed players are using any type of weapon however.

Off the top of my head, a +32 attack bonus, a +8 weapon, a +1 weapon focus, a +13-+14 Str modifier gives us a +55 base to work with. Add on top of that a fighter's weapon training, a barbarian's rage, a paladin's smite evil....it should hit easier than it would miss. However, I don't like assuming both a +10 str enhancement item and a +8 weapon. One of the reasons 4e scales nicer. Also, the monks and rogues are going to have a hell of a time hitting being +8 behind in BaB, to say nothing of their lower Str scores.

Basically, what you see here is an example of why CR in 3e is utterly meaningless. A few players might stumble upon a +60 or better attack bonus at 32nd level with no problem. A few might optimize extremely and be far above that. A few might have nowhere near that, because they focused in other areas and now have no recourse in combat. A few might have nowhere near that because they tried to round their character out as best they could.

Most of my demon ACs fall in the high 50s, low 60s in the CR range 30-35.

To address the concerns listed, I fixed his Deflection bonus to AC and upped his CR to 34.

Aboleth
Huge Aberration (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 8d8+51 (87 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 60 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/CMB: +6/+16
Attack: Tentacle +12 melee (1d6+8 plus slime)
Full Attack: 4 tentacles +12 melee (1d6+8 plus slime)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Enslave, psionics, slime
Special Qualities: Darkvision, mucus cloud
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +11
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 15, Wis 17, Cha 17
Skills: Knowledge (any two) +13, Perception +16, Sense Motive +4, Spellcraft +13, Swim +16
Feats: Alertness, Combat Casting, Iron Will, Toughness
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary, brood (2-4), or slaver brood (1d3+1 plus 7-12 skum)
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Usually Lawful Evil
Advancement: 9-16 HD (Huge); 17-24 HD (Gargantuan)

Aboleths speak their own language, as well as Undercommon and Aquan.

Combat

Enslave (Su): Three times per day, an aboleth can attempt to enslave any one living creature within 30 feet. The target must succeed on a DC 17 Will save or be affected as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 16th). An enslaved creature obeys the aboleth’s telepathic commands until freed by remove curse, and can attempt a new Will save every 24 hours to break free. The control is also broken if the aboleth dies or travels more than 1 mile from its slave. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Psionics (Sp) At will—hypnotic pattern (DC 15), illusory wall (DC 17), mirage arcana (DC 18), persistent image (DC 18), programmed image (DC 19), project image (DC 20), veil (DC 19). Caster level 16th.

Slime (Ex): A blow from an aboleth’s tentacle can cause a terrible affliction. A creature hit by a tentacle must succeed on a DC 19 Fortitude save or begin to transform over the next 1d4+1 minutes, the skin gradually becoming a clear, slimy membrane. An afflicted creature must remain moistened with cool, fresh water or take 1d12 points of damage every 10 minutes. The slime reduces the creature’s natural armor bonus by 1 (but never to less than 0).

A remove disease spell cast before the transformation is complete will restore an afflicted creature to normal. Afterward, however, only a heal or mass heal spell can reverse the affliction.

Mucus Cloud (Ex): An aboleth underwater surrounds itself with a viscous cloud of mucus roughly 1 foot thick. Any creature coming into contact with and inhaling this substance must succeed on a DC 19 Fortitude save or lose the ability to breathe air for the next 3 hours. An affected creature suffocates in 2d6 minutes if removed from the water. Renewed contact with the mucus cloud and failing another Fortitude save continues the effect for another 3 hours.
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Aboleth Mage
(10th Level Wizard)
Huge Aberration (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 10d8+71 (118 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 60 ft.
Armor Class: 19 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +2 deflection, +7 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/CMB: +7/+16
Attack: Tentacle +12 melee (1d6+7 plus slime)
Full Attack: 4 tentacles +12 melee (1d6+7 plus slime)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Cantrips, enslave, psionics, slime, spells
Special Qualities: Arcane bond, darkvision, mucus cloud, school power
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +13
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 15, Con 22, Int 19, Wis 18, Cha 20
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) +16, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +16, Knowledge (history) +16, Knowledge (planes) +16, Perception +16, Sense Motive +4, Spellcraft +16, Swim +16
Feats: Combat Casting, Craft Wondrous Item*, Empower Spell, Iron Will, Scribe Scroll*, Spell Focus (illusion), Toughness
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary, brood (2-4), or slaver brood (1d3+1 plus 7-12 skum)
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Advancement: 9-16 HD (Huge); 17-24 HD (Gargantuan); or by class level

Combat

Enslave (Su): Three times per day, an aboleth mage can attempt to enslave any one living creature within 30 feet. The target must succeed on a DC 20 Will save or be affected as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 16th). An enslaved creature obeys the aboleth mage’s telepathic commands until freed by remove curse, and can attempt a new Will save every 24 hours to break free. The control is also broken if the aboleth mage dies or travels more than 1 mile from its slave. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Psionics (Sp) At will—hypnotic pattern (DC 18), illusory wall (DC 20), mirage arcana (DC 21), persistent image (DC 21), programmed image (DC 22), project image (DC 23), veil (DC 22). Caster level 16th.

Slime (Ex): A blow from an aboleth mage’s tentacle can cause a terrible affliction. A creature hit by a tentacle must succeed on a DC 21 Fortitude save or begin to transform over the next 1d4+1 minutes, the skin gradually becoming a clear, slimy membrane. An afflicted creature must remain moistened with cool, fresh water or take 1d12 points of damage every 10 minutes. The slime reduces the creature’s natural armor bonus by 1 (but never to less than 0).

A remove disease spell cast before the transformation is complete will restore an afflicted creature to normal. Afterward, however, only a heal or mass heal spell can reverse the affliction.

Spells: Caster Level 10th

Typical Wizard Spells Prepared (4/5/5/4/4/2; save DC 14 + spell level)
0—daze, detect magic, prestidigitation, resistance; 1st—alarm, charm person, color spray, mage armor, magic missile; 2nd—blur, bull’s strength, darkness, fox’s cunning, see invisibilty; 3rd—dispel magic, displacement, fly, lightning bolt; 4th—greater invisibility, phantasmal killer, scrying, stoneskin; 5th—hold monster, wall of force

Arcane Bond (Su): The aboleth mage's bonded object is a ring. Once per day it can use the ring to cast any spell he can cast. Without the ring, the aboleth mage must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose any spell it tries to cast.

Mucus Cloud (Ex): An aboleth mage underwater surrounds itself with a viscous cloud of mucus roughly 1 foot thick. Any creature coming into contact with and inhaling this substance must succeed on a DC 21 Fortitude save or lose the ability to breathe air for the next 3 hours. An affected creature suffocates in 2d6 minutes if removed from the water. Renewed contact with the mucus cloud and failing another Fortitude save continues the effect for another 3 hours.

School Power: The aboleth mage has taken the universal school. It has the Hand of the Apprentice and the Metamagic Mastery supernatural abilities. Additionally, once per day it can cast identify, bear's endurance, and lightning bolt.

Possessions: Spellbook, ring of protection +2 (bonded object), amulet of health +2, wand of magic missile (40 charges)

Ideal.

Sahuagin
Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), swim 60 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (+1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/CMB: +2/+4
Attack: Talon +4 melee (1d4+2) or trident +4 melee (1d8+3) or heavy crossbow +3 ranged (1d10/19-20)
Full Attack: Trident +4 melee (1d8+3) and bite +2 melee (1d4+1); or 2 talons +4 melee (1d4+2) and bite +2 melee (1d4+1); or heavy crossbow +3 ranged (1d10/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Blood frenzy, rake 1d4+1
Special Qualities: Blindsense 30 ft., darkvision, freshwater sensitivity, light blindness, speak with sharks, water dependent
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 9
Skills: Handle Animal +4, Perception +6, Profession (hunter) +5, Ride +6, Stealth +6, Survival +5
Feats: Great Fortitude, Multiattack*
Environment: Warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary, pair, team (5-8), patrol (11-20 plus 1 3rd-level lieutenant and 1-2 sharks), band (20-80 plus 100% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level lieutenant and 1 4th-level chieftain per 20 adults plus 1-2 sharks), or tribe (70-160 plus 100% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level lieutenant per 20 adults, 1 4th-level chieftain per 40 adults, 9 4th-level guards, 1-4 underpriestesses of 3rd-6th level, 1 7th-level priestess, and 1 baron of 6th-8th level plus 5-8 sharks)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: 3-5 HD (Medium), 6-10 HD (Large), or by character class
Level Adjustment: +2 (+3 if four-armed)

Sahuagin speak their own language, Sahuagin. Thanks to their high Intelligence scores, most sahuagin also speak two bonus languages, usually Common and Aquan.

Combat

Blindsense (Ex): A sahuagin can locate creatures underwater within a 30-foot radius. This ability works only when the sahuagin is underwater.

Blood Frenzy (Ex): Once per day a sahuagin that takes damage in combat can fly into a frenzy in the following round, clawing and biting madly until either it or its opponent is dead. It gains +2 Constitution and +2 Strength, and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. A sahuagin cannot end its frenzy voluntarily.

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +2 melee, damage 1d4+1. A sahuagin also gains two rake attacks when it attacks while swimming.

Freshwater Sensitivity (Ex): A sahuagin fully immersed in fresh water must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become fatigued. Even on a success, it must repeat the save attempt every 10 minutes it remains immersed.

Light Blindness (Ex): Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds sahuagin for round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled while operating in bright light.

Speak with Sharks (Ex): Sahuagin can communicate telepathically with sharks up to 150 feet away. The communication is limited to fairly simple concepts such as "food," "danger," and "enemy." Sahuagin can use the Handle Animal skill to befriend and train sharks.

Water Dependent (Ex): Sahuagin can survive out of the water for 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules).

Skills: A sahuagin has a +4 racial bonus on Survival and Profession (hunter) checks, a +4 racial bonus on Perception and Stealth checks when underwater, and a +4 racial bonus on Handle Animal checks when working with sharks.

Sahagin Mutants

About one in two hundred sahuagin has four arms. Such creatures can make four claw attacks or use extra weapons, in addition to the claw and bite attacks.
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Malenti
Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), swim 40 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (+1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/CMB: +2/+4
Attack: Trident +4 melee (1d8+3) or heavy crossbow +3 ranged (1d10/19-20)
Full Attack: Trident +4 melee (1d8+3); or heavy crossbow +3 ranged (1d10/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Blood frenzy
Special Qualities: Blindsense 30 ft., darkvision, freshwater sensitivity, light sensitivity, speak with sharks, water dependent
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 9
Skills: Disguise -1, Handle Animal +4, Perception +6, Profession (hunter) +5, Ride +6, Stealth +6, Survival +5
Feats: Great Fortitude
Environment: Warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary, pair, team (5-8)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: 3-10 HD (Medium), or by character class
Level Adjustment: +1

Malenti are sahuagin that look just like aquatic elves. They speak their own language, Sahuagin. Thanks to their high Intelligence scores, most malenti also speak two bonus languages, usually Elven and Aquan.

Combat

Blindsense (Ex): A malenti can locate creatures underwater within a 30-foot radius. This ability works only when the sahuagin is underwater.

Blood Frenzy (Ex): Once per day a malenti that takes damage in combat can fly into a frenzy in the following round, attacking madly until either it or its opponent is dead. It gains +2 Constitution and +2 Strength, and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. A malenti cannot end its frenzy voluntarily.

Freshwater Sensitivity (Ex): A malenti fully immersed in fresh water must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become fatigued. Even on a success, it must repeat the save attempt every 10 minutes it remains immersed.

Light Sensitivity (Ex): Malenti are dazzled while operating in bright light.

Speak with Sharks (Ex): Malenti can communicate telepathically with sharks up to 150 feet away. The communication is limited to fairly simple concepts such as "food," "danger," and "enemy." Malenti can use the Handle Animal skill to befriend and train sharks.

Water Dependent (Ex): Malenti can survive out of the water for 1 hour per point of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules).

Skills: A malenti has a +4 racial bonus on Survival and Profession (hunter) checks, a +4 racial bonus on Perception and Stealth checks when underwater, a +4 racial bonus on Handle Animal checks when working with sharks, and a +10 bonus to Disguise checks when pretending to be aquatic elves.

Do you think that the sahuagin are worth their posted CR 2? Comparing them to a gnoll, I'd say they are about on par.

I think the sahuagin's superior racial hit dice, along with its overall better ability scores and natural weapons, makes it enough of a greater challenge compared to a gnoll to merit a higher CR. And if one can get you into the water you have an even tougher fight on your hands.

Of course if you are using double 1st level hit points, they are probably only a tough CR 1 unless Pathfinder decides to give monsters the same benefit.