Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 08:53:39 +1200
From: Robert Johnston <robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
To: Dave10018@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: pulp fiction
My dear quasipumpkinly friend david,
I saw it!
>all jokes are serious.
Yes: I have read these stories of ernest scholars approaching Zen monks to
discuss their dry knowledge and getting a sound whipping for their trouble,
& I think that is very funny too!
travoltingly
Robert
From cfarhoum@osf1.gmu.eduWed Nov 22 14:30:53 1995
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 13:44:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand <cfarhoum@osf1.gmu.edu>
To: Don Peden <dpeden@imul.com>
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Please do not trash. Re: Peace by 2000? What is that?
Dear Bev and friends, even if you are tempted to delete, please do read
on.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the subject, and i have certainly
gained insights by reading your posting.
i would however like to address a few points if i may, some for
clarification and others as comments.
1.The idea of PEACE BY THE YEAR 2000 is a concept that needs
to be explored. Some Baha'is assert that when Abdul'Baha said by the end
of the century he meant the gregorian calender, others say that is not
what he meant. Anyways, each has a right to their own interpretation i
guess since no body has yet pin pointed exactly what was meant by the comment
2.What do we mean by peace. In peace and conflict studies the
distinction is made between POSITIVE and NEGATIVE peace. Negative peace
being the end of violence, or something that is on paper ie. Cyprus,
whereas positive peace is when there is transformation at all levels of
society that lead to a lasting state of non-violence, usually implying a
transformation of the parties. Clearly, we are NOT going to achieve
positive peace in the next 4 years, but i think we may be on the way to
achieving negative peace and that is an accomplishment of sorts though it
does not stop the pain.
YOu are right that often in the West people tend to sit back and say
"yes, great, there is peace there now" without realizing the impact on the
local people, and believe me as a student of conflict analysis and
resolution i have to often point out to these people that things are a
lot more complicated than they may seem on the surface. Yes, what
happened in South Africa is great but to implement it will take years.
On the other hand, i DO NOT and CAN NOT lose the HOPE and OPTIMISM that i
feel in my heart because it may sound naive but IT IS WHAT GAVE ME THE
CONVICTION TO GO INTO THIS FIELD AND LEARN HOW MY IDEALISM CAN BE
INTEGRATED WITH A DEGREE OF REALISM AND TRANSLATE ITSELF INTO TRANSFORMATION.
Yes, there is corruption, hatred, betrayal, rape, violence etc in this
world, but there is also love, hope, compassion, forgiveness, mercy,
sacrifice etc. Thanks to the media we only hear of the former not the
latter. Did you know the father of one of the Palestinian men who
kidnapped and executed that young Israeli soldier last year recently got
together with the father of the slain soldier? What does it matter?
Well, both had lost a son, both felt pain. One was the father of the
violater the other the father of the victim, but what they shared was the
common feeling of loss and pain. They spoke because they do not want
other parents to feel their pain. THe media devoted two paragraphs to
this and right beside like a whole page on violent things. We need to
look at things not in isolation but hand in hand with their opposite.
3. THe healing message of the Faith. Yes, often Baha'is look at this in
a simplistic way, and it is not so. But, what i am trying to say is that
it is great to have these ideals, but if we do not get out of our little
communities and try to do something about what is going on around us what
is the good. I admire the Salvation Army. I see them in Toronto driving
around in their vans feeding, clothing sheltering the homeless. It is a
band-aid solution and gives temporary comfort, but it is better than
nothing. We should be more involved in our communities and think of ways
we can serve it not for the purpose of PROPAGATION necessarily as for the
purpose of SERVICE TO GOD BY SERVICE TO HUMANITY.
4. Yes, the headlines are depressing and every time i read about the 10
year old boys in Bosnia who had to dig their graves and then stand there
to be shot in it, i cringe. My Baha'i side says i do not, i can not
understand, my conflict resolution side says there is a long history
there that can not be forgotten so quickly and there are conflict
resolution mechanisms such as trak 2 and grass roots work that can get
there and start helping with the healing process and attempt to start a
reconciliation effort. (the institute where i study is exploring ways we
can get involved in the Balkans now that an settlement has been reached,
but we need to move quickly before it falls apart)
5. You speak of choices. i agree with you, but often i speak to people
who feel there are no choices because man is evil, aggressive, wicked,
blood thirsty. Wow, no wonder things can not change. Psychologically
speaking we normally live according to the images we are given, so call a
kid naughty and he will live up to it. maybe it is time for a change of
ATTITUDES in this area. Yes, man can be all those things but he can also
be compassionate, loving, forgiving etc. GIVE HIM A NEW IMAGE AS NOBLE
AND MAYBE HE WILL TRY TO LIVE UP TO IT.
6.You are right, you have to see suffering, and although i have seen
suffering it is perhaps not the same degree as you have experience. I am
young still, give me another 25 years and we will talk then. But
seriously, i was in Slovenia last year and i became friends with a young
girl who was at the refugee camps there . One night, she went to call
her mom in Sarajevo from the post office and i accompanied her there.
THere was a line of like 100 people waiting to call family and see how
they are. I stood there with Sonia for hours with tears in my eyes.
Finally i sat down and wrote a poem because i was so emotion laden. What
did i see in the eyes of the people there? a strange combination of PAIN
and HOPE. it was one of the most touching moments of my life. yes, i
have seen homeless people, sick with sores on their feet. What did i
do? Bought a package of bandages and forced a friend's socks off his
feet so i could give it to this man who was in pain and cold from the
Toronto weather. It was a temporary ban-aid solution but i think we all
felt better in our hearts. i felt his suffering and he felt my sympathy
and love. May not be much but it was also a very touching experience.
i guess this is the thing you speak of when you say you ask yourself if
there is more you could do. i used to carry the weight of the world on
my shoulders. If there was a murder somewhere, a war, a famine, it was
MY FAULT. i did not know why, it is just how i felt. But we can only
try to do the best we can with the resources we have. often our greatest
contribution to this world is just to be the BEST PERSON THAT WE CAN BE.
To polish our mirror and hope it reflects on others. THis is a very
noble thing to do. YOur polished mirror will lead to transformation of
someone else and so on and so on
7. UN conferences: One of the greatest problems with the UN is it has no
enforcing mechanism. But those conferences at least start dialogue and
that is a start.
8. What is missing in the picture of the man you speak of being hit by a
car? Compassion and value of human life. in '89 i was in England
visiting family. I went into London one day for sightseeing. As i got
off the train, i saw a man lying on the bench gripping his heart with
tears in his eyes and reaching out for help. Hundreds of people walked
by and did nothing. As if he was invisible!! i could not believe it.
How could they be like this, so uncaring and cold? All i could remember
is what you see on tv. He was having a heartattack. Loosen the tie,
open his shirt and get help. So, they stopped the train and requested
assistance. A nurse ememrged, an ambulance was called and i hope he made
it, but i will never forget the image of this man gripping his heart,
reaching out with tears in his eyes and people just rushing by. Just as
i a writing this i have tears in my eyes as i did that day, because it
opened up my naive eyes that no, not everyone cares about others in this
world. sigh!
9.No sanctuaries: Yes, inner peace is certainly key to outer peace in
our relations with others etc.
Phew. Sorry to ramble on so. I thank you again for sharing your baggage
with us. here i went and did the same. i understand your pain when you
see suffering and "have to drive by". God do i know that feeling. But
my only consolation is to immerse myself in my studies and hope that one
day equipped with the knowledge gained from the writings and the
knowledge gained by my academic pursuits, i can make a small small
difference in this big big world.
Warmest love and regards,
Your sister in service.
Cheshmak Farhoumand
From derekmc@ix.netcom.comWed Nov 22 23:19:24 1995
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 11:51:24 -0800
From: DEREK COCKSHUT <derekmc@ix.netcom.com>
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: Ahmad's theory,Dickie's theory and now The Kepare theory.
More for the the new souls on Talisman
Today I had the opportunity of visiting in Capitola a beautiful seaside
village near Bosch. In the Village is
the Hair Salon Kepare's , Marsha ' Hobbs' Gilpatrick and my wife Sima
'Spray with hose pipe' <Gentle
Talismanians will remember when I wished to converse with the Lady
regarding the spiritual destiny of the
Planet to be discussed at the Mystics Conference, she insisted watering
her newly planted seedlings was
more important and soaked me because I wished to engage her in
meaningful conversation. I have not
forgotten the total lack of support from such types as Langness ,Cole
,Scholl , Barer and others over that
matter> respective Hairdressers work at Kepare's. I shared with them
Dickie's theory. it turns out the Lady
hairdressers have a deeper and more profound understanding of the real
situation. Much to my surprise I
was told that before the'Fall',men had the babies.Hence the loss of
the jolly old ribs, but after all that
'Sin'< what is sin by the way Burl?>, Men started to complain it hurt
too much <child bearing that is>. God
and the Ladies got so fed up with all the whining that the Ladies
decided to have the children instead.Now
the Ladies were already doing everything else anyway and Men promised
to find a new and helpful role if
they didn't have to have the babies.One of my wife's theories < she
has several > and the Kepare
Hairdressers is that Men's only use is to get heavy items down from
high shelves and take out the Trash.
Well it turns out we have not done a very good job of finding a new
role : playing warriors and killing
each other and anybody else in the way does not get any
cookies<biscuits>.or brownie points. Sandie and
Debbie said that they would match their Shears with the chaps at
Dickie's anytime.Personally I would not
mess with them. As I reflected on the sun shining on the windows and
the pleasant relaxing atmosphere,
sipping a Caffee Latte as the Ladies had their hair coiffured. I
thought of Dickie's Barber's shop in Walla
Walla, sawdust and spittoons, razors and short back and sides, with no
doubt the ancient male ritual of boil
lancing. I was going to ask them about Ahmad's theory but the gleam in
my wife's eye , made me be
discreet. I wonder if Burl could combine all three theories into one so
that we can be united on this.
I did ask Sherman for his views ,he was busy trying to do Breakfast
with a gopher to give us of his
wisdom.Except he did say nobody can tickle or cuddle him like the
ladies. Wild Pete just threw more nuts
at me, his Lady friend Unruly Rita also joined in, the deck of the
Bookshop/Cafe looks like a disaster
area. We have a small family of Wild Boar on campus, they were too busy
to offer any ideas, eating apples
and laughing over the mock boar hunt this summer. I shall be posting
about incident later suffice it to
say,it involves grown men falling and breaking water mains in the
middle of the night and getting soaking
wet.Big Macho men jumping into each others arms in fright much to the
amazement of Mr and Mrs Wild
Boar. Kindest Regards Derek Cockshut.
From 72110.2126@compuserve.comWed Nov 22 23:23:45 1995
Date: 22 Nov 95 15:06:17 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To: JRCole@umich.edu
Subject: Appeal Copies
20 November 1995
The Universal House of Justice
The Baha'i World Center
Haifa, Israel
c/o Secretariat@BWC.org
Dear Esteemed Members of the Supreme Body,
Please accept my humble apologies for intruding upon the precious
deliberative time you must give to matters of much more import than
the following one. Also, I extend my most sincere fealty and love
to the Supreme Body, and want you to know that whatever direction
and advice you decide to give in the appeal herein I intend to
follow explicitly.
Five days ago I received the enclosed letter from the U.S. National
Spiritual Assembly, in which they state that I am "obligated to
post a correction" to an E-mail message I wrote to an electronic
discussion group on the Internet (Talisman) on October 1. The
letter states that if I do not post a retraction within two weeks,
my administrative rights will be in jeopardy. I am writing to
appeal this decision. Normally, as called upon in your
Constitution, I would lodge such an appeal through my National
Assembly, but because their deadline of November 28 makes this an
urgent matter, I am simultaneously forwarding the appeal to both
the NSA and the Universal House of Justice.
I feel this decision contravenes the principle of the sacrosanct
nature of the believer's conscience, as outlined in the quote
below, taken from Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities, pp.
15.2-15.3:
"At one extreme is the case of a believer who is no longer
able to rectify the wrong he has committed--for example when
he has lost his voting rights for marrying without parental
consent and the parents have since died--in such a case the
factor of repentance is particularly important. At the other
extreme is the case of a believer who has been deprived of his
voting rights because the Assembly is convinced by the
evidence that he was guilty of the offense, but who maintains
that, in spite of all appearances to the contrary, he is
innocent. There is no requirement that such a believer admit
guilt before the voting rights can be restored. The believer
must, however, comply with the Assembly's instructions as to
his behavior. In between these extremes are many cases where
the very rectifying of the error can be held to constitute
repentance."
The National Spiritual Assembly has demanded that I retract a
statement to the effect that the Secretary-General of the National
Spiritual Assembly removed my right to pilgrimage in 1988.
However, I continue to believe that the Secretary-General took this
action himself, and that it was later ratified by the National
Spiritual Assembly. Consequently, in their letter to me of
November 8, the NSA obliges me to publicly state something I
believe to be false in order to retain my administrative rights.
Surely, that cannot be an action that any Baha'i Assembly could
condone, for if the clearly-stated principle above applies after
the fact of removal of administrative rights, certainly it applies
as a condition of keeping those same rights.
I believe that the Secretary-General of the National Spiritual
Assembly took this action, without consultation with the other
members of the NSA, because of the following: At the time I
learned of the removal of my pilgrimage rights, Richard Betts, at
whose home in Portugal I was staying while en route to Haifa,
personally called other members of the U.S. NSA and was told that
they knew nothing of the decision. When I appealed the decision of
the National Spiritual Assembly, which forbade me from continuing
my travel to Haifa, The Universal House of Justice overturned it
and allowed me to come to the Holy Land for a three-day visit.
Also, your letter to Mr. Payam Afsharian of 9 September 1992
indicates that the Universal House of Justice did not remove the
pilgrimage rights of the four editors of Dialogue magazine.
Unfortunately, I cannot prove or disprove the assertion that my
right to pilgrimage was removed by both the NSA and the Universal
House of Justice, because I have never seen the relevant documents
that detail the reasons for such removal. I was promised a
letter of explanation when the Secretary-General cabled and then
telephoned me in Portugal en route to Haifa in 1988, but that
letter never came. Because of this confusion, I would respectfully
request that the Universal House of Justice allow me to see any
documents that bear on the case of my pilgrimage rights, just as I
have requested them from the National Spiritual Assembly. If the
National Spiritual Assembly provides me with documentation showing
that the Universal House of Justice removed my right to pilgrimage,
or if the Universal House of Justice informs me that this is the
case, I will certainly withdraw this appeal and immediately issue
the retraction the NSA has directed me to make.
Also, I was not aware that saying something on an Internet forum
could, in any way, jeopardize one's administrative rights. I
understand the Supreme Body has made it clear on several occasions
that speech on such fora is not subject to review.
Again, I sincerely regret taking up the time and energy of the
Supreme Body with this relatively small matter. However, because
it involves what I perceive as an injustice and a profound test of
personal conscience, I do not see how I can do otherwise.
With deepest love,
David Langness
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[Attachment 1 -- copy of my response follows:]
15 November 1995
The National Spiritual Assembly of
The Baha'is of the United States
National Baha'i Center
Wilmette, IL 60091
Dear Co-workers,
I was dismayed and taken aback by your letter of November 8, which
I received on November 14, regarding a posting I sent to the
Talisman Internet network, and would like very much to get to the
bottom of this matter as soon as possible. And I apologize in
advance for anything I may have said that could possibly be
interpreted as disrespect or as undermining the authority of the
National Spiritual Assembly, which I would never knowingly do.
However, I lack the resources to respond to your requirement for a
correction, since I do not keep records of my outgoing
correspondence to Talisman. Would you be so kind as to forward to
me the posting in question? I can certainly address your concerns
as soon as I have the posting in my possession.
I am also concerned that the posting may have been altered in some
way before it reached you. This kind of E-mail alteration has
become common, as pointed out in the front-page article that
coincidentally appeared in the Los Angeles Times this morning,
which I have enclosed. I have no idea who would do such a thing,
but I need to carefully examine the post to make sure the words you
have received are indeed mine.
I would also respectfully request copies of any National Spiritual
Assembly correspondence regarding me and/or the withdrawal of my
pilgrimage rights that took place during the period in question, on
or around the month of May, 1988. These copies will allow me to
understand what actually did transpire during that period,
something I have never fully comprehended, and would be
indispensable in helping me craft the proper response.
Accordingly, I would like to request an extension of your two-week
deadline until after I have received said materials.
While I have on occasion been critical of the National Spiritual
Assembly's policies, I have never "attack"[ed] any Baha'i
institution, nor would I dream of doing so. I have always obeyed
the National Spiritual Assembly explicitly, and cannot imagine
doing otherwise. And you should know that I have read carefully,
over and over, the Universal House of Justice's message on
individual rights and freedoms, and will happily do so again at
your request. I am under the impression from my repeated readings
of that document that the right of the individual to set forth his
views is protected within the Faith.
Please be assured that the deep love I "profess to hold for
Baha'u'llah and His Cause" is in fact real, not professed.
I ask all nine of you in the National Spiritual Assembly's role as
the loving father of the community to forgive me my shortcomings,
of which there are many.
Sincerely,
David Langness
cc: The Universal House of Justice
The Continental Board of Counselors for the Americas
Copyright 1995 David Langness
This letter has been copyrighted to prevent its use without the
express permission of the author.
This letter has been transmitted electronically to USNSA@usbnc.org.
A hard copy transmission VIA registered mail will follow.
From dpeden@imul.comWed Nov 22 23:23:57 1995
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 95 23:27:56+030
From: Don Peden <dpeden@imul.com>
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT <DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu>
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Peace by 2000? What is that!
Dear Quanta:
Thanks for your reply. You are right. A political peace is such a hollow
thing. There is a saying here in Africa, that when the Elephants fight, the
grass is crushed. I see a lot of crushed grass. You don't have to come
here, however, to see crushed grass. This I know. Thanks for being one of
the ones to see it. There is a lot in North America, and more will be
crushed and cut down before there is any meaningful peace. My comment about
the armchair theorists was not meant to imply that there is no suffering in
U.S. or any other country, or that people there are insensitive to it. I
know better. Sometimes I have a bad day, and I don't think before I put my
mouth in gear. I guess I just get frustrated sometimes, and don't know
where to put it. I'm sure I'm not alone.
I don't have much faith in politics, teaching plans, number games, or any of
the other jargon or intellectual jousting that we humans engage in being a
cause of peace. Is it reasonable to expect a learned "pattern of
behaviour" to be the source of real change. People search for answers
because the environment is right for them to be creative in their
thinking...they come up with solutions to problems in environments of
encouragement and spiritual growth. Until we try and create an environment
of the heart and become all that we can be spiritually, peace just isn't
possible. You can't legislate thinking, feeling or compassion. It can't be
faked. Until there is real change in the hearts of people, change, the kind
we might describe as "peace" is still a long way off. Anything less falls
short.
I remember hearing friends of mine say how the world will end in such and
such a year, and then the year would pass, and then they would come up with
an excuse why it didn't happen, and a new year of prediction, and so on and
so on. Will Baha'is be the same, waiting for Peace in the year 2000?
I don't have much empathy for the suffering I witness. How could I when I
do not know what it is to personally suffer the way they have? That is what
I meant when I said that they had the right to approach Baha'u'llah in his
suffering, not me. Compassion? Yes, I think I do feel compassion...also a
frustration at not being able to alieviate the suffering I witness. There
is too much. All I can do is whatever I can do each day, and in each
circumstance. It will never be enough, but it is something. It has never
particularly mattered to me whether people I help are Baha'is or not. It is
irrelevant.
What will give me hope for peace are people who do what they can, where ever
they can, in whatever manner open to them to respond with love and
compassion to suffering, and to try and make a difference with their
lives...not necessarily their wallets. I don't care if they carry the name
Baha'i or not. Then, perhaps we can talk about peace. It is what the
teachings of Baha'u'llah have brought. This is the medicine, not an
administrative system, or any other social remedies we think we might
understand. They are mere empty forms without the animating spirit of love
and compassion.
I have a lot to learn, which I believe is why I am here. I have learned so
much in Africa, it is what has generated the love I feel for people here.
It is why I am grateful. I have learned the many strengths I have, and try
and use them with wisdom.
Like women who believe themselves victims in North America and other places,
the same attitudes prevail here. Women blame themselves for being victims,
thinking that they did not "behave", and were therefore punished. The
church often adds to this by telling them that they suffer because they are
sinners, it is a guilt trip BIG TIME! People in poverty both men and women,
just accept their lot, and pray that their luck will change. They have their
own ways of exerting feelings of power over others. And they do.
We don't have sufficient systems in the faith for putting our compassion
into practice. Baha'is often say, "but we don't have the resources...we
have to teach to get the resources so we can do something." Sorry, I don't
accept that. This is not a time for linear thinking. These things must
happen simultaneously. Everyone, and every community, can do something, no
matter how small, and it can start right at home. I guess that is what
frustrates me. It's all fine to talk about the "big picture", but what
about the person sitting next to us? Aren't they part of that picture?
I like salt and pepper, thank you. Although I don't go intentionally
looking for them, I accept wounds if they are serving a meaningful
purpose...if they can help me to be kinder, have more humility, glean an
awareness, or to be of service to someone, great. I'll never be able to
close my eyes to the suffering I see...I also can't take over their pain.
Wounded heart? You bet, but at least it bleeds. For this I am grateful. I
would worry if it was pierced and nothing came out.
By the way, I enjoy your poetry. There hasn't been any lately, and I do
miss it.
Love,
Bev.
>Is that me speaking in you? I live in US and do not envy me.
>I know of many converted american sisters in our Faith who have been
>so brutalized by unspeakable horrors from childhood on,
>that one even have the tendency to stab herself out of anger.
>I know of some who were victims of multiple crimes, rape,
>incest, sexual harassment, molestation who either turn their
>anger inward or outward to society. This is no heaven my dear.
>They find no comfort from their fellow believers, for they are
>ashamed of being the victims of these horrors and blame
>themselves. Why did I deserve this? is their painful question.
>I believe it is more painful to suffer in a country that prides
>itself with having so much of everything. It is like suffering
>of Sisyphus of Tantalus without deserving their punishment.
>
>But, I hear and feel your pain and those of others as well.
>Political peace does not have a trickling down effect on the
>millions of innocent people, yet. Think of the champagne
>glass, the top has the most and the bottom practically nothing.
>Trickling down is not enough!
>
>Baha'is are in a state of empathy, not compassion. I have not seen any
descripti
>on
> in the prayers which says "O Thou Most Empathizer!" It is always "The Most
Compassionate!"
>Do we understand the difference? In my experiences, NO!!
>This is what I have been told by two young men from India and
>Costa Rica who have relatives and close associates as Baha'is,
>"Baha'is are good at intellectual stuff, but I don't see them
>full of love and compassion for others". Although, they like
>the "ideas" they decided to become Christians instead, where
>they found more caring and a place where they also could
>systematically and individually put their compassion to work.
>
>I am sorry, if I added more salt and pepper to your wounded heart.
>Please forgive me.
>
>lovingly,
>quanta...(*_*)
>
>
>
From jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.eduWed Nov 22 23:24:22 1995
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 15:38:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Joan Jensen <jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
To: SFotos@eworld.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: planes of discourse
On Tue, 21 Nov 1995 SFotos@eworld.com wrote:
> The virtues of the far are the sins of the near.
> Does anyone know the source? This statement would imply a developmental
> continuum where similar validity options exists.
Dear Sandy,
In _Some Answered Questions_, page 126, 'Abdu'l-Baha states:
"The good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the Near Ones."
Looking at this quotation in context, I also agree that it supports
Juan's thesis on standpoint epistemology.
This is the essay where 'Abdu'-Baha is asked the question:
"What is the truth of the story of Adam, and His eating of the fruit
of the tree?" (running from page 122-126). In the concluding paragraph
to this essay, 'Abdu'l-Baha says:
".... Adam is the spirit of Adam, and Eve is His soul: the
tree is the human world, and the serpent is that attachment
to this world which constitutes sin, and which has infected
the descendants of Adam. Christ by His holy breezes saved
men from this attachment and freed them from this sin. The
sin in Adam is relative to His position. Although from this
attachment there proceed results, nevertheless, attachment
to the earthly world, in relation to attachment to the
spiritual world, is considered as a sin. The good deeds of
the righteous are the sins of the Near Ones. This is
established. So bodily power is not only defective in
relation to spiritual power; it is weakness in comparison.
In the same way, physical life, in comparison with eternal
life in the Kingdom, is considered as death. So Christ
called the physical life death, and said: "Let the dead
bury their dead." (Matthew 8:22). Though those souls
possessed physical life, yet in His eyes that life was death.
This one of the meanings of the bibilical story of
Adam. Reflect until you discover the others.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Joan Jensen
Baltimore, Maryland USA
<jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
*******************************************************************
"...love and affinity are the fruits of a gentle disposition,
a pure nature and praiseworthy character..."
Selected Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 287
*******************************************************************
From burlb@bmi.netWed Nov 22 23:24:41 1995
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 95 12:01 PST
From: Burl Barer <burlb@bmi.net>
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Peace by 2000
I find the following quote from the Universal House of Justice, dated May
19th, 1994, of paramount importance:
"At this exact time in history when the peoples of the world are weighed
down with soul-crushing difficulties and the shadow of despair threatens to
eclipse the light of hope, there must be revived among the individual
believers a sense of mission, a feeling of empowerment to minister to the
urgent need of humanity for guidance and thus to win victories for the Faith
in their own sphere of life. The community as a whole should be involved in
efforts to resolve such issues."
This is really, as Frank Zappa would say, "the crux of the bisquit" -- the
call is to transform ourselves and our communities to the point of
consecrated and continued action.
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
From dpeden@imul.comWed Nov 22 23:24:50 1995
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 95 23:48:05+030
From: Don Peden <dpeden@imul.com>
To: Cheshmak A Farhoumand <cfarhoum@osf1.gmu.edu>
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Peace 2000
Dear Cheshmak:
Thank you for your comments. From what I am hearing you say, there is good
basis for talk about peace. I have no doubt that if there is a "front line"
in the push for peace, you will be on it. I feel happy about that.
I do look forward to your comments. And, yes, you are right. Many people,
including myself, really don't understand all the implications of what
current events mean. It sounds good, but man! Is there a long road to haul
before we have peace! By saying Mandela is now president, you sure don't
sweep years of racial hatred and resentment under the carpet. We have
access to South African television, and there are a few programs which look
at events and concerns in South Africa. They show a fair amount of both
positive and negative concerns. It is very interesting to see what kind of
community dynamics are now starting to emerge. Some of it is positive, some
of it is pretty scary stuff.
Like you, it is the small, everyday gestures and outreachings which keep me
going. Thanks for sharing yours...
Love,
Bev.
P.S. Rather than delete, I think I'd rather study your comments further.
From belove@sover.netWed Nov 22 23:26:05 1995
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 95 15:03:37 PST
From: belove@sover.net
To: "Mark A. Foster" <mfoster@tyrell.net>, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Both/and thinking
On Wed, 22 Nov 1995 08:35:46 -0600 (CST) Mark A. Foster wrote:
> Your assumption seems to be that Juan's model is the correct
one,
>and that anyone who would oppose it must have a hidden motivation.
In my
>case, that is certainly not the case. However, if I have
misrepresented
>a particular position, which was certainly not my intention, I
welcome
>corrections.
>
Actually, Mark, I do think your model is a possible one. But I think
it complicates matters so much that I don't understand why you like
it. I think the best model is one that clarifies and that's you
farthest fastest. But , as my signature says, models can oversimplify
and do violence to that which they propose to map.
So I assume that, if you prefer a model which, by comparison, to me,
seems cumbersome and lacks the ability to clarify , then you must be
holding onto it in order to protect a an important nuance, something
that would otherwise be lost or not mapped.
Rather than call that a "hidden motivation" I would call it a "not
yet articulated reason." Hence my question. This is not an ad
hominem arguement. It is an attempt to on my part to clarify, for my
self your position. Although, I do admit that from my limited
understanding, I can't see why you prefer what you prefer.
> What I think should be obvious is that Baha'i academics do not
agree
>on these matters. There is no *consensus* on this, and many other,
>issues - which, it seems to me, has sometimes been assumed on this
>forum. Actually, the only thing that I "want to gain intellectually"
is
>a fuller sharing of diverse perspectives. I believe that we are
taught
>that it is only "by the clash of differing opinions" that truth is
>revealed.
>
>B >this both/and business and this nesting of heirarchies undoes the
>B >whole concept of standpoint epistemology and also undoes the idea
of
>B >separate language games or separate semiotics. I don't find any
>B >virtue in it.
>
> As I see it, we are only talking about words. Knowledge is not
>fixed, and, honestly, I doubt that I have the ability to undermine
>anything. My desire is to share my own perspectives on reality. Are
you
>suggesting that we should all simply accept whatever views are put
>forward on Talisman without questioning them?
No, Mark, I really think we are talkingabout more than "only"
"words." I think we are in disagreement over conceptual schema. And
it really is possible, with one conceptual schema to undermine, undo,
or make invisible important distinctions in another.
>B >Even when you have a nested heirarchies of language games, as in
>B >geometries and mathematics, you still have local languages in
which
>B >statements true in one language (parallel lines never meet) are
>B >untrue in another language (Parallel lines on a sphere may either
>B >meet or not meet depending on their size relative to that of the
>B >equator).
>
> Yes. That is true, which is why I said that we need to develop a
new
>discourse which will integrate all of these approaches. To me, it is
an
>essential element of the Baha'i metaphysic of unity in diversity.
Yes, here , at the close, we do agree. Juan, seems to be saying that
Baha'ullah's description of standpoint epistemology might provide the
framework for a discourse to integrate all these approaches.
The difficulty you and I seem to be having in talking about this
material is a difficulty of logical typing. We are talking to each
other at separate logical levels of discourse.
Well, enough for a coffee break. I am enjoying this and hope you are
as well
Philip
>
>Warm greetings to you,
From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzWed Nov 22 23:26:18 1995
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 10:14:34 +1200
From: Robert Johnston <robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
To: belove@sover.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Socrates hitched his wagon to a Star
Dear Philip,
>But Chris is right within a certain language game or semiotic. Robert
>in another.
Unlike Socrates, who hitched his wagon to a Star, the sophists were
relativists. They were different. The sophists couldn't understand
Socrates. Thus he was put to death.
In my view, then, it it possible to be quite simply wrong about things.
Robert.
From richs@microsoft.comWed Nov 22 23:26:30 1995
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 12:26:06 -0800
From: richs@microsoft.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu, derekmc@ix.netcom.com
Subject: RE: Fwd: Ahmad's Theory/Dickie's Theory
Good Grief! Now we're back at the Barber Shop. To
quote Charlie Brown, "Arrrgh!"
This would be much more tolerable if I weren't in
such dire need of a haircut.
Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut (who must go fulfill his promise to
scrub the floors before our guests appear for
Thanksgiving dinner)
From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzWed Nov 22 23:26:47 1995
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 10:26:36 +1200
From: Robert Johnston <robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
To: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Socrates
Dear John.
>May I now claim vindication on the Socrates issue? They cited the same
>secondary sources as I was using.
(1) Sir, methinks your plea for vindication lacks adequate articulation!
(2) If you are suggesting that the letter did not uphold the view that
Socrates went to the Holy Land, then I believe you are manifestly mistaken.
The letter clearly upheld the view that Socrates went. It was also stated
that the actual source (historical and apart from intuitive insight) of
'Abdu'l-Baha's knowledge of this fact was not known.
Robert.
From derekmc@ix.netcom.comWed Nov 22 23:27:07 1995
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 13:41:27 -0800
From: DEREK COCKSHUT <derekmc@ix.netcom.com>
To: burlb@bmi.net
Subject: Private messages and Hose,
My dear Burl
I am very confused how is it our private E;Mails are getting on to Talisman and to
Linda ? We did discuss by phone , fax and E'Mail HOSE . but that was between you
and I . It seems to me powerful , influential and secret forces are at work here . I
mean when two chaps private nay sacred words are being spied on what are we to do.
The launch of HOSE could be ruined if the news continues to get out like this. As we
both said this would be bigger than the Beatles reunion and Album release .
I notice that Linda is still trying to convince everyone that nothing happened in jolly
old Philly. I heard there was several heart problems after her activities at the Cassock
twirling contest . I mean flashing red and black lace at those Archbishops drove them
wild it did . Caused a near riot especially when the Dominican Abbot demanded the
contestants do cartwheels after Linda's performance , no wonder she got
disqualified. In regard to what were John and Juan doing in Ann Arbor . Well young
lady I would tell her they , as good academic historians will do , carried out a serious
field dig on the relationship of leather to the enfoldment of civilization in the
Mesozoic era . As you may know Burl this is vital in understanding the development
of Grecian Philosophy especially in how it relates to Kranese in both language and
literature . Further to that Juan's young female leather clad twins of ABS fame , well
acquainted with you my dear friend , came along to assist in giving a modern slant
on this research . Apparently John due to this has become a real hero in his son's
eyes who now does want to be just like Dad and good old uncle Juan . He keeps
muttering something about Babes and Academia is this the name of Linda's
forthcoming book ? So I believe it was a totally unwarranted attack on the integrity of
dear John our steamed list owner and his dear friend and ours in suppression Juan .
To imagine they would not be anything else but their normal boring , dull , taciturn
, stoic and recusant selves is unthinkable . Sherman is most concerned about John and
not all concerned about Ahmad . The message from Sherman for Ahmad is that the
Ladies always get you in the end and the best therapy to overcome the Seed of
Creation is two gophers and a quail a day. I will post that one later on Talisman .
Linda would have won by the way the arm wrestling contest but she got into a
shouting match with a Southern Baptists over the Pope and lost her concentration .
So Burl how are our private messages going out on Talisman.
Warmest Regards
Derek
From mfoster@tyrell.netWed Nov 22 23:28:43 1995
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 17:24:04 -0600 (CST)
From: "Mark A. Foster" <mfoster@tyrell.net>
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Both/and thinking
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi, Philip -
Thanks for your message. ;-)
You wrote:
B >Actually, Mark, I do think your model is a possible one. But I think
B >it complicates matters so much that I don't understand why you like
B >it. I think the best model is one that clarifies and that's you
B >farthest fastest. But , as my signature says, models can oversimplify
B >and do violence to that which they propose to map.
How do you think that it complicate matters? To my understanding,
the "both-and" approach is an extention of what I have called the Baha'i
metaphysic of unity in diversity. If we can lift up our visions to see
with God's eyes (i.e., from the POV of the divine teachings), we will, I
think, begin to perceive all created things as emanations from the
Manifestation of the Unity of God. To me, that is the essence of
simplicity.
While one's vision will differ relative to one's vantage point,
since those on a higher level can see that which lies below (but not the
other way around), if we train our human spirits, through the assistance
of the spirit of faith, to see existence from the overall perspective (a
God's-eye viewpoint), then everything else will fall into place. To me,
it is an important distinction, since it potentially impacts one's
assumptive framework and whether one attempts to compartmentalize the
various levels of perception.
However, the approach I have suggested will, I think, require more
critical thought. It assumes that there are certain features of modern
science, and scholarship in all areas (especially the social and
behavioral sciences) which require modification. Being at the leading
edge of a revolution in "normal science" (Kuhn) is never easy.
B >So I assume that, if you prefer a model which, by comparison, to me,
B >seems cumbersome and lacks the ability to clarify , then you must be
B >holding onto it in order to protect a an important nuance, something
B >that would otherwise be lost or not mapped.
I don't think that it is cumbersome - only challenging. It is almost
always *easier* not to go against the tide, so to speak. However, I feel
that Baha'is are being asked to challenge traditional ways of doing
things and *not to necessarily* accept the popular wisdom.
B >Rather than call that a "hidden motivation" I would call it a "not
B >yet articulated reason." Hence my question. This is not an ad
B >hominem arguement. It is an attempt to on my part to clarify, for my
B >self your position. Although, I do admit that from my limited
B >understanding, I can't see why you prefer what you prefer.
In all honesty, my reason is to do what I believe my Lord requires
of me. That is it. I feel that we have been called by the Master, the
Guardian, and the Universal House of Justice to attempt spiritual
revolutions in our respective fields - especially in academic ones.
Although I have, with only one exception (and that was outside of
class) never mentioned that I am a Baha'i to any of my students (while
they were my students), I *do* express my general perspective on
reality. For instance, I will, in my social problems class, sometimes
refer to the need for social synthesis, and sometimes ask my students to
come up with ways of creatively resolving social problems (especially
those which involve oppression of some sort) using the principle of
unity in diversity.
B >No, Mark, I really think we are talking about more than "only"
B >"words." I think we are in disagreement over conceptual schema. And
B >it really is possible, with one conceptual schema to undermine, undo,
B >or make invisible important distinctions in another.
OK. But, IMV, conceptual schema are word maps. From my perspective,
most present-day theories (at least in my field) are inadequate.
Although I find more that is of use in structuralism, Marxism, and
integralism (Pitirim Sorokin) than in some other analytical models, I
recognize the deficiencies of those frameworks as well.
B >The difficulty you and I seem to be having in talking about this
B >material is a difficulty of logical typing. We are talking to each
B >other at separate logical levels of discourse.
I agree, Philip. We are speaking from somewhat different
standpoints. However, I think that even this difficulty can, with
patience, be overcome.
B >Well, enough for a coffee break. I am enjoying this and hope you are
B >as well
Yes. Very much, Philip. Tnx <g>.
With loving regards to you,
Mark
From derekmc@ix.netcom.comWed Nov 22 23:28:53 1995
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 15:47:55 -0800
From: DEREK COCKSHUT <derekmc@ix.netcom.com>
To: ahmada@acsusn.acsu.edu.au
Subject: Effects on Sherman an answer for Ahmad
We have noted the various comments of our dear hidden friend Ahmad. I am ordered
by Sherman to inform you you need to try his famous recipe yourself. As far Ladies
are concerned I am on December 8th through the 10th conducting a class on
Relationships here at the Bosch Baha'i School in Santa Cruz California . So far the
Ladies out number the men by 6.5 to 1. 28 people enrolled so far . So Ahmad come to
Bosch that weekend there are 23 lovely ladies at least in the class I am running .
Normally bookings increase by 50% over the last 2 weeks . So we should have a
group of at least 42 people , 34 being Ladies . So desperate unmarried Ahmad come to
the jolly old USA for the weekend
I promise as your teacher not to reveal your true identity as the 'villainous scounderel'
Ahmad 'The Seed' Annis to the class .You wiil of course as is required of all my
students if you find someone you wish to marry have to obtain my consent, once you
have been a student of mine.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzWed Nov 22 23:35:11 1995
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 14:44:36 -0900
From: Robert Johnston <robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT <DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu>, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: intuition, compassion, "intellectual stuff"...
talismaidenic Quanta wrote:
>Baha'is are in a state of empathy, not compassion. I have not seen any
>description
> in the prayers which says "O Thou Most Empathizer!" It is always "The
>Most Compassionate!"
>Do we understand the difference? In my experiences, NO!!
>This is what I have been told by two young men from India and
>Costa Rica who have relatives and close associates as Baha'is,
>"Baha'is are good at intellectual stuff, but I don't see them
>full of love and compassion for others". Although, they like
>the "ideas" they decided to become Christians instead, where
>they found more caring and a place where they also could
>systematically and individually put their compassion to work.
Some notes:
(1) The body of Christendom wasn't torn apart by an excess of compassion.
(That's what I would tell these two young men!)
(2) Is it not possible that there is a shorter distance between empathy and
compassion than there is between "intellectual stuff" and empathy..?
However, it would seem to me that if this is clearly true it may be only
because "intellectual stuff" is much less than a genuinely scientific
presence.
(3) Should we not strive to acquire intelligent and understanding hearts?
Do you not think we should try to realise the true unity science and
love..?
(4) True empathy is wonderously scientific, entailing complete
identification with the object of perception. Without this kind of
understanding how is genuine compassion possible?
love,
Robert.
From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzWed Nov 22 23:35:20 1995
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 14:52:45 -0900
From: Robert Johnston <robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT <DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu>, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: trumatic effects on Sherman
Ffolks,
For a uniquely funny and poignant letter I highly recommend Quanta's
reponse to Ahmad... [David: it is straight from William Saroyan or V.S.
Naipaul] It is a beautiful letter, and I wish I could read more like it.
Robert.
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 14:18:54 -0800
From: an assistant to the auxiliary board
To: jrcole@umich.edu
Subject: RE: Re: Baha'i Bill of Rights/criminal code
Dear Juan,
From: Juan R Cole[SMTP:jrcole@umich.edu]
>Basically, as things now stand no Baha'i can ever know when they might be
>breaking the law. For all I know, it may be illegal to complain about
>the lack of codified human rights law in the Faith, or it may be illegal
>to say that NSAs have in some instances acted arbitrarily and have not
>been overturned by the House. (This is certainly the case, and I can
>document it if challenged; the question is whether I can say it).
I respectfully submit that _now_ is the time for you to
produce that objective definition by which we might
determine that a decision has been arbitrary and for
which I've asked numerous times. Without that
definition, your conclusion that any decision is, indeed,
arbitrary is itself an arbitrary decision.
If the best you can do is pit your own arbitrary
conclusions against those of a National Spiritual
Assembly, then it's not good enough.
Secondly, I think you've missed a possibility: that an
Assembly can make the right decision for the wrong
reasons. Such a case is likely to produce a strong letter
from the Universal House of Justice to the Assembly, but
not a change in the status of the individual's voting rights.
Unlike the US system of governance, a technical failure
on the part of a lower institution does not automatically
produce a reversal of that institution's decision.
I am _very_ strongly inclined to believe that instances where
an appeal is based upon individual, subjective opinion, and
not on a clear understanding of the principles of which
govern the application of Baha'i law, are quite likely to fall
into this category. Because these kinds of cases can, and
do exist, I still conclude that the correct course of action
for an individual who doesn't trust the decision of an
Assembly is to consult with a member of the Continental
Board of Counselors.
As a closing note: you earlier claimed that Counselors
are inclined not to make waves because they are
concerned about being reappointed. I should, at this time,
point out that this assertion has been made without
supporting evidence and speaks to the motives of these
people. In concert, these combine to render this
assertion useless.
Warmest Regards,
From SFotos@eworld.comThu Nov 23 00:12:51 1995
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 19:14:59 -0800
From: SFotos@eworld.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Intercultural communication and SE
Dear Talismans,
Different people have been commenting on Standpoint Epistemology (SE) from
the perspective of their fields and I would like to share some thoughts on
the topic as it exists in applied/sociolinguistics.
The deterministic argument that the language we speak controls how we think
was overthrown in the 60s by the work of Chomsky on universal grammar
(demonstrating that the human brain is hardwired to learn languages, and has
pre-existing parameters which are then "set" according to the language
learned), and also by research on multilinguals, who appear to have a
cognitive edge over monolinguals. The current view resonates well with SE:
Language, though and culture are interrelated and it is not possible to say
which is more influential. They shape us and we, in turn, shape them through
the permanence of the written word.
As a result of this view, two areas are now very hot: contact linguistics,
which studies language use/alternation in multilingual urban areas, and
intercultural communications. This last field is not only important
academically, but commercially, too. There are many institutes offering
training in intercultural communication, much of it geared to North American
businessmen who work in Asia. I've heard of centers which charge as much as
$2,000 for a weekend of intercultural consciousness raising.
Several findings here fit in well with discussions on Talisman. One is the
point that interpretation of phenomena depends on the cultural viewpoint of
the person. For example, in Japan, listeners nod when you are speaking, but
this does not necessarily indicate agreement. Rather, it means "I hear you
and understand your view." In the west, we interpret this to mean that the
interlocutor agrees with what we've said. You can imagine what problems this
one miscommunication has caused at the conference table!!!
Another point concerns emotions. Researchers agree that there are
fundamental emotions which are innate and part of the genetic code: love,
joy, surprise, sadness, anger, disgust, contempt, fear and interest. But
other emotions are culturally dependent, for example, shame and guilt. The
implication is that we must not assume that people from different cultures
feel the same way about things that we do.
Stephen Hawking evokes an image of countless universes arising like soap
bubbles from a stream of physical reality. Going with this image and
extending concepts from intercultural communication theory, I can imagine
many life forms on different planets, each with their own Manifestations and
their own languages, expressed through motion, color, sound waves, chemical
exudates, whatever. Obviously, "meaning" will be very situationally
dependent. But there will still be universals. The various Manifestations
will speak to both the universals and the needs of the particular situation.
Perhaps, in the physical universe, the end of God's Great Plan will be the
universal acknowledgment that "Creation is One."
I'd better end this overly-long post..
Best,
Sandy Fotos <sfotos@eworld.com>
Tokyo, Japan
From dpeden@imul.comThu Nov 23 00:12:56 1995
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 95 06:19:04+030
From: Don Peden <dpeden@imul.com>
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Peace to Burl
Thanks Burl. That is a quote I'll pin close to my heart for a talisman.
Love,
Bev.
From JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.eduThu Nov 23 00:13:08 1995
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 95 22:41:49 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Good deeds
"The good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the Near Ones." is a
popular Islamic proverb. It was once quoted to me by an Ayatollah
whom I was trying to recruit for a project that I knew he privately
supported but that was tainted by association with the Faith.
john walbridge
From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzThu Nov 23 01:22:40 1995
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 18:47:52 +1200
From: Robert Johnston <robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
To: Don Peden <dpeden@imul.com>, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Peace by 2000? What is that!
Dear Bev,
If you are not keeping copies of your letters, then I hope Eric's
got them safely tucked away. I simply do not know how you manage to write
so much with such fluency and colour. Historians of the future will use
the letters/record, surely, and, in the meantime, if your painting muse
ever deserts you, you could write a smashing book...
If what I am saying detracts attention from the seriousness of your "Peace
by 2000? What is that!" letter, then I am sorry.
from the temperate zone,
Robert.
From derekmc@ix.netcom.comThu Nov 23 01:22:57 1995
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 21:39:05 -0800
From: DEREK COCKSHUT <derekmc@ix.netcom.com>
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Teaching Story.
My dear Talismanians
Today one of my year of service students made a choice to stay
at Bosch until June of next year. Eric <Horton> really had
problems with this ,he prayed and meditated for guidance and
decided to stay because of the teaching opportunies. However as
he used my Computor to send off the message he was staying here
. He still wondered if he had made the right choice . He then
walked off to fetch the school mail from our postbox . As he
reached the school entrance . He was stopped by a young man .
Who said are you part of the Baha'i Faith , to which Eric
replied Yes .Well I think I want to become a Baha'i can you help
me please ?
Eric has taken the young man to his first Feast tonight in Santa
Cruz City. The young man is called Leonard and orginally is from
Detroit he is twenty years old . I think it is a wonderful
confirmation of Eric's service . The time for rapid entry
approaches my friends I promise you.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
From cfarhoum@osf1.gmu.eduThu Nov 23 01:29:50 1995
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 01:25:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand <cfarhoum@osf1.gmu.edu>
To: Bahai-discuss@bcca.org
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, peace@csf.colorado.edu, icar@gmu.edu, mug@gmu.edu,
crews@csf.colorado.edu, bubba@gwis.circ.gwu.edu, rgoldberg@vms1.gmu.edu,
mgopin@gmu.edu, ljgroff@dhvx20.csudu.edu, psmoker@college.antioch.edu,
whall1@gmu.edu, iking2nsf.gov@osf1.gmu.edu
Subject: Thanksgiving wishes!!
To all my dear friends old and new, near and far ...
Greetings! As we gather together with family and friends this weekend, i
wish you all a very blessed and happy Thanksgiving, and i pray that the
years to come will fill your lives with many things to be grateful for.
i also ask that as we gather this weekend to celebrate we think about the
things which we are blessed with and remember those who are not as
fortunate as we are. Not only to think about them, but rather to think
of ways we can as individuals, families, and communities share with them
some part of our lives that will give them something to be grateful for also.
Warmest Regards,
Cheshmak Farhoumand
"Be generous in prosperity, and thankful in adversity. Be worthy of the
trust of thy neighbour and look upon him with a bright and friendly face.
Be a treasure to the poor, an admonisher to the rich, an answerer of the
cry of the needy, a preserver of the sanctity of thy pledge. Be fair in
thy judgment and guarded in thy speech. Be unjust to no man and show all
meekness to all men. Be a lamp unto them that walk in darkness, a joy to
the sorrowful, a sea for the thirsty, a haven for the distressed, an
upholder and defender of the victim of oppression. Let integrity and
uprightness distinguish all thine acts. Be a home for the stranger, a
balm to the suffering, a tower of strength for the fugitive. Be eyes to
the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring. Be an ornament
to the coutnenance of truth, a crown to the brow of fidelity, a pillar of
the temple of righteousness, a breath of life to the body of mankind, an
ensign of the hosts of justice, a luminary above the horizon of virtue, a
dew to the soil of the human heart, an ark on the ocean of knowledge, a
sun in the heaven of bounty, a gem on the diadem of wisdom, a shining
light in the firmament of thy generation, a fruit upon the tree of
humility."
Baha'u'llah
From gpoirier@acca.nmsu.eduThu Nov 23 01:30:24 1995
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 23:25:15 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]" <gpoirier@acca.nmsu.edu>
To: Robert Johnston <robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Baha'i Bill of Rights/criminal code
On Thu, 23 Nov 1995, Robert Johnston wrote:
> Obviously Baha'i law
> would stem from the Aqdas, which is -- jurisprudentially speaking -- brief
> and to the point.
> Globally speaking, the elimination of contending legal systems would surely
> have advantages similar to the establishment of a universal language.
> Simplicity again.
The underlying assumptions of the legal systems result in radically
different structures; just as the differing shapes of the specks of dust
onto which water condenses, results in the different shapes of the
snowflakes built on them. The six sides result from the shape of the H2O
molecule. But back out of the world of metaphor, and into the quite
difficult area of law: I don't think we have a clear handle of what the
underlying principles of Baha'i law are. I think there has to be
considerable study, and guidance from the House, before we know where
those assumptions are located. I don't know that all of the important
ones are contained in the Aqdas. I was quite surprised to learn that
when Jesus was asked which of the Laws of Moses were the most important,
he reached into Leviticus and pulled out, to love God with our whole
hearts, and our neighbors as ourselves. My guess is we will be looking
closely at the Guardian's comments, in WOB and ADJ, where he identifies
the root principles.
From friberg@will.brl.ntt.jpThu Nov 23 01:55:59 1995
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 95 15:52:29 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg" <friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp>
To: rvh3@columbia.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Your Posting
Dear Richard:
Your posting on the subject of improving the adminstrative institutions
is excellent, and well in accord with what many outside the US believe.
It is American provincialism, I believe, that holds that a very explicit
legal code can create justice. Perhaps it is especially pronounced in
Japan, but here we see the present legal system in the United States as
failing to create safe cities or justice for the disadvantaged. The
perception, and it won't go away soon, is of a society in conflict
with itself. Legalism seems to be merely a license to turn a blind eye
towards the problem.
My main problem with the discussion of legal codes is that a "problem"
has been defined and characterized, and solutions are being proposed,
entirely on the basis of anecdotal evidence.
As a scientist, I am accustomed to the idea that perceptions,
especially those based on anecdotal evidence, can be highly
misleading. If there is perception of a problem, then, the next
step is not to propose a solution, but to detemine if there is
in fact a problem. If there is, then the parameters characteristic
of the problem should be determined. On the basis of an understanding
of the problem and its causes, the possibilities of addressing that
problem should then be considered. Those possibilities include, but
are not limited to, idealized culturally-bound solutions.
It may be decided that an attempt to solve the problem would create
too many additional problems, and that attempts at a solution must wait.
Yours respectfully,
Stephen R. Friberg
From burlb@bmi.netThu Nov 23 23:28:12 1995
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 95 00:42 PST
From: Burl Barer <burlb@bmi.net>
To: "[G. Brent Poirier]" <gpoirier@acca.nmsu.edu>
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Baha'i Bill of Rights/criminal code
"The best criterion whereby you can measure the spiritual attainment of an
Assembly is the extent its members feel themselves responsible for the
welfare of the group. And perchance they feel forced to deprive a person
from his vote it should only be to safeguard the rest and not merely to
inflict punishment" (from a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi)
I found the expressions "feel forced" and "should only" to be significant.
Although this was written on behalf of the Guardian, and not by his own
hand, I think it communicates quite well.
Burl (still working on my five hour dog and pony show regarding the
Spiritual Destiny of America which I will give at Menucha Winter School
starting on Friday. I think I will begin with a rollicking condemnation of
administrative repression, a cry on behalf of the suppressed elite, I will
rail wildly agaist the lack of nurturing of our Baha'i artists, the rampant
homophobia in our communities, the relegation of women to the coffee pot
brigade (Linda, got any decaf handy?), the repugnent treatment of our
academic scholars, the disrespect shown Baha'is who work in media and most
especially advertising and marketing, the fear of youth that don't look like
the cast of Growing Pains, Sherman's trauma over Ahmad's Seed of Creation
Theory, and show them photos of DIckie's Barber Shop. That should get their
attention. After having done all that,
I will whack them over the head several times with the Will and Testament of
Abdul Baha, The Advent of Divine Justice, and Citadel of Faith. That should
use up the first 45 minutes. After that, I will ad lib.
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
From 100735.2257@compuserve.comThu Nov 23 23:28:38 1995
Date: 23 Nov 95 07:27:57 EST
From: "H.C. deFlerier deCourcelles" <100735.2257@compuserve.com>
To: "\"Donald Zhang Osborn\"" <osborndo@pilot.msu.edu>
Cc: Talisman <TALISMAN@indiana.edu>
Subject: Tone, Words, Utterance
Chere Monsieur Donald Zhang Osborn,
I have found your contribution to be very interesting and aptly suited to
the present day needs of the Human Society:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Allah'u'abha!
> In response to a thread on "tone" (which I confess to not
>having followed closely, although I posted on it earlier), I
>would like to offer a few thoughts. I conclude with a suggested
>amendment to list rules.
> Perhaps it would be most instructive to shift the focus of
>discussion from "tone" to utterance and choice of words, and to
>refer more frequently to the Writings on the subject.
> "Tone" seems hard to define, especially on E-mail, where all
>the physical aspects of tone are absent. It is easier to focus
>on choice of words (and I do not hold myself up as a positive
>example in this category). How does one change one's tone? By
>choosing one's words. So why not focus directly on that?
<DELETIONS>
--------------------------------------------------------------
I find that the Writings of the Baha'i Faith contains two main aspects,
namely, 1. The Administrative Order and 2. The Spiritual Being.
What you have alluded to concerns the aspect of the Spiritual Being. All
the Writings that I have so far come across seem to converge on the Spiritual
Being of the Human Society and alos summarise and strongly underline what
philosophers and reformers have been saying generation after generation - and
age after age. Baha'i may like to call it Progressive Revelation.
Of course, we are familiar with some pre-Babi wise sayings:
Soul supercedes the mind and the mind supercedes the body.
-- unknown
Then there is another that has impressed me since very long:
Watch your thoughts as they can transpire into your words.
Watch your words as they can transpire into your deeds.
Watch your deeds as they can turn into your habits.
Watch your habits as they are your character.
Watch your character as it shapes your destiny.
--- unknown
Then the last but not the least:
O SON OF SPIRIT
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure kindly and radiant heart,
that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and
everlasting.
It is especially interesting to note that Baha'U'llah Himself has
referred to it as "His First Counsel." This, quite obviously, means that without
the Human Society heeding to this counsel, all the other elements of His
Teachings will be without foundation and totally meaningless.
A spirit that conforms with the First Counsel of Baha'U'llah can only
transpire similar thoughts - in turn, the deeds, the habits, the character and
the destiny. I understand that this is what Baha'U'llah meant by those above
words.
Luxembourg City Avec beacoup d'amitie
23-Nov-'95 H-C. de Flerier
From JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.eduThu Nov 23 23:33:57 1995
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 95 10:00:22 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Mani
Mani is a curious case. He looks very much like a Judeo-Christian
tradition prophet but was never recognized as being in any sense
legitimate except among his own followers. (I have a private
suspicion that the "Sabeans" of the Qur'an might have been
Manichaeans, but doubtless Chris Buck will set me straight.)
In a lot of ways, Mani seems to have been the prototype of a modern
religion: a scriptural canon, an organized administrative structure,
a well-organized missionary effort, etc. I think they simply failed to
establish themselves as the dominate religion in any significant region
and were eventually ground down by relentless persecution everywhere.
They lasted longest in China, dying out there sometime early in the
present millenium.
As far as I know, the Cathars were not authentically Manichean: they did
not know the name Mani, practice the distinctive Manichaean rituals, etc.
The church probably called them Manichaeans because of some
percieved doctrinal similarity. (Medieval churchmen knew Manichaeans
through St. Augustine, who had been one in his youth.)
Because of all the persecution, our knowledge of Manichaeism is
pretty fragmentary and is derived from heresiographies, fragmentary
hymn books (Manichaeans were very big on hymns in the vernaculars),
and the like. It is also an extraordinary difficult subject to study. The
Manichaeans were firm believers in translating literature into the local
languages, so a serious Manichaeanist needs to know Greek, Latin, Coptic,
various Middle Iranian languages, Chinese, and the major European
research languages, among others.
john walbridge
P. S. I don't know of any explicit reference to Mani or Manichaeism in
the Baha'i writings, but there was an article on the subject by Howard
Geary in *World Order Magazine* in the mid-70s.
From margreet@margreet.seanet.comThu Nov 23 23:34:11 1995
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 07:32:34 -0800
From: "Marguerite K. Gipson" <margreet@margreet.seanet.com>
To: Burl Barer <burlb@bmi.net>
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Baha'i Bill of Rights/criminal code
Well, Wish I was at Menucha this year... This Campground is one of the best
for just a small intimate gathering of the Friends, it really boost the
soul........
Good luck Burl... I just hope they don't throw you over the Cliff...
Ps.. Take a look out over the pool... Gorgeous view!
warmly,
Margreet
At 12:42 AM 11/23/95 PST, Burl Barer wrote:
>"The best criterion whereby you can measure the spiritual attainment of an
>Assembly is the extent its members feel themselves responsible for the
>welfare of the group. And perchance they feel forced to deprive a person
>from his vote it should only be to safeguard the rest and not merely to
>inflict punishment" (from a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi)
>
>I found the expressions "feel forced" and "should only" to be significant.
>Although this was written on behalf of the Guardian, and not by his own
>hand, I think it communicates quite well.
>
>Burl (still working on my five hour dog and pony show regarding the
>Spiritual Destiny of America which I will give at Menucha Winter School
>starting on Friday.
From LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.eduThu Nov 23 23:35:04 1995
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 95 11:28:08 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: male aggression
Dear Derek and Burl, I want to wish you two particularly a happy Thanksgiving.
I always like to take special note of people with special needs on holidays.
Since the two of you are "computerly challenged" (I suppose that is the term I
should used), I feel that special compassion is called for. Kathy and I would
like to let you know that, since we have had no difficulties communicating
privately about the use of Great Danes and SWAT teams at Bosch, that we will be
happy to provide you with any assistance so that you can communicate your
sacred communications in private.
Also, I would like to thank Chris Buck and Rob Stockman for not saying anything
about me at the AAR conference behind my back. This is obvious from Derek's
postings. How can I tell? Well, the giveaway was when Derek referred to my
black and red lace. Believe me, it wasn't black and red.
As for my comments on Catholicism and Shi'ism, I know that these traditions are
not terribly popular among many groups. I am not referring to any kind of
"normative" practice of these religions. What I am saying is that adherents of
these religions tend to find their own niches and while adhering to basic ideas
and laws, they still find the means to satisfy themselves spiritually without
feeling a great deal of constraint. Farzin's comments on this subject were
wonderful. Perhaps he should post them again.
As for the title of this posting - I read an article in the local paper about a
study entitled "Mic Study Links Male Aggesssion, Chemical." It says, and I
quote, "New resarch suggests tha tmales may be like autos with their
accelerators welded to the floor, their aggessive and sexual urges held in
check by constant application of the brakes. Scientists at Johns Hopkins
University reported Thrusday in the Bri5tish Jornal Nature that male mice with
a single gene switched off -- so their brains can't produce the chemical nitric
oxide - exhibit a startling pattern of behavior. They appear fearless when
hanging upside down from miniature tightropes, lingering for long periods while
normal mice scramble to right themselvs. They chase squealing female mice
around their cges for hours, even when the females are not in heat. Male mice
typically quickly stop trying to mate with females that are not in estrus." It
continues, but I think this is enough. This is my public service for today.
Now you guys know what is wrong with you. You can all send your thanks for
this posting either publicly or privately. In the meantime, I have to go
baste the turkey and hope that all the men I live with have a