From CMathenge@aol.comFri Oct 27 10:49:16 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 01:00:03 -0400
From: CMathenge@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Rock Music, Fundamentalism, Absurdity

Dear Carl,

Well, I can't speak for the Faith, and in fact I was quite saddened to 
hear
of the self-righteous attitude of some communities towards teens who 
should
have been encouraged to develop their talents within the community 
rather
than outside it.

But I have a 25-year-old son (Baha'i) who is in a group called "Justice
Leeg," mostly Baha'i, and they have been performing in night spots 
around Los
Angeles for the last year or so.  They do a variety of current genres--
mostly
those identified with what I would call the black youth culture--
hiphop, rap,
etc., although the group of nine includes a mixture of ethnicities.  
They are
coming out with a tape momentarily--as we speak I am told it awaits 
only the
cover which is at the printer's.  As far as I am aware, they have not 
been in
any way discouraged by the Los Angeles LSA or the Baha'i communities in 
the
area.  I hope the Baha'i community is aware that they are making a lot 
of
friends for the Faith and getting exposure in groups who might not 
otherwise
notice its existence.  (BTW, although I didn't intend a sales pitch, 
Michael
has just now informed me the tape may be ordered by sending $10 plus $2 
s&h
to Justice Leeg, P.O. Box 1118, Lawndale, CA 90260.  Personally I like 
Bach
and Vivaldi [g].) 

Regards,
Carmen




From CMathenge@aol.comFri Oct 27 10:49:42 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 01:00:01 -0400
From: CMathenge@aol.com
To: belove@sover.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Power vs power-over

Dear Talismanians,

In a message dated 95-10-20 09:38:37 EDT, belove@sover.net writes:

>At times I speculate that the next Manifestation will not be a single 
>Man or Woman but will be a Couple. Then the rest of us can spend time 
>studying how they love and care for each other while at the same time 
>each being effective in the world. We would study their lives as we 
>now study the lives of the prophets. 

Well, actually we can do this with Baha'u'llah and Navvab, can we not?  
When
I went on pilgrimage, one of my most memorable moments was when I 
visited
Navvab's monument.  I remembered all of her trials, how she made visits 
to
the Siyyah Chal to take food to her Husband, even at great risk to 
herself
and her children, how she sold all of her wedding treasures, even the 
buttons
from her gown, to provide the bare essentials for that terrible journey 
over
the mountains to Baghdad in the dead of winter, the death of baby 
during the
period when Baha'u'llah was away in Sulamaniyyih, and how Mirza Yahya 
had the
infant spirited away and would not even allow a proper burial, how she
apparently suffered the actions of the covenant breakers over so many 
years
with all possible kindness and patience, and how she was inconsolable 
at the
death of the Purest Branch.  It makes me cry to this day whenever I 
think of
all the suffering she went through. . . I cried so much at her grave 
that my
mother kept reassuring me that it was all allright now.

Love,
Carmen
  

From CMathenge@aol.comFri Oct 27 10:49:58 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 01:00:00 -0400
From: CMathenge@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Power

Dear Talismanians,

In a message dated 95-10-19 11:01:56 EDT, lua@sover.net (LuAnne 
Hightower)
writes:

>Joan wrote:
>
>>Second, what is the transition experience for people from a Power
>>Over mentality, towards a Personal Power point of view?  Are there 
others
>>on this list who can help me understand what is necessary or what
>>facilitates that transition?
>
>The transition experience involves learning to distinguish between the
>Personal Power point of view and that of Power Over.  There is a 
definite
>felt sense of Power Over --- a sort of anxiety (adrenal rush, 
sympathetic
>nervous system on standby, crisis mentality, competitive jolt) which 
is
>always feared-based  --- that we can begin to identify whenever it 
kicks in.
>It is vastly distinct from the feeling we have when we are operating 
out of
>love and from our most authentic or innermost being. 

A very good description--the Power Over point of view comes from being
brainwashed with the belief that we are worthless and defective, which 
causes
us to feel fear--fear of abandonment, fear of losing something or 
someone,
fear of not being good enough--and so we unconsciously try to 
compensate for
this by finding someone to be better than.

Personal Power is more
>a sense of who God meant us to be - it is only achieved through 
submission
>to His Will. 

Yes, I think empowerment, on the other hand, comes from recognizing 
that one
is *created* noble--we don't have to be better than anyone to be 
valuable, we
are already born that way, and all we have to do is develop and 
maintain our
focus on God (through the Manifestation) as our primary relationship 
and then
follow whatever path reveals itself day by day--the "process" discussed 
in
other posts.

 We must reach a point of willingness to have the disparity
>between these states become painfully apparent to us.  Once we reach 
that
>willingness, there is no turning back.  Once we act to embody His 
principles
>- to change our waywardness, most of what we will see is exactly that 
- we
>will be shown our lowliness, our faults, our small mindedness, our
>judgements of others.  This is a necessary step. It is all hard work 
to undo
>the legacy of this popular American culture.

Whew!  Yes, indeed.  
>
>If one hasn't the skills or support to embark on this journey without 
close
>supervision, a skilled therapist is highly recommended.  Marion 
Woodman's
>works on "Conscious Feminity" are a great resource for building a 
dialogue
>with these aspects of ourselves, as well as with our dreams and the 
world of
>archetypes.  Prayer is mandatory - as much as you can, take your 
lowliness
>into the Presence of the All-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful and 
Compassionate.

Marion Woodman is an excellent writer.  I haven't read "Conscious 
Femininty,"
but I'll look for it.  I guess her husband is a Baha'i--I noticed he 
had an
article published in--what was it, Baha'i Studies Notebook or World 
Order?
 Anyway, I know she is an Anglican herself, but must be a friend of the
Faith.

With loving Baha'i greetings,

Carmen



From dpeden@imul.comFri Oct 27 10:50:15 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 08:04:54+030
From: Don Peden 
To: talisman@indiana.edu

I am enjoying with amusement the "debate" about copyright protocol on 
the
Email.  It must be born of a writers education and a scholars eye for 
detail.

For God's Sake, please, if I should ever utter something wise enough to
quote, or meaningful in any significant way, I'm sure that it must come 
from
some other place than myself anyway, and please feel free to use it in 
any
way positive that you can think of.  Mention of my name not required.

Does this fulfill a copyright protocol?

Laughing,

Bev.




From Alethinos@aol.comFri Oct 27 10:56:23 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 01:27:40 -0400
From: Alethinos@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: fundamentalism


Juan writes at the end in a message dated 95-10-26 02:14:39 EDT:

>Having critically examined the underpinnings of my philosophy of right 
on 
>a large number of occasions and over the course of 22 years, I have 
>concluded that many aspects of current Baha'i administrative practice 
and 
>belief are pernicious and desperately need to be reformed.  Now what?  
>Those who have had these experiences and yet still cling to a theory 
of 
>Baha'i institutional inerrancy seem to me to be closer to courting the 
>epithet "fundamentalist," though why don't we avoid labels altogether 
and 
>give this word a rest?

As much as I have remarked on this issue (with oddly enough no response 
from
my usual cohort of concerned brothers and sisters) and despite David 
House's
excellent reply I feel I should bring up a slightly different view 
here.

As a community of people, with a common goal and a series of problems 
which
seem at present nearly insurmountable (including this one) we need to 
ask
what is the best way to deal with it. This does not seem to be the best 
way.

We might wish to consider where such arguements/debates will take us. 
Our
community is stagnant. We have not had significant enrollment for 
decades. We
have no presence in the consciousness of America. We are a incestious
community _at present_:  

AMERICAN BAHA'IS STAND AT CROSSROADS
The American Baha'i Community, the leaven destined to leaven
the whole, cannot hope, at this critical juncture in the fortunes of a
struggling, perilously situated, spiritually moribund nation, to either
escape the trials with which this nation is confronted, nor claim to be
wholly immune from the evils that stain its character.
(Citadel of Faith, page 127)

It would seem that we are here constantly repeating in microcosom the 
same
mistakes we see constantly repeated each day in the news, at our 
nation's
capital and on tv talkshows. There is little doubt that this problem 
exists -
I too have been a *victim* if we feel such a need for overused phrases 
to
characterize our experiences. 

But here were are on Talisman, constantly bemoaning all the problems of 
our
community - but there is no driving motivation behind solving the 
problems
save for our own self-centered satisfaction. As if we are filled with 
some
strange version of the disease of revenge . . .

But it goes nowhere. We are not solving anything here folks. And we 
will
_not_ solve them so long as we continue to realize that the only 
problems
that immediately need to be solved are those that keep us from arising 
to
fulfill the vision of America's spiritual destiny.

In the movement to attain such an incredibly difficult goal we will be 
given
and will find the power and wisdom to effectively deal with these 
problems.
We will be guided by the Vision of the Guardian and the Master to see 
past
these stumbling blocks and not only sweep them away but build up, 
truly, a
beuatiful edifice in their place.

We need to lift up our eyes and see that the only way out is to move 
forward.
We cannot break from this prison by planning and bemoaning and 
conjecturing.
We need to dig. We need to risk our lives to jump the evil jailors who 
hold
us here. 

And I am not talking 'round-about for one more *glorious* teaching 
campaign.
Good Lord that is the _last_ thing we need to hear about again. We need 
to
offer up to America the opportunity to heal itself through the 
application of
the Medicine we hold in our hands. We don't need to put together some
pathetic imitation of an evangelical revival. Nor do we need to be a 
bunch of
pot-bellied scholastics arguing the merits of the Law or how many 
angels can
dance on the head of Burl if he holds real still . . .

It isn't that many of these question are not important, and indeed 
vital to
helping achieve this Vision of America - but the time is long past that 
we
can afford to simply sit and talk about such things. We need to move 
down the
road, and quickly and discuss it along the way. Decades have sped by 
and here
we are . . . while windows of opportunity to really reach deep into 
America's
psyche have opened and closed, opened again and slid shut. I can only 
hope it
will open again and soon . . . and I can only wonder where we will find
ourselves at the time.


jim harrison

Alethinos@aol.com

From rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.comFri Oct 27 10:58:04 1995
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 95 23:10:01 -0400
From: Ahang Rabbani 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Hidden Words and mysticism

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]



Dear Jonah:

You raised 3 insightful questions and while I think its best to allow 
those with proper learning and training to comment, in interest of 
keeping the conversation going, allow me a few words.


> My first question:  You write in your post that "He [Shoghi Effendi] 
> goes on to say, that he never translated any of the mystical 
> Writings of the Faith or commented on them."  I assume that you are 
> excepting the Hidden Words, or do you not consider them mystical?

On page 140 of God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi refers to the Hidden 
Words as having "unsurpassed pre-eminence among" the "ethical writings 
of the Author of Baha'i Dispensation".

It seems that while the Hidden Words certainly have mystical 
dimensions, the beloved Guardian considered them as foundation of 
Baha'u'llah's moral and ethical teachings.


> Two: You write that, regarding Baha'u'llah's mystical writings, "we 
> should have very limited expectation for our discoveries in them.  
> They are the sealed choice wine of our Dispensation." What do you 
> mean? That scholastic examination of these writings is nearly 
> fruitless? Or just that we can not "interpret" them?

I certainly did not mean to imply anything that would stifle study of 
these Writings, including academic research in them.  To a large 
degree my comment reflected my own frustration to discover new 
insights in these mystical Writings.  For example, while there are a 
few new things that I've "learned" from the Seven Valley (beyond 
what's available in Attar's Conference of Birds), the most important 
of which is Baha'u'llah's rejection of wahdat-i wujud (existential 
monism) school of discourse, but to be honest I haven't learned that 
many *new* things.  

Does that mean that Baha'u'llah had nothing new to say?  Most 
definitely not!

Then, why can't I discern new insights?  Well, I think mainly because 
I have no religious training whatsoever and its hard to take my Sunday 
school training and try to apply it to a work like the Seven Valley.  
But what of others?  Why some of the great minds of the Cause (e.g. 
Mirza Abu'l-Fadl, Fadil Mazandarani, Ishraq-Khavari, Azizu'llah 
Misbah, Fazil-i Shirazi, etc.) also failed to note new insights and 
discoveries?  In fact, there is almost nothing written on this subject 
in all these hundreds of volumes of Baha'i literature in Persian!  
There are not even a few mature essays on the subject.  So, perhaps 
I'm not the only one.

Hence, I'm becoming more and more convinced that Shoghi Effendi is 
right and perhaps such works are not really intended for this time.  
Maybe Baha'u'llah reveal them for another time and place, after proper 
interpretations were made available (by the future Manifestations of 
God?).

A very learned Baha'i here in Houston is writing a massive book on the 
Seven Valley and in short all he's done is to identify similar themes 
and concepts in earlier Persian and Islamic literature.  This seems 
too superficial.  There has to be much greater gems of understanding 
in these Works which I can't see, and hence think its sealed choice 
wine.  But as I said, this could be a reflection of my own ignorance 
than anything else.


> Three: Do you, or does anyone, know of any significant discussion of 
> the Hidden Words besides those of Taherzadeh in _The Revelation of 
> Baha'u'llah_ or Diana Malouf's dissertation? 

By far, the best discussion of the Hidden Words is a book by Dr. 
Daryuish Ma'ani (of Austria), titled "Kanz-i Asrar" (The Treasury of 
Mysteries), over 300 pages.  The first volume was published by German 
publishing trust in 1993 with subsequent volumes to come out soon (or 
perhaps the second one is already out).  In my view, its several 
orders of magnitude better than the two items you mentioned -- but its 
in Persian.  Perhaps someone in your community can assist in 
translating sections of it.  This book is a great contribution to 
Baha'i scholarship and deserves more attention.

Rumor has it that Fadil-i Tihrani (or was it Fadil-i Shirazi?) many 
years ago also wrote a massive commentary on the Hidden Words, but 
have never seen a copy nor any reference to it.  Doubt its extant.  
Does anyone know anything about it?


with best wishes, ahang.


From burlb@bmi.netFri Oct 27 11:01:54 1995
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 95 23:17 PDT
From: Burl Barer 
To: Ahang Rabbani 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Holy Mariner! (was Next Manifestation)

>OOOPS! Please forgive the false start on the previous message -- I hit 
a
wrong key (e-mail flat).

When I was a new Baha'i I went to Vancouver BC to see Shoghi Effendi's 
wife
-- Hand of the Cause -- and had no idea what she looked like or 
anything.
But I did have a question I wanted to ask her. Well, after her talk I 
was
standing in the hall smoking a Camel (cigarette) and all of a sudden, 
there
she was. So, not being too shy, I call out "Hey, lady!" I didn't know 
what
else to call her, as I didn't know how to pronounce her name and I was 
not
going to call her Mrs. Guardian. She came dashing right over all 
intensity
and focused.

 "What is it?"  

"I'm new at this Baha'i business but I've been reading a lot of stuff. 
Have
you ever read The Tablet of the Holy Mariner. You know the one I mean?"
She looks at me as if my head is transparent and she's checking for 
signs of
life in there. 

"Yes, go on.."

"Well," says I puffing away, "I can't make heads or tails out of the 
thing
and I was hoping maybe you could tell me what its about."

"I know exactly what you mean," she asserted. "When the Beloved 
Guardian,
Shoghi Effendi...you do know about Shoghi Effendi, don't you? (nodded
affirmation from me) Well, at night he used to read to me from the 
writings
of Baha'u'llah and talk about them and what they meant. But, to tell 
you the
truth, I always perferred the more `nuts and bolts' writings. The 
mystical
tablets and that sort of thing went right over my head, although the
Guardian used to talk about them quite a bit and read them to me, but I
didn't understand them all that well. So, I am not really the person to 
ask."

So, I shrug.

"But I'll tell you what," she says in that very solid way she has of 
saying
very solid things, "when you see Mr. Faizi, ask him about it and he 
will sit
you down and go through it with you line by line."

Swell.  Fat chance I'll see this Mr. Faizi guy.

1974: I find myself in an airport lobby with time to kill. Look! It is 
Hand
of the Cause Mr. Faizi! There is an empty seat next to him in the 
little row
of black plastic airport chairs. 

"Excuse me Mr. Faizi, but Rhuhiyah Khanum said that you would explain 
the
Tablet of the Holy Mariner to me if I asked you to. Is that true?"

"Why yes, of course," says Faizi in that sweet sweet voice, " sit down 
and I
will go through it with you line by line."

I sit down. He very casually reaches into his inside jacket pocket and 
pulls
out a copy of the Table of the Holy Mariner!  (don't you carry yours 
with
you at all times?) 

I didn't retain so much about the details of the prophetic nature of 
the
Tablet, which is what Mr. Faizi seemed to concentrate upon, as I was
enraptured by the prophetic truth of the assurance that when I saw Mr.
Faizi, he would go through it line by line.

There may be nothing mystical about the experience -- she probably knew 
that
he carried that Tablet around with him in his pocket just waiting for 
some
gangly, gawky, American Baha'i to accost him for an explanation. :-)

Burl 

*******************************************************
  Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
  


From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzFri Oct 27 11:03:06 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 19:26:58 +1000
From: Robert Johnston 
To: Bud Polk , straz@itsa.ucsf.EDU, 
talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Mental Illness and polarities: HA!

Dear Bud and Katherine,
                      I am delighted that you have both responded with
spirit to my provocative letter.  Here is my reply:

(1) Bud.

You wrote:

>Robert, I tried consulting a shaman about my 27 year history of
>bipolar disorder. He drummed, chanted and painted my body blue --
>then sent me on a vision quest.  But I have had a little more
>success with the "positivistic exaltation of the biologistic
>technician," im my case a psychopharmacologist.  I'll take lithium
>and wellbutrin over drumming and chanting any day.

Good for you Bud buddy!  I didn't say that one should consult a
shaman...but never mind.


>
>Perhaps a little closer reading of Seena's thoughts on genetic
>triggers, twins, and biochemistry?  The evidence is farily
>substantial.


Not substantial at all.  The scant information that Seena provided 
would
not even register as data in a respectable scientific study.   There is 
a
wide range of pretty interesting stuff that happens with twins.  That 
it is
all to do with biology is entirely speculative.  Actually, I think that 
we
will find that data provided by the study of monozygotic twins will be 
most
useful in furnishing us with metaphysical rather than physical proofs.


>I prefer a world with psychiatry to one without. Thirty or forty
>years ago, I would have spent my life in an institution.


Again my dear Bud, you seem to be content to infer far too much from 
too
little evidence.  Ever heard how much your nation spents of
anti-depressants?  I think it would blow your mind!

A Solomon Islander Baha'i friend said that in the West we have failed 
to
see [harmful] stress a disease. Now, this kind of stress leads to
situations where people go crazy, and are prescribed drugs.  God did 
not
make His creation weak, therefore these kinds of matters must 
necessarily
be dealt with primarily on [genuinely] psychological and cultural 
levels.

I am not saying that the way that you are dealing with your condition 
isn't
OK by the way.

>
>And a hearty ha! to you, my friend


Lovely to find you in good humour!

(11) Katherine:

Your wrote:

>
>My husband is a psychiatrist and to my knowledge we have neither a big
car (he drives an '83 dented Honda Accord, I get the '93 Accord because 
I
drive the baby around) nor a big house (we live in an extremely small 2
bedroom apartment) nor overseas holidays...not one.

>So.  I don't know to whom you refer, other than to an unfortunate 
stereotype.


It seems you have taken my metaphor rather too literally.   My main 
point
is to question the excessive use of drugs in the healing of mental
disorders.  I say that materialism is a root cause of of this 
situation,
and that psychiatry is generally materialistic.  Like Bud you appear to
infer rather too much from your particular experience.  Look at the
life-style of the average 40 year old psychiatrist, and I'll bet you'll
find that I am right, anyway!   Wealth isn't bad if it isn't acquired
unjustly.  There may be good psychiatrists.  I don't know.  I'll bet 
your
husband is.

I drive a 1974 Hillman Hunter station wagon.  Three of the valves are 
OK [just].


Robert.



From burlb@bmi.netFri Oct 27 11:03:58 1995
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 95 23:35 PDT
From: Burl Barer 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: fundamentalism

Jim Harrison, just to see if I read his posts, wrote:
" how many angels can dance on the head of Burl if he holds real still"

  Depends on their cultural traditions and the sexual implications of 
their
dance. Besides, I don't hold still for much. Even if the veiled 
implication
is that I am a pin-head, I am sharp enough to know that confirmations
increase with movement and activity. If the angels are not dancing, we 
got a
problem.
Divine confirmation and assistance surround those that deliver the 
message,
there are no assurances of confirmation for sitting still, remaining 
silent,
waiting to see what happens (nothing) -- I am of the current 
conviction, and
I believe it is becoming firm and unalterable, that we must be in 
process,
in action, undertaking projects and bringing them to fruition 
constantly! If
you want to get lit up, remember that there is no wick for the rested.
Constantly proclaim, consistently speak of Baha'u'lah and who he is, 
deepen
the newies and the oldies, praise effusively, encourage honestly, and 
*do
things* -- Mr. Deeds Goes to Town.  Bring it from the realm of thought 
to
the realm of manifest reality. Don't wait for it to happen, be the 
conduit
through which it does happen. And with that attitude, we can all sell a 
hell
of a lot of Rainbow vacume cleaners!

"The secret of success in teaching is no secret -- it is a victorious 
attitude"

Burl (yeah, I know I just posted) Barer 

*******************************************************
  Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
  


From cybrmage@niia.netFri Oct 27 11:05:10 1995
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 17:38:31 +0000
From: Bud Polk 
To: Robert Johnston 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Mental Illness and polarities: HA! redux

On 27 Oct 95 at 19:26, Robert Johnston wrote:

> Date:          Fri, 27 Oct 1995 19:26:58 +1000
> To:            cybrmage@niia.net (Bud Polk), straz@itsa.ucsf.EDU, 
talisman@indiana.edu
> From:          robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
> Subject:       Re: Mental Illness and polarities: HA!

> Dear Bud and [name removed, private post]
>                       I am delighted that you have both responded
>                       with
> spirit to my provocative letter.  Here is my reply:
> 
> (1) Bud.
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> >Robert, I tried consulting a shaman about my 27 year history of
> >bipolar disorder. He drummed, chanted and painted my body blue --
> >then sent me on a vision quest.  But I have had a little more
> >success with the "positivistic exaltation of the biologistic
> >technician," im my case a psychopharmacologist.  I'll take lithium
> >and wellbutrin over drumming and chanting any day.
> 
> Good for you Bud buddy!  I didn't say that one should consult a
> shaman...but never mind.
> 
Robert, you did say (I paraphrase) the rise in mental illness was the 
result of psychiatrists replacing shamans and priests.  By the way, 
that d**n blue paint didn't come off for months. 
> >
> >Perhaps a little closer reading of Seena's thoughts on genetic
> >triggers, twins, and biochemistry?  The evidence is farily
> >substantial.
> 
> Not substantial at all.  The scant information that Seena provided
> would not even register as data in a respectable scientific study.  
> There is a wide range of pretty interesting stuff that happens with
> twins.  That it is all to do with biology is entirely speculative. 
> Actually, I think that we will find that data provided by the study
> of monozygotic twins will be most useful in furnishing us with
> metaphysical rather than physical proofs.

Robert, I would say you infer far too little from far too much. The
data from studies of monozygotic twins reared separately are not
"metaphyscial," but compelling.  The data regarding first-degree
relatives of those with mood disorders are also powerful.  I would be
happy to forward a bibliography. 

> >I prefer a world with psychiatry to one without. Thirty or forty
> >years ago, I would have spent my life in an institution.
> 
> Again my dear Bud, you seem to be content to infer far too much from
> too little evidence.  Ever heard how much your nation spents of
> anti-depressants?  I think it would blow your mind!

Again my dear Robert, you seem to be content to say too much while
knowing too little.  My father is an M.D. and a retired, high-level
executive of a major U.S. pharmaceutical company.  I know the
industry and I am appalled, for example, that family doctors
prescribe prozac, the new "happy" pill, by the bucketsful.  That
type of medication should only be prescribed by those qualified to
diagnose and treat the serious mental illness for which it is
intended. At the same time, I am grateful for modern
pharmaceuticals, without which my life would be unending hell.

> A Solomon Islander Baha'i friend said that in the West we have
> failed to see [harmful] stress a disease. Now, this kind of stress
> leads to situations where people go crazy, and are prescribed
> drugs. God did not make His creation weak, therefore these kinds
> of matters must necessarily be dealt with primarily on
> [genuinely] psychological and cultural levels.

With all due respect, it doesn't take a Solomon Islander (or a 
Baha'i) to know that.  The holistic approach  to mental health 
incorporates stress-relieving techniques.  I practice exercises from 
yoga and tai chi.
 
> I am not saying that the way that you are dealing with your
> condition isn't OK by the way.

My dear Robert, don't EVEN try. I would have you for breakfast. (But
I am not Burl's "flesh-eating chairman.") 

And a double hearty ha! to you, my friend

Lovely to find you in good humour also!

Bud
 

From belove@sover.netFri Oct 27 11:05:37 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 08:06:06 PDT
From: belove@sover.net
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Mythopoeic (sic)

By the way, there are two different words.

One is mytho-poetic that has to do with something that is a mixture 
of myth and poetry. Mythopoetic is like mythopoesis and mythopoeic. I 
think it's pronounced mith-o-poi-yet'-tic.

Mythopoeia has to do with the creation of myths. The mythopoeic 
movement has to do with becoming aware of the myths which create us 
and by which we live.

The myths we readily identify as "myths" -- in quotes, meaning 
"somebody else's religion" -- are myths which have no mythic power. 
The one's which have nouminosity, spiritual power, are rarely 
identified as myth's per se. 

These are myths like, the Lone Cowboy, the story of Honest Abe rise 
to the presidency through hard work, for example. 

Mythopoeia is about the process by which such figures emerge. 

And, I think, the Men's mythopoetic movement, seeded by the work of 
Robert Bly, James Hillman, Michael Mead and many others, -- often 
lampooned and trivialized by references to drum beating -- had to do 
with the attempt by men to learn what myths shape us and then, to 
reshape or replace those myths with nobler ones.


-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 10/27/95
Time: 08:06:06

This message was sent by Chameleon 
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. 
Einstein




From Dave10018@aol.comFri Oct 27 12:04:43 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 11:46:06 -0400
From: Dave10018@aol.com
To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Mental Illness and polarities: HA!

Robert, I have no time at present but this is just a note to say that 
you do
not know what you are talking about.  Speaking of polarities, you seem 
to
accept an absolute distinction between physical and non-physical which
doesn't accord with common sense or experience. Why shouldn't physical
factors cause mental illness? LSD, Psylocibin, cocaine, heroin,  
alcohol all
can cause temporary symptoms of mental illness and even trigger more 
lasting
syndromes.  
            
*******************************************************
  Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
  
But mainly, I wonder, how many schizophrenics have you seen both with 
and
without their medications? I worked for a time in a community mental 
health
center and have known many.  How many manic -depressives?   I am a 
manic
depressive myself. My condition is relatively mild, which means my 
cycle is
slow and I respond well to  lithium. I do not consider myself a 
"victim" of
anything, but I know because I have tried that without lithium I 
experience
disabling delusional mania and then depression. If lithium had not 
beern made
available to me in 1978, or , if like Robert Lowell I preferred alcohol 
to
lithium, I would have spent much more time in mental hospitals than I 
have
and sustained much more damage from the progress of the disease than
medication(what did you say your name was?) has caused me. Yes the 
science is
imperfect.The etiology of psychosis is poorly understood, and diagnosis 
is
based entirely on history and observation and description of symptoms 
rather
than objective physical data like blood tests, although physical 
anomalys
have been detected. Worse, medication is less than ideal, especially 
for
schizophrenia. And yes, medication by itself is never adequate to help  
*******************************************************
  Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
  someone recover from an illness which impacts the sufferer's 
experience of
his or her own subjectivity and is thus a shattering experience. One of 
the
first goals of such help, whether therapy or the assistance of friends 
and
family, is always to help the person with mental illness to understand 
the
need to take medication regularly to prevent the recurrence of 
disabling
symptoms.  Most of us learn the hard way. Some people find that with 
enough
support they can continue to function although they hear voices et 
cetera. I
have known people who have sought out the anti-psychiatry movement for 
this
purpose. The medication for schizophrenia is, as I said, not 
satisfactory and
has some very unfortunate side-effects.  Some manic depressives feel 
they
need their mania to be creative.(like Robert Lowell, who went into a 
mental
hospital "for a rest" every spring for many years.) I think to learn 
how to
be drunk without alcohol, to "merit the madness of love" is the essence 
of
the work of poetry, the marriage of form and sense. But my practice 
involves
taking my lithium because without it I am sooner or later overwhelmed 
by
manic mental processes which interfere gravely with judgement in ways I 
can
describe at another time. By the way, I like art with obscurity and
complexity.  Also I like advertising. 

your friend who pops pills,

david taylor

From jrcole@umich.eduMon Oct 30 10:26:49 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 12:03:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Juan R Cole 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: reforms



The replies critiquing my post on fundamentalism continue to leave me 
with the question of "What then?"

The popular Baha'i model in which one defers to the Institution for the 
sake of unity is fine for local communities.  If a policy really is not 
working after a year or two it can be brought back up in Feast and 
reconsidered, and I think most LSA's are detached and mature enough to 
reconsider the policies they have set.  These are largely face-to-face 
communities, with an average size of 40 persons, after all.

But this model really does not work at the national or international 
level. There are several problems.  First, there is not much of a way 
to  have it borne in on an NSA or an international institution that a 
problem exists with current policy.  Individual feast suggestions 
or letters can be dismissed as just that, individual.  And who cares 
what one person thinks?  Second, in some instances policies are 
good for some sectors of the community but bad for others.  

There is no obvious way to weigh and balance these matters at 
the national or international levels.  In 
particular, there are some policies that are valued by some 
administrators (and in which they have a vested interest) but which are 
very bad for the rest of the community.  In the latter case, the 
interests of the administrators always win out.

Thus, it seems clear to virtually all Baha'i writers that Review would 
best be abolished immediately, and the Institutions should stop trying 
to 
interfere with what Baha'is write.  But the control that Review and 
similar mechanisms give to the Institutions is valued by some high 
administrators, who selfishly keep it in place, to the vast detriment 
of the community.  Another example of this phenomenon is the conscious 
decision the US NSA took in the '70s to close down the process of entry 
by troops in the Carolinas, simply because the Baha'i bureaucracy could 
not conveniently deal with it.  (I myself suspect also that there were 
fears that a vast change in the electorate might well produce a new 
NSA).

What is good for elected and appointed Baha'i officials is not always 
good for the community at large nor for specific sectors of it.  Yet in 
the US there is no way for either the community or its constituencies 
to be heard.  The NSA is guaranteed by the peculiarities of the electoral 
system virtual life incumbency; members' airfares are paid to attend 
conferences around the country so that they can be seen and stay in the 
public eye; salaries are paid to a varying number of NSA members, from 
three to five at any one time, and it is sometimes said that they will 
even be kept on retainer after retirement; and all this gives sitting 
members a set of material incentives to try to stay in power.  Any 
criticism of NSA policy has even been branded by some NSA members as 
"negative campaigning"!  No public accounting is given of NSA members' 
salaries and perquisites.  Meanwhile, the National Teaching Committee 
is perennially underfunded, and relatively few of the community's national 
resources are put into teaching the Faith.  The American Baha'i is run 
as a bland cheerleading organ for the NSA and its policies, despite the 
fact that the community at large pays for it with their contributions.  No 
real news is allowed to appear in it, or any true debate over policies 
and their consequences (with the sole recent exception of the printing 
of one critical letter and a put-down of it, which is hardly a debate).

Burl's call for constant teaching and activity is well-taken, but the 
current system stifles that activity among certain sectors of the 
community, most especially writers and social thinkers.

I really wonder whether we should not go to a system where NSA members 
are banned from receiving salaries and perquisites, but where the 
executive secretary and the secretary for external affairs, etc., who 
have essentially full-time jobs, are *appointed*, extra-NSA posts with 
appropriate salaries and budgets.  This would remove any material 
incentive for anyone to want to be an NSA member.  Given that we have 
no nominations or campaigning, and the mathematics of a convention turning 
out any substantial number of sitting members are almost impossible, it 
seems to me that the only fair that sitting on the NSA be an 
unrewarding experience that no one would actually want.

At the international level, I am worried that a convention is growing 
up that being brought as a Counsellor or in some other capacity to Haifa 
can be seen as a form of nomination for a seat on the Universal House of 
Justice, so that current House members may have undue influence on who 
is chosen.  This process can lead to a clique of essentially like-minded 
persons ending up on the House; there have been no liberals since Ruhe, 
and there are now no native-born Americans (and America and Americans 
and "liberals" have started to be excoriated regularly).

The system the Baha'is now have is not mysterious and it is not somehow 
perfect.  It has sociological dynamics and it clearly has many serious 
flaws.  We can, moreover, as a world community, change it if we desire.  
Or we could continue to stagnate intellectually and numerically in the 
US, content with overblown and exaggerated reports of conversions among 
peasants in the global South.

Sincerely,   Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan



From rstockman@usbnc.orgMon Oct 30 10:27:53 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 10:44:29 
From: "Stockman, Robert" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Scripture article


     My apologies to my frustrated fellow Talismanians that my article 
on 
     scripture came out as gibberish.  I thought I had convered it to 
     ASCII, but all I had done was strip out most of the Word Perfect 
     transliterations and fonts and saved the file as a Word Perfect 
file.  
     Thank you, Eric, for translating it into ASCII.
     
     Unfortunately I did not fix all the transliterations, so some 
words 
     came through garbled.  Here is a list of the ones I spotted:
     
     * ruti* should be *sruti.*  The s has an underdot.
     Bhagavad-Git should be Bhagavad-Gita.  The a has a macron.
     Therav da is Theravada; the missing a has a macron
     Mah a y na is Mahayana; the missing "a's" have macrons on top of 
them.
     s tras is sutras; the u has a macron
     * di Sahib* is *Adi Sahib*; the A has a macron
     
     All of these are in paragraphs 3 and 4.
     
     I appreciate Juan's positive comments about the article but would 
urge 
     everyone not to assume the encyclopedia won't be published.  We 
have 
     no idea what will happen.  The Editorial Board (of which I am not 
a 
     member) is still in communication with the House of Justice about 
the 
     encyclopedia.  They wisely are keeping the communications 
confidential 
     until the issues (whatever they are) are resolved.  If any drafts 
of 
     encyclopedia articles are posted on Talisman, let us enjoy them 
and 
     offer comments for their improvement, assuming that one way or 
another 
     the good research that has been done will ultimately be of use to 
the 
     Faith.
     
     As for the number of tablets, my recollection is that the 15,000 
     figure is now even higher, but I have not seen it in writing from 
the 
     World Centre.  I think the distinction to be made is between 
tablets 
     for which the World Centre has *originals* and those for which 
they 
     only have *copies.*  Many individuals have kept the originals in 
the 
     family and have sent in high-quality copies.  The U.S. Archives 
has a 
     few original tablets of Baha'u'llah as well--I think sent by Haifa 
     once--and thousands of original tablets by `Abdu'l-Baha, for which 
     Haifa only has high-quality copies.  My recollection is that about 
     half the tablets in Haifa are originals, and about half are 
copies.  
     Perhaps the good staff in Haifa could confirm this information (if 
     they dare even post that).
     
                -- Rob

From jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.eduMon Oct 30 10:31:51 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 14:05:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joan L. Jensen" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: reforms

Dear Juan,

Your posting was very valuable and provocative, and for me it 
foreshadows 
the types of criticisms that we are *all* going to get as the Faith 
continues to move out of obscurity and is more closely scrutinized 
by those who would be friends of the Faith as well as those who would 
be detractors.  Talisman is a valuable forum for us to be able to 
think through answers to the issues you posted.

>  
> I really wonder whether we should not go to a system where NSA 
members 
> are banned from receiving salaries and perquisites, but where the 
> executive secretary and the secretary for external affairs, etc., who 
> have essentially full-time jobs, are *appointed*, extra-NSA posts 
with 
> appropriate salaries and budgets.  This would remove any material 
> incentive for anyone to want to be an NSA member.
> 

It would also remove the ability of anyone who was not independently 
wealthy and who had a family to support, from being able to serve or to 
serve as fully.  My guess is that the 'material rewards' for serving on 
the NSA are modest, and especially compared to the spiritual rewards of 
meeting with the friends, having time and resources to think about and 
explore spiritual solutions to problems, even [God forbid!] the thought 
that some members in some countries might like the appearance of power 
or 
authority that such a position confers.

The issues are complex, and deserve frank and respectful discussion.
I wonder what would be the best way to discuss the issues and find the 
balance between blunt honesty and preservation of unity.  My guess is 
that we need to proceed slowly, building the trust between us that 
we will be able to handle these issues without crossing into any 
concerns of 'brinkmanship', and that as the easier concerns are 
addressed successfully, the more difficult ones will either solve 
themselves, the answers will become more evident, or we will have 
the courage and strength we need to address them in turn.

Joan
------------------------------------------------------
	Joan Jensen
	Baltimore, Maryland USA
	

From rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.comMon Oct 30 10:32:21 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 12:28:01 -0400
From: Ahang Rabbani 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: reforms

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]


I appreciate Juan Cole's posting on this subject.

A question: 

> ... the mathematics of a convention turning out any substantial 
> number of sitting members are almost impossible ...

Many times I've noted folks state that mathematically (or really 
statistically!) incumbency is guaranteed in Baha'i electoral 
system.  But, you know, I have never seen anyone offering some 
statistical data to back it up.  I'm not saying that it's not so, 
(the very fact that we have folks on US NSA since the time of 
Shaykh Ahmad is perhaps evidence enough!), I'm just asking for 
some hard statistical data. 

If anyone has collected some data, please share.  As a 
professional statistician, I like to go over them and perhaps we 
can establish once and for all that in fact incumbency is built 
into the Baha'i system.

Incidentally, if this data was previously posted and I missed it, 
my apologies.  


By the way, David and Terry, I'll try to write about Houston's 
disastrous experience with entry by troops little bit later.  The 
bottom line is:  teaching project is dead as a door nail and NSA 
members came down a couple of weeks ago to perform the burial 
service.  More later.

regards, ahang.

From 72110.2126@compuserve.comMon Oct 30 10:33:55 1995
Date: 27 Oct 95 14:17:53 EDT
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Justice Belongs to Us

Dear Talismanians,

David House's interesting post this morning led me down some strange 
and
yet familiar corridors:

	"Like a child-King, these institutions are our rulers..."
	"Establishing justice is the exclusive purview of the
	institutions..."

Can't really agree with either statement, but let's use them as a 
premise to begin the consultation, anyway.

If the institutions are nascent, embryonic, child-like, whose job is it 
to
help them grow?  My own service on institutions indicates that the 
believers
have that unenviable and signal task.  It is the believers who are 
asked,
time and again in the writings, to take their affairs, their cares and
their concerns to the institutions, thus affording them the opportunity 
to
flex their muscles and grow.   If we have a child-King, it is our job 
to
help that child mature.  The Faith has long had a deep tradition of
interaction and even substantial influence that passes between ruler 
and
subject, from Manifestation to believer, and vice versa.  I think we 
miss
the point when we construct a dichotomy between the administration and
ourselves.

As such, the task of establishing justice falls to all of us, not just 
the
institutions.  If justice is to prevail in the world, we must first 
create
it at the grass-roots level, in our service to humanity, in our 
stewardship
of the poor, in our kindness and love for those who 'Abdu'l-Baha would 
have
ministered to.  As our vision of justice expands, then the 
institutions'
vision can grow wider, too.  So for me, establishing justice is not the
exclusive purview of the institutions, but comes directly from the 
justly-
lived lives of each and every individual Baha'i.  In fact, to leave the
establishment of justice to institutions guarantees its failure.  
Leaders
can only mirror the moral and spiritual maturity of the population they
are chosen from, after all.

Which is why I'll also take issue with David Taylor's most recent post.
While scholars and others here on Talisman certainly do bemoan the
condition of our community, that ain't all they do.  I personally know
many Baha'is on this list who spend a lot more time in administrative 
work
or community service or teaching than they do on Talisman.  The two, 
I'd
caution, are not exclusive.  The most active and committed Baha'is I 
know
are often the most vocal critics and reformers, too -- because they see
and experience firsthand the child-like nature of our institutions and
try to help in the maturation process.

Love,

David (unity in Daversity) Langness



From rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.comMon Oct 30 10:34:18 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 13:03:01 -0400
From: Ahang Rabbani 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Mental Illness

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]


My apologies to all for posting so much during the past two days.

I have nothing useful to say on subject of mental health, just 
wanted to comment that we probably want to be a bit more careful 
with the tone of our discourse.  Telling each other "You don't 
know what you're talking about!", even though we firmly believe 
it, is perhaps not the best comment on a semi-public forum.  
Also, I for one would take anything that a well-trained 
professional like Dr. Seena Fazel says on this subject very 
seriously and wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

So, everyone, (myself included), let's try to practice Baha'i 
consultation.

best wishes, ahang.

From Member1700@aol.comMon Oct 30 10:34:34 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 14:27:13 -0400
From: Member1700@aol.com
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Deep in the woods

Warmest welcome to the many new Talismaniacs, and to returning prodigal
children (Sheila?).   The discussion does indeed have the potential to 
become
richer.  
    Some will be delighted to learn that Jackson Armstrong-Ingram is 
lurking
somewhere abouts here.  I was.  Welcome to him, too.  
     I was really touched and amazed that Cary felt safe enough here to 
share
his pain and his dilemma with us.  I sure don't feel that safe.  But 
then,
maybe I have very thin skin--and a lot more problems than he does.  

Warmest, 
Tony

From Member1700@aol.comMon Oct 30 10:35:29 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 15:13:11 -0400
From: Member1700@aol.com
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Encyclopedia articles

I would second Payam's request to know what has happened to the Baha'i
encyclopedia.  I had heard a rumor of a reply from the House of Justice 
at
the ABS conference.  While I can't imagine them reversing themselves at 
this
point, I wonder if their reply leaves any room for academic scholarship 
on
the Faith within the Baha'i community.  
   It does seem to me that the consequences of suppressing the 
encyclopedia
are catastrophic.  Virtually, every Baha'i scholar in the world has
contributed to it, and they are all being told (in effect) that their 
work is
unacceptable.  Or at least, so it seems.  
    It appears that there are contradictory forces at work in the 
community,
and in Haifa.  On one hand, we hear that scholarship is to be 
encouraged, and
we are spending millions and millions of dollars to build a Center for 
the
Study of the Text.  We get signals that this center will network with
scholars around the world, etc.  Then on the other hand, the 
encyclopedia is
censored on the silliest grounds of language and tone, and it appears 
that
academic discourse is simply not going to be tolerated in relations to 
the
Faith within the Baha'i community.  Which is it?   
    Anyway, I would like to know the encyclopedia outcome.  The final
suppression of this work will certainly mean that the academic study of 
the
Faith will take place without the support and outside of the perview of 
the
institutions of the Faith.  What a pity!   But, perhaps it is for the 
best.  

Tony

From sdphelps@phoenix.Princeton.EDUMon Oct 30 10:36:09 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 15:15:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Steven D. Phelps" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: criticism


Dear friends,

Last week, I received an email from a friend saying that he had
unsubscribed from Talisman because the postings were like "continual
daggers in my soul".  Having been a (silent) member of Talisman for 
some
time, I can understand why he would say this.  I realize that the 
critical
nature of the discourse on Talisman has already been discussed a number 
of
times, but his reaction moved me to offer you what is in my heart, at 
the
risk of repeating what might have already been better expressed by 
others. 

I am sure that the criticism of the institutions has arisen from a deep
love for the Faith and from a desire to see the transmuting influence 
of
Baha'u'llah's Revelation take effect in the world.  Some criticism is
indeed essential, if our community is to surmount the obstacles that 
lie
before it.  May I submit, however, that the way in which it is 
expressed
has a profound effect both on ourselves and on others.  Negative 
criticism
withers the life of the spirit and will ultimately bring our efforts to
ruin. 

If we have a criticism of our community, or of the policies of our 
Local
and National Assemblies, let us offer it in a positive manner, with a
spirit of profound love and respect, and not in a way that undermines 
the
confidence and enthusiasm of the friends. 

Yes, there are imperfections, because the Baha'is themselves are
imperfect.  However, let us not lose sight of the vision given to us by
the Guardian, that the Administrative Order we are struggling to 
establish
is the very nucleus and pattern of the future World Order of 
Baha'u'llah,
and that it is the divinely ordained channel through which the spirit 
of
the Cause flows to mankind. 

Talisman has a fantastic potential to advance the cause of Baha'i
scholarship, to enrich the spiritual life of its participants, and thus 
to
help us all "scatter the divine verses" to every continent.  I hope 
that
it will one day fully live up to this potential. 

Steven Phelps
Graduate Student,
Department of Physics
Princeton University

From rstockman@usbnc.orgMon Oct 30 10:39:54 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 13:48:55 
From: "Stockman, Robert" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Juan R Cole 
Subject: Re: reforms


     I am afraid I disagree with Juan on several of the points he has 
made.
     
        <Subj:	Justice Belongs to Us
>Date:	95-10-27 14:24:54 EDT
>From:	72110.2126@compuserve.com (David Langness)
>Sender:	owner-talisman@indiana.edu
>To:	Talisman@indiana.edu
>
>Dear Talismanians,
>
>David House's interesting post this morning led me down some strange 
and
>yet familiar corridors:
>
>	"Like a child-King, these institutions are our rulers..."
>	"Establishing justice is the exclusive purview of the
>	institutions..."
>(snip,snip,snip!)

>Which is why I'll also take issue with David Taylor's most recent 
post.
>While scholars and others here on Talisman certainly do bemoan the
>condition of our community, that ain't all they do.  I personally know
>many Baha'is on this list who spend a lot more time in administrative 
work
>or community service or teaching than they do on Talisman.  The two, 
I'd
>caution, are not exclusive.  The most active and committed Baha'is I 
know
>are often the most vocal critics and reformers, too -- because they 
see
>and experience firsthand the child-like nature of our institutions and
>try to help in the maturation process.
>
>Love,
>
>David (unity in Daversity) Langness
>
>
I am a bit confused!! I never said any such thing about scholars, 
critics or
reformers. I wrote an overly long post to suggest the rule restricting
membership on the House of Justice, whether changeable or not, might 
indeed
be best understood as an arbitrary rule, an instance of patriarchal 
speech,
and why such a way of looking at it might be a sensible way of looking 
at it(
a  way of thinking which leaves open some real problems which would be 
good
to consider if anyone would touch on them) but this does not mean I am
opposed to considering innovations. My point in part was that the whole 
tenor
of the use of patriarchal symbolism in the Faith is that we see it as
symbolic of the Divine but move away from letting men confuse 
themselves with
the Divine!  This goes for NSA's too.  I  do a lot of bemoaning myself 
and
agree with much of the bemoaning that goes on here, including scholarly
bemoaning. Also, I do not use pseudonyms and have no reason to doubt 
that
David House is a real person, and believe me, he is not me!  

love,

David Taylor 

ps: Aside from the strange cropping up in it of my name in connection 
with
things I never said, I can find nothing in your post with which I do 
not
strongly agree!   




From cbuck@ccs.carleton.caMon Oct 30 10:44:38 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 17:10:37 EDT
From: Christopher Buck 
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Christopher Buck 
Subject: Journals & Dictionary Spellings

	In preparing a submission for an academic journal, I've had to
contend with acceptable spellings of Baha'u'llah, Baha'i, and
`Abdu'l-Baha, while getting away with the spelling of *Shoghi* which
is problematic from the standpoint of transliteration.

	There are two choices facing the academic: (1) adopt spellings
in accordance with the journal's transliteration conventions; or (2)
adopt the spellings as lexicalized or otherwise attested in unabridged
dictionaries. Current usage among Baha'is is not, ironically,
considered authoritative for spelling purposes scholarly journals.

	Juan Cole used the spellings *Bahaullah* and *Bahai* for his
important article, *Iranian Millenarianism and Democratic Thought in
the 19th Century,* _International Journal of Middle East Studies_ 24.1
(Feb. 1992): 1-26. Due presumably to the lack of a dictionary
alternative, `Abdu'l-Baha' had to be spelled *`Abd al-Baha'*.

	I faced the same dilemma. The best I could come up with is the
spelling *Baha-ullah* under the lexical entry, *Baha'i* (Oxford English
Dictionary [2nd edition] 1:885). I think these spellings are a little
closer than Juan's, which were based on Webster, but, like Juan, I'm
still stuck with *`Abd al-Baha'* (and I fudge on *Shoghi*--but that,
after all, was how he spelled his name in English--even as far back as
Oxford?) The spelling *Baha'u'llah* is really impossible to defend
among today's academics. The best that could be hoped for is 
*Baha'ullah*.

	Which is why I endorse Robert Stockman's efforts to bring the
standardized Baha'i spellings to the attention of lexicographers who
work for the various dictionary projects. If anyone has found better
spellings (with acutes or macrons or apostrophes in the right places),
please post (with references).

	Christopher Buck


**********************************************************************
* * *								 * * *
* * *	Christopher Buck	                   * * *
**********************************************************************       



From jmenon@bcon.comMon Oct 30 10:45:35 1995
Date: 27 Oct 1995 22:37:46 GMT
From: Jonathan Menon 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Ruhiyyih Khanum


Hi everyone!

I hope you all had a wonderful time in San Francisco.

I just read Burl's exquisite message about his discussion with Ruhiyyih
Khanum, and I just wanted to mention to everyone that she will be 
speaking in
Toronto this coming Sunday. She is speaking at Convocation Hall, 
University
of Toronto to about 2000 Baha'is from all over. If any of you happen to 
be in
the area, come along. Doors open at 6:30 p.m., and the talk is supposed 
to
start at 7:30.  Given experience with the last time Khanum was in 
Toronto, I
am going to start lining up at 4:00.

Baha'is only. Baha'i ID required, or so I'm told.

Best wishes,

Jonathan






From jmenon@bcon.comMon Oct 30 10:47:16 1995
Date: 27 Oct 1995 23:03:12 GMT
From: Jonathan Menon 
To: rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Houston


Hi Ahang,

Please send me the details of Houston as well. I am extremely 
interested in
all attempts at entry by troops--even if they fail. Of course, 
everything
contributes to success in the long run. One point which I think 
reflects our
misunderstanding of entry by troops is that as soon as a project starts 
to
bring in significant numbers of new enrollments, everyone starts saying 
"They
are having entry by troops." Most times this is not what is really 
happening,
since entry by troops is not just about a whole bunch of people 
declaring in
one project, but is a measure, I feel, of our ability to sustain those
declarations, and maintain successful processes of consolidation which 
cause
the growth to continue and get bigger. Entry by troops is a process 
which
requires certain factors to be in place for it to be sustained. If it 
isn't
sustained, then it's not entry by troops. My own understanding of what 
we are
trying to do in Ontario (a province in Canada) is to try to understand 
what
the different elements are, and then to put in place everything which 
is
required, so that when a spark of new declarations takes place, the 
Ontario
region will be equipped to fan the flames into a forest fire which will 
only
grow, and never stop. The entry by troops compilation is, of course, 
our main
reference.

I am interested in finding out as much as I can about the plans and
structures which achieved a certain amount of success in Houston, and 
what
was missing, so we can learn from the experience.

Take care,

Jonathan



From dhouse@cinsight.comMon Oct 30 10:47:40 1995
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 11:03:34 -0700
From: "David W. House" 
To: Baha'i Announce 
Subject: Baha'is of Oregon

Dear friends,

The Baha'is of Oregon are in the midst of gathering e-mail addresses 
for the
friends specifically in Oregon, and more generally for Baha'is in the
NorthWest. If you live in these areas, we would appreciate it if you 
would
send your name, real and e-mail address, the name of your local 
community,
whether you are a member of an institution or committee (LSA, Aux Bd, 
STC,
etc.) and whether you would be willing to pass information on to your
community, insitution and/or committee. Please be fairly explicit about 
this. 

Our office keeps Baha'i membership and records information for the 
state of
Oregon, and as a part of that service, we will be assisting in 
gathering and
properly distributing these addresses. If you have some special wish 
for
anonymity, please inform us when you send your e-mail address; all such
restrictions will be scrupulously adhered to. Otherwise, we will assume 
that
your address can be shared with Baha'i Institutions according to the
guidance and instructions of the Oregon State Teaching Committee, as 
has
been the case for physical addresses for the last decade.

Please send the information to dhouse@cinsight.com

=====================================================

Name:

Physical address (including city, state, zip: phone # optional):

e-mail address:

Baha'i community of residence:

Membership in committees, Institutions, et al:

I am (able / not able) to share information with my (community / 
committee /
Institution)

(Please keep my address confidential. / My address can distributed by 
the OSTC)

=====================================================

Thanks! God willing, we can use this information to assist in building 
a
system of rapid information distribution and response.

d.

From forumbahai@es.co.nzMon Oct 30 10:48:57 1995
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 95 13:05 GMT+1300
From: Alison & Steve Marshall 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Baha'i culture: two dreams

In the last month or so, I have had two dreams that I think bear on the
issue of Baha'i culture.


First dream: I am in a lounge, attending an event akin to dawn prayers.
Present are myself, and the family who occupy the house: mother, 
father, and
their daughter and her fiancee. They are very unhappy because the 
daughter
and fiancee turned up at the registry office the day before to marry, 
and,
half way through the ceremony, the registrar suddenly arbitrarily 
decided he
would not marry the couple. The family was distraught. 

I suggested that the registrar could not do that. He had acted outside 
his
statutory powers and they should get his decision judicially reviewed. 

At that, they gave me a look as if to say that I had broken the 
covenant.
The atmosphere in the room thickened and I cracked a joke to lift it: 
Just a
bit of free legal advice!

And so we got onto praying. The mother stood and, wailing, begged God 
to
lift this terrible injustice. The prayer she had chosen reminded me of 
the
intense prayers that were revealed for the martyrs. 


Second dream: I was in a bus. I travel in buses a lot, they are places 
where
people obey strong conventions, especially those relating to personal 
space.
Everybody in the bus was shoving horse manure in their mouths! Someone
commented that it was real-rotted. I was thinking: this isn't human 
food,
I'm not going to do this, this makes me sick. I imagined a beautiful, 
almost
luminous carrot and remembered what human food was, and what the horse
manure was really for! 


Love Alison
--------------------------------------------------------------
                  Alison and Steve Marshall
                 Email:  forumbahai@es.co.nz
--------------------------------------------------------------


From richs@microsoft.comMon Oct 30 10:51:55 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 17:16:05 -0700
From: Rick Schaut 
To: "'Eric D. Pierce'" ,
    "talisman@INDIANA.EDU" 
Subject: RE: fundamentalism (coolness/alienation/Evil One) repost

Dear Eric and Friends,

From: 	Eric D. Pierce[SMTP:PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.edu]
>My interpretation of the following quotation is that Baha'i 
>Administration ~done wrong~ results in:

>   "coolness and alienation that proceed from the Evil One".

A rather astute interpretation.  Were I sitting in a counsel chamber,
I would have these quotes in mind.

>If find that rather sobering considering the cavalier attitude we
>seem to have about dysfunctional consultation.

Has my attitude been cavalier?  If I stand outside the counsel chamber,
how am I to know whether or not a particular instance of consultation
is dysfunctional?


I understand the desire to come up with some structural way to
improve the quality of consultation (or reduce the dysfunctionality).
Yet, whenever I see such efforts, I cannot help but think of things
like the following letter from Shoghi Effendi:

          It is very unfortunate that some of the believers do not seem
    to grasp the fact that the administrative order, the Local and
    National Assemblies, are the pattern for the future, however
    inadequate they may sometimes seem.  We must obey and support these
    bodies, for this is the Baha'i law.  Until we learn to do this we
    cannot make real progress....

          The Baha'is are far from perfect, as individuals or when they
    serve on elected bodies, but the system of Baha'u'llah is perfect 
and
    gradually the believers mature and the system will work 
better.......
                    (1 November 1950 to an individual believer)

This item is quoted in "ISSUES CONCERNING COMMUNITY FUNCTIONING,
A memorandum prepared by the Research Department of the Universal
House of Justice," the complete text of which has been posted to 
Talisman
already.


We are faced, then, with this juxtaposition between the voluminous
quotes about the proper functioning of assemblies, the equally
voluminous quotes about the duties of individuals in their 
relationships
with these assemblies and Shoghi Effendi's assertion that the
system is perfect (having been Divinely ordained).  Are we to accept
our own ideas and notions about governance, or are we to try to seek
a deeper understanding and appreciation of the essential differences
between this system and all of those which have failed in the past, or
are failing now?

If we are to understand this, we have to turn to the biological model
advanced by the Universal House of Justice in _The Prosperity of
Humankind_.  The cells of the heart might begin to wonder if the
brain stops functioning correctly, but they do keep living up to their
own duties.  Does the heart tell the brain to get its act together?
The heart might tell the brain that it, the heart, is in distress.  The
heart doesn't tell the brain what to do or how to behave.

As individuals, then, ours is not the task to keep pressing the
institutions to behave as we would like them to behave.  Ours is
the task to support these institutions, to be thankful in adversity
and generous in prosperity, to be long-suffering and to selflessly
pursue our utmost and primary duty: to teach.  Isn't this what
`Abdu'l-Baha did; what `Abdu'l-Baha exhorted us to do?


'Course, if we want to, we can always stand on the corner
and wail.  I've never been very fond of my own wailing, so I
don't think I'd want to put anyone else through it.  Besides,
I'd rather hear Hendrix wail.


Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut


From Member1700@aol.comMon Oct 30 10:52:27 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 20:27:13 -0400
From: Member1700@aol.com
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Albania and former Soviet Territories

Since my wife was recently in Albania, I can say that the progress of 
the
Faith there has been truly extraordinary.  There are about 13,000 
Baha'is
there now, since the country was opened three years ago.  Many of them 
are
doctors and other professionals.  In one town, 23 out of the 24 doctors 
of
the city became Baha'is!  (Of course, this is a nominally Muslim 
country,
with 70% of the population from Muslim background.)  
   In former Soviet Territories, however, the Faith's performance has 
been
dismal.  There are less than three thousand Baha'is now in all such
territories, and there are no large-scale conversions.  

Tony

P.S.  My Assembly is organizing a book drive to send (English) books 
and
other materials to Albania on an emergency basis.  Your contributions 
of
books and money are welcome.  



From LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.eduMon Oct 30 10:54:02 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 19:30:45 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Miss Manners speaks

I hope that everyone noticed that my comments regarding Burl's table 
manners
can be applied generally to his overall behavior.  "Hey, lady!" indeed!  
Back
to Miss Mildred's Finishing School, Burl.

While I tend to lean towards Seena's and others' comments about the 
biological
basis of severe mental illness, I don't think other factors can be 
discounted. 
When suicide rates increase in adolescence, can we give this a 
biochemical
explanation.  When alcoholism is higher in one country or area of a 
country
 than in others, can we simply talk biology?  While I always felt 
uncomfortable
with psychodynamic explanations for severe mental disorders, I also 
can't
accept the fact that societal pressures and cultural patters (or
disintegration) don't also play a role in mental disorders.  However, 
having
worked with patiets in mental hospitals, I am quite the proponent of
medication.  Behavior modification techniques might be helpful once a 
person is
stabilized, but conventional psychotherapy just doesn't work in these 
cases.

I am trying to decide at this moment whether to throw myself into the 
ring with
Juan and Rob.  Maybe I'll just put my big toe in a little way.  Rob, 
while I
might agree with you wholeheartedly on approaches to teaching, I 
suppose I
disagree with you on just about every other issue.  You keep chanting 
the
refrain, "write to the House."  You say that there are plenty of ways 
for
individuals to be heard.  Rob, those that are heard are those who are 
singing
in harmony with the choir in Wilmette and Haifa.  You make Juan seem 
like the
Lone Ranger fighting against some fantacized evils.  My perspective is 
so very
different.  I keep seeing good people drifting away because their 
voices are
not in tune with Wilmette and Haifa.  These are not evil, self-
centered,
radical people, Rob.  They are normal human beings who see that things 
are
terribly amiss.  But they are labeled as "bad" because they disagree or 
dare to
criticize.  Rob, there is something terribly wrong with a system that 
makes
people feel bad because they disagree and dare to speak of their 
disagreement.

I don't know how you can possibly defend American Baha'i.  Even as a 
new,
terribly naive Baha'i I saw it as nothing more than a propoganda tool.  
The
fact that we can't voice our complaints and concerns in that paper is
disgraceful.

One other comment.  David House used the term "marji" when referring to 
the
UHJ.  (I hope I have this correct).  John defined the term marji' in 
another
posting.  I would just like to add a couple of other points.  Shi'a 
choose
their marji'.  Not all Shi'a follow the same one.  Also, most will tell 
you
that it is ridiculous to think that the marji' is infallible.  The ones 
who are
most adamant about the infallibility of the marji' are probably the 
ones that
most Baha'is would care to avoid.  They would be considered fanatics.  
It is
those who try to follow their marji's teachings as closely as possible 
while
recognizing that they must also use their own judgement in determining 
their
behavior who strike me as the most balanced human beings.  Certainly 
they are
the ones that I most enjoy being around.  Linda



------------ begin attachment #1 of 3 -------------

From: "Eric D. Pierce" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date:          Wed, 25 Oct 1995 10:25:49 PST8PDT
Subject:       Re: (fwd) Regarding the implication of the term "rijal" 
& r


Hi,

: Please feel free to share my concern about "spill overs" from 
talisman
: getting into srb [*] and their potential effect on its readership.

*Usenet "soc.religion.bahai" newsgroup

FYI (2 of 2). EP (PierceED@csus.edu)

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

From:           khakim@asdg.enet.dec.com
Date sent:      Mon, 23 Oct 95 11:23:50 EDT
To:             pierceed@sswdserver.sswd.csus.edu
Copies to:      khakim@asdg.enet.dec.com
Subject:        Re: (fwd) Regarding the implication of the term "rijal" 
& r


Dear Eric Allah-u-Abha,

>Very interesting analysis, thanks!

Thank you.

>There has been extensive discussion on the "talisman" email
>list for a number of months, are you interested in getting 
>feedback from the authors of the banned "Service of Women" 
>paper that Alma was referring to? If so, I'll post your 
>message on talisman.

Alma is going to send me a paper to read. Regretably, my participation 
in
srb and other newsgroups does not leave any time for me to participate 
in 
the discussions of "talisman" group.

>ps, I think that you may have misunderstood part of the 
>argument about the murky chronology of Abdu'l-Baha's 
>statements to Corrine True

This is fine and I admit that might have misunderstood a part of the 
argument.

>I have no opinion about that 
>issue, but wanted to mention that Tony Lee (Kalimat 
>Press) and Rob Stockman (National Center research office) 
>have been extensively arguing about the minutae of that 
>issue on talisman.

This is fine and I am quite sure it is an interesting topic for Baha'is
to discuss. However, I'd like to make an observation on this issue. The 
point
to consider for those friends who subscribe to both talisman and srb is 
that 
it  might be quite inappropriate to make "vague statements" in srb 
based on 
any issues discussed in talisman. Since srb is  mainly a forum to 
discuss the
Faith with those who have questions and  address the Christian and 
Muslim,
etc... misconceptions about the Faith. As a result sharing sporadic, 
unclear 
                                                           ^^^^^^^^  
^^^^^^^
and critical "spill overs" from the talisman with the readers of srb, 
in the
    ^^^^^^^^ 
name of offering another point of view, independent investigation of 
truth, 
etc..., does neither help the non-Baha'i readers of srb nor does it 
serve 
the best interest of the Faith. It simply confuses the non-Baha'is who 
are 
investigating the Faith and give more ammunition to the Muslims who 
find 
their classical criticisms to be nothing but childish arguments. After 
all 
Baha'u'llah says:  
          
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything 
that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely 
utterance 
be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it"

        Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 176

Please note that I have no problem with someone presenting their views 
on
srb and supporting them with the Writings. I hope the point I have 
raised 
here makes sense to you.

Please feel free to share my concern about "spill overs" from talisman
getting into srb and their potential effect on its readership.

Warm regards,

Kamran Hakim
khakim@asdg.enet.dec.com

------------ end attachment #1 of 3 -------------

------------ begin attachment #2 of 3 -------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 19:15:03 -0400
From: NetProf@aol.com
To: PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.edu
Subject: Re: re: The Maiden and the Universal House... 
(disinformation?)

Dear Eric: 
     I have no problem with your message.  Just that I am not aware 
that the
House of Justice banned distribution of the paper re: women on the 
House of
Justice.  I got a letter from the National Spiritual Assembly asking me 
not
to circulate it.  Nonetheless, if anyone wants a copy, I will provide 
it to
them.  

Love, 
Tony

------------ end attachment #2 of 3 -------------

------------ begin attachment #3 of 3 -------------

Date: Sat, 22 Jul 95 18:44:59 EZT
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Subject: service of women
To: pierceed@csus.edu


Dear eric,
yes, I have a copy of 'the service of women on Bahai institutions' by 
Lee, 
Cole, Caton, et al.. and it is in a transmittable electronic form. 
However i 
feel obliged to ask the authors before giving anyone a copy, and that 
may 
take some time. 

The paper went with two others by myself, the first a theology of the 
guardianship setting out in general terms the station and limits of the 
guardianship, the second the foreword to the collection, drawing links 
between these general principles and applications in relations to the 
letters 
of the Guardian's secretary concerning women on the UHJ. My two papers 
were 
also banned, but I'm happy in principle to release them. Problem is 
they are 
not in a transmittable format - they are in an Apple page-setting 
program. It 
would take me some time to translate them or retype.

regards

Sen

------------ end attachment #3 of 3 -------------


From rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.comMon Oct 30 11:04:36 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 20:13:01 -0400
From: Ahang Rabbani 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: longevity on NSA

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]


Dear Bill,

Many thanks for your note.  

You wrote in part:

> We could calculate the distribution of service times on the NSA 
> using a Kaplan Meier estimator.  The difficulty is in what 
> should be considered as censoring. Obviously current members 
> would be censored at the time of length of their service. But, 
> what about those who die as members, are appointed to the 
> institution of the learned, or elected to the House of Justice. 
> And there are some members who had to resign because they left 
> the country, took a sabbatical or others who went pioneering.

> ... the most difficult part of the calculation would be 
> collecting the data (which is always the case). We could start 
> in 1925, with what Shoghi Effendi indicated as the first NSA. I 
> assume we could get the names from the Baha'i News, American 
> Baha'is etc. The harder data is the censoring information based 
> upon whatever criteria was decided upon.


I fully agree with everything you stated, and very much like you 
suggestion of KM estimator.  If as you say, we had a rich 
database which showed the date of service and reason for 
termination of service then we would be in business.  But short 
of that, I think someone (David Langness or Rob Stockman?) has 
already assembled a database of NSA's membership since its 
formation in 1925.  We can just formulate the distribution of 
length of service on NSA.  This should give us some basic 
information such as the mean-time of service, variability of 
length of service, outliers, etc.

With these results in hand, one can then add a number of other 
fields to the database to define conditional distributions.  Your 
example of right-censoring due to departure from NSA is 
excellent.  Other factors such as, age at the time of election, 
race, gender, socioeconomic classification, etc., allow us to 
develop better models for predictions -- ie. developing a 
multivariate regression model.  For example, then, one can see 
what is the expected length of service on NSA by, say, a white, 
middle class guy in his mid 30's.  Or determine if there is 
difference in length of service between men or women, or among 
the races.

This could be very interesting indeed!

Which brings us to the question of DATA.  Does anyone have any 
list or data to get us rolling?  Surely someone must have put 
together a list of past NSA members with their years of service.  
So, brother, can you spare a data? 


take care, ahang. 

ps.  Back in 1988, I put together a very interesting set of data 
on service of women on Baha'i institutions.  For example, I had a 
table showing the number of female NSA members for *each* NSA for 
1953-88, in 5 year intervals.  I plotted the number of female 
Counsellors since 1968 when the office was created.  And the 
number of female ABMs since 1954, etc.  This last two items were 
divited by continents.  It basically covered all the major 
institutions.  Anyway, it clearly showed that the number of women 
serving on these institutions is really not increasing in any 
significant way and we are far from having equal representations.  
For example, the number of NSAs with *no* female members was 
stricking.  But then there were 3 NSAs in 1988 with 7 female 
members -- poor fellows who served on these NSAs probably never 
got a word in!  

Anyway, if there is interest in this sort of thing, I can dig up 
my files and post some of these statistics.  (I really should 
write a paper on it ... only if I wasn't so lazy ...) 

From rstockman@usbnc.orgMon Oct 30 11:05:57 1995
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 21:34:19 
From: "Stockman, Robert" 
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Miss Manners speaks


     
Please excuse me for commenting about some specific statements by 
quoting them. 
It is just easier and faster.  I'm glad we agree about teaching.  I've 
been 
wanting to comment about teaching for months (not just to Talimanians; 
in 
general) and my posting was the opportunity.

        <
To: 'Juan R Cole' ,
    "talisman@INDIANA.EDU" 
Subject: RE: fundamentalism

Dear Juan and Friends,

From: 	Juan R Cole[SMTP:jrcole@umich.edu]
>It has been proposed that the essence of fundamentalism is an 
>unwillingness or failure to examine critically the bases of one's 
>beliefs.

It would be more accurate to call this failure the essential
characteristic of fundamentalism.  It is quite impossible to
be a fundamentalist when one has relinquished one's death-
grip on any single point of view.

>It has been proposed that both the current functioning of Baha'i 
>institutions and any particular decisions they take should be given 
the 
>presumption of being in the right.

It has?  That's news to me.  The proposal is: the decision of
an institution is just if the decision is based upon principle.  That
is the basis upon which the Guardian rejected Louis Greggory's
appeal of a decision of the US National Spiritual Assembly.

This means, of course, that neither Rick Schaut, nor Juan Richardo
Cole, nor Judge Dorothy Nelson, for that matter, is allowed to set
his or her individual sense of justice against a decision of an
institution so long as that institution's decision is based upon
principle.

>The problem with this formulation is that it is ahistorical and 
provides 
>no answer to the question of "what then?"

No.  The problem with this formulation is that it is a straw man.

I understand your anger, Juan.  In many ways I feel it too.  Day in and
day out, I see some of the brightest minds in the Baha'i World wasting
away their talents on trying to convince themselves that they're right.
Yet, the guidance from both Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House
of Justice seems so abundantly clear, that I am at a loss to understand
why it goes so blatantly unheaded.

I have seen conclusions presented as if they were facts, and I have
seen people reach conclusions about the motives of other human
beings when the known facts can be reasonably explained under
a presumption that the judged's motives were pure.  This rush to
judgement seems to be perfectly acceptable when the people
we are judging are in positions of authority, but I have little doubt
that a similar rush to judgement of those who are down-trodden
or weak would be subject to the most vehement outcry.


I'm sorry of I have been short.  It's late, I have a cold, and I 
haven't
had more than five hours of sleep in any of the past four nights.
So, in a salute to Burl's call for action, let me leave you with
the following words from the Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Baha:

"In these days, the most important of all things is the guidance
of the nations and peoples of the world.  Teaching the Cause
is of utmost importance for it is the head corner-stone of the
foundation itself.  This wronged servant has spent his days
and nights in promoting the Cause and urging the peoples to
service.  He rested not a moment, till the fame of the Cause of
God was noised abroad in the world and the celestial strains
from the Abha Kingdom roused the East and the West.  The
beloved of God must also follow the same example.  This is
the secret of faithfulness, this is the requirement of servitude
to the Threshold of Baha! 

"The disciples of Christ forgot themselves and all earthly things,
forsook all their cares and belongings, purged themselves of
self and passion, and with absolute detachment scattered far
and wide and engaged in calling the peoples of the world to
the divine guidance; till at last they made the world another
world, illumined the surface of the earth, and even to their last
hour proved self-sacrificing in the pathway of that beloved One
of God.  Finally in various lands they suffered glorious
martyrdom.  Let them that are men of action follow in their
footsteps!"


Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut
(`Abdu'l-Baha:  Will and Testament, pages 10-11)

From dpeden@imul.comMon Oct 30 11:10:49 1995
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 95 10:15:31+030
From: Don Peden 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fault finding Missions

Dear Talispeople:

I guess I lost something in the discussion.  In terms of Assembly 
maturity,
would someone please tell me what is gained by constant criticism?  Or
perhaps I am not understanding the term "criticism".  Then again, not 
being
terribly unique, I wonder how many of us do understand the term 
criticism,
and then again, who gets to assign the definition?

There is a difference between criticism and problem identification.  It
falls in the category of "intent", and manifests itself in "the 
delivery".
Although our intent may be pure, our delivery leaves a bit to be 
learned.
There are plenty of new ways which can be tried to put the Writings 
into
practice in our communities, but  "criticism" can only be destructive.
Again, I am sure that no one on talisman wishes to handicap the 
assemblies,
obviously, from your dialogue, you all wish the Faith to manifest its
best...but folks, we ain't there yet!  Teleporting is something from 
the
Star Trek series, we haven't been able to invent it.  But keep studying
those mystical scriptures!  I'm sure the key lies in there somewhere, 
and
all those mathematical combinations are probably secret codes for the
teleporting of our physical matter into an order which reflects our
spiritual state (now there's a thought!)

One case I would like to share was when I was serving as an Auxillary 
Board
Assistant in Canada.  I was "handed" an Assembly which wasn't 
functioning.
My "mission impossible" was to get it functioning.  I did a lot of
listening, and realized that every member of that Assembly was a 
capable,
loving individual, well deepened in the Writings, and each trying to 
serve
as best they could.  I'm sure that is a familiar picture all over the 
world.
Each individual had their strengths, and their short comings (as I had 
my
own, and felt completely inadequate for the job at hand).  I was under
constant pressure from well meaning fellow Assistants to "get them 
teaching;
that will solve their problems".  I chose to ignore the advice, because 
I
just didn't see it as being the answer in this case.  (Teaching, to my 
mind,
is a product of joyful intercourse between individuals and the 
Writings.  It
is a natural by-product of a creative process.)

Being very unsure of what to do, I asked them, "What do you think?".  
What
came out was a series of events in which they were accused, abused, and 
left
feeling paralyzed to do anything for fear of making "more" mistakes.  
As a
result, they would often make decisions and deliver them in an
"authoritarian" manner.  I'm no psychologist, but I have been in the
position enough times to recognize a defense mechanism when I see one.  
So,
after consulting with the Auxillary Board member I served, the message 
I
started to feed back to them was "You're okay; you're exactly where you
should be in this stage of your development as an Assembly; mistakes 
are
part of learning; what do you need as an Assembly;  where is the next
step?".  That Assembly started to see itself in a different light, to 
claim
their right to struggle and make decisions which also implied the 
acceptance
of risk taking and making good decisions and decisions which would 
change
and evolve as their experience and understanding changed and evolved.  
They
claimed the right to be less than perfect...in "process", and the right 
to
freely consult with the community, stating that the decision that they 
were
making was an experiment, open to change and making a commitment to 
open
dialogue with community members.  If a community member got up at a 
feast
and was critical of a decision, the Assembly members listened 
carefully, and
the chairman of the Assembly would verbally confirm the validity of 
that
person's concern, and invite that individual to attend the next 
Assembly
meeting to discuss their ideas.  It did not always result in an 
immediate
change of the Assembly decision, but the individual did not feel put 
down,
or belittled.  AND IT WAS GENUINE LISTENING AND CONSULTATION THAT TOOK
PLACE...NOT A FORM OF VERBAL MANIPULATION!  Often they came away 
accepting
that even if they didn't agree with the path chosen, they would follow 
it to
see where it lead, and that their idea was duly noted for adaptation,
implementation, etc.  Also, this Assembly delegated everything they 
could,
and kept a constant dialogue with the community members about progress 
or
problems.  

They began their experiment by responding to a community request for a
deepening on Marriage.  We did not exclude those not registered as 
Baha'is,
but made them welcome and part of the discussion.  Using Fortress for 
Well
Being, we went through quote by quote, taking the time to go round the
circle and get comments from everyone, even if it was "no comment at 
this
time".  People felt free to engage or not, but the expectation of some
participation was implicit.  Two marriages were started on solid 
footing,
two new declarations were received.

This community became so confident and "centered" in their love and
devotion, they were able to move out into their community and interact 
in a
very genuine way with participating in interfaith functions, warm 
exchange
with the clergy, the rabbis and the wickkens of our community, (not 
without
its humorous moments) always looking and "dialoguing" with the positive 
in
each.  They never failed to introduce the Baha'i consultative 
principles
into the dialogues (without attaching the name Baha'i; it was already
recognized as being Baha'i because it came from the Baha'is) and having
those principles unanimously and enthusiastically adopted instead of 
Roberts
Rule of Order.  They have been able to keep up with new additions 
(sometimes
grumpy or contentious) to the community, and have struggled to ensure 
that
their children and youth are growing in a loving environment within 
that
community. I hope they continue to take chances.

I'd like to point out that I did not do anything to achieve this...they 
did.
All I did was say "It's okay, relax, don't beat yourself up.  You're 
okay,
and right on track for your development."  The basis of encouragement 
is "to
give courage" (taken from the dictionary of Bev).  Why not?  The worst 
that
can happen is nothing.

This was a small community, but does not the same principle apply to 
the
National Spritual Assemblies, and even to the Universal House of 
Justice?
Perhaps my understanding of the process is not complete, or even worse,
naive.  The Universal House of Justice is the final place to rest our 
hearts
and spread out our concerns, and we often don't allow ourselves the 
time to
absorb what they respond to us, and to experiment with its application.  

I wonder about our use of the word "committees".   To my mind, it is a
cop-out, usually fixing an image in our mind that "someone else is 
doing
it".  Perhaps a new designation which implies individuals who are 
catalysts,
enabling others to function in certain areas is needed to help change 
our
mind-set.  We need a lot of collaboration between groups.  And we need 
to do
it without everyone suffering from what I call "Baha'i meeting 
syndrome".
(Did I mention that I have a problem with large groups, crowds, and the 
hype
of "meetings" of any kind?)

Or perhaps the key is trying to identify what is the component which 
changes
when numbers are increased (especially in communities where there are 
large
influxes quickly.)  I wonder about this attitude of "just teach and all 
will
be fixed".  Do we have the right application in mind?  The right 
sequence of
steps?

I guess I'm rambling, but it is my personal opinion (and I do stress
personal), that "criticism" leads no where.  And I need to be one of 
the
first to apply this principle in my life (here I am being critical of
criticism...Catch 22).  Even "constructive criticism" is often not 
taken as
constructive, but can be damaging.  Our institution need as much
encouragement as we do to be able to feel confident to try, to grow, to 
make
choices, to accept the consequences of those choices, to learn from the
consequences, and to move on.  We need to let go of our attachment to 
what
we have been trained to think of as "constructive criticism", be it 
academic
or other, and find a new line of questioning.  (I know there is a month 
of
Questions, but there is not a month of Criticism.)  That questioning 
needs
to be sensitive to the receptor.  You don't put a 1000 watts through a 
60
watt amplifier and expect it to function after.  Our questioning needs 
to be
sensitive to its receptors, and we are a world of delicate souls, with 
all
kinds of protective walls around our hearts, and needing encouragement 
to
"come out and play". 

With all due respect to the academic institutions of the world, so many
disciplines seen to center around a process of "getting a new angle on
something" and then "defending it" while other academics (advisory
committees and such) try to poke holes in it to make sure that it 
stands up.
Then you "defend" your tenure and claim to fame from new "upstarts" who 
are
busy trying to change the status quo and make their name.  Kind of a 
funny
system, don't you think?  I wonder if that is what Baha'u'llah had in 
mind
for our supposed "Baha'i Universities".  Don Quiote, move over and hand 
us
all a new lance for the next windmill! 

I don't have answers, just questions.  And maybe I am way off base in 
my
assumptions about criticism.  But what if there is a grain of truth to 
this
idea?  Is it not possible to use our collective knowledge and search 
for a
new way of problem solving which does not involve criticism?  There 
must be
a way.  What do we have to lose by looking?

Think about it, please.  As one delicate soul, I sure need some 
kindness
when spoken to, or I disappear real fast.

Listen to me!  I should get a higher soap box.  Never mind.  After this
little tirade, I had better think about the steps needed to re-instate 
my
membership, roll up my sleeves, and do something.  I wish I could 
tickle the
place which is holding me back.  I wish we were in a place where we 
could
participate in a non-pressured deepening of some kind where someone 
would
NOT ask me about baptism.  I wish ostrichs could fly too...second 
thought,
I'm grateful they don't...the droppings would be more than my 
windscreen
could cope with.  God knew what he was doing.

I feel I am drawing closer, and I do thank Talisman for that.

Love,

Bev.

P.S.  Oh yeah!  Introduction.  I am an artist with no letters after my 
name,
but a long trail of dripping paint, shredded and reassembled canvases 
and
drawings, and bits of drying cellulose stuck to my elbows from the
papermaking vat.  I also have my car battery out on occassion to etch 
plates
for printing on my "toy" press.  Last week my business partner and I 
opened
a framing business and artists gallery/craft shop in Kampala.  If we 
don't
go broke, it will be a lot of fun to be part of for the small time 
remaining
to our family here.  Don's contract will finished in April, and we are 
faced
with job hunting and new opportunities.  (He is a scientist in the
discipline of research and development, agroforestry and related 
sciences,
systems ecology, and supervision of graduate students.  If any of you
academics out there know of any job coming up, PLEASE let us know.  

I have to be pretty inovative in my approaches to my work because of
restrictions on available materials and technology.  It's a great 
challenge.
I will never be famous, the Tate Gallery will never want to "collect 
me".
I'm okay with that.   My work is fair for the most part, full of 
colour,
with a real gem of a canvas appearing about every two years.  I believe
strongly in cycles.  For about the past two years I've been using the
"classical" method of destroying an assembled work, and incorporating 
pieces
of it into new work as it seems a fitting way of working considering my
life:  There is always a new understanding changing the old picture, 
and I
need a new way of looking at things.  So, by cutting up old work, 
gluing it
on to new canvas, using it as a starting place, I'm always
dissassemble/reassemble/dissassemble/reassemble).  There has been some 
good
work appearing lately. 

My main school has been the school of life.  I can type because I was
"programmed" in high school into the secretarial course, since this was
"appropriate work for young ladies waiting to get married, and would 
carry
us if our husband died without leaving us a fortune".  (I have refused 
to do
secretarial work  since I married).  It has been a great school, and I 
guess
I'll always be in student mode.  I've had brushes with University and 
an Art
College for a year, and was greatly interested and inspired until the
"programming" started.  I kind of value the process of discovery, and 
don't
like to be deprived of it.  I'm probably dysfunctional when it comes to
authority, but I don't worry about it too much...just one of those 
warts one
lives with.

We have lived in East Africa since 1978 with a three year soujourn back 
in
Canada. Africa has opened my heart, and my heart belongs to Africa.  I 
have
learned about love here.  I don't know what I'll do when we have to
leave...I guess I'll just live with it, and grow from the separation.  
I'll
go forward, I hope.  (But, then again, I'll probably do my spiritual 
shuffle.)

I have loved deeply, and been loved deeply.  I am grateful.

I have had the opportunity to be creative, and I am grateful.

I have felt intense pain and grief, and I am grateful.

I have had the opportunity of nursing and companioning a close friend 
to her
death, and performing the final service of preparing her body for 
Baha'i
burial.  (A common experience here, but new to me.)  And I am 
profoundly
grateful.

I'm a mother of four boys aged 11 years to 25.  They are humans I am 
happy
to have contributed to.  They did not fulfill my dreams for them (they 
were
suppose to be the perfect leaders of tomorrow and change our terrible 
war
filled world).  They are surpassing the limitations of my dreams by 
being
their own selves as honestly as they can, and I am grateful.

I've been married for twenty years to a wonderful man, full of love,
compassion, encouragement, the willingness to struggle, a desire to 
learn,
and the ability to say "sorry" and all the rest of these wonderful
attributes we call human, including warts on his soul; I am grateful.

I bear all the emotional scars of an abusive childhood, dysfunctional 
family
and all that good stuff, and I am grateful.  It has given my "roots and 
base
trunk" wonderful twists and turns, knots and bumps which have given my
character its "sculptural" form.  I love my twisted side as much as my
straight...it has created compassion.  I have survived (thanks to 
wonderful
friends) and moved forward (I hope).  And I am grateful.

I am not everyone's choice of a friend, but I have friends for whom I 
am
grateful.

I am alive, and I am grateful.

Love, Bev.



From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzMon Oct 30 11:11:26 1995
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 20:53:37 +1200
From: Robert Johnston 
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Miss Manners speaks

Dear Linda,
           Wow! I hadn't read your letter when I wrote to Bud et al 
today.
I think you came close to expressing what I think is "the balance" on 
this
matter.

A couple of sentences bothered me a bit.  You wrote:

having
>worked with patients in mental hospitals, I am quite the proponent of
>medication.  Behavior modification techniques might be helpful once a 
person is
>stabilized, but conventional psychotherapy just doesn't work in these 
cases.


Whatever the cause[s], I feel we have a million miles to go before we
really come to understand healing.  Pharmaceauticals is where we a