From Member1700@aol.comFri Oct 20 15:40:36 1995
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 14:31:33 -0400
From: Member1700@aol.com
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Cause and Community

Dearest Bev:  
   The story of your sons moved me deeply.  I do understand your concerns and
your choices.  However, I would say that the insensitivity and abuse which
your sons experienced stems directly from exalting the "Cause" over the
people in it.  To often, in the name of the Cause we are willing to do damage
to individuals who make up the community.  

Tony

From PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.eduFri Oct 20 15:41:12 1995
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:38:55 PST8PDT
From: "Eric D. Pierce" 
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Women & UHJ: Reframing the Question (hanging upside down?)

Hi,

re:
> Subject:        Women & UHJ: Reframing the Question
> To:             Dave10018@aol.com
> Date sent:      Fri, 20 Oct 1995 13:49:08 -0400 (EDT)
> From:           "Donald Zhang Osborn" 
> Copies to:      Talisman@Indiana.edu

> Allah'u'abha!
> Thank you Dave for your thoughtful consideration of the issue of
> why women are not allowed to serve on the Universal House of
> Justice (UHJ).  I would like to suggest, however, that your
> conclusion that "the reason for the exclusion of women from serving
> as members of the House is not practical" is premature, and that
> there are practical issues relating to the gender composition of
> the UHJ that have not yet (to my knowledge) received much attention.
...snip

I've always visualized them as wise grandfatherly/uncle types, 
so it never occured to me that maybe I should think of the UHJ as 
"Ubiquitously Horny Jurisprudents"! :)

(sorry, its friday)
EP

ps, I know "jurisprudent" is not a real word (right?)




From richs@microsoft.comFri Oct 20 15:44:01 1995
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:13:12 -0700
From: Rick Schaut 
To: "talisman@indiana.edu" ,
    "'TLCULHANE@aol.com'" 
Subject: RE: justice and Bahai courts 

Dear Terry and Friends,

First, regarding the way our perceptions affect reality, I think
it can be understood on several different levels.  Certainly,
our perceptions affect the way we behave, and it is our
behavior which constitutes the reflection of the Divine Reality
in the phenomenal world.  But we should always remember
that the reflection is not the reality.  The sun in the mirror is
not the sun itself (even though we may have no practical or
emperical way of distinguishing between the two).

I think the opening paragraphs of the Kitab-i-Iqan are the
most telling.  Until we cease to regard human standards as
the means of measuring the Revelation, we will never attain
the shores of certitude.  This requires that we constantly
question the validity of our own perceptions and strive to
obtain a deeper understanding of that Reality we were
created to reflect.

Which leads me to the following remarks.  I've trimed them
perhaps excessively in the interests of saving bandwitdh,
but I don't believe I've done them harm in doing so.

From: 	TLCULHANE@aol.com[SMTP:TLCULHANE@aol.com]
>Administration is a means to an end
>and that end is unity. It wil always be up to us imperfect beings to
>implement justice through a set of divinely ordained institutions.we will in
>all liklihood do it imperfectly in this world .

The _structure_ of the Administrative Order, however, has been Divinely
ordained.  The question seems to be whether or not focusing on changes
to this structure constitute appropriate efforts to achieve the end that this
Divinely ordained structure is designed to achieve.  Do these structural
changes really improve the system's ability to achieve the end it is
designed to achieve?

Yes, it will always be up to us imperfect beings to implement justice, and
the implementation will never be perfect.  If we persist in measuring the
value of the system in terms of the present state of the system, we will
allways be dissatisfied with the results.  Rather, we need to strive to
perceive the _processes_ involved.  What are the dynamics of the system?
Is the system progressing towards a more perfect reflection of the Divine
reality or is it moving away from that goal?  If we propose a structural
change, does the change make the system progress faster, slower or
does the change have no effect at all on the progress of the system?

These are the questions we need to answer, here, and they, quite simply,
haven't been addressed.  To fail to answer these questions is to do
precisely what we have been cautioned against doing: making administration
an end in itself.


Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut



From PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.eduFri Oct 20 16:00:54 1995
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 12:31:31 PST8PDT
From: "Eric D. Pierce" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: BioBank data - repost

This a voluntary project, does not include all talisman 
participants. The form will be included in another posting
in a few minutes.
EP (PierceED@csus.edu)
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

Date sent:      Fri, 22 Sep 1995 00:39:29 -0700
To:             talisman@indiana.edu
From:           Safa Sadeghpour 
Subject:        BioBank data

Phone numbers and Mailing Addresses have been removed due to security
considerations.
If you need this information please contact the individual directly by using
email.

Dearly,

Safa

PS: Please let me know of any errors, deficiencies, or other problems
related with
the BioBank data.
************************************************************


Name: Mark Foster
Handle(s) (on online services): Realityman (America Online and AT&T 
Interchange) and RealityDude (Microsoft Interchange) 
Email address: Internet: mfoster@tyrell.net (primary Internet 
address); CompuServe: 72642,3105; Prodigy: UWMG94A; America Online: 
Realityman; Interchange: Realityman; Microsoft Network: RealityDude
Http home page (if any): None
Gender: Male
Country/State and City: Olathe, Kansas (U.S.A.)
Short list of interests (for short list): (See long list)
Post-secondary education: Ph.D., Sociology, Mississippi State 
University; M.A., Sociology, C.W. Post Campus of Long Island University; 
A.B.J., Magazine Journalism, University of Georgia; A.A., English, 
Nassau Community College of the State University of New York
Profession/Occupation: College Sociology Professor

Name: Steve Marshall
Email address: forumbahai@es.co.nz
Country/State and City:Aotearoa / New Zealand, Otago / Otakou, Dunedin /
Otepoti
Short list of interests (for short list):Information Technology
Post-secondary education: Certificate in Library Studies
Type of Business (if any): ex-publisher of Forum magazine
Profession/Occupation: Librarian

Name: Seena Fazel
Email address: seena@castle.ed.ac.uk
Http home page (if any): none
Gender: M
Country/State and City: Oxford, U.K.  
Short list of interests (for short list): Bahai Faith and other religions;
religious pluralism; co-editor of *Bahai Studies Review*. 
Post-secondary education: Bachelor of science, medical degree. Edinburgh
University. 
Type of Business (if any): none
Profession/Occupation: Psychiatrist.

Name:   Juan Ricardo "Irfan" Cole
Email address:jrcole@umich.edu
Gender: male
Country/State and City:  Ann Arbor, Michigan
Short list of interests (for short list):Middle Eastern and South Asian 
History,Islamics, Baha'i Studies,
Post-secondary education:  B.A. Religion, Northwestern, 1975; M.A. Arabic
Studies/History, 
American University in Cairo, 1978;  Ph.D., Islamic Studies, UCLA, 1984.
Profession/Occupation:  Professor of Modern Middle East, Department of 
History, University of Michigan

Name:  Janine van Rooij
Email address: j.rooij@rechten.vu.nl
Gender:    female
Country/State and City: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Short list of interests (for short list): mystical ways, psychology, how to 
transform to a truly spiritual being
Post-secondary education: none
Profession/Occupation: secretary to the faculty of law of the Vrije 
Universiteit in Amsterdam

Name: Payam Rowhani
Email address: prowhani@ucdavis.edu
Gender: Male
Country/State and City: Davis, CA / U.S.
Post-secondary education: Ph.D. (In another year or so, God willing!)
Profession/Occupation: Engineer

Name:David Taylor
Handle(s) (on online services):Dave 10018
Email address:Dave 10018@aol.com
Gender:male
Country/State and City:Connecticut,West Hartford
Short list of interests (for short list):art theory and practice,incl.modern
and post modern history and criticism,questions of meaning-considering
mysticism as the attainment of a point of view which floods the world with
meaning, and art as the elaboration of potentially meaningful objects of
perception.
Post-secondary education:MFA University of Hartford,Jan. 1995, BFA Maryland
Institute College of Art,1977,also studied New York Studio School,76-77.
Profession/Occupation:artist(painter)seeking academic position

Name: Quanta Dawn-Light
Email address: dawnliqu@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu
Gender: female
Country/State and City: North Carolina
Short list of interests (for short list): Gardening, Community 
Development, Environmental Education
Post-secondary education :PBS Courses in Human Resource Development, 
Natural Resource Management, International Development
Profession/Occupation: currently Teaching Assistant in Computing Lab

Name:  Carmen Mathenge
Email address: cmathenge@aol.com
Gender: Female
Country/State and City:  Lawndale, California
Short list of interests (for short list):  Internet teaching, Baha'i Youth
Workshops, reading, poetry, creative journaling, codependency recovery,
astrology)
Post-secondary education: BMus, U. of Puget Sound, 1964; some graduate work
in African Studies at UCLA
Type of Business (if any):  Freelance copyediting and word processing  
Profession/Occupation:  Administrative Assistant, School of Nursing, UCLA

Name: Sen McGlinn
Email address: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
Gender:M
Country/State and City: The Netherlands, Maastricht
Short list of interests (for short list): theology: church & state,
                                          religion and aesthetics, christian
                                          theology, systematics and
                                          dogmatics in general
Post-secondary education:   Degree in English lit., uncompleted studies in
                            theology
Type of Business (if any): Translation/editing agency
Profession/Occupation: Freelance editor

Name:  Stephen Johnson
Email address: snoopy@skipper.physics.sunysb.edu
Http home page (if any): none
Gender: Male
Country/State and City: Stony Brook, NY 11733  USA
Short list of interests (for short list): Arabic, Farsi, Science and    Religion 
Post-secondary education: MS Physics SUNY Stony Brook.
Type of Business (if any): Working on PhD
Profession/Occupation: Student

 Name:Marisol Rivera-Thurman
 Email address:mr238@columbia.edu:
 Gender: female
 Country/State and City: New York, New York
 Short list of interests:Justice 
 Post-secondary education:BS Organizational Communications and Theatre,
 Emerson College. Candidate for MS in Social Work, Columbia University  
 Profession/Occupation:Social Worker and Theatre 
 for longer list:I am interested in applying Baha'i "third world" 
development project concepts to our very own (USA) "third world" 
communities.  I am also interested in exploring the approach to social 
activism as Baha'is. 

Name: Sonja van Kerkhoff
Email address: sen.mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Gender: FEMALE!
Country/State and City: Maastricht, The Netherlands.
Short list of interests (for short list): arts, gender, race, class, 
scholarship, 
Post-secondary education: Masters equivalent in Fine Arts.
Type of Business (if any): part-time translator/editor
Profession/Occupation:Artist and editor of Arts Dialogue

Name: Alison Marshall
Email address: forumbahai@es.co.nz
Gender: woman
Country/State and City: Dunedin, New Zealand
Short list of interests (for short list): issues that concern indigenous
people, Baha'i community life, worship, deepening, feminism, writing,
editing, Baha'i jurisprudence, Baha'i history
Post-secondary education: Batchelor degrees in Arts (philosophy) and law
Type of Business (if any):
Profession/Occupation: writer, editor, indexer

Name: David M. Simmons
Email address: dsimmons@esd101.wednet.edu
Gender:male
Country/State and City: USA, Washington, Veradale
Short list of interests (for short list):race relations, ethnology, 
folk music, multicultural education
Post-secondary education: Masters in Education, secondary 
social studies ed., Soviet and East European Studies
Profession/Occupation: ESL teacher, public high school

Name: Daniel C. Orey
Handle(s) (on online services): orey@csus.edu
Email address:orey@csus.edu
Gender: m
Country/State and City:California, United States
Short list of interests (for short list): mathematics education,
 ethnomathematics
Profession/Occupation: Director, Center for Teaching and Learning, California
State University, Sacramento; Associate Professor of Mathematics Education,
CSUS

Name: Firouz Baradaran Anaraki
Email address: firouz@au.ac.th
Gender: Male
Country/State and City: Bangkok, Thailand
Short list of interests (for short list): Reading, swimming
Post-secondary education: MS in Computer Science
Profession/Occupation: Director  Computer Lab Assumption University

Name: Hashim Taqvi 
Handle(s) (on online services): Netcom
Email address: taqvi@ix.netcom.com
Gender: Male
Country/State and City: U.S.A./Texas/Austin
Short list of interests (for short list):Surfing the Net and Teaching 
the Faith.
Post-secondary education: M.A.(Economics)from Pakistan
Type of Business (if any):Child Care Center
Profession/Occupation:Business

Name:Kenneth (Ken) Joseph Seidenman
Email address:kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Gender: Male
Country/State and City:USA/IL  Chicago
Post-secondary education:BS in Biochemistry/Molecular Biology; currently in 
graduate school (Ph.D. program) in neurobiology.
Profession/Occupation: graduate student

Name: Nima Hazini
Email address: Sadra conclusion that "the reason for the exclusion of women from serving
>as members of the House is not practical" is premature, and that
>there are practical issues relating to the gender composition of
>the UHJ that have not yet (to my knowledge) received much attention.

......  It would be helpful to
>exhaust these lines of inquiry before concluding that an all male
>UHJ has only symbolic value.

I am a little surprised that you haven't heard speculation about the ability
of males and females to consult together at the exalted level of the
Universal House of Justice before,Don.(I know the abbreviation but I prefer
to write the name out fully or speak of "the House")  I am quite sure I have
heard this idea before, and it is not, in my view, an idea which bears much
scrutiny.  I will leave that discussion to others. As to  the question of
apparent impropriety in a body with both men and women, this is similarly
unconvincing. I will observe that there  have been no such scandals involving
the NSA of the United States. Although it is a controversial body in some
respects, no one complains because two members are married to each other, or
because one member is married to another member's mother. 


I do want to question, Don,  your apparent assumption that   reasons  of what
we call "practical" value are preferable to  matters of "only symbolic
value." You seem to think that symbolic reasons are less real than practical
ones and that a search for practical reasons must be exhausted before the
symbolic context can be considered.  Symbolism, Don, is real and important.
Fasting, for example, is important to us as a symbol of our control of our
appetites and our sacrificial devotion to our Lord. By this symbolic practice
we strengthen our dedication.  Any practical benefits you can come up with,
whether social or individual, are secondary to its symbolic purpose. 

Ask yourself, Don, why you want a "practical" explanation. And how do you
explain the patriarchal imagery in the Faith?

cheers

David Taylor







From burlb@bmi.netFri Oct 20 23:46:46 1995
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 95 15:11 PDT
From: Burl Barer 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Vink's pics

Recently Ian Vink posted directions to his FTP or HML or LS/MFT or whatever
you call it where he has all sorts of Baha'i pictures available for
downloading.  I have lost directions to this site, so if you know it, please
tel me.

Thanks!

Burl Barer


From TLCULHANE@aol.comFri Oct 20 23:48:28 1995
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 19:04:17 -0400
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: justice and Bahai coutrs 2

     Dear Rick and friends .

        The difference we have on the question of human perception and
*Reality* is significant . The Sun and mirror metaphors  you sem to want to
take as a literal description of *reality* . I take them as Baha u llahs
attempt , given the language of the time , to try and describe to us a
relationship .

     I do not believe reality is an unchanging constant - the Unknowable
Essence may well be - but I am not privy to the secrets of the Nature of that
Reality . If we are speaking of some spiritual reality i do not believe it is
an unchanging one that somehow this world is a mere reflection of in a static
or ephemeral sense .  This world is real albeit of a lessor degree . To
suggest otherwise seems to me  to fall into a world denying gnosticism that
repudiates any need to "change " this world . Not much point in justice in
other words because it is all meaningless on this plane of existence. 

     We all have intellectual / cultural antecedents we bring to the
understanding of the *Faith * .  The perception  of a changeless realm is a
pre- Plotinian advocacy of Platos meta physic .  Neither you or I or anyone
else come to the Faith tabla rosa . I am more than willng to tell you who
those humans are who influence my understanding of what Baha u llah has to
say . My netephysic for instance has been influenced since being a teenager
39 years ago by A . N. Whitehead  among others . I do not believe you or I
have some "pure " unadultered perception of what the faith is . 

      As for the opening paragraph of the Iqan - one of my fsavorites
committed to memory - this seems to me about the *Remembrabce * of God . As
such it is an earlt statement of the Opening paragraph of the  Aqdas
recognition and observance . I dont find in the openinmg of the Iqan having
anything to do with  the Administration as some ideasl type . I mean this in
all respect I believe that the attempt to equate the Administration with
 recognotion of the Manifestation is a form of idolotry. And it concerns me a
great deal . 

   As for Administration as Lessor covenant which is at the heart of "my "
perception , i do not think they are at all the same . I have alreadt
indicated that , in my view , the lessor covenant cannot be understood or
even be meaningful without reference to the *greater * covenant  which is
about * remembrance*  , In turn administration cannot be understood or have
any meaninf without reference to the entire * ORDER *  of Baha u llah which
most importantly includes the Mashriqu l Adhkar .  The " .  purpose of
justice is the appearence  of unity amongst men . ' as Baha u llah states in
the Kalimat ( I might add this tablet is central to my understanding of
things as is ESW P 12 -45 )   
      
       The Houses of Justice have as their fdunction the promotion
 protection and safeguarding of unity which involves eliminating the sources
and basis of division and conflict  in this world . If the current form or
practice of the administrative arm of the *ORDER * of Baha u llah is not
accomplishing that end ot needs to be addrezssed and made more capable of
doing just that . I dont find the current form of Administration as having
some unchangimg Platonic counterpart in the spiritual world and there fore to
suggest it could be improved, given the current circumstances of human
existence, is tantamount to contravening the will of God .
   
      The second crucial arm of that * ORDER * of Bahau llah is the Mashriq .
The beloved guardian seemed to think it was mightily important . After all it
appeared in the world before even the Universal House of Justice .  The
 House of Worship ( shorthand for mashriq ) is the  Dawning  Place of the *
Remembrance * of God .  It is the House of Oneness or Unity . I am suggesting
that an y discussion of the administrative arm of the * ORDER * of Baha u
llah that does not take into account the place , role and scope of the HOuse
of Worship or the House of  Unity will be inherently deficient . It is
justices role to promote unity. 

    The beauty of the lessor covenant is not that it enforces some " pure "
definition of what is a Bahai or what is administration . It seems to me
exactly this . Terry Culhane cannot no matter how much he may disagree with
Rick Schaut run him out of the Faith or create a seperate "church" filed with
only those who think like he does .  Rick Shaut mo matter how much he may
disagree with terry Culhane cannot run him out of the Faith or create a
seperate * church" filled only with those who think like him . There is no
place or special encalve that Bahais get to go and hide in fron the reality
of human diversity . It is this incredible * pragmatic * rather than
*metaphysical *  implcation of Baha ullah's which awes me . The world is stil
attempting to find various enclaves of ethnic , religious or political purity
in which to escape from the diversity of human life .  . That some Bahais
 would see their religion in those terms is not unusual . The lessor covenant
I am in submission to is the one which says their is no place to run or hide
. You no longer are allowed to do the in sy outsy stuff . If the Bahai
community succeeds it will be percisely in this regard . It will be a
community  of huamn beings who voluntarilly come together out of love for
Baha ullah  and use the instruments he has given us as pragmatic tools to
create a world that has never before existed . That is a world in which every
human being is welcome and a world in which no human being may exalt
themselves above another based on all the age old reasons human beings have
concoted for doing so .  And the adminsitrative arm of Baha u llahs ORDER has
as its purpose the  fostering of just such a world. 
 
 warm regards ,
    Terry      

From TLCULHANE@aol.comSat Oct 21 00:17:45 1995
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 22:49:06 -0400
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re:Bon Jovi, Sting et al 

      Dear Bev ,

      When you needed me I was in the midst of a 5 year hiatus from the Bahai
community because I did know how to deal with the very things you described
in your post . 

      Some months ago , in a fifferent context , I mentioned my then 16 year
olds attempted siucide ( this was 6 years ago ) . He has recovered and taught
his father a goood dea about the love of our Beloved .  I understand at least
some of your pain . 
      
     As for Jon Bon Jovi  I happen to like much of his work . His _Bed of
Roses _ song a couple of years ago I use as a powerful counterpart to Baha u
llah's Tablet of the Lover and the Beloved found in Gleanings p319-322 .  I
sit with the youh and sing along with them and then have them recite this
Tablet or pasages from it . The music as you know touches them . So imagine
if you will having listened to Bon Jovi sing "     . . lay you down in a bed
of roses .. ." and the kids are in touch with their hearts and one ot more of
them begins in a heartfelt voice  to say the following from this Tablet .

      " release yourselves , O hightingales of God from the thorns and
brambles of wretchedness and misery ( booze and drugs) and wing your flight
to the rose garden of unfading splendor ." . . " for whereas in days past
every lover besought  and searched after his  Beloved , it is the Beloved
Himself Who now is calling his lovers . ."
      Hear Me , ye mortal birds ! In the Rose Garden of changeless splendor a
Flower hath begun to bloom , compared to which every other flower is but a
thorn , and before the brightness of Whose Glory the very essence of beauty
must pale and wither. 
     
       Now listen to the song again and *see * yourself laying down in that
bed of roses that is now the ""Rose Garden " of changeless splendor and  *
see* Baha u llah in feminine or masculine form   appear before you call her /
his lovers to the Beloved . Once upon that bed of roses  hear the Beloved
 speaking  and experience the joy and exhilaration of  inhaling "  .the
fragrance of the incorruptible Flower " of breathing    ". . the sweet savors
of holiness " of obtaining  ." .  a portion of the perfume of celestial glory
"  of tasting " . . the abandonment of enraptures love "  of surrendering
ones "  . . soul into the hands of the Beloved . 
     The youth dont take lone to *see*  the powerful erotic images
asssociated with this sacred scripture . And this is what love of God is
about. It is this real , it can be * tasted *  and create amazing longing .
 There is a tension in the experience which there ought to be . 
  
     Baha u lah continues .
     " The everlasting Candle shineth in its naked glory , Behold how it hath
consumed every mortal veil . 
   
       Let them ponder and feel this  and then listen again  to Him 
    " O ye that thirst after Him ! Strip yourselves of every earthly
affection, and hasten to embrace your Beloved .  . . The Flower, thus far
hidden from the sight of men, is unveiled to your eyes .  In the open
rasdiance of his glory He standeth before you . 

      I should note that i have this thinh about the Divine Feminine and many
of these metaphorical references refer to Her as well  ( I happen to think it
is Baha u lah's homage to Her  and tell the youth such) 
   
      After they settle in to the powerful  spiritual eroticism of this
Tablet i remind them again that this is Scripture . This means that  these
words of Baha ulah have thwe same status in the Faith as does the Bible to
Christians and the Quran to Moslms  . We get to discuss what is it Baha u
llah is telling us about our relationship to God .  We are they are  in
essence Houses of Worship - Dawning Places of the remembrance of God - and as
such their being and their bodies are sacred  , to be respected and honored .
 it does not take a genius to figure out the implications of that for gender
violence for example .  Your soul is the bed of roses  in which the Beloved
 * desires * to know you . 

      You may have alerady seen some of what I do with the HW's and the folks
I call those great American mystics the Eagles . 

    Then there is Sting and _ Fields of Gold _ . That has some rich resonance
with some passages from the IQAN and the AQDAS  which is , of course the land
of the *Most Holy* . I like to ponder with them  the fields of barley found
in the land of the Most Holy . 

     I can assure you that if your son were here  and wanted to be in a band
to teach the Faith that I and the mothers and fathers of Omaha would
encourage it . BTW my 2nd son now 16 has a pony tail to just below his
shoulder blades . 

   warmest regards ,
      Terry


From dpeden@imul.comSat Oct 21 01:04:39 1995
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 95 07:50:33+030
From: Don Peden 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Bon jovi et al

Dear Joan:

We couldn't move to another community.  We were pioneering in Africa at the
time, and had left our oldest boys "in trust" with a community institution
for their education.  There was no possibility of education for them where
we were, other than correspondence, which is what we resorted to in the end.

We did write to our NSA, and the Universal House, and with respect.  The
wheels were slow in turning, but they did respond, and in a very dignified,
healing way (at least for Don and I).  However, the damage has been done.
Our "wayward" son just had a black cloud on his face at the mention of the
Baha'i Community, and did not want to read the letter at all.  The NSA met
with the community in question, did a lot of investigating, and did address
the issue, apologized for the treatment of our son, and took corrective
measures to ensure it was not a problem in future for others.  We can ask no
more....except for healing for our son in our prayers.  Don and I are in
"process".

Thank you for your words of encouragement.

Bev




From cbuck@ccs.carleton.caSat Oct 21 18:44:44 1995
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 95 2:51:39 EDT
From: Christopher Buck 
To: Stephen Johnson 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: KI: Introductory Statements

	The beloved Guardian's description of the style of the Kitab-i-Iqan
as *A model of Persian prose, of a style at once original, chaste and
vigorous, and remarkably lucid, both cogent in argument and matchless
in its irresistible eloquence,* appears to be based on Edward Granville
Browne's description of the Iqan as *a work of great merit, VIGOROUS
in STYLE, clear in ARGUMENT, COGENT in proof* (M. Momen [ed.], _E.G.
Browne and the Baha'i Faith_, p. 254).

	Christopher Buck

**********************************************************************



From towfiq@suneast.east.sun.comSat Oct 21 18:46:29 1995
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 23:21:02 -0500
From: Mark Towfiq 
To: Baha'i Announce 
Subject: "Turning Point For All Nations" now available on the Web

The new statement issued by the Baha'i International Community on the occasion 
of the 50th anniversary of the United Nations, "Turning Point For All 
Nations", is now available at 
http://sunsite.unc.edu/Bahai/Texts/English/Turning-Point-For-All-Nations.html

If you don't want to type all of that out, just go to 
http://sunsite.unc.edu/Bahai and click from there!

Versions in French and Spanish are coming soon, and will be at the same URL, 
with "French" and "Spanish" substituted for "English".

Please note that this site also has The Prosperity of Humankind statement in 
HTML as well.

More BIC-related things will be coming soon...stay tuned!

Allah-u-Abha,
Mark

 

From Dave10018@aol.comSat Oct 21 18:47:30 1995
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 10:19:40 -0400
From: Dave10018@aol.com
To: dpeden@imul.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Bon jovi et al

Dear Bev,

Your story brings many thoughts, including my own nine years away from the
Baha'i Community, and my lifelong love of rock and roll despite community
narrowness. Art, poetry are parodoxical spiritual avenues. I became a Baha'i
because of an intuition that came to me while listening to "Turn!Turn!Turn!",
song written by dear Communist Pete Seeger, as performed by the Byrds.
However one conceptualizes "Cause" and "Community", whether one says that one
should value individuals above ideas or says that one should look to one's
own experience rather than one's neighbor's concept of what is proper, it
comes to the same thing, that justice demands we use our own eyes and ears,
(as in the Hidden Words) and  we have suffered too long from hostile and
superficial judgement of each other. Of course the Truth is reflected
everywhere!  People willing to use their own eyes and make connections are
alwklays needed and apt to be attacked by people stuck in their own
sanctimonious blindness. This is the kind of "mental test" many of us here
have suffered from. I came back to the Faith because I realized my sense of
something lacking in the Community was also a sense of where I might work to
improve things. I find that many, many, are working with the same thought. I
am confident as time goes on your sons will find the Community a more
attractive and effective place to express their love for humanity and for
music that jumps with rhythm and love and rage. 

love,

david taylor(age 42)


From carl@grapevine-sys.comSat Oct 21 18:48:25 1995
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 12:06:59 -0500
From: Carl Hawse 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Rock Music, Fundamentalism, Absurdity


Glad to see the postings on the Rock music experience!

One of the things I like about the Faith so much is its flexibility.  It has
the ability to accept a wide variety of individuals and cultures, with a few
exceptions.  It's hard for me to accept exclusionary fundamentalist
attitudes where the primary instruction for dealing with people is love and
acceptance.

>From what I understand, the rules are like this:

        - set an example, but don't preach
        - lead, but don't force
        - if they just don't get it, show them respect and let them be
        - obeying the laws of the faith is (mostly) between God and believer
        - teach principles and the rules will emerge

>From what I've read about the future of the Baha'i community, there is going
to be an enormous transformation into a society which cannot be comprehended
using current models. The general principles of societal operation will
fundamentally change.  And modern-day America is NOT the paradigm which will
underlie the New World Order.  It's part of the challenge of the U.S. Baha'i
community to let go of this materialistic, factional, political, violent
society and build something new.  (I like that part, even though I'm not
Baha'i!)

Any situation in which Baha'is are saying "My religion is better than your
religion" or "My faith is stronger than your faith" to chastise people for
not living up to "Baha'i standards" is fundamentally wrong as I understand
the principles of the Faith.  I seem to recall somewhere that 'Abdul-Baha
even encouraged some people to remain Christians because their spirituality
in that faith was so strong.  That's flexibility!

When rules are too rigid, the rules start to become more important than
principles.  So people discuss the rules (like the Women on the House issue)
and can get caught up in "legal" arguments.  The discussion on Talisman went
very well, and with enough detachment that nobody got hurt.  Looks like that
didn't happen in the persecution of rock-oriented teenagers.

Regarding what the Faith permits: is there a general acceptance of rock
music as a teaching tool for youth among the communities?  Is youth
alienation due to excessive rigidity of the Faith a perceived problem?  Does
the Faith frown upon such possibly non-dignified artforms as absurdity and
surrealism?  Is there a place for artforms with powerful yet grotesque imagery?

Take, for example, a painting of a bloody and dismembered body in a
desert--the blood seeping from the severed limbs spells "disunity" on the
sands in several languages.    What do you think?

On a scale of one to four:  
Forbidden, Discouraged, Grudgingly Accepted, or Embraced? Or just disgusting...


------------------------------------
Carl Hawse
carl@skipper.grapevine-sys.com
http://www.grapevine-sys.com/~carl
------------------------------------


From 73074.1221@compuserve.comSat Oct 21 18:52:03 1995
Date: 21 Oct 95 14:45:06 EDT
From: "Mary K. Radpour" <73074.1221@compuserve.com>
To: "\"[G. Brent Poirier]\"" 
Cc: Talisman 
Subject: Bahai Zen (fwd)

Dear Brent,
	I was a little amused at how one thought can be transformed into another
so easily....The story conveyed here is, I believe, not about Baha'u'llah, but
about Abdu'l-Baha. The woman is Florence Breed Khan, who was told by Abdu'l-Baha
something like that the best prayer for a good meal is a cookbook. Marzieh Gail
tells this story in one of her books.  And it is so fascinating that this story
became a transition  into Zen Buddhism.
	Cheers, Mary K


From jrcole@umich.eduSat Oct 21 23:20:03 1995
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 18:59:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Juan R Cole 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: wired world government



>From an interview with Nicholas Negroponte, MIT Multimedia Lab, in the 
current issue of *Wired* magazine, p. 200:


Q.  You're on record as questioning the viability of government in a 
wired world.  How do you see a stateless world working?

NN:  The state will shrink and expand at the same time.  It will get 
smaller in order to be more local, with proximity and place playing a 
strong role.  It will get larger in the sense of being global.  I don't 
have a recipe for managing such a world, but its laws will have to be 
more global.  Cyber-law is global law.




JRIC:  There is also an interesting discussion of the ways in which the 
implications of cyberspace may have been overblown, in the current *New 
Left Review.*



cheers    Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan

From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzSat Oct 21 23:20:22 1995
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 12:56:47 +1100
From: Robert Johnston 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: wired world government

Re:

>NN:  The state will shrink and expand at the same time.  It will get
>smaller in order to be more local, with proximity and place playing a
>strong role.  It will get larger in the sense of being global.


Such an interesting point.  It seems to me that the sign of good
governement (at any level, including personal) is the cultivation of both
uniqueness and universality.  Postmodernists tend to focus excessively on
the local, modernists on the universal. The Faith has the balance.

Robert.