Logs of Talisman Discussions of Bahai Faith 11/95
From dpeden@imul.comSun Nov 5 13:14:40 1995
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 95 08:38:20+030
From: Don Peden
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Linda:
Thank you for your response. Yes, you are right about my own confusion
regarding where I wanted to place myself in regards to the faith. Funnily
enough, I realized after my response to you exactly where I stood (and have
been probably standing all along, but just couldn't see where I was for all
the smoke from the musket fire) on this issue. The result was a request
sent to the National Spiritual Assembly of Canada to begin whatever steps
are needed to re-instate my enrollment. That Email went out with yours.
What this means, I am not sure. At this point, I think a committment firmly
planted on the ground on the Baha'i "side of the fence", and a committment
to prayer and more questioning/searching. Trying to remain separate from
the Cause of God is like trying to hold one's breath forever. But making
decisions about how I will involve myself in the implementation of the
cause, I will decide about after a looooonnnnng period of prayer. That one,
I will have to think about carefully.
Thanks for the push.
On the subject of sugar coating, well, I had never thought of myself as
sugar coating anything. And, "get on with your life, honey" was not quite
what I was trying to say. (I'm more of a "Piss or get off the pot" person,
and that is NOT what you are deserving to hear from me.) I am getting the
impression that all of this trauma is a few years old. How long do you
grieve? What is the needed mourning period? This is different from "get on
with it honey" because you can't get on with it until your healing is done.
This is what I am trying to say. But at some point healing has to start,
and you are in charge of that timetable. Maybe it already has. I can't say
"It's all right", it obviously isn't. Hurt and anger need transformation at
some point into wisdom and action, and only the individuals involved can
make a decision about what action, when to act, where to act, how to act,
and why is it necessary to act. You are the authors.
I would rather see my tone of being, "Right! What next?" All of the
players in this drama obviously have so many choices ahead to make, paths
to follow, and wonderful knowledge to offer. I rejoice that there are minds
and hearts like yours to serve the Cause. There has never been in my mind
any question of loyalty to the Cause of God, any questions of covenant
breaking, or any question of distancing myself from any of you lest I become
"tainted". (If I become "tainted" it would be a reflection of my own state
of being, wouldn't it?) I have seen no references made to setting up a
separate Baha'i Faith, and if my understanding is correct, that is what
covenant breaking is. And even if covenant breaker were an issue at all, it
is the sole responsibility of the Universal House to name it so...not any of
us. Questioning the parameters of the Administrative structure and looking
at POSSIBLE next steps (there has been no writing in blood coming through my
romper room mirror) in no way constitutes covenant breaking. We are seeing
ghosties in the hallway if we think it does, or perhaps commenting on our
own unspoken questions and fears. I call it the "I believe in fairies
syndrome".
One thing I have learned through my own experiences of recent, that I would
like to share. My faith became shaken because of the action of some
Baha'is. This has never bothered me before, so why now? I think the
answers lie in the fact that it involved TWO of my children and my mother
defense system was on full go. When a well meaning Auxillary Board member
tried to counsel us with the ususal "Be patient, things are in process,
etc.," I was quite rude to her, and told her to save her breath, because we
had heard the lines for twenty years and they were wearing a little thin.
Like the buzzards in the tree, I was through with patience and wanted to
kill something. The other thing is that it was being done in the name of the
National Spiritual Assembly which I could not accept...and the backlog and
burden of the National Spiritual Assembly was so great they were not able to
respond and put a bandage on my faith right away. They also needed time
to explore my concerns, along with similar concerns from others, consult and
make a decision. When they acted on the situation, they really acted, and
no half way about it. There was no attempt to make nice nice with the
folks. Very decisive action occured, lovingly, firmly, and in a manner
which moved the whole thing forward one giant step for eveyone concerned
then, now and in the future. My faith had always rested in the idea NOT
that our institutions were perfect, but that they would be given what they
need to progress when they needed it and that the new world which
Baha'u'llah promised would move forward. This includes tests like me to
allow us both to rub our edges off against each other in the great tumbler
of life. That was shaken at the thought that they would be involved in
promoting the kind of rigidity I was seeing. It challenged my faith in that
process of progress. It turned out that it was not the case, and my fears
have been allayed. But my "healing" couldn't begin until they were able to
respond. Which is why I ask, what do you NEED to have happen to allow you
to take whatever steps are next?
I look in my new "Romper room mirror" here, (now SHE was sugary, and I
always hated Romper room and refused to watch it; but I did like her window
on the world) and I see a lot of dedicated, loving, passionate souls whose
ardour allows them to feel INTENSE pain and anger. I see it as a measure of
your own qualities, and I don't believe for a minute that God is "throwing"
any of you away. If anything, he will push you to the limit because of your
capacity. Where there is one quality, there is also the opposite...it is
part of our human paradox. One of the spiritual goals laid out in the
prayers (excuse my paraphrasing) as I understand it is to take our qualities
and to transform them into attributes. Anger is a quality...it helps right
injustice. Pain is a quality...it helps us be compassionate...you know all
this. How we do this is dependant on us. Maybe part of that search is
being able to express your anger and outrage at the injustice you feel has
been carried out. Maybe part of that search is sifting through the ashes to
look for the phoenix.
By the way, my electronic dictionary came up with two very beautiful
meanings for phoenix:
1. A bird in Egyptian mythology who lived in the desert, consumed itself in
fire, and later rose from the ashes.
2. A thing of great beauty.
Kinda like making art!
When you look in your mirror in the morning, can you see the phoenix?
Love,
Bev.
From nima@unm.eduSun Nov 5 13:14:54 1995
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 23:25:04 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Rabin shot dead at Tel Aviv peace rally
Dear Talizens--
If you haven't heard already, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was
assassinated a few hours ago after giving a speech at a peace rally in Tel
Aviv. Attempts at reviving him failed at a nearby hospital. An Israeli
law student belonging to an ultra-right wing militant Jewish group
opposed to the Mid East peace plan was responsible for the act. I'll try to
get a hold of the Reuter/AP press releases ASAP and forward them to
Talisman.
What does this mean for the peace process now?
Nima
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
From friberg@will.brl.ntt.jpSun Nov 5 13:15:04 1995
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 95 21:50:28 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Terry's Post on Science and Religion
Dear Terry:
A really wonderful posting on science and religion! Great stuff.
My only complaint (OK, its not a complaint) is that you didn't
put down Internet as being one of the positive fruits of science!
Your friend from the Japanese telephone company!
Stephen F.
From friberg@will.brl.ntt.jpSun Nov 5 13:15:47 1995
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 95 0:29:49 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Context vs. the Writings
Dear Friends:
I would like to comment about using the Writings out of context. It has been
suggested that books like Helen Hornby's _Lights of Guidance_ do a disservice
by encouraging Baha'is to use it as a kind of book of laws. The argument is
that these quotations are taken out of context, and therefore can be
misleading.
Collections of quotations from the Writings need no defense. _Gleanings_,
translated by Shoghi Effendi is such a collection. It is perhaps the
preeminent among such collections. Surely, this is sufficient to establish
that collections of quotations are more than just acceptable.
As for the believers using the Writings out of context. It is hard to
believe that there should be some sort of authority who tells the believers
what is the right way or wrong way to use the Writings. Many of us have been
arguing on Talisman for the freedom of the believers to think as they wish,
and to be free from arbitrary coercive authority. Telling the believers how
to use the Writings is inconsistent with the belief that they should be free
to study and use the Writings as they see best.
In a similar vein, it would be difficult to reconcile the idea that the
believers should be free with the idea that somehow they must understand the
proper "context" for the Writings. Who is to provide the "proper" context?
Historical scholars? Should people be punished if they don't use the "proper"
context?
More bothersome is the implication that only those with the proper scholarly
qualifications can "correctly" interpret the Writings. Only such people, it
is implied, can correctly understand the "context" of the Writings. But, of
course, to claim that this is true would be tantamount to putting the
scholarly and learned in a position where they can exercise arbitrary power
and authority.
Much better is to let people by themselves wrestle with Holy Word, and by
their own efforts bring out the many meanings. Unlike our own discussions,
which rarely transcend context, the Words of Baha'u'llah, Ab'dul-Baha, and
even Shoghi Effendi have depth and brilliance beyond the particular
circumstances in which they were uttered.
So let the scholars study the contexts, and make them available to all. This
is certainly praiseworthy. But allow the believers to use these studies as
they best see fit. No coercion, please!
Yours respectfully,
Stephen R. Friberg
P.S. Note, not even the best of scholars can fully (or even approximately)
describe the particular circumstances under which the Words were revealed.
So it is indeed impossible to know exactly what the context was.
From LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.eduSun Nov 5 13:16:42 1995
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 95 11:44:05 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: virtue
Dear Jim, I think that most would agree with you that we in America and in the
West in general have a tremendous challenge. We are grossly materialistic. We
have let the basic virtues and foundations of our society die a painful death.
Sometimes the pain of the high school and college students I see daily is
beyond endurance. I detest the selfishness I see in this society. I am beyond
being dismayed by the indifference parents show their children. They become
detached from them. Sometimes they seem to fear them. Those of us who have
some grounding and a sense of life beyond the material do have the greatest
obligation to be of service and to nurture wherever we can. No one could
possibly question Shoghi Effendi's warnings to us.
Yet, that does not discount the complaints that have been expressed towards
institutions. My eye was drawn to the phrase "defenders of orthodoxy." That
is what some of us have been complaining about. We are not blaming the
insitutions for all the ills of society but instead feel that if the Faith is
going to be a meaningful refuge and guiding light in this society that all
arenas of intellectual and spiritual life should be able to flourish. It is,
of course, necessary that each of us be responsible for our own spiritual
development and commitment to serving humankind. But religion is communal. It
has to be an expression of the voices of the people who have alligned
themselves with it.
I needn't tell you that many were attracted to the Baha'i Faith because of the
sense of liberation from old ways and prejudices that we felt in the religions
of our childhoods. We didn't want to be shackled by powers from on high. We
felt that ours was a revolutionary religion that could change the world. Yet,
over the years we have been more and more restricted in our endeavors. MOre
and doors seem to be closed. This isn't just the complaint of the scholars and
intellectuals. I hear this from others who are creative and inventive sorts.
You might grow tired of the moaning and groaning. Others might feel that this
is the first step to bringing about sorely needed change. If voices could be
heard, if there were more avenues for expression, no doubt there would be less
complaining. Linda
From dhouse@cinsight.comSun Nov 5 13:33:24 1995
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 1995 09:51:44 -0800
From: "David W. House"
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Virgin Mary
Friends,
>[Someone incompletely specified] has confused two good solid doctrines of
the Catholic Chuch...
Well, actually, what [someone] said was:
Of course, among Baha'is, with reference to the position itself, the
statement of the beloved Guardian in Promised Day is Come (p 109) settles
the matter conclusively.
[Someone] offered no interpretation of the passage, but what it says is:
As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without
any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is
unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of
Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration
of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the
mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and
the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and
defended....
PDC, p 109
>The Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with Jesus...
Whether or not this is what the single word "Immaculacy" in the quoted
passage refers to, this is not what [someone] said about this passage, but
rather a position offered in the post being quoted.
>...the Virgin Birth--which is scientifically impossible..
This *does* pertain to the post, in which I (yes, I confess) made the
assertion that science certainly has not, and indeed cannot demonstrate that
the Virgin Birth did not take place. (Please note the last ten words in the
previous sentence carefully; the word "impossible" does not appear.)
In other words, it is not a "scientific" statement to say the Virgin Birth
is impossible (except in the loosest colloquial sense). It is rather a
statement of opinion, based on extrapolation, which in turn is based on
current scientific information, which in turn is changing daily.
I have no dispute with those who have the referenced opinion, pro or con.
Its up to any of us to choose whatever position we want. My point, my only
point, and nothing but the point is found is an exact and literal reading of
the previous paragraph. I intend, in other words, no argument about
conclusions; rather I am trying to more accurately categorize the means by
which such conclusions are reached. If someone wants to have an opinion, no
problem, great, I support that, have at it.
d.
David William House (dhouse@cinsight.com)
From dhouse@cinsight.comSun Nov 5 13:33:34 1995
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 1995 09:51:46 -0800
From: "David W. House"
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Science Religion and Virgins
Terry,
>David H. wrote that science provides relative truths...
True.
>and presumably religion provides absolute truths.
Hmmm. Don't remember saying that. Interesting post, and I agree with many
things you say. But different subject than I raised...
d.
David William House (dhouse@cinsight.com)
From KOLINSSM@hcl.chass.ncsu.eduSun Nov 5 13:33:48 1995
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 13:25:47 EST
From: Steven Kolins
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Response to pain (poem)
When someone is hurting,
after an incident,
regardless of context,
we respond with following:
Apathy: it's not my problem.
Blame: wonder what s/he did
to deserve it?
Empathy: Yes! I see, aha! Hmm?
Sympathy: Gosh! I feel your pain!
Compassion: I see, I feel, I want to help
Action: Would you please
let me do something?
*********
All are relevant
and valid
posing six questions
for evaluation;
who? what? when? where? how? why?
was the effects and affected,
can only be seen
with a view of bird's eye.
Don't you wish,
now you could fly?
Even then there is
no guarantee,
to know the truth,
until we see
the video of life
played before us,
after the last breath.
I hope and pray in His Mercy,
some portions of tape,
will be deleted.
Likewise for all
my foes and friends.
lovingly,
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
All I need is Freedom of spirit, Chastity of soul, and Purity of
heart. A pov is not even secondary.
From rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.comSun Nov 5 16:26:07 1995
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 95 11:13:01 -0500
From: Ahang Rabbani
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: an open letter to a friend
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Juan,
It pains me to write this note, but increasingly I am having more
and more problems with both the content and the tone of your
messages in relation to the Institutions of the Faith and your
charges against them. I do not mean this as a flame and I think
you know how deeply I love you and admire you -- and how I have
defended your right to speak. But now I'm having problem with
the actual speech and since I know you appreciate a straight
forward manner, then I like to say what's bothering me.
During the past 10 days on Talisman, several people (Rob, David
House, Tim, ...) have disagreed with you over your perceived
wrongs, or as you say injustices, perpetuated by the Institutions
of the Cause, including the House of Justice. Every single time
you responded, I am sorry to say this my friend, but you actually
have upped the ante. Yesterday, in a response to Tim, you
categorically denied the infallibility of the House of Justice,
dismissed Abdu'l-Baha's Will and Testament, implied He had a
false vision of how things would unfolded and throw out a large
body of the Guardian's letters by saying his pronouncements were
"hasty and informal"!
If this is where we are after a few days of this discussion, then
I must ask, at this rate, what are you going to say in a couple
of weeks time? Since in late 70's, in your World Order article,
you stripped Baha'u'llah of His infallibility, (an article while
was allowed by the House to be published, but certainly *not*
endorsed by the World Centre), I think, in all honestly all is
left to do is to deny the existence of God and be done with it!
(This is not intended as a sarcastic statement, but one is really
puzzled as to what a person believes in, after all these
statements!)
Like many others, I have repeatedly expressed my support for open
discourse allowing all the right to say what they want. But
there is a limit. I do not support inflammatory statements, and
will all due respect and love, am beginning to think certain
statements on yours fall in this category.
You must be aware of the influence of your words and how the rest
of us look up to you for your learned remarks. How we deeply
admire your tremendous scholarship and knowledge. And how so
many of us genuinely love and respect you. Further you've seen
how many Talismanians echo your words on other Internet Baha'i
discussion groups! Even a couple of days ago there was a
not-so-subtle hint by a fellow Talismanian of your possible
election to the NSA! All of these illustrates the influence of
your words and the prominence you've achieved. I know, I for
one, am elated by it and can't think of a better person to
receive this attention.
But along with influence and prominence comes responsibility.
One can't say things that will be disunifying in their effects or
worse, undermine the faith of others. Don't you think by so
casually dismissing a sacred document of our Faith as the Will
and Testament, "inseparable" from the Kitab-i Aqdas and "on par"
with It according to Shoghi Effendi, will have a tremendous
negative effect on the rest of us who look up to you because of
our love, admiration and your learning? Don't you think that now
some of us will think its OK to go back to our community, and
assured that someone as knowledgeable as Juan Cole has said so,
tell the friends that these statements of the Guardian are all
bunch of "hasty and informal" things! Do you really think this
is the best thing for the community, or are you assuming no
responsibility for your words?
Let's remember, what killed Prime Minister Robin a few hours ago
was not the assassins bullet, it was months of inflammatory
discourse that provided the means for some crazy man to act.
Negative discourse and criticism have very powerful effect.
I beg that as a standard-bearer of scholarship for you to observe
more moderation in your discourse.
But, I also beg of all the other scholars on Talisman, that while
you exercise your God-given right of free speech, please consider
their effect and Baha'u'llah's admonishment for moderation.
Again, my dear Juan, I profoundly apologize for saying any of
these, but felt as some one who you knew deeply loves you, I
could say this, and I hope you will find it in your heart to
forgive me and to allow our friendship to flourish.
With greatest admiration, ahang.
From LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.eduSun Nov 5 16:26:52 1995
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 95 15:00:06 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: emergency!!!
Quick, oh ye American T.V. audience. My husband - the great Listowner whom I
am always saying kind things about - blew it big time. He was recording the
BBC production of Edith Wharton's novel "The Buccaneers" which she never
finished. He somehow programmed the VCR to cut it off a half hour early!
Please, if there is anyone out there who watched the end of the Buccaneers,
please save this marriage by posting me a.s.a.p. to tell me in great detail
what happened. I was at the part where Guy was addressing Parliament.
And no wise cracks about me learning how to program the VCR. I do enough
around here. It is all John's fault. Desperately, Linda
P.A. And for the wise guys who are going to say that, since she didn't finish
the novel, there was no ending and that John is not to blame - pooh! She
outlined the ending and the producers filled in the blanks.
From DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.eduSun Nov 5 16:27:10 1995
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 15:34:46 EST
From: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Covenant
Juan Cole wrote:
>...you can look at me as a
>miner's canary. And I'm telling you, I'm on the verge of fainting.
Be it known only
unto God!
Perhaps thou art,
a cardinal,
from Rachel Carson's
Silent Spring!
Please do not faint!!
Fly for awhile,
away from this field,
to get a fresh air,
then come back again!
lovingly,
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
From 73613.2712@compuserve.comSun Nov 5 16:27:39 1995
Date: 05 Nov 95 16:10:38 EST
From: Steven Scholl <73613.2712@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman
Subject: Re: White Cloud Catalog
Dear Friends,
Thanks to all who send nice words re: Common Era's success. Steve Friberg asked
if I would post our titles, naturally I am delighted to. Below is our latest
catalog which makes a wonderful Pagan Holiday gift guide to good literature. We
have been agonizing on the best way to market our books for the holiday season
and came up with such time honored phrases as "Seasons Readings" "Presents of
Mind" and the like. In the end, however, we decided to chose a a holiday slogan
that truly gets to the heart of the gift giving season, and one which I hope my
fellow Talismaniacs will take to heart and guide your actions in the days ahead.
So without further adieu, I give you the 1995 White Cloud Holiday Gift Guide
Slogan: "Friends Don't Give Friends Fruitcake"
Be good, buy books.
With love,
Steve
WHITE CLOUD PRESS TITLES
White Cloud Press publishes a unique selection of books on religion, mythology,
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NOTE TO TALISMAN SUBSCRIBERS:
TALISMAN SUBSCRIBERS RECEIVE A 15% DISCOUNT ON ORDERS. TO ORDER BY E-MAIL, SEND
YOUR NAME, ADDRESS, CITY, STATE, ZIP PLUS VISA OR MASTERCARD NUMBER AND EXP.
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THE VISION: REFLECTIONS ON THE WAY OF THE SOUL
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by Toshihiko Izutsu
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From jrcole@umich.eduSun Nov 5 16:43:09 1995
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 16:40:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: reply to open letter
Ahang is a very beloved friend and I value his counsel. If he wants
things toned down, by all means let's tone them down.
As I said, I want to do nothing to detract from the bill of rights idea,
which I hope we'll have more response to, and a revised form of which I
will post, taking into account Chris's and Ahang's comments. And the
reason the ante got raised is that some insisted that *no change is
possible* on ideological grounds. If we can agree that change is
possible, then it is not necessary to go off on other tangents, examining
the bases of that ideology.
Someday, however, we will have to have the postponed conversation.
I am distressed only by the suggestion now made for a third time of my
holding in the future some sort of Baha'i office. Since campaigning is a
crime in the Baha'i administrative structure, this is not funny, even as
a joke. And it is besides a silly idea. Don't you think by now I'd have
high negatives? And I have stressed that my personal life would not
permit me such a step. So, please, guys, cut it out.
There is an Arabic proverb, sharr al-`ulama' man zar al-umara', the worst
of the learned are those who visit the powerful. There is a place in the
faith for thinking persons who eschew personal power, after all.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
From briann@cruzio.comMon Nov 6 00:05:37 1995
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 95 13:52:27 PST
From: Brian and Ann Miller
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Rabin, Israel
Dear Friends,
I found the reference on Jewish fundamentalism I mentioned in my last
post. [By the way, did that post on Rabin's assassination reach you? I made
an error in the address, but I think I was able to correct it.]
The reference is FOR THE LAND AND THE LORD: Jewish Fundamentalism in
Israel by Ian S. Lustick, Council on foreigh Relations, New York, 1998.
Yes, its eight years old, but still valuable, I think.
Warm regards,
Brian [briann@cruzio.com]
.
--
From briann@cruzio.comMon Nov 6 00:06:11 1995
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 95 14:21:13 PST
From: Brian and Ann Miller
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: nima@unm.edu
Subject: rabin the martyr
Dear Friends,
I just read the morning paper. I am stunned, grieved. The peace
process in the Middle East has gained another martyr. Perhaps Rabin's dream
will actually be advanced by this great tragedy. Peres is now in power. I
hope he waits until the regular, scheduled election in October 1996 to try to
form a new government. We can only hold our breath while Israel chooses its
course. The AP wire article in this morning's paper speculated that Israel
will try to purge the right-wing group(s?) responsible, which took credit for
this heinous act under the name "Ine."
I will attempt to restrain my fury at the fascist religious radicalism
represented by the Gush Emmunim and the tolerance for their outrageous
positions by government leaders such as Shamir, Sharon, and Netanyahou. There
is an excellent book, I hope I can remember the title, that might be very good
reading this week. I can't find it on my shelf. It was an excellent study of
the rise of Gush Emunim and the political and historical context that supports
their role in Israeli society. They are religious radicals similar in
approach and the structure of their belief system to the Wahhabis and the
Islamic revolutionaries in Iran. My hope is that such positions and such
groups will be thoroughly discredit and even banned in response to this crime
against humanity.
In short Nima, and friends, I am always an optimist andnow tentatively
hopesful that some good may come from this, because I do believe that Rabin is
a martyr, that he willingly gave his life for the cause of peace.
Friends, especially Nima, can you forward to Talisman Middle East wire
reports this week as events take shape during a most critical juncture in the
course of world shaping events.
Warm regards, and deepest sympathy to our Jewish and Israeli friends,
Brian [briann@cruzio.com]
--
From margreet@margreet.seanet.comMon Nov 6 00:07:18 1995
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 14:31:19 -0800
From: "Marguerite K. Gipson"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Hold on...
Hello...
Wow, what a week. But I do not want to tangle with anyone...
Gees.. you are probably bigger than me anyway, but I have to put a stop or a
hold to some of the *questions/issues* being raised here.
I can see that if someone is not grounded in the Covenent of Baha'u'llah,
and steadfast in the Writings, some hair is standing on the back of my
neck... about what has been said. Peter Khan talks about a statement from
the Guardian and I quote it
"This is the stronghold of the Faith of every Baha'i, and that which enables
him to withstand every test and the attacks of the enemies outside the Faith
and the far more dangerous, insidious, lukewarm people inside the Faith who
have no real attachment to the Covenant, and consequently uphold the
intellectual aspect of the teachings while at the same time undermining the
spiritual foundation upon which the whole Cause of God rests."
Now do you understand why I said I would not have had the courage to make
these remarks. It is simply the words of the Guardian telling us that only
through deepening in the Covenant will we withstand not only the attacks of
people outside the Faith but what he describes as the "far more dangerous"
attacks, the insidious attacks of those he describes as "lukewarm people
inside the Faith who have no real attachment" to the Cause, uphold the
intellectual aspect of the teachings while undermining its spiritual
foundation."
ME again... you have some smart, intelligent people on Talis who have a
deeper understanding of the Bahai Writings, but I also sense a *danger* for
those not too well deepened and steadfast to understand. And someone is
bound to be hurt by it....
I have to again, just watch and listen, I don't understand why someone said
the things they do, I begin to wonder if it is the same Bahai Faith. But I
am steadfast enough to the Covenent Of Baha'u'llah to stand the test of
time. But you know, part of the maturity process in being Bahai, is
instant obediance to the institutions... Even if you feel they are
immature, and not functioning effectively.... they can be trained,
deepened, and nurtured.
Back in '86 I was out of work, so I went to the LSA... after some
discussion went by, without me being present, they made a suggestion...
When I read the letter, I thought how could they make such a decision. They
all had good jobs, and never were faced with this type of dilemma before.
It took a week for me to decide if I was going to obey them, or go do my own
thing... They wanted me to spend my money that I really did not have.
Charge it... I mean, how could they ask me to do that... Well, a week
later I did, and I found a job 4 days after I completed the task they asked.
So I feel, instantly obey, and see what happens.... you never know, and if
it is the wrong decision, the truth will become known....
One more question... How is your life going??? Are you being tested and
in a constant struggle??? What would happen if you had a change in
paradigm?? You can get more bees with Honey, than you can with vinegar....
(my housemate is a bee keeper)
Warmly,
Margreet....
From derekmc@ix.netcom.comMon Nov 6 00:13:35 1995
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 14:44:02 -0800
From: DEREK COCKSHUT
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Reforms etc !
In the debate on Reforms and a Baha'i Bill of Human Rights it does seem new and old
ground is being covered . As Juan started the thread I will primarily directed my
attention to what he has put forward and work in other items . As I previously posted
I do believe a Baha'i Court is a needed part of the Community and is an aspect of the
Writings we do not have at present . I will deal with that point first .
I do not see the immediate urgency in the Western Baha'i World to form a National
Baha'i Court now , there are not hundreds of situations in which individuals and the
USA NSA are involved contrary to what some of the posts have implied . The USA
Baha'i community is the largest in the OECD countries and therefore is a good
yardstick to measure such needs by . You could make a case that the Baha'i
Community of India might benefit from such a Court . I am not sure how forming
such a Court would fit with the Indian Legal System , or any other countries legal
system or even if the Baha'is in India feel the need for such a body . One major
consideration that nobody has bothered to mention , a Baha'i Court would have no
secular legally enforceable powers at the present time . The Court no matter how or
where it is formed could only operate by the goodwill of those upon whom it passed
down decisions on. I do feel that first a Court should be developed at an international
level . The reason for that is quite simple if you set up a Court first in the USA the
method of operating would be framed in part by the methods used in this country .
The same would apply whichever country you set up the Court if it was a national one
. The danger would then be a possibility of a tainted development , by bringing in the
national cultural norms into the format of the Baha'i Court that have no place there ,
as the intent is to create a different standard and type of Justice . The real need for a
Court will come with the first Baha'i country or the first where the Faith becomes the
State Religion . I am not proposing we should not have a Court before then , only
that the application of Justice and the understanding of that process can not function
properly until such a Court is dealing with meaningful matters on a regular basis .
Which is why I believe having the Baha'i Court as an International Arm of the House
of the Justice is the right first step.There would be sufficient need to enable the Court
to evolve into a working Court of Justice not Law , Justice being the hallmark not the
law. Initially the Court could handle internal matters to gain experience . For example
such matters of appeals that currently go to the House of Justice could be forwarded to
such a Body.. < You could still appeal to the House of Justice if necessary afterwards
> As it would be appointed by the House of Justice it automatically would be an
independent forum from any perceived national pressures . I do see a small danger of
lack of impartiality if such bodies are appointed by NSAs in the beginning of such an
institution . Not so much from the NSAs but the individuals appointed believing they
must follow some ' correct' path of conformity rather than developing correct judicial
practices based on the Writings . An International Court could set standards of
procedure and conduct which then would become the future models for national courts
to organize themselves . The type of persons appointed we might reflect on the idea
that comes from Baha'u'llah the eyes of Humanity are the man of consummate
learning and the seer of divine insight . A balanced court of : learned in the Writings ,
learned in Law and wise in Life might be a good combination . At least three , but we
no doubt could have more on such a bench . A knowledge of Arabic would be of value
as would an understanding of the various legal systems that operate on our Planet . I
do not hold with the opinion that Baha'i courts must naturally be a developed
extension of Islamic Jurisprudence . The primary reason for the Madhhabs or Schools
of moral and legal interpretation was the fact the Religion of Islam did not accept <
Shi'is withstanding> the Interpretation of the Imams and therefore had to devise a
method of applying Quran and Hadiths to every day life , which developed into the
Shari'a we know today . The four remaining and dominant schools ; the Shafi'i , the
Maliki , the Hanafi , the Hanabli , all belong to Sunni Islam . Although a full study of Islam is a necessary
requirement to gain a proper understanding of the Revelation of Baha'u'llah , we
should not bound by the methodology of Islamic courts in the formation of Baha'i
ones . Indeed one might with some justification consider that is not the way to do it ,
bearing in mind the rationale behind their creation . In a similar vein I do not regard
the ecclesiastical courts of Christianity to have relevance except the historical
experience is good knowledge to have available .
It does seem more logical and correct that the Baha'i Court system could develop
either as a branch of the Institution of the Hands of the Cause or as entirely separate
entity but under the direction of the House of Justice. Whilst elections do not worry
me , I believe the criteria for service on such a body should be such , as to make an
electoral process a difficult route . Especially in view of the immaturity of the
Community in respect of the true purpose of Baha'i elections . I will deal with this
point later.
First and foremost there has to be a realization especially in the USA we are not going
to have what has been known here as a legal system in the Baha'i world . We do not
have the burden of a man-made Constitution to be bothered by. I love living in the
USA it is a great country in many respects .Yet the naive belief that the Constitution
and the Bill of Rights can ensure a happy content secular life is largely without merit .
For the time period
in which the document was created it is magnificent and helped create this society .
However the growth of Government and the state legal enmeshing of the individual
has taken away much of the original freedoms which were restricted to an elite band of
the society at first . In my considered opinion both the Constitution and the Bill of
rights are been denigrated downwards towrds paper rhetoric , as the reality of the
society stands in dark contrast to the stated aims . The inbred and cultivated racism ,
the sexism , the flagrant disregard for human personal rights and dignity being the
most obvious signs . Anyone who has had to deal even on the most fringe aspects with
law enforcement , tax collection , immigration and customs is made aware you have
no rights regardless of what is written . That it is a society without Justice , is very
clear at such moments . I do realize that the situation in a dictatorship of whatever
political persuasion can and should be worse , but they do not offer the dream of
freedom , one which the USA does and is progressively failing to deliver .In certain
respects I find some of my fellow believers in the USA have more faith in the
American system than the average American does . Frequently there are attempts to
collate the American way to the Baha'i way and not too infrequently the query is
posed but the Baha'i way must be flawed it does not match the American way or 'my'
version of the American way should be . Well the Baha'i system was never intend to
be American or Persian or African or Icelandic or Russian or Indian or Chinese or
Australian , not even English . The Baha'i method of
Court operation from my reading will not employ the present legal adversarial system
. The highest aim of such a Court will be based on the foundation that the person will
see with their own eyes Justice . Such an elevated aspiration is far removed from the
enactment of the Law today . It follows that the search in the resolving of any case
must be an unfettered pursuit of the truth . That requires a different approach to
resolve disputes and the like , certain aspects of ourselves need to be transformed. .
The first is Trust and the lack of it is very clear in the varied postings I have read .
This strange and continuing harping for a public trial or hearing of matters between an
individual and an NSA at the present time can only be based on total mistrust . Even
assuming there was a degree of validity that the Institutions are filled in whole or part
with human beings who are neither honorable or trustworthy . I fail to see why in
creating a new mode of behavior we have to presume that human beings are not going
to advance spiritually . It seems to be a contradiction to believe on the one hand that
Baha'u'llah has brought a whole Canon of Religious Truth that according to the stated
purpose is to nurture a new race of human beings which we are the ancestors of , yet
they will or can not behave better than we do or have done. That frankly is a
nonsensical position for a believer in the Blessed Beauty to take regardless of whatever
problems one may have at present . The crux of the problem appears to me to revolve
around the concept of submission to the Will of God . That is an alien idea to people
living and educated in North America and Europe . However without that submission
to the Will of God nothing lasting can be accomplished in the Faith . Baha'u'llah in
fact states informed submission to the Will of God , that requires a greater degree of
belief than blind faith .
I truly feel that courts conducted in private offer a greater chance for the development
of the new type of Justice based on the Writings. This would not preclude a person
having as required advisors or representatives but with privacy comes the preserving
of honor and dignity. I know there are possible pitfalls in holding hearings in private ,
but the opportunity for the truth to come out in private I believe is greater and with
truth will come Justice.
Nobody in the Baha'i Community can comprehend the manner in which Baha'i Society
will evolve into the World Order of Baha'u'llah . I think though it is a matter of
perception , when the discussion revolved around the non- membership of women on
the Universal House of Justice . The attempt was made very eloquently to show the
development of the thought of the Master towards a change in this regard . In other
words that the Word of God can be reshaped by differing circumstances . One of the
hypothesis being given sufficient time and exposure to Western thought that Abdu'l-
Baha would have changed His mind . The Word of God by Baha'i belief is uncreated
and capable of causing creative and positive change in individual and collective human
behavior , thus the society will be shaped by the Word of God . You need to allow It
to work and let the Spirit reshape individuals and society . That has never happened in
human history as far as we are aware , it is a challenge to let go . But the only way the
Faith is going to succeed is by all of us letting go and allowing the miracle of social
change based upon the Word of God to happen . It is in this manner we should look to
the development of a Bahai Court system and other Institutions in the Faith .
Reforms and a Baha'i Bill of Rights : I have look at the various items and the
following seems a clear question : What is the precise purpose of the Administrative
Order at the present time . It only has one true fundamental reason for its existence
and that is to be the channel to the Teach the Cause of God , and in so doing bring in
the World Order of Baha'u'llah . I would suggest the often quoted remark at a local
level " Well we are the real local authority if everybody only knew it " is disrespectful
to the future Local House of Justice . For National Spiritual Assemblies to imagine
they somehow compare to future Secondary Houses of Justice is again disrespectful .
What is more disrespectful to the process we are going through is to conclude that the
present stage is the limit of our social and spiritual development . That the only way
forward is to mimic proven flawed systems of whatever national or cultural
background . Frequently demand for change especially in the United States is couch in
terms that are confrontational , that is disrespectful whether it is from individual to
Institution or Institution to individual. Change done in haste gives the cosmetic
appearance of progress , we are good at that in the USA . If you change things often
enough then you never have to progress just keep changing everything and be regarded
as a leader and genius of your generation . True change requires tenacity of purpose
that means long term commitment , because the change we are about is going to be
slow by the human time scale of things . Simply because we have not respond quickly
enough or do not have enough faith or are not firm enough in the covenant , well in
part maybe but I have a sneaky feeling that God's time works on a different level to
ours .
To address specific points raised : An NSA member is not guaranteed by the
peculiarities of the electoral system life incumbency . A matured community in
its voting could ensure a normal and healthy turnover of membership the
question that is not considered is what is normal and healthy. However I have
never read any passage that requires as a prerequisite for a proper functioning
Institution that there must be a regular change in the membership of that
Institution by the voting procedure . Just as there is no passage that says you
must not have any change of membership by the voting procedure . It is a myth
that there has to be change and a very harmful one to constantly bring up as a
possible defect in the system because the change did not happen that you wanted.
I personally believe change can be beneficial in terms of bring on board new
ideas and perspectives but not just for changes sake . The Baha'i system of
voting is an exercise in a person's spiritual connection with God . Every time
you vote , you are supposed to prayerfully consider your options and vote in
harmony with your Lord. To doubt that commitment in those who gather to
bring into being a new Institution such as a NSA , I find difficult to justify . To
want a higher awareness of the way one should exercise the responsibility to vote
is another matter and that is where maturity comes in . the case of a National
convention it is still a relatively primitive institution in comparison to other
Baha'i bodies , I am not saying we have mature development on the other
Institutions but the nature of the convention means it will be slower in
maturation compared to others < I am not including the Universal House of
Justice in this comparison >. To place blame upon a person for being
continually elected , because a collection of duly charged individuals in a
prayerful atmosphere made personal choices to vote for that person is an act of
intolerance by the blamer .
Regarding the financial points that were made about NSA members :
Conferences are held sometimes at the request of the Community , on the
instruction of the House of Justice ,at the request of the Counselors and as part of
the NSA's plans for the community . If attendance of an NSA member is needed
at such a gathering , then the only NSA members who could attend would be the
most affluent if funds were not available for travel . NSA membership would
become restricted to the independently wealthy because service on that body
would require a major financial outlay in terms of discharging the requirements
of such an office in a country the size of the USA . At the national convention
this year all information relating to expenses was available to the delegates and
by Federal law the financial accounts of a registered non-profit have to be filed
in the State of Primary Operation . To imply that the NSA is avoiding such a
filing and thereby breaking the law is erroneous . Knowing Juan I am certain
there was no malice aforethought in his : there is no public accounting , assertion
relating to the NSA just lack of information . Any person employed by the NSA
after three years is eligible for the Pension fund the NSA operates for its
employees . If an NSA member is employed the same terms apply , you can
regard that as a retainer if you wish. I am not sure of what material incentives
there are for continuos NSA membership . Robert Henderson gave up a very
prestigious position in the Air Transportation Industry to become NSA Secretary
. Bill Davies had a top position in the California State Court System . Juana
Conrad was in the legal profession and Jim Nelson was a Municipal Court Judge
. I believe they had the material incentives not to be full-time NSA members.
The American Baha'i has never changed from the day of its conception it is the
official organ of the NSA of the Baha'is of the United States and is not a
University Debate forum . As far as there is no mathematical impossibility of the
delegates at a convention turning out 'sitting' members . I disagree , in the UK
,which is more conservative in respect of change than the USA , there has being
two new members voted on in the last three years replacing two of the eligible
members from the previous NSA . There is no reason why that could not happen
in the USA .
I found it amazing that we are finding fault with the make-up of the Universal
House of Justice . I hate to bring up a word like xenophobia and that is too
strong but national arrogance I have to say would not be. Baha'is belong to a
World Community , American Baha'is do not have a divine right to control the
Baha'i World or demand permanent membership of at least one native-born son
on the Universal House of Justice . The very idea with overtones of Spiritual
Colonialism and North American intellectual elitism is repugnant . I have spent
part of the last two summers in David Ruhe's company I suspect he will be
amused at being described as the 'last American Liberal ' to be on the House . I
do not know what regular scathing censuring of ' Liberals ' that is refereed too .
I know several members of the House of Justice like-minded is the last thing I
would have used . Anyway isn't Hopper Dunbar native-born American or does
he not qualify because he never graduated from an American University ?
The sole problem of teaching in the USA is with ourselves not with the system or
the Institutions just us you and I . We have to make the move there is no plan to
stop the individual from teaching , in fact the very reverse . The only flaw in the
system is that we have failed to a lesser or greater extent in terms of submitting
to the Will of God . Instead of creating Communities based upon the Writings we
have made and found excuses not to follow the directions given us. When I asked
on Talisman how many Communities had Dawn Prayers , I had exactly four
replies and not one was having them everyday . Yet that is a requirement in the
Kitab-i-Aqdas and the House of Justice instructed us to do that.Do not speak of
flaws when the very things that will cause you to develop the community that is
promised in the Writings have not been started .
I agree totally with Rob if we want the Faith to expand then just go and tell
people about Baha'u'llah and act normal . You will be amazed how you will be
sought out if you decided to teach . Teaching does not require master plans and
strategies it is opening up your heart to another and allowing the Spirit of God to
flow from your soul to theirs . The Faith of the Twin Blessed Ones belongs to
the people of the World it is their spiritual birthright we are just welcoming them
home. It time to get on with the task and roll out the welcome carpet .
We come to the situation regarding a Baha'i Bill of Rights the only way that
such a Bill can be formulated surely is from the Writings , playing around with
the NSA by-laws I fail to see as valid Baha'i Bill of rights. Bits of paper do not
mean anything , what counts is people , if a person is honorable and trustworthy
and you have nine elected who demonstrate those qualities in their lives . Then
you have an Institution which will be honorable and trustworthy , regardless of
bits of paper . The same applies in reverse if the people are not honorable and
trustworthy so will go the Institution .
I have already stated that an International Court would be preferable in my view
as a starting point , but if it is decided to start a national one first or a local one
that is fine by me. But service until they are seventy and they must commit some
crime before they are removed . No room to allow that the Faith has grown
beyond a person capacity to perform their original function and they need to be
moved into another role these seem disjointed ideas .
Freedom of speech and conscience : I would have thought the letter of the House
on that very subject Dec 29th 1988 made it very clear the Baha'i position .
Baha'u'llah warns in several places of the danger of speech and excess liberty
and that letter explains the situation perfectly. Just because the Master found the
USA in 1912 , better than Qajar Iran or the Ottoman Empire does not mean the
Future World has to put up with the type of free expression we have today in the
States .
On Censorship Tony mentioned that as a Publisher he was against any form of
censorship . I would point out that every publisher who is not publishing their
own work is a defacto censor . Kalimat ask a person to write a book on the
history of the Faith covering the time period 1840 to 1890 . The would-be
author two years later presents a manuscript . Tony reads it and discovers among
other things even though he had stated that the families of the Bab and
Baha'u'llah must be included , the author had omitted the facts relating to the
second wife of the Bab and the second and third wives of Baha'u'llah .Tony asks
the writer to include these salient details , the request is refused and Tony rejects
the work as being unacceptable . That is a form of review and censorship , the
work was unacceptable to Tony as a Publisher and he had every right to refuse
and he did .
By the way David House , who seemed to get flack from some quarters because
he did not agree with Juan , you all might like to know with his wife are the
backbone of the Woodburn Project in Oregon . He and his wife have served
thousands of meals to itinerant field workers in that area and are a living example
of putting the Words of the Blessed Beauty into action and being of service to
Humanity . There is much to learn from David and I hope he is asked to share
with us his insights.
On the matter of the Baha'i Encyclopaedia , I was very grateful for the posting
that John did . As the matter is still under review it is difficult to gain a grasp of
what will transpire in the end . As I have had a small connection with it , I do
have a personal interest . It could be the matter hinges around what is
Scholarship in a more profound way than we have all considored .For example if
the House of Justice wants this work to be the starting point of Baha'i
Scholarship and the work has been developed on the parameters of todays
Academic standards then a serious rethink will have to happen . Maybe
nobody
listened if they said the standard must be a Baha'i one . I am not
implying that
John or Moojan did not operate from the highest motives . It could be
we need
to resolve how do we start Baha'i Scholarship .
I do intend on posting in respect of the Covenant and how the Spirit
of the
Covenant through the Will and Testament of the Master should be the
transforming element in our lives.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzMon Nov 6 00:15:33 1995
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 12:14:58 +1300 (NZDT)
From: Robert Johnston
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Science Religion and Virgins
Terry and ffolks,
I do not always follow my dear wish to write with precision, and so that I
am fairly easily understood, but I do try. I was a journalist for a time,
and that helped, I must say. Talisman is a discusive context. We write:
we read. We speak: we listen. We write/speak in the expectation that we
will be read/listened to. Otherwise, why bother?
Which brings me to Terry's letter, which I struggled with. I assume that
Terry is sincere, and in view of this assumption, I am now replying to him,
in this "open" context. I'd like to take his letter, piece by piece (but
not entirely), and make a few comments.
Terry:
> David H. wrote that science provides relative truths and presumably that
>religion provides absolute truths. I understand that the Guardian said "
>..religious truth is relative . .'
Thinly veiled irony here Terry, it would seem. I suggest that it would be
intellectually more solid to explore the implications of relativity in
either case. As it is you take a rather too short route back to:
" Seems we are back to square one ."
I believe that science is for exploring and
>disclosing the secrets of the physical universe and improving the physical
>life of human beings.
'Abdu'l-Baha says that science is a perpetual bestowal,and makes it clear
that it may also be used to explore the non-physical universe.
I believe that religion exists to explore and the
>disclose the secrets of the spiritual universe and improve the ethical life
>of human beings .
Again, 'Abdu'l-Baha says that faith and knowledge are the two wings of one
bird. Religion without science is superstition.
> Some of my dearest friends on Talisman do not believe all of these same
>things in the same way that i do . Let alone all the people on the planet.
> I believe Baha u llah does not reqiure us to view it all the same . As he
>says " All look upon Me through their own colors ."
Not so: while the Faith espouses unity in diversity, fundamental
epistemological and ontological verities exist which do not permit a
variety "truth" statements, except as degrees of obvious error. These
verities are those established in the Writings. In "The Valley Of Unity"
Baha'u'llah clearly expresses the limitations of colourful seeing.
Unity in diversity may be compared to a family, comprised of uniquely
talented individuals, at one table, in perfect peace. Beyond this, there
are only degrees of war. The Covenant ensures perfect peace.
I learn from them daily and do not in the least think I am
>a superior being or possessed of some special insight into the nature of
>Reality or God or ethics that they do not possess . I have no need to
>invoke the Covenant, call anyone names, impugn their motives or assume they
>are muddle headed .
Here Terry you appear to assume [al la the positivist fallacy] that your
prejudices are not clearly visible. When will be all learn, once and for
all, that there is no such thing as value-free discourse?
Robert.
From StrayMutt@aol.comMon Nov 6 00:22:59 1995
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 18:43:34 -0500
From: StrayMutt@aol.com
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Baha'i Courts
Hello, again...
First of all, my congratulations to Juan Cole who, despite suffering a
substantial ration of sniping, innuendo and back-biting about his sincerity
and loyalty as a Baha'i, has the courage and fortitude to persist and offer
clearheaded analysis and cogent, meaty suggestions that I notice seem wholly
absent from the e-mail postings of his detractors.
I have yet to see anything approaching the quality of Juan's work from those
who regularly vilify him, implying he is disloyal and verges dangerously
close to covenant-breaking. He is one of the few people on this service who
shows much talent for innovation or creative thinking.
The latest evidence comes in his posting on a Baha'i Bill of Rights, which I
should like to comment on. I have been off line for a few days, and so I
apologize if I what I say here duplicates something someone said sooner or
better than I.
I think I should begin by saying that I am not wholly comfortable with the
concept of a National Baha'i Court. Juan suggests in his draft Article XIV,
Sec. 2 that "No person shall be deprived of his or her administrative rights
without due process of law."
Well, that certainly makes sense. Except, as has been noted previously, no
such concept exists within the Baha'i Faith. Defendants have few rights and
can be summoned before Baha'i administrative bodies on the flimsiest of
evidence and punished without recourse to anything approaching a recognized
standard of judicial conduct.
While it is not prevalent, it is entirely possible for local assemblies to
act in a manner far more reminiscent of the secret Stalinist purge trials of
the 1930's or the notorious volksgericht criminal justice system of Hitler's
Nazi Germany. While Baha'i assemblies don't have the power to dispatch
defendants off to Siberian labor camps or execution in Gestapo prison cells,
they can pretty much ride roughshod over defendants, who have no recourse to
legal counsel and are at the mercy of a justice system that operates largely
at whim.
What I find missing from Juan's otherwise admirable first draft is a more
sweeping statement of individual rights. Specifically, I would like to see
the Baha'i Faith formally endorse the United Nations Universal Declaration of
Human Rights and agree to abide by its principles. As far as I am aware, the
International Baha'i Community has never done so, despite all our verbal
support for the concept of human rights.
I would feel a lot better about any judicial system that incorporated the
principles fundamental to the UN Human Rights Declaration within its
constitutional structure. That, to me, is more important and more
foundational than the workings of a judicial system. A Baha'i Court system
is judicial machinery and, as such, needs a set of guiding principles, or it
cannot function.
Having said that, let me jump ahead to touch on some points Juan made. I am
sorry if some of this stuff sounds dry and technical. But, after all, we are
talking about judicial mechanics here, so the discussion is inevitably a bit
bloodless.
I believe we need to separate our topics by amending article. For example,
to follow Juan's model, Article XIII might empower the creation of a Baha'i
court system by a national spiritual assembly, in consultation with and
following the approval of the Universal House of Justice. I would suggest
using such an article to spell out the purpose of such courts. Separate
articles should specify the duties of such courts and the qualification of
judges to sit as members of the panels.
I don't much like the idea of an age limitation. I presume Juan chose 70
because, in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, that is the upper age of exemption from
fasting. Well, that exemption strikes me as one that is well based in a
concern for the health of an elderly Baha'i. But, what we want in our
judges, it seems to me, is wisdom, tempered with mercy. I don't see where
the age of the judge is relevant to that issue.
I'm not so sure that judicial appointments should have lifetime tenure.
Everybody else in the faith has to be elected to office or appointed for a
limited term. Why should Baha'i judges be any different? What if a
particular judge turns out to be a dud? He or she may never break a Baha'i
law or do anything illegal or immoral that would disqualify him or her from
service on the court. But what if the person simply lacks what is commonly
called "judicial temperament"? We need to have a way of getting rid of
people who are not up to the job. A specific term of office can help in that
regard.
Likewise, I'm rather uncomfortable with the idea of including language such
as "charges of campaigning or negatively campaigning for office." There
seems to me to be no recognizable crime here. Yeah, I know that some NSA
members freaked out and invented that accusation (and damn well should have
known better, too) in response to the Dialogue Magazine fiasco that happened
several years ago.
[As it happens, I know about this particular incident, as I was an assistant
editor at the ill-fated Dialogue Magazine when this all went down, leaving a
bitter aftertaste in the mouths of many of us who suffered as a result of
this bizarre episode. What transpired was not a credit to the notion of
Baha'i jurisprudence.]
But, just because someone goes a bit paranoid and dreams up a nonsense
thought crime doesn't mean we should codify it. I think crimes have to be
recognizable offenses. (For example, is there really such a crime as
"blasphemy"? Who is its victim? What about "heresy"? Is that a crime?
Baha'is who are persecuted in Iran are, essentially, convicted of such
"crimes." It's nonsense.)
I've another concern here, and that has to do with the formation of the
judicial machiney of a Baha'i court system. If we have a panel of judges to
rule of the evidence of some Baha'i transgression, then who presents the
evidence? Does a local spiritual assembly hire or create what amounts to a
Baha'i prosecutor to plead its case? Does the assembly hire or create an
investigating arm to research and examine the evidence? Clearly, the judges
on the court cannot gather the evidence nor present the prosecution. That's
an obvious conflict of interest and no one would consider a court with such
powers to be a just tribunal.
In other words, do we have to create a Baha'i judicial system, complete with
courtrooms, attorneys, court reporters, evidentiary hearings, motions and all
the legal stuff that is the feature of virtually every court system on the
planet?
Then, there's this consideration. How much power would such courts have? Do
they have legal standing? (Outside the Baha'i community, the answer is
"no.") Can they impose fines, as Juan proposed in Art. XIV, Sec. 4? What's
an "excessive fine" anyhow?
Also, I'm confused by Sec. 5. Juan, are you saying that NSAs "shall be
considered impartial tribunals," along with Baha'i courts? If so, aren't you
setting up an inherent conflict of roles here? Where does the responsibility
of the NSA leave off and that of the Baha'i court begin?
It seems to me that if we are to advocate creation of Baha'i courts, then
such courts need to take over all judicial functions and both LSAs and the
NSA are out of that business, period. An NSA cannot say, "We'll handle this
one" and assume jurisdiction from the court, any more than a state governor
can tell an attorney general's office that is, not the A.G., is going to
prosecute the crime. Either the NSA is involved in the process (as it is
now) or it is out of the loop, as it must be for your proposal to work. We
cannot survive with potentially competing court systems. Chaos would result.
Finally, I don't like the idea that the "decisions of the court are final and
may not be appealed." Where does that leave the Universal House of Justice?
The name itself would imply a level of involvement. I think a ruling by a
National Baha'i Court would have to be appealable (is that a word?) to Haifa.
Okay, look, I've prattled on way too long, and I do apologize to anyone who
has read this far. And, Juan, as many misgivings as I have about your
proposal, I applaud its spirit. As I said before, I don't know of anyone
else who would have the guts or the intellectual wherewithal to offer this
up.
Like you, I think our justice system desperately needs reform. Local
assemblies are simply too often incapable of making the kinds of judgments
that are called for in such cases. And when those judgments involve
assembly members or the friends of assembly members, the potential for abuse,
for conflict of interest, for special pleadings is simply too much of a risk
to remain with the system we now have in place. People can talk all they
want about how, if an assembly is truly following the spirit of the Cause,
then we won't have any problems. But the reality, as both you and I know, is
quite different.
Bob Ballenger
From DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.eduMon Nov 6 00:24:36 1995
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 19:16:14 EST
From: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
To: Brian and Ann Miller , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: rabin the martyr
Dear Friend,
I am in agreement and sympathy of your grief over this event.
I do have a question regarding your heart-felt response where
you are mentioning names of groups and politicians.
Considering the transitory nature of individuals and groups,
is it adviseable for us to be involved in this way?
I remember according to some international relations perspective,
it was best for neutral entities to remain neutral in crisis such
as this. Does anyone have any idea about this, from a Baha'i
perspective? Is it sufficient to be using prayers for Kings and
Rulers from the Gleanings and other books, for God's assistance
and guidance in their service to the people?
lovingly,
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
========================================================
"When diverse shades of thought, temperament and character
are brought together under the power and influence of one
agency, then will the glory of human perfections be made manifest"
-Advent of Divine Justice, p.55 1988 pocket Ed.
===========================================================
From dpeden@imul.comMon Nov 6 00:33:28 1995
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 95 05:41:30+030
From: Don Peden
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: science and religion
Dear Robert:
"Not so: while the Faith espouses unity in diversity, fundamental
epistemological and ontological verities exist which do not permit a
variety "truth" statements, except as degrees of obvious error. These
verities are those established in the Writings. In "The Valley Of Unity"
Baha'u'llah clearly expresses the limitations of colourful seeing."
Thanks for your posting. Could you be more specific about this passage and
how you read it? I'm sure glad to have my electronic dictionary in my
CD-Rom. Thanks for the vocabulary lesson.
Love,
Bev.
From snoopy@skipper.physics.sunysb.eduMon Nov 6 00:34:22 1995
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 22:15:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Stephen Johnson
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: KI pp. 7-9,comments
Dear Stephen and fellow Talizens,
I just checked the last Qur'anic reference, S29:2. check it out,
Baha'u'llah may be refering us to more than the quoted passage.
First, the notion of testing belief is critical, perhaps to us on
Talisman right now. We profess belief and then we are put to proof
through
tests which afford us the opportunity to link words to deeds, as well as
the
opportunity to grow. Ostensibly, the text of the Iqan suggests that the
greatest test is when we are called upon to recognize the Manifestation
for
this age. Now look at the succeeding verses of the Qur'an:
>> Do men think that They will be left alone on saying, "We
believe,"
and that they will not be tested?
>>We did test those before them, and God will certainly know
those who
are true from those who are false.
>>Do those who practise evil think that they will get the better
of
us? Evil is their judgement!
>>For those whose hopes are in the meeting with God, For the
Term(appointed) by God is surely coming: And He hears and knows.<<
This is the translation of Yusuf Ali. I deleted some of his insertions
because he inserts interpretations into the text of his translation.
This
passage seems to me to presage the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah and
the
severe test it will pose to the Muslims. What do you think?
I must confess, being able to read the Arabic text of the Qur'an is
helpful, as it allows us to clearly recognize the translator's
insertions and
biases. the Qur'an is very emphatic about the "Coming of the Lord" as I
read
the passage. _'ajala allah_ is here translated as the term (appointed
by) of
God. For a Christian, he would perhaps read it as the Day of the Lord.
In
checking Lane's lexicon of Arabic, _'ajal_ is correctly translated by
Y.A.,
but another translation may also be supported, "God has promised [I need
a
stronger verb here] that He is indeed coming and He is the All-Hearing,
the
All-Knowing...."
I don't have a persian copy of the Iqan, and my persian isn't as
good
as my Arabic, so I will for now rely on the Guardian's superlative
translation.
Warm regards,
Brian [briann@cruzio.com]
.
--
From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzMon Nov 6 00:35:44 1995
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 17:19:19 +1300 (NZDT)
From: Robert Johnston
To: Don Peden , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: science and religion
[The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set]
[Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set]
[Some characters may be displayed incorrectly]
Bev Peden wrote:
Could you be more specific about this passage [from, Valley of Unity, Seven
Valleys] and
>how you read it?
Dear Bev,
Thank you for your response. In this letter, I try to comply with your
request, but fail. Instead, I write something else, but do not ignore your
query entirely!
So much has been made in recent Talismanic times of the need for plurality
of discourse. Some, myself included, have noted that the case for
plurality sometimes appears to be being made in Covenantally-contrary
directions, particularly in relation to the Institutions. Now, I am fully
aware that it seems to some that in wishing to introduce restraint into
discourse I (we) assume the role of censorious oppressor. Well, so be it.
I don't see it that way, but my relationship with the institutions is
pretty lightly carried anyway.
Oh, before I go any further, I should like to mention that I have been
enjoying your letters to Talisman. The one you wrote recently, in response
to a letter from John, about the uses of art works, I though a real gem.
I was reminded of Maslow's view that self actualised persons invariably
have what he terms "creativeness" , which is not Motzartian-type genius
creativity, but a certain uniquely creative approach to life. I thought
your approach to your work extremely sane, and a lesson to those afflicted
with perfectionism - a trait which strikes me as being rather too
masculine, if I think about it. I recall reading about an Australian
potter who went to a village in Papua New Guinea where the people
specialised in pot making. She was amazed to see women working together,
and at great speed, decorating pots, with an artistry which (I suppose) is
priceless.
And speaking of dark-skinned peoples, last night I saw a BBCTV documentary
on Rwanda. Oh the horror of it. Similar to the Nazi-Jew situation, yet --
really -- ignored by the world. It made our squabbles over encyclopaedias
and so on seem rather trivial, I must say. Also on radio and TV over the
weekend I heard and saw stuff about Jimi Hendrix. Wow! Wasn't he great.
I decided that the immediate future of the Western World is all stated in
his Woodstock version of "Star Spangled Banner." The black man said it
all. (Of course in "Citadel of Faith" the Guardian clearly indicates that
the conditions of blacks in the US is the surest indicator of the destiny
of that nation. If I lived there, this is the variable that would object
of my vigilant attention.)
But I had been stop procrastinating and get on with my "Seven Valleys"
analysis! So... Reading the Passages, I realise that I am powerless to do
more than provide extensive quotations, with very few comments... But, I
shall say something after the quotations...!
In the "Valley of Unity", the wayfarer
"pierceth the veils of plurality, fleeth from the worlds of the flesh, and
ascendeth into the heaven of singleness.....
".... It is clear to thine Eminence that all the variations which the
wayfarer in the stages of his journey beholdeth in the realms of being,
proceed from his own vision. We shall give an example of this, that its
meaning may become fully clear: Consider the visible sun; although it
shineth with one radiance upon all things, and at the behest of the King of
Manifestation bestoweth light on all creation, yet in each place it
becometh manifest and sheddeth its bounty according to the potentialities
of that place. For instance, in a mirror it reflecteth its own disk and
shape, and this is due to the sensitivity of the mirror; in a crystal it
maketh fire to appear, and in other things it showeth only the effect of
its shining, but not its full disk. And yet, through that effect, by the
command of the Creator, it traineth each thing according to the quality of
that thing, as thou observest. In like manner, colors become visible in
every object according to the nature of that object. For instance, in a
yellow globe, the rays shine yellow; in a white the rays are white; and in
a red, the red rays are manifest. Then these variations are from the
object, not from the shining light. And if a place be shut away from the
light, as by walls or a roof, it will be entirely bereft of the splendor of
the light, nor will the sun shine thereon. "
So, Bev..this leads us to ...
"Thus it is that certain invalid souls have confined the lands of knowledge
within the wall of self and passion, and clouded them with ignorance and
blindness, and have been veiled from the light of the mystic sun and the
mysteries of the Eternal Beloved; they have strayed afar from the jewelled
wisdom of the lucid Faith of the Lord of Messengers, have been shut out of
the sanctuary of the All-Beauteous One, and banished from the Ka'bih[] of
splendor. Such is the worth of the people of this age! ...
"... Cleanse thou the rheum from out thine head And breathe the
breath of God instead.[] In sum, the differences in objects have now been
made plain. Thus when the wayfarer gazeth only upon the place of
appearance--that is, when he seeth only the many-colored globes --he
beholdeth yellow and red and white; hence it is that conflict hath
prevailed among the creatures, and a darksome dust from limited souls hath
hid the world. And some do gaze upon the effulgence of the light; and some
have drunk of the wine of oneness and these see nothing but the sun itself.
Thus, for that they move on these three differing planes, the
understanding and the words of the wayfarers have differed; and hence the
sign of conflict doth continually appear on earth. For some there are who
dwell upon the plane of oneness and speak of that world, and some inhabit
the realms of limitation, and some the grades of self, while others are
completely veiled. Thus do the ignorant people of the day, who have no
portion of the radiance of Divine Beauty, make certain claims, and in every
age and cycle inflict on the people of the sea of oneness what they
themselves deserve. "Should God punish men for their perverse doings, He
would not leave on earth a moving thing! But to an appointed term doth He
respite them...."[Qur'án 16:63.] O My Brother! A pure heart is as a
mirror; cleanse it with the burnish of love and severance from all save
God, that the true sun may shine within it and the eternal morning dawn. ""
My final point: I have found it helpful to see human beings as being
fundamentally similar, above all else. I like to say that people are more
similar than they are different. The advantage of this viewpoint is that
which is "other than similar", is the evidence of the uniqueness of the
bearer of that difference -- ie. that person her/himself, or whatever.
Their colour if you like.
Too long,
love,
Robert.
From snoopy@skipper.physics.sunysb.eduMon Nov 6 00:35:53 1995
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 23:42:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Stephen Johnson
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Forward: Re: KI pp. 7-9,comments
a note:
Wanted everyone to notice that the last message's author (the one on our
slow-read) was:
> Brian [briann@cruzio.com]
not me...though I wish it was.
From Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nlMon Nov 6 10:15:20 1995
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 1995 11:16:30 +0100 (MET)
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Reforms
Steve Scholl's suggestions on 1 Nov. struck me as eminently
desirable and practicable. I'm disappointed to see little
discussion of these in the fuss over a couple of Talismanian's
very regrettable outbursts. To refresh your memories, Steve
suggested:
1- independent publications & the end of review (tho' these
two are not logically dependent: one could also have
independent publications under an independent review process,
which seems to be the intermediate stage which is
developing). I agree with the priority here: independent fora
and the end of review are the most important requirement for
revisioning the community, which is why I am much more
optimistic since the advent of Talisman.
2- two-stage process for electing NSA: this looks workable,
more so than returning to the requirement of absolute majority
voting, which has the same effect without giving the delegates
the time to reflect on the pool of 'electables' thrown up by the
first round. I'm wary of 'vision statements' from the electables,
which could easily degenerate into campaigning, not
particularly by the electables but by proponents of one or
other person in local communities: I would hate to see the
Feast dominated by discussions between the John X and Mary
Y camps. I would suggest that the time between rounds should
be as short as possible, and the electables be asked NOT to
make any public statements in the intervening period. I
suggest that both rounds of voting take place at the end of the
national convention, say on days 3 and 4. If the extra element
of a presentation of the views of electables is found desirable,
that could be added later in the form Steve suggested: I would
favour making changes step-by-step where possible, with time
to judge the effects.
3- reform of national convention. Yes: my experience is that
in larger communities the convention has to be heavily pre-
structured if the days are not to be lost in vapid self-
congratulation, and it is necessary that the delegates have
some mechanism for participating in this pre-structuring.
Thanks to Steve for a really constructive posting.
Juan: I naturally hope to see the pluralist vision win, too. One
quibble: there is certainly a correlation between education in
the liberal arts and scepticism concerning the more
superstitious and literalist aspects of religious culture, but
correlation is not causation. I suspect that there is a certain
pre-selection of (successful) liberal arts students, so that the
liberal education is not to be credited as the major cause of
the relative enlightenment of these graduates. This could be
tested by taking a sample of potential students who are not
contemplating such an education, and forcing it on them.
What difference would 4 years of Dante and Milton, History
and Philosophy make? An attractive research proposition,
since the subjects would to some extent benefit from it :-).
Ahang: I don't see that it is necessary for every NSA in the
world to have more than 9 members if the USA makes that
change. Luxembourg and Lichtenstein will probably never
need more than 9: the USA and India and eventually China
will obviously need more. No problem. The same goes for the
other reforms being suggested: where assembly size obviously
SHOULD vary from community to community, other changes
COULD be made selectively (as some countries have a
regional level of administration and others do not, at present).
Why should we look for a universally applicable formula???
I'll bite: what on earth does C.G.S.P mean, Derek??
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn
From Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nlMon Nov 6 10:16:04 1995
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 1995 11:15:00 +0100 (MET)
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Encyclopaedia
Linda and John:
thanks for the insight into the Encyclopaedia saga. In this,
and in the Modest Proposal and Dialogue affairs, and my
own experience with thwarted publishing efforts, the House
and at least 2 NSAs have acted with a degree of disregard
for the persons involved which, in a non-Baha'i enterprise,
would be regarded as dysfunctional. I wonder whether there
might be some connection with the idea of making
decisions on the basis of 'principle' - or more precisely,
with a concept of principle which is synonymous with the
more or less narrowly conceived 'interests of the cause'
rather than as the ideals to which we should aspire in our
relationships with one another. In other words, to abstract,
rather than personal, modes. Cause before community.
Collectivity before individuality. I doubt that any reform of
national or international conventions and electoral methods
will even touch this: we need something like a programme
of 'Abdu'l-Bahaization (sorry) from the grass-roots, a
change in the conception of acceptable behaviour.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn
From Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nlMon Nov 6 10:18:02 1995
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 1995 12:40:22 +0100 (MET)
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: local HOW
I have been asked to write something for our national newsletter
to convey some of the ideas regarding the place of worship and
mysticism in Baha'i life. It has to be relatively simple, and
preferably fit on a single 2-column page. I would appreciate your
comments on this draft.
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn
-------------------------------------------------------------
Draft version, 2 November 1995.
The Place of Worship
With the completion of the present building projects on the Arc,
the Baha'i community will enter into a new phase in its
development. It seems to me that the next phase will be
characterized, among other developments, by the maturation of
the principle of the House of Worship in Baha'i community life.
For the Baha'is in Europe this will not entail, in the first place,
large-scale building projects. It might well begin with an
exploration of the place of worship in our individual and
community lives, and how it relates to the principle and
institutions of consultation with which we are already familiar. I
will try to make some connections between the various levels at
which the principle of worship can affect our lives.
The place of worship in transforming our individual lives is
self-evident. There is a Hadith which Baha'u'llah mentions in the
Seven Valleys:
"A servant is drawn nigh unto me in prayer until I answer
him, and when I answer him, I become the ear wherewith
he heareth, the eye wherewith he seeth, the feet
wherewith he walketh..."
To support this transformation, there are a number of spiritual
exercises which are prescribed or offered in the Baha'i Writings:
meditation, daily reading of the writings, the obligatory prayers,
the 'dawn' (or morning) prayers, calling oneself to account each
day, giving thanks to God morning and evening (K33), giving to
the funds, the repetition of the Greatest Name and other forms of
'Remembrance' (dhikr) or repetitive chanting. Ideally these
spiritual exercises become a continual cycle of adoration which
permeates our daily life, so that God is always in our minds, and
we are always in God's thought. [fn: An extract by the Bab to
this effect, from the Arabic Bayan, is translated by Alessandro
Bausani in his Encyclopaedia of Islam article on The Bab.] There
is a wealth of mystic writing, prayers, poems and liturgies in the
Baha'i Writings, representing an aspect of the Baha'i life which is
largely unexplored.
This spiritual life is a journey we have to travel ourselves, but
it is not one which we have to travel alone. Many of the spiritual
exercises could be performed together with others, Baha'is or
non-Baha'is. Some are expressly meant to be performed in
groups, which might be our families, or the Baha'is in a small
suburb, or perhaps a mystics' association. In Memorials of the
Faithful (p. 38) `Abdu'l-Baha says that "Baha'u'llah set apart a
special night and He dedicated it to Darvish Sidq-'Ali. He wrote
that every year on that night the dervishes should bedeck a
meeting place, which should be in a flower garden, and gather
there to make mention of God." Perhaps Darvish Sidq-'Ali, an
early Baha'i mystic, provides an example of the full development
of one side of Baha'i life, just as Mirza Abu'l-Fadl is an example
for Baha'i scholarship.
Another example of the shared spiritual life is found in the
reference of the Universal House of Justice (or ITC?? get
source)... to 'spiritual meetings', which appear to be meetings for
a local Baha'i community devoted not to administration,
deepening, or child education etc., but simply to worship.
Western Baha'i communities which have tried this report that it
has surprising results, not only for the life of the community but
also for teaching. One community in America reported that their
firesides and public events attracted largely middle-class and
white visitors, while their Sunday morning open worship
attracted largely the poorer people from their neighbourhood, and
members of the ethnic minorities. Such spiritual meetings were
highly approved by `Abdu'l-Baha:
Thy proposal that the friends should assemble on Sundays
for the purpose of joining together in worship is most
commendable. As for the manner in which such a
devotional gathering should be conducted: first, the
Friends should read prayers and turn themselves to God,
invoking his aid and assistance; then, when all are
assembled, there should be a period of silent prayer;
lastly, prayers and readings should be recited aloud,
before the whole company of the Friends, in the sweetest
and most melodious of accents. [fn: Robert H. Stockman,
The Baha'i Faith in America, vol. 2 (Oxford: George
Ronald, 1995), p. 105.
]
Perhaps the most important element of the shared spiritual life is
the morning prayers in the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar, as stipulated in
the Kitab-i-Aqdas (K115). The House of Worship does not need
to be a special building, [fn: "The Mashriqu'l-Adhkar is each and
every building which hath been erected in cities and villages for
the celebration of My praise." (K115)] though that may be
preferable. `Abdu'l-Baha says: "In reality, the radiant, pure hearts
are the Mashrak-el-Azcar" [fn: Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha, p 678.]
and praises a Baha'i who had prepared her home as a temporary
Mashriqu'l-Adhkar. [fn: ibid, p 149.] A Baha'i community, in a
suburb, an LSA area, or a wider region, might begin by using
some existing building. What is important is not the shape of the
building, but the fact that meetings of worship are held in it:
If the erection of the House of Worship in a public place
would arouse the hostility of evil-doers, then the meeting
must, in every locality, be held in some hidden place.
Even in every hamlet, a place must be set aside as the
Mashriqu'l-Adhkar, and even though it be underground.
[fn: Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, page
95.]
The visible embodiments of the House of Worship are the
existing Mashriq'ul-Adhkars in every continent, but the principle
of unity in worship which they represent should be part of our
daily lives and the "crowning institution in every Baha'i
community." [fn: Shoghi Effendi, in Baha'i Administration, page
108.] Because the LSA's were chosen by Shoghi Effendi as the
backbone of the developing community and a vehicle to scatter
'points of light' across the globe, we have developed a religious
community which centres on its administration, which in fact
almost consists of administration. But it is the House of Worship,
rather than the House of Justice, which should lie at the heart of
the Baha'i community:
The seat round which [the Administrative Order's]
spiritual, its humanitarian and administrative activities
will cluster are the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar and its
Dependencies. [fn: Shoghi Effendi, World Order of
Baha'u'llah, pages 156-157.]
Unity, in the Baha'i Faith, is organic rather than monolithic. It is
a unity of two or more distinct organs working together, rather
than the merging of separate things into one. Perhaps for this
reason, everything in the Baha'i Faith seems to come in pairs: the
Feast and the Assembly, the appointed arm and the elected, the
Guardian and the Universal House of Justice, Haifa and Bahji,
Baghdad and Shiraz, the national convention and the NSA, the
fund and the Huququllah, 'to know and to worship', and the
House of Justice and the House of Worship. It seems to me that
in our Baha'i community we have been concentrating on
developing the 'House of Justice', and have not properly
developed that side of Baha'i life which is represented by the
'House of Worship'. Perhaps now is the time.
Sen McGlinn
From HICKC89@ollamh.ucd.ieMon Nov 6 10:20:29 1995
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 14:23:13 +0000 (GMT)
From: Vivien Hick
To: Safa Sadeghpour
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Is Science on a Par with Religion?
> >> out very fast.) And let us say a planet made out of molten material
> >> formed around such a star, which is conceivable. What would it mean
> >> to say that such a molten planet, which must be less than a million
> >> years old, has "creatures"?
> >
> >
> >I agree that this is probably the case, but Mr. Stockman, the only
> >preventative to physical life is a high ENTROPY (a system in which
>
> Very true but we must first define what we mean by "life."
This is true, I don't really see any need to constrain life to a
certain short life-time. Hence long reaction times are irrelevant,
and large amorphous gaseous/plasma 'life'-forms are 'feasible.
> If it is accepted
> that live entities must be composed of mostly solids and liquids, and that
> most probably they must be constituted of such highly-combinatorial
> molecules such as C or Si with covalent bonds then the temperature limits
> are much
> narrower. Moreover, temperature might not be too low since most
> organic solvents will solidify, and those that don't will cause reactions
> too slow to account for any reasonable life time constants. Non-organic
> solvents being too
> inactive (He) or harsh (Cl) to permit any valuable interactions.
>
> Thus, it would seem most appropriate to set the limits somewhere between
> 220K to 600K .
>From above, temperatures above 600K are perfectly plausible, however
I do admit that in the presence of a super-massive star long
'life-times are not feasible, because of the very short stellar
life-time. Hence, point very well taken, with regard to life *near*
a super-massive star.
> Also, if substances find themselves in high temperatures their absolute entropy
> will tend to be extremely high, and this will rule out any type of complexity
> that might give rise to life.
>
> Although it might be logically possible for an live organism to exceed these
> temperature limits it must be in gas phase, with extremely low levels of
> complexity (high entropy),
> made of ionic bonds, and must not require any reactions in the liquid phase.
> But, then, we would probably not call it life since nothing close to this
> has ever been encountered.
>
> dearly,
>
>
> Safa
Thanks, D.
Darach Watson,
Dept. of Exp. Physics,
UCD,
Ireland.
From PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.eduMon Nov 6 10:52:54 1995
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 07:34:54 PST8PDT
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: science (objective observation/facts as DEPENDENT concepts)
Hi,
Something from a non-subscribed friend who I have been forwarding
talisman messages about science to. Please "cc" replies to:
rsomerby@interserv.com
Thanks,
EP (PierceED@csus.edu)
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date sent: Thu, 2 Nov 95 22:36:59 PST
From: rsomerby@interserv.com
To: Pierceed@csus.edu
Subject: Talisman
Wow!!! The dialogue between Talismen is rich, diverse, showing as much unity
as oil and water. I printed the messages until my printer's ribbon broke, will
pick up another ribbon tomorrow.
Certainly one of the espoused ideas that "facts" may objectively exist
independent of the observer is an arcane thought, a fundamentalist's dogma.
Most scholars I know march to the tune of a different drummer. For them
meaning comes from context and hidden assumptions. That is, they envision
"facts" as DEPENDENT concepts. Without their default assumptions they have no
meaning. The very words we use paint a worldview. But it is usually
acknowledged that our words do not correspond well with whatever this mystery
is called "Reality". Certainly, objectivity exists. But, FOR example,
non-locality can be as objective as locality, both telling you something
significant about a given phenomenon. On the onehand, the perspective as
locality allows you to measure the position of a form in a Euclidian field,
compared to other forms. On the otherhand, the form's nonlocality says
something about the unity of its field with respect to its energy, revealed in
time as a pattern; like: the form of the eliptic plane that the earth defines
as it revolves around the sun; or its nearly spherical solid pattern as global
earth; its slightly more extended yet distorted pattern inclusive of its
atmosphere; or the shape of the earth as including the effects of its magnetic
field on its associated 'dust' field. In this latter context, the earth has no
absolute 'boundary' as locality. However, the concept of nonlocality is
usually used in the context of the quantum scale of events. I am merely
suggesting that the property exists in some sense at the macroscopic scale, in
addition to its vanishingly small sense as the earth's wave function.
So much for such nonsense, Ron
From tan1@cornell.eduMon Nov 6 11:24:59 1995
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 01:14:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy A. Nolan"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, jrcole@umich.edu
Subject: Covenant
Juan, you have made some comments, in several posts, to which I
would like to respond. Since I am going to disagree strenuously
with you, I say for the record, I do NOT think Juan is
a covenant-breaker, and I do not believe his motives are
malicious. In fact I agree wholeheartedly with much of what
Juan says about human rights, and I sincerely appreciate
the scholarly insights he has provided about the context
of certain passages in the Writings. On certain points,
however, I disagree with Juan in the strongest terms.
Juan, in what I am about to say, it is truly not my intent
to be unkind. I only want to be direct and plain-spoken.
I do not know how to write effectively in a circuitous way.
jc> I recognize that the NSA and the Universal House of Justice
jc>are the ultimate authorities and their rulings are the law. I
jc>just don't think much of some of their rulings, and want to
jc>see them overturned by future, wiser successors.
With regard to the NSA, it is possible, of course, that some of
their rulings need improvement. But I think it is tactless and
ungracious to continually criticize that institution in public.
And, copyright law notwithstanding, Talisman *is* a public place.
As to the Universal House of Justice, their decisions are "the
truth and the purpose of God Himself". Their rulings are
"guarded from mistake". That body is under the unerring guidance
of both the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Regardless of who the members of
the Universal House of Justice are - whether they are nine Kenyan
mathematicians, or nine Inuit schoolteachers, or nine illiterate
Englishmen - no matter who they are, the real author of the
House's decisions is God, through the guidance of the Bab and of
Baha'u'llah. This is a fact that is obvious and undeniable
to anyone who reads and believes the Will and Testament of Abdu'l
Baha. Therefore, to talk of "wiser successors" reveals a lack
of understanding of what the Universal House of Justice is.
In a way, I sympathize with you, Juan. I am often mad at God
for the way the world is. There are lots of things that are not
the way I want them to be. Note that I don't bother getting mad
with the House of Justice, only with God; I believe in going
right to the top. 8^) 8^). But, even though I am sometimes
a malcontent, I am not foolish enough to believe I am actually
right and God is wrong. God, after all is the Source of
knowledge and wisdom.
jc>It is no secret that I and many other Baha'i intellectuals are
jc>furious about the House's suppression of the Baha'i
jc>Encyclopaedia. And this affair is one of the things driving
jc>my suggestions for reform.
I know very little about the Encyclopedia project, and aside from
a few posts to Talisman, I haven't read any of the articles.
However, after reading many posts from some of the major
contributors to the Encyclopedia, I say, candidly that I am
not surprised that the House of Justice has suppressed this work,
at least for the time being. One of the general editors of the
Encyclopedia expressed the view that Abdu'l Baha was
"confused"!!!. I still do not understand how an intelligent,
well-educated Baha'i could ever be capable of entertaining
such a thought. It is ludicrous.
And Juan, a significant scholar and author of at least one
Encyclopedia article has such a shallow understanding of the
Master's Will and Testament that he dares to call decisions
of the Universal House of Justice "silly" and "unjust" (see
below). Juan, as women sometimes say to men:
"You just don't get it, do you."
The Universal House of Justice is always right. Not sometimes,
always. Abdu'l Baha's Will makes this so clear that I am
amazed there is any disagreement on this point. The House
may not always be right in a literalistic, material sense,
but that is a trivial objection. In a spiritual sense, in a moral
sense, in every way that fundamentally counts, there is, in the
world today, no individual or body whose ideas are equal in
wisdom and truth to the decisions of the Universal House of
Justice. I can understand that sometimes the decisions of the
House of Justice may be difficult to understand or to like.
But wisdom and justice are not properly defined by human
likes and dislikes. None of us is guaranteed unfailing, unerring
guidance from the Manifestations of God. The Universal House of
Justice *is* guaranteed precisely this.
jc> And, of course, we are supposed to write letters to the
jc>House. But what if the House is unresponsive (or, worse, the
jc>perpetrator of the injustice, as with the censoring of
jc>Salmani)?
First, I admit total ignorance regarding the Salmani incident to
which you refer. Was it actually the Universal House of Justice
itself that decided to censor this work? Or was it a committee
or an individual. Committees and individuals are of course
capable of injustice...so what else is new? But it is unfair
to blame the Universal House of Justice for an error which is
in fact the responsibility of others.
If, on the other hand, it actually was the Universal House of
Justice itself that made this decision, then it is outrageous
and arrogant to refer to the divinely guided House of Justice
as the "perpetrator of injustice". That body is the "source
of all good and freed from all error." Their decisions are
the "truth and the purpose of God Himself." How can you
possibly believe that the Bab and Baha'u'llah, Who are
the Inspirers of the Universal House of Justice, could ever
be the perpetrators of injustice.?????
Juan, it is obvious from your posts that you do not believe
in the truth of Abdu'l Baha's Will; He said plainly that the
Universal House of Justice is always right, you deny this.
I uphold your right to believe what you think best, but I am
puzzled by something. You remark that you have risked your
life for this Cause. Why would you do that when you clearly
don't believe in this Cause? Why risk your life for a Cause
when you oppose some of the most bedrock principles of this
Cause? It's your business, not mine, but it's a mystery to
me why anyone would risk anything at all for a Cause whose
most basic tenets he denied.
I repeat, I do not associate Juan with covenant-breaking.
I do associate him with muddled thinking.
Tim Nolan
!
From jrcole@umich.eduMon Nov 6 18:33:09 1995
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 11:44:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Stephen Johnson
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: KI pp. 7-9
Since this passage from the Iqan brings up Noah and mentions his nearly
millennium-long life, I thought it might be worthwhile to point to Mirza
Abu'l-Fadl Gulpaygani's *Miracles and Metaphors,* pp. 7-16, which treats
this issue.
Mirza Abu'l-Fadl was asked about the 950-years-long life of Noah by
Shaykh Nuru'd-Din, the second head of the Ahmadiyyah movement. He
replied that there were two views of such matters, the religious and the
scientific.
The religious, he says, hold that one must accept the validity of
whatever is in the Qur'an. In this view, reason cannot prove that Noah
did not live so long, and therefore we must accept the word of the Qur'an.
The scientific or rational view, he says, would focus on the original
sources of the statement. Such a person would point out that
Chinese/Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroastrian and Hebrew Biblical historical
traditions all exist about the ancient world, and that Noah is not
mentioned in the first three. All four traditions, moreover, are tinged
by myth and by stories of the ancients enjoying great longevity. The
source for the Muslim belief in Noah's long life is the Hebrew Bible,
which is uncorroborated by other ancient traditions.
Mirza Abu'l-Fadl clearly adheres to the second view. He then writes:
"The Prophet Muhammad said, `We, the concourse of Prophets, were sent to
address people according to the capacity of their minds.' And likewise,
`Speak to the people of that with which they are familiar; do you wish
God and His Messenger to be called liars?' Thus was it related by the
learned judge Averroes of Spain in his book *Exposition on Methods of
Evidence concerning the Doctrines of the Muslim Community,* citing
al-Bukhari. Therefore, given this situation, it is impermissible for the
scholarly investigator to depend on the verses of the Qur'an and the
traditions of the Prophet in historical questions.
It is clear that the prophets and Manifestations of the Cause of God
were sent to guide the nations, to improve their characters, and to bring
the people nearer to their Source and ultimate Goal. They were not sent
as historians, astronomers, philosophers, or natural scientists . . .
A rational human being will therefore have no doubt that those
things mentioned in the Holy Qur'an such as how the creation commenced,
the debate of the angels, the stories of Adam, of Satan, and of Noah and
the flood, are all realities. These speak of repeated promises to renew
the world and refer to the appointed times for the expiration . . . of
the terms allotted to the nations. But, from the point of view of
science, it is impermissible for the historian to depend on the literal
meaning of these verses."
Mirza Abu'l-Fadl is my hero (I hope this doesn't tarnish his reputation).
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzMon Nov 6 18:36:10 1995
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 07:59:39 +1200
From: Robert Johnston
To: "Eric D. Pierce" ,
talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: rsomerby@interserv.c
Subject: Re: science (objective observation/facts as DEPENDENT concepts)
I agreed when our friend (Ron) of a friend (Eric) wrote:
>Certainly one of the espoused ideas that "facts" may objectively exist
>independent of the observer is an arcane thought, a fundamentalist's dogma.
>Most scholars I know march to the tune of a different drummer. For them
>meaning comes from context and hidden assumptions. That is, they envision
>"facts" as DEPENDENT concepts. Without their default assumptions they have no
>meaning. The very words we use paint a worldview.
What had me puzzled though was his avoidance of reference an obvious
ethical- political-religious (that is, cultural value) dimension in his
instance. From where I am coming from, it is this dimension which is too
often unproblematised in science. Freud, for instance, failed to come to
grips with the cultural specifics of his locale in time, and assumed that
he was uncovering perpetual truths. This is apparent in his discussion of
sex roles, and in his assumption that there will always be wars.
Ron: thanks for your thoughtful contribution.
Robert.
From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzMon Nov 6 18:36:44 1995
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 08:14:31 +1200
From: Robert Johnston
To: Juan R Cole , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: KI pp. 7-9
Dear Juan,
Re:
But, from the point of view of
>science, it is impermissible for the historian to depend on the literal
>meaning of these verses."
Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha clearly state that certain passages from the
Sacred Scriptures are symbolic. What possible advantage is there in
favouring Mirza Abu'l-Fadl's assertion of the same? Do we not all know
that Jesus did not physically ascend to heaven as stated in the Bible? If
you assert the intellectual independence of history from religion, even in
relation to what you call propositional facts, then we are bound to engage
in another (probably endless) round of disputation. Talismanians have not
been able to agree on this despite months of wrangling, and I am still
waiting for a reply from the House regarding Socrates and the Holy Land.
Personally, I feel rather unwilling to walk down this path with you again,
in the meantime. Of course, others may feel like taking the trip with you.
Robert.
From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzMon Nov 6 18:38:00 1995
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 08:35:06 +1200
From: Robert Johnston
To: Christopher Buck , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: whistling in the dark
Dear Chris,
Re:
> I'm frankly amazed that opportunities to learn on this forum
>are compromised by unbridled personal attacks by individuals claiming
>to be *defenders* of the Covenant. Why are the most *religious* posts
>sometimes the most uncomprehending or downright nasty?
Your partiality is showing my dear fellow! ;-} In fairness, please share
with Talismanians the letters in which there exists anything like the
things which you so rancorously assert have been stated.(Perhaps Bob
Ballinger will help you!) And I would ask you too look again at some of the
letters from those you are so passionately defending. Does not justice
enter your reckoning? At Ahang's request Juan has wisely agreed to tone
down some of his stuff. Had it continued, I fear Talisman would have
become a list whistling in the dark.
Robert.
>
> But without recourse, it seems, to prosecuting any reforms
>whatsoever, I don't know what to do about the issues being raised
>here. Even if there was consensus on my proposal about review (a
>proposal that suffered death by silence), what would we do?
>
> If there ever was consensus on Talisman about any reform, what
>next, pray tell? Where is all this leading to? How can transformation
>take place? Inevitably, I think it all boils down to contributing
>something individually to the Faith, like Juan's forthcoming book.
>
> -- Christopher Buck
From 72110.2126@compuserve.comMon Nov 6 18:38:56 1995
Date: 06 Nov 95 14:45:51 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Conditioning the Faith of Another
Dear Talismanians,
I take strong and heated exception to Tim Nolan's slanderous
characterization of Juan Cole's belief in Baha'u'llah and His teachings,
to whit: that he "clearly [doesn't] believe in it."
No man, in this Revelation, is allowed to condition or to judge the faith
of another. No person, in this forum, should be allowed to make such
nasty, degrading and presumptuous comments.
All of us who swear fealty to Baha'u'llah do so voluntarily. Only the
individual him or herself and God have any business in that matter.
I did not join Talisman to hear the kind of base, intolerant ugliness I
have heard in the past few weeks from a small minority of our members.
This forum exists to foster the spirit of scholarship, inquiry and
mutually respectful exchange that 'Abdu'l-Baha praised, not to foster a
descent into name-calling, judgemental labelling and degradation. If you
disagree with someone here on Talisman, you may certainly vent your spleen
toward their ideas, if that is your communication style. You may not,
however, vent your spleen toward their person, or, even worse, their
deepest spiritual and religious feelings and commitments.
Love, in spite of my anger,
David
From 72110.2126@compuserve.comMon Nov 6 18:40:03 1995
Date: 06 Nov 95 14:56:16 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Barred NSA Service
Dear Ahang and other Talismanians,
My first national convention as a delegate was 1983's, in which Allen
Ward was elected to the NSA. My own confusion over the events which
followed his election must have been greater than the veteran delegates,
but I could not imagine, at the time, why he was barred from taking office
after his election. Since then I have heard many Baha'is discuss this
incident, but have yet to see any official explanation.
Warning: the following is therefore hearsay. I claim no knowledge of
its veracity nor its accuracy.
It is my understanding that Allen Ward's election to the NSA was declared
null and void because of his presumed homosexuality. I also understand
that multiple appeals were directed to the Universal House of Justice
regarding the matter, citing the homosexuality of past NSA members and
the Guardian's refusal to bar them from or remove them from office, but
that the UHJ let the NSA decision stand.
If anyone else has information regarding this incident, it might help to
clear the cloud of supposition away.
Love,
David
From M.C.Day@massey.ac.nzMon Nov 6 18:42:14 1995
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 09:35:31 GMT=1200
From: Mary Day
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Rights and appeals
Dear Talismans,
I am very concerned about due process in the functioning of
assemblies both local and national and have been for some time. What
particularly concerns me is that individuals can make accusations
about another person [or body such as a committee or assembly] and
the accuse does not get to see the evidence nor know who has made the
accusation. Some suggestions have been made in relation to Bahai
courts and changes to by-lwas already but I have nothing to add to
that conversation as I don't have the necessary background knowledge.
It also seems like that sort of change would be a long way off
whereas there are possibilites for imddeiate improvements without
waiting that long.
What justification if any is there in the writings for anybody to be
able to make accusations and maintain their anonymity from the one
accused? Is there any support for this in the Writings? Or is this an
interpretation of the meaning of Assembly confidentiality? I would
like to know the same thing in regard to accusations made to
counsellors, Auxiliary board membersand assistants.
If anybody can help here I would be very grateful and will then
continue with my argument about immediate changes that could be made.
Thanks
Mary
From dpeden@imul.comMon Nov 6 18:42:54 1995
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 95 23:30:51+030
From: Don Peden
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Sen:
I really liked your postings. Very clear and well thought out. Thanks for
getting things back on track.
The idea of the grassroots change in our manner towards each other, and the
development of the spiritual life as a centre of community interaction is
really at the core of all these tirades we have been discussing. It creates
the environment for the other issues to find their path. Thanks for
bringing us back to that point.
Your practical suggestions for reform make a lot of sense. I like the idea
that no two countries need follow the same pattern. It allows communities
to develop according to their needs, not trying to emulate other
communities, and, I think, would contribute to the preservation of their
distinct characters while at the same time facilitating their participation
in a global community...unity through diversity. Excellent!
Has any National Assembly asked to change the number of membership and been
refused by the House of Justice? If they have, does anyone know the
background of thinking of the House of Justice?
Step-by-step also makes good sense.
Your suggestions about a two step elections and convention reforms intrigue
me. Could you give a more specific description about what it might "look