!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
talisman@indiana.edu logs sept 95 #5b
From s0a7254@tam2000.tamu.eduFri Sep 29 12:13:38 1995
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 13:25:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: Women and the House
Dear Tony amd All,
Your wrote:
> If understood like that, then this Tablet would exclude women from all
> Houses of Justice--local, national, and international. And that is precisely
> how the Tablet WAS understood in 1909, at the time it was written.
>
Is the following correct:
* At the time of the receipt of the second letter to Corine
True, 1909, the Chicago institution was considered a House of
Justice - by the Chicago House itself and by Abdul Baha *
a) If so, did the reference to the head of the House being male
raise any questions among them? I suppose one could say that
since the Chicago House was composed of only men and therefore the
chairperson was male, the statement did not give rise to any concern.
However, Abdul Baha does explicitly distinguish between the members
of the House and the head of the House.
b) But, if Abdul Baha did not consider the Chicago institution
as a House of Justice, then in fact Corine True did understand
Abdul Baha correctly and the Chicago House did not.
A few questions:
1) What terminology did Abdul Baha use when refering
to the Universal House of Justice when corresponding
to Persians? Did He use baytu'l adl-i-azam/Supreme House of
Justice ? This is how Iranian Baha'is refer to the
Universal House of Justice. Or did He use different
titles?
2) When speaking about Houses (plural) of Justice, did
Abdul Baha use the plural? If we assume that the adjective
"general/ummumi" refered to the most important institution
in an area (I hope I am not misunderstanding Juan), why
did not Abdul Baha say the "general Houses of Justice"?
3) Are we sure we have all the pertinent letters?
regards,
sAmAn
From pjohnson@leo.vsla.eduFri Sep 29 12:14:34 1995
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 95 14:27:37 EDT
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
To: Bruce Burrill
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Dead Buddhism
According to Bruce Burrill:
>
> At one time some twenty plus years ago, I seriously considered Baha'i, but
> opted for the richer and deeper traditions of Buddhism.
It is a matter of faith for Baha'is that fundamental change in a religious
tradition must be negative. That is, revelation starts out
perfect and any modification can but introduce imperfection.
The richness and depth of Buddhism is clearly a cumulative
quality that increased over time. The very fact of such
progressive development must be rejected to fit the Baha'i
paradigm.
>
SF-> > "As a professional scientist, I find it hard to regard such a belief
> as anything but superstition. If it had altogether good
> consequences, i.e., if it was fruitful, I might change my mind." <
>
> Well, certainly the idea of god has not had altogether good results, the caste
> system is a very nice example, so then are you going to change your mind
> about god?
To pursue a more direct parallel, belief in an afterlife with
no reincarnation has had awful consequences too. So has belief
in no afterlife at all. An argument that cuts this many ways
thus has no power to reject any particular view. BTW, as a
Theosophist I accepted Blavatsky's teaching that if people
believed in reincarnation they would behave more responsibly,
compassionately, etc.-- UNTIL I spent some time in India.
>
> > "Everywhere that Buddhism once shown brightly, and brightly indeed
> did it shine, it is dead, ignored by the populations it once educated,
> rejected.
Sri Lanka? Thailand? Mongolia? There are about 350 million
Buddhists in the world, so I suggest your report of its death
is greatly exaggerated.
Cheers
From rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.comFri Sep 29 12:15:15 1995
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 95 18:32:01 -0400
From: Ahang Rabbani
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: UHJ goal on simplified Writings
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Moojan:
You wrote:
> Ahang writes:
> > So, to answer your question, not only simplified Writings is
> > permitted, its greatly encouraged. The Words of Baha'u'llah must
> > be accessible to all.
> I am not sure that your statement is correct. Some years ago, I wrote to
> the Universal House of Justice with a proposal for a simplified Iqan and
> I sent them some thirty or forty pages of the Iqan in the style that I
> was suggesting. The reply that I got did not encourage any further
> development of my proposal
> Moojan
As an example: On 25 February 1986, the House of Justice shared a
letter with all the National Spiritual Assemblies, providing them
the major objectives of the Six Year Plan -- based on this document
and in consultation with their respective Counselors and
communities, the NSAs were expected to form their national plans
and submit them to the World Centre for approval.
On page 3, of "The Major Objectives" documents, the House gives the
following goal:
"Produce simplified versions of the Sacred Scriptures, the
writings of the Guardian and the statements of the
Universal House of Justice."
Also, if memory serves, at the conclusion of the Seven Year Plan,
we sent you from the World Centre a substantial booklet that
detailed the achievements of the Seven Year Plan -- you will find
references to production of simplified Writings in Africa in that
booklet.
As to your experience, which I'm sorry to learn, I can only say
that perhaps the particular approach taken did not meet with the
approval of the House. For example, I remember when Mary Hardy
simplified the Peace Statement, it was received very
enthusiastically where a number of previous efforts were
discourage.
So, let's not give up. Not everyone in the world is a college
grad. We owe it to the masses.
All the best, ahang.
From think@ucla.eduFri Sep 29 12:15:50 1995
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 17:22:29 -0700
From: Safa Sadeghpour
To: John Haukness ,
Robert Johnston
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: God and attributes
At 04:10 PM 9/28/95 -0500, John Haukness wrote:
>"Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and sanctifying
>breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing
>heart...Then and only then, will the Trust of God, latent in the reality
>of man, emerge, as resplendend as the rising Orb of Divine Revelation,
>from behind the veil of concealment, and implan the ensign of its
>revealed glory upon the summits of men's hearts.
>
>Wha I want to ask in this Baha'i Buddhist (as a former Buddhist myself)
>conference, is do we really think there is a direction here, I happen to
>think not, one can go anywhere. Knowing God, not knowing, Dhrama, in the
>Tao te ching we have "The more he gives, The more he gets. The more he
>does for others, the more he has himself." So we have a few paradoxes, is
Dear John,
Not all valuable knowledge is practical. There is, at least, some value in
seeking
the meaning of the fundamental; God, Metaphysics, and other light stuff. What
is practical in a specific situation is randomical, or should I say,
circumstantial. What
is fundamental in *any* situation is universal, and unique.
Take care.
Safa
>this a surprise or hasn't this always been the case.
>
>
>haukness@tenet.edu
>2015 Bay St. N.
>Texas City, TX 77590
>voice/fax 409-948-6074
>One planet one people please!
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"My goal is simple. It is complete understanding of the universe, why it as
it is and why it exists as all." - Stephen Hawking
"Truth decays into beauty, while beauty soon becomes merely charm. Charm
ends up as strangeness, and even that doesn't last, but up and down are
forever." - The Laws of Physics
"The shining spark of truth comes forth only from the clash of differing
opinions." Abdu'l-Baha
Safa Sadeghpour (think@ucla.edu)
http://www.smc.edu/homepage/maclab/maclab.web/web/safa.web/safa.htm
From derekmc@ix.netcom.comFri Sep 29 12:16:13 1995
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 18:05:28 -0700
From: DEREK COCKSHUT
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: ABS TALISMAN AWARD DINNER bun fight and DICKIES BARBER SHOP.
Eric Pierce raised a very delicate and personal item of personal
grooming with me that I thought one should share in the intimate World
of Talisman for assistance and clarification no doubt from an
unrevealed and mistranslated work . Eric's Hair is rather long and needs cutting, he was wondering about the chance of
the very famous Dickie's Barber's Shop coming to ABS and offering their
hair service in the Bookshop . It is not beyond the realms of reason to
have a Talisman Cut from Dickie's just for Talisman types at ABS a
statement of Unity pointing us out to all.Personally I am not keen on
tobacco chewing and spitting Barbers but my friend Burl might gives the
latest from Walla Walla. I can see Talismanians flying in for this
Annual Award Banquet , Burl with his hair slicked back , Linda with her
Lovebird Lucia on her shoulder , Mary
from New Zealand her hair just fixed , a wonder of Kiwi creation
dazzling us all , Rick with his better manners book from Beth in hand
and all of us , good old Rob Stockman's Guests . By the way Burl it is
not true that the Ladies down under are taking our good friend Ahmad
'the Seed' to a special readjustment course , so please stop spreading
that one.
Kindest Regards Derek Cockshut
From mfoster@tyrell.netFri Sep 29 12:18:50 1995
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 21:49:16 -0500 (EDT)
From: "Mark A. Foster"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Dead Buddhism
To: talisman@indiana.edu
K. Paul Johnson wrote to the multiple recipients of talisman@indiana.edu:
P >It is a matter of faith for Baha'is that fundamental change
P >in a religious tradition must be negative. That is, revelation
P >starts out perfect and any modification can but introduce
P >imperfection. The richness and depth of Buddhism is clearly a
P >cumulative quality that increased over time. The very fact of
P >such progressive development must be rejected to fit the Baha'i
P >paradigm.
Hi, Paul -
I agree with you about "the richness and depth of Buddhism" being a
"cumulative quality that increased over time." In principle, I believe
that, using `Abdu'l-Baha's *seasonal* metaphor (spiritual springtime,
summer, fall, and winter), religions become progressively more
perfected, or mature, throughout the course of a Dispensation, and then,
at least on one level, a decline sets in. However, for a specific
reason, I do not think that this decline is always evident. But more on
that later.
From my POV, the seasonal analogy should not be taken too literally.
For example, in Christianity, some of the greatest spiritual triumphs
took place after the conclusion of the Christian Dispensation, i.e.,
pietism (esp. the Society of Friends), New England Transcendentalism,
and the Church of the New Jerusalem (Swedenborgianism). In Hinduism, we
see the flowering of Vedanta in the person of Sri Ramakrishna and the
gradual refinements in the beauty of Kashmir Shaivism. In Judaism,
Sephardic Qabalism and the contemporary Jewish Renewal Movement have,
IMO, captured much of the wonder of the eternal message of Moses.
As I see it, the spiritual Kingdom of God manifested (the Greater
World of Prophethood) is not limited by time and place. The inner
reality of Manifestation (the Holy Spirit), although connected with the
Souls of the individual Prophets, is, along with the divine Word, Will,
and Cause, the Unity which transcends the diversity of Messengers. On
the Akashic level (that of spiritual substance), there is no difference.
But even in the realm of the rational soul, the differences are only
apparent.
On the plane of time (the world of human reason), each Prophet can
be _seen_ (using the mental faculties) as having a precise period, or
Dispensation, during which His Law (Will, Love, Revelation, Order,
Covenant, or divine Linking) provides the Point of connection between
the Reality of the Kingdom and human souls. When the cup of creation is
full, God manifested appears once again and initiates a new creation.
Therefore, I would say that the various religions of God, after
their Dispensations have concluded, may continue to develop - though, on
the inward level, their sustenance (spirit of faith) would now be
derived from a subsequent divine Revelator. To me, this recognition of
the oneness of the spiritual Kingdom manifested and its integrative
influences in the kingdom of creation is what Baha'u'llah meant by the
Valley of Unity. IOW (in other words), it is all one. All existence is a
continuity - a manifestation or emanation from the One Divine Reality.
On a more mundane level, I do not think it strange that Baha'u'llah
encouraged His followers to view the various religions from a unified
perspective. According to Harold Garfinkel's ethnomethodology, it is
normative for belief systems to accept certain rules ("common sense
reasonings" - Garfinkel) by which apparently contradictory data can be
reconciled. For example, on the Meher Baba list, there has been a
discussion on the subject of "Avataric mistakes." According to Meher
Baba, each time the Avatar has come, He has made one major mistake.
Buddha's mistake, Baba said, was not to teach a belief in God, and
Muhammad's mistake was not to acknowledge that He was God!
Blessings,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Kansas Director, Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff on Three CompuServe Religion Forums) *
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
* UWMG94A (Prodigy) RealityDude (Microsoft) Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-)
From think@ucla.eduFri Sep 29 12:19:11 1995
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 19:51:56 -0700
From: Safa Sadeghpour
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: God and attributes
At 04:40 PM 9/28/95 +1200, Robert Johnston wrote:
>Dear Safa,
>
>>>
>>>That God is knowing and that there is a Cause of causes, may be discerned
>>>inferentially, using speculative reasoning.
>>
>>Could you show how this is possible?
>
>
>Perhaps.
>
>Let's take "God is knowing." How can we inferentially affirm this? Simple
>really: if the creatures "know", then why should the Creator be ignorant?
>
>Aristotle uses an interesting argument to establish understanding of First
>Cause. [correct me if I go wrong here] .. He says [something like] the
>more primary and influential the force, the more motionless. Greater
>things MOVE lesser things. If he is correct, then we might also say that
>[& maybe Aristotle did anyway] the more primary and influential the force,
>the more subtle, because, otherwise, that force would become entangled in
>the ways of that which moves. And if we say the more primary and
>influential the force, the more subtle, then we might also say that the
>more primary and influential the force, the more universal because the
>universe[s] is[are] so filled with motion.... and so on.
>
>Robert.
>
Dearest Robert,
I'll use this chance to explore the cosmological proof for the existence of God.
As you properly stated, Aristotle did use the argument the First Mover argument,
but it must be recognized that Plato was the first known philosopher to
employ it.
Taken from The Laws:
"Athenian Stranger: Or, to put the question in another way, making answer to
ourselves: -- If, as most of these philosophers have the audacity to affirm, all
things were at rest in one mass, which of the above-mentioned principles of
motion must necessarily be the first to spring up among them? Clearly the
self-moving; for there could be no change in them arising out of any
external cause; the change must first take place in themselves. Then we must
say that self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which
arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is eldest and
mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by
another and yet moves other is second."
After the greeks it was revived most famously by the work of Aquinas in the
Summa
Theologica and the Summa Contra Gentiles in the first three of his five ways
to prove the existence of God (motion, causation, and existence).
The whole argument can be simplified in the following way:
1. All things have a cause (There are no things which don't have a cause).
2. No things are the cause of themselves.
3. It is absurd to imagine an infinite series of causes and effects, without
a First Cause.
4. Therefore, there *is* a self-originating First Cause known as God.
The argument is not even valid. Moreover, its premises are not true,
or better stated, we *cannot* be sure, in principle, that they are.
Premise #1 makes a universal assumption on no better foundation
than inductive reasoning. There is no way in which that the
statement "Some things have a cause" to be transformed to the
universal "All thing have a cause" by mere use of inductive reasoning.
Moreover, it seems that many aspects of Quantum Mechanics cannot
be justified by classical causal analysis (e.g. Schwarzchild radiation,
emission of photons from excited electron), but rather by probabilistic
calculations. Even if we were to accept the truth of this premise, it
would defy the conclusion insomuch that God would not have a cause.
Bertrand Russell, in Why I'm not a Christian, and Kant, among others,
propose this rebuttal.
Premise #2 suffers from the same inductive reasoning problems of Premise #1.
Additionally, just like premise #2, it would defeat the final conclusion.
Premise #3 is totally unwarranted. Since when has absurdity played
a role in what is true, and what is false? Isn't this same "absurdity problem"
which has faced most revolutionary changes in the way of our thinking?
As Faraday once said, "Nothing is too wonderful to be true." In fact,
it is easier to imagine an infinite series of causes and effects, than to
imagine
an all powerful, all encompassing, all knowing being which is self-originating,
and has the power to defeat every single physical law we know of.
Other problems include the following:
1. There is no reason to believe that the "Supreme Reality", that is, our notion
of an all powerful being, *is* First Cause even if it exists (Kant, Critique
of Pure Reason, 611). IOW, this First Cause, if it exists, could be
something that has no similarity to our notion of God. It might as well be a
self-originating and necessary ant.
2. Even if the principle of causality should exist in the physical world, there
is no reason, other than mere speculation, to believe that it should also
affect the spiritual world (Kant, CPR, 609), and the relation between these
two spheres.
3. "Nothing is demonstrable unless the contrary implies contradiction.
Nothing that is
distinctly conceivable implies a contradiction. There is no being,
therefore, whose
non-existence implies a contradiction. Consequently, there is no being whose
existence
is demonstrable." (Hume, Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion, 96).
4. Even if we accept the whole argument, we might postulate that it is not
God who is the First Cause but the universe itself! (Hume, DCNR, 97).
5. It is accepted that there has *always* been a Creation insomuch that the
title
of "Creator" necessitates a creation. "How can anything that exists from
eternity
have a cause, since that relation implies a priority in time and a beginning of
existence?" (Hume, DCNR, 98).
As mentioned in another post some time ago, even if we are to accept whole-
heartedly this argument, there is no salvation from the self defeating
nature of it.
If we accept that *All* things have a cause, then God must also have a
cause. If we
then say that only *Some* thing have a cause, then the whole argument falls.
Thus,
it has been shown that the argument is not only epistemologically, but also
ontologically, untenable.
Please direct replies to specific rebuttals.
your friend,
Safa Sadeghpour
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"My goal is simple. It is complete understanding of the universe, why it as
it is and why it exists as all." - Stephen Hawking
"Truth decays into beauty, while beauty soon becomes merely charm. Charm
ends up as strangeness, and even that doesn't last, but up and down are
forever." - The Laws of Physics
"The shining spark of truth comes forth only from the clash of differing
opinions." Abdu'l-Baha
Safa Sadeghpour (think@ucla.edu)
http://www.smc.edu/homepage/maclab/maclab.web/web/safa.web/safa.htm
From haukness@tenet.eduFri Sep 29 12:20:29 1995
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 22:34:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: John Haukness
To: "K. Paul Johnson"
Cc: Bruce Burrill , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Dead Buddhism
Allah-u-abha Friends: Abdul Baha said that Christiandom is dead. As the
worlds largest religion, his statement certainly will be scoffed at by
the majority, but then when the romans watched Christ's crusifiction,
they scoffed at Him, His repy was forgive them father for they know not
what they are doing.
No one wants Christianity or Buddhism to die, but death and rebirth are a
natural life process. Bahullah said "May my life be a sacrifice for Him
(Christ)" I'm sure Buddha as well. The point is the world is saying that
Buddha can not come back and change His name. So if hypothetically Buddha
did come back and did change His name, and the people who recognized this
reformation stated that This was a new day and the old day was now past,
(because hypothetically now Buddha was with man again in physical form)
then this is not a case of any one wanting 1000 year old traditions to be
dead, it would be as Abdul Baha stated, a representational fact,
hypothetically.
haukness@tenet.edu
2015 Bay St. N.
Texas City, TX 77590
voice/fax 409-948-6074
One planet one people please!
From haukness@tenet.eduFri Sep 29 12:21:27 1995
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 22:57:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: John Haukness
To: talisman
Subject: Buddhism wanted dead or alive
Allah-u-abha Friends: Just have to share the revelation I picked up today
that Buddhism cannot be a dead religion because of the millions
practicing what the newspapers call Buddhism, or the millions more
Moslems practicing forms of what we call Islam, this means that God's
sending a manifestation of God or a figure like Buddha to earth, lets say
in a 14 year old girl form 150 miles north of Kampala, and that let's say
after 150 years only a few million humans would recognize that Buddha was
that female, say she lived 50 years, that if only a few million people
recognized her, they would have to be wrong because there would be many
millions more who rejected Her now Buddha. So it is a thing of majority,
humans get to decide by census. This is wonderful logic and so simple.
Thanks.
haukness@tenet.edu
2015 Bay St. N.
Texas City, TX 77590
voice/fax 409-948-6074
One planet one people please!
From richs@microsoft.comFri Sep 29 12:21:42 1995
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 95 21:30:05 PDT
From: Rick Schaut
To: 72110.2126@compuserve.com, Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: An Open Judicial Process
Dear David and Friends,
>From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
>How can we have an open and free system of
>real-life jurisprudence in the Faith if every case that is currently
>being considered carries with it a de facto gag order?
Easy. We restrict our discussion to hypotheticals and princple,
and we don't allow ourselves to be disturbed by our impressions
of an institution's decision. At least that's what I would regard
as the middle path between undermining an institution's ability
to fulfill it's responsibility and squelching discussion altogether.
Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut
From friberg@will.brl.ntt.jpFri Sep 29 12:22:53 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 14:13:54 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp
Subject: Death and Buddhism
Dear Paul, Bruce and all:
You take me to task, and rightly so, for prematurely announcing the
death of Buddhism:
Me: "Everywhere that Buddhism once shown brightly, and brightly indeed
Me: did it shine, it is dead, ignored by the populations it once
Me: educated, rejected.
Paul: Sri Lanka? Thailand? Mongolia? There are about 350 million
Paul: Buddhists in the world, so I suggest your report of its death
Paul: is greatly exaggerated.
But, exaggerated as is my claim, it may not be far off the mark.
We know that Buddhism has disappeared from India and almost
disappeared in China, Mongolia, Vietnam, and North Korea (former or
present communist countries). In other countries its voice is
muted and increasing less influential, it appears.
Anyone who has visited Kyoto, or Hanchou, or Bangkok or many other
places has probably been profoundly moved by the beauty and
wonderousness of Buddhist temples. Few fair-minded person can but
marvel at the profoundity of Buddhist wisdom and insight, which
seems to have preceded the development of a comparable western set of
psychological insights by more than 2000 years. And it may not be
even an exaggeration to say that the Dalai Lama is the most
respected religious leader of the last several decades.
Yet, all these marvels appear to be but the sunset rays of a day
now past. Searching the horizon, Buddhism appears much less vital
in the hearts and minds of citizens of Buddhist countries than does
either Islam or Christianity. There are exceptions, of course.
Chinese persecution has turned Tibet's exiled Buddhist community into
an increasingly-respected dynamic force with a strong missionary
zeal. And southeast Asia maintains peace-loving Buddhist communities
well-regarded the world over. But, this said, I have a hard time
feeling that Buddhism enters at all into the thinking about the future
in Asian countries. It seems to be only on the agenda in terms of
environmental concerns, and, of course, traditional cultural heritage
concerns.
I may be too strongly influenced by mainstream Japanese thinking on
these matters. In Japan, Buddhism is almost literally only for the
dead. The main role that Buddhism plays in the life of most Japanese
is when they die. Then, almost always, a priest is called for and the
burial is conducted according to Buddhist rites, very often in the
many Buddhist cemeteries which are the main source of income for the
many privately owned Buddhist temples dotting the land.
We tend to think of Buddhism as being for tourists and the dead.
Of course, the older generation maintains more of an affection for
Buddhism than the younger generation. But, lately, there has been
much pessimistic discussion that even that support is rapidly dying
away. Aum Shinri Kyo, a murderous Buddhist sect that gassed thousands
of Japanese with sarin last year and has a record of atrocities much
stranger than that even of a Batman comic book villain, has not helped
matters much. The newspapers now says that less than 45% of the
Japanese population claims to have any religion at all, be it Buddhism
or the 5 or 6% who are Christians.
Most educated Japanese see Buddhism as dead, something for their
grandparents to be interested in, or a profit making scheme. And, I
think this "modern" thinking is becoming increasingly widespread
even outside the Japan and the communist east Asian countries.
While this does dampen my enthusiasm for Buddhism as a source of
ideas for the next century, it doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for
Buddhist thinking. Perhaps more importantly, it doesn't dampen
my appreciation for the task that Buddhism, along with Confucianism,
has accomplished in raising the Asian people to the peak heights of
civilization. And, I fully expect that this most dynamic of
civilizations (of which my children are a part) will continue to
progress rapidly, leaving as myth to be discarded vain dreams
of Western superiority.
And I fully expect that the many Lessons learned, the Beauty
understood, and the Mystic Knowing unfurled by the Buddha
will live on.
But I will not insist that the Brand Name remain the same.
Yours respectfully,
Stephen R. Friberg
From cbuck@ccs.carleton.caFri Sep 29 15:27:13 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 1:30:20 EDT
From: Christopher Buck
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Christopher Buck
Subject: Is Buddhism *Dead*?
Many Persian Baha'is I know (including relatives) regard
Buddhism and, indeed, any pre-Baha'i religion as *dead*. My appeals to
Shoghi Effendi's strikingly eloquent theology of pluralism (WOB pp.
57-58) notwithstanding, learned Persian Baha'is can summon very
particularistic texts with no interest in reconciling these with
Baha'i universalisms. That's why, for me, Bijan Masumian is my *great
Persian hope*--in anticipation of his forthcoming Texas paper,
*Religious Intolerance in a Pluralistic World: Dangers of Absolutist
Claims*.
Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
From CMathenge@aol.comFri Sep 29 15:29:23 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 01:48:37 -0400
From: CMathenge@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: pagans
In a message dated 95-09-24 22:09:18 EDT, belove@sover.net writes:
Dear Philip,
As I'm running several days behind in reading all this stuff--gosh you guys
on Talisman are a prolific bunch!--I've just read your thoughtful post.
>But central to this forest of questions and misgivings I live in is an idea
>that I first read from James Hillman. (Hillman is a seminal thinker and a
>list of popularizers of his ideas would have to include Robert Bly and
>Thomas Moore.) Hillman, in his book Revisioning Psychology, talked about the
>damage done to the psyche by imperial Christianity and monotheism. Hillman
>is a great mind and a neo-pagan. I don't want to do violence to his position
>by over-simplifying it, but he seems to be saying that monotheism tends to
>impoverish the soul.
Well, I think it's more that an insistence on defining God according to a
specific set of limits or characteristics impoverishes the soul. The Baha'i
Writings constantly refer to God as the Unknowable Essence, the Unlimited,
the Unconstrained, etc., etc.
>The same idea occurs in Yeats. He speaks about the Celtic heritage and
>Celtic mythological figures and says "We Irish should keep these personages
>much in our hearts, for they lived in the places where we ride and go
>marketing, and osmetimes they have met one another on the hills that cast
>their shadows upon our doors at evening. If we will but tell these stories
>to our children the Land will begin again to be a Holy Land, as it was
>before men gave their hearts to Greece and Rome and Judea." (Preface to Lady
>Isabella August Gregory's book Cuchulain of Muirthemne)
Yet if one regards these various "deities," as personifications of aspects of
The One, as my friend from Sri Lanka tells me many Hindus do, we can retain
our sense of wonder without being too literal and superstitious, and still
remain within a context of monotheism. It's one of those paradoxes where two
concepts seem mutually exclusive yet perhaps when one's framework is broader
it will turn out that both ways of looking at reality are true.
>He seems to be saying that something spiritually vital and holy dies or
>disappears when people forget their local deities.
We've been talking a lot on Talisman about the need for Baha'is to have more
worship services and use Gospel music and chanting and Sufi practices and
many other expressions derived from various cultural backgrounds, and I think
this will be happening. This may be related to what you are saying--people
need ways to acknowledge their relationship with God and express themselves
so that there is a framework into which everyday life can fit without losing
joy and wonder and celebration.
>I get the impression that the Baha'i Faith understands this. There is
>something in our respect for the validity of native prophets. There is
>something in the idea of progressive revelation that seems to imply a
>layering revelations. Or is there? Do I violate the Faith if, as a Jew, I
>insist on a Seder, or if I still thrill to the charms of the Baby Jesus at
>Christmas time?
Personally, I don't see any problem with celebrating those times as long as
you feel it is meaningful to do so. I chose to raise my children without
celebrating Christmas because I didn't want them to develop an attachment to
it and because, realistically, it is difficult to make Ayyam-i-Ha really
special if you have just spent a fortune on Christmas, especially when there
is no time off, and there may not be many Baha'is in your community. Shoghi
Effendi said the Baha'i should not celebrate Christmas *in relation to each
other.* I interpret that to mean we don't need to hold community Christmas
parties or give other Baha'is gifts at Christmas. However, there is nothing
wrong with celebrating with your Christian (or Jewish, or whatever) relatives
and friends. Some Baha'is, in my opinion, go too far the other way; grumpily
pointing out that you don't celebrate Christmas can give the erroneous
impression that you don't believe in Christ. So, for whatever it's worth, my
$.02 is "chill out," as the kids say.
>I think the Faith is unclear on these matters. I relate it to the question
>of one language. I'm not so sure it is really a good idea for the world to
>have one language. I see it as an impoverishment of world heritage. I am
>watching the extinction of Yiddish as I would watch the loss of bluebirds. I
>am not sure the reduction in complexity is not also a reduction in aesthetic
>glory.
Well, it doesn't say the world is to have one language--it's an *auxilliary*
language. So that we can all communicate with each other, no matter where we
may happen to go in the world. That doesn't mean we are going to speak the
auxilliary language in our homes or with our friends and families. National
and tribal languages are to be retained. Of course it's possible that some
may eventually be lost, but this probably won't happen any time soon.
Differences in languages are desirable--some express one kind of thing
better, and some another. That's why Baha'u'llah sometimes wrote in Persian,
which I believe He called "the sweetest language," and sometimes in Arabic,
which He called (I think) "the eloquent language" or something of the kind.
While Shoghi Effendi wrote mainly in English, which he apparently found
conducive to the sort of explanations he needed to go into regarding the
building of the administrative order, etc.
>And, as long as I'm on this theme, let me introduce a related theme. I
>forget whether it is Care of the Soul, or The Planets Within, but in one of
>those books, Thomas Moore talks about how in a wiser time, people
>maintained, in their garden, a small shrine to Saturn. Saturn ruled sadness,
>melancholy, loss, and grief. These were necessary parts of life. Honoring
>them was a sacred obligation. To honor them gave the soul richness and
>texture and, perhaps also, wisdom.
>
>Now, let me quote from Baha'ullah: "Verily the most necessary thing is
>contentment under all circumstances; by this one is preserved from morbid
>conditions and from lassitude. Yield not to grief and sorrow: they cause the
>greatest misry. Jealousy consumeth the body and anger doth burn the liver;
>avoid thse two as you would a lion. "
>
>I can see how by following this advice one could end up denying one's own
>emotional life. I think this kind of counsel is the very thing Hillman
>warned against.
>
>So I wonder, what is the position of thoughtful Bahais on these matters and
>also, what is the Bahai position on these matters.
Here again, I don't think the two concepts are mutually exclusive. If you
read about the lives of the Bab and Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi
Effendi, you will notice that they grieved deeply when someone was martyred
or someone they loved passed away, and Baha'u'llah speaks in many passages of
His sorrow about the actions of the Covenant-Breakers as well as the misdeeds
of some of the believers. I think the intent of the passage you quoted,
which says "Yield not to grief and sorrow," is that not that we are to
pretend they don't exist, but that we are to feel those feelings when
appropriate and then let go of them, not obsess on them. We have all known
people who are simply determined to wallow in the negative and make
themselves and everyone around them as miserable as possible, and I think
that is what this passage is warning against. It doesn't, in my opinion,
mean that we must pretend we don't feel what we feel, or that we must be
absolutely happy and delighted all of the time even if our best friend has
just been run over by a truck or something.
I hope the above thoughts related to some of your questions. Thanks for
sharing your concerns, and keep it up.
With loving Baha'i greetings,
Carmen
From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzFri Sep 29 15:30:59 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 18:58:47 +1200
From: Robert Johnston
To: Safa Sadeghpour , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: God and attributes
My dear Safa,
I have no patience for enagaging in yet another round of me being
silly. I don't wish to un-convince you of your scepticism. Please keep
it. Indeed: cherish it. If Plato, Aristotle and whoever else are deemed
by you to be in error, then who am I that I could convince you otherwise?
Come on, pal...I'm not THAT stupid. The proofs you might have expected
from me are well-expressed in 'Abd'ul-Baha's Tablet to August Forel. Do
you have a copy?
Your tetchy friend,
Robert
From derekmc@ix.netcom.comFri Sep 29 15:31:41 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 00:07:02 -0700
From: DEREK COCKSHUT
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: The Reno Conference from Years Ago
As requested I interviewed Jeff and Janie Rhodes about this Conference
.At the Conference was Charlotte Linfoot and Florence Mayberry amongest
others . Ruhiyyih Khanum both Jeff and Janie say was not there.The
Conference was they believe in 1972 , although the taking of drugs was
an item one of the debates then was ; is it okay to use LSD because it
wasn't around at the time of Baha'u'llah and the Master. However they
have a very strong opinion that the main thrust of the conference was
SEX and how the Baha'i Laws were simply being ignored. Apparently large
numbers of youth had rented hotel rooms to 'crash in ' regardless of
the mixing of the sexes.The large Gym that housed many was divided up
by a large corridor , male on one side and female on the other. Both of
them said that although the theme was blunt about what is the Baha'i
Standard , they felt with hindsight it needed to have been said because
the Baha'i Youth community was copying the outside world and not trying
to be an example.
Kindest Regards Derek Cockshut
From burlb@bmi.netFri Sep 29 15:45:03 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 00:35 PDT
From: Burl Barer
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Gotta Crash Pad?
Dear Talispals:
After reading the latest press release on the ABS Conference in SF, I
declared my desire to be part of this historic and memorable event. My wife,
Britt, said: "Yeah, I know. You always want to go everywhere." Not true. I
didn't want to go to Vietnam, Phys Ed class (all PE teachers are Nazis*), or
to the Barry Manilow Concert. I went to two out of three of those and only
one of the two was a pleasant surprise -- Barely Maninuff was a polished and
clever entertainer.
Now, Britt has asked for *good reasons* for me to go to the ABS. I told her
that it would be a spiritualizing experience that would radiate positive
blessings upon our entire family. "You said that last time you went
somewhere -- it was a Bob Dylan concert, and you came home the same jerk as
when you left."
That was different. With Dylan, I knew all the words. I figure at the ABS
all those smarty pants scholars will use their big vocabularies.
"See," she says, "you have no business hanging out with people that smart."
"Oh, Snookums," I say in my most irritating conciliatory tone, "If you read
Talisman you would know that they are not *that* smart."
Well, she says I can go IF....IF I can find someone who will let me share a
room with them so I don't have to caugh up the cosmic bucks for a room of my
own. (yes, the long awaited advance check from the publisher has STILL not
arrived.) There must be someone going to this thing that could use a roomate
at the official ABS hotel...I make a good practice audience for your
dissertation. You can lock me in the room and give me your entire panorama
of possible presentations: "Turning Anarchist into Order Takers" . "Planning
and Creating a Model of Total Chaos," or "Educations Role in Keeping People
Stupid"
So...if you want a roomate at the ABS conference in SF --please E-Mail me
and let me know so I can get my conference reservation in.
Burl
PS: I was interviewed by the regional CBS affiliate today....I guess I'll be
a little feature on the news next thursday...anyway, I kept sticking
Stockman's book behind me in various shots in the hope that the words BAHA'I
FAITH would catch someone's attention.
* I do not have absolute, irrefutable evidence that all P.E. teachers are
Nazis. I do, however, have very strong feelings about it.
C'mon, put flowers in your hair and meet me in SF. I'll work on my table
manners.
From rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.comFri Sep 29 15:47:47 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 10:04:01 -0400
From: Ahang Rabbani
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: quote in Dialogue Magazine
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Friends,
Sorry to take up the bandwidth with this request, but been trying
to locate a previously unpublished quote from the beloved
Guardian which Geoffery Nash uses in his excellent article in one
of the Dialogue magazine issues -- the article appeared toward
the end of the magazine. As I recall the title of the article
was something like "The Baha'i Electoral Process", and in this
quote Shoghi Effendi encourages change in the membership of
Baha'i institutions.
I need it for a deepening class that I'm conducting.
I found a quote by Shoghi Effendi in Persian which he says the
membership on Baha'i institutions is like water. Initially, its
pure, the source of life and essential for existence. However,
if it does not flow, if its permitted to remain stagnant, then it
looses its purity, its fluidity, its texture will change and no
longer will be life giving, indeed becomes harmful. Much the
same way that water must flow, membership of the institutions
must remain dynamic, ever changing.
Anyway, since this is an unpublished Persian Text, I can't use
it, but would like to locate the one quoted by Nash. Appreciate
any help that you can give.
best wishes, ahang.
From LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.eduFri Sep 29 15:48:54 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 10:43:24 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: institutions and peyote
I have only had a chance to scan the Talisman messages these days, but I was
struck by David's report on Franklin Kahn. To me it was such a glaring example
of what we had been discussing earlier about closed boundaries. Having lived
on the Navajo Reservation in my youth, I have great appreciation for the
ceremonials and healing rituals of these people and scoff at anyone - or any
institution (I'm sorry to offend so many Talismanians by these words) that
would deprecate such cultural practices. How extraordinarily hypocritical it
is of any of us to criticize such things. Look at us in our society! What on
earth do we have to offer the world. As a former psychologist, I can assure
you that much of what occurs in the offices of clinicians or in so-called group
therapy is positively laughable! Therapists listen to the latest trends in
pop-culture and psychobabble and feed it back to their patients. In the 1980s
I knew a Baha'i therapist who seemed to be encouraging everyone she dealt with
to get a divorce. Much better for the children, don't you know!
Rick, I wish that I could agree with you about not second guessing our
"wonderful" institutions. Many of us did not become Baha'is so that we could
turn off our minds and allow the Big Guys to take over for us. We thought that
we were all a part of the growth and development of this religion. But, alas,
all we see is a pattern of "Those in Charge" and "The Rank and File" who must
be good soldiers and abide by anything that is filtered down to us. Sorry.
This is a religion that brought in people who were fed up with religious
dogmatism. The confinement we found in our churches choked us. Some of us
still refuse to be choked to death by people who claim to know what is best for
us.
I make my own decisions for myself. I will listen to what my new friend from
Ishqabad has to say about psychic phenomena. My Lebanese Baha'i friends know
that there is at least one Shi'ite woman in Michigan who is extraordinary at reading cards,
predicting the future, and giving advice. I listen when I hear such things
now. I went through my "closed boundaries" period and it got me no where. It
just narrowed my horizens and deprived me of fellowship with many valuable
people.
A discussion of the "evils" of the use of peyote in curing rituals seems so
very ethnocentric to me. Think of what we do to sick people under the rubric
of "modern medicine?" Linda
From k-cuno@uiuc.eduFri Sep 29 15:49:31 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 10:53:38 -0500
From: Kenneth Cuno
To: Juan R Cole
Subject: Re: favor
>
>
>Thanks, Ken. I appreciate it.
>
>I should think your knowledge and standing in the field more important
>than your rank; and if they don't, they're not the sort of people I want
>money from anyway.
>
>cheers Juan
>
>
Flattery will get you someplace, as Groucho used to say. I'll await the
proposal.
Ken
From s0a7254@tam2000.tamu.eduFri Sep 29 15:49:50 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 12:04:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: institutions and peyote
Dear Linda and All,
I think all Rick is asking is that we do not jump to conclusions.
The story is second hand as David mentioned originally - I don't
think it is right for us to assume that a Baha'i instituion has
done a wrong thing based on this kind of information. We would
certainly be troubled if an institution made a decision based on
information of similar quality. I for one do not think that
an NSA removes a person voting rights without serious thought.
Another issue about which I am confused is how open a discussion
can we have about individual pending cases - we certainly do not
want to go to the extreme of the Simpson case but I can see how
some cases can have a broader meaning to a community. I also think
that the individual involved should have a say - if I was ever in
a similar situation, I would not want people talking about it.
Maybe another way of discussing the issue is how a physician is
judged to be "competant". If a licensed medical doctor
perscribed Peyote for treatment, would it would be O.K.? - some
doctors perscribe Marajuana (illegal in the U.S.) to cancer
patients by special permission.
regards,
sAmAn
From Member1700@aol.comFri Sep 29 15:50:21 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 13:08:37 -0400
From: Member1700@aol.com
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: more on simplified Writings
Ahang-jan, of course you are right. As always!
We desperately need more simplified versions of our basic texts, not only
for children--but for adults as well.
Naturally, I would love to publish an illustrated version of The
Dawn-Breakers for children. And I will probably even contact Michael Sours
about it. But, I can tell you that the economics of trying to publish Baha'i
children's books is virtually impossible. They really have to be subsidized
by the community, because there is absolutely no way to make money (or even
break even) on them. GR, Kalimat, and even the BPT in Wilmette have all
learned that the hard, hard way.
We did put out the children's stories about 'Abdu'l-Baha a few years
back. Well, now quite a few years back. Though I can't afford to keep them
in print any more. There are still some available, though. Do your kids
like those? Or are they sick to death of them by now? Mine certainly are.
Other than that, good illustrated books for Baha'i children are slim
pickin's, and Baha'i parents are reduced to reading their children Bible
stories at night. Sigh.
Tony
From Member1700@aol.comFri Sep 29 15:51:02 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 13:39:29 -0400
From: Member1700@aol.com
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: An Open Judicial Process
Bravo, Linda! Or is it brava?
Anyway, I couldn't agree more. I do not think that secret trials are
anything that we should be endorsing or striving for in a future world.
Every democratic judicial system in the world operates in the full light of
day, and none of them seem to feel that their institutions are being
undermined by public scrutiny. Quite the contrary.
Now, there is another legacy of secret trials where the accused has no
rights (Sound familiar?), the proceedings are confidential, and so is the
outcome. Also, the public is supposed to accept the results of all trials as
just and wise, and not try to second guess the authorities--on pain of
sanctions. But that tradition of justice does have a rather ugly history,
now doesn't it?
Just which tradition of justice do Baha'is think they want to identify
themselves with?
Tony
From dan_orey@qmbridge.ccs.csus.eduFri Sep 29 15:51:49 1995
Date: 29 Sep 95 11:21:07 U
From: Dan Orey
To: burlb@bmi.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Gotta Crash Pad?
Reply to: RE>Gotta Crash Pad?
Burl Honey, As the resident member of the 10% club on our cyber campus, and
as a fellow admirer of "Priscilla Queen of the Desert", I had to make a comment
about Burl's latest.... "Barely Maninuff" slur! Tho I do not even have half
the nose for the position, nor access to his "taste" (ugh) in finery or music,
nor desire to accessorise, I do resemble this comment, and tho I did suggest
that we not use our name tags for the first get together, you will not
necessarily recognize me in that I do not wear fur, low cut dresses, and I have
always found heals to be very uncomnfortable (weak ankles) .....barely maninuf,
harumph - Daniel "we'll just see who can dress for
success" Orey, Sacramento - which is not even close to being the fashion
capital of the world, tho the republican ladies downtown try very hard with
their hair....
From richs@microsoft.comFri Sep 29 15:52:21 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 10:51:22 PDT
From: Rick Schaut
To: netmail! , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: institutions and peyote
Dear Linda and Friends,
>From:
>Rick, I wish that I could agree with you about not second guessing our
>"wonderful" institutions. Many of us did not become Baha'is so that we could
>turn off our minds and allow the Big Guys to take over for us. We
thought that
>we were all a part of the growth and development of this religion.
I believe the word I used was "beloved". That's more than just a simple
semantic translation. It implies a completely different attitude about
their decisions, growth and development--an attitude which is 180
degrees different from the attitudes of mistrust and self-guardedness
which prevail in present society.
Far from requiring us to shut our minds off, it requires us to spend time
thinking about the real validity of our gut-level reactions to what these
institutions do. To paraphrase Peter Kahn in his recent talk given in
Wilmette, any idiot can love an institution which is perceived to be
functioning well. The challenge, the real test, is to love an institution
which we believe is _not_ functioning well.
These are nascent institutions. They require nuturing as much as
any child would require. By loving them, and acting out of that
attitude of absolute, unconditional love, we can help them to grow.
If we criticize them, if we scoff at them, how are they to grow and
develop?
If we find ourselves wanting to rush out an picket the Hazirat'u'l Quds,
and I can, truly, identify with this feeling, we _know_ we have the wrong
attitude. At that point, it's time to stop and think.
Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut
From richs@microsoft.comFri Sep 29 15:52:31 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 11:16:17 PDT
From: Rick Schaut
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: An Open Judicial Process
Dear Friends,
>From:
> Just which tradition of justice do Baha'is think they want to identify
>themselves with?
How about a tradition of justice which follows the principles of
Baha'i Administration, the guidance of Shoghi Effendi and the
Covenant of Baha'u'llah?
Just a thought...
Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut
From derekmc@ix.netcom.comFri Sep 29 15:52:53 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 12:35:03 -0700
From: DEREK COCKSHUT
To: talisman@indiana.edu.I.noticed.sadly.the.remarks.by.'former'.Mystic.Langness.that.several
Subject: ABS and my Friend Burl's Tabble Manners
have indicated Burl had to mind his P's and Q's at ABS . Mountain folk
have a bit of a problem following you flatlanders ideas about
manners.As I previously posted Burl has his Diploma from Miss Mildred's
College of Young Mens Etiquitte and Manners , in fact modest chap he is
he never mentioned it was with honours . Few of us can claim to have
such a bit of paper. Now Burl is having problems with Britt over the
noblity of his intentions of coming to ABS.
I feel we should offer some suggestions over how to Burl can overcome
his situation.
1; He could take the Advanced short course at Miss Mildred's.that
covers things like shoe polishing in public , drinking tea out of a
saucer , how to deal with tummy rumbles , when to throw a bun and why ,
singing at Barry Manelow Concerts , cracking walnuts with your wisdom
teeth and wearing bright yellow and pink ties .
2; He could tell Britt that he will be staying with her on the Astral
plane but be with us physically.
3; Try the I am on a quest to find myself dear ploy.
4; Ask Rick to send him the Beth manual on public Manners , then he
could say this was the perfect chance to try it out.
5; Tell her he is actually a CIA agent and his country needs him
excuse.
6; Or he could promise to wash the Windows , do the Washing and Ironing
for a month if she lets him come.
7; Everybody on Talisman could E'mail Britt begging her to let Burl
come and play with us.
I think the last one is the Best myself.So Burl what do you think?
Kindest Regards Derek Cockshut
From S.N.Lambden@newcastle.ac.ukSat Sep 30 11:29:23 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 20:52:34 +0100
From: Stephen Lambden
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Surah of Joseph
[The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set]
[Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set]
[Some characters may be displayed incorrectly]
I was horrified and roused out of medically induced occultation
this evening when I received the rather garbled version of my earlier
posting (Thu, 27 Jul 1995) of the first sura of the Bab's *Qayyum al-asma*.
My Eudora 2.04 email package (commercial Mac version) includes a mail
transliteration feature but I must have done something wrong. Sorry that it
was'nt received in tact by everybody. I am posting it again devoid of full
transliteration. Soon I aill also post a very basic supplementary note on
the interpretation of the story of Joseph -- written for a UK Baha'i a
month or two ago.
Anyhow, I hope this does not go the way of my attempted posting on
the issue of the (so-called) `Imaginary Twelth Imam'. Just lately I have
again felt compelled to cut down on the volume of personal and other
emails. Erelong, I hope to post more of the suras of the *Qayyum al-asma*;
on the Divine Maiden, the Disconnected Letters; various provisional
translations and a complete translation of the *Khutba
al-Tutunjiya/Tatanjiya* ("Sermon of the Gulf") (spellings vary and are
uncertain) of Imam `Ali as requested by Moojan. Apologies also to those
friends whose correspondence has not been answered or been long delayed.
The situation with respect to BSB reprints and *Abha: A Journal of
Babi-Baha'i Studies* will also be clarified again.
Beloved Talismanians,
The 150th anniversary of the declaration of the Bab was celebrated
a short time ago.. It is sad that the initiatory divine revelation has
never been fully translated or made available -- until now! For some time
now I have been thinking of posting on Talisman my slightly revised 1986
completed provisional translation of the first sura (= Surat al-mulk, "The
Sura of the Dominion") of the Qayyum al-asma' ( = QA; mid 1844) of the Bab
-- those parts of this sura translated in SWB (authorized trans.) have been
worked in. It was believed to have been on the night of his declaration
that the Bab revealed this first sura before Mulla Husayn, the first
believer and `Letter of the Living'. This first sura contains 40 verses
which are indicated in square brackets.
In making this provisional translation I consulted various mss
including Browne F.11 (1891) and a mss dated 1323/1905-6 which seems to be
a copy of the very early mss dated 1261 (now Haifa IBA vi) in the hand of
Muhammad Mahdi ibn Karbala'i Shah Karam -- itself subsequently consulted.
If any of the learned Arabists on Talisman could point out errors I would
be very grateful.
Last time the declaration of the Bab was celebrated in Newcastle
(UK) I gave a talk about this first sura of the QA and had some of it read
in Arabic. Those present were fascinated to hear the words -- in Arabic and
English -- that the Bab first communicated to Mulla Husayn and which
inaugurated a new religious cycle.
* Provisional Translation *
I
The Sura of the Dominion (Surat al-Mulk)
In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.
[1] "ALL praise be to God Who hath, through the power of truth, sent down
this Book unto His servant, [the Bab] that it may serve as a shining light
for all mankind [SWB:41]." [2] This, in truth, in the estimation of God, is
the Exalted Path. It verily, stretcheth upright according to the truth
established in the Mother Book. And He is, in the Mother Book which is
before Us, assuredly one Exalted; one according to the Most Great Truth,
reckoned wise on the part of the All-Merciful. [3] He is the True One from
God according to the pure religion inscribed in the Mother Book in the
vicinity of the Mount (al-tur [Sinai]). [4] Verily, this is none other than
the sovereign Truth. "It is the Path of God (sirat Allah) which God hath
laid out for all that are in heaven and on earth. Let him then who will,
take for himself the right path unto his Lord. [5] Verily this is the true
Faith of God. And sufficient witness are God and such as are endowed with
the knowledge of the Book. [6] This is indeed the eternal Truth which God,
the Ancient of Days, hath revealed unto His Omnipotent Word (al-kalimat
al-akbar, lit. `Greatest Word'] -- He Who hath been raised up from the
midst of the Burning Bush (al-nar; lit. [Sinaitic] fire). [7] This is the
Mystery (al-sirr) which hath been hidden from all that are in heaven and on
earth, and, in this wondrous Revelation [lit. `according to the wondrous
Command' (al-amr al-badi`) it hath, in very truth, been set forth in the
Mother Book by the hand of God, the Exalted [SWB:41]."
[8] God, verily, hath decreed that this Book be divulged in interpretation
(tafsir) of the "Best of Stories" (ahsan al-qasas, see Qur'án 12:3) on the
part of Muhammad [= the occulted 12th Imam] son of Hasan [al-`Askari, 11th
Imam, d. c. 260/874] son of `Ali [al-Hadi, 10th Imam, d. c. 254/868] son of
Muhammad [al-Taqi, 9th Imam, d.c. 220/835] son of `Ali [al-Rida', 8th Imam,
d.c. 203/818] son of Musa [al-Kazim, 7th Imam, d.c. 183/799] son of Ja`far
[al-Sadiq, 6th Imam, d.c. 148/765] son of Muhammad [al-Baqir, 5th Imam,
d.c. 120/738?] son of `Ali [Zayn al-`Abidin, 4th Imám, d.c. 95/713] son of
Husayn [3rd Imam, d.c. 61/680] son of `Ali ibn Abi Talib [1st Imam, d.c.
40/661] unto His servant [= the Bab, d. 1266/1850] to the end that it might
be an eloquent Proof of God (Hujjat Allah) from the Remembrance (al-dhikr)
unto all the worlds. [9] God beareth witness as if through the testimony of
His own Self. He, verily, is the True One; no God is there except Him. So
too the angels (al-mala'ika) and the possessors of knowledge (ulu al-`ilm)
standing, as accords with justice, upright about the Remembrance
(al-dhikr); no God is there except Him. And God knoweth all things.
[10] The pure religion of this Remembrance (al-dhikr) is faultless (salim).
Whomsoever desireth [to identify with the true] Islam let such an one be
submissive unto this Command; for such shall God accord the status of
Muslim in the Holy Book (kitab al-abrar) according to the pure religion
worthy of praise [see Qur'an 3:18-19]. [12] And whomsoever disbelieveth in
Islam shall not have his deeds accepted by God on the Day of Resurrection;
not the least thing, as befits the Truth shall, in any way be accepted.
[13] Fitting it is that God burn him in the wondrous fire of God according
to the decree of the Book, sealed by the decree of the Gate (al-bab). [13]
There is none other God except Him; and God is acutely aware of the
believers. [14] There is none other God except Him; and God beareth witness
unto the believers. [15] There is none other God except Him; and God is
knowledgeable about the believers. [16] God, there is none other God except
Him. And God ['s knowledge] encompasseth all the worlds. [17] God will not
accept from anyone any deed except that from one who arriveth at the Gate
through the Gate (al-bab bi'l-bab), prostrate before God, the Ancient,
praiseworthy in the vicinity of the Gate (al-bab). [18] God hath, in very
truth given thee permission [to accomplish this]. So be prostrate and draw
nigh! for the [Sinaitic] Fire (al-nár) in the Point of Water (nuqtat
al-ma') is prostrate upon the earth before God, the True One, in very truth
made manifest.
[19]"O concourse of kings and of the sons of kings! Lay aside, one and all
[in truth, as befits the Truth], your dominion which belongeth unto God
[SWB:41]."
[20] "O king of Islam [lit. `king of the Muslims]! Aid thou, with the
truth, after having aided the Book, Him Who is Our Most Great Remembrance
(dhikrina al-akbar), for God hath, in very truth, destined for thee, and
for such as circle round thee, on the Day of Resurrection, a responsible
position in His Path [SWB:41]."
[21] "I swear by God, O Sháh [lit. O thou king]! By God! If thou showest
enmity unto Him Who is His Remembrance (al-dhikr), God will, on the Day of
Resurrection, condemn thee, before the kings, unto hell-fire, and thou
shalt not, in very truth, find on that Day any helper except God, the
Exalted. [22] Purge thou, O Sháh, the Sacred Land (al-ard al-muqaddasa)
from such as have repudiated the Book, ere the day whereon the Remembrance
of God (al-dhikr) cometh, terribly and of a sudden, with His potent Cause,
by the leave of God, the Most High. [23] God, verily, hath prescribed to
thee to submit unto Him Who is His Remembrance (al-dhikr), and unto His
Cause, and to subdue, with the truth and by His leave, the countries, for
in this world thou hast been mercifully invested with sovereignty, and
wilt, in the next, dwell, nigh unto the Seat of Holiness, with the inmates
of the Paradise of His good pleasure (jannat al-ridwan lit. `Garden of
Ridwán') [SWB:41-2]."
[24] "Let not thy sovereignty deceive thee, O Shah, for `every soul shall
taste of death,' [Q.3:182] and this, in very truth, hath been written down
as a decree of God [SWB:41]." [25] "Be thou content with the commandment of
God, the True One, inasmuch as sovereignty, as recorded in the Mother Book
by the hand of God, is surely invested in Him Who is the Remembrance (al-
dhikr) [SWB:42]."
[26] And [O kings!] give aid towards victory before God through thine own
selves and thy swords in the shade of the Most Great Remembrance (al-dhikr
al-akbar), for the sake of this pure religion which is, in very truth,
mighty.
[27] "O Minister of the Shah [lit. King]! Fear thou God, besides Whom there
is none other God but Him, the Sovereign Truth, the Just, and lay aside thy
dominion, for We, by the leave of God, the All Wise, inherit the earth and
all who are upon it [cf. Q.19:41], and He shall rightfully be a witness
unto thee and unto the Shah [lit. king]. [28] Were ye to obey the
Remembrance of God (al-dhikr) with absolute sincerity, We guarantee, by the
leave of God, that on the Day of Resurrection, a vast dominion shall be
yours in the eternal Paradise (lit. `Garden of Eden' jannat al-`adn). [29]
Vain indeed is your dominion, [O kings!], for God hath set aside earthly
possessions for such as have denied Him; for unto Him Who is your Lord
(lit. `Master') shall be the most excellent abode (lit. `is the best
return' hasan al-ma'ab), He Who is, in truth, the Ancient of Days
[SWB:42-3]." [30] With Us is an elevated dominion in the Garden of
Eternity (jannat al-khuld) [31] which We bestow upon such as We desire
among Our servants; such, that is, as are [established] in this Gate
(al-bab) by God and, in very truth, an upholder of His verses.
[32] "O concourse of kings! Deliver with truth and in all haste the verses
sent down by Us to the peoples of Turkey and of India, [33] and beyond
them, with power and with truth, to lands in both the East and the West
[SWB:43]."
[34] O servants of the All Merciful! God did not create you or provide for
you except with respect to a Cause which, in very truth, is mighty before
God in the Mother Book. [35] So follow ye that which God hath revealed unto
Us of the decrees of the Gate (al-bab) in this Book, submissive before God
and, in very truth, content with His Cause. [36] "And know that if ye aid
God, He will, on the Day of Resurrection, graciously aid you upon the
Bridge, (al-sirat) through Him Who is His Most Great Remembrance (al-dhikr
al-akbar) [SWB:43]." [37] "By God! If ye do well, to your own behoof will
ye do well; and if ye deny God and His signs [or `verses'], We, in very
truth, can well dispense with all creatures and all earthly dominion
[SWB:42]."
[38] "O people of the earth! Whoso obeyeth the Remembrance of God (dhikr
Allah) and His Book hath in truth obeyed God and His chosen ones and he
will, in the life to come, be reckoned in the presence of God among the
inmates of the Paradise of His good-pleasure (lit. `Garden of Riwan' jannat
al-ridwan) [SWB:43]." [39] We, verily, have set the mountains on earth in
motion as well as the stars above the [heavenly] Throne in the vicinity of
the [Sinaitic] Fire (al-nar) in the Pivot of Water (qutb al-ma'), this by
virtue of the Remembrance (al-dhikr), through God, the True One. Not any
one among you shall be left out [at the time of assembling for judgement;
see Qur'an 18:47f].[40] He is One Wrathful towards His servants. And God is
He Who knoweth all things.
* * * * * * * * *
P.S.
In 1986 I went through a phase of trying to translate one sura of
the QA per day. I finished 14 suras but then had to concentrate on
University teaching, doctoral thesis and various other things. I may now
attempt to do this again. A sura a day keeps the doctor away! I hopr to
publish an essay about the QA along with a provisional translation of the
first 10 suras in a forthcoming issue of the BSB.
Stephen N. Lambden
44 Queens Road, Jesmond,
Newcastle upon Tyne, NE2 2PQ
England. U.K.
Voice/Fax. +44 [0] 91. 2818597
Email S.N.Lambden@ncl.ac.uk
From rvh3@columbia.eduSat Sep 30 11:29:55 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 15:59:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: Rick Schaut
Cc: netmail! , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: institutions and peyote
On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Rick Schaut wrote:
> These are nascent institutions. They require nuturing as much as
> any child would require. By loving them, and acting out of that
> attitude of absolute, unconditional love, we can help them to grow.
> If we criticize them, if we scoff at them, how are they to grow and
> develop?
I think you have an important point, but there is also a significant
problem with this analogy. The institutions that may not be functioning
well are centers of power in the community. They are not analagous to
children, they are analagous to parents. That may not change the
appropraite response when they are not functioning properly, but it
certainly does change the description of the situation. Children can
hurt their parents with their criticisms, it is true, but parents are
capable of hurting their children far more.
Richard Hollinger
From margreet@margreet.seanet.comSat Sep 30 11:30:33 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 13:08:02 -0700
From: "Marguerite K. Gipson"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: UHJ goal on simplified Writings
Howdy from wet, soggy Pacific Northwest... the other side of the mountains
from our infamous Burl.... Thank you God! J/K. I am a great fan of his,
knowing him from just after his declaration.... Burl, tell us how you
married your wonderful Britt.....
Now my point...
When I was on pilgrimmage in 1985, I asked the question to Dr. David Ruhe
regarding the messages from the Universal House of Justice, and the level of
education needed sometimes to fully understand the words. Sometimes I have
to sit with a dictionary to decipher all the words.... and I am college
educated...(and about to become very street wise). I was asking for a
simpler version of their messages since most of the world does not have the
education background necessary. His reply was something to the effect that
we the people have to bring up our level of understanding to their level,
not the other way around. I understand it to be bringing about a level of
spiritual maturity and knowledge in raising it to that level.
However, like in Burl's case, I see no problem with someone wanting to
simplify prayers and such for challenged individuals, just the body is
challenged, not the soul. I have met his child, and he is very precious.
And it was pointed out the even if the mind/brain does not understand, the
soul does.
And one more thing.... I wish I could be at the ABS conference in SF...
Sounds like a rip-snorting good time..... dang!
Margreet
At 06:32 PM 9/28/95 -0400, Ahang Rabbani wrote:
>On page 3, of "The Major Objectives" documents, the House gives the
>following goal:
>
> "Produce simplified versions of the Sacred Scriptures, the
> writings of the Guardian and the statements of the
> Universal House of Justice."
>
>Also, if memory serves, at the conclusion of the Seven Year Plan,
>we sent you from the World Centre a substantial booklet that
>detailed the achievements of the Seven Year Plan -- you will find
>references to production of simplified Writings in Africa in that
>booklet.
>
>As to your experience, which I'm sorry to learn, I can only say
>that perhaps the particular approach taken did not meet with the
>approval of the House. For example, I remember when Mary Hardy
>simplified the Peace Statement, it was received very
>enthusiastically where a number of previous efforts were
>discourage.
>
>So, let's not give up. Not everyone in the world is a college
>grad. We owe it to the masses.
>
>All the best, ahang.
>
From richs@microsoft.comSat Sep 30 11:30:57 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 12:54:57 PDT
From: Rick Schaut
To: owner-talisman@indiana.edu, Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: An Open Judicial Process
I wrote:
>How about a tradition of justice which follows the principles of
>Baha'i Administration, the guidance of Shoghi Effendi and the
>Covenant of Baha'u'llah?
I should clarify this a bit. I don't intend to quash discussion of
the issues. My suggestion is that we base our understanding
of Justice in Baha'i Administration on the Covenant and the
guidance of the leading institutions of our Faith. If we think
that the handling of specific cases should be open to criticism,
then we should base this notion on a well-grounded
understanding of the Writings of the Faith, and on _nothing_
else.
Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut
From richs@microsoft.comSat Sep 30 11:31:31 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 13:30:25 PDT
From: Rick Schaut
To: rvh3@columbia.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: institutions and peyote
Dear Richard and Friends,
>From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
>I think you have an important point, but there is also a significant
>problem with this analogy. The institutions that may not be functioning
>well are centers of power in the community. They are not analagous to
>children, they are analagous to parents.
This may be an outcropping of my general "what can I do"
attitude vs. an attitude of "what should the institutions do" attitude.
There is, certainly, a co-nurturing relationship between
individuals and institutions. While it is appropriate to note that
institutions should adopt a nurturing attitude, I, personally, can't
do much about that unless I'm serving on an institution.
Regardless of what the institutions might do, I still am bound by
my half of that co-nurturing relationship. In a sense, I have to take
on a parent's role if an institution isn't functioning properly. I think
it would be inappropriate for me to assume the role of a rebelious
child in response to _anything_ an institution might say or do.
So, the parent-child relationship describes the nurturing
attitude that people in each position, be that as an individual or
as a member of an institution, should adopt in their dealings
with people in the other position.
Lastly, as we explore this notion of nurturing institutions to higher
levels of functionality, it's important to remember that individuals
are not alone. The institutions of the learned stand ready to advise,
inspire and guide all of us in our endeavors. It is their job, and we
should do everything in our power to help them do that job.
Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut
From PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.eduSat Sep 30 11:33:43 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 14:33:02 PST8PDT
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: report from Arizona, was: RE: institutions and peyote
Hi,
Please see the appended private message from one of the friends
that is peripheral to, but somewhat familiar with the specific
situation. This friend has had a *lot* of social and work related
contact with both Baha'i and non-Baha'i Native Americans, and
is unusual: became a Baha'i after being taught by Native American
Baha'is.
The topic of "recreational" use vs. "medicinal use" is obviously
a very thorny one and I was reminded of some stories I have heard
that bear on the ~most challenging issue~ and the need for
administrative sensitivity about cultural issues.
Seem that a central issue is: whose cultural definition of
"medicinal use" dominates? Can the institutions insist that
indigenous Baha'is who follow tribal traditions accept the
non-native society's definition? If not, what sort of chaos can
we expect as various claims are put forward about why certain
groups should be exempt from rules?
If either side decides to draw a line in the sand and dare the
other side to cross it, this stuff is going to blow up in the
community's face (or has it already happened?).
I have a feeling that due to the broader problems between Native
American Baha'is and the general community/administration, this
peyote thing isn't going to be easy to deal with.
Boo Hoo,
EP
> Date sent: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 15:59:56 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
> To: Rick Schaut
> Copies to: netmail! , talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: RE: institutions and peyote
...snip
> problem with this analogy. The institutions that may not be functioning
> well are centers of power in the community. They are not analagous to
> children, they are analagous to parents. That may not change the
> appropraite response when they are not functioning properly, but it
> certainly does change the description of the situation. Children can
> hurt their parents with their criticisms, it is true, but parents are
> capable of hurting their children far more.
>
> Richard Hollinger
>
>
*********** Appended Text ***********
:
: Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 12:53:25 -0700 (MST)
: From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
: Subject: Re: Franklin Kahn's Rights
: To: PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.edu
:
:
: Eric:
: Anything I can tell you is _purely_ hearsay. First of all I'd
: lie to say that if peyote is used medicinally per the F. Kahn
: email. That is, I'd like to say. That seems different than
: 'recreational' peyote use. Of course, someone doing sweats and
: administering peyote, or someone participating in a Native
: American Church healing will tell you that they are all healing
: and medicinal. There has been an ongoing debate regarding peyote
: use by Navajo and other Baha'is for years. All I ever heard was
: the Kahns lost their voting rights. Nobody knew any underlying
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: facts except it had to do with peyote and disagreement over
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: administrative issues.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:
: We've had literally nothihing to do with NABI and that part of
: the world since 1991. Its criminal too. We worked a lot with
: the Kahns, and had contact with wonderful people because
: of that friendship. This is all I know.
:
: --
: xxxxxxxxxxxxx
: xxxxxxxxxxxxx
: Phoenix, AZ xxxxx
: (xxx) xxx-xxxx
:
From TLCULHANE@aol.comSat Sep 30 11:35:28 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 18:51:57 -0400
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Pluralism and Covenants
Dear Friends ,
I have a couple of non -rhetorical questions and speculations with
regard to Chris's recent post on pluralism and the Guardians comments in WOB
P. 57-58 and Rick's comments about judicial systems and what he referred to
as the "Covenant of Baha'u'lllah".
First pluralism .
Is the Guardian really describing a situation of puralism here ?
Perhaps my difficulty is in how I understand puralism . As I understand
pluralism there are a number of equally valid but non dominant systems ,
communities etc. So far so good . What is usually left out is an underlying
*system * which integrates the plurality of communities . It seems to me the
Guardian assumes that the Faith of Baha'u'llah is that underlying *system *
which validates and integrates the truths of plurality . When I consider the
statement from WOB p57-58 with WOB p114 in the *Dispensation* letter ." It
regards them in no other light except as different stages in the eternal
history and constant evolution of one religion , Divine and indivisible if
which itself forms but an integral part . " and then from the *Unfoldment*
letter p. 163 " The Revelation of Baha'u'llah . . .should be viewed not
merely as yet another revival in the ever -changing fortunes of mankind, not
only as a further stage in a chain of progressive revelations, nor even as
the culmination of one of a series of recurrent prophetic cycles, but marking
the last and highest stage of man's collective life on this planet ."
These two statements dont exhaust the possibilities but they seem
representative of a a pattern in the Guardians thought which seems different
to me than pluralism. Maybe I am answering my own question by noting I think
there is a difference between the Revelation of Baha'u llah and the Bahai
Community.
My second question is related to Rick Schaut's reference to judicial
systems and which kind we should want in response to a question posed by Tony
. This is another non-rhetorical question . What exactly do you mean when
you say the "Covenant of Baha'u'llah" with respect to a judicial process ? I
know we use this word a lot . I must confess it has come to have little
meaning for me because it is used in so many contexts and so many ways I no
longer know what is being referenced . Perhaps we could discuss this calmly
and in a spirit of search for truth to help me understand what Baha'is mean
when they say * Covenant*. I have some sense of this with respect to Judaic
meaning of that term ; I have a sense of what the Puritans meant by it with
their distinction between a "covenant of grace" and a " covenant of
redemption". I just dont know anymore what we mean as Baha'i's when we say it
From burlb@bmi.netSat Sep 30 11:38:14 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 16:19 PDT
From: Burl Barer
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Cat Gives Life for ABS
My dear cat, Katmandu -- since the surgery he was more accurately described
as Katmankant -- was euthenized (killed by lethal injection) at 2:30 this
afternoon. I brought him home and buried his still warm body in the back
yard. I had that cat for 14 years and, despite his repugnant personality,
I had grown rather attatched to him. But he gave his life for a good cause
-- the ABS. You see, he had run up a vet bill of over $263.00 in just the
past 3 days and was not getting much better, poor thing. He was not a happy
cat. Were I to prolong his earthly life (the only one he had), he might have
lived a while longer, but the cost of keeping that old thing alive was
becoming prohibitive. So...we nuked him and ditched his furry remains,
wrapped in a mini-hefty bag, out behind the garage. I would have said a
prayer, but since he didn't have a soul, why bother?
Well, as you can tell, it touched my heart and squeezed my tear ducts to
shovel that dirt on his curled up little cat body. Britt, sensing my
sadness, changed the subject. "What about the ABS thing in S.F."
"Oh," said I, sniffing weepily, "Juan Ricardo Cole says I can crash in his
room and the airfare is dirt cheap if I drive to Seattle the night before.
In fact, it costs less to fly to SF than it does to KILL YOUR PET CAT!"
Guess what? I get to go to the ABS! YAY!
Britt thinks its good that I'm rooming with Juan because he can tell me to
behave myself in more than one language and is smart enough to know that I
don't really have any leather clad 16 year old twins as long lost cousins.
So, if your coming to San Francisco, you're sure to meet some gentle people
there. And one smarty-pants author hawking his book in the hallways. :-)
Burl
From momen@northill.demon.co.ukSat Sep 30 11:39:06 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 22:28:44 GMT
From: Wendi and Moojan Momen
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: UHJ goal on simplified Writings
Ahang Rabbani writes:
> On page 3, of "The Major Objectives" documents, the House gives the
> following goal:
>
> "Produce simplified versions of the Sacred Scriptures, the
> writings of the Guardian and the statements of the
> Universal House of Justice."
>
> As to your experience, which I'm sorry to learn, I can only say
> that perhaps the particular approach taken did not meet with the
> approval of the House. For example, I remember when Mary Hardy
> simplified the Peace Statement, it was received very
> enthusiastically where a number of previous efforts were
> discourage.
I understand what you are saying and it was exactly such thoughts that
made me try to do this. But the distinct impression I got from the
response of the World Centre is that simplified versions of the
Scriptures in English was not what they had in made (the Peace
Statement is not scripture). Anyway, I do not want to make a big
production out of this. All I wanted to do is to alert anyone who is
thinking of doing anything along these lines that it may be as well
to seek clarification of is meant before dedicating too much time to
it.
Moojan
--
Wendi and Moojan Momen
momen@northill.demon.co.uk
Tel./Fax: (44) 1767 627626
From momen@northill.demon.co.ukSat Sep 30 11:39:34 1995
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 95 00:26:04
From: Wendi and Moojan Momen
To: talisman@ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Conference on Baha'i Women's History
Last Sunday there was held in London the official launch of Rob
Weinberg's book on Ethel Rosenberg.
This took the form of a brief meeting at the grave of Ethel followed by
a conference on Baha'i Women's History.
Lil Abdo gave a presentation on the connections between the early
British Baha'i women and such social and religious movements as the
Suffragettes and Theosophy. (Someone was asking Paul Johnson a few
weeks ago about connections between the Theosophists and Baha'is in
England before Abdu'l-Baha's arrival. The answer is that A.P. Sinnett
was a close friend of Lady Blomfield)
Rob Weinberg gave a talk on Ethel herself based on his book
Hilary Freeman made a presentation on Dorothy Baker
Wendi Momen gave a preliminary analysis of women's participation on
Baha'i institutions.
Moojan
--
Wendi and Moojan Momen
momen@northill.demon.co.uk
Tel./Fax: (44) 1767 627626
From friberg@will.brl.ntt.jpSat Sep 30 11:40:49 1995
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 95 10:02:37 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: institutions and peyote
Dear Linda:
> Having lived
> on the Navajo Reservation in my youth, I have great appreciation for the
> ceremonials and healing rituals of these people and scoff at anyone - or any
> institution (I'm sorry to offend so many Talismanians by these words) that
> would deprecate such cultural practices. How extraordinarily hypocritical it
> is of any of us to criticize such things.
Scoff on if you enjoy it. But honestly, I don't have the slightest
idea what you are talking about.
Nobody has been depreciating the use of "peyote" in Native-American
medical healing ceremonies on Talisman as far as I can tell, although
there has been some discussion of various rulings from the institutions.
As far as I can tell, peoples main concerns are several: there is
great concern about the privacy of the people involved, and even
greater concern about the spread of rumors on the basis of incorrect
information.
We all must be careful, I believe, not to cause a stir about something
that is not happening.
Yours respectfully,
Stephen R. Friberg
From PXQ00435@niftyserve.or.jpSat Sep 30 11:42:04 1995
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 10:36:00 +0900
From: "K. BABB"
To: TALISMAN@indiana.edu
Subject: ABS CONFERENCE ENVY
For those dear Talismanians who get the chance to pick
up Burl's book MAN OVERBOARD at the ABS conference, you
are in for a real treat. The old agage, "Fact can be stranger
than fiction," is proven beyond a doubt. Had it not been
printed unambiguously on the fly leaf of the jacket that
the book was non-fiction, I would right now be proclaiming
our friend Burl a second-rate novelist, for the twists and turns
are just too coincidental, too fantastic. But this man Phil
Champagne truly did live the life must of us baby-boomers
fantasize about than say with a shrug, "Naw, it only happens in
the movies."
Burl's creativity comes with the telling. The narrative
is guaranteed not to bore. Whereas a man's life is oftentimes
recounted in a straight chronological order, Burl keeps the reader
turning pages with his episodal style, first-hand dialogue from
many of the participants. Indeed, if you are looking for a
scholastic thesis, you are bound for disappointment, there is very
little of the author's voice or comment. The vast past of the
book is dialogue. This is definitely one of the things that makes
the book interesting---don't we all love to peek at other people's
diaries? Our Mr. Barer then connects all of this with brief but
unquestionably clever transitions, frequently through the use of
association.
"I'd heard the story about how a former waitress
named Barb had a wealthy boyfriend build her this
restaurant," explains Robertson. "My friend was
showing me around the bar while my wife, Bobbi,
waited for our table. I walked in, looked around,
and saw a man standing there who looked exactly
like my old friend and client, Phil Champagne. As
I went to approach him, he turned on his heels and
went into a back office. When I returned to Bobbi,
she said I looked as if I had seen a ghost. I told
her I believed I had."
The apparition may have been Mr. Moneybags
to the locals, but he was Mr. Useless around the
restaurant.
"I could see that he couldn't tend bar and
he couldn't cook or wait tables . . ." says Barb. . .
There are even pictures, reproductions of photographs and documents
for those skeptics amongst us.
But it is not a book that you can keep on the nightstand
and pick it up every now and then before dosing off to sleep. It is
a style that demands to be read straight through. And its 182 pages
of easy prose makes that possible; a perfect book to read on a flight,
say from San Franciso to New York . . . ?
Oh, by the way, get Bad Mannered Burl to show you his indirect usage
of a Baha'i prayer!
********************
Rob's paying for dinner? Wish I had known that LAST year! :-}
Well, I guess my heart (and tears) will have be with you all at
table. Derek, try to keep Sherman home, will you?
Love, Kathleen
From dann.may@s-box.misc.uoknor.eduSat Sep 30 11:43:15 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 21:33:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: dann.may@s-box.misc.uoknor.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Living BUDDHISM
I would like to respond to the discussion of the so-called death of
Buddhism. First, as a Baha'i of some 20 years, I find of all the other
religions I have studied (and for that matter, taught in university
classes) that Buddhism most attracts my continued interest. I agree with
Bruce that it is a rich, vital and compelling approach to living on this
planet. For instance, whenever I take my students on field trips to the
local Buddhist temple, I also take my thirteen year old daughter, who
always comes away from the experience ready to convert to Buddhism. Her
reasons, the rich, beautiful and profound effect that the various Buddhism
images and sacred objects have upon her. She, as well as I, feel a sense of
the sacred, something that seems to be lacking at the various Baha'i
centers we have visited, and found within the Baha' Faith, only in the
shrines in Haifa.
It is my humble opinion that most Baha'is (myself included) approach other
religions and their development through history in a far too simplistic and
"Baha'i-centric" fashion. At the same time, I find that is always easier to
indentify another culture's use of myths, metaphors, propoganda,
exclusivism, etc., it is almost impossible to see one's own. The issue for
me is not whether Buddhism, or any other tradition, is dead or alive, but
how we interpret and understand its doctrines, terminology and conceptual
system -- especially when we recognized tremendous variation of thought
even within any particular tradition? As Wilfred Cantwell Smith has so
aptly put it, we need to speak not of Christianity, but of the
Christianities, not of Buddhism, but of the Buddhisms, hence his avoidance
of the use of the word "religion" and his use instead of the word
"tradition" in referring to the various ways of approaching the sacred, or
real, or whatever term is currently in vogue.
Warmest greetings, Dann.May@s-box.misc.uoknor.edu
---
* WR 1.31 # 669 * To admit ignorance is to exhibit wisdom. --A. Montagu
From burlb@bmi.netSat Sep 30 11:43:54 1995
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 20:10 PDT
From: Burl Barer
To: DEREK COCKSHUT
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Books for Bucks
Dereck said: "I need you to train Christopher Buck in how to sell his book.
poor lad thinks people buy a book on its merits , but you and I know different"
Burl says:
No kidding! If a book sold on the basis of merit, the Kitab-I-Iqan would
be at the top of the New York Times Bestsellers list. The trick to selling
books is charm, grace, affrontery, guile, manipulation, threats, promises,
flirting, begging, and shameless promotion -- in other words, the same way
flash in the pan religious movements gain revolving door adherants. No book
sells on the basis of merit for the simple reason that the merit is not
revealed until the book is read, and the book is not read until after it is
sold. So, the sale comes before any recognition of merit, just as
declaration comes before consecration. Agree to buy the book, read the book,
and if you don't like it....too bad for you; royalty for me. Of course, I
would not write a book unless I believed the act was meritorious. Hence,
anyone who purchases a book written by Burl Barer is assured that the author
believed that what he was doing was meritorious. Then again, the woman who
hit Baha'u'llah in the face with a brick thought what she was doing was
meritorious.
Even though Juan is allowing me to curl up on top of the TV in his room,
this is still a financial sacrifice and therefor I request prayers that the
big shots in Hollywood currently debating about buying movie rights to my
latest book come through with cosmic bucks for yours truely. With fire we
test the gold, and with gold we pay for Burl's credit cards. Hmmmm my
pocketbook is feeling a bit warm...
Burl
>
>
From S.N.Lambden@newcastle.ac.ukSat Sep 30 11:51:46 1995
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 12:33:12 +0100
From: Stephen Lambden
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: JOSEPH IN THE QAYYUM AL-ASMA'
[The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set]
[Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set]
[Some characters may be displayed incorrectly]
Hi Talsimanites,
This is a very basic note on the Joseph story in the QA originally written
for a UK Baha'i.
The Joseph story is a narrated in slightly differing forms in both the
Bible (Gen 37ff) and the Qur'án (sura 12). There are also ancient Jewish,
Christian and Islamic elaborations of parts or the whole of the story.The
Quranic version is influenced by extra-Biblical Jewish traditions
expository of the Biblical account.
Babi-Baha'i scripture interprets the Qur'anic version -- or this version as
partly rewritten by the Bab in his lengthy Arabic Qayyum al-asma' ((mid.
1844; loosely translated = "The Self-Subsisting Names" -- possibly alluding
to the promised one as the *Qayyum* or [for Baha'is] the Deity
Self-Subsisting = Baha'u'llah)...
The Qayyum al-asma' (= QA) is in 111 chapters-- each chapter expositoty of
a verse of the Qur'an -- each with 40 verses. Throughout these 111 chapters
only a few verses interpret the Qur'anic Joseph story. This largely by
means of exegetical rewrite. cf. the Jewish Targums. The interpretation is
complex and imamologically oriented- relates to the Twelver Imams -- as
well as having something of a qabbalistic dimension. The role of the the
3rd Imam, Husayn who was expected (like Jesus) to return is particually
important.
The Bab's initial remarks on the Qur'anic story of Joseph are to be found
in the 5th chapter of the QA where the vision of Jospeh is allegorically
interpreted (see Qur'an 12:4f). It is said that by "Joseph" God intended
the spiritual "Reality" or "Self" (nafs) of the Prophet Muhammad and the
"fruit of the womb of the Virgin" (Muhammad's daughter Fatimih), namely,
Imam Husayn. The "sun", the "moon" and the eleven "stars" seen by Joseph (
= Imam Husayn) are Muhammad ("sun"), Fatimih ("moon") and the 11 Imams
("stars").
The Bab's interpretation of the Joseph story in the QA operates on
several levels at once. The interpretation has meaning relative to Shi`i
Islam, the Bab's mission and the advent of the Babi messiah man
yuzhiruhu'llah ("Him Whom God will make manifest" = Baha'u'llah).
There is also a Baha'i interpretation of the story in which Joseph's
initially dire fate and rejection by his brothers relates to the life of
Baha'u'llah and his rejection by his half-brother Mirza Yahya.
A more complex set of notes culled from a forthcoming BSB volume
will follow. The QA is such a wonderful work. It is totally entrancing.
Much more than a `Joseph Commentary' sigbificant though thgis aspect
undoubtedly is.
Stephen N. Lambden
44 Queens Road, Jesmond,
Newcastle upon Tyne, NE2 2PQ
England. U.K.
Voice/Fax. +44 [0] 91. 2818597
Email S.N.Lambden@ncl.ac.uk
From S.N.Lambden@newcastle.ac.ukSat Sep 30 11:59:22 1995
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 12:33:58 +0100
From: Stephen Lambden
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: JOSEPH IN THE QA (FROM BSB)
Hi,
I hope my QA sura 1 trans. came across alright this time. There follows a
few notes re: the Bab's interpretation of the Joseph story. This is
complex and multi-faceted; exegetical and eisegetical, typological and
imamological, qabbalistic and quasi-messianic, etc. What follows is an
extract from a forthcoming BSB article.I realize that this material is a
bit complicated. Hope it does not confuse too much. A very basic summary
will follow.
much love, Steve
The Bab's Qayyum al-asma* (= QA) -- not a commentary in the classical
sense of *tafsir* -- contains a great deal which has no direct connection
with the story of Joseph as detailed in the 12th sura of the Qur'an. When,
usually briefly and towards the end of (but by no means all of) the 112
chapters of this work, the Bab turns his attention to the story of Joseph,
he most often rewrites a specific Qur'anic verse (contained in sura 12) in
an abstruse manner and by utilizing a typological and qabbalistic
hermeneutic gives it various levels of meaning. The esoteric significance
which the Bab writes into the Qur'anic story of Joseph partly has to do
with the rank and relationship between the Imams -- in particular Imam
Husayn as an antitype of Joseph --and the position of the Hidden Imam or
Dhikr. On another level, the Joseph story enshrines qabbaliatic mysteries.
The Bab furthermore, finds reference to his own rank and role in the
Qur'anic narrative.
Several levels or dimensions of meaning are thus read into (= eisegesis)
the story of Joseph such that it would seem impossible to extract from the
Bab's multi-dimensional often eisegetical, imamological and
quasi-messsianic "tafsir" a clear cut and single level of meaning.
The following few notes must suffice to give some idea of the Bab's
rewritten treatment of the twelfth sura of the Qur'an.
The Bab's initial remarks on the Qur'anic story of Joseph are found in
the Vth chapter of the QA where the vision of Joseph (see 12:4f) is
allegorically expounded. Among other things, it is asserted that God
intends by Joseph the "Self" (nafs) of the Messenger (= Muammad) and the
"fruit of the [womb of the] Virgin" (thamarat al-batul = Fatima, i.e. Imam
Husayn). The sun, moon and
eleven stars seen by Joseph (= Imam Husayn) in his vision, symbolize
Fatima, Muhammad and the eleven Imams (presumably `Ali --> Hasan al-Askari;
see Q.12:7) who, along with Joseph are also
representative of the 12
letters of the
*kalimat al-tawhid* (= the 12 letters of la ilaha ila Allah ) -- in
chapter VIII (on Q.12;7) the Bab has it that God chose Joseph (= Imam
Husayn) for the letter al-ha' and alludes to his (Imam Husayn's?)
eschatological advent.
Complicated qabbalistic speculations inform the Bab's exegetical
rewrites of Qur'an 12:8f. In the IXth chapter of the QA (on 12:10) the
favoured position of Joseph is related to the exaltedness of a letter
concealed and veiled in mystery (the letter *alif* ( the letter A ) or the
line below the dot of the letter B ?) and the reference to Joseph's
brothers as a " group" (`usbat, in 12:8b) leads the Bab to speak of the
prophet Muhammad (as the *nafs* of God or the letter alif?) being the "
grades" (shu`un) of Joseph (as the alphabetic primogenitor of the other
letters of the alphabet?). Qur'an 12:10 as rewritten by him in QA XI is
related to the fate of Imam Husayn. The spokesman of Joseph's brothers is
not Reuben but Imam Hasan the brother of Imam Husayn who cries out: ` Do
not slay Joseph. Cast him into the depths of the pit of the divine unicity
(jubb al-ahadiya) concealed about the [Siniatic] Fire." Having explained
this the Bab, alluding to Qur'an 12:9, states that God decreed a "caravan"
(siyarat) of travellers for Joseph who, according to a hidden wisdom,
"travel from gate to gate" (min bab ila bab; cf. Q. 12:67 ) in the region
of the Siniatic Fire. They are likened to pilgrims who visit the
(celestial) Husayn and who journey from "the gate (al-bab) unto God in the
abyss of the divine unicity" (lujjat al-ahadiya).
The Qur'anic narrative of the circumstances of Joseph's abandonment by
his jealous brothers is, in QA Xf (on Q.12:9f), related on one level to the
circumstances surrounding the martyrdom of Imam Husayn as detailed in Shi`i
literature. A cosmological and qabbalistic level of meaning is also present
as is a level of application to the rank and role of the Bab himself. In
chapter XI of his commentary the Bab writes:
"God created Joseph and his brothers (= certain letters of the
alphabet?) in sanctified worlds (al-`awalim al-quds) from a dewdrop (or
sprinkling rashh) above a name (ism),from a primordial drop (qatrat
al-ibda') of the (pre-) existent [heavenly] Water [= `cosmic semen'?].
Then, when We caught a fragrance of the Greatest Dhikr, We, with the
permission of God, clothed him in the robe of prophethood..".
In the same chapter of the QA, as well as in chapter XX, the Bab
clearly refers to himself as the one to whom the "caravan of love"
(siyyarat al-hubb) was sent (cf.Q 12: ); as the "Arabian Youth" (al-fati
al-`arabi) concealed in the depths of the pit (al-jubb) of the Siniatic
Fire.
A good example of the Bab's rewritten exegetical ("midrashic") style,
is his treatment of Qur'an 12:31 in QA
chapter XXXII (fol.52b-53a). Here
it is not that Zulaikha arranges a banquet at which the angelic beauty of
Joseph is disclosed to her lady friends, but a prefigurement of the courage
and love of Zaynab (the sister of Imam Husayn) who asks her brother to
disclose his celestial glory. On another level the same verse alludes to a
banquet on the "crimson heights" at which "green knives" are dispensed (for
the annihilation of the lower self?) and at which (?) God will bid the
hidden Imam disclose his beauty unto the creatures.
In such manner does the Bab allude to his imminent eschatological
disclosure of the hidden Imam and to his own role as his mouthpiece. In QA
XXXIII (on Q.12:32) it is the ladies of the "city of oneness" (madinat
al-ahadiya) who cut their hands (see Q. 12:31) as a result of the
spiritual
"beauty" of the Bab.
Commenting on Q. 12:33 in QA XXXIV (fol. 56a-b) the Bab puts the words
of Joseph into the mouth of Husayn who, he teaches, cried out on the night
of his martyrdom, "This prison is more beloved to me than that to which you
invite me". The two youths imprisioned with Joseph according to Q. 13:36f
(the king's cupbearer and baker) are, on one level, interpreted in QA
XXXVIIf. (fol. 69af)
as types of the believer (= the cupbearer) and the unbeliever (= the baker)
in the Dhikr (= the Bab or the Hidden Imam). The latter, among other
things, is also identified with the "full camel's load" of grain (Q.12:65;
QA. LXVI fol.115a) and symbolically associated with the king's goblet
(siqayat) hidden in the sack of Benjamin (see Q.12:70; QA LXXI.fol.125b).
In the light of the Bab's role as "gate" to the hidden Imam, it is of
interest that the Bab identifies himself with the "brother of Joseph" (=
Benjamin) mentioned in Qur'an 12:87 (in QA LXVIII.fol.152bf) and rewrites
Qur'an 12:67 in the following manner
(in QA. LXVIII.fol.119 ):
"O People of the earth! Do not enter the gates (al-abwab) by one [and
the same/or any] gate (bab ). But enter every gate (kull al-abwab) through
this gate (al-bab = the Bab himself)..".
Of similar import is the following version of Qur'an 12:90 (in
QA.XC.fol.158b) in which talismanic terminology is utilized with a view to
expressing the intimate relationship between the Bab and the hidden Imam:
" O Qurrat al-`Ayn! [= Imam Husayn or the hidden Imam?]. The people of
the realm of Unknowing (al-`ama') will say: `Art thou indeed the Joseph of
the divine onenes (yusuf al-ahadiya)?" Say:`Yea, By my Lord! I am the
fourfold form (shakl al-rub`) in the Joseph of origination (yusuf al-bad`)
and this is my brother, the threefold form (shakl al-thulth) in the shape
of finality (? surat al- khatm = the Bab?). God hath graciously bestowed
upon me [= the Bab?) the double mystery (al-sirrayn) in the two
[Siniatic] Mounts (al- turayn) and the dual names (al-ismayn) in the two
luminaries (al-nayyirayn). God will not suffer the reward of such righteous
ones as believe in the Bab and are steadfast in the Book to be lost, even,
in very truth, to the extent of a speck on a date stone."
In certain of his works and letters written after the QA the Bab gives
yet further dimensions of meaning to Qur'anic texts and traditions
(ahadith) in which Joseph is mentioned. When he claimed to be the Qa'im he
identified himself with the true Joseph.
In a qabbalistic-talismanic and SinaiticIn context in QA sura 91 the
Bab is addressed as follows,
O Qurrat al-`Ayn! Thou [= the Bab], verily, wast concealed in the
Jesus-like Word (al-kalimat al-`isawiyun) in the Injil ("Gospel") and the
Zabur ("Psalms") according to the form of the "Glorification" (`ala surat
al-tasbih = "Subhan Allah"). Say: `I am the triangular (`threefold',
muthallath) form [= `Ali?] which was written down quadrangular
(`fourfold', murabba` = Husayn?) in the sanctum of the Divine Cloud (fi'l
quds al-`ama'; cf. the hidden Imam Husayn = Joseph?). And I, verily, am the
inaccessible Name (al-ism al-mani`) which was made single in the Point of
Fire (nuqtat al-nar = the Point beneath the ba'?)...".
While Jesus is the "Word" of the Qur'an, the Bab is the "Jesus-like
Word" of the QA. The "Jesus-like Word" here probably has a deep qabbalistic
meaning relating to the Bab and his claims and to the mystery of the
"Greatest Name" (on one level = Allah; cf. the name `Ali and its
constituent letters?) which the expected Qa'im is to divulge.
In QA 90 the Bab claims Divinity and states "I, verily, created
Gardens for the people of love (ahl al-muabbat) from my Word (kalimati)
which, in very truth, is this `Alid, Arabian Youth..."
In certain writings of the Bab the word *qayyum* [loosely,
`self-subsisting'] synomyous with Qa'im (see for example, Letter of the Bab
to Hajji Mirza Sayyid `Ali, in INBAMC 58:176). The words Yusuf (Joseph) and
Qayyum (`Self-Subsisting') have the same numerical (abjad) value, i.e. 156.
As the return of Husayn (see for example Persian Bayan VII:1;IV:4,5, cf.
Dala'il-i sab`a (Per.), 49) the Bab is also the Divine/Self-Subsisting
Joseph.
*Joseph = Husayn= Qayyum = Man yuhiruhu Allah
The Bab equates Joseph with the Imam Husayn. This in the light of his
belief in his imminent eschatological "return" (raj`a) and his role as the
"gate" (bab) to the hidden Imam. Subsequent to his transference to
Adhirbayjan he claimed to be both the Mahdi-Qa'im and the Divine-Joseph
(qayyum-
yusuf). Towards the end of his ministry, he furthermore, came to see
Joseph as a type of the Babi messiah *man yuhiruhu'llah* ("He whom God
shall make manifest") whom he, in his *Kitab al-asma'* ("Book of Names")
(1849-50) refers to as "all-glorious Joseph" (yusuf al-baha'). The
reference is in that section of the*Kitab al-asma'* commenting upon the
name of God *al-Bashir* ("the Herald"). There mention is made to the robe
or garment of the Joseph of Baha'. This pasage has been interpreted by
Ishraq Khavari relative to
Baha'u'llah as the Babi messiah figure *man yuhiruhu'llah * (see Ishraq
Khavaria, QI 4:1870ff) -- note the use of the word bashiar ("bearer/herald
of good tidings") in Q.12:93 where the episodeof Joseph's garment being
placed on the face of the patriach Jacob/Israel restoring his vision --
"But when the bearer of good tidings [bashir] came to him, and laid it [the
qamis, "robe\garment") on his [Jacob's] face [wajhihi], forthwith he saw
once again..". It is this Qur'anic verse which lies behind the Bab's
exegetical rewrite of it in the K. al-asma';
"Hearken! Then take ye firm hold of the garment of the Joseph of Baha'
(qamis yusif al-baha') from the hand of His Exalted, Transcendent Herald of
Glad Tidings (mubashshirihi al-`ali al-a`la). And place it upon thy head in
order that thou might recover thy sight (or `be endowed with insight' ) and
discover thyself truly aware." (text as cited in QI 4:1875).
This later quasi-eschatological level of the Bab's interpretation of
the story of Joseph has, by Baha'ias, been read back into the QA.
At least three chronologically successive, typologically oriented
interpretations of the Joseph story can thus be found in the Bab's
writings;
1) An interpretation in which Joseph = Imam Husayn (and the Arabic
letter al-ha') and the Bab, the Dhikr, etc. This is dominant in the QA (see
for example QA chapters V.,XXXII., XXXIV and XC).
2) An interpretation in which Joseph is identified with the Bab
himself as the imprisoned Qa'im and,
3) An interpretation in which Joseph = man yuhiruhu'llah the Babi
messiah figure -- in one sense of returned Imam Husayn -- "Jacob" being
the Babis who long to attain his presence.
These chronologically sucessive levels of interpretation are
characteristic of the Bab's treatment of other Qur'anic texts and relate to
the gradual evolution of the his claims as well as to the unfolding of a
realized and futurist Babi eschatology.
From mfoster@tyrell.netSat Sep 30 11:59:46 1995
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 06:29:09 -0500 (EDT)
From: "Mark A. Foster"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: An Open Judicial Process
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Rick Schaur wrote to the multiple recipients of talisman@indiana.edu:
R >How about a tradition of justice which follows the principles of
R >Baha'i Administration, the guidance of Shoghi Effendi and the
R >Covenant of Baha'u'llah?
Hi, Rick -
I agree with you. IMHO, Baha'i jurisprudence, like everything else
Baha'i (Baha'i sociology, Baha'i economics, Baha'i literarure, Baha'i
art, etc.) will gradually germinate over the course of this Dispensation
and reach its maturity in the appearance of Baha'i civilization.
While there may, ultimately, be certain parallels between Baha'i
jurisprudence and elements of some contemporary forms of that
discipline, we obviously have no way of knowing the precise technologies
of law-creating which will develop as we approach the Golden Age.
From my POV, the best course of action at this stage would be to
propose multiple models of jurisprudence, some combining Baha'i
principles with contemporary approaces, while not becoming attached to
any one of them.
Loving greetings,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Kansas Director, Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff on Three CompuServe Religion Forums) *
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
* UWMG94A (Prodigy) RealityDude (Microsoft) Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-)
From haukness@tenet.eduSat Sep 30 12:00:57 1995
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 09:02:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: John Haukness
To: dann.may@s-box.misc.uoknor.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Living BUDDHISM
Allah-u-abha Friends: As the originator of posting the quote from Abdul
Baha that Christiandom is dead and then correlating Abdul Baha's quote
to include the other major religions I will throw this in to Dan's
comments. One thing I want to say is that I have thought about never
using this quote, but have decided it has it's place and purpose, it goes
along with similar touchy quotes, Baha'is being more distinctive, and in
the compilation on education even Bahais being more intelligent.
A problem I see with what Dan is saying is we fall into that the Baha'i
Faith is too often represented as just another religion, when Bahaullah
as well as reason, say that the last thing the world needs now is just
another religion. Bahaullah states even, that He would not have consented
to add another religion, and conversely the "old" is rolled up. I know my
views here are agitating people, so be it, taking the other side I see is
offering a false message. I love Buddhism, I used to call myself
Buddhist, it is just that now when I call my self Baha'i, I feel more
Buddhist because what I used to be is confirmed. Anyway not to take up
anymore bandwidth my question here is the following.
Bahaullah spent his life in prison for His declaration and promise that
He was among other things the fullfillment of Buddha and being Bahaullah
was banished for making such a claim, are we Bahais saying that the world
is going to welcome us with open arms, nay impossible. When are we going
to get over this expecting to be understood supposition?And can't we be a
bit frank on an occasion, well I find it advantageous actually. I love
this fire, I love people telling me to get lost, and I really love people
telling me I am expousing exclusivity and one upsmanship, I love you all.
When Bahaullah went to prison this is what I understood following Him
would mean, that I would be rejected, and my repetition of this is the
day of the Glory of God would be countered by, you got a big head fellow.
So on the other hand while we go through the pluralism dialogue and
apology dialogue, we also have the other side, we have what is for me the
salient phenomana of the day, we have people reading "No man shall attain
the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from
all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of
the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined
for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the
dispensations of Provid3ence, hath been raised in the firmanent of the
Bayan.", and proclaiming eclectiscism, I'm leaving you behind as a
religion and with all my soul embrace the Bayan. What a day! Fire, I love it.
haukness@tenet.edu
2015 Bay St. N.
Texas City, TX 77590
voice/fax 409-948-6074
One planet one people please!
From pjohnson@leo.vsla.eduSat Sep 30 12:32:16 1995
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 95 14:27:37 EDT
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
To: Bruce Burrill
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Dead Buddhism
According to Bruce Burrill:
>
> At one time some twenty plus years ago, I seriously considered Baha'i, but
> opted for the richer and deeper traditions of Buddhism.
It is a matter of faith for Baha'is that fundamental change in a religious
tradition must be negative. That is, revelation starts out
perfect and any modification can but introduce imperfection.
The richness and depth of Buddhism is clearly a cumulative
quality that increased over time. The very fact of such
progressive development must be rejected to fit the Baha'i
paradigm.
>
SF-> > "As a professional scientist, I find it hard to regard such a belief
> as anything but superstition. If it had altogether good
> consequences, i.e., if it was fruitful, I might change my mind." <
>
> Well, certainly the idea of god has not had altogether good results, the caste
> system is a very nice example, so then are you going to change your mind
> about god?
To pursue a more direct parallel, belief in an afterlife with
no reincarnation has had awful consequences too. So has belief
in no afterlife at all. An argument that cuts this many ways
thus has no power to reject any particular view. BTW, as a
Theosophist I accepted Blavatsky's teaching that if people
believed in reincarnation they would behave more responsibly,
compassionately, etc.-- UNTIL I spent some time in India.
>
> > "Everywhere that Buddhism once shown brightly, and brightly indeed
> did it shine, it is dead, ignored by the populations it once educated,
> rejected.
Sri Lanka? Thailand? Mongolia? There are about 350 million
Buddhists in the world, so I suggest your report of its death
is greatly exaggerated.
Cheers
From jrcole@umich.eduSat Sep 30 13:14:11 1995
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 12:31:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Baha'i justice
I do not think the demand for a solely Baha'i set of judicial mechanisms
is warranted by Baha'i texts, nor is it realistic.
First of all, the Baha'i texts themselves recognize extra-scriptural
sources of values, judgments, and procedures.
In His Tablet to the Grand Vizier, Lawh-i Ra'is (A:li Pasha), Baha'u'llah
says that exiling him to Akka was a great wrong, and that if the Grand
Vizier could not act according to Islamic justice, he could at least have
acted according to natural justice (or words to that effect). That is,
Baha'u'llah saw Islamic law and justice as a more strict and more
specific subset of natural law and natural justice, not as a sui generis
or even antithetical principle.
Abdu'l-Baha begins Secret of Divine Civilization with an encomium to
human reason, which is aimed at refuting 19th century Shi`ite
fundamentalists who rejected all aspects of modernity on the grounds that
it is not rooted in Islamic law. `Abdu'l-Baha is saying that human
reason is an adjunct to, and can legitimately go beyond, as long as it
does not contradict, the basics of Islamic prescriptions.
Much of Secret of Divine Civilization is taken up with complaining about
19th-century Iran's arbitrary judicial system. On the one hand,
Islamic-law courts had no codified legal system to work out
of--individual jurists came to idiosyncratic conclusions (which they
could reverse!) that formed no general precedent. These decisions had
reference to the Qur'an and hadith, but they were what Weber calls "qadi
justice," ad hoc and arbitrary. Most legal judgments were not rendered
by these Islamic courts at all, but by civil officials. `Abdu'l-Baha
strongly condemns arbitrary judicial fiats by these officials.
`Abdu'l-Baha clearly wanted 1) codified and specific legal codes that
were 2) administered by panels of trained judges and 3) built toward a
consistent and integral legal system with no arbitrary loopholes.
Read Secret of Divine Civilization. See if I am not right.
Aside from that, Baha'i writings provide very little guidance as to the
construction of a Baha'i canon law, which has not been done. There is no
published codification either of statutes or of major judicial
decisions. As a result, each decision is sui generis and some have been,
quite frankly, arbitrary. I think we need a standardized Baha'i canon
law to prevent such miscarriages of justice. Psychobabble about the
Institutions being children and we the forebearing parents, or us as
rebellious children, is misleading. When human institutions, staffed by
humans, commit injustices, there needs to be redress and reform. Period.
With regard to the hypothetical case of a Navajo Baha'i with a
distinguished record of service to the Faith, who had fallen deathly ill,
and who participated in a healing ceremony that employed peyote for
medicinal purposes, I think some principles of Baha'i jurisprudence can
be brought to bear.
First of all, it is clear that physicians can prescribe for the treatment
of illness substances (including medicines with alcohol in them) that
would ordinarily be forbidden to Baha'is. Even the prohibition of
peyote by the Universal House of Justice makes an exemption for medicinal
use.
So the real question is, "was this a medical treatment by a skilled
physician" (as mandated in the Aqdas)?
The answer to this question hangs on the meaning of "skilled physician."
We have anecdotal evidence that the Master and Shoghi Effendi did not
exclude homeopathic physicians from this definition.
Here, I would suggest that for a Navajo, this healing ceremony would
certainly have been conducted by someone he considered a "skilled physician."
Given that the Faith is not wedded to an American Medical Association
definition of "skilled physician," this is not an unreasonable assumption.
I therefore see no grounds, in this hypothetical situation, for the
removal of this Navajo believer's administrative rights according to
Baha'i law. Of course, a real-world situation may involve further
considerations of which I am unaware. I am responding only to the
bare-bones hypothetical one. That is the individual opinion and Cole
Fatwa on this issue.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
From gpoirier@acca.nmsu.eduSat Sep 30 13:15:05 1995
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 10:44:28 -0600 (MDT)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Member1700@aol.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Kitab-i-Ahd
On Sun, 24 Sep 1995 Tony Lee Member1700@aol.com wrote:
> We might also remember--just by way of example--that according to the
> direct and explicit text of the Kitab-i 'Ahd, it was Mirza Muhammad-'Ali who
> was appointed as 'Abdu'l-Baha's successor as the head of the Cause. This was
> a provision made by Baha'u'llah in the most categorical way.
> Of course, we all know that 'Abdu'l-Baha set aside this provision in
> Baha'u'llah's Will and Testament--as he certainly should have, and which he
> had full authority to do. But, it seems to me silly to insist that this was
> not a change. And a most fundamental change. It was 'Abdu'l-Baha's
> interpretation that this provision of the Will no longer applied.
In His own Will, the Master refers to a Tablet by Baha'u'llah in which
Baha'u'llah placed a condition on Muhammad Ali's successorship after
'Abdu'l-Baha: That M.A. must not stray "the breadth of a hair" from under
the authority of 'Abdu'l-Baha. The Master refers to this Tablet in the
first part of His Will, and then goes on to elaborate the enormities of
M.A. Baha'u'llah's appointment of M.A. to succeed the Master was thus
conditional, and the Master elaborates that Muhammad-Ali didn't meet the
condition. Following this explanation, the Master appoints the twin
institutions to succeed Him. Whether this was interpretation, I'm not
sure; as I've said, the powers of the Master were not limited to
Interpretation of Holy Writ. I would personally place this more in the
area of the Master's infallible protection of the Cause.
My take on Baha'u'llah's appointment of Muhammad Ali is this: Baha'u'llah
knew that Muhammad Ali was unworthy. Even during the lifetime of
Baha'u'llah, M.A. had claimed Prophethood. Baha'u'llah was thus aware of
the propensity of M.A. for rebellion. By providing in His will for M.A.
to succeed 'Abdu'l-Baha, He offered a reward to M.A. to attempt to elicit
his obedience to 'Abdu'l-Baha during His ministry. He offered sovereignty
over the Cause of God. I do believe that Baha'u'llah was fully aware when
He wrote the Kitab-i-Ahd that M.A. would not meet the condition of loyalty
to the Master. But His justice offered this so that in the next world,
when Muhammad Ali faced his judgment, he would have no excuse for his
disobedience and his insurrection. I do not believe that Baha'u'llah was
taking a risk that such a man would actually lead His beloved Faith; that
He would entrust the reins of leadership to such an unworthy one. Ahang
and others may know more of the history of the Aghsan in the Holy Land,
and how unworthy this man's character was. Baha'u'llah knew that M.A.
would not fulfill the condition of obedience to the Master; but this
somewhat placed the cap on M.A.'s insurrection during the Master's
lifetime. It offered a reward to M.A. to which the Master could draw
M.A.'s attention.
In SAQ the Master interprets the provision in the 11th or 12th chapter of
the Revelation of John, that "The Ark of His Testament was seen in the
Temple of His Cause," refers to the reading of the Last Will and Testament
of Baha'u'llah at Bahji following His passing. The Apocalypse then goes
on to say that there were "lightnings and thunders and hail and an
earthquake," which the Master says was the insurrection of the Aghsan.
Muhammad Ali was at the center of the "thunder" of Covenant-breaking at
that time. It *was* foreseen from the beginning, two millenia beforehand.
I believe Baha'u'llah saw this clearly, and provided in a divinely
magnanimous and just way for the successorship.
From rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.comSun Oct 1 12:52:08 1995
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 95 14:14:01 -0400
From: Ahang Rabbani
To: tarjuman@umich.edu
Subject: RE: Date of death for Haj Muhammad Karim Khan-i Kirmani
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Nima jan:
Tarikh-i Zuhuru'l-Haqq, 3:401, gives it as 22 Sh`aban 1288.
(sorry my conversion software is busted; leave it for you to
convert.)
Incidentally, 1288 H is correct, since both his followers and the
Babis have converted it to phrases based on the abjad system --
which reckons back to 1288.
ahang.
From lua@sover.netSun Oct 1 12:54:22 1995
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 16:20:05 -0400
From: LuAnne Hightower
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Dead religions AND address for BSB?
Dear friends,
I believe a distinction is in order between the decline of a religion as an
institution and the implied loss of potency of a revelation. As far as I
can see, the revelation itself does not undergo some sort of decay. Its
social teachings may become outmoded with the passage of time - something
modern folks subscribing to any religious tradition prior to this
dispensation have had to struggle with. But the spiritual potency of the
essential truth contained in th