From jrcole@umich.eduSun Oct 22 00:47:46 1995
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 18:46:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: "Turning Point For All Nations" now available on the Web (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 23:21:02 -0500
From: Mark Towfiq
To: Baha'i Announce
Subject: "Turning Point For All Nations" now available on the Web
The new statement issued by the Baha'i International Community on the occasion
of the 50th anniversary of the United Nations, "Turning Point For All
Nations", is now available at
http://sunsite.unc.edu/Bahai/Texts/English/Turning-Point-For-All-Nations.html
If you don't want to type all of that out, just go to
http://sunsite.unc.edu/Bahai and click from there!
Versions in French and Spanish are coming soon, and will be at the same URL,
with "French" and "Spanish" substituted for "English".
Please note that this site also has The Prosperity of Humankind statement in
HTML as well.
More BIC-related things will be coming soon...stay tuned!
Allah-u-Abha,
Mark
From jrcole@umich.eduSun Oct 22 00:47:46 1995
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 18:59:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: wired world government
>From an interview with Nicholas Negroponte, MIT Multimedia Lab, in the
current issue of *Wired* magazine, p. 200:
Q. You're on record as questioning the viability of government in a
wired world. How do you see a stateless world working?
NN: The state will shrink and expand at the same time. It will get
smaller in order to be more local, with proximity and place playing a
strong role. It will get larger in the sense of being global. I don't
have a recipe for managing such a world, but its laws will have to be
more global. Cyber-law is global law.
JRIC: There is also an interesting discussion of the ways in which the
implications of cyberspace may have been overblown, in the current *New
Left Review.*
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
From friberg@will.brl.ntt.jpSun Oct 22 13:17:05 1995
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 95 19:10:16 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Christians and the Sabbath
Dear Friends;
Anna Yamaguchi, a Polish Baha'i, is teaching some of her Seventh Day
Adventist friends back in Poland about the Baha'i Faith. They are
interested, but they think that Baha'u'llah has changed the Sabbath
in direct violation of what they have been taught is of extreme
importance.
Now, she and I know that Christ also broke the Sabbath according to
the strict Jewish observances. But, this will not cut cake with her
friends because Adventist Doctrine holds that the Jewish interpretations
were wrong. So, my plea is this: do any of the Friends know how to
explain Baha'u'llah's seeming violation of the law of the Sabbath to
these Adventists? Something biblically based we would be best.
Thank you very much.
Stephen R. Friberg
From mfoster@tyrell.netSun Oct 22 17:44:28 1995
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 12:52:55 -0500 (EDT)
From: "Mark A. Foster"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Christians & the Sabbath
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Stephen R. Friberg wrote to talisman@indiana.edu:
F >So, my plea is this: do any of the Friends know how to explain
F >Baha'u'llah's seeming violation of the law of the Sabbath to these
F >Adventists? Something biblically based we would be best.
Steve,
Since I have been sporadically dating a Seventh Day Adventist lady,
I have had many opportunities to think of this issue . To me, there
are several lines of approach.
In the Tanach, the Sabbath is established as an eternal law. This
provision is what the Seventh Day Adventists, the Seventh Day Baptists,
the Church of God Seventh Day, the Worldwide Church of God (and its
offshoots, such as the Philadelphia Church of God, and the Church of God
International), and the Assemblies of Yahweh (Bethel, Pennsylvania) use
as the basis for arguing that historic Christianity had no right to
change worship from Saturday to Sunday. IOW, Ellen G. White's Seventh
Day Adventist Church is certainly not alone in arguing for the
continuation of the Sabbath.
My own approach is to focus on the meaning of "eternal," since this
word is at the root of their argument. I will put it in the form of a
question and ask, "Doesn't _eternal_ imply some condition which is
beyond time?" Then, I will ask, "Isn't the this realm beyond time the
spiritual world?" And finally, "Therefore, or so it seems to me, the Old
Testament is telling us that the Sabbath is spiritual, and I would
certainly agree with that assessment." Time is not a factor. The
Sabbath is beyond time, and we have no way of knowing how long it will
last.
I then explain how, using a Dispensational explanation of the six
Days of creation, we are now living in the Seventh Day - the Day of the
divine rest from all that He has created. Depending on the tolerance of
the individual , I might then say something about the Baha'i model of
universal and universal prophetic cycles:
The Present 506,000-year Universal Cycle consists of:
The Baha'i (universal prophetic) Cycle or Cycle of Fulfillment
^
|
|
|
|
The Adamic (universal prophetic) Cycle or Cycle of Fulfillment
Finally, I will say, in entering the Cycle of Fulfillment, we are in
the Sabbath Day - the Day of God - something which was given to us as a
_type_ in the Old Testament. And, as you know the Old Testament contains
many metaphors, or types, of persons and events which were fulfilled in
the New Testament Therefore, there is no need to practice the symbol,
since it has been fulfilled.
I hope the above will be helpful.
Loving greetings,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion *
___
* UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-)
From dann.may@s-box.misc.uoknor.eduSun Oct 22 17:45:24 1995
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 95 12:46:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: dann.may@s-box.misc.uoknor.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Iqan and Christianity
While the Kitab-i-Iqan was written to a Muslim in response to his questions, it
would be a mistake to hold
that the Iqan only addresses Muslim topics or is only of use to teaching
Muslims. The Igan is full of
references to the Bible and to biblical themes. For instance, two thirds of
part one of the Iqan (60 pages)
deals almost exclusively with the interpretation of three verses from the Bible
(Matt. 24:29-31). This
discussion begins on page 24 of the Iqan. It wasn t until I read the Iqan
several times that the Bible began to
make sense to me and my teaching work with Christians became more successful.
As another example, the
questions of Siyyid Muhammad are listed below followed with the same questions
rewritten as a Christian
might ask them.
Siyyid Muhammad's Questions
1. The Day of Resurrection. Is there to be corporeal [physical, literal]
resurrection? The world is replete
with injustice. How are the just to be requited and the unjust
punished?
2. The twelfth Imam was born at a certain time and lives on. There are
traditions all supporting the belief.
How can this be explained?
3. Interpretation of holy texts. This Cause does not seem to conform
with beliefs held throughout the
years. One cannot ignore the literal meaning of holy texts and
scriptures. How can this be explained?
4. Certain events, according to the traditions that have come down from
the Imams, must occur at the
advent of the Qaim. But many of the signs have not occurred. How can
this be explained?
See H.M. Balyuzi, Baha'u'llah: The King of Glory 164-65.
1. The "Rapture" or raising of the dead mentioned in the Gospel (1
Thess. 4:17), is it to be corporeal?
Where is the promised judgement (Isa. 9:7)? Why hasn't suffering and injustice
ceased (Rev. 21:4)?
2. Jesus Christ was crucified and was resurrected on the third day.
There are Biblical passages which
support this belief (John 20:11-18, Luke 24:34-43, 1 Cor. 15:6-7, Acts 1:3-12).
How can this be explained?
3. Interpretation of the holy texts. The Bah '¡ Faith does not seem to
conform to the common beliefs of
traditional Christianity. One cannot ignore the literal meaning of the Bible.
How can this be explained?
4. Certain events, according to the Bible, must occur at the advent of
the return of Christ. For example,
according to Scripture, the sun shall be darkened, the moon shall not give her
light, and the stars shall fall
from heaven (Matt. 24:29). None of these things have happened. How can this be
explained?
Furthermore, Abdu l-Baha once said: "In the Kit b-i- q n He (Bah 'u'll h) has
given expositions of the
meanings of the Gospel and other heavenly Books." (Promulgation of Universal
Peace 155)
I my own study of the Iqan, I have found similar biblical references for
virtually every quranic verse and
hadith mentioned. I will try to post these as we move through the Iqan.
With warmest greetings, Dann May
From snoopy@skipper.physics.sunysb.eduMon Oct 23 11:36:37 1995
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:16:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen Johnson
To: richs@microsoft.com, jrcole@umich.edu, JWALBRID@ucs.indiana.edu,
mfoster@tyrell.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: My web page...your work.
Rick Shaut, Christopher Buck, Stephen Lambden, Juan Cole, John
Waldbridge, Mark Foster, Kamran Hakim, and blessed talismanians.
Dearest Friends,
Within the next couple weeks I will be announcing the arrival of another
web page on the internet. While I expect that the web page located at my
sight will appear similar to other Baha'i pages, I am hoping that it may
be able to provide a different, and perhaps greatly appreciated,
service. Beyond the other beautiful links which other Baha'is have
provided, I hope to include ABS conference papers, provisional
translations, and other strong contributions to Baha'i scholarship on
this web page. For the moment, however, I am asking of other people with
an interest in this service for their contributions. I am specifically
picking on a few of our friends who's contributions I've happened to
save to my directory over the past year...however, I would appreciate all
significant contributions to Baha'i scholarship.
So my questions to all of you are:
1) Should such a site be available?
2) If so, what should be present on this site (obviously I cannot
display every paper which was every written by a Baha'i..perhaps
the most recent along with only the best from the past years?)
3) Do you have any papers which you believe need to be present on this site?
(*Significant Contributions*)
And to start the ball rolling:
4) To those specific people who are receiving this letter:
I would like to begin by placing the following letters and translations
on the web page. Of course, I will not place them without your specific
instructions and will allow you to preview the contents before they are
posted. (Provisional translations will be clearly noted so as not to
confuse Baha'is that it is directly sanctioned by the Universal House of
Justice.) Please respond as to your beliefs on this subject with regard
to the following papers:
Rick Schaut: Toward a Baha'i Economic Model
Christopher Buck: Tablet of the Hair, A Symbol Profile of the Baha'i Faith
Stephen Lambden: Translation of tablet on auxiliary language, trans of
Lawh-i-Halih Halih Halih, retrans of seven valleys section, trans
of Surah of Joseph, and perhaps the notes on the Tablet of the Bell.
Juan Cole: Baha'u'llah's Tablet of the Sacred Night, Ode of the Dove
John Waldbridge: The Bab's Panj ShaUn
Mark Foster: Resurrection: A Baha'i Perspective
Kamran Hakim: 6 meanings associate with the terms "Seal of the Prophets"...
Thank you for all of your time and contributions.
God Bless,
stephen johnson
>
From 73074.1221@compuserve.comMon Oct 23 11:43:17 1995
Date: 22 Oct 95 23:31:31 EDT
From: "Mary K. Radpour" <73074.1221@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman
Subject: long bio
Dear friends,
Here is the long bio requested:
Name: Mary K. Radpour
Email address: old: 73074.1221@compuserve.com new: mradpour@usbnc.org
Gender: female
Country/State and City: USA/Soddy-Daisy, Tennessee
Short list of interests: the nature of the human soul and its relationship with
the body and the psyche; family systems theory; communication theory; addictions
theory; group process; male/female issues of equality; race relations and
cross-cultural communication; sexuality/gender/identity issues; Baha'i studies;
mediation and alternative conflict resolution; good poetry and literature;
murder mysteries; music of all kinds, but esp. blues; gardening; racquetball
Post-secondary education: BA Psychology and English, Univ. Illinois, 1964;
graduate studies in teaching of English, 1965; MSSW, Clinical Social Work, Univ.
Tennessee, 1979.
Profession/Occupation: Clinical Social Worker (psychotherapist/family therapist)
in private practice, Chattanooga, TN
Date of Birth:10/19/42
Nationality:US
Year joined your religion: 1960
Countries a/o places travelled (time periods if possible): England (lst World
Congress, 1963), Iran (1965), Israel (pilgrimages, 1969 & 1988), Spain (family
reunion, 1972), Panama (dedication House of Worship ?), Jamaica
(Intercontinental Conference, 1971?), Nigeria, Ghana, and Liberia travel-
-teaching,1975), Bahamas (1978) France, Belgium, & Luxembourg, (1981), South
Africa, Lesotho, Bophuthatswana (travel-teaching, 1989)
Countries lived in: only 4 months in Iran, 1965
Generation Bahai: Second
Religious upbringing or pre-Baha'i religious heritage: Methodist on mother's
side; Missionary Baptist and heathen! on grandparents and father's side
Language(s) you can read well (capable of translating from/to): French, with
some reconointering
Language(s) you can speak fluently: kitchen Persian
List 5 non-Bahai books which you found of special or particular interest or
value:
Black and White Styles in Conflict, by Tom Kochman
When Nietzsche Wept, a psychological novel by Irving Yalom
Generation to Generation: Family Process in Church or Synagogue, Ed
Friedman
The Choice: Evolution or Extinction: Laszlo
The Culture of Disbelief, Stephen Carter
(I can count but I these must be included....)
poetry of W.B. Yeats, Emily Dickinson & Roger White
The Culture of Narcissism, Christopher Lasch
Mr. Death and the Red-Headed Woman, Lord of the Rings, & What Would
Happen if Everybody Did?
Last Bahai Books you have read : Ministry of the Custodians
Aspects of the Faith in which you are mainly interested: consultation in the
family and the Assembly/community, prayer and personal transformation, Baha'i
'psychology,' designing training methodologies that work; male/female issues;
sexuality and its role in community; race relations
Areas of particular service to the Faith: formerly: service on various LSAs,
DTCs, schools committees, Editor of Brilliant Star, Race Unity Committee;
currently: Auxiliary Board for LA, MS, AR, KY, &TN
Specific scholarly and non-scholarly areas mainly interested in: family systems,
sexuality, temperament, behavior modification, medical mysteries and
discoveries, serendipitous coincidences, the development of educational
materials to make the Baha'i writings/teachings accessible to young readers
Selected Publications: new era fairytales for children (in Brilliant Star), The
Power of Unity (with the Race Unity committee and Bonnie Taylor)
Favorite activities both in and out of the Faith: trying to identify my own
craziness before it creams me or someone else; racquetball; reading; gardening;
talking; walking; hospitality; traveling for fun, dancing at wedding and singing
in the shower!!
Favorite subjects: relationships of all kinds: parent/child, male/female,
interpersonal, conflict resolution
and general science and health issues
If health professional, what specialization: Licensed Clinical Social Worker,
specializing in abuse/trauma victims, dissociation, family systems, adolescent
issues, women's issues
Number of Baha'is of community/city in which living: about 120
Population of the community/city in which living:300,000
In what area do you possess knowledge (in small or large measure) in which you
believe you could answer questions (this is *not* an area to be humble, you will
be helping others by sharing your knowledge with them): mental illness, couples
dynamics, interpersonal relationships, sexuality (hetero and homo),
cross-cultural communication
How do you see yourself (please feel free to add as much information of yourself
as possible): mother (my best work!) and wife (my most challenging!), honorary
Persian (after 32 years of marriage), Home-maker in the new and revised sense of
the term, good listener and sometimes a good talker, sometime matchmaker,
passionate supporter of race unity, observer of process and lover of dialogue
when it is truth-seeking and not truth-obscuring, highly competitive racquetball
player, highly cooperative friend.....
What is your purpose in life: becoming a better Lover
Favorite non-Bahai quote: "No matter how bad your past is, your future is
spotless"
Favorite Bahai quote: "My calamity is My providence; outwardly it is fire and
vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy. Hasten thereunto that thou mayest
become an eternal light and an immortal spirit....."
Additional Information: Enough, already!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From burlb@bmi.netMon Oct 23 11:48:08 1995
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 95 22:28 PDT
From: Burl Barer
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Christians and the Sabbath
1. If Baha'u'llah is who He claims to be, he can do/say/proclaim/ change
whatever He wants.
2. The Sabbath, if eternal, has no end -- the day of worship and service is
the very Day in which we are now living -- this is the Sabbath -- work is
worship when done in the spirit of service and service is permissible on the
Sabbath. Hence, now that God has elevated your work to the station of
worship/service, and all days are the Day of God, the eternal Sabbath is not
violated, it is validated.
3. When Ellen G. White had her vision, she saw the 4th
commandment"illuminated" -- that would be that the meaning of the Sabbath,
not only its importance, would be illuminated -- Baha'u'llah, the Glory of
God, the Light of Lights, has shed new illumination on the entire nature and
purpose of the "Day of God" -- this day , "The Day of God Himself."
4. In the Early Writings of Ellen G. White, many of her visions relate
directly to Babi history, which were contemporary events -- note her
statements regarding the Green cord stays and the Red worn by those who rise
out of the ground -- those who have sacrificed themselves for Him in His NEW
NAME -- (martyrs for the Cause of God)
I am no expert on this stuff, but Mike Bryan here in my community came into
the Faith from quite an Adventist background of study -- these are some of
the points he mentioned tonight at dinner and I am sure that I am not saying
them exactly on target, but he has all this stuff down pat. :-)
Hope this sends you to get a copy of White's early writings -- if you want,
maybe you and Mike or another Baha'i knowledgeable in 7th day adventist
stuff can get down to, as we rock n rollers say : the real nitty-gritty.
Personally, I go for point #1 -- if Baha'u'llah is Baha'u'llah than he doeth
whatsoever....etc.
PS: Friday is our day of rest, although I know few Baha'is who take Friday off.
Burl
>
From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzMon Oct 23 11:49:28 1995
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 19:16:13 +1300 (NZDT)
From: Robert Johnston
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: one letter, three birds
This letters has three elements:
(1) Stephen Friberg's comment [to the effect] that Talismanians were a
privileged group, out of touch with "common" humanity, sparked a [what I
have already called] spirited response from Juan who said [in brief] that
not all Talismanians came from snob hill, and not everyone (anyway) from
the wrong side of the tracks got creamed on the freeway. Well, I agree
with Juan, but Stephen is right, I think, when he states that Talismanians
are a privileged bunch of people. This privilege is not nececessarily
connected to socio-economic origins: this privilege is about wealth
measured in terms of intellectual and spiritual "goods". (Was it Joan, who
drew our attention to this kind of wealth earlier?) And maybe Stephen's
intent was this: those with the goods have a responsibility to share them
-- to be generous in prosperity and thereby avoid "the admonition". To be
generous with whom? The poor of course.
(2) My bio. Well, I don't have much patience for it at the moment. I was
raised in a farming region (same place as Sonja) and eventually went, like
the country mouse, to the big city, but, unlike the mouse, couldn't go home
again. I have wandered a lot, drawn by dreams/illusions/delusions. Some
of the pathways were/are pretty obscure and unglamorous. Ever been
completely lost upon contemplating a crack in the footpath [David Taylor],
or sunlight on a peak [Eric Pierce]? Today you'll find me tutoring in
education and computing somewhere near the bottom of the South Island of
New Zealand, and also trying to do a PhD in child/human development there.
My favourite non-Baha'i books are the Analects and Plato's Dialogues. As
an unregenerate young adult I learned a lot about writing from Hemingway
and Faulkner. Anyone ever read Hesse's "Knulp"? Hemingway and Hesse were
Cancerians like me.
Anyone wanting dirt on me might be able to get some from one of the New
Zealanders on this list. I have broken bread with all of them, except
Marjo.
I enrolled in the Faith on St. Patrick's Day, 1977, after breakfast. I am
rather suspicious of biodata banks. Unlike Socrates, I have not been to
the Holy Land.
(3) Joan enquired about the distinction I was making between empirical and
intuitive. She associates (if have got it right) intuition with a deep
reading of such things as body language. My response is, "maybe". At the
exact time my father was having the stroke that killed him, I "experienced"
his loss, though I was hundreds of miles away, and uninformed (empirically)
of his plight. I wrote a poem about the experience and added the time of
day to the title -- something I had not done before, and have not done
since...
Robert.
From friberg@will.brl.ntt.jpMon Oct 23 11:50:02 1995
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 17:16:19 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: Robert Johnston ,
friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: one letter, three birds
Dear Robert:
You write:
> Well, I agree
> with Juan, but Stephen is right, I think, when he states that Talismanians
> are a privileged bunch of people. This privilege is not nececessarily
> connected to socio-economic origins: this privilege is about wealth
> measured in terms of intellectual and spiritual "goods". (Was it Joan, who
> drew our attention to this kind of wealth earlier?) And maybe Stephen's
> intent was this: those with the goods have a responsibility to share them
> -- to be generous in prosperity and thereby avoid "the admonition". To be
> generous with whom? The poor of course.
WARNING: TOUCHES OF IRONY MAY SOMEHOW HAVE CREPT INTO THE FOLLOWING!!
As a physicist, I know that truths come in nice, well wrapped
packages.
But that's not the fun part. Such truths are those that
you read in the texts after the meaning has been well digested,
ruminated on, and then processed in due manner.
It is sometimes called linear thinking. Why? Because you can
draw nice little lines (get it?) from point a) to point b) as
you follow the arguments. Sophisticated Europeans rejected
religion, and still do, because it was so messy compared to
these nice little linear diagrams. Besides, who would want
to kill anybody over such doodlings (atom bombs came later).
Now, stories! They are nonlinear (or so I'm told). They have
all kinds of wierd connections in there, which can be "vagueized"
(new term, compliments of yours truly). Its a bit like nature
and life, which rarely if ever fits into those nice little packages
that elementary physics text writers love so much. Of course,
just like the physicists, you want to get it "true". And if you do,
then, just like life, everybody is going to understand it differently.
However, in the case of my story about Socorro, there is an expert.
In fact, she chided me very severely for saying that she was an elite.
Definitely not, she said. I told her that that was the wrong answer,
but she didn't agree!
Yours truly,
Steve Friberg
From CMathenge@aol.comMon Oct 23 11:50:59 1995
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 01:33:57 -0400
From: CMathenge@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Mythopoetic Influences
Dear Talismanians,
At the ABS Conference, I attended David Langness' presentation on mythopoetic
influences and The Seven and the Four Valleys. He was talking about the
mythical hero's quest in which the hero undertakes a long and arduous journey
in the course of which he slays monsters, performs impossible tasks, etc.,
etc.
I was delighted, by the way, to hear that David has written a book called The
Seeker's Path, which falls into the popular "self-help" genre and has
actually been picked up by Penguin. This is long overdue and it's time we
did something to remedy the drastic dirth of Baha'i anything in bookstores.
I was wondering, David, if you have addressed the topic of gender differences
in the mythopoetic search at all, or if you have found anything in the Baha'i
texts or in other writings you have studied that is relevant to such a
difference. In virtually all of the mythological works, the hero is always
male. I noticed you used Dorothy (Wizard of Oz) as a modern example, and the
fact that she is female is perhaps significant, but on the whole, women
stayed home and waited while their men went out and conquered the dragons and
won the prizes. Some years ago I read Robert Johnson's book *SHE,* which
explores the feminine psychology through the myth of Psyche and Eros.
Psyche, to refresh your memory, has married Eros, unaware that he is a god,
and is not permitted to look at him, but of course she lights a candle
(consciousness) and takes an illicit peek, and a drop of the hot wax falls on
his face and awakens him, and he flies back to Mt. Olympus. Psyche wants to
drown herself in a river. Johnson points out that "When a woman is touched
by an archetypal experience, she will collapse before it. A man loses
contact with his Grail castle and sometimes spends many long years recovering
it. But a woman does not leave her Grail castle, at least not for long, and
it is in her collapse that she quickly recovers her archetypal connection"
(p. 43).
Psyche sits and waits for a solution. (This seems to be equivalent to the
acts of prayer and meditation in the spiritual search.) It seems that while
a man has to gird on his sword, mount his steed, and go out and DO something,
the feminine way is to wait until something inside her shows the way and
provides the courage.
The only way Psyche can get her husband back is to become a goddess, but she
can only do that by performing four impossible tasks set her by Aphrodite,
and after the usual manner of such stories, failure to complete any task
within the designated time means certain death. The first task involves
sorting a huge pile of seeds of many different kinds, which must be completed
before nightfall. This appears impossible, so Psyche sits still and waits,
and the ants show up and sort the seeds for her. Johnson points out that a
pile of seeds to sort is a beautiful symbolism, as in many of the practical
matters of life, a woman's task is to see that order prevails. He says that
to sort creatively, she must find her "ant nature," a chthonic, earthy
quality, and that sorting in this way enables her to break the impasse of
"too-muchness." Also, she must learn NOT to take on the job of sorting
things that do not belong to her. In addition, the anima must sort out the
influx of material from the unconscious and relate it properly to
consciousness--he calls this the "great feminine function."
Psyche then has to procure a bit of the golden fleece without being gored by
the rams, obtain a single crystal goblet of water from the River Styx, and
acquire a tiny cask of Persephone's own beauty ointment to give to Aphrodite.
Each time she is presented with one of these impossible but highly symbolic
tasks, she wants to commit suicide. But each time she is assisted from some
unexpected source.
I guess if you take this as referring to the anima, the feminine aspect in
everyone whether male or female, there is some parallel in the Writings,
where assistance is received from unseen or unexpected sources. One could
easily see Layli as symbolizing the soul of Majnun as Eve symbolized the soul
of Adam--she stays in her garden minding her own business, so to speak,
because it is his task to search for her. But I guess my question is, is
there actually any support in the Writings for the idea that there is a
difference in the way males vs. females approach the spiritual quest?
Comments, anyone?
With loving Baha'i greetings,
Carmen
From 73074.1221@compuserve.comMon Oct 23 11:54:28 1995
Date: 23 Oct 95 00:25:53 EDT
From: "Mary K. Radpour" <73074.1221@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman
Subject: protection of authors
Dear friends,
I forgot to forward this to the entire list instead of just to Rob:
Dear Rob,
I was interested in your remarks about debates about scholarly language
and the freedom exercised by some Baha'i in objecting to things published. You
suggest that further dialogue will assist in those debates and I agree. However,
as the former editor of Brilliant Star, I would like to suggest here that there
is no way to be in the publishing business, scholarly or not, and not attract
criticism. I received dozens of complaints about Child's Way and Brilliant Star
and learned a great deal about the freedom and lack of moderation with which
people complain, especially in the privacy of their own letters. We had
complaints about photos of grandfathers kissing their granddaughters
(unsanitary!) and of illustrations of little girls with their legs in the air
(eeee!!) and of cartoon figures who called others a silly fool (bad example for
children!) and of the literary merit of the stories we published, etc..... I
have recently read a criticism of an article in the American Baha'i which was
almost incendiary and I have heard from district newsletter editors of the
harangues they have experienced re not sharing the news in the most thorough of
fashions. I was initially surprised; now, however, I guess I regard it as part
of the landscape of publishing. Perhaps scholars get thick-skinned, eventually?
I do look forward to the day when critics of all kinds learn to set their
criticisms aside for a week or so to cool off so that they can then ask
themselves: is this necessary? if so, necessary for whom? is this productive?
is this timely? is this kind?
Cheers, Mary K
From a003@lehigh.eduMon Oct 23 11:59:00 1995
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 06:19:55 EDT
From: a003@lehigh.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: (fwd) Re: Mythopoetic Influences
========================= Original Message =========================
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 06:14:05 EDT
From: a003
X-Mailer: SENDM [Version 2.0.15]
Subject: Re: Mythopoetic Influences
To: CMathenge@aol.com
Dear Carmen:
Great question and I'm looking forward to some informed discussion on this
issue. My only contribution is that you're on to something. I've noticed
that in Native American coming-of-age ceremonies the tradition is, in
general, for the males to "go out into the woods" to meet their spirit
guide; for the females, they are "kept in" and processed via tribal/family
ceremony.
It seems a likely possibility that both principles exist in the female and
the male to greater or lesser degrees. And logically, both
principles exist in either ceremonial "program". Furthermore, one might
expect that, as the role of women in the world changes, the concept of
"staying home" will change as well as "going out".
Bill
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
* William George
From Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nlTue Oct 24 10:44:49 1995
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 18:39:06 +0100 (MET)
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: house of worship
Help:
Can anyone direct me to - or send me a copy of - the
statement of the Universal House of Justice which made
specific reference to the 'spiritual meetings'?
It has been suggested that I might prepare a brief statement
on the role of the House of Worship, in the broadest sense,
in the Bahai community, for our National newsletter. It
would be very helpful to tie this in to any statements or
initiatives of the Universal House of Justice or World
Teaching Centre in recent years.
thanks
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From cybrmage@niia.netTue Oct 24 10:54:32 1995
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 02:37:28 +0000
From: Bud Polk
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: bio
Dear friends,
Rothwell Conway Polk, Jr. (Bud), age 45, Baha'i since 1970.
Both grad and undergrad degreess in child development, many years
working with children. Organized and directed many Baha'i children's
programs at Green Lake, Persian Conventions, National Conventions in
the 70s and 80s.
Moved on to social and economic devlopment and community activism.
Was executive director of a number of organizations. Now partially
disabled by bipolar disorder (manic-depression).
Freelance writer nature/environment/resource management, general
news and book reviews in mags & newspapers. Writing a National
Park Service guidebook to the Indiana Dunes National Lakeshore under
contract.
Interests include birding, botanizing and natural history -- I get
lost (or found) outdoors. Mental illness and the family, mental
illness and the Faith, the genetic triggers and biochemistry of mood
disorders, mood disorders and enhanced creativity,
psychopharmacology. Of course everything about the Faith, but
expecially Baha'i history.
A few books: A Shadow and A Song (Walters), PairyErth by William
"Least Heat Moon" Trogdon, The EarthSea Trilogy by Ursula LeGuin, The
Diversity of Life by Edmund O. Wilson (please read this one if you
haven't), anything at all by John Mcphee or Bill Mckibben, some
technical botanical, ornithological and other natural sciences
books.
Married, 5 children, 3 grandchildren.
Bud Polk
From snoopy@skipper.physics.sunysb.eduTue Oct 24 10:55:15 1995
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 16:39:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen Johnson
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: My biography
Greetings friends,
My name is Stephen Johnson and I am a 24 year-old PhD student in nuclear
physics at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. In my field
I am studying the "fundamental interactions of matter" including the long
quest for a 'free quark'. I expect to be present at Stony Brook for
perhaps two more years till I finish writing my thesis.
I hail from Colorado -- from a family of a long line of Methodist
Ministers (including my father). I became a Baha'i in '89 as a senior in
high-school thanks to the loving devotion of Carl Fravel, his wife and three
daughters. I graduated from Lawrence University (in Wisconsin) in '93
and am currently here...New York...not thrilled with the place but it's
better than ....... well, some place I suppose.
My next two major life events are: (1) I get married on June
1st to Betsy Scheidet (one of the *great* things about NY) at Green Acre
and (2) we go on pilgimage next December -- six short months into our
life together.
In my life I hope to learn tremendous amounts about the Faith (more
spiritual than 'scholarly' -- in the dry sense of the word scholarly),
contribute as best I can to the overall understanding of the fundamental
forces of nature.......oh...and grow old together with my beautiful wife,
raise beautiful children and...well...live.
My life has really just begun so I have little to say beyond that...
God Bless
stephen johnson
From osborndo@pilot.msu.eduTue Oct 24 10:55:55 1995
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:26:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Donald Zhang Osborn
To: Dave10018@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Women & UHJ: Reframing the Question
Allah'u'abha David and all!
I begin with a simple rephrasing of the two questions I submitted
in my previous post, and then address some of the matters you
raise:
1. The Universal House of Justice, the highest institution in
the Baha'i administrative system, is also the only body whose
membership is limited to men. Research in social psychology has
noted differences in the way all-male, all-female, and mixed
groups function. Could there be any connection?/1
2. The Universal House of Justice is the only body in the Baha'i
administrative system which is infallible. It is also the only
institution in the Baha'i community that is single-sex (men
only). Could there be any connection?
>I am a little surprised that you haven't heard speculation about the ability
>of males and females to consult together at the exalted level of the
>Universal House of Justice before, Don. [deletion] I am quite sure I have
>heard this idea before, and it is not, in my view, an idea which bears much
>scrutiny. I will leave that discussion to others. ......................
Surprising as it may seem, I have not encountered any discussions
relating to either of the two topics I mention above (although I
did bring the first one up briefly on Bahai-discuss a couple of
years ago). If you or anyone could help enlighten me as to
previous discussions on either, I would be most grateful. Of the
ability of women and men to consult together on any matter at any
level, one has no doubt.
>.................................................. As to the question of
>apparent impropriety in a body with both men and women, this is similarly
>unconvincing. I will observe that there have been no such scandals involving
>the NSA of the United States. Although it is a controversial body in some
>respects, no one complains because two members are married to each other, or
>because one member is married to another member's mother.
Nor should they. Actually I did not consider any aspect of the
US National Spiritual Assembly's composition or functioning (or
that of any other country) when writing my previous posting. In
any event, it is essential to contrast the nature of the
institution of the National Spiritual Assemblies on one hand with
that of the Universal House of Justice on the other. They are
different in at least three significant ways:
1) The House of Justice is the highest institution in the
administrative order.
2) The House of Justice is infallible; Nat'l Spiritual
Assemblies are not.
3) The House of Justice is single sex (all men); Nat'l
Spiritual Assemblies may have any gender composition.
The House of Justice is on a different level, in my understand-
ing, and has its own special reality. If there were a scandal or
some controversy regarding a National Spiritual Assembly, it
might shake that nation's community; this cannot happen in the
House of Justice. In my second question at the head of this
posting I am asking whether the gender composition of the House
of Justice might in some way be a practical manifestation of the
divine protection of this institution against some of the
vicissitudes of human fallibility (even though it may seem
counterintuitive to many--given the historical record of male-
dominated society--to entrust infallibility to a group of
men!)?/2
>I do want to question, Don, your apparent assumption that reasons of what
>we call "practical" value are preferable to matters of "only symbolic
>value." You seem to think that symbolic reasons are less real than practical
>ones and that a search for practical reasons must be exhausted before the
>symbolic context can be considered. ....................................
By "only symbolic" I did not mean "merely symbolic," rather
"symbolic only (and not anything else)." You stated that the
reason for not having women on the House of Justice is "not
practical," and my main point was that as far as this servant has
been able to figure, such a conclusion was not yet justified.
If one approaches the issue with "both-and" logic, it may be
possible to have both symbolic and practical aspects to the
reason for an all-male House of Justice (but I do not know if
such a combination could be the justification that the Master
said would one day be apparent).
>................................... Symbolism, Don, is real and important.
>Fasting, for example, is important to us as a symbol of our control of our
>appetites and our sacrificial devotion to our Lord. By this symbolic practice
>we strengthen our dedication. Any practical benefits you can come up with,
>whether social or individual, are secondary to its symbolic purpose.
Point well taken. Other good examples are the laws against
shaving one's head or a man's hair being below his earlobes,
which may be understood as symbolic of a break with past
religious practices (Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish).
Indeed, in organizational studies there is a "frame" which
focuses specifically on the use of symbolism in organizations.
In this sense the symbolic and the practical really merge--
certain use of symbols can motivate, create new realities, affect
morale and performance, etc.
In the case of the House of Justice, Abdu'l-Baha tells us that
the reason for the House of Justice membership being limited to
men will (eventually) be as clear as day. Perhaps that reason
will become apparent as a result of our strivings or perhaps due
to circumstances or discoveries we have not imagined. Perhaps
the reason will turn out to be more "symbolic" or "practical," or
some of both at the same time.
>Ask yourself, Don, why you want a "practical" explanation. ..............
I want the truth. My understanding of the harmony of science and
religion leads me to look first for "practical" explanations. (I
would like to ask if you tend to look first to symbolism [sincerely,
not as a retort, since this can be another type of diversity], but I
should reread your original posting first.)
>......................................................... And how do you
>explain the patriarchal imagery in the Faith?
Frankly, I haven't thought much about it, so I must thank you for
bringing the subject up and for challenging me by connecting it
with the issue of the Universal House of Justice membership.
Nevertheless, my original questions stand.
Don Osborn osborndo@pilot.msu.edu
Michigan State University
1. Has there, for instance, been any research on the Baha'i
consultation process among groups of different gender composition
(to compare the various strengths/different character of each)?
This could be quite interesting regardless of what the findings
are.
2. In other words, since men and women as individuals are
equally fallible, how might the gender composition of the House
of Justice relate to its functioning as an infallible
institution?
From mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.caTue Oct 24 10:57:12 1995
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:37:26 -0600
From: Gordon McFarlane
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Cause & Community / Put to Proof
Cause and Community / Put to Proof
Dear Friends:
I have been reading with interest, many of the responses to Bev and
Don Peden's question re. the distinction between Cause and Community, and
reflecting a great deal upon my own attitudes toward the Baha'i Community -
locally, nationally and globally. I have been lying low myself for the past
7 months, having been mercifully granted a repreive by Baha'u'llah after 15
continuous and often torturous years of assemlby service. I have been
frustrated by seemingly fanatical or "fundamentalist" Baha'is; by
Bureaucratic Baha'is; by All-Molasses- No- Beans-Baha'is; by Baha'i
Rambos who have chosen to trhow off the shackles of administration,
consultation, and regulation and have set out on their own to
single-handedly conquer humanity in the name of Baha'u'llah; by those who
appear to believe that consultation means coming up with a good idea,
talking it to death and coming up with another good idea . . . etc. etc. etc.
I have as yet to develop a category in which I can place myself!
This past week I printed out, in large 46 pt. type, 3 quotes from the
Baha'i Writings and plastered them on the wall over my workspace. .
1. "Do men think when the say 'We believe' they shall be let alone and not
be put to proof" (Kitab'i Iqan pg. 9 - Baha'u'llah quotes from Koran 29:2)
2. "The Wisdom of every command shall be tested" (from the Tablet of Ahmad)
and, From Shogi Effendi's "World Order of Baha'u'llah"
3. "This New World Order, whose promise is enshrined in the Revelation of
Baha'u'llah, whose fundamental principles have been enunciated in the
writings of the Center of His Covenant, involves no less that the complete
unification of the entire human race." (pg. 162)
At this point, I have to ask my self - " If the Cause of Baha'u'llah is to
bring about the unification of the entire human race", can we, or should
we, distinguish between Cause and Community? If we say we believe that this
Cause can bring about the unity of the entire human race, do we think we
will be "let alone and not put to the proof"? And what better way is there
to put our belief to the proof than to be thrust into the midst of those
people with whom we feel most disunited.
My daughter, when she was in the 5th and 6th grades, would come home
grumbling about, and criticising other kids. In my most Baha'i like manner I
would admonish her not to judge others without "getting to know them". I
quoted Abd'ul Baha - "If a man has 10 bad qualities and one good one, we
should overlook the 10 and focus on the one." Henceforth my daughter made
it her mission in life to follow her father's advice, bringing home every
"sleaze bag" and "scum bucket" in her school in order to "get to know
them", and identify and magnify their one good quality. And when I
criticised her choice of friends - - - - - "Dad, didn't you always tell me .
. . . etc.? " Man, did she put me to proof! Most of these kids turned
out O.K.. One of them is my son-in-law.
In a previous posting on Talisman, Burl Barer mentioned Dr. Muhadjirs
(sp.?) advice that we should " teach those who are easy to teach first,
then the hard ones will become easy". I have heard Burl use this quote on
several occasions and on the first occasion I thought it was good sound
advice. But I have found that those who are easiest to teach do not ask the
difficult questions; and through attempting to answer difficult questions
I'm able to deepen my understanding of the Faith. Another reason I'm
inclined to disagree with this advice is that, after years of involvement
with a variety of well intentioned organizations, my main complaint is that
they are all continually preaching to the converted. Those who are
easiest to teach will encounter the Faith, (if it's visible enough) and be
attracted to it. If they see the evidence that the Baha'i Community is
striving (and I emphasise striving) to live up to the high ideals of its
Faith, they will no doubt enter of their own accord. It is those who, when
we say we belief, put us to the proof, from whom we can learn the most.
There is another quote, not from any of the central figures of the Faith,
but from Horace Holley, which I frequently refer to and more frequently
forget. It is from his article "Aims and Purposes of the Baha'i Faith" which
can be found in Volume XII and XIII of the Baha'i World (pp1-2) and probably
elsewhere.
"The forms of traditional opposition vested in nationality, race, class and
creed are not the only social chasms which the Faith has bridged. There are
even more implacable, if less visible differences between types and
temperments, such as flow inevitably from the contact of rational and
emotional individuals, of active and pasive dispositions, undermining
capacity for co-operation in every organized society, which attain mutual
understanding and harmony in the Baha'i community. FOR PERSONAL
CONGENIALITY, THE SELECTIVE PRINCIPLE ELSEWHERE CONTINUALLY OPERATIVE WITHIN
THE FIELD OF VOLUNTARY ACTION, IS AN INSTINCT WHICH BAHA'IS MUST SACRIFICE
TO SERVE THE PRINCIPLE OF THE ONENESS OF MANKIND. A Baha'i community,
therefore, is a constant and active spiritual victory, an overcoming of
tensions which elsewhere come to the point of strife. No mere passive creed
nor philosophic gospel which need never be put to the test in daily life has
produced this world fellowship devoted to the teachings of Baha'u'llah . . . .
A Baha'i community endures without disruption because only spiritual
problems can be solved. When human relations are held to be political or
social problems they are removed from the realm in which rational will has
responsibility and influence. The ultimate result of this degradation of
human relationships is the frenzy of desperate strife - - the outbreak of
inhuman war.
I owe a thank you to the members of Talisman. You've put out some hard,
soul agitating, proof seeking questions. After these past months of lying
low, I think I'm ready to re-enter the fray.
Uncongenially but lovingly,
Gord.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzTue Oct 24 10:57:33 1995
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:59:14 +1300 (NZDT)
From: Robert Johnston
To: "Stephen R. Friberg" , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: one letter, three birds
Dear Stephen,
The Socorro story WAS great. [May the walls of my eternity
have at least one Socorro story posted on them!]. However, perhaps the
Enlightenment physicist in you promoted the rather excessive desire to
provide a "neat" moral. Triumphalist physicists and religionists unite!
[You have nothing to lose but your artistry!] Oh dear, eat your heart out
Salvidor Dali! & where's Burl Barer when I need him?
Ever fondly,
Robert ("Am I Going Mad, Mary?") Johnston.
From LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.eduTue Oct 24 11:15:16 1995
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 95 15:04:44 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: communication
Resent-From: "Steven Kolins"
Resent-To: owner-talisman@indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 19:14:49 EDT
Dear Robert, I do appreciate your open and frank message to me. Me,
intimidating? (I've only been told that a few times before in my life - by an
ex-marine, a tribal Afghani honcho, a few Lebanese Shi'ite men... So, I don't
know where you are getting this idea about me.)
I suppose I was getting overheated. I tend to become very involved with the
people in my life and respond strongly to their suffering. I am no model of
detachment by any means. I agree with the idea that we are all in this world
together and that it is difficult to divide up the world into good and evil.
That was not my point.
I have noticed a trend in American society, though, for relations between men
and women to have deteriorated. I am hardly the only one to have noticed such
things. For example, I met a young black woman in O'Hare one day and we struck
up an instant friendship. One of the first things she asked me was whether I
thought that things were getting worse between men and women. This was
obviously something preying on her mind. Many women are troubled by this and
for very good reason. Women and children are especially vulnerable when things
go awry socially. At this point, I am not blaming any one group. I think a
number of factors came together that contributed to this deterioration - not
the least of them being the sexual liberation movement.
When we intellectuals talk about the equality of men and women, we often refer
to education, job opportunities, career advancement, etc. However, while some
women are definitely benefitting by societal changes, others have been left in
the dust. It's really hard to advance in a job or get a good job to begin with
if you are abandoned by your spouse (or the father of your children) or being
beaten. The statistics are out there. A healthy percentage of people living
in poverty in the U.S. are single women and their children. Because women are
tied to children in a way that men are not, women's life experiences are
extremely different from those of men. Even if women were viewed as equal
competitors in all jobs, they still would be at a tremendous disadvantage just
because they are not free agents. They face pregnancy and are generally the
ones responsible for child care.
Now, I seem to be going off on another tangent. But, actually, I see the abuse
of women and the desertion of women as being very tightly connected. A man is
far more of a free agent than is a woman. A man is far less vulnerable than a
woman. There are reasons to address women's problems separately from men's.
It is not because I want to portray men as evil and women as victims. It is
just that it muddies things way to much if you don't sort out the distinctions.
In fact, I am very much opposed to some feminist thinking because I believe
that some of the more vocal feminists have done a disservice to so many women
in this world by not focusing on some of the very basic problems that women
face.
Man hating is not my message. Rather, it is an expression of hope that men (and
other women, women who are more privileged) will become sensitized to the
particular problems that women face. Robert, you talked about psychological
rape. Have you ever spoken to a woman who has actually been raped? Do you
listen to the words of the Bosnian Muslim women who have been raped by the
Serbs? Believe me, I would much rather be killed than go through what they
have gone through. Then, only my body would be destroyed. But rape destroys
the soul.
I really have said far more on this subject than I had ever intended to here on
Talisman. It is funny. I had this feeling after the O.J. verdict that men -
the kind of men I like, sensitive kind ones, the ones' I imagine Talisman men
being like - would go out on the streets and protest the abuse of women after
they saw what O.J. had gotten away with. I am now marveling at my naivete.
However, I do appreciate a forum where I could express my feeling about a
subject that is of such great concern to me. Thanks all for your patience. I
realize I was a bit strident. Linda
From carl@grapevine-sys.comTue Oct 24 11:18:44 1995
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 22:26:04 -0500
From: Carl Hawse
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Talisman/ABS/Baha'i Scholarship Web Page
Dear Talismanians, Talismanites, Talismaniacs, Talisfolk, etc.:
I think the idea of putting scholarly studies on the Internet is a great
idea! I'm thinking a lot these days about ways to add significantly to the
amount of Baha'i material on the net, but haven't come to any firm
convictions about the best way to approach it. I'd love to hear more ideas
about what people out there are willing to contribute!
I'd be happy to offer some web space to material aimed at the more
average-joe-shmoe type reader. I'm not advertising my pages heavily because
they need ressurection and renewal, but I'd get moving for the sake of new
material.
------------------------------------
Carl Hawse
------------------------------------
From carl@grapevine-sys.comTue Oct 24 11:19:13 1995
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 22:26:08 -0500
From: Carl Hawse
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: KI: pp.3-5 and Tao
". . . unless and until he ceases to regard the
words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for
the true understanding and recognition of God and
His Prophets." - KI
This phrase sounded a bit Taoist to me, so I'll toss out some quotes. If
you abandon your symbols, you abandon your prejudice, and are detached in a
way which will allow you to experience truth, as-is.
"In the first chapter of the Lao-tzu we find the statement: 'The Tao
that can be comprised in words is not the eternal Tao; the name that can be
named is not the abiding name. The Unnameable is the beginning of Heaven
and Earth; the namable is the mother of all things.' . . . The Tao, however,
is unnameable; at the same time it is that by which all namables come to be."
"The Taoists maintained that the sage who has a complete understanding
of the nature of things, thereby has no emotions. This, however, does not
mean that he lacks sensibility. Rather it means that he is not disturbed by
the emotions, and enjoys what may be called 'the peace of the soul.' As
Spinoza says: 'The ignorant man is not only agitated by exxternal causes in
many ways, and never enjoys true peace in the soul, but lives also ignorant,
as it were, both of God and of things, and as soon as he ceases to suffer,
ceases also to be. On the other hand, the wise man, in so far as he is
considered as such, is scarcely moved in his mind, but, being conscious by a
certain eternal necessity of himself, of God, and things, never ceases to
be, and always enjoys the peace of the soul.' (Ethics, Pt. 5, Prop. XLII.)
Thus by his understanding of the nature of things, the sage is no longer
affected by the changes of the world. In this way he is not dependent upon
external things, and hence his happiness is not limited by them. . . ."
- from Feng Yu-Lan, "A Short History of Chinese Philosophy,"
Copyright 1948 by The Macmillan Co., reprinted in
Readlings in Eastern Religious Thought: Chinese and Japanese Religions
( Edited by Allie M. Frazier), Copyright 1969 The Westminster Press,
pp.92, 129
*whew! long citation...*
Feng Yu-Lan also says "The Tao is nameless and so the sage who is one with
the Tao is also nameless." This line makes me think of 'Abdu'l-Baha, who,
it seems to me, abandoned his name and came to be known by a phrase which is
descriptive, rather than one which acts as a symbol merely for
identification purposes: "Servant of Baha." (Perhaps even "Baha'u'llah" can
be said to be descriptive as well? )
In the opening paragraphs of the Kitab-i-Iqan, Baha'u'llah prepares our
minds to receive the certitude within. The answers to our questions.
Either that, or it's an old-fashioned Surgeon General's warning: "Danger,
closed minds have been shown to impede absorbtion of spiritual messages. Do
not operate heavy concepts under the influence of prejudice."
------------------------------------
Carl Hawse
From carl@grapevine-sys.comTue Oct 24 11:19:34 1995
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 22:26:11 -0500
From: Carl Hawse
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: HW: I was going to say...
In a posting on "Women and the House: Reframing..." Donald Zhang Osborn said
>Indeed, in organizational studies there is a "frame" which
>focuses specifically on the use of symbolism in organizations.
>In this sense the symbolic and the practical really merge--
>certain use of symbols can motivate, create new realities, affect
>morale and performance, etc.
This is exactly what I was thinking when reading the Hidden Words.
HW#1Persian:
O YE PEOPLE THAT HAVE MINDS TO KNOW
AND EARS TO HEAR!
The first call of the Beloved is this: O mystic nightingale! Abide not
but in the rose-garden of the spirit. O messenger of the Solomon of love!
Seek thou no shelter except in the Sheba of the well-beloved, and O
immortal phoenix! dwell not save on the mount of faithfulness. Therein is
thy habitation, if on the wings of thy soul thou soarest to the realm of
the inifinte and seekest to attain thy goal.
Which can be stripped down to these exhortations:
Do this first:
Be spiritual.
Turn to God when in need.
Have faith.
Because if you want it, you've got to follow the program.
The phrasings "the Beloved" "mystic nightingale" "rose-garden" "Solomon of
love" "Sheba of the well-beloved" all are linguistic pointers toward the
spiritual realm. They *sound* spiritual. When Baha'u'llah says "O ye
people..." any open minded person will go "Hey, that's me! I have a mind to
know!" Having the phrase "O immortal phoenix" directed at you can be
inspiring: "Maybe I CAN be a phoenix... immortal... yeah, that's the
ticket! Yeah! What do I have to do?"
My commments are for the English version only. I realize that there are many
allusions and literary qualities in the Hidden Words, but those are
completely lost on me (as well as probably most English readers) and I'm
just now learning about Arabic and Persian (Islamic, Babi, etc.) culture and
I haven't read the Qur'an. But there is no denying the power of the
symbolic language used in the Hidden Words!
------------------------------------
Carl Hawse
carl@skipper.grapevine-sys.com
http://www.grapevine-sys.com/~carl
------------------------------------
From dpeden@imul.comTue Oct 24 11:19:55 1995
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 95 06:53:52+030
From: Don Peden
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: cause and community/ put to proof
Dear Gordon:
Thank you for your response. Based on those writings, you have given us
much to think about. The quotation from the Kitab-i-iqan is one of my
favourite.
I should clarify a point. For myself, I have rarely had my faith shaken by
individuals in the community (or even outside). A test they have been, but
we are all on a journey, and have different paths to travel. If someoneelse
had a different path to mine, one that was unfamiliar to me, or foreign, it
did not stop me on my own journey. I always had faith that Baha'u'llah had
put the institutions there to correct any mistaken tangents we might go off
on (including my own). I had faith that this was Baha'u'llah's gift to us.
Where my faith was shaken was when I perceived those very institutions
condoning and promoting a very fundamentalist approach, and declaring it the
Baha'i way, I was shaken to my very core. Thus, my letters to the National
Spiritual Assembly and the Universal House of Justice, and a really hard
look at the Baha'i community as a whole and myself.
As earlier shared, the Institutions have responded, and restored my faith in
that process. But I am still going through "damage control" on myself, and
doing my spiritual shuffle to put all the pieces together. It is not a
linear process...kind of like one of my canvas. I have no idea what is
coming when I start...I just keep putting pieces together in different ways,
until I "see" what is trying to find form and relationship. It is a process
of discovery.
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and thoughts,
Bev.
From CMathenge@aol.comTue Oct 24 11:20:05 1995
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 00:00:46 -0400
From: CMathenge@aol.com
To: jrcole@umich.edu
Subject: Re: Mythopoetic Influences
In a message dated 95-10-23 11:51:12 EDT, you write:
>Carmen--what a nice post! cheers Juan
>
Why, thank you--how kind of you to say so!
Carmen
From dpeden@imul.comTue Oct 24 11:20:41 1995
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 95 06:53:39+030
From: Don Peden
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Cause and Community
Dear Tony:
Sorry if I gave you the impression that a perfect Baha'i community was in
order. Did I use that word? I rarely do, because, like you, I find it an
ideal, and if sought, often destructive. Like many pilgrims, I keep my eyes
focused on my feet, putting one foot in front of the other, with the
occasional head-raised gaze when I stop to take my bearings. I call it my
"Spiritual Shuffle", and am thinking of creating some music for it, and
starting a new dance craze...one step forward, two steps back, three steps
forward, one step back. I have taken great pains to teach the step to my
children. It allows them to explore, to forgive themselves when they goof,
and to know my famous words which apply to all occassions, "This, too, will
pass." Keeps them going when they are down, and keeps them humble when they
are up.
Baha'i communities are not perfect, but we have participated and been part
of some which are very warm, welcoming, and creative places to be. It was a
very strange experience to have my feet and my gaze in the same place. They
were not places of sweetness and light, as we often had differing opinions,
and those who resented being dragged into yet another change to their
thinking by someone else in the community posing an uncomfortable question
or idea. But we engaged fully in the fray, and there were rules to the
consultation (unspoken, but practiced) which did not allow anyone to
"attack" another. Separately, we were individuals, but as an assembly of
community members, on occassion (not always), when we were united in our
compassion and our love, and focused on prayer and solution, we were a
community. One time one of our community members husbands came to collect
her after a meeting. He was invited in, as we always did, and made welcome
and part of us. Afterwards, he asked his wife "What were you guys doing in
there! The atmosphere was so choice, it was like nothing I have ever felt
before." We had just finished praying and consulting on whether or not my
husband and I should pioneer to Africa. He later became a member of the
Baha'i Community. (No, this was not the community in which our children
were entrusted, unfortunately.) No doubt these communities will "swell and
fade" in their character as old and new members pass and leave. Such is
life. But what a gift to have caught a glimpse of what is possible, and was
a reality, not an ideal.
Still, it was wonderful to bath in the warmth, and it makes the cold seem
all the colder. Fire tablet stuff. I have also experienced warm and loving
community life outside the faith, but rarely. You will find such
communities in all religious disciplines. So, again, you are right. It is
a groundswell which will happen. You will also find communities like this
in sectarian circles, as they are everywhere. We call them "friends" and
they are the people we turn to in times of joy or trouble to share with.
They need not carry the label Baha'i.
Don had an interesting insight into the issue of vulnerability. He found it
interesting that even in the early tribal days of man (as opposed to our
later version of tribalism), the community/tribe was a place of protection.
With its structure, it allowed its members to feel comfortable, grow,
prosper and feel safe, with known parameters to operate within. They could
afford to make themselves somewhat vulnerable to each other, creating links
and ties which sustained them. It gave them the strength to go outside
their tribal community, and bring back whatever was needed to serve the
tribal group, like a mastadon or something. It is a poor analogy, and I do
apologize. Perhaps someone can help to put it in a more refined manner. Do
you think this has any connection to teaching experiences?
Bev
In the faith, we are constantly told that the relationship of
God/marriage/family/community is our "tribal" order. What we talk about
when we talk about community, is expanding the "tribe" to include the global
community.
>Well, and sceptical he should be. Why should anyone believe that the Baha'i
>community has anything to offer if it doesn't go about offering it. But, I
>am afraid that the search for the perfect community--or even the good
>community-- is eternally doomed to end in frustration and failure.
> I have come to believe that the Baha'i community is no better or worse
>that the general moral level of mankind as a whole, and the idea that it is
>morally or spiritually superior in any way to the generality is a dangerous
>and misguided notion. As the moral and spiritual condidtion of humanity
>improves, so will the Baha'i community improve, and not before. After all,
>we are dealing with human beings here, not with artificial abstractions (the
>"Cause"). I am committed to this community precisely because it is human (
>in the same way I am committed to the improvement of humanity), not because
>it is "spiritual" or moral. As I have come to believe that our highest
>commitment must be to the human, not to the abstract. I am afraid that the
>search for the perfect community--or even the community that lives up to its
>ideals--is the search for the abstract, not the search for the human.
> This is not to say that your son should be a Baha'i, by the way, which is
>something that I consider none of my business. As you say, that is entirely
>between him and God. I am only interested in his human qualities of pain,
>and healing, that I think are not served well by Baha'i notions of a perfect
>(or at least more spiritual) community of believers. As far as I am
>concerned, there is no such thing--except in the abstract, of course. It is
>an ideal, a hope, a wish, a guide, an aspiration, and so forth. Certainly,
>it is not--and never will be--a reality. To use it as an ideal is healthy
>and healing, I believe. To act as though it is a reality (in spite of the
>obvious evidence to the contrary) is, I think, quite destructive.
>
>Warmest,
>Tony
>
>
From CMathenge@aol.comTue Oct 24 11:20:59 1995
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 00:02:58 -0400
From: CMathenge@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Service and Motive
Dear Talismanians,
Commenting belatedly on a post by Burl Barer of some days ago,
> I well understand "Super-Baha'i
>Burnout" -- that interesting combination of love, dedication, perfectionism,
>and self-destruction where one believes that "If I don't do it it won't get
>done, or it won't get done well/right" -- often a true observation :-)
-skip-
> I would rather achieve excellence in all things by choosing to
>do a few things with excellence than take on everything and do a lousy
>job at most of them. Besides, sometimes it is *best* to moderate your
>efforts for maximum impact. I used to say YES to everything, volunteer for
>EVERYTHING, accept responsibility for EVERYTHING -- but that keeps others
>from having the joy of burnout to which, as a Baha'i, they are certainly
>entitled. :-)
-skip-
>It also requires an examination of motive -- the essential one for me is
>love of Baha'u'llah. The reason we do it is love of Baha'u'llah.
Yes, I believe what Baha'u'llah requires of us is to utilize the gifts He has
given us in His service in the best and most effective way we can--with the
motive of pleasing God, not that of getting approval or validation from other
people. When we take on the job of fixing the whole world, we become too
scattered to use our own talents effectively. Unfortunately, attachment is a
part of the human condition, and we often find ourselves getting burned out,
not because we were working to capacity with the pure motive of pleasing God,
but because we were wearing ourselves out helping people who didn't want to
be helped (controlling) or helping people who would be better off doing it
for themselves (enabling). The motive, as Burl pointed out, is the key to
the whole process. (Of course there are situations when one really is called
to do something one has never done before and may or may not do adequately,
because there genuinely is no one else to do it, but that's a different
matter.) Some years ago I knew of a community where a single family had been
the mainstay of the community for years and years, organized all the Feasts
and Holy Days, made sure the LSA held meetings, etc., etc. This was very
stressful for them, as there were a number of Baha'is who had been inactive
for years and simply could not be prevailed upon to make any contribution.
This family left to pioneer elsewhere, and lo! suddenly several people who
had not been seen for years began appearing at Feasts, Holy Days, and LSA
meetings and taking an active role in the community. Enough said--you get
the picture.
With loving Baha'i greetings,
Carmen
From jwinters@epas.utoronto.caTue Oct 24 11:25:07 1995
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 03:57:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jonah Winters
To: Ahmad Aniss
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Creation, full quote
On Tue, 24 Oct 1995, Ahmad Aniss wrote:
> Dear Talismanians,
>
> I would like to see the following quote being discussed on Talisman
> I like to know what all others think this paragraph means."
Ahmad then posted the paragraph from Lawh-i-Hikmat beginning "That which
hath been in existence." I think that this para can not be divorced from
the immeiately preceding one if we are to glean any insights into its
meaning. So here is the preceding one, as well, followed by some comments:
"As regards thine assertions about the beginning of creation, this is a
matter on which conceptions vary by reason of the divergences in men's
thoughts and opinions. Wert thou to assert that it hath ever existed and
shall continue to exist, it would be true; or wert thou to affirm the
same concept as is mentioned in the sacred Scriptures, no doubt would
there be about it, for it hath been revealed by God, the Lord of the
worlds. Indeed He was a hidden treasure. This is a station that can never
be described nor even alluded to. And in the station of `I did wish to
make Myself known', God was, and His creation had ever existed beneath
His shelter from the beginning that hath no beginning, apart from its
being preceded by a Firstness which cannot be regarded as firstness and
originated by a Cause inscrutable even unto all men of learning.
That which hath been in existence had existed before, but not in the
form thou seest today. The world of existence came into being through the
heat generated from the interaction between the active force and that
which is its recipient. These two are the same, yet they are different.
Thus doth the Great Announcement inform thee about this glorious
structure. Such as communicate the generating influence and such as
receive its impact are indeed created through the irresistible Word of
God which is the Cause of the entire creation, while all else besides His
Word are but the creatures and the effects thereof. Verily thy Lord is
the Expounder, the All-Wise."
This is surely one of the most esoteric statements of cosmology in all of
Baha'u'llah's writings! To respond to Ahmad's immediate question on the
meaning of the active and recipient forces, my first temptation would be
to see this as a theosophic interpretation of the Word of God acting on
the created realm. But this doesn't really seem to fit Islamic mystical
thought well. An interpretation that seems more appropriate can be
gleaned from the Sufi notion of the "eternal creation." Izutsu wrote a
great essay on this entitled "The Concept of Perpetual Creation in Islamic
Mysticism and Zen Buddhism," in the book _Creation and the Timeless Order
of Things_, published by our lurking friend Steven Scholl.
To summarize part of this notion, creation as a tangible realm of
everyday perceptions is bound up with the notion of time such that we
must say it had a beginning. But in the "domain beyond reason," i.e. the
state of mystical awareness of the subtle realms, it is seen that both
creation and God are co-eternal. God's creative impetus is thus logically
prior, not temporally prior. That is, God's command "Be" did not come
first in the sense of happening a second or a minute before things came
into being, but rather His command came first in the sense of being the
cause of contingent creation, the ontological substratum of reality, the
Self-Sufficient. In this interpretation, perhaps God's command could be
said to be the active and the contingent to be the passive. These two are
different in that they do not share the same ontological status, they are
not equally "Real," and they are the same in that, from another
perspective, all is God and God is all. This creation is perpetual
because, since God did not create everything at one specific moment in
time and then go away, we can't say that His being the cause of creation
is finalized. Creation is ongoing, every moment the universe is created
afresh, for, were God to cease creating or to withdraw His support, the
universe would instantly cease to be. Continuing in this line, those
which communicate the generating influence, i.e. the power supporting
perpetual creation, and those which receive its impact, are seen as both
being separate from God, meaning that God's Word is not a manifestation
of His Essence, but an emanation from it, for it is distinct from His
essence.
Fascinating tablet, isn't it? I find these two paragraphs all the more
intriguing becasue they seem to have no relation whatsoever to the rest
of the tablet! Immediately before this, Baha'u'llah was offering ethical
advice and lamenting His ill-treatment, and then out of nowhere brings up
this!
-Jonah
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
From burlb@bmi.netTue Oct 24 11:25:49 1995
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 95 01:05 PDT
From: Burl Barer
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: bio
Ok -- here is a basic bio repost from Burl Barer.
I was born in a cross-fire hurricane in a house in the driving rain...ooops,
I mean, I was born and still live in Walla Walla, Washington. Population
approx. 30,000 not counting those locked up in the State Penitentiary for
being Hispanic without a license or for excess melanin possession. The big
campaign around here is to garner suport for the new children's prison. We
need to send a strong message to our kids that youth will not go unpunished.
If we can't send 'em to war, we can sure as hell send em to jail.
I am 48 but look much younger :-) and still think of myself as a youth --
hence I am always afraid of being arrested for impersonating an adult.
Became a Baha'i in Seattle in February of 1970 after intensive investigation
-- not of the faith, but intensive investigation of how all that paisly gets
into the air and why it moves in time to the music. #-)
My "profession" is being an author and "media person." I write books on
worldly topics such as show-business, pop culture, mystery/adventure, and
true crime. You are invited to order my current book from a bookstore near
you [Derek has several copies of my latest masterpiece for sale].
I have no degrees, sad to say, although I once tried to get a mail-order
Masters Degree in Metaphysics but ran out of money before I hit the crown
chakra. . Britt Barer (beloved spouse) is the educated/educator in the
family. She teaches alternative eduation at WWCC. We have two kids: Anea
Bergen Barer (17) who goes to Whitman College, Jordan Reed-Rabani Barer (13)
I am a rock n roller at heart -- listen to Bob Dylan & Mott the Hoople and
am a former rock n roll DJ in the Seattle radio market -- a living legend in
my own mind and a wellknown has-been.
From friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp
Tue Oct 24 11:26:19 1995
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 95 17:25:32 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: Ahmad Aniss
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: creation
Dear Dr. Aniss:
The quote from Baha'u'llah is:
> The world of existence
> came into being through the heat generated from the
> interaction between the active force and that which is its
> recipient. These two are the same, yet they are different.
Your question is: What or who is the "active force" and what and who
is the "recipient".
Very difficult. Is this a statement of physics or of metaphysics?
If physics, then we need to know how the words map onto the current
meanings of several words: active force, heat, and that which is its
recipient.
"Active Force" could mean the usual forces of physics.
"Heat" in physics refers to the movement and energy of things. A
freeway with lots of moving cars is hot, whereas a parking lot is
cold.
"The recepient of the active force" is very difficult. It could
refer to inanimate matter, or perhaps even time-space geometry.
So, conceivably, you could see it as a kind of cosmological statement
consistent with our modern Big Bang theories where the active force
and heat have consistent interpretations. The recepient could refer
to something there.
Metaphysically, the statement is very similar to yin-yang theories
which describe phenomena as the interaction of opposites. Electricity
and magnetism is an example of such a theory, but not a very subtle
one. The I-Ching, an interesting "catalogue" of advice for ancient
Chinese bureaucrats was based on such yin-yang theories, as is Chinese
medicine.
If you turn from questions of "what" to questions of "who", then there
seems to be a question of teacher and student. In terms of mind, this
dichotomy describes both the ability of the mind to create
understanding and to receive understanding. If you believe, as I do,
that religion is an attempt to extrapolate to a higher level from the
evidence about existence that we find in examining how our own and
other peoples mind works, and if we accept the possibility that
the world is created by something similar to what we at a lower level
call mind, then this statement becomes a little bit simpler.
Yours respectfully,
Stephen R. Friberg
From snoopy@skipper.physics.sunysb.eduTue Oct 24 11:31:37 1995
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 09:45:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen Johnson
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: KI: pp.3-5
Dearest Friends...
In the first paragraph of the Iqan, it says:
> No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding
> except he be detached from all that is in heaven and
> on earth.
Two things:
First: This first few words of the Iqan have not been translated into
English (after: Howa `ali'u'l a'la). I do not have my copy of the Iqan
in Farsi/Arabic with me here but I remember that I was confused with the
first few words...if anyone has this book nearby can you comment on this
first few words and how the Blessed Guardian has incorporated the
concepts behind these words into the paragraph even though the
translation is not precisely the same.
Second: This is the first paragraph in the first Baha'i book that I ever
read. This first paragraph startled me, for one of his first injuncions
is to detach yourself from all that is on earth....*and* all that is in
heaven. I read it over and over again..."why be detached from all that
is in heaven?" I then began to realize that I was imposing my very
outdated Christian beliefs upon Baha'u'llah's Writings. We are enjoined
to search the truth not with hidden desires about the earth, nor with
hidden desires about heaven -- to perform a service strictly because it
will get me 'in' to heaven destroys the spirit of the service since all
is done for the sake of the love of God, not the love of self (even if
you are thinking ahead).
> Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that
> haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for
> you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations
> of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayan.
And again my ancient Christian beliefs were challenged when I found that
this noble station is that which is destined for us...not the idea of
original sin brought upon us by the first predecessors who decided to
grab the 'forbidden fruit' thus damning us all to hell.
Perhaps some of those people who have been talking about Christian
beliefs here on talisman could shed some more light on this topic?
My favorite Baha'i verse ends thus:
> ...unless and until he ceases to regard the
> words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for
> the true understanding and recognition of God and
> His Prophets.
Your devoted friend,
stephen johnson
From cybrmage@niia.netTue Oct 24 11:39:32 1995
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 22:32:59 +0000
From: Bud Polk
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Cause and Community/Why I prefer my own kind
Dear friends,
I have been a Baha'i for 25 years and I have had bipolar disorder for
27 years. My illness was only diagnosed five years ago and has
worsened during this period.
I find myself still attached to the Cause but distanced from the
Community. Regarding mental illness, I think the community is:
1. ignorant
2. prejudiced
3. patronizing
4. lacking in compassion
5. full of "happy" and empty platitudes
6. in denial
I cite a few examples by a Baha'i author by way of illustration:
"We live in an 'age of anxiety'. The loss of serious interest in
religion has deprived people of the help ministers, priests and
rabbis. About 35,000,000 Americans suffer from a crippling
depression. 38,000 psychiatrists -- 'secular priests' -- are
practicing their profession among us...."
"There is no doubt that if more people took their Bibles seriously
the psychiatrist would have fewer patients...Psychiatry tells us to
accept ourselves and religion tells how to do so...."
"These 'Divine counsellings' can heal anxiety, lift depression,
[yeah right] lighten frustration and answer many puzzling questions."
Divine Therapy, Annanarie Honnold, pp. 1-3
Hold on a minute while I pray away my severe depression and I'll wait
while "Divine counsellings" heal your diabetes or heart condition.
I'll stop taking my mood stabilizers, antidepressants and anitcyclers
(as some Baha'is have suggested). And you stop your hypertension
meds, your insulin or your anti-seizure meds.
The problem is rooted in the artificial Western mind/body duality.
Mental illness is not "mental" at all. Because we think it is
"mental," it should be boot-strapped, prayed or meditated away. I
am in a severe depression right now. My sleep and my eating
patterns are disturbed. My head aches, every muscle in body hurts
and I am short of breath. Mental illness is mind/body illness.
Mood disorders (bipolar and unipolar disorder) and schizophrenia,
the two most severe mental illnesses, are biochemical in nature and
probably have a genetic basis. Researchers are closing in on the
set of bipolar genes. But I am not a genetic-determinist -- there
must be environmental triggers as well.
Psychopharmacology offers the best hope for alleviating an episode
and preventing or reducing the severity of subsequent episodes.
Talk therapy -- and prayer, I believe -- only help heal the
intra-psychiatric issues left in the wake of the illness.
We suffer -- those with mental illness and the Community -- because
this things are not understood. I had a close Baha'i friend who
works at the national center. Once, in anguish and depression, I
called and left a voice message. There was no return call so my wife
Linda called and got through. The "friend" said, "Bud is strong, he
can deal with this." Never heard from my "good Baha'i friend" again.
You would be shocked to know who he is -- one of those super,
wonderful, spiritual, prominent Baha'is.
I used to serve on national task forces. During one consultation, I
was manic, rude and abrasive. I insulted an international figure in
the Faith (and apologized). I explained to the organizer of the
event and the other participants why I had done that. But no more
calls to service. If mental illness were understood, I would be
invited to participate and asked lovingly and frankly about my
current mood.
I am not the sort of person who pours the tea at firesides. I have
taught at Bosch, Louhelen, Green Lake and the House of Worship. I
organized the children's program at national events for years. And I
have written for the NSA, among other things.
If the Community no longer wants to make us of me, than I will take my
creativity and talents elsewhere. And that, friends, is why I say I
would rather be with my own kind.
None of what I have described occurs between those of us with mood
disorders. There is instant understanding and compassion. I am damn
tired of explaining all this to stupid, insensitive people -- Baha'is
included. And I have found Baha'is more hidebound in their attitudes
than the general public.
I belong to a mail list for bipolars, Pendulum, on the Internet. We
talk about every aspect of the illness, its treatment and we give
advice. Most of us know more about the illness than our pshrinks. I
get about 100 posts a day. When I am having trouble -- as now -- I
turn to them, not to the Baha'i Community.
We also have a secret
channel on the undernet -- secret to keep out the surfers and
smutsters. By the way I was on #bahai on the effnet, tried to talk
about my problem and was ignored. So I don't go to the Community or
Baha'is on the 'net. I go to my own kind.
At this stage of my life, I would rather run into a bipolar than a
Baha'i -- we have more in common. But I remain attached to our
beloved Cause.
I will post a list of homepages, newsgroups, and channels that
educate about and deal with mental illness at a later date.
Warm regards,
Bud Polk
From ahmada@acsusun.acsu.unsw.edu.auTue Oct 24 12:20:41 1995
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 15:17:07 +1000
From: Ahmad Aniss
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: creation
Dear Talismanians,
I would like to see the following quote being discussed on Talisman
I like to know what all others think this paragraph means.
What or who is the "active force" and what and who is the "recipient".
With Baha'i Love and fellowship,
Ahmad.
[the quote]
TABLETS OF BAHA'U'LLAH REVEALED AFTER THE KITAB-I-AQDAS
(U.S., 1988 pocket-size ed.)
LAWH-I-HIKMAT
(Tablet of Wisdom)
page 140
"...............
That which hath been in existence had existed before,
but not in the form thou seest today. The world of existence
came into being through the heat generated from the
interaction between the active force and that which is its
recipient. These two are the same, yet they are different.
Thus doth the Great Announcement inform thee about this
glorious structure. Such as communicate the generating
influence and such as receive its impact are indeed created
through the irresistible Word of God which is the Cause
of the entire creation, while all else besides His Word are
but the creatures and the effects thereof. Verily thy Lord is
the Expounder, the All-Wise.
..............."
_______________________________________________________________________
^ ^
^ Dr. A.M. Aniss,
From LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.eduTue Oct 24 12:25:37 1995
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 10:07:15 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
To: jrcole@umich.edu
Subject: RE: wired world government
Juan, BTW, JOhn just called me to tell me the contents of the letter from the
UHJ which had been faxed to him. The UHJ wrote several pages deploring the
"philosophical underpinnings" of the Encyclopedia. John is resigning from the
Board and reclaiming his articles. I am sure he will write more but thought
you would want this info. What a waste! What tyrants they have become. I am
afraid that it is going to be difficult for me to remain on Talisman and deal
with those who love the institutions so much. Linda
From Peter_Tamas@bcon.comTue Oct 24 12:27:42 1995
Date: 20 Oct 1995 04:46:07 GMT
From: Peter Tamas
To: lua@sover.net
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Power
Taking this thread on a bit of a tangent...I think that you may be able to
give me a few pointers.
The short version of what I am after some theory which abstracts from the
base relationship of that between a mother and her child in its attempts to
explain social or political phenomena. This atom stands in opposition to
that of liberal theory which works from the relationship between rational and
reasonable atomistic individuals, Confucious which develops on the basis of
the relationship between the gentleman and his mature son in the presence of
Heaven as embodied by the Emporer and Harrison White's abstraction from
pecking orders in fowl and primate society.
I am scratching this itch for two reasons:
1. I want to write a nice tight little paper for my political economy class.
2. I suspect that a good part of our current apparent difficulties
understanding the nature of our administrative order derives from a grammar
born of atomistic individualism and its attendent tendancy to 'power over'.
I want to contribute to the development of an alternative grammar. One that
does not ineviatably lead to the difficulty with understanding the nature of
an institution as distinct from the members who have the opportunity to
engage and cannalize its energy (bad paraphrase....apologies)
Just wondering if you have any sources to point me to. I suspect they would
be things like beyond power or, hopefully, more feminist attempts to describe
the nature of relationships in a manner amenable to extension to appropriate
description of our administrative system.
take care
peter
From jrcole@umich.eduTue Oct 24 12:35:48 1995
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:20:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Ahmad Aniss
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: creation
With regard to the passage in the Tablet of Wisdom, this is discussed
briefly in the following Encyclopaedia article which I am posting because
it will never otherwise see the light of day:
cheers, Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
Encyclopaedia of the Baha'i Faith
eds. John Walbridge and Moojan Momen.
Lawh-i Hikmat (The Tablet of Wisdom).
The Tablet of Wisdom was revealed by Baha'u'llah for the
Baha'i philosopher Aqa Muhammad "Nabil-i Akbar" Qa'ini when the
latter came to visit him in `Akka sometime in 1873 or 1874 (1290
A.H.). Baha'u'llah recalls in the course of this Tablet their earlier
meeting, around 1859, at the house of `Abdu'l-Majid Shirazi in
Kazimayn, Iraq, at which time Baha'u'llah had expounded Greco-
Islamic philosophy. It was upon listening to such discourses that
Nabil-i Akbar (who had the best seminary training the Shi`ite world
could offer at that time) had given his allegiance to Baha'u'llah, though
he had earlier been devoted to Subh-i Azal. Baha'u'llah's willingness to
engage philosophy in the tradition of Plato, Aristotle and Plotinus, as it
was elaborated in Muslim culture by Avicenna (d. 1037), Suhravardi
(d. 1191) and Mulla Sadra (d. 1641) among others, marked a major
departure for Babi religious culture. The Bab had earlier discouraged
the study of metaphysics and other scholastic disciplines, but
Baha'u'llah made a place for philosophy in the Baha'i Faith.
The Tablet of Wisdom, which could also be translated as "The
Tablet of Philosophy," begins with ethical exhortations directed at the
people of the world. Ethics, politics and household management were
considered in Aristotelian thought branches of "practical philosophy."
That he begins with praise of down-to-earth virtues such as diligence,
generosity and service to humankind suggests that he saw "practical
philosophy" as having primacy over more theoretical branches of the
discipline.
Next, he addresses a question posed to him by Nabil-i Akbar,
about the beginning of creation. The ancient Greeks believed that the
universe has always existed, a doctrine that seems to clash with the
biblical and qur'anic idea of the world having been created by God at a
particular point in time (perhaps as recently as 6,000 years ago if one
takes the Bible literally). The great Muslim mystic and clergyman
Abu Hamid al-Ghazali (d. A.D. 1111) had, in his Incoherence of the
Philosophers, energetically attacked the idea of the pre-existence of
the cosmos, while the master philosopher Averroes (d. 1198) had in
his The Incoherence of the Incoherence replied with a spirited defense
of Aristotle. The followers of Aristotle in Iran, mostly Avicennians
known as peripatetics, continued to believe in the eternality of the
world. Nabil-i Akbar was eager to have Baha'u'llah resolve this
controversy.
Baha'u'llah in reply says the both the eternality of the world and
the creation of the world are valid ways of talking, each in its own
way, about the God-world relationship. He affirms the standard
Avicennian position, that the universe has always existed. "Wert thou
to assert that it hath ever existed and shall continue to exist, it would
be true" (Lawh-i Hikmat, Eng. tr., p. 140). But he says that the world
is nevertheless originated by the creative power of God. That is, the
world is created, but it has always been being created and so has never
been non-existent. Creation is not a unique divine act that occurs
once, at a particular point of time, establishing a historical dividing-line
between nonbeing and being. It is rather a continuous divine activity.
Yet he also affirms the validity of speaking as though the pre-
existent God created the contingent world out of nothing. This way of
talking, he says, is a metaphor. In Greco-Islamic philosophy, God's
Being is Necessary and must by its nature exist, so that He is
essentially pre-existent (qadim). The world need not have come into
being, existing not because it must, but because of God's creative Will.
It is therefore dependent or contingent (mumkin) and its essence is
originated (muhdath) (Rahman, "The Eternity of the World," pp. 222-
237). When the scriptures or hadiths refer to God as having been
alone "before" the creation, then, they are actually pointing to the
difference in his metaphysical level from that of the originated world.
His primacy is essential, not sequential. It is also valid, then, to speak
of the contingent universe having always existed alongside the deity,
since God's "Firstness" is not really a "firstness" of time but rather of
essence (Lawh-i Hikmat, Eng. tr., p. 140).
To explain the dependence of complex matter on simpler
building blocks, Baha'u'llah employs the formulation of Avicenna
(Shifa', ed. Madkur, 7:147-59), which is in turn based on the schema
put forward by Aristotle in his De generatione et corruptione. Ancient
Greek thought identified the basic qualities out of which the universe
was formed as moistness, dryness, heat and cold. Avicenna considered
the tangible qualities of heat and cold to be "agents (Ar. sing. fa'il)," or
active forces. He believed moist and dry to be "patients" or passive
(Ar. munfa'il). The mixture of an agent and a patient in turn produced
each of the four basic elements. That is, moistness and cold combined
to form water, whereas dryness and heat made fire. This is the
meaning of the phrase, "The world of existence came into being
through the heat generated from the interaction between the active
force and that which is its recipient" (Lawh-i Hikmat, Eng., p. 140).
In this way, from the combination of these attributes, the four elements
of earth, air, fire and water came into being. Since the underlying
qualities are indestructible, and they part and recombine, the processes
of generation and disintegration are continuous and eternal. This
Aristotelian physics was dominant in Islamic science, and became so in
Western thought, in the medieval period, and continued to be held in
Iran by most thinkers until the twentieth century. Baha'u'llah in using
it was simply employing the terms that would be understood by his
immediate audience, Nabil-i Akbar and other traditionally-trained
Muslim philosophers.
Baha'u'llah then expatiates on his Logos theology, which holds
that the origins and development of the universe ultimately depend not
merely on natural forces, but upon the active Word of God (kalimat
Allah) (Cole, "Concept of Manifestation," pp. 8-9). Nature itself, he
says, is a reflection of the will of God. He makes it clear that his
advocacy of a theology of science, wherein delving into nature
represents an exploration of the divine will, is intended to counteract
the influence of eighteenth- and nineteenth-century European
materialism and positivism (Lawh-i Hikmat, pp. 141-144).
Baha'u'llah points out that modern European thought owes a
great deal to the philosophical tradition of classical Greece. He goes
on to quote verbatim from medieval Muslim writers such as Abu'l-Fath
Shahrastani and `Imadu'd-Din Abu'l-Fida in praise of Empedocles,
Pythagoras, Hippocrates, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. He further
discusses Apollonius of Tyana (Ar. Balinus, b. 4 B.C.), and speaks of
the Hermetic corpus (a group of anonymous, esoteric Greek writings
produced in the centuries immediately after Christ and incorrectly
attributed to Hermes of ancient Egypt; see Affifi, "Influence," pp. 840-
855).
The medieval Muslim biographers of the Greek philosophers
quoted in this Tablet stress two important themes. First, the Greek
philosophers tended to believe in the divine, and most were not
materialists. This is true enough, though neither were all these Greeks
Muslim-style monotheists, as Shahrastani and Abu'l-Fida tended to
paint them. Second, they maintain that Pythagoras was influenced by
Hebrew prophetic wisdom, and that other philosophers also "acquired
their knowledge from the Prophets." (Lawh-i Hikmat, Eng., pp. 144-
145). The latter belief was held in Europe, as well, among thinkers
such as St. Augustine and the Cambridge Platonists, but no historical
evidence exists for it. These Muslim sources placed Empedocles in
the time of David and Pythagoras in the time of Solomon, a
chronology typical of Greco-Islamic works but which is mistaken
(Cole, "Problems of Chronology," pp. 32-38). Here, as throughout
this Tablet, Baha'u'llah quotes or presents information from the
standard Middle Eastern reference works considered authoritative at
the time among thinkers such as Nabil-i Akbar (`Abdu'l-Baha/Ethel
Rosenberg, 1906, in A. Ishraq-Khavari, Ma'idih, 2:69).
Baha'u'llah maintains that the philosophers of antiquity were
not solely concerned with abstract thought, but were often imbued
with a spirit of experiment. The sources he quotes say that Aristotle
first suggested the power latent in steam, and a Greek figure whose
name the Arabic sources transliterate as Murtas or Muristus (Gr.
Ameristos?) was said by Abu'l-Fida to have "invented an apparatus
which transmitted sound over a distance of sixty miles" (Lawh-i
Hikmat, Eng., p. 150). In quoting Abu'l-Fida on this figure,
Baha'u'llah is arguing that the philosophical and scientific advances of
the European Enlightenment and nineteenth century are not unique;
that they have parallels on a smaller scale in past world civilizations;
and that in the other instances such civilizational progress was not
associated with atheism or materialism (and so need not be now).
Baha'u'llah's forthright championing of figures such as
Socrates, and his favorable view of modern science, was remarkable in
a nineteenth-century figure from a Muslim background who had not
studied in European or European-style schools. Many Muslim
clergymen of the time rejected either Greek philosophy or modern
Western science, or both. Baha'u'llah's "Tablet of Wisdom" raises
some of the same issues as similar essays by reformers such as the
Iranian Sayyid Jamalu'd-Din al-Afghani (d. 1897) and the Egyptian
Rifa`ah at-Tahtawi (d. 1873). This Tablet strongly affirms of the value
of philosophy and modern science while insisting on the continued
validity of religious beliefs.
Bibliography: The Tablet of Wisdom in English translation may be
found in Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah Revealed after the Kitab-i-
Aqdas, trans. Habib Taherzadeh et al. (Haifa: Baha'i World Centre,
2nd edn. 1988), pp. 137-152; the Arabic text may be found in the
companion volume, Majmu`ih`i az Alvah-i Jamal-i Aqdas-i Abha kih
ba`d az Kitab-i Aqdas nazil shudih (Hofheim-Langenhain: Baha'i
Verlag, 1980); Abdu'l-Baha's Tablet on the dates for the philosophers
in the Tablet of Wisdom is in Ma'idih-'i Asmani, ed. A. Ishraq-Khavari,
2 vols. - (New Delhi: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 1984), 2:68-71 (new
pagination). For its cultural context, see: A.E. Affifi, "The Influence
of Hermetic Literature in Muslim Thought," BSOAS xiii (1950):840-
55; Aristotle, Aristotle's De generatione et corruptione (Oxford:
Clarendon Press, 1982); Avicenna, ash-Shifa', ed. Ibrahim Madkur et
al., 7 vols. (Cairo: Dar al-Kitab al-`Arabi, 1984); J. Cole, "The
Concept of Manifestation in the Baha'i Writings," Baha'i Studies 9
(1982):1-38; J. Cole, "Problems of Chronology in Baha'u'llah's Tablet
of Wisdom," World Order vol. 13, no. 3 (1979):24-39; Fazlur
Rahman, "The Eternity of the World and the Heavenly bodies in Post-
Avicennian Philosophy," Essays in Islamic Philosophy and Science, ed.
G.F. Hourani (Albany, NY: SUNY Press, 1975), pp. 222-237; Franz
Rosenthal, The Classical Heritage in Islam (London: Routledge,
1992); Franz Rosenthal, Greek Philosophy in the Arab World
(London: Variorum, 1990); Richard Walzer, Greek into Arabic
(Oxford: Bruno Cassirer, 1962); Frances Yates, Giordano Bruno and
the Hermetic Tradition (New York: Vintage, 1969). For Muslim
views of the Greek philosophers mentioned in this tablet, the articles in
the Encyclopaedia of Islam, 2nd edn., written in English but given
under the philosophers' Arabic names, are essential: R. Walzer,
"Aflatun;" R. Walzer, "Aristutalis;" S.M. Stern, "Anbaduklis;" M.
Plessner, "Balinus;" A. Dietrich, "Buqrat;" F. Rosenthal,
"Fithaghuras;" M. Plessner, "Hirmis."
Juan R.I. Cole
From caryer@microsoft.comTue Oct 24 12:40:32 1995
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 08:16:27 -0700
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: Men Cry (Cary's bio at last)
I feel moved to publish my bio on Talisman. When I first logged on here, I did
a standard Who Am I that listed my professional background and a few minor
points. That was an accurate description of me but it wasn't the part of me
that matters much. I'm not a scholar in the Faith. I'm just a writer and
artist, computer techie, a Microserf (see email address). The recent
discussions on gender on Talisman were a powerful influence on me to say more
about myself. I found powerful confirmations that reinforced and strengthened
me, and finally, because of what I read here and was moved to explore further,
I did a momentous thing. A life-affirming and life-changing thing. A
life-saving thing. I thank you, Talisman, from my heart and soul. I give humble
thanks to Baha'u'llah for knowing you all and for what I have learned.
Please allow me to share this and to thank you from my heart for freeing my
soul from a life of secrecy, fear and despair. The letter that I'm appending to
this message went out on email at my workplace to over 600 people on three
email aliases. Two of them are dedicated to parenting issues, Single Parents At
Microsoft (cool acronym), and Parents of Teens (email name: MS-Angst!). Within
a few hours I received over 60 responses and many, many phone calls and office
visits. Every single person was compassionate and deeply supportive. I compiled
their responses and will send them to anyone on this list who'd like to see
them--offline--to save bandwidth. It's a long compilation!
I found out the impact that I have on people. I had never known it or thought
about it before. It made me so proud to work at Microsoft. The evening that my
letter describes is one that I shall never forget. I shall place it in my heart
with those like the following: the night that a Baha'i read the Fire Tablet at
a fireside for a few new seekers and as he finished the nearby hills literally
burst into flames inspiring two instant declarations(!); the day my first child
departed for the Abha Kingdom at age three and I saw 'Abdu'l-Baha enter his
hospital room, gather up his tiny body and take him home; the morning that I
entered the Shrine of Baha'u'llah and prayed there for Him to send me beautiful
children one day, smart, healthy, and Baha'i; the day I heard the message and
declared a few hours later; and yesterday, the day I became free at last.
Thank you for letting me share. Thank you for enlightening me and teaching me.
Thank you from my deepest and most loving heart. The email was titled "Men
Cry." Here is the full text of the letter including the original sigs:
=============
Men Cry
Sometimes we come to a crossroads in our lives and we know we have to turn. I
don't want to sound trite or maudlin but we know at that point that the turn is
frightening, the end unsure and the road not well-traveled. But we must turn.
We can't go on the same way any longer. The old way is living death and the
turn is life restored.
I turned barely a week ago in order to recover the rest of my life. I've raised
two great kids by myself for most of their lives. One has flown the nest and
gone off to college to study engineering. The other, who now wants to be a
novelist, will fly in two years. Both of my boys make me proud and happy. The
other day, I had a long talk with my younger son, Ben, that made me so proud
that I decided to share it no matter what the consequences to me. As God/dess
is good and we are all intelligent and open-minded, I will hope that I don't
lose any of my friends because of what I'm recounting now.
I'm only going to summarize here because the personal details and the long
history are just family matters. I told Ben that I'm a Transsexual. That means
that all my life I was never at home in my body. It means that my soul, my
heart, didn't match the gender in which I was raised and socialized. It meant
three failed marriages, years of clinical depression, thoughts of suicide and
more. I assured him that I wasn't gay which was important to him to know. I
explained how current research points to probable genetic causes of the
condition, how it's life-long and cannot be cured, "fixed" by psychotherapy, or
suppressed by medication. Inevitably a person with such a condition either
seeks hormone therapy and surgical remedies, lives a miserable dysfunctional
life or commits suicide, the most common outcome. A little over a month ago,
inspired by the courageous example of a colleague at work in a similar
condition--same diagnosis, single parent, Microserf, and more--I took steps to
change my life. I started therapy and took the turn down the other road, the
unknown one, the unsafe one. To me, it's the only road I can take. I can't trod
the other road any more.
I knew that I'd have to tell my sons. I had dropped some hints to test their
limits. It was clear that the one in college might not be ready yet. The other
night I told Ben the entire story. We talked for over four hours and then I
went to bed, exhausted, my brain fried, emotionally drained and concluded the
happiest day of my life. Ben is 16 years old. He's a great kid, tolerant,
intelligent, God-loving, witty and creative. He's also like most 16 year old
boys, in and out of love with various girls, plays loud music, throws his dirty
clothes on the floor, hopelessly untidy, subject to bouts of teen angst. He's
pretty normal for a modern kid in other words. But you just don't expect a
normal young person to understand or accept such a revelation about his dad.
Dad drives a big 4x4. He has a pair of season tickets to the Mariners. Dad
doesn't date though. He doesn't go out much at all, takes heavy medication for
depression, and doesn't sleep more than three or four hours a night because of
nightmares. Ben always wondered why. Neither of the kids could get me to talk
about myself.
Ben told me that he understood. He wanted me to be happy. He wanted whatever I
wanted and decided to do to make me happy. He loved me no matter what I did. He
cared. And he did understand. He understood me deeper than any adult ever has.
He knew that I couldn't get free of this condition and I had to do something
about it. He reminded me of all the time we spent together. The times I left
work to take home a sick child. The years I coached his soccer team. The places
I took him and his brother. The wonderful baseball games where we sat by the
bullpen and watched Randy Johnson warm-up. The trips we took. The times we
talked. How I was so supportive when he broke up with his girlfriend. And he
wanted me to be happy no matter what it took. And he affirmed me as a parent
and as a human being and as a Father and a Mother. He didn't need to
understand. He only wanted to help. He said if his friends might reject him at
some future time if they found out that he'd find truer friends. He hugged me
and he smiled. And I, a guy outside, a woman inside, cried and hugged him.
Sometimes that's all we can do. Sometimes guys cry even when people can see
them do it.
He even said that he knew why I waited so long to do anything about my
condition. He knew it was for the sake of himself and his brother. He knew that
I wanted to let his mother finish med school and take her own path although it
was away from us. He accepted my life and affirmed it. I've never been prouder
or happier. He asked if I would lose my job because of this. I told him how I
had already told my HR representative and how supportive and accepting that he
was. The company hires our brains, our commitment and our performance, he told
me and that's all they're concerned about. I am so proud to work here.
My next huge step will be on Thanksgiving when my other son, Nick, comes home
for the holiday. I'll tell him then. First I'll pray for strength and I know it
will go well. Thanks for letting me share what a blessing I have been given in
the person of my wonderful teenage children.
Cary
==============================================
"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood!"
(--Nina Simone; The Animals; Joe Cocker; others)
==============================================
"The quest for certainty blocks the search for meaning. Uncertainty is
the very condition to impel man to unfold his powers." -Erich Fromm
==============================================
"Remember how they taught you, how much of it was fear.
Refuse to hand it down. The legacy stops here." - Melissa Etheridge
==============================================
"In the garden of thy heart plant naught but the rose of love" - Baha'u'llah
From burlb@bmi.netWed Oct 25 00:13:57 1995
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 95 10:05 PDT
From: Burl Barer
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: bio (again)
Ok -- here is a basic bio repost from Burl Barer. -- My life was cut short
on my previous transmission (Wow! Does that sound *Eastern* or what?)
I was born in a cross-fire hurricane in a house in the driving rain...ooops,
I mean, I was born and still live in Walla Walla, Washington. Population
approx. 30,000 not counting those locked up in the State Penitentiary for
being Hispanic without a license or for excess melanin possession. The big
campaign around here is to garner suport for the new children's prison. We
need to send a strong message to our kids that youth will not go unpunished.
If we can't send 'em to war, we can sure as hell send em to jail.
I am 48 but look much younger :-) and still think of myself as a youth --
hence I am always afraid of being arrested for impersonating an adult.
Became a Baha'i in Seattle in February of 1970 after intensive investigation
-- not of the faith, but intensive investigation of how all that paisly gets
into the air and why it moves in time to the music. #-)
My "profession" is being an author and "media person." I write books on
worldly topics such as show-business, pop culture, mystery/adventure, and
true crime. You are invited to order my current book from a bookstore near
you [Derek has several copies of my latest masterpiece for sale].
I have no degrees, sad to say, although I once tried to get a mail-order
Masters Degree in Metaphysics but ran out of money before I hit the crown
chakra. . Britt Barer (beloved spouse) is the educated/educator in the
family. She teaches alternative eduation at WWCC. We have two kids: Anea
Bergen Barer (17) who goes to Whitman College, Jordan Reed-Rabani Barer (13)
I am a rock n roller at heart -- listen to Bob Dylan & Mott the Hoople and
am a former rock n roll DJ in the Seattle radio market -- a living legend in
my own mind and a wellknown has-been.
From Dave10018@aol.comWed Oct 25 00:14:52 1995
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 13:24:28 -0400
From: Dave10018@aol.com
To: osborndo@pilot.msu.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Women & UHJ: Reframing the Question
In a message dated 95-10-23 17:27:00 EDT, osborndo@pilot.msu.edu (Donald
Zhang Osborn) writes:
>By "only symbolic" I did not mean "merely symbolic," rather
>"symbolic only (and not anything else)." You stated that the
>reason for not having women on the House of Justice is "not
>practical," and my main point was that as far as this servant has
>been able to figure, such a conclusion was not yet justified.
>
I presented reasoning leading to my conclusion in my post on the subject.
Briefly, such "practical" reasoning as you suggest leads to the suggestion
that all-male consultative bodies must be superior in some practical terms.
You cannot, by definition, design a research project that would show some
reason why only the Universal House of Justice should be all-male. What would
you use as a control group? To see this as a practical matter means to see it
as a symbolic statement about men and women which contradicts our belief in
women's rights and capacity as well as many explicit statements in the
writings. To say that the House must be all-male because of some practical
need owing to some unique factor of the House's deliberations is a kind of
mystical statement which does --not-- follow logically from the House's
authority and in fact contradicts Shoghi Effendi's descriptions of the duties
of the members of the House, which emphasize the same qualities of detachment
and rational processes as required of members of other Baha'i administrative
bodies. This kind of mystical assertion, of which Ahmad's "seed of creation"
statement is another example, comes down to saying that the House must be
male in order to follow a magic formula for revelation! If that is the case
why couldn't the formula be different and what does it mean? To insist on a"
practical reason" really implies that there must be a meaning for the
all-male rule which limits the role of women or, at least, of women and men
together, which runs counter to the teachings of the faith. Such a "practical
reason" does in fact function as a symbolic statement of a most disagreeable
kind! My modest proposal is to consider the symbolic statement of the male
House as not referring to relations of women and men at all! That the rule
does not derive from what you call practical considerations, but has symbolic
derivation and purpose is a proposition I find both logical and in harmony
with my understanding of the harmony of science and religion as well as my
understanding of the development of symbolism in the last 5000or so years of
religious history, especially the patriarchal monotheism of the Middle East
which is the heritage of the Western world as well as the heritage of Islam.
In this context the rule can be understood without reference to magic but
with reference to the idea of progressive revelation and historic continuity
and as well the idea that not everything in the faith is derivative of
practical common sense, because the Revelation is the Representation of the
Divine to humanity. And the question of representation is one of iconography
having nothing to do with how women and men work together, requiring us to
accept practical disadvantages for the sake of ancient symbolism.The kind of
symbolism which misreads the rule as a statement about men and women is
precisely what has led to such symbolism being used to justify the oppression
of women in the past, and efforts by Baha'is to provide a "practical" reason
for the all-male House have taken the form of all manner of speculation about
what amounts to ideas of limitations on women and women and men in
interaction which cannot be justified by anything in the Writings or practice
of the Faith, praise be to God. In order to make real for ourselves the
concept of the equality of men and women we must be able, since we cannot do
away with patriarchal symbols, understand them abstractly, as referring to
the nature of the Godhead. Here in the US Christian men("promise keepers")
as well as Mr. Farrakhan with his million men(Muslims, not to be confused
with Moslems) are trying to revive male participation in the sacred circle of
life by priviledging every man in marriage as patriarch of his home, ruling
his wife. Seeing the patriarchal symbolism in the Faith as upholding God
Alone as Ruler, as King, is an advance in abstract conceptualization and
justice which demands that men as much as women submit to the will of God.
Why retain patriarchal symbolism at all? For reasons of history and heritage
and so that we may finally get it right, as referring to God not to men. As
human thought evolves we disentangle symbolism referring to the divine from
the practical sphere of human behaviour. This can have salutary practical
effects.
I hope this finds you warm and cheery,
david taylor
From burlb@bmi.netWed Oct 25 00:19:05 1995
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 95 10:34 PDT
From: Burl Barer
To: cybrmage@niia.net
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Cause and Community/Why I prefer my own kind
>
>We suffer -- those with mental illness and the Community -- because
>this things are not understood.
True. And. Understanding (does anyone completely understand these
disorders?) does *not* mean being held hostage or emotionally blackmailed by
someone simply because they have a medical problem that manifests itself in
inappropriate behaviour. In my little community we have had a
disporportionate number of schizophrenics, paranoids, bipolars, and front
temporal lobe epileptics all suffering symptoms at the same time, plus our
MBR (minimum Baha'i requirement) of drug addicts and alcoholics.. We have
had to learn a lot, be compassionate, understanding, tolerant and practical.
If you have a believer who stands in the street screaming about eating
flesh, you don't elect them Chairman of the LSA to give them a better sense
of being a Baha'i. You don't allow them to dominate consultation at feast
with rambling diatribes and insults..
Bud, discerning the unity of all things said, :
I say I would rather be with my own kind.
>
I go to my own kind.
>
>I would rather run into a bipolar than a Baha'i.
I am a Baha'i. I was once diagnosed as bipolar. I was once diagnosed as
having genetic depression. I was once diagnosed as suffering from an anxiety
disorder. I was once put on anti-depressents, anti-anxiety drugs, the works.
But, gee. I am not diagnosed bipolar anymore. I am no longer diagnosed as
having genetic depression. I am no longer full of anxiety. I may be an
peculiar case, but I just got fed up with being a different disorder
depending on the doctor and having my body be a pharmacological storehouse
and testing ground for the latest tricyclic. I finally decided that, for
me, "bipolar" was a sexual preference reference to those big white bears :-)
Perhaps I was misdiagnosed in the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth
places.
Perhaps there was something in my toothpaste to which I was allergic that
caused the symptoms? Who knows. The community was tolerant but wise.
As for your own kind, Bud...this kind be humankind. Some have allergies,
some have illness, we all have a cross to bear - polar or grizzly -- or
bare, or Barer.
From 72110.2126@compuserve.comWed Oct 25 00:28:17 1995
Date: 24 Oct 95 15:56:44 EDT
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Heroes and Heroines
Dear Carmen and everyone else, too,
Thanks for your wonderfully penetrating question about whether or not I
found, in my research for my forthcoming(from Oneworld, distributed by
Penguin, btw) book The Seeker's Path, any information about differences
between the way males and females approach the spiritual quest.
The short answer? No. None.
In fact, in my reading of world myth, which attempted to span a widely
representative and geographically diverse set of cultures, I found just
the opposite. Much of ancient, pre-literate mythology focuses on
feminine heroes.
I decided not to use the word "heroine" in my work -- a diminutive if I
ever heard one -- because of the source of the word "hero" itself. Hero
was a minor Greek goddess, a priestess of Aphrodite, who pursued a life-
long quest for spiritual awareness. Ironic, no?
While "heroines" in much of Western fairy tale lore, which seems to me just
corrupted mythological truth, often appeared as passive and receptive,
the female heroes of most original myth were active, resourceful, smart
and creative. They often bested their male adversaries. For this reason,
I used many female-centered myths in The Seeker's Path.
The one book I recommend for Baha'is and others on this important and to
this date under-researched topic is Rianne Eisler's The Chalice and the
Blade, which carefully tracks the ancient societies with female/male
balance in their mythology and therefore their social structures.
Love,
David
From cybrmage@niia.netWed Oct 25 00:34:01 1995
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 03:33:28 +0000
From: Bud Polk
To: Burl Barer
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Burl Barer, Baha'is and Mental Ilness
On 24 Oct 95 at 10:34, Burl Barer wrote (snips):
Dear Burl:
> Understanding (does anyone completely understand these disorders?)
> does *not* mean being held hostage or emotionally blackmailed by
> someone simply because they have a medical problem that manifests
> itself in inappropriate behaviour.
I don't recall suggesting any such thing. And most of us -- the vast
majority of us -- who have a mental illness don't emotionally
blackmail or hold others hostage. This is yet another stereotype
about mental illness.
> If you have a believer who stands in the street screaming about
> eating flesh, you don't elect them Chairman of the LSA to give them
> a better sense of being a Baha'i.
I found that remark mildly amusing at first Then I remembered I don't
care for jokes about race or gender either.
> I am a Baha'i. I was once diagnosed as bipolar. I was once
> diagnosed as having genetic depression. I was once diagnosed as
> suffering from an anxiety disorder. I was once put on
> anti-depressents, anti-anxiety drugs, the works. But, gee. I am
> not diagnosed bipolar anymore. I am no longer diagnosed as having
> genetic depression. I am no longer full of anxiety. I may be an
> peculiar case, but I just got fed up with being a different
> disorder depending on the doctor and having my body be a
> pharmacological storehouse and testing ground for the latest
> tricyclic.
Mood disorders -- manic-depression and major depression -- don't
just go away because a person "gets fed up." They are lifetime
illnesses. And they are very difficult to diagnose -- I spent 22
years with six psychiatrists before getting a correct diagnosis.
And I still do not have an optimal mix of medication.
> I finally decided that, for me, "bipolar" was a sexual preference
> reference to those big white bears :-) Perhaps I was misdiagnosed
> in the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth places. Perhaps
> there was something in my toothpaste to which I was allergic that
> caused the symptoms? Who knows.
That trivializes my pain, the pain of many others and what Shogi
Effendi called "a terrible burden to bear."
>As for your own kind, Bud...this kind be humankind.
Burl, I stand by what I said in my original post: My kind are those
with mood disorders or their family members. I have reached an age
where I do not suffer fools lightly -- inside or