From Member1700@aol.comFri Oct 20 15:40:36 1995 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 14:31:33 -0400 From: Member1700@aol.com To: Talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Cause and Community Dearest Bev: The story of your sons moved me deeply. I do understand your concerns and your choices. However, I would say that the insensitivity and abuse which your sons experienced stems directly from exalting the "Cause" over the people in it. To often, in the name of the Cause we are willing to do damage to individuals who make up the community. Tony From PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.eduFri Oct 20 15:41:12 1995 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:38:55 PST8PDT From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: Talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Women & UHJ: Reframing the Question (hanging upside down?) Hi, re: > Subject: Women & UHJ: Reframing the Question > To: Dave10018@aol.com > Date sent: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 13:49:08 -0400 (EDT) > From: "Donald Zhang Osborn" > Copies to: Talisman@Indiana.edu > Allah'u'abha! > Thank you Dave for your thoughtful consideration of the issue of > why women are not allowed to serve on the Universal House of > Justice (UHJ). I would like to suggest, however, that your > conclusion that "the reason for the exclusion of women from serving > as members of the House is not practical" is premature, and that > there are practical issues relating to the gender composition of > the UHJ that have not yet (to my knowledge) received much attention. ...snip I've always visualized them as wise grandfatherly/uncle types, so it never occured to me that maybe I should think of the UHJ as "Ubiquitously Horny Jurisprudents"! :) (sorry, its friday) EP ps, I know "jurisprudent" is not a real word (right?) From email@example.comFri Oct 20 15:44:01 1995 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:13:12 -0700 From: Rick Schaut To: "firstname.lastname@example.org" , "'TLCULHANE@aol.com'" Subject: RE: justice and Bahai courts Dear Terry and Friends, First, regarding the way our perceptions affect reality, I think it can be understood on several different levels. Certainly, our perceptions affect the way we behave, and it is our behavior which constitutes the reflection of the Divine Reality in the phenomenal world. But we should always remember that the reflection is not the reality. The sun in the mirror is not the sun itself (even though we may have no practical or emperical way of distinguishing between the two). I think the opening paragraphs of the Kitab-i-Iqan are the most telling. Until we cease to regard human standards as the means of measuring the Revelation, we will never attain the shores of certitude. This requires that we constantly question the validity of our own perceptions and strive to obtain a deeper understanding of that Reality we were created to reflect. Which leads me to the following remarks. I've trimed them perhaps excessively in the interests of saving bandwitdh, but I don't believe I've done them harm in doing so. From: TLCULHANE@aol.com[SMTP:TLCULHANE@aol.com] >Administration is a means to an end >and that end is unity. It wil always be up to us imperfect beings to >implement justice through a set of divinely ordained institutions.we will in >all liklihood do it imperfectly in this world . The _structure_ of the Administrative Order, however, has been Divinely ordained. The question seems to be whether or not focusing on changes to this structure constitute appropriate efforts to achieve the end that this Divinely ordained structure is designed to achieve. Do these structural changes really improve the system's ability to achieve the end it is designed to achieve? Yes, it will always be up to us imperfect beings to implement justice, and the implementation will never be perfect. If we persist in measuring the value of the system in terms of the present state of the system, we will allways be dissatisfied with the results. Rather, we need to strive to perceive the _processes_ involved. What are the dynamics of the system? Is the system progressing towards a more perfect reflection of the Divine reality or is it moving away from that goal? If we propose a structural change, does the change make the system progress faster, slower or does the change have no effect at all on the progress of the system? These are the questions we need to answer, here, and they, quite simply, haven't been addressed. To fail to answer these questions is to do precisely what we have been cautioned against doing: making administration an end in itself. Warmest Regards, Rick Schaut From PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.eduFri Oct 20 16:00:54 1995 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 12:31:31 PST8PDT From: "Eric D. Pierce" To: email@example.com Subject: BioBank data - repost This a voluntary project, does not include all talisman participants. The form will be included in another posting in a few minutes. EP (PierceED@csus.edu) ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date sent: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 00:39:29 -0700 To: firstname.lastname@example.org From: Safa Sadeghpour Subject: BioBank data Phone numbers and Mailing Addresses have been removed due to security considerations. If you need this information please contact the individual directly by using email. Dearly, Safa PS: Please let me know of any errors, deficiencies, or other problems related with the BioBank data. ************************************************************ Name: Mark Foster Handle(s) (on online services): Realityman (America Online and AT&T Interchange) and RealityDude (Microsoft Interchange) Email address: Internet: email@example.com (primary Internet address); CompuServe: 72642,3105; Prodigy: UWMG94A; America Online: Realityman; Interchange: Realityman; Microsoft Network: RealityDude Http home page (if any): None Gender: Male Country/State and City: Olathe, Kansas (U.S.A.) Short list of interests (for short list): (See long list) Post-secondary education: Ph.D., Sociology, Mississippi State University; M.A., Sociology, C.W. Post Campus of Long Island University; A.B.J., Magazine Journalism, University of Georgia; A.A., English, Nassau Community College of the State University of New York Profession/Occupation: College Sociology Professor Name: Steve Marshall Email address: firstname.lastname@example.org Country/State and City:Aotearoa / New Zealand, Otago / Otakou, Dunedin / Otepoti Short list of interests (for short list):Information Technology Post-secondary education: Certificate in Library Studies Type of Business (if any): ex-publisher of Forum magazine Profession/Occupation: Librarian Name: Seena Fazel Email address: email@example.com Http home page (if any): none Gender: M Country/State and City: Oxford, U.K. Short list of interests (for short list): Bahai Faith and other religions; religious pluralism; co-editor of *Bahai Studies Review*. Post-secondary education: Bachelor of science, medical degree. Edinburgh University. Type of Business (if any): none Profession/Occupation: Psychiatrist. Name: Juan Ricardo "Irfan" Cole Email address:firstname.lastname@example.org Gender: male Country/State and City: Ann Arbor, Michigan Short list of interests (for short list):Middle Eastern and South Asian History,Islamics, Baha'i Studies, Post-secondary education: B.A. Religion, Northwestern, 1975; M.A. Arabic Studies/History, American University in Cairo, 1978; Ph.D., Islamic Studies, UCLA, 1984. Profession/Occupation: Professor of Modern Middle East, Department of History, University of Michigan Name: Janine van Rooij Email address: email@example.com Gender: female Country/State and City: Amsterdam, The Netherlands Short list of interests (for short list): mystical ways, psychology, how to transform to a truly spiritual being Post-secondary education: none Profession/Occupation: secretary to the faculty of law of the Vrije Universiteit in Amsterdam Name: Payam Rowhani Email address: firstname.lastname@example.org Gender: Male Country/State and City: Davis, CA / U.S. Post-secondary education: Ph.D. (In another year or so, God willing!) Profession/Occupation: Engineer Name:David Taylor Handle(s) (on online services):Dave 10018 Email address:Dave email@example.com Gender:male Country/State and City:Connecticut,West Hartford Short list of interests (for short list):art theory and practice,incl.modern and post modern history and criticism,questions of meaning-considering mysticism as the attainment of a point of view which floods the world with meaning, and art as the elaboration of potentially meaningful objects of perception. Post-secondary education:MFA University of Hartford,Jan. 1995, BFA Maryland Institute College of Art,1977,also studied New York Studio School,76-77. Profession/Occupation:artist(painter)seeking academic position Name: Quanta Dawn-Light Email address: firstname.lastname@example.org Gender: female Country/State and City: North Carolina Short list of interests (for short list): Gardening, Community Development, Environmental Education Post-secondary education :PBS Courses in Human Resource Development, Natural Resource Management, International Development Profession/Occupation: currently Teaching Assistant in Computing Lab Name: Carmen Mathenge Email address: email@example.com Gender: Female Country/State and City: Lawndale, California Short list of interests (for short list): Internet teaching, Baha'i Youth Workshops, reading, poetry, creative journaling, codependency recovery, astrology) Post-secondary education: BMus, U. of Puget Sound, 1964; some graduate work in African Studies at UCLA Type of Business (if any): Freelance copyediting and word processing Profession/Occupation: Administrative Assistant, School of Nursing, UCLA Name: Sen McGlinn Email address: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL Gender:M Country/State and City: The Netherlands, Maastricht Short list of interests (for short list): theology: church & state, religion and aesthetics, christian theology, systematics and dogmatics in general Post-secondary education: Degree in English lit., uncompleted studies in theology Type of Business (if any): Translation/editing agency Profession/Occupation: Freelance editor Name: Stephen Johnson Email address: firstname.lastname@example.org Http home page (if any): none Gender: Male Country/State and City: Stony Brook, NY 11733 USA Short list of interests (for short list): Arabic, Farsi, Science and Religion Post-secondary education: MS Physics SUNY Stony Brook. Type of Business (if any): Working on PhD Profession/Occupation: Student Name:Marisol Rivera-Thurman Email address:email@example.com: Gender: female Country/State and City: New York, New York Short list of interests:Justice Post-secondary education:BS Organizational Communications and Theatre, Emerson College. Candidate for MS in Social Work, Columbia University Profession/Occupation:Social Worker and Theatre for longer list:I am interested in applying Baha'i "third world" development project concepts to our very own (USA) "third world" communities. I am also interested in exploring the approach to social activism as Baha'is. Name: Sonja van Kerkhoff Email address: firstname.lastname@example.org Gender: FEMALE! Country/State and City: Maastricht, The Netherlands. Short list of interests (for short list): arts, gender, race, class, scholarship, Post-secondary education: Masters equivalent in Fine Arts. Type of Business (if any): part-time translator/editor Profession/Occupation:Artist and editor of Arts Dialogue Name: Alison Marshall Email address: email@example.com Gender: woman Country/State and City: Dunedin, New Zealand Short list of interests (for short list): issues that concern indigenous people, Baha'i community life, worship, deepening, feminism, writing, editing, Baha'i jurisprudence, Baha'i history Post-secondary education: Batchelor degrees in Arts (philosophy) and law Type of Business (if any): Profession/Occupation: writer, editor, indexer Name: David M. Simmons Email address: firstname.lastname@example.org Gender:male Country/State and City: USA, Washington, Veradale Short list of interests (for short list):race relations, ethnology, folk music, multicultural education Post-secondary education: Masters in Education, secondary social studies ed., Soviet and East European Studies Profession/Occupation: ESL teacher, public high school Name: Daniel C. Orey Handle(s) (on online services): email@example.com Email address:firstname.lastname@example.org Gender: m Country/State and City:California, United States Short list of interests (for short list): mathematics education, ethnomathematics Profession/Occupation: Director, Center for Teaching and Learning, California State University, Sacramento; Associate Professor of Mathematics Education, CSUS Name: Firouz Baradaran Anaraki Email address: email@example.com Gender: Male Country/State and City: Bangkok, Thailand Short list of interests (for short list): Reading, swimming Post-secondary education: MS in Computer Science Profession/Occupation: Director Computer Lab Assumption University Name: Hashim Taqvi Handle(s) (on online services): Netcom Email address: firstname.lastname@example.org Gender: Male Country/State and City: U.S.A./Texas/Austin Short list of interests (for short list):Surfing the Net and Teaching the Faith. Post-secondary education: M.A.(Economics)from Pakistan Type of Business (if any):Child Care Center Profession/Occupation:Business Name:Kenneth (Ken) Joseph Seidenman Email address:email@example.com Gender: Male Country/State and City:USA/IL Chicago Post-secondary education:BS in Biochemistry/Molecular Biology; currently in graduate school (Ph.D. program) in neurobiology. Profession/Occupation: graduate student Name: Nima Hazini Email address: Sadra conclusion that "the reason for the exclusion of women from serving >as members of the House is not practical" is premature, and that >there are practical issues relating to the gender composition of >the UHJ that have not yet (to my knowledge) received much attention. ...... It would be helpful to >exhaust these lines of inquiry before concluding that an all male >UHJ has only symbolic value. I am a little surprised that you haven't heard speculation about the ability of males and females to consult together at the exalted level of the Universal House of Justice before,Don.(I know the abbreviation but I prefer to write the name out fully or speak of "the House") I am quite sure I have heard this idea before, and it is not, in my view, an idea which bears much scrutiny. I will leave that discussion to others. As to the question of apparent impropriety in a body with both men and women, this is similarly unconvincing. I will observe that there have been no such scandals involving the NSA of the United States. Although it is a controversial body in some respects, no one complains because two members are married to each other, or because one member is married to another member's mother. I do want to question, Don, your apparent assumption that reasons of what we call "practical" value are preferable to matters of "only symbolic value." You seem to think that symbolic reasons are less real than practical ones and that a search for practical reasons must be exhausted before the symbolic context can be considered. Symbolism, Don, is real and important. Fasting, for example, is important to us as a symbol of our control of our appetites and our sacrificial devotion to our Lord. By this symbolic practice we strengthen our dedication. Any practical benefits you can come up with, whether social or individual, are secondary to its symbolic purpose. Ask yourself, Don, why you want a "practical" explanation. And how do you explain the patriarchal imagery in the Faith? cheers David Taylor From firstname.lastname@example.orgFri Oct 20 23:46:46 1995 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 95 15:11 PDT From: Burl Barer To: email@example.com Subject: Vink's pics Recently Ian Vink posted directions to his FTP or HML or LS/MFT or whatever you call it where he has all sorts of Baha'i pictures available for downloading. I have lost directions to this site, so if you know it, please tel me. Thanks! Burl Barer From TLCULHANE@aol.comFri Oct 20 23:48:28 1995 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 19:04:17 -0400 From: TLCULHANE@aol.com To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: re: justice and Bahai coutrs 2 Dear Rick and friends . The difference we have on the question of human perception and *Reality* is significant . The Sun and mirror metaphors you sem to want to take as a literal description of *reality* . I take them as Baha u llahs attempt , given the language of the time , to try and describe to us a relationship . I do not believe reality is an unchanging constant - the Unknowable Essence may well be - but I am not privy to the secrets of the Nature of that Reality . If we are speaking of some spiritual reality i do not believe it is an unchanging one that somehow this world is a mere reflection of in a static or ephemeral sense . This world is real albeit of a lessor degree . To suggest otherwise seems to me to fall into a world denying gnosticism that repudiates any need to "change " this world . Not much point in justice in other words because it is all meaningless on this plane of existence. We all have intellectual / cultural antecedents we bring to the understanding of the *Faith * . The perception of a changeless realm is a pre- Plotinian advocacy of Platos meta physic . Neither you or I or anyone else come to the Faith tabla rosa . I am more than willng to tell you who those humans are who influence my understanding of what Baha u llah has to say . My netephysic for instance has been influenced since being a teenager 39 years ago by A . N. Whitehead among others . I do not believe you or I have some "pure " unadultered perception of what the faith is . As for the opening paragraph of the Iqan - one of my fsavorites committed to memory - this seems to me about the *Remembrabce * of God . As such it is an earlt statement of the Opening paragraph of the Aqdas recognition and observance . I dont find in the openinmg of the Iqan having anything to do with the Administration as some ideasl type . I mean this in all respect I believe that the attempt to equate the Administration with recognotion of the Manifestation is a form of idolotry. And it concerns me a great deal . As for Administration as Lessor covenant which is at the heart of "my " perception , i do not think they are at all the same . I have alreadt indicated that , in my view , the lessor covenant cannot be understood or even be meaningful without reference to the *greater * covenant which is about * remembrance* , In turn administration cannot be understood or have any meaninf without reference to the entire * ORDER * of Baha u llah which most importantly includes the Mashriqu l Adhkar . The " . purpose of justice is the appearence of unity amongst men . ' as Baha u llah states in the Kalimat ( I might add this tablet is central to my understanding of things as is ESW P 12 -45 ) The Houses of Justice have as their fdunction the promotion protection and safeguarding of unity which involves eliminating the sources and basis of division and conflict in this world . If the current form or practice of the administrative arm of the *ORDER * of Baha u llah is not accomplishing that end ot needs to be addrezssed and made more capable of doing just that . I dont find the current form of Administration as having some unchangimg Platonic counterpart in the spiritual world and there fore to suggest it could be improved, given the current circumstances of human existence, is tantamount to contravening the will of God . The second crucial arm of that * ORDER * of Bahau llah is the Mashriq . The beloved guardian seemed to think it was mightily important . After all it appeared in the world before even the Universal House of Justice . The House of Worship ( shorthand for mashriq ) is the Dawning Place of the * Remembrance * of God . It is the House of Oneness or Unity . I am suggesting that an y discussion of the administrative arm of the * ORDER * of Baha u llah that does not take into account the place , role and scope of the HOuse of Worship or the House of Unity will be inherently deficient . It is justices role to promote unity. The beauty of the lessor covenant is not that it enforces some " pure " definition of what is a Bahai or what is administration . It seems to me exactly this . Terry Culhane cannot no matter how much he may disagree with Rick Schaut run him out of the Faith or create a seperate "church" filed with only those who think like he does . Rick Shaut mo matter how much he may disagree with terry Culhane cannot run him out of the Faith or create a seperate * church" filled only with those who think like him . There is no place or special encalve that Bahais get to go and hide in fron the reality of human diversity . It is this incredible * pragmatic * rather than *metaphysical * implcation of Baha ullah's which awes me . The world is stil attempting to find various enclaves of ethnic , religious or political purity in which to escape from the diversity of human life . . That some Bahais would see their religion in those terms is not unusual . The lessor covenant I am in submission to is the one which says their is no place to run or hide . You no longer are allowed to do the in sy outsy stuff . If the Bahai community succeeds it will be percisely in this regard . It will be a community of huamn beings who voluntarilly come together out of love for Baha ullah and use the instruments he has given us as pragmatic tools to create a world that has never before existed . That is a world in which every human being is welcome and a world in which no human being may exalt themselves above another based on all the age old reasons human beings have concoted for doing so . And the adminsitrative arm of Baha u llahs ORDER has as its purpose the fostering of just such a world. warm regards , Terry From TLCULHANE@aol.comSat Oct 21 00:17:45 1995 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 22:49:06 -0400 From: TLCULHANE@aol.com To: email@example.com Subject: re:Bon Jovi, Sting et al Dear Bev , When you needed me I was in the midst of a 5 year hiatus from the Bahai community because I did know how to deal with the very things you described in your post . Some months ago , in a fifferent context , I mentioned my then 16 year olds attempted siucide ( this was 6 years ago ) . He has recovered and taught his father a goood dea about the love of our Beloved . I understand at least some of your pain . As for Jon Bon Jovi I happen to like much of his work . His _Bed of Roses _ song a couple of years ago I use as a powerful counterpart to Baha u llah's Tablet of the Lover and the Beloved found in Gleanings p319-322 . I sit with the youh and sing along with them and then have them recite this Tablet or pasages from it . The music as you know touches them . So imagine if you will having listened to Bon Jovi sing " . . lay you down in a bed of roses .. ." and the kids are in touch with their hearts and one ot more of them begins in a heartfelt voice to say the following from this Tablet . " release yourselves , O hightingales of God from the thorns and brambles of wretchedness and misery ( booze and drugs) and wing your flight to the rose garden of unfading splendor ." . . " for whereas in days past every lover besought and searched after his Beloved , it is the Beloved Himself Who now is calling his lovers . ." Hear Me , ye mortal birds ! In the Rose Garden of changeless splendor a Flower hath begun to bloom , compared to which every other flower is but a thorn , and before the brightness of Whose Glory the very essence of beauty must pale and wither. Now listen to the song again and *see * yourself laying down in that bed of roses that is now the ""Rose Garden " of changeless splendor and * see* Baha u llah in feminine or masculine form appear before you call her / his lovers to the Beloved . Once upon that bed of roses hear the Beloved speaking and experience the joy and exhilaration of inhaling " .the fragrance of the incorruptible Flower " of breathing ". . the sweet savors of holiness " of obtaining ." . a portion of the perfume of celestial glory " of tasting " . . the abandonment of enraptures love " of surrendering ones " . . soul into the hands of the Beloved . The youth dont take lone to *see* the powerful erotic images asssociated with this sacred scripture . And this is what love of God is about. It is this real , it can be * tasted * and create amazing longing . There is a tension in the experience which there ought to be . Baha u lah continues . " The everlasting Candle shineth in its naked glory , Behold how it hath consumed every mortal veil . Let them ponder and feel this and then listen again to Him " O ye that thirst after Him ! Strip yourselves of every earthly affection, and hasten to embrace your Beloved . . . The Flower, thus far hidden from the sight of men, is unveiled to your eyes . In the open rasdiance of his glory He standeth before you . I should note that i have this thinh about the Divine Feminine and many of these metaphorical references refer to Her as well ( I happen to think it is Baha u lah's homage to Her and tell the youth such) After they settle in to the powerful spiritual eroticism of this Tablet i remind them again that this is Scripture . This means that these words of Baha ulah have thwe same status in the Faith as does the Bible to Christians and the Quran to Moslms . We get to discuss what is it Baha u llah is telling us about our relationship to God . We are they are in essence Houses of Worship - Dawning Places of the remembrance of God - and as such their being and their bodies are sacred , to be respected and honored . it does not take a genius to figure out the implications of that for gender violence for example . Your soul is the bed of roses in which the Beloved * desires * to know you . You may have alerady seen some of what I do with the HW's and the folks I call those great American mystics the Eagles . Then there is Sting and _ Fields of Gold _ . That has some rich resonance with some passages from the IQAN and the AQDAS which is , of course the land of the *Most Holy* . I like to ponder with them the fields of barley found in the land of the Most Holy . I can assure you that if your son were here and wanted to be in a band to teach the Faith that I and the mothers and fathers of Omaha would encourage it . BTW my 2nd son now 16 has a pony tail to just below his shoulder blades . warmest regards , Terry From firstname.lastname@example.orgSat Oct 21 01:04:39 1995 Date: Sat, 21 Oct 95 07:50:33+030 From: Don Peden To: email@example.com Subject: Bon jovi et al Dear Joan: We couldn't move to another community. We were pioneering in Africa at the time, and had left our oldest boys "in trust" with a community institution for their education. There was no possibility of education for them where we were, other than correspondence, which is what we resorted to in the end. We did write to our NSA, and the Universal House, and with respect. The wheels were slow in turning, but they did respond, and in a very dignified, healing way (at least for Don and I). However, the damage has been done. Our "wayward" son just had a black cloud on his face at the mention of the Baha'i Community, and did not want to read the letter at all. The NSA met with the community in question, did a lot of investigating, and did address the issue, apologized for the treatment of our son, and took corrective measures to ensure it was not a problem in future for others. We can ask no more....except for healing for our son in our prayers. Don and I are in "process". Thank you for your words of encouragement. Bev From firstname.lastname@example.orgSat Oct 21 18:44:44 1995 Date: Sat, 21 Oct 95 2:51:39 EDT From: Christopher Buck To: Stephen Johnson Cc: email@example.com Subject: Re: KI: Introductory Statements The beloved Guardian's description of the style of the Kitab-i-Iqan as *A model of Persian prose, of a style at once original, chaste and vigorous, and remarkably lucid, both cogent in argument and matchless in its irresistible eloquence,* appears to be based on Edward Granville Browne's description of the Iqan as *a work of great merit, VIGOROUS in STYLE, clear in ARGUMENT, COGENT in proof* (M. Momen [ed.], _E.G. Browne and the Baha'i Faith_, p. 254). Christopher Buck ********************************************************************** From firstname.lastname@example.orgSat Oct 21 18:46:29 1995 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 23:21:02 -0500 From: Mark Towfiq To: Baha'i Announce Subject: "Turning Point For All Nations" now available on the Web The new statement issued by the Baha'i International Community on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the United Nations, "Turning Point For All Nations", is now available at http://sunsite.unc.edu/Bahai/Texts/English/Turning-Point-For-All-Nations.html If you don't want to type all of that out, just go to http://sunsite.unc.edu/Bahai and click from there! Versions in French and Spanish are coming soon, and will be at the same URL, with "French" and "Spanish" substituted for "English". Please note that this site also has The Prosperity of Humankind statement in HTML as well. More BIC-related things will be coming soon...stay tuned! Allah-u-Abha, Mark From Dave10018@aol.comSat Oct 21 18:47:30 1995 Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 10:19:40 -0400 From: Dave10018@aol.com To: email@example.com, firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: Bon jovi et al Dear Bev, Your story brings many thoughts, including my own nine years away from the Baha'i Community, and my lifelong love of rock and roll despite community narrowness. Art, poetry are parodoxical spiritual avenues. I became a Baha'i because of an intuition that came to me while listening to "Turn!Turn!Turn!", song written by dear Communist Pete Seeger, as performed by the Byrds. However one conceptualizes "Cause" and "Community", whether one says that one should value individuals above ideas or says that one should look to one's own experience rather than one's neighbor's concept of what is proper, it comes to the same thing, that justice demands we use our own eyes and ears, (as in the Hidden Words) and we have suffered too long from hostile and superficial judgement of each other. Of course the Truth is reflected everywhere! People willing to use their own eyes and make connections are alwklays needed and apt to be attacked by people stuck in their own sanctimonious blindness. This is the kind of "mental test" many of us here have suffered from. I came back to the Faith because I realized my sense of something lacking in the Community was also a sense of where I might work to improve things. I find that many, many, are working with the same thought. I am confident as time goes on your sons will find the Community a more attractive and effective place to express their love for humanity and for music that jumps with rhythm and love and rage. love, david taylor(age 42) From email@example.comSat Oct 21 18:48:25 1995 Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 12:06:59 -0500 From: Carl Hawse To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Rock Music, Fundamentalism, Absurdity Glad to see the postings on the Rock music experience! One of the things I like about the Faith so much is its flexibility. It has the ability to accept a wide variety of individuals and cultures, with a few exceptions. It's hard for me to accept exclusionary fundamentalist attitudes where the primary instruction for dealing with people is love and acceptance. >From what I understand, the rules are like this: - set an example, but don't preach - lead, but don't force - if they just don't get it, show them respect and let them be - obeying the laws of the faith is (mostly) between God and believer - teach principles and the rules will emerge >From what I've read about the future of the Baha'i community, there is going to be an enormous transformation into a society which cannot be comprehended using current models. The general principles of societal operation will fundamentally change. And modern-day America is NOT the paradigm which will underlie the New World Order. It's part of the challenge of the U.S. Baha'i community to let go of this materialistic, factional, political, violent society and build something new. (I like that part, even though I'm not Baha'i!) Any situation in which Baha'is are saying "My religion is better than your religion" or "My faith is stronger than your faith" to chastise people for not living up to "Baha'i standards" is fundamentally wrong as I understand the principles of the Faith. I seem to recall somewhere that 'Abdul-Baha even encouraged some people to remain Christians because their spirituality in that faith was so strong. That's flexibility! When rules are too rigid, the rules start to become more important than principles. So people discuss the rules (like the Women on the House issue) and can get caught up in "legal" arguments. The discussion on Talisman went very well, and with enough detachment that nobody got hurt. Looks like that didn't happen in the persecution of rock-oriented teenagers. Regarding what the Faith permits: is there a general acceptance of rock music as a teaching tool for youth among the communities? Is youth alienation due to excessive rigidity of the Faith a perceived problem? Does the Faith frown upon such possibly non-dignified artforms as absurdity and surrealism? Is there a place for artforms with powerful yet grotesque imagery? Take, for example, a painting of a bloody and dismembered body in a desert--the blood seeping from the severed limbs spells "disunity" on the sands in several languages. What do you think? On a scale of one to four: Forbidden, Discouraged, Grudgingly Accepted, or Embraced? Or just disgusting... ------------------------------------ Carl Hawse email@example.com http://www.grapevine-sys.com/~carl ------------------------------------ From firstname.lastname@example.orgSat Oct 21 18:52:03 1995 Date: 21 Oct 95 14:45:06 EDT From: "Mary K. Radpour" <email@example.com> To: "\"[G. Brent Poirier]\"" Cc: Talisman Subject: Bahai Zen (fwd) Dear Brent, I was a little amused at how one thought can be transformed into another so easily....The story conveyed here is, I believe, not about Baha'u'llah, but about Abdu'l-Baha. The woman is Florence Breed Khan, who was told by Abdu'l-Baha something like that the best prayer for a good meal is a cookbook. Marzieh Gail tells this story in one of her books. And it is so fascinating that this story became a transition into Zen Buddhism. Cheers, Mary K From firstname.lastname@example.orgSat Oct 21 23:20:03 1995 Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 18:59:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Juan R Cole To: email@example.com Subject: wired world government >From an interview with Nicholas Negroponte, MIT Multimedia Lab, in the current issue of *Wired* magazine, p. 200: Q. You're on record as questioning the viability of government in a wired world. How do you see a stateless world working? NN: The state will shrink and expand at the same time. It will get smaller in order to be more local, with proximity and place playing a strong role. It will get larger in the sense of being global. I don't have a recipe for managing such a world, but its laws will have to be more global. Cyber-law is global law. JRIC: There is also an interesting discussion of the ways in which the implications of cyberspace may have been overblown, in the current *New Left Review.* cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan From firstname.lastname@example.orgSat Oct 21 23:20:22 1995 Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 12:56:47 +1100 From: Robert Johnston To: email@example.com Subject: Re: wired world government Re: >NN: The state will shrink and expand at the same time. It will get >smaller in order to be more local, with proximity and place playing a >strong role. It will get larger in the sense of being global. Such an interesting point. It seems to me that the sign of good governement (at any level, including personal) is the cultivation of both uniqueness and universality. Postmodernists tend to focus excessively on the local, modernists on the universal. The Faith has the balance. Robert.