Logs of Talisman Discussions of Bahai Faith 11/95 (6)
From cfarhoum@osf1.gmu.eduThu Nov 16 17:37:14 1995
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 11:37:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: mfoster@tyrell.net
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Covenant-breaker? (fwd)
Hi Mark, thank you for forwarding Judy's letter on the Baha'i Discuss. I
see several things contradicting in her letter and i think she
misrepresents the Faith by her interpretation of things the same way she
accuses the Baha'is of doing. Do you think it would be appropriate for a
few deepened Baha'is on the Baha'i Discuss to consult and formulate a
response to send to her on the listserve that she wrote the message on?
One thing she said that i had a problem with among other things is that
she says something like, I have a problem adhering to a religion that
does not accept a homosexual expression of love. Well, Christianity does
not either!! Now, if Christian churches choose to 'interprete' the
doctrine in a certain way, fine but by whose authority?
Anyway, i would be interested in hearing what others thought of this
letter and how it should be addressed if at all.
Regards,
Cheshmak Farhoumand
From mfoster@tyrell.netThu Nov 16 17:51:16 1995
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 12:52:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "Mark A. Foster"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: G-Ethic List (fwd)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
FYI, the same person who forwarded me the note I posted yesterday
has sent me a new message dealing with the Baha'i Faith (see below) -
though written by someone else (not Judy this time). He asked me if I
would be willing to subscribe to the G-Ethic list and respond to some of
her arguments. (BTW, it was on *G-Ethic* not on Baha'i Discuss.) Would
anyone be interested in joining to this list in order to dialogue with
her and others? I am not on the list, personally. I *may* subscribe, but
I am already on about 15 or so other lists - including the one which I
co-moderate (Baha'i Announce) - and with my online work on CompuServe
and America Online, I am already spread a bit thin.
To subscribe, send a message to:
listserv@vm.temple.edu
The subscription command is:
subscribe G-Ethic Your Name
TTFN,
Mark
E >Dear G-ethic Members:
E >
E >I was one of the people who thanked Judy privately for her caveat
E >concerning the Baha'i claim to representing Truth with a capital
E >T and the Baha'i tendency to gently hijack and "Babize"
E >messengers and messages of other religions. I had begun a
E >response to Roxanne's and Dr. Coleman's notes but decided that
E >Judy had argued the point far more effectively than I could have.
E >In addition, mine is an outsider's perspective, though I have
E >investigated the Baha'i religion and its Shi'ite roots.
E >
E >I have studied the _Kitab-i-Iqan_ (Book of Certitude--a volume of
E >Baha'i scripture) and find it filled with a dangerous mixture of
E >notions--dangerous precisely because there is much that I applaud
E >(attitudes and teachings that could make ours a more loving and
E >peaceful word community) but at the cost of critical reason and
E >freedom of conscience. The sound parts might seduce readers into
E >accepting an ideology that is every bit as judgmental, exclusive,
E >and absolutist as the most fundamentalist and rigid branches of
E >the other religions of Abraham--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
E >As a Christian, I consider the doctrine of papal infallibility or
E >the idea of censorship offensive in Catholic Christianity; I find
E >scriptural literalism unacceptable in Protestant Christianity; I
E >have grave reservations concerning a narrow interpretation of
E >revelation; I believe that the insistence on One True Faith is
E >the greatest of all obstacles to world peace. Why should I then
E >applaud the emergence of yet one more exclusive creed whose
E >adherents want to convert the world to a single religion founded
E >by yet another ultimate savior/prophet?
E >
E >Instead, I want to celebrate the countless paths toward the
E >Divine and take delight in the ever-changing, expanding, open-
E >ended, multi-faceted human religious response to the Spirit of
E >Love and Surprise at the Cosmic Core. I want to respond to and
E >embrace the Second Axial Shift and help co-create the Noosphere
E >precisely by celebrating the wisdom ensconced in the diversity of
E >religions. The patronizing insistence that "all religion has
E >truth but only Baha'i has the final truth" is no more attractive
E >among Baha'i's than it is (to me) in my own Catholic tradition.
E >Baha'i clearly expects to become THE ONLY world religion. Give me
E >Ramakrishna instead who taught that many paths lead to God and
E >that each of us should and make our own journey in our own way.
E >The ends do not justify the means: the time has come for us to
E >transcend the old, absolutist mode of thinking and being; the
E >time has come for us to take the leap of faith into an open-ended
E >universe organized according to the principle of primal love
E >which reconciles opposites without levelling multiplicity into
E >sameness. This is what following Yeshua, Love Incarnate, at the
E >cusp of the 21st century of the Common Era means to me!
E >
E >Pax et Bonum, Ingrid (facshaferi@mercur.usao.edu)
From pmb@nur.win-uk.netThu Nov 16 17:52:20 1995
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 15:42:35
From: Paul M Booth
To: 100745.3470@compuserve.com
Cc: bahai-discuss@bcca.org, Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Transmutation Base Metal Into Gold
>Thanks! It occurs to me that if copper is going to be changed into gold, gold
>won't be worth much - in which case why is gold the standard for calculating
>Huquq???
Hi Andrew
Yes this also occurred to me. To get some more input, I am copying
this to Bahai-discuss & Talisman. I have no answers but a couple of
conjectures:-
Just because it can be done, it won't necessarily mean it can be
done cheaply. For years now (20 at least, so I believe) they have
been able to extract gold from seawater but the process is so
horrifically expensive it is not worth it.
Following the piece I copied to you, in which I argued that this
prophesy would have both a literal and figurative fulfillment, the
following was posted on "Discuss":-
>From: maeissin@capnet.ucla.edu
Actually, according to several people I've talked to, they've been
converting copper to gold at UC Santa Cruz and elsewhere for quite
sometime. It's only a few molecules at a time, but it can be done.
Let's not make excuses for the Manifestation. If He says that we'll
transmute one substance to another, then it will be possible. If we
think it's impossible, it's our limitation, not the Manifestations'.
> Michael Eissinger
It would be interesting indeed if this could be further
substantiated. Perhaps someone on "Discuss"/Talisman would know how
to go about this.
Assuming it is true, again, it is so expensive a process as to make
no difference whatsoever as to the price of gold. Anyway, is it not
the case that many commodities are kept scarce in order to maintain
value. If all the gold and diamonds that the mine-owners have were
suddenly to be released on the market, the price would plummet. At
least, come the "(r)evolution" we will know that in a Baha'i world
any such manipulation would be for the good of the world at large
and not just for the mine-owners.
Following our enquiry on Talisman, I received the following very
prompt response (for which thanks):-
>> Andrew & I also have another query namely where does it say that the
>> transmutation of base metal into gold is one of the signs of Man's
>> coming of age (or something to that effect)>
>
>This is from the notes in the Aqdas, but it involves the development
>of that Divine Philosophy part of which involves a *radical* method
>for the transmutation of elements. (Which I personally don't believe
>has occurred yet, but obviously read the section carefully).
>
Thanks for this D - As it was sent privately, for the sake of
netiquette I won't give name but he was from a Dept of Physics at a
University - (aren't we lucky to have a physicist on the case). Can
I be a pain and trouble you to be more specific with your
reference, I have just leafed through the "notes" but couldn't find
it (could well be my myopia).
>Big A (wishful thinking!)
Greetings, Big P (err 'praps not!!) Paul
------------------------------------------------------------------
("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) Greetings
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' From Paul & the Cats
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' Paul = pmb@nur.win-uk.net
(il).-'' (li).' ((!.-' Cats = Felines@nur.win-uk.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From s0a7254@tam2000.tamu.eduThu Nov 16 17:52:44 1995
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 13:59:32 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: pulp fiction
Dear Dave and All,
Just back from a Talisman hiatus and caught Dave's message.
I don't think it was a "miracle" but the more important
question is what was in the briefcase? Everyone saw the
glow but what the hec was it? (I am sure Burl has a theory.)
Roger Ebert of the Chicago Sun Times (or Tribune) thought
that Tarantino got it from an old movie the name of which
I have forgotten.
Anyway the movie was, to say the least, original - the
only thing I had a problem with was the tone ;-) An equally
good new movie, I think, is "The Usual Suspects".
take care,
sAmAn
From cfarhoum@osf1.gmu.eduThu Nov 16 17:53:01 1995
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 15:26:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: "Mark A. Foster"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: G-Ethic List (fwd)
Hi Mark. Boy am i getting frustrated with these people. Where in the
Writings does it say that the Faith is THE TRUTH? i have never come
across this at all. In fact, in Gleanings Baha'u'llah talks about
consorting with the people of all religions in a spirit of harmony and
encourages that people of all Faiths open up dialogue. These individuals
are completely misrepresenting the Faith. Albeit that there are Baha'is
who assert that the Writings say the Faith is the TRUTH and that one day
all people will be Baha'is and then we will have a great world. But,
excuse me that is their interpretation and not the word of God.
I would like to subscribe but i already spend too much time on e-mail and
it is getting in the way of my studies but i will probably subscribe if i
know there will be other Baha'is who join who are more deepened and
knowledgeable that i who will be there to help out in the clarification
of these misinterpretations. If there are any other Baha'is who are
subscribing, will they please let me know.
Regards,
Cheshmak Farhoumand
From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzThu Nov 16 17:55:16 1995
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 10:44:24 +1200
From: Robert Johnston
To: Cheshmak A Farhoumand , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: G-Ethic List (fwd)
Dear Cheshmak,
Re:
\\ Where in the
>Writings does it say that the Faith is THE TRUTH? i have never come
>across this at all.
Expressed THAT way, the Faith could never be the truth, or the standard of
truth, or whatever. The truth is not extreme. (& I am not soliciting a
"middle path" statement from our Buddhist friend Bruce Burrell, either!
The Faith has its own one of those!)
...drawing back from the tip of the limb,
Robert.
From cbuck@ccs.carleton.caThu Nov 16 18:27:17 1995
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 18:07:37 EST
From: Christopher Buck
To: "Stephen R. Friberg"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, brburl@mailbag.com
Subject: Re: Buddha-Nature *Self*
Stephen Frieberg writes:
_______________________
The Nirvana Sutra says that \{the Buddha\} has already
foretold your destination, namely, that all the Beings are from the
beginning in Nirvana: from the beginning are they endowed with the
gift of immaculate wisdom.
_______________________
RESPONSE:
Around five years ago, I wrote a paper on the Buddha-Nature
*Self* for a Pure Land Buddhist priest turned academic. The text I
used was the *Nirvana Sutra*.
I consulted the extant Sanskrit fragments of the original
version, an English translation of the Chinese rescension, and a
couple of studies on the Tibetan version.
Synoptically, it was quite clear to me that the Buddha Nature
*Self* was as *positive* a teaching as one could possibly encounter in
Buddhism. I make no pretensions as to understanding its nature, but I
think it is profound when the Nirvana Sutra describes the Buddha
Nature Self as *Non-Empty* (= beyond Emptiness!).
Given the negative anthropology that surrounds descriptions of
the self as *Mystery* in Baha'i texts, I submit that some of the
apophatic notions of self in both Baha'i sources and in the Nirvana
Sutra exhibit certain common features--similar, though not equivalent.
After submitting a paper on some of the *positive* teachings
of Nagarjuna, to the surprise of some of my classmates, I received my
lowest mark of my Master's coursework (B+). I got the message: Don't
speak about any notion of *self* in Buddhism, and do not speak of
*positive* teachings, and dare not compare Buddhism with other traditions!
As I'm pressed for time, leaving for the American Academy of
Religion conference tomorrow (Linda, watch out for my pen-camera!), I
won't drag the paper out now. Suffice it to say that, in my
experience, dialogue is very testy with many Buddhists, because you
can never get past being *corrected* in order to get down to the
business of any real exchange of insights.
Bruce, I don't know you, but I respect your Buddhist training,
and would never presume to know more than you in this context. I simply
wish to point out that no dialogue is possible if the non-Buddhist
participants--who typically exert a far greater effort to understand
and accommodate Buddhist insights than the Buddhist participants do
(reciprocally, I mean)--are not given some kind of parity in the
dialogue and if their perspicuity is not also acknowledged.
BTW, have you read Eva Darguay's translation of the Tibetan
text that *proves* the existence of a Creator?
Respectfully,
Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
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From derekmc@ix.netcom.comThu Nov 16 23:53:52 1995
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 15:40:51 -0800
From: DEREK COCKSHUT
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Transmutation of Base Metal into Gold.
In respect of the transmutation of base metal into Gold . As I see that UCSC is
mentioned I had better explain as I am not doubt to blame for this , so you all can have
the precise facts as I have relayed them when ever this subject comes up . In 1988 I
had to make contact with a Professor at the Earth Sciences Building at UCSC in Santa
Cruz California . During the course of several visits I found out the type of projects
her department was working on . One of them involved taking the magma from the
Earth's inner core and subjecting this raw material to varying pressures .They were
drilling to some amazing depths in this programme . Depending on the pressure you
can get get a whole variety of things including copper and gold .I am sure the
scientists on Talisman can explain the reaction that is created to
cause the change
better than I , so I will stay with basic information . I ask the
obvious question can
you change the pressured material back into the orginal matter and
change it into
something else . The answer was yes we have been doing it for a few
years now . Like
copper into gold I asked , that resulted in a strange look and the
reply well you
wouldn't do it it costs too much. But can you do it I said . Yes you
can but it is too
expensive, was the response . Have you done it I asked , changed copper
into gold by
this method . Yes we have but it is too expensive to have commercial
value was the
reply.
As far as the extraction of Gold from seawater that does not fall into
the same situation
and was looked at as a future possibilty when the price of Gold went
very high in the
early eighties . There was speculation in the jewelery business that
gold would reach
$2000 per troy oz by 1990 , and alternative methods were being thought
of to obtain
gold .The collecting of gold from the tailraces , tailing pools and
mounds at working
, dormant and worked out gold and silver mines is an old business .
Collection of gold
from seawater is a possible modern extension for that business although
at present
does not make economic sense . The changing of elements which is one of
the signs of
the coming of age of Humanity belongs to a time in the future . I know
there was a
rather strange letter in the American Baha'i about two years ago
claiming this
happened in C1918 , the person was entitled to their view but I believe
any competent
scientist would disagree .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
From mfoster@tyrell.netThu Nov 16 23:54:18 1995
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 17:35:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Mark A. Foster"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: G-Ethic List (fwd)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi, Cheshmak -
You wrote:
C >Hi Mark. Boy am i getting frustrated with these people. Where in the
C >Writings does it say that the Faith is THE TRUTH? i have never come
C >across this at all.
As Jesus was reported to have said to His disciples [my own attempt
at translation], "I have many things remaining to tell you, but you
cannot withstand then now. However, when He, the Spirit of Truth
[aletheia], has come, He will guide you to all truth [aletheia]."
Therefore, what I would say is that "Truth" or "Reality" is a
description of the Manifestations of Divinity, i.e., the Prophets of God
are, metaphorically, the Perfect Mirrors reflecting the Sun of Truth (or
God).
Then, by extention, all that God emanates/creates (including the
humanity of the Prophet), *through* the Manifestations of His Essence,
are the expressions of truth or reality. In fact, it seems to me that,
from a God's-eye perspective (revealed knowledge), illusion is merely
the want of truth, as, using the Master's analogy, darkness is the
absence of light. If, IMO, we can begin to see reality from the overall
viewpoint given by the Messenger of "all truth" (Baha'u'llah), the
futility of divisions will become apparent.
With loving regards to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Kansas Director, Foundation for the Science of Reality (Info. on Request) *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
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___
* UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-)
From mfoster@tyrell.netThu Nov 16 23:57:49 1995
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 20:43:46 -0600 (CST)
From: "Mark A. Foster"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Marian`s essay
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
It has been a while since I have posted anything from my late
friend, Marian Lippitt, Ph.D., the person who developed much of the
model I use for studying the Faith and for whom the Foundation for the
Science of Reality was founded. Enjoy!
Mark
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Professionals and the Relationship to 5th Dimensional Realities
Marian C. Lippitt
Pyschologists, MDs and other professionals involved in human therapy - face a
big issue when they actually undertake to add the 5th Dimension to what they
know and earn their living at, because they deal exclusively in human
concepts (however inspired or enlightened). Their terminology is exclusive
to that of the human science in which they have been educated.
You see, until now the soul has been the "see-er" and what it has "seen" has
been accepted as reality. The human consciousness is aware of the "see-er",
and has accepted its ideas about the "the soul" or self (originally
designated as the EGO or "I") as the human reality. But it is NOT. What our
consciousness "sees" will always be only human concepts, all of which are
somewhat erroneous because of the limitations of our powers of perception:
Senses perceives only 3 dimensions of physical space
Rational Powers : perceives ony 4 dimensions that we know are fallible
because-
Reasoning - is only accurate when based on absolutely true assumptions.
Imagination- sees the unreal as readily as the real
Memory- is very limited in scope (tradition)
Inspiration- or intuition is often indistinguishable from imagination
Faith enables a person to believe in untruth as well as truth. It is only
dependable in the light of Divine Revelation, and what it sees then is
still only in terms of its own human concepts.
You see, this is what is perceptible in Time and Space and it may represent a
lot of enlightenment. The viewer - the scientist, pyschologist, doctor, etc.
- each pursuing his own purpose, finds his knowledge to be all he needs or
wants, though.
But once a soul moves up into 5th Dimensional consciousness, the whole scene
changes. There is no more evil or hell, because our Source is Glorious; and
so is what the Source manifests and creates, because it is all fulfilling
God's purpose. WE begin to FEEL the divine Purpose and Power, the Spirit
that animates us, the Will that over-rules the ego-will, the Word that
reveals and manifests REALITY, etc.
Children can be taught this and led very easily into that 5th dimensional
consciousness. But the human nature rebels against it. The scientist or
psychologist or MD, in his ego-consciousness, can't bear to see an error in
his own human concepts and rebels against that new dimension and viewpoint.
From dpeden@imul.comThu Nov 16 23:58:03 1995
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 07:09:58+030
From: Don Peden
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Truth
Dear Mark and friends:
This is an interesting debate, whether the Baha'i Faith holds the absolute
truth or not, but a futile one, I feel. Of course it holds the truth...as
do the other revelations/religions/divinely inspired philosophies/etc. If
it comes from "God", it has truth. Baha'u'llah addresses this issue in, I
think, the Tablet of Wisdom. Please correct me on that if I am wrong. My
understanding of what he says is that what he offers is knowledge which not
only re-emphasises knowledge of past
messangers/prophets/manifestations/Buddhas or whatever handle you would like
to put on them, but expands upon it, corrects it where it has become
misconstrued, and adds a new dimension and depth to it. In that sense, it
is not NECESSARY to spend time studying all the teachings of the past,
because they are encompassed in His Revelation. However, it certainly does
not preclude that path if one wishes to use that approach. What mankind
decides to dress it as later with words and semantics usually leans towards
our own prejudices through our own interpretations.
The question is, if we are seeking to know truth from any perspective,
Baha'i, Buddhist, or the Great Cosmic Mushroom, we need to hone our
listening skills before we start refuting what we do not understand. That
goes for us on Talisman as well. Just before we join the fray, lets listen
carefully to the fear behind the words being said. I hear echoes of fear of
exclusivity and they also cause vibration in my own fears. Do I run to
allay her fears in order to quell my own trembling, or from compassionate
understanding of the fear and an true examination of the issue. Let's not
confuse issues with the fact that someone has echoed the fear and pointed it
at us from the top of a different mountain. Is it a challenge, or a
legitimate questioning? Please consider carefully how we respond, because I
suspect that we will have to do a lot of it in the near future as the Baha'i
Community becomes more visible globally.
I see from the members list of Ethics that Roger Prentice is a member of
this list. From what I know of Roger Prentice, he is a pretty capable
individual. If he sees something which he feels it necessary to respond to
in defence of the Faith, I suspect he will. Otherwise, I guess you guys
better sharpen your swords, mount your steeds, and ride off into the battle.
Nothing like a new windmill to tilt at.
In the meantime, if we (the Baha'i Community) are still harbouring and
communicating ideas of exclusivity (and we know we are), then we had better
get our own act together, wash the mud from our face and get on with putting
into practice what we preach. Then we won't have so many glass houses to
throw stones at.
As previously discussed on Talisman, there is a difference between the Cause
of God and the Community of God. If there is misunderstanding happening on
this other list, could mistaking the Community for the Cause be part of the
misunderstanding?
In questioning my own mind and motives, I have to ask myself what are we
doing to broaden the understanding what inclusivity might look like in our
own communities? What questions are we taking to the feast on a regular
basis which probe the minds and hearts of our community members to develop a
loving broad framework which invites participation from all spheres? I'm
sure there are many more applications of the knowledge and minds which are
so active and clear thinking on Talisman in your home communities than just
interesting debate on Talisman. It is something which, hopefully, is being
infused into your environment, including the Baha'i community.
And from the kitchen of Bev, please remember that Baha'is are the "yeast" in
the bread, and there a lot of other components necessary to actually make an
edible bread. For my part, yeast is pretty yukky on it's own.
From PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.eduThu Nov 16 23:58:24 1995
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 17:23:07 PST8PDT
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: 1 of 4 (Judy's paper on Babism) LONG!
1 of 4
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 09:17:21 -0600
Reply-To: The Global Ethic Project
Sender: The Global Ethic Project
From: "Ingrid H. Shafer"
Subject: Judy's Revised Babism Paper -- VERY LONG
This is Ingrid's decoding of Judy's Bah'ai paper. I couldn't
figure out what H9Crqalya (defined at one point as "the immediate
archetypal world of Sadra") is. It's possible that I missed a
few additional codes. This points out a real difficulty with
sending already existing text, especially text containing all
sorts of diacritical marks and/or international characters. Judy
did indeed convert her paper to ASCII. Unfortunately, in e-mail
multi-national characters and numerous symbols are not available.
The various embedded and invisible codes for unusual characters
and printer commands are simply converted to visible ASCII
characters which results in practically unintelligible text
unless one has access to a built-in decoder capable of stripping
some of those codes and using others for formatting. I also
fixed a few typos (the editor in me can't be put on hold).
Babism
by Judy Buck-Glenn
The precise point at which the movement which began in Islam as
Babism moved outside of Islam itself and became a new religion is
a vexed question which cannot readily be answered. Certainly the
formulations laid down by Baha'u'llah as he redefined Babism so
that it became Baha'ism marked the decisive and clear breaking
points. But the first fracture began before Baha'u'llah seized
the reins. I would argue that the key decisive break which took
the new movement outside of Islam, and from which there was no
turning back, occurred within Babism itself.
Babism was originally a movement that arose in 19th century Shi'i
Islam, out of Shaykhism, and it cannot be understood apart from
Shaykhism, which has itself deep roots in Shi'ite thinking. Thus
it is necessary to begin with the roots of Shaykhism as a
starting point, and then to trace, as best one can, the
successive evolutions of Babism as it passed to the edges, and
then outside, of Islam.
It is important to stress from the outset that there are serious
problems with the sources available. Although Baha'ism, in the
largest part the successor to Babism, is a modern religious
movement, dating from the middle of the last century, it has, to
a very great degree, written--and, apparently, rewritten, and
edited, and expurgated--its own history. Until very recently,
only a few non-Baha'is had made Babism and Baha'ism an object of
serious study. Thus much of the material available is frankly
partisan. Much of that which is not partisan is likely to be
hostile, and thus suspect in the opposite direction. However, the
writers of the hostile material at least serve to raise questions
and problems which may bear closer scrutiny. Certain scholarly
works are now being produced which attempt to approach the issues
as objectively as possible, but this raises problems when the
official Baha'i histories are seriously challenged by these
scholarly investigations. Since certain books are forbidden to
Baha'is, and great pressure is exerted to keep anything which
does not fit the official history from being published, many
Baha'is are unaware of most of these questions and problems.1
The problem of texts that tend to veer strongly to one side or
the other must be borne in mind in any discussion that follows.
And it is, of course, also important to remember the numbers of
untranslated and untranscribed Babi and Baha'i texts, as well as
those texts and documents which have been lost to history in
upheavals, persecutions, and other occasions of destruction.2
Shaykhism is a movement that arose in Imami, or Twelver, Shi'i
Islam beginning in the 18th century. Its roots are in Muslim
theosophical concepts which combine cosmology and ontology such
that the universe is hierarchically arranged, and the worlds, and
the realms between worlds, relate to the levels of being...(of)
matter, soul, and intellect. 3 To this basic theosophy was added
the schema of the 12th century mystic and martyr, Suhrawardi,
which mingled into Islam neo-Platonism flavoured with a soupcon
of ancient, pre-Islamic Iranian thinking.
In this schema, Suhrawardi placed the material world, which is
apprehended through the senses, at the bottom. The realm above
this material one of the gross senses is that of angels and the
human soul. This is an intermediary realm, a place of substances
of light. 4 This realm may be apprehended through the
imagination. And above this inter world is the world of Pure
Light Beings, which has neither materiality nor physicality and
can be known only through the intellect.5
To this schema, the philosopher Ibn cArabi later added the fourth
realm, that of divinity. It was also he who suggested that the
realm of the imagination is one in which that which the human
soul imagines is at least as real--or more so--than anything in
this material world. As he described it it seems to be a great
deal like Plato's world of forms, but having, perhaps, something
also in common with Jung's world of archetypes in the realm of
the collective unconscious. For Ibn cArabi, this world is entered
in dreams, visions, and meditation, and cannot be gained by
'rational abstractions and...empirical materializations.'.6 Thus
seekers who become awakened to this reality may ascend from this
plane to a higher state, closer to the realm of the divine--a
return to God. Spirit, imagination, and intellect are capable of
transcending the limitations and liabilities of human nature, and
end all alienation and doubt. 7 Further, this tramsmaterial world
was, for Ibn cArabi, the site of the resurrection. Since this
realm exactly reflected the material world, the body one
possessed in this realm was physical, since it was the exact,
ideal counterpart of the earthly one; but it was also spiritual,
because it was, of course, immaterial. 8 Not infrequently, Ibn
cArabi's thought has been condemned as monistic and pantheistic9,
and viewed as threat to the very fiber of Islam, but its
influence through the centuries has been incontrovertible.
Drawing on Ibn cArabi and Suhrawardi, among others, the great
Mulla Sadra Shirazi (died 1640/1050), taught that this
intermediate world of images is real, but not material . A kind
of resurrection occurs here, and the paradise and hell both to be
found there are real as well. But the spiritual body acquired
there is only an intermediate resurrection body. Beyond this
realm comes a greater resurrection, in the realm of the
intellect. Knowledge (cilm) is ultimately pure existence,
informed as it was by a fundamental premise of his philosophical
system, the identity of the intellect and the intelligible.
10(Emphasis mine) Texts--the Qur'an and the Hadiths--are
studied, not literally, as they are by the jurists and the
theologians, but interpreted through the use of hermeneutics, by
one with the insight acquired through science of the self. 11 And
what Sadra means by intellect is a mystical knowing of origin,
destination, and salvation--not just the simple, physical
resurrection and juridical knowing of orthodoxy.12 According to
Sadra, once the material body has been shed, it is never taken up
again. The movement in resurrection is unidirectional. And this
is according to the Qur'an, he says, in which it is said we
become ... A new creation, a new level of existence. 13
All of these ideas influenced Shaykhism's founder, Shaykh Ahmad
al-Ahas'i (1753-1826), although he was not especially fond of
being identified with Sadra.14 As a boy and young man growing up
in the Eastern Arabian province of al-Hasa, he claimed to have
had a series of dreams and visions in which some of the Shi'i
Imams, as well as the Prophet Muhammad, appeared to him and
instructed him. In 1790 he went to Iraq and studied there at a
time in which the question of religious authority dominated
Twelver debate. The Usuliyah held that the Shi'ah must follow a
living mujtahid on matters of faith and practice, while their
opponents, the Akhbariyah, argued that only the hidden 12th Imam
is infallible, sinless, and worthy to be followed. Thus the
Qur'an and the traditions are sufficient to guide Shi'ite
practice.15
According to the article in The Encyclopedia of Religion, because
of his mystical experiences, Shaykh Ahmad agreed with neither
school, but studied under teachers of both parties. However, in
The Shadow of God and the Hidden Imam, Siad Amir Arjomand claims
that Shaykh Ahmad was, in fact, the champion of Akhbari
traditionalism and of 'irfan (gnostic Shi'ism).16 Since this was
a time of tremendous pressure on the Akhbaris, and because the
Shaykhi movement, made free use of dissimulation (taqiyya),17
Arjomand's conclusion does not seem outrageous. Since the victory
of the Usulis put great pressure on the Shaykhis, it is certainly
hard to conceive of Shaykh Ahmad taking a pristinely neutral
position between the schools, and indeed, the evidence of his
later life is one of opposition to the Shi'ite hierarchy.
However, the traditionalist, popular devotional wing of the
Akhbaris themselves had been concerned with stamping out gnostic
philosophy, and succeeded so well that it was rather easy for
orthodox Shi'ism to engulf what remained of the group. Thus a
movement like Shaykh Ahmad's, which revived the high Sufism and
elitist philosophy of the marginalized wing of the Akhbari
movement, put him at odds with these traditionalists as well, and
it is most likely that he walked tightropes in both camp.18
Ahsa'i seems to have been a man of impressive intellectual and
personal gifts. He quickly developed a reputation as a pious
scholar and drew a large following. In 1806 he went to Iran where
his following increased to include both wealthy merchants and
even members of royalty. However, as Said Amir Arjomand notes,
the great problem with gnostic Shi'ism, and that which had been
its early undoing, also dogged his movement, once his charismatic
presence was lost: such movements have great impact on the
literate and skilled artisans, and other such people, but cannot
compete with the qalandar mystagogues and thaumaturgists in
enlisting the masses.19 Thus such movements tend in the end to
become marginalized, and, eventually, extinguished, unless they
can gain and retain the support of those in power. For a time,
probably precisely because of this upper echelon support,
Shaykhism seemed to be doing well.
In Iran, Shaykh Ahmad wrote some of his most important books, and
he very soon began to draw the fire of some of the mujtahids.
Ahsa'i taught that God is unknowable, beyond human comprehension,
even beyond being, despite the Qur'anic teaching that God is also
nearer than the vein in the neck. The radical dichotomy between
the transcendence and immanence of God, Shaykh Ahmad said, can
only be bridged by the haqiqah muhammadiya--the primordial
Muhammadan reality which is the pleroma of the Fourteen
Immaculate Ones, which are Muhammad, Fatima, and the twelve
Imams.20 These intermediaries between God and human beings are
neither God nor human, but might be best compared to a kind of
demiurge, the causal and creative agents of the Primal Will.21 In
Shaykh Ahmad's schema, the Imams are the means by which God is
made known to persons, and through whom come the manifestation of
God's grace to human beings. They had merely taken on human garb,
as it were, to make themselves visible to human beings, and once
this garb was shed, they had resumed their original spiritual
bodies in H9Crqalya, the intermediate, archetypal world of Sadra.
The Shaykh believed that their physical bodies simply reverted to
their elements--decomposed--as opposed to the official view that
the bodies of the Prophet and the Imams were beyond physical
corruption.22
In H9Crqalya, the initiated adept is able to understand things as
they really are, and the soul is transformed through encounter
with the Imams. Here, too, final resurrection occurs, as one
moves by stages in a spiritualized ascent, which has begun with
the mineral, and progressed through the vegetable, animal, human,
and now, one hopes, spiritual. This spiritualized interpretation
of the Resurrection was offensive to some quarters of orthodox
Shi'ism, while others charged that it was possible to interpret
Ahsa'i's schema as divinizing the Imams. Furthermore, Shaykh
Ahmad's views denied the power of the mujtahids, who were then
just finally consolidating their power.
Ahsa'i held that, rather than the authority of the mujatahids,
there was instead a Fourth Support. It was his position that the
five bases of Shi'ism could logically be reduced to three, namely
the knowledge of God, the prophethood, and the Imamate.23 But he
taught that there will always exist the perfect Shi'ah--the
intermediary between Imams and believers. This perfect Shi'ah
receives the grace of the Imams through spiritual vision rather
than discursive Reason as the mujtahids do. Thus the perfect
Shi'ah are immune to error regarding religious truths.24 Since he
believed that the Hidden Imam does not live in occultation in
this world, but dwells instead in H9Crqalya, his manifestation
will not, in fact, occur in this world, but in H9Crqalya.25 Thus
the Fourth Support has a crucial role to fulfill in guiding
believers in this world.
Although Shaykh Ahmad made no specific claims to be this Fourth
Support, he certainly fit the profile as he drew it, claiming I
have derived what I know from the Imams of guidance, and error
cannot find its way into my words, since all that I confirm in my
books is from them and they are preserved from sin, ignorance,
and error. 26 He also claimed to have drunk the saliva of the
Iman Hasan and of the Prophet, thus appropriating their spiritual
power through direct transmission.
The absolute key to Shaykh Ahmad's thinking, and that which was
to have an influence in later Babism, is his Imamology. In Mulla
Sadra's system of progressive ascent, there had been three stages
of return to God, from matter to soul to intellect. In the world
of the intellect, The Imam, the pure intellect, stands next to
God, and is the only intermediary by whom human beings can reach
God.27 In Ahmad's system, there was, like Ibn cArabi, a fourth
stage, the realm of the deity, from which the 14 Pure Ones come
and to which they return. Thus in his system, these appear to be
pre-existent divine beings...the cause of creation, and of
everything that is not God. They fulfill God's wish. 'If it were
not for the Imams, God would not have created anything,' he
wrote.28 He argued that the 14 Pure Ones are the names and
attributes of the divine, and through them, as God's agents,
God's will manifests itself on earth.29 In short, the entire
cosmos exists because the thought of the Imam called it into
being, and it is his attention to it that keeps it going. If he
were to forget, for even a moment, everything that is would
disappear. But it is not that the Imam has a power independent of
God's, but one derived from it, just as an iron bar removed from
the blast furnace still sheds its heat. The Imams act, and
freely, because God made them that way. They possess all the
attributes of God, and all of God's actions are manifested
through them.. They are God's agents: Not the architects of
creation, but its contractors...30
In 1822 Shaykh Ahmad was accused of heresy,31 and despite--or
perhaps because of--the fairly broad appeal of his movement, and
the respect in which he was held, it became increasingly
difficult for him to remain in Iran. Soon thereafter, he left
Iran for Iraq, but controversy continued to swirl around him
there, so he set out for Mecca, but died en route in 1826.
parts 2,3,4 to be continued
From PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.eduThu Nov 16 23:58:30 1995
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 17:27:37 PST8PDT
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: 2 of 4 (Judy's paper on Babism) LONG!
2 of 4
=========================================================================
His appointed successor, Sayyid Kazim Rashti, enlarged the
movement and extended many of Shaykh Ahmad's ideas, producing a
doctrine of salvation history which asserts that there are two
ages to the dispensation of Muhammad. The first is that of
outward observance, during which the shari'a was perfected. The
second began in the twelfth Islamic century (18th century) and is
the period of inward realities and disclosure of esoteric truths.
This led to a sense of millennialst expectation among some
Shaykhis, who looked to the coming full disclosure of the inward
realities and esoteric truths either from the new perfect Shi'ah
or possibly even the long-expected return of the Hidden Imam.32
However, Peter Smith warns that Babi and Baha'i writers may have
exaggerated the millennialism of the Shaykhi leaders, since such
ideas do not appear prominently in their writings. However, he
adds that perhaps the combination of taqiyya and the gnostic
tendencies to limit truth to the inner circle might have led to
heightened millennialist expectations based on oral traditions.
He argues convincingly that the fact that so many Shaykhis
supported later millennialist movements should suggest that such
tendencies must have been very much a part of the movement, at
least among certain groups. 33
Sayyid Kazim died in 1843, in Karbala, without leaving clear
instructions about succession, and the movement fragmented into
several parties. One of these was the party of Sayyid
'Ali-Muhhamad Shirazi, otherwise known to history as the Bab
(Gate) and another was that of Haji Mulla Muhammad Karim Khan
Kirmani, of the city of Kirman, ancestor of the Aga Khan. The
Bab's party tended to focus on the part of Shaykhism which
emphasized inward reality rather than outward practice; Karim
Khan's group emphasized the continuing role of Muhammad and the
prophets and tilted toward the 'Usali' position on law.34 The
enmity borne by this latter group towards the former was so
intense that Shaykhis actually played a leading role in the
theological, judicial, and even physical attacks on the Babis. 35
The Bab was a young, obscure merchant, born Sayyid 'Ali Muhammad
Shirazi in 1819 in Shiraz, in southern Iran. His relationship
with the Shaykhis is a matter of some controversy. Certainly he
lacked the formal education for the role of Shaykhi leader, but
he had been exceptionally pious since boyhood, and had apparently
spent a year at the age of 20 travelling through the shrine
cities of Iraq. During this period he had attended some of Sayyid
Kazim's classes for a period of about seven months, and seems to
have been treated with some considerable attention when he did
so.36 Although Baha'is do not like to claim the Bab as a pupil of
Sayyid Kazim, and he certainly did not complete a course of
study, he himself wrote of Kazim, while the latter was still
alive, as my lord, support, and teacher, and in an early prayer
called himself one of the companions of Kazim. 37 Certainly he
was known to a number of the Shaykhis, though not, apparently, to
Karim Khan, and seems to have been held in some respect by them,
even in Karim Khan's accounts.38
After his year of travel and study, the Bab returned to Shiraz,
married, and seemed to his relieved family to have settled to his
career as a merchant. However, in 1843 and 1844 he had a number
of visions, in one of which he claimed he drank blood from the
severed head of the Imam Husayn, after which the spirit of God
took possession of his soul.39
Actually, the Bab did not come forward with a claim immediately
after Sayyid Kazim's death. For four months, a number Sayyid
Kazim's followers went into seclusion in Karbala, seeking divine
guidance. But one group appears to have become convinced that
before he died, Sayyid Kazim had given a number of intimations
that the advent of the Hidden Imam was momentarily expected. Thus
this coterie was in a fever pitch of eschatological expectations,
seeking signs and events that would suggest he was ready to
arrive. They became convinced that it was imperative for them to
leave Karbala in search of Sayyid Kazim's successor.
The one who led the exodus from Karbala was Mulla Husayn
Bushru'i. He may have been enroute to join Karim Khan Kirmani
when he arrived in Shiraz and met the Bab, who, during the night
of May 22-23, made his earliest claims, which were accepted by
Mulla Husayn. The Bab appears to have had considerable gifts,
some of which were the ability to turn out masses of verses for
hours in what is generally conceded to be rather ungrammatical
Arabic, but with elegant penmanship, and to answer very abstruse
and difficult questions in an exceptionally beautiful voice.
Apparently he exerted a magnetic attraction even on people
disposed to be hostile. Mulla Husayn was not so disposed, and
over a short period, other Shaykhis arrived and accepted the
Bab's claims, until he had named 18 so-called Letters of the
Living, or disciples, most of whom were young seminarians of
humble social standing,40 but also including the radical woman
scholar, Qurratu'l-'Ayn, who was appointed a Letter at a
distance, and who never met the Bab, though they corresponded.41
She was to prove a source of endless controversy for the new
movement. These Letters of the Living were sent out to tell the
people that the Bab l-Imam had arisen--though they were not to
give his name--and to announce that they should expect the advent
of the Qa'im very soon. 42
Though Baha'i sources tend to project the Bab's later claims back
to this earliest period, apparently what he claimed at this time
was less than what he claimed later.43 In this period he
described himself only as the bearer of the esoteric knowledge of
the Imams granted to Shaykh Ahmad and Sayyid Kazim, chosen [by
the Hidden Imam]...from among the peoples of Iran, and the
descendants of the Prophet, in order to protect the Faith of God.
44 At this point in his career, the Bab set himself out as an
interpreter of the Qur'an and required his followers to
faithfully follow all the strictures and duties set out therein,
saying that everything he had ever written was utter nothingness
when compared to one letter of the Qur'an or the words of the
people of the House of Purity [the Imams] . 45 At this time, too,
he also wrote that he did not seek to abrogate any part of the
sharia, saying that to neglect the least of the laws was to
neglect all of the laws.46 He made repeated references to the
imminent arrival of the Imam, and for the whole first year after
his original declaration the entire Babi movement was afire with
messianic expectations, which the Letters of the Living whipped
to a white heat by telling folk that the Imam would soon appear
in Karbala. Certain dates were declared to fulfill the ancient
prophecies of various Muslim groups, including certain Sufi
orders, as well as some Jews.
However in the winter of late 1844 came the first setbacks. One
of the Letters of the Living was sent to the Shah to declare the
Bab's cause, and one to the leading Shi'i cleric, Shaykh Muhammad
Hasan an-Najafi. The Bab, meanwhile, set out for Mecca to
announce himself and his claims to the Sharif. However, the
Letter dispatched to the Shah was unable to secure an audience;
the Letter with the mission to Shaykh Muhammad Hasan was brought
up before a joint tribunal of Shi'i and Sunni ulama and sentenced
to hard labour in the docks for spreading heresy; and the Bab got
absolutely no reaction at all in Mecca. Meanwhile the throngs
gathering in Karbala, many carrying weapons to wage Holy War on
the side of the Imam when he made his advent, waited in vain. The
crucial dates came and went and the Bab was still in Mecca.
Meanwhile the ulama began to step up their campaign against the
new movement, and the disgruntled abandoned the cause. By the
summer of 1845 the only followers the Bab left in Karbala were
those who were able to accept the Bab's changes in plans as bada.
This was a tiny fraction of his original contingents.47
In July, 1845, the Bab returned to Shiraz and was promptly placed
under house arrest because the city was in an uproar over the
addition of the name of 'Ali Muhammad--the Bab--to the call to
prayer by a Babi mujtahid.
In September, 1846, the Bab escaped from the city, and was able
to make some efforts to consolidate the new movement, since he
was at last out in the open. Though he was hampered in his
freedom of movement, he was able to hold audiences with visitors
and carry out a voluminous correspondence, as well as to issue
masses of revelatory writings recorded by several amanuenses.
Many new adherents were attracted to the movement, and in
Karbala, Qurratu'l-'Ayn arrived to rally the decimated Babis of
that city. Her assumption of leadership and radical views split
the Babi community in that city.
At this point, most of the Shaykhi leaders were firmly opposed to
the Bab's radical interpretation of Shaykhism, and several issued
broadsides at the movement. The Babis fought back with polemical
barrages of their own, and in some places, notably Karbala under
the leadership of Qurratu'l-'Ayn, disassociated themselves from
Shaykhism, considering unbelievers those Babis who still
considered themselves Shaykhis.48
The result was that non-Babi Shaykhism aligned itself with
orthodox Shi'ism. Meanwhile the gulf widened between Babism and
Shi'i orthodoxy, especially as the Bab's claim to direct access
to the Imam forced the ulama to either accept the Bab or to
oppose him. Some became Babis, but most opposed Babism, and
campaigns began against it in various areas, but these were
uncoordinated attacks and conditions for the new movement varied
from city to city. However, in various cities fatwas condemning
the Bab to death as an unbeliever were issued as early as 1845,
and although these had no immediate effect, they eventually were
invoked to give clerical support to the orders for his execution
on the part of the state.
In the beginning the state seemed to regarded Babism largely as a
religious, but not a civil problem. Originally, also, the Bab
seems to have seen the Shah as a potential ally, for he declared
that if he were to assist the Bab in establishing his authority,
God's blessings would be great. The Bab therefore sought an
audience, and in 1847 was offered one, but as he came to Tehran
he was seized on order of the Shah's chief minister and exiled to
Maku, a distant border-fortress. This embittered him greatly, and
he wrote letters denouncing the regime and predicting the Day of
Chastisement and the imminent death of the Shah. 49 Still, even
as late as 1848 when the Bab was ordered tried, he received only
the bastinado at the hands of the religious authorities.
Apparently, though the Bab endorsed the concept of jihad, and
called upon Babis to purchase weapons in anticipation of the Day
of Slaughter, when the unbelievers would die and the Imams and
host of heaven aid them, the jihad was never called, and indeed,
as noted, the Bab did not go to Karbala when the masses gathered
there in anticipation of just such a call. Although there are
those who say it was because he miscalculated the distances from
Mecca to Karbala and could not make it in time, 50 the Bab
claimed he did not go because he wished to prevent sedition.51
Whatever the case, it is true that while many Babis engaged in
non-violent missionary activity, others prepared for battle, and
some Babis began openly to wear weapons. Arjomand points out that
there had been a tension in Babism all along between more
moderate faction, among whom he tends to number the Bab, and more
extreme factions. With the imprisonment of the Bab, the control
exercised over the more chiliastic tendencies among the Bab's
followers was weakened.52
Apparently Qurratu'l-'Ayn played a big part in radicalizing the
movement at this juncture. She had been expelled from Karbala and
spent the spring and summer of 1847 riding around western Iran
proclaiming the Bab, finally returning to her home city of Qazvin
in the summer. Here she refused to have any relationship with her
husband, whom she regarded as a ritually impure unbeliever. This
outraged her uncle, the father of her husband and a very
powerful ulama. (It was he who had declared Shaykh Ahmad a
heretic in 1825.) He punished Qurratu'l-'Ayn for her
intransigence by having all the leading local Babis rounded up
and bastinadoed. Soon after, in October, 1847, he was murdered in
the mosque, and several local Babis were charged with the crime.
Though they denied it, they were executed for it anyway, and a
large-scale persecution was launched throughout the district.
Qurratu'l-'Ayn was carried off to safety in Tehran by her fellow
Babis; the upshot was that the reputation of Babis as violent and
dangerous enemies of the ulama was fairly sealed.53
In latter part of 1847 or early part of 1848, the Bab declared
himself, from prison, to be the Imam Mahdi, the promised Qa'im,
the inaugurator of the Resurrection, and the abrogator of the
Islamic holy law.54 This was the decisive breaking point, for the
Mahdi had been expected to be the one who would consolidate the
shari'a and reaffirm the Muhammadan order. 55 But the Bab clearly
was replacing the past Dispensation with a new order--a new
creation. 56 Concurrently, he revealed a new code of laws, the
Bayan, though this law book was not widely circulated, even among
his close followers.57
In the summer of 1848, as mentioned, the Bab proclaimed to the
tribunal of the Ulama that he was the Mahdi and was ridiculed and
bastinadoed. His followers, meanwhile, had gathered at Badrasht,
a isolated village, to make plans to free him, and this meeting
proved to be decisive for many. For some, hearing for the first
time at this gathering that Islamic law was abrogated was
devastating to their Babi faith; others interpreted it as
license, and a certain breath of scandal hangs over the meeting
among enemies of Babism, though it is not clear what, if any,
goings on took place. It is agreed by all, however, that
Qurratu'l-'Ayn appeared unveiled in public. This satisfied those
who saw antinominalism as a messianic act, as well as those who
like their symbolism strong and simple.58 Qurratu'l-'Ayn was the
first Persian woman in modern times who advocated unveiling on
her own initiative, and she seemed to be offering some sort of
nascent feminist challenge to the inferior position of women. She
had a circle of followers, especially women, but many Babis were
horrified. and outraged. 59
It has already been noted that the Bab was imprisoned for so long
that his disciples came to exercise considerable authority. This
was an understandable outgrowth, not just of the circumstances,
but of the Bab's theology. If the Bab were, not just the Mahdi,
but the manifestation of the Divine Will, then it was possible to
see the Letters of the Living as the return, in some way, of
Muhammad, Fatima, 'Ali, the Twelve Imams, and the Four Babs.60
This accounts for Qurratu'l-'Ayn's presence among the Letters--
she is Fatima--and, indeed, she appears to have claimed divine
status of some sort at the meeting at Badrasht, if not earlier,61
as did another Letter, Mulla Muhammad 'Ali Barfurushi, called
after Badrasht Quddus. Quddus seems to have claimed to be the
Qa'im--the nuqti-yi ukhra (Last Point of Revelation) after the
Bab claimed to be the nuqti-yi ula (The Primal Point), while
another Letter picked up the title Bab, since the Bab had dropped
it. It appears that all three of these disciples felt they shared
authority with the Bab, that the role of Qa'im was a role they
could perform, or an attribute to be transferred.62 Another
effect of the Bab's higher claims was that the more conservative
Babis left the movement. Those who remained tended to be the most
radical. This applied to those who were politically more radical
as well as those with radical religious convictions. If his
claims were accepted, the Bab now posed a direct challenge to
both secular and religious authorities. And when, on September 4,
1848, the Shah died, chaos ensued throughout Iran until the new
regime could secure control. Sometime in October, 1848, a group
of Babis who were going around the countryside proclaiming their
faith were set upon by the people of a town. A battle broke out
in which blood was shed on both sides, and eventually the Babis
were forced to barricade themselves in a shrine.
They were besieged in the shrine at Tabarsi for seven months.
Eventually about 600 other Babis made their way there to help
defend the shrine, many of them ulama and theological students
with a deep attachment to the Shi'i ideas of martyrdom. They were
not thinking in terms of practical objectives, in that sense, for
a heroic defense and martyrdom was not impractical in their
theological understanding. But they also may have hoped that
success would complete the proof and lead to general acceptance
of the Bab and establishment of the Babi theocracy. However, this
did not happen, and when the starved survivors finally
surrendered in a declared truce, they were massacred or taken
into slavery.63
Many of the Letters of the Living died at Tabarsi, as well as
other leaders. Leaders who were left in various areas were on
their own, and some reacted by pressing for continued fighting.
In July, 1850, the government, tired of it all, had the Bab
executed.
With this, the movement sustained a near-fatal blow.
parts 3,4 to be continued
From PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.eduThu Nov 16 23:58:34 1995
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 17:33:08 PST8PDT
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: 3 of 4 (Judy's paper on Babism) LONG!
3 of 4
=========================================================================
The Bab's apparent successor was not one of the Letters, but a
nineteen year old called Subh-i Azal. He was apparently of a
retiring--or gentle--or introverted--or cowardly disposition,
depending upon whose account is to be credited. Certainly the
loss of most of the leadership, and the Bab, and his own
inexperience created a very difficult situation for one so young,
and resulted in a very fragmented movement. The tendency to grab
for millennial titles still continued, a popular one being
Man-yuhiuh'u'llah: The One Whom God Will Manifest. Miller says
that this tendency to claim to be a manifestation of God was due
to a misunderstanding of the Bab's claims by some: they thought
the Bab claimed to be the Twelfth Imam, in which case it was
natural to look now for the coming of Imam Husayn. This
expectation was tagged onto the announcement by the Bab that
after him would come another, much greater, called
Man-yuhiuh'u'llah: He Whom God Will Manifest. But the Bab did not
claim to be the Twelfth Imam, but to be a Major Manifestation in
his own right. According to the Bab's own teachings, the next
Manifestation was not due for another 1511 years 64. However a
vague prophecy--in the year nine ye will attain to all good--
seems to have been sufficient for some, dating the year One from
the Bab's first declaration. It is on this interpretation that
the claim of Baha'u'llah is made, though Baha'ism recognizes the
Bab as a Manifestation of God as well. 65
At any rate, the movement was still reeling when a clumsy attempt
was made on the life of the new Shah by a group of Babis. The
result was the execution of many of the few remaining leaders--
Qurratu'l-'Ayn was supposedly strangled with a white scarf 66--
and Subh-i Azal was forced to go into hiding. 67 The movement was
now thoroughly demoralized, fragmented, and demonized. It seemed
to be, for all practical purposes, dead.
Amanat points out that the Babi theodicy guaranteed their
ultimate triumph, even if its realization meant the sacrifice of
the Bab and the annihilation of the entire community. 68 The
Babis were the heirs to the Shi'ite legacy of martyrdom and
sacrifice. They were also caught in a myth, or almost, a divine
play based on the past. Every action which took place was
correlated to the sacred play in which all were actors.69 For
this reason, as well as its insistence on militancy, this would
have been a religion almost impossible to institutionalize,
especially when one realizes that the Bayan was harsher, and
stricter, and more difficult to enforce than most of the existing
Shari'a. Further, it was the radical social critics who were the
most fiercely loyal to the end. Babism was the product of a
crucial juxtaposition in Persian history. It was a religion with
powerful ties to the past, and one which was also in a state of
unremitting resistance to the ruling elite.70 It was not
especially influenced by Western ideas, but grew out of the need
for a new paradigm in the face of encroaching Westernization.71
As Babism, however, it was nearly dead by the mid-1850's. The
quiet, reserved Subh-i Azal simply was not capable of satisfying
the needs of the devastated movement, used to charismatic
leadership with claims to very high status, especially since he
was forced to spend years in hiding and under an assumed name.
But with the appearance of a charismatic leader capable of
coherently reworking the doctrines of Babism so that the religion
continued on the trajectory set by the Bab, as the completion of
the millennial expectations of all religions, but without the
doctrine of militancy,72 a new chapter came to be written after
all. This leader was Baha'u'llah, half-brother of Subh-i Azal. He
had the toughness, charisma--and, say the Azalis, ambition and
ruthlessness--that his much younger half-brother lacked. In any
case, within two decades a quite unexpected result took place.
>From the ashes of Babism rose what now claimed itself to be a New
World Religion: the Baha'i Faith. But the first steps out of
Islam had already been taken years before: Baha'u'llah's mission
was to refine and redefine Babism so that it could survive and
even flourish, but it was not necessary for him to make the
decisive break with Islam. That the Bab had already accomplished.
part 4 (notes) to be continued
From PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.eduThu Nov 16 23:58:43 1995
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 17:37:11 PST8PDT
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: 4 of 4 (Judy's paper on Babism) LONG!
4 of 4
=========================================================================
Notes
1. An account by Denis MacEoin is instructive in this regard:
Kalimat Press was a Los Angeles-based and Baha'i-managed press
which had published his survey of Baha'i literature fifteen years
earlier.
When the press approached MacEoin with the project of revising
and republishing the text, he agreed to do so. He made
corrections, added fresh information, and rewrote several
passages. For two years publication was mysteriously delayed.
Then he learned that American Baha'i authorities had banned
publication altogether, and that Kalimat Press had experienced
ongoing pressure from Baha'i authorities and the blacklisting of
several of its titles. (Denis MacEoin, The Sources for Early
B'abi Doctrine and History, preface, i)
2. Though into my hands came, too late for me to read it all,
though I have relied on it in sections, what seems to be a very
good book on the B'abis by Abbas Amanat, Resurrection and
Renewal, which is put out by Cornell University Press and seems
to have a very subtle and interesting grasp of the issues raised
in B'abism as a challenge to certain tendencies in both Shi'ite
theology and the encroaching modernization of Persia in the
middle of the last century. The book is sympathetic, but not
sycophantic, in its portrayal of B'abism, and would probably be
of interest to scholars interested in the general field, not just
B'abism.
3. Seyyed Hossein Nasr, et al, Shi'ism Doctrines, Thought, and
Spirituality, p. 94
4. ibid
5. ibid
6. ibid
7. ibid, p. 95
8. ibid
9. John Esposito, Islam, p.121. Ibn cArabi's thinking can
seemingly lead to a kind of ontological monism, since if the
fourth realm is God and the seeker is drawing closer and closer
to that realm, then it is easy to construct a world view in which
nothing really exists but God, God is coextensive with the
universe, and the unity with God is an ontological reality, not a
subjective experience. This may be one reason why Baha'is tend to
discourage speculation about the afterlife, since they have some
notion of a similar assent to God, which is largely only hinted
at.
One suspects that, once again, as is so common in mystical
speech, lack of an appropriate vocabulary may be, in part, the
problem. It might seem that the distinction may be that between
pantheism and what Matthew Fox in his Creation Spirituality has
popularized as panentheism. Admittedly, I am not sure that
drawing this distinction would be any more satisfying to the
legalists and traditionalists than his attempts have proved to
be.
10. Said Amir Arjomand, The Shadow of God and the Hidden Imam, p.
149
11. ibid, p. 150
12. ibid, 151
13. Nasr, Shi'ism, p. 95
14. ibid
15 .Stephen Scholl, Encyclopedia of Religion, Shaykhiyah, pp.
230-232, Volume 13.
16. Arjomani, The Shadow of God, p. 252
17. Peter Smith, The B'abi and Baha'i Religions, p. 12
18. Arjomand, Shadow of God, p. 153
19. ibid, p. 155
20. Shaykhiyah, Ency. of Religion, Vol..13, 231
21. Peter Smith, The B'abi and Baha'i Religions, p. 11
22. Nasr, Shi'ism, p. 96
23. Since none of God's attributes can be denied by a believer,
the starting point is Knowledge of God. Thus God's unity and
God's justice are included in knowledge of God, while
resurrection is a consequence of both God's attribute of justice,
and belief in the Prophet and the truths of his teachings; the
centrality of the Imamate to the Shaykh's teaching are already
apparent. (see Denis MacEoin's article, Shaykhi Reactions to the
B'ab for a discussion of Karim Khan's exposition of Shaykhi
teachings on the three bases, and his own reworking of the
doctrine of the Fourth Support (p. 35).
24.Shaykhiyah, Ency. of Religion, Vol..13, 231
25. Nasr, Shi'ism, p. 97
26. Cited in Peter Smith, The B'abi and Baha'i Religions, p. 12
27. Nasr, Shi'ism, p. 98
28. ibid
29. ibid, p. 99.
30. ibid
31. My sources somewhat part company on the outcome, the
Encyclopedia of Religion stating that most of the 'ulama'
remained neutral or sympathetic, the main effect being that he
and his followers came to feel somewhat embattled, and
increasingly identified themselves as a separate school within
Shi'ism. In Denis MacEoin's article, Early Shaykhi Reactions to
the B'ab and His Claims, in Studies in B'abi and Baha'i History,
the flat statement is made (p. I) that Shaykh Ahmad , and his
successor, had been excommunicated. In The Shadow of God,
Arjomand states that Shaykh Ahmad and his followers were forced
to become a sect through expulsion from Twelver Shi'ism by the
triumphant Usalis, who emerged as the guardians of Shi'ite
orthodoxy. ( p. 252)
32. Shaykhiyah, Ency. of Religion, Vol..13, 231
33. Peter Smith, The B'abi and Baha'i Religions, pp. 12-13
34. Shaykhiyah, Ency. of Rel. p. 232
35. MacEoin, Shaykhi Reactions..., p. 11. One reason for this
enmity, quite aside from the dispute over succession, was the
fact that the B'abis were soon identified as insurrectionists.
This made the situation very dangerous for Shaykhis, since the
B'abis made clear their continuing attachment to, and linkage
with, Shaykh Ahmad and Sayyid Kazim, referring to them as the two
preceding Babs. The followers of Karim Khan wanted to be clearly
delineated in the public mind from B'abis, to avoid any untoward
incidents. Thus the rush to orthodoxy and participation in the
anti-B'abi movement. (ibid, p. 10)
36. Smith, p. 14.
37. MacEoin, Shaykhi Reactions, p. 15
38. ibid, p. 16
39. Smith, P. 14
40. Arjomand, The Shadow of God, p. 254
41. In The Shadow of God and the Hidden Imam, Arjomand notes that
B'abism had a positively cabalistic focus on letters and numbers,
and points out the many similarities between them and the
Hurufiyya sect of the end of the 14th/8th century Iran. This
group taught that revelation from God occurs in cycles, and that
since words emanate from God, human beings, as God's vicars, can
gain knowledge of God through a scientific, cabalistic
interpretation of the letters of the alphabet in their various
combinations. They emphasized the human role as vicar of God,
placing in the Adhan the phrase I testify that Adam is the vicar
of God prior to the phrase about the prophethood of Muhammad. The
B'abis saw the Letters of the Living as the incarnation of
significant letters, and thus a sign of a new cycle of divine
manifestation. It is significant that the name Qurratu'l-Ayn was
also the name taken by the martyred daughter of the founder of
the Hurufi movement. (Arjomand, p. 254). Smith notes that the
B'abis also used talismans and other forms of occultism and
magic, though he insists that B'abi leaders de-emphasized
miracles when compared to the popular Shi'ism of the time, and
that their use of allegory regarding the Resurrection, for
example, tended to undercut some kinds of beliefs in
miracles.(Smith, p. 38.)
42. ibid, p. 15
43. Although Smith argues that the B'ab's later claims are
already hinted at in his earlier writings, and thus no secret to
his followers. He points out that even in his earliest works, the
B'ab laid claim to a uniquely high status, asserting that while
claiming to be the bearer and successor, he defined Babhood so
that to visit the B'ab was the same as to visit God on God's
throne; to follow the B'ab was the same as following God; to obey
the B'ab was the same as obeying God. To reject the B'ab was to
reject the only path to the Imam and was also rejection of
Muhammad and the Quran. Further, the B'ab claimed that his first
book was a descent of divine revelation, which again goes beyond
the status of the Imams. (pp. 14 and 15) However, MacEoin argues
that to read back the B'ab's later, more developed claims into
his earlier ones distorts the pattern of the B'ab's thinking.
MacEoin says that the B'ab did not claim to be other than the
bearer of knowledge, like Sayyid Kazim, and that he did not claim
to be the bearer of any other cause.
Furthermore, the B'ab goes on to say that the days of his
Proof were fast approaching--that is, that the hidden Imam would
appear.. He also claimed that some of his early writings were
sent to him in revelation from the Twelfth Imam, who had received
them from God. (MacEoin, Shaykhi Reactions, pp. 17-18) However,
MacEoin demonstrates that Karim Kahn was very early on able to
extract from the B'ab's writings, using logic and inductive
reasoning, a variety of claims, such as Imam, prophet, and even
divinity (uluhiyya) (p. 34.). MacEoin notes that it is ironic
that Karim Khan was able to detect these claims and condemn them
several years before the B'ab himself explicitly made them, for
although most of the B'ab's Shaykhi followers did not heed Kazim
Khan's warnings at this time, several years later, when the B'ab
elevated his claims, many of his Shaykhi followers abandoned him
on more or less the same grounds on which Karim Khan had
originally rested his condemnation. (pp. 34-35)
44. MacEoin, Shaykhi Reactions, P. 18
45. ibid
46. ibid., p. 19. This last was in a letter to Qurratu'l-Ayn, who
was very anxious to have the sharia abrogated, according to
MacEoin.
47. Smith, p. 16-17
48. ibid, p. 18
49. ibid, 22
50. MacEoin, Shaykhi Reactions, p. 32, says that this was the
theory of Karim Khan
51. Although MacEoin notes that at the time, the B'ab seems to
have said it was because God was angry, on account of unbelief
and attacks on God's messengers, and thus had ordered a
postponement of five years to let human beings increase in sin.
(Shaykhi Reactions, p. 23)
52. Arjomand, p. 255
53. Smith, p. 22
54. ibid, 23
55.Abbas Amanat, Resurrection and Renewal, p. 376
56, ibid, p. 376-377. The Bab announced that the old cycle of
prophecy is ended (the yearning of fifty thousand years is now
fulfilled.) and that henceforth his followers were not to go to
mosques.
57. Smith points out that in Epistle to the Son of the Wolf,
Baha'u'llah claims never to have seen a copy. (Smith, P. 72.)
However, MacEoin notes in The Sources for Early B'abi Doctrine
and History that Baha'u'llah reported that a copy in the
handwriting of the B'ab's amanuensis survived, as well as another
in a different hand, and that he, MacEoin, has been able to
locate fifty copies of the manuscript by 1992, and is sure he
could double this number. (p. 84) This seems like a discrepancy,
and it is very odd to imagine that Baha'u'llah would never have
sought to see a copy.
In any case, at this point, the movement had gone beyond the
borders of Islam. It was now a new religion. Early B'abism had
emphasized Muslim orthopraxy to the point of pietistic
strictness. B'abis had to say extra prayers, abstain from
smoking, keep a three month fast, and so on. But when the Sharia
was abrogated and the B'ab introduced the Bayan, there were two
results. One was that some heard about the abrogation but not
about the details of the Bayan, and practiced antinomianism; the
other is that since there were few copies of the Bayan available,
it was difficult for it to be followed. In the Bayan the B'ab set
forth special B'abi prayer forms, defined ritual purity in terms
of physical cleanliness and spiritual purity, said that only
believers could live in B'abi states. Non-B'abi books were to be
destroyed. Contact and intermarriage with unbelievers was
forbidden. All B'abis were to marry at the age of eleven.
Polygamy was discouraged and divorce required a year of waiting.
(Smith, pp. 34-35)
58. The truth must be unveiled: that non-B'abis were no longer
Muslims, were ritually impure, and could no longer be consorted
with. Only those who could look at the naked face of truth were
the spiritually elite. (Sort of like the Emperor's New Clothes
pulled backwards through a knothole.)
59. Abbas Amanat, Resurrection and Renewal, p. 304 Amanat points
out that Qurratu'l-'Ayn applied the concept of fatra--the period
between messengers--to her age, and thus saw it as necessary to
break the rules of both custom and devotion to grasp the signs of
the new Zuhar. (p. 304.) For example, she appeared on the first
of Muharram, 1845, the month of mourning for Shi'ite martyrs, in
colourful clothing, and unveiled for the feast, saying that they
should be celebrating the birthday of the Bab. (p. 305) She seems
to have been among the first to see the Bab's mission as being a
manifestation apart from Islam. (p. 306)
60. Joel Bjorling, The Baha'i Faith, p. 6, says: Baha'is insist
that the B'ab was only a forerunner of Baha'u'llah, who is
considered to be the major manifestation of God. It has been
admitted by Baha'is that the B'ab was a 'twin' Manifestation to
Baha'u'llah, but it seems evident from examining Baha'i teachings
that the purpose of the Bab was to provide the way for
Baha'u'llah's revelation. The B'ab did teach a further revelation
beyond himself, but as Miller, Wilson, and Whalen point out, this
Manifestation would not appear for 1511 to 2001 years after his
declaration.
61. Amanat, Resurrection and Renewal, p. 304. She saw herself as
the manifestation of Fatima, whose sight is purifying, and would
have the B'abis bring food from the market to her so that she
might purify it by gazing on it. (She had declared that food
bought from infidels--unbelievers--could not be consumed by her
people unless it had been purified.) (pp. 303-304)
62. ibid, 25 Smith also points out (p. 43) that it was possible
to see the Letters of the Living as, not just reenacting roles in
a dispensational drama, but as re-embodiments of former
personages. and this, he notes, is very close to the notion of
metempsychosis, a heresy not uncommon in heterodox Shi'ism.
63. ibid, 26-27
64. Miller, The Baha'i Faith, p. 78
65. Smith argues that it was the Azalis who interpreted the
coming of the Manifestation as a long way off, and that most
B'abis seemed to expect an early Messianic fulfillment. He points
out that the Bab also said that only God knew when he would
arise. A problem, of course, is why God would send two
Manifestations so close together, and have the second abrogate
much of the work of the first, but the Baha'i answer is that it
shows how important the manifestation is, and that the task of
the B'ab was to initiate the break with Islam; once this was
done, God's new revelation could be clearly presented to minds
receptive to it without the lingering cobwebs of Islamic thought
patterns and world view. The Azali answer is shorter: God didn't.
66. One is forced, with some regret, to agree with Smith's
assessment of her: less a feminist forerunner than a
dyed-in-the-wool religious zealot. (p. 47) One suspects her of
being rather more like Joan of Arc than anyone else.
67 Smith, p. 30
68. Amanat, p. 410
69. ibid, 409
70. However, Fischer points out, in The Baha'i Faith and Islam,
p. 33, that the B'abi movement was a mixture of progressive ideas
and initiatives and reactionary theocratic concepts--equality of
men and women, reduction of clerical powers, more equitable
distribution of land--and theosophically graded human beings,
ending in a pyramid with the B'ab, or Point, at the apex, a pure
B'abi land, seizure of land of unbelievers and an emphasis on
charity rather than radical redistribution of wealth to the poor.
71. Amanat, p. 413
72. What Baha'u'llah did was to domesticate the three themes of
B'abism: progressive revelation and a new dispensation,
conditional recognition of temporal authority, and the
this-worldliness of human salvation (one must act here to stand
with the forces of light, and resurrection begins here. To
recognize and work on the behalf of the manifestation of God on
earth was to enter the community of light here and now; Hell was
also here, for those who remain in the fire of their denial..
Thus one seeks and finds salvation and rebirth here.)( Amanat, p.
408. See also Fischer, p. 34, quoting Qurratu'l-'Ayn: Oh people,
there will be no resurrection except that resurrection which you
institute in the way of truth. Paradise and hell for you are in
this world.) The original Babi message is one of personal and
community regeneration, and unceasing activism and struggle and
the constant possibility of new revelation, to which one must
always remain open. But Baha'u'llah and his heirs were
revisionist, reformist, liberal. They abandoned Babi militancy so
completely that in these days Baha'is portray Babi militancy as
rare, aberrational, purely defensive, or, where it cannot be
denied, as in the attempt on the life of the Shah, as the product
of a few deranged minds unhinged by terrible persecution.
Thus, it was not difficult for later Baha'is to integrate
their movement into Western liberal religious and social ideas,
basically progressive, non-violent and non-political, emphasizing
in great part that theirs is a religion of ethical and moral
prescriptions, such as equality of the races and sexes, one world
language, world government, and so on. They became, as Fischer
describes them, Quietistic and syncretistic. (p. 35, The Baha'i
Faith and Islam) One can readily find Baha'i works which claim to
prove that Baha'u'llah and Baha'ism are the fulfillment of
Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, etc., as well as the
Abrahamic faiths. Furthermore, Baha'u'llah removed the risk of
new revelation by declaring it impossible for the next thousand
years that God would send a new Manifestation; as well, the next
500 millennia are regarded as the Baha'i Dispensation.
The Azalis sought for awhile longer to keep the spirit of
militancy alive long, to refuse to compromise, and to remain
activist, sometimes dissident, but they too moved in the
direction of European-style social criticism. and since they were
smaller and weaker, they are, at this point, practically a
footnote.
Bibliography
Amanat, Abbas, Resurrection and Renewal: The Making of the Babi
Movement in Iran, 1844-1850. Cornell: Cornell University Press.
1989.
Arjomand, Said Amir The Shadow of God and the Hidden Imam:
Religion, Political Order, and Societal Change in Shi'ite Iran
from the Beginning to 1890. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
1984.
Bjorling, Joel, The Baha'i Faith: A Historical Bibliography, New
York: Garland. 1985
Eliade, M.. Encyclopedia of Religion, Shaykhiyah, by Stephen
Scholl, Volume 13.
Esposito, John, Islam: The Straight Path. Oxford: Oxford
University Press. 1992.
MacEoin, Denis The Sources for Early Babi Doctrine and History:
A Survey. Leiden, New York, Koln: E.J. Brill. 1992.
Miller, William The Baha'i Faith: Its History and Teachings.
South Pasadena, Calif.: William Carey Library. 1974.
Moayyad, Heshmat, The Baha'i Faith and Islam, Social Change and
Mirrors of Tradition, by Michael M. J. Fischer Ottowa, Asociation
for Baha'i Studies. 1990.
Momen, Moojan, ed. Studies in Babi and Baha'i History, Early
Shaykhi Reactions to the Bab and his Claims, by Denis MacEoin,
Los Angeles: Kalimat Press, 1982.
Nasr, Seyyed Hossein, et al, Shi'ism Doctrines, Thought, and
Spirituality, New York: State University of New York Press. 1988
Smith,Peter , The Babi and Baha'i Religions: From Messianic
Shi'ism to a World Religion. Cambridge: Cambridge University
Press. 1987.
Smith, Peter, The Baha'i Religion: A Short Introduction to its
History and Teaching, Oxford:: George Ronald, 1988.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 09:26 PST
From:
To:
Cc: jrcole@umich.edu,
Subject: Juan Cole's material
Thanks for sending Juan's material. Here are some comments.
I will send this to Juan Cole and my son in law
**********************************************************************
>. Friends: In my work on human rights in Baha'i scriptures and within
> the Baha'i Faith, I have gradually come to realize that there is no
> written-down legal code governing when and whether a Baha'i's
> administrative rights may be removed.
Trying to attempt a leagl frame work (particularly in terms of an
American model) is not a good idea. I believe that each case
needs to be given the necessary time and energy by LSAs and
NSAs by its members or appropriate staff. Removal of administrative
sanctions should be rare and effective when invooked and just.
**************************************************************
> The beloved Guardian disapproved of removing administrative rights
>. for any but the most weighty reasons. "If such sanctions were lightly
> used the friends would come to attach no importance to it, or to feel
> the NSA used it every time they got angry with some individual's
> disobedience to them." (Lights of Guidance, [hereafter LOG], p. 49).
There is very good wisdom in Guardian's reluctance to remove rights
for the very reason stated here. One has to take the energy and time
to unpoliticise the wrath of LSA members or NSA members. The case
in point is a rather recent event in our own LSA when we got very upset
at the Assistant to ABM for protection, but got couselled by Jaci Delahunt
that it was important to learn to work together and allow each unit to do its
job as it sees best, but express the concerns in an appropriate manner,
i.e.,
when cooler heads prevail.
**********************************************************************
> I have a list of Membership statistics from National date April, 1979,
> for the U.S. It shows 75, 448 Baha'is with administrative rights and
> 1,948 (nearly 2,000!!) without administrative rights. This is an
> expulsion rate of 2.5%. But note that Baha'is with known addresses
> were only 48,357, and the ones who were expelled ipso facto belonged
> to the group the NSA could find. So the true percentage of the active
> community expelled was more like 4 % or one in every 25 persons.
> Obviously, this is quite high. It would be like having 3,200,000 U.S.
> Catholics excommunicated. I do not know what the percentages are
> today.
Trying to analyze the data in this manner is a very poor way to look at
the problem. Being a young Faith in an alien culture such as the
American culture, it is not surprising at all that these numbers are
high. Trying to compare it with the Catholics is somewhat absurd in
my opinion bacause it compares apples and oranges.
****************************************************************************
> The problem is that many actions are frowned upon in the Baha'i faith
> in varying degrees. Smoking is frowned upon but not sanctioned. I
> know of no one who has has their administrative rights taken away for
> smoking. What about backbiting? Lying? These are prohibited.
> Should they be the grounds for removal of administrative rights?
>
> It is highly undesirable that this important matter remain so vague. It
> is very difficult to specify human rights if the law itself is unspecific.
What makes more sense to me is that the standards set by Baha'u'llah
should be known in no uncertain terms; not wishy washy - as an example
when there is an obvious violation of Baha'i law such as cohabitation, the
directives from the House of Justice are very clear - work with the couple
involved showing gentleness, firmness and love and concern all at the same
time and this is not easy to do. (Having a set of rules to work by is an
easy thing to do; you don't have to think but just look up chapter and verse
and throw the book on people; justice involves many characteristics blending
together - love, compassion, firmness, wisdom, image of the Faith etc.
****************************************************************************
************
> I would argue that administrative rights may only be taken away for
> specific acts contrary to Baha'i law in the Aqdas and its supplements.
> Some NSAs in the world have started employing the removal of
> administrative rights as a control mechanism, to silence Baha'is, which
> is a derogation of their right, guaranteed by the beloved Guardian, to
> declare their conscience and express their views.
> I'd like to see a legal code specifying actionable offenses. To that
> end, I have drawn up the following. Additions and comments are
> welcome.
> cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
Trying to having a legal code written presents some unique problems -
1. The documents can only be general principles, and not specific
details as the latter would compromise the confidentiality of the
relationship between the believer and the Spiritual Assembly (Local
or National)
2. It will fail to consider needs for the nurturing of individuals in
the family
of Baha'u'llah. As an example, in west we were not required to pay
Huquq'ullah for nearly 100 years, alcoholism in a predominantly native
American community by nature has to be dealt differently; cremation
would be big issue in oriental societies such as India, Japan, etc.
****************************************************************************
**************
> Grounds for Removal of Administrative Rights of a Baha'i
> I. General principles and agencies for removal of rights
> "Those who conspicuously disgrace the Faith or refuse to abide by its
> laws can be deprived, as a punishment, of their voting rights . . ."
> Shoghi Effendi, Dawn of a New Day, p. 128.
The operating words here are "can be deprived, as a punsihment";
> The right to decide who has the voting privilege is also ultimately
> placed in the hands of the National Spiritual Assembly...(Baha'i
> Administration, page 80)
> In Dawn of a New Day, page 111, Shoghi Effendi's secretary says that
> local assemblies 'should certainly never' be allowed to
> decide cases regarding the removal of voting rights because
> 'personal feelings might colour the Assembly's decision.'
> [Sen McGlinn commented that "The same naturally applies to the
> national assembly incases in which its members or the assembly itself
> are personally involved."]
> "If such sanctions were lightly used the friends would come to attach
> no importance to it, or to feel the NSA used it every time they got
> angry with some individual's disobedience to them." (LOG, p. 49).
These are areas where the National Assemblies need to gently educate the
friends as to take their responsibilties. In the last 5 months we faced
three
such cases and each case was resolved positively by the compassion
shown by the LSA; people involved ranged in ages from 17 to 55 and the
one who was least cooperative was the 55 year old one. This is where
there is a lot of room for NSAs to establish reliable and solid trainers to
develop people skills to handle various aspects of people's problems.
***************************************************************************
> II. Specific Infractions
> Prolonged and flagrant use of alcohol (Lights of Guidance, p. 39).
> Flagrant homosexuality disgracing to the Cause. (Lights of Guidance,
> p. 40).
> Blatant extra-marital relationships. (Lights of Guidance, p. 41).
> Being found guilty by a civil court of criminal offenses that
> conspicuously disgrace the Faith. (Lights of Guidance, p. 41).
> Marriage without the consent of parents. (SE, Directives, p. 40).
> Having a civil marriage only. (Lights of Guidance, p. 42).
> Taking a marriage vow contrary to Baha'i principles, such as, in a
> Catholic ceremony, promising to raise the children Catholic (Lights of
> Guidance, p. 42).
> Being party to a non-Baha'i religious marriage ceremony wherein one
> conceals or denies one's Baha'i faith. (Lights of Guidance, p. 42).
> Giving one's consent, as a parent, to a religious marriage ceremony in
> which one's child conceals or denies his or her Baha'i faith. (Lights of
> Guidance, p. 42).
> In case of divorce, marriage to a third party within the year of
> patience. (Lights of Guidance, p. 40)
> Refusal to dissociate oneself from political activities; acceptance
> political office (Lights of Guidance, p. 33).
> Refusal to dissociate oneself from [non-Baha'i] ecclesiastical activities;
> acceptance of ecclesiastical office. (Lights of Guidance, p. 33).
> Membership in Freemasonry (Directives, p. 26)
> Membership in Theosophical, Rosicrucian and similar societies.
> Membership in secret societies. (Lights of Guidance, p. 43).
> Refusal to accept election to an administrative post. (Lights of
> Guidance, p. 32).
> Repeated absence from Assembly meetings with no valid excuse.
> (Shoghi Effendi, Dawn of a New Day, p. 79).
> Incapacity by virtue of mental illness. (S.E., Directives, p. 42)
> An attitude of contempt for Baha'i law can prolong the sentence.
> (LOG, p. 50).
This certainly is a good start of a list of infractions. The key for the
Spiritual Assembly to find out is whether there was a flagrant disregard
to Baha'i standards or a naive belief that there are good things in many
organizations (the recent experience of many Baha'is around the country
belonging to Beyond War movement comes to mind - Baha'is eneterd it
to convert everybody!!). What is needed is get the point across that
Spiritual Assemblies have a dual purpose promologate new procedures
in a community and adminsiter justice. These bring different
responsibilities
and need to enkindle these responsibilities to the friends.
****************************************************************************
**************
> Recently in some Baha'i communities infractions such as "Making a
> false statement about an NSA member, even in private" [or a
> statement alleged by an NSA to be false] appear to have been added to
> this list. Do any of you know of particular cases that would expand
> the list to cover actual contemporary practice?
I could add here
child abandonment, or refusing to educate one's children, child abuse,
domestic violence, unwillingness to resolve difficulties, open challenge
of Adminsitrative instituitions.
******************************************************************************
> III. Consequences
> Consequences: Cannot attend Feast or other meetings for Baha'is
> only; cannot vote or hold Baha'i office; cannot contribute to the Fund;
> cannot be married in a Baha'i ceremony (LOG, p. 45, 50). *May* be
> buried in a Baha'i ceremony and may receive Baha'i charity (LOG, p.
> 46).
In addition the individuals may be shunned by Baha'is.
****************************************************************************
********
> IV. Terms for reinstatement of administrative rights.
> The Assembly should feel that the person is "truly repentant." (LOG,
> p. 49).
> "If the voting rights have been removed justifiably it is generally
> sufficient for the believer to take the necessary actions to have them
> restored; his application for restoration and compliance with the
> requirements of Baha'i law are sufficient evidence of repentance.
> However, if the Assembly sees that the believer does not understand
> the reason for the deprivation and has a rebellious attitude it should
> endeavour to make the matter clear to him. If his attitude is one of
> contempt for the Baha'i law and his actions have been in serious
> violation of its requirements, the Assembly may even be justified in
> extending the period of deprivation beyond the time of the rectification
> of the situation--but such cases, by their nature, are very rare."
> (LOG, p. 50).
> [Some NSA's have begun asking for "personal, public apologies" to
> NSA members as a requirement for reinstatement of rights. This does
> not appear to be justified by the Guardian's guidelines.]
I do not have the quote here, but in the Assembly Development Program
developed during the 70's by Dan Jordan and Staff, there were several
sections concerning judicial fucntions; I will quote these at a later time.
*******************************************************************************
******************************
From cfarhoum@osf1.gmu.eduFri Nov 17 01:15:29 1995
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 01:09:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: bahai-discuss@bcca.org
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: G-Ethic List
Dear friends, Allah-u-Abha. One of the Baha'is who is on the G-Ethic
List wrote me a note today asking me to pass on the following message to
the friends on Talisman and Baha'i Discuss.
she asked that i reassure the friends that there are several Baha'is on
the G-Ethic list who are lovingly and patiently addressing the issues
brought forth by the other members of the list. Also, she asked that
none of us try to respond to those posts either directly to the person
notr indirectly through the G-ethic list unless we join the list and
spend some time in trying to understand teh context within which these
comments have been made.
It appears that the friends on the G-Ethic list are addressing the issues
through consultation with the auxiliary board and answering the questions
that people may have, so perhaps this is suffiecient at the time.
Warmest Regards
Cheshmak FArhoumand
From jrcole@umich.eduFri Nov 17 09:57:43 1995
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 01:14:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Zen & Baha'i
"From the exalted source, and out of the essence of His favor and
bounty He hath entrusted every created thing with a sign of His
knowledge, so that none of His creatures may be deprived of its share
in expressing, each according to its capacity and rank, this
knowledge." - Baha'u'llah
Literally, this says that from the exaltation of pure magnanimity and
the sublimity of unalderated generosity, He reposited a sign--of
mystical insight into Himself (ayih-'i `irfan-i khud)--in all visible things,
so that no thing should be deprived, each according to its plane, of
mystical insight into God.
`Irfan in Sufi and Shi`ite mysticism is mystical insight. Baha'u'llah here
says that every existent in the cosmos is endowed with the sign of
mystical insight into the Absolute Truth. I find this diction very
interesting and challenging. Insight is a type of knowledge; this
knowledge *is present* in all things. And it is present not as a thing or
essence or capacity but as a *sign*. A sign is that which points to
something else. The Greek is semeia. The study of signs as systems
of communication is called semiotics. Baha'u'llah is saying that the
cosmos and everything in it is theo-semiotic. It sign-ifies mystical
insight into the Absolute Truth.
It seems to me that, as Stephen Friberg rightly says, this idea is
analogous to Dogen's Zen notion that all things, not just sentient
beings, but all things are Buddha-mind.
"In Dogen's understanding, the Buddha-nature is not a potentiality,
like a seed, that exists within all sentient beings. Instead, all sentient
beings, or more exactly, all beings, living and nonliving, *are*
originally Buddha-nature. It is not a potentiality to be actualized
sometime in the future, but the original, fundamental nature of all
beings." - Masao Abe, *A Study of Dogen*, p. 42
But if whole-being is Buddha-mind, if each of us is a semiotic device
pointing toward the Absolute Truth, then is not everything perfect?
A dialogue between a Zen master (Roshi) and a student may help
clarify here:
Student: "Last night I said to myself, "Fortunately I don't have to
strive for enlightenment, because I am already enlightened."
Roshi: "While it is true that innately you are a Buddha, until you have
concretely perceived your Buddha-nature you are speaking in
borrowed phrases when you speak of enlightenment. The purpose of
your practice is to lead you to this experience." - Kapleau, Three
Pillars of Zen, p. 130.
Human beings must struggle against a sort of false consciousness,
generated by their self and passion, that prevents them from *seeing*
that they are Buddha-mind; or that, in Baha'i terms, they are theo-
semiotic.
(This last is a Rinzai Zen sentiment, linking striving to satori or
enlightenment; it contrasts with Dogen's Soto teaching that practice
and enlightenment are unrelated, that enlightenment strikes suddenly,
unexpectedly, and is not to be "striven for." Both attitudes have their
own truth, obviously.)
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
From CMathenge@aol.comFri Nov 17 09:58:25 1995
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 01:17:27 -0500
From: CMathenge@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: cmatheng@sonnet.ucla.edu
Subject: Spiritual Crises
Dear friends,
Jack McLean's book *Dimensions in Spirituality* says (Chapter 1, p. 1):
"The person who takes the spiritual vocation seriously will sooner or later
find moments of crisis, what mythologist Joseph Campbell calls 'moments of
original experience' when the familiar laws and teachings that we have lived
by no longer seem to apply."
I went through one of those periods myself. Actually the "moment" lasted, I
would say, at least a good three years, and the impact is still ongoing nine
years later. The experience left me with a fascination for knowing more
about how other people have experienced these things--some of you have
described such, and I wonder if others might be interested in some further
conversation about these experiences.
In my own case, I had a childhood which left me almost without a personality
of my own, because I had been so focused on trying to please my only parent
who couldn't be pleased no matter what I did. And then I had moved into a
marriage in which there wasn't much interaction and had been in it for 20
years at the time this thing began. I tried hard to be a good Baha'i, wife,
mother, employee, but I had a consistent nagging feeling that something
important was missing. I didn't have many friends--somehow I was simply
unable to engage with other people on any deep level, and my experience in
the Baha'i community, although I made consistent efforts, remained at a
fairly superficial level. The crisis experience itself involved a
complicated series of outer and inner events which I won't describe in detail
(did I just hear a meow of relief from the Talisman mascot aka Sherman, who
probably finds computers boring as they have no feathers?), but it triggered
a period of intense search and prayer; eventually I went to meetings of
Codependents Anonymous regularly for about 2-1/2 years, and then did some
intensive work with creative journaling, and eventually came out knowing a
great deal more about who I am and what is important to me. Now I find it
relatively easy to develop relationships, and I feel I have become more
creative, and am much better at teaching--(not great, but much better; that
means nobody has broken down my door trying to get hold of a declaration
card, but every once in a while I at least manage to get somebody to come to
a fireside.) Oh, and I've finally started a long-overdue year of patience.
Well, I didn't mean to go into all that, but somehow it got on the screen, so
I guess I'll leave it. One of the hazards of computers. :-) Anyway, I
wonder if anyone else would like to share something about their "spiritual
crisis" experiences?
With loving Baha'i greetings,
Carmen
From brburl@mailbag.comFri Nov 17 10:00:43 1995
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 00:41:48 -0600
From: Bruce Burrill
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Zen, Buddhism, and Baha'i
Juan,
> "I'm always happy to see your pugnacious postings, and think it is
wonderful that you take time to dialogue with us." <
Pugnacious? I don't think so, but wonderful? Of course.
> "But I have increasingly gotten the feeling that you are not interested
in a dialogue or in exploring together so as to find new insights, so
much as you are in telling us what's what." <
Well, if I am simply just telling what's what it may be in response to
being, for years, told by Baha'is what is supposedly what about
traditions of which they have no real knowledge. Of course I am willing
to explore, but I always felt it somewhat important to understand what
it is we are looking at before we start making conclusions.
> 'But it would be so much more useful to have a real dialogue in
which we are open to the specific spiritual insights of your
Buddhist tradition, and you are open to Baha'i spiritual insights (or have
you decided that the Baha'i Writings have none?)' <
Of course, but then I also think before we can do this we need to have
some clarity as to what "my" Buddhist tradition is saying, and I think I
gave a nice example concerning selflessness in my immediately
preceding missive, opening a huge door for dialogue and exchange. It
looks like the Buddhism and Baha'i are rather far a part, but are they?
Have I decided if the Baha'i writings have no spiritual insights? What
I am questioning is the claim of insight into the supposed unity of
religions. Such an insight seems to me less than obvious.
> "Such a dialogue takes work. For instance, it would be nice if you
had actually read some key Baha'i works aside from Momen's book.
You once gave evidence of not even having read Some Answered
Questions. Have you read Gleanings?" <
And this has been my criticism of Momen's book. He simply has given
no evidence of having done the work before committing him self to
publishing. I do not know of what you are speaking about concerning a
lack of evidence. I have read SAQ and Gleanings and a number of
others, albeit years ago. I do not have these texts at hand, but as such
I do not see that it invalidates my observations.
> "My current project is *not* to define what Buddhism is or is
not."<
But that is happens by what you choose to quote a text to support your
position. This is not a criticism, just an observation, for we all do that
in how we present the other side. As I have said here before -- I'll say
it again -- I stand to be corrected on anything I do say about anything.
And my point in my criticism of Momen and of the Baha'i subsumption
of Buddhism in general has been that it redefines Buddhism in ways that
are not necessarily in agreement with what Buddhism understands itself
to be.
> "It is to see how we might gain a different understanding of *Baha'i*
texts by looking at them in the context of Zen ideas. I should have
thought the idea of Baha'is trying to learn from Buddhism rather than
the other way around would meet some of the concerns you have
expressed in the past." <
But that was not at all clear to me that that was what you were doing.
I obviously missed your intent. Please accept my apologies. If I am
going to learn from Baha'i in Buddhist terms, it is important to me that
the Buddhist terms be carefully understood.
I am not trying to shut down dialogue or to beat up Baha'i, but I am not
going to easily accept the Baha'i notions of unity -- however it is
presented and approached --without good reason.
> 'But to be quite frank, this becomes way too complicated if the
discussion becomes a three-way one, between Theravada, Zen and
Baha'i. So could we please stick with the relevant texts; if you want to
quarrel with something I have said, fine, but it should be a quarrel from
a Zen point of view, not a Theravadin or some kind of generic
"Buddhist" one.' <
You are correct that a three way discussion would get too complicated,
but what is a Zen point of view, what the relevant texts, whose Zen,
which period of Zen? Zen cannot meaningfully be separated from its
Buddhist context, and that was the point I was trying to make in pointing
out that even though Sino-Japanese Buddhism may show an influence
from Taoism in the presentation of emptiness, that does not supersede
the broader Buddhist contexts of the Zen notion of emptiness. Zen
monks still chant the Heart Sutra, study and revere the Diamond sutra
and point to the Lankavatara as an foundational text.
Again, whose Zen? Should we look at Dogen, or how about the
wonderful Vietnamese Zen teacher Thich Nhat Hanh? Which Zen?
> "And, by the way, I think you are on *very* shaky ground in trying
to critique Dumoulin, who knows Sanskrit, Chinese and Japanese and
has devoted his life to the study of Zen." <
Unquestionably as historical studies his works are very good, but they
are rather less than good when he talks about Indian Buddhist doctrine,
not at all unlike T.V.R. Murti. This is a conclusion I came a number of
years ago, and it has since been confirmed over the years in talking with
a number of Buddhologists with Indo-Tibetan and Sino-Japanese
specialties. His latest work on the basic tenets of Buddhism is really
rather awful, especially compared to any number of other works
available.
Bruce
From brburl@mailbag.comFri Nov 17 10:01:59 1995
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 00:44:42 -0600
From: Bruce Burrill
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Positively Buddha-nature
Christopher Buck,
> "I got the message: Don't speak about any notion of *self* in
Buddhism, and do not speak of *positive* teachings, and dare not
compare Buddhism with other traditions!" <
I won't speak to comparisons with other traditions, and I'll pass on the
supposed positive teachings by Nagarjuna, but if you were using as
source the _Nirvana Sutra_, you should speak about "positive"
teachings, for it is a _tathagatagarbha_, or more commonly Buddha-
nature, text in which Buddhist notions are very deliberately recast into
positive terminology. Here is a little something just for your interest I
had from a discussion elsewhere from Paul Williams' excellent
MAHAYANA BUDDHISM.
-- Pre-eminent among those traditions for whom the tathagatagarbha
[buddha-nature] teachings were to be interpreted was (and is) the
dGelugs pa school, sometimes known in China and the West as the
Yellow Hats, founded by Tsong kha pa in the late fourteenth century.
This is, incidentally, the tradition to which His Holiness the Dalai Lama
belongs. According to Tsong kha pa (following the Lankavatara Sutra
and Candrakirti) the difference between the tathagatagarbha doctrine and
the Self or soul teachings of non-Buddhists lies in the Buddha's intention
in giving the tathagatagarbha teaching. If this doctrine were taken
literally it would indeed be no different from the non-Buddhist Self
theory. The Buddha, however, taught the tathagatagarbha teaching for
a purpose, he did not intend it to be taken as it stands as a literally true
doctrine. Rather, through his compassion, he intended it as a means to
introduce non-Buddhists to Buddhism. Moreover, when the Buddha
spoke of the tathagatagarbha what he was really referring to, the real
truth behind his teaching, was none other than emptiness, _sunyata_ (see
translation by Thurman 1984: 347-50). After all the tathagatagarbha is
said to be that within sentient beings which enables them to attain
Buddhahood. This is emptiness, absence of inherent existence,
which enables sentient beings to change into Buddhas. Understood
correctly, in this way, there is _then_ no problem in taking
Tathagatagarbha texts as teaching the final truth.
-- The tathagatagarbha is not just any emptiness, however. Rather it is
specifically emptiness of inherent existence when applied to a sentient
being's mind, his (her) mental continuum. ... When the mind is defiled
in the unenlightened state this emptiness is called tathagatagarbha. When
the mind has become pure through following the path and attaining
Buddhahood so emptiness is referred to in the dGe lugs tradition as the
Buddha's Essence Body (_svabhavikakaya_). The Buddha's pure mind
in that state is his Gnosis or Wisdom Body (_jnanakaya_), while the two
taken together, the Buddha's mind as a flow empty of inherent existence,
is what the tradition calls the _dharmakaya._ ... This also means that the
tathagatagarbha itself is strictly the fundamental cause of Buddhahood,
and is no way identical with the result, _dharmakaya_ or Essence Body
as the case may be, except in the sense that both defiled mind and
Buddha's mind are empty of inherent existence. --- Paul Williams
MAHAYANA BUDDHISM, pub by Routledge. Pg 106-7.
Tathagatagarbha stuff certainly takes work not fall into a reification of
the concepts it employs.
> "Bruce, I don't know you, but I respect your Buddhist training,
and would never presume to know more than you in this context. I
simply wish to point out that no dialogue is possible if the non-Buddhist
participants--who typically exert a far greater effort to understand
and accommodate Buddhist insights than the Buddhist participants do
(reciprocally, I mean)--are not given some kind of parity in the
dialogue and if their perspicuity is not also acknowledged." <
I think I understand what you are saying, but rather than to presume to,
please clarify.
> "BTW, have you read Eva Darguay's translation of the Tibetan
text that *proves* the existence of a Creator?" <
No, but what can you tell me about it?
Bruce\'1a
From mfoster@tyrell.netFri Nov 17 10:07:01 1995
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 06:18:12 -0600 (CST)
From: "Mark A. Foster"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Truth
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi, Don -
I enjoyed reading your posting. Thank you for it.
IMHO, "Truth" is God manifested (the Station of "the divine
Appearance and heavenly Splendor" - inseparably connected to the
Prophet's rational soul). Therefore, whatever the Prophet says or does,
informed as it is by the manifested Reality of the Divine Essence, is
also "truth."
The Revelation, as I see it, is love (the Covenant/Will/Law of God)
and truth (reality). Well, actually, there is no essential difference
between love and reality. They are, from a God's-eye viewpoint, in
at-one-ment as the fruit of the spirit. As the spiritual travelers that
we are, during our brief sojourn through the lower kingdoms of creation,
we relate to these qualities as names - placing them into the context of
what we experience with our senses and our minds as two of life's
greatest tests, matter and time.
The Baha'i Faith (the recognition/knowledge of, and obedience to,
the Will/Love/Covenant of God in this age) is the central *conscious*
emanation of the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. From my POV, it is correct,
then, to say that the eternal religion of God is *truth.* However, since
all knowledge comes from God, truth is also universal. So, the arts and
material sciences, mediated to us by the holy souls in the spiritual
Kingdom beyond, are also revealed truth. IMHO, *whatever* God manifests or
creates, in all the conditions of existence, is truth.
Blessings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Kansas Director, Foundation for the Science of Reality (Info. on Request) *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-)
From belove@sover.netFri Nov 17 10:07:12 1995
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 07:26:15 PST
From: belove@sover.net
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: FW: Re: UHJ, Patriarchy, etc.
On Wed, 15 Nov 95 10:06:52 CST Milissa wrote:
>Hi LuAnne--
>
>Alright! I also believe that the next Manifestation will be a woman!
>Yea! But then I also believe there have already been some female
>Manifestations.
>
>And I bet she will be considered uppity......:)
>
>Sincerely,
>Milissa Boyer
>mboyer@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu
Hi Milissa,
Is Ukans that sameas KU?
Please, Milissa, some of us guys might in fact recognize her and be
quite joyful and relieved.
On the otherhand, maybe You're suggesting this as an attribute, as
in, verily, thou are the uppity...?
Finally, if a guy thinks a she is being uppity, would that mean that
he considers uppityness a good quality, as in verily thou art the
Most Uppity.
;-)
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 11/17/95
Time: 07:26:16
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
From HICKC89@ollamh.ucd.ieFri Nov 17 10:07:46 1995
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 13:39:43 +0000 (GMT)
From: HICKC89
To: Talisman@indiana.edu, Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Subject: re: Re: infallibility
Hello,
I guess since I didn't get it that I only posted my reply to
Sen, for which I apologise, but I no longer have it.
Anyway, I don't feel Sen is being particularly clear here at all.
(Naturally I may be thick, or we have different speech norms or
something). At any rate let me assume he means that the word 'error'
is in some way ambiguous, which I admit, given the numerous things to
which it could apply, it is.
Fundamentally, I suppose that "freed from all error" implies that
the UHJ always makes *decisions*,announcements, etc. that are the best
possible for the Faith (and therefore [bit of an extrapolation] the
human race as a whole). Hence I suppose 'Abdu'l-Baha's other phrase
in W&T that the House of Justice is a "source of good".
If I have utterly missed your point Sen, I apologise.
D.
> for clarification (following Darach's posting), I am not
questioning that the
> Universal House of Justice is 'free from all error'. The question
is, what is
> meant by 'error'. Clearly it does not mean factual mistakes about things of
> this world, so we have to broaden our minds a little about the contents of
> this mysterious black box called 'infallibility'. That it exists is not in
> question. But what is in it?
>
> Sen
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
Darach Watson
Dept. of Exp. Physics
UCD, Dublin
Ireland.
From JBuckglenn@aol.comFri Nov 17 10:08:31 1995
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 08:46:40 -0500
From: JBuckglenn@aol.com
To: PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.edu
Cc: burlb@bmi.net, talisman@indiana.edu, mfoster@tyrell.net
Subject: Re: Covenant-breaker? (fwd)
Dear Burl:
You are quite mistaken: That was not word-for-word copy from anyone else's
"sincere ex-Baha'i E-mail". I have never in my life read a piece of
ex-Baha'i E-mail, or a piece of ex-Baba'i anything. I wrote it, fresh, and
out of my head, the other night, as a reply to a letter from a Baha'i. My
point in replying to the letter was to suggest that, contrary to the
letter-writer's expectations, Baha'ism is NOT the Faith of the Future because
you cannot overcome the problems that serious scrutiny of the roots of the
faith bring to light, that the author was refusing to allow Buddhism its own
self-understanding, to which I was objecting strenuously.
When I was a Baha'i I DID read the texts seriously and study the history
seriously and to immerse myself in the faith, but I began to be troubled with
questions--like what happpened to Shoghi Effendi's will?--that I could not
suppress. I wanted to beleive, but I could not honestly do so any longer, and
left.
In my letter, I did not get into Baha'ullah's claims or the proofs of his
mission--or lack thereof--because that was not the point of the letter. The
claims are irrelevant to my point, which is basicially your presentation to
non-beleivers.
I did not condemn either Buddha or Mohammad to hellfire as false prophets in
my letter! I said nothing of the kind, and don't think that, either. I have
no idea why you added that.
Sincerely,
Judy
PS: I was a Baha'i in a small New England state in the late 1970's. My last
name then was different. I was not aligned with any of the various
"Covenant-breaker groups." I don't feel like identifying the circumstances
more clearly than that because some of you are beginning to sound a little
crankish to me, quite frankly.
From brburl@mailbag.comFri Nov 17 10:37:53 1995
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 00:41:48 -0600
From: Bruce Burrill
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Zen, Buddhism, and Baha'i
Juan,
> "I'm always happy to see your pugnacious postings, and think it is
wonderful that you take time to dialogue with us." <
Pugnacious? I don't think so, but wonderful? Of course.
> "But I have increasingly gotten the feeling that you are not interested
in a dialogue or in exploring together so as to find new insights, so
much as you are in telling us what's what." <
Well, if I am simply just telling what's what it may be in response to
being, for years, told by Baha'is what is supposedly what about
traditions of which they have no real knowledge. Of course I am willing
to explore, but I always felt it somewhat important to understand what
it is we are looking at before we start making conclusions.
> 'But it would be so much more useful to have a real dialogue in
which we are open to the specific spiritual insights of your
Buddhist tradition, and you are open to Baha'i spiritual insights (or have
you decided that the Baha'i Writings have none?)' <
Of course, but then I also think before we can do this we need to have
some clarity as to what "my" Buddhist tradition is saying, and I think I
gave a nice example concerning selflessness in my immediately
preceding missive, opening a huge door for dialogue and exchange. It
looks like the Buddhism and Baha'i are rather far a part, but are they?
Have I decided if the Baha'i writings have no spiritual insights? What
I am questioning is the claim of insight into the supposed unity of
religions. Such an insight seems to me less than obvious.
> "Such a dialogue takes work. For instance, it would be nice if you
had actually read some key Baha'i works aside from Momen's book.
You once gave evidence of not even having read Some Answered
Questions. Have you read Gleanings?" <
And this has been my criticism of Momen's book. He simply has given
no evidence of having done the work before committing him self to
publishing. I do not know of what you are speaking about concerning a
lack of evidence. I have read SAQ and Gleanings and a number of
others, albeit years ago. I do not have these texts at hand, but as such
I do not see that it invalidates my observations.
> "My current project is *not* to define what Buddhism is or is
not."<
But that is happens by what you choose to quote a text to support your
position. This is not a criticism, just an observation, for we all do that
in how we present the other side. As I have said here before -- I'll say
it again -- I stand to be corrected on anything I do say about anything.
And my point in my criticism of Momen and of the Baha'i subsumption
of Buddhism in general has been that it redefines Buddhism in ways that
are not necessarily in agreement with what Buddhism understands itself
to be.
> "It is to see how we might gain a different understanding of *Baha'i*
texts by looking at them in the context of Zen ideas. I should have
thought the idea of Baha'is trying to learn from Buddhism rather than
the other way around would meet some of the concerns you have
expressed in the past." <
But that was not at all clear to me that that was what you were doing.
I obviously missed your intent. Please accept my apologies. If I am
going to learn from Baha'i in Buddhist terms, it is important to me that
the Buddhist terms be carefully understood.
I am not trying to shut down dialogue or to beat up Baha'i, but I am not
going to easily accept the Baha'i notions of unity -- however it is
presented and approached --without good reason.
> 'But to be quite frank, this becomes way too complicated if the
discussion becomes a three-way one, between Theravada, Zen and
Baha'i. So could we please stick with the relevant texts; if you want to
quarrel with something I have said, fine, but it should be a quarrel from
a Zen point of view, not a Theravadin or some kind of generic
"Buddhist" one.' <
You are correct that a three way discussion would get too complicated,
but what is a Zen point of view, what the relevant texts, whose Zen,
which period of Zen? Zen cannot