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Subject: 'Abdu'l-Baha & other faiths
From: stephenf@jove.acs.unt.edu (Stephen Andrew Fuqua)
Date: 29 May 1995 09:19:58 -0400
Message-ID: <3qchlu$ie0@virgo.cs.cornell.edu>

Alla-u-abha friends!

I have had an interesting question posed by a seeker. Maybe one of you
can help...

He said he has figured out that 'Abdu'l-Baha *is* supposed to be
infallible as regards the interpretation, etc of Baha'i Scripture, but is
he infallible as regards interpretation of the scripture of other
faiths?

Any responses would be most kind!

Peace,
Stpehen A. Fuqua
stephenf@jove.acs.unt.edu

To: PayamA@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Bcc:
From: ahriazati@ccgate.hac.com
Subject: Re: any answers?
Date: Tuesday, May 30, 1995 20:23:41 EZT
Attach:
Certify: N
Forwarded by:

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Dear Payam; Allah'u'abha
Concerning your question about the station of the beloved Master
in regards to the scriptures of the pervious revelations; By
reading the Tablets such as " Tablet of Branch" and the stations
that His holiness Baha'u'llah confers upon Him on one hand and
also by going through the Commentaries that He has revealed on
the various Islamic and Christian subjects we can by absolute
certainty conclude that whatever was revealed from His pen was
infallible.

To cite one example: When He (* The Master *) still very young.
One of the none-Baha'is asked His holiness Baha'u'llah to reveal
a commentary on a famous tradition; and He (* Baha'u'llah *)
passed the request to the Master and then Baha'u'llah exalted be
His Name, glorified the commentary and the station of the beloved
Master.

Another yet more powerful example is the book called " Secret of
Divine Civilization" in which the Master explains some of the
sayings of the old. After this book, His holiness Baha'u'llah
exalted the work in a matchless language .

Finally; in my very humble opinion by reading :" Dispensation Of Baha'u'llah"
of the beloved Guardian, we instantly notice that the station
of the beloved Master is uniquely MATCHLESS. To consider Him to
be a Manifestation is WRONG and also to look at Him to be a mere
interpreter in the SAME LIGHT as we have been doing it before is
also according to the beloved guardian is WRONG.

With my Warmest regards; Habib Riazati


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: any answers?
Author: PayamA@aol.com at CCGATE
Date: 5/29/95 9:15 PM

Subject: 'Abdu'l-Baha & other faiths
From: stephenf@jove.acs.unt.edu (Stephen Andrew Fuqua)
Date: 29 May 1995 09:19:58 -0400
Message-ID: <3qchlu$ie0@virgo.cs.cornell.edu>

Alla-u-abha friends!

I have had an interesting question posed by a seeker. Maybe one of you
can help...

He said he has figured out that 'Abdu'l-Baha *is* supposed to be
infallible as regards the interpretation, etc of Baha'i Scripture, but is
he infallible as regards interpretation of the scripture of other
faiths?

Any responses would be most kind!

Peace,
Stpehen A. Fuqua
stephenf@jove.acs.unt.edu

Perhaps something interesting for those of you who need to produce
documents in Arabic or in transliteration.

Brent

From iskandar@tamu.edu Wed May 17 23:39:15 1995
Cc: Arabic script mailing list <reader@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: Arabic software

On Wed, 17 May 1995, Crag Markwood wrote:

> Hello
> I am looking for Arabic language learning software. Could you recommend
> any? Thank you,

The only two resources on the net I know about are ~mac/Al-Jaleys which
is a manual [to be printed] and ~win3/naatiq which is a pronunciation
teacher [demo]

The files are under ftp.u.washington.edu/public/reader

There might be others, but I don't know them off hand, so I am cc:ing
my reply to the reader mailing list in the hope that someone else will
know more.

alex
________

From DIL@jc.byu.ac.il Thu May 18 01:39:26 1995
From: "Dilworth B. Parkinson" <DIL@jc.byu.ac.il>
Subject: Arabic-L:LING:Query Responses
To: arabic-l@byu.edu
Organization: BYU Jerusalem Center

Date: 17 May 1995
From: Roberta L. Dougherty <rld@pobox.upenn.edu>
Subject: Indexes of Arabic Periodicals

Dear Mark,

The only indexes of Arabic periodicals I am aware of are:

_al-Fihrist_ (Beirut)

_Periodica Islamica_ (Kuala Lumpur)
[of course not really an index but sort of an Arabic version of _Current
Contents_]

If anyone knows of any other general indexes to Arabic periodicals, I
would be glad to hear about them.

--
Roberta L. Dougherty
Middle East Bibliographer &
Head, Middle East Technical Services
University of Pennsylvania Libraries
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104
telephone: (215) 898-3795
fax: (215) 898-0559
e-mail: rld@pobox.upenn.edu
______________________________________________________________

To: reader@rama.poly.edu
From: Bo.Isaksson@afro.uu.se (Bo Isaksson)
Subject: Short review of LeedsBit Fonts

The LeedsBit Fonts package is a shareware utility to make accented (and
macroned, and dotted, etc.) characters available in the MS Word for Windows
2 (and 6) environment. I got it from the following address:

ftp://archive.orst.edu/pub/mirrors/ftp.cica.indiana.edu/win3/winword/leedsbi
t.zip

It must be said beforehand that I am looking for a good transliteration font
utility for Semitic languages, which does not seem to be the primary aim of
the package. This fact accounts for some of my (modest) criticism below.
LeedsBit fonts were created by Alec McAllister to enable users "to do
multilingual word-processing in any combination of over 60 languages which
use the Latin Alphabet."

Nevertheless LeedsBit fonts is a very able utility even for transliteration
purposes, the best sharheware package I have tested, and with a few
additions it will fullfil such a task satisfactorily.

Installation is easy. You just copy the template leedsbit.dot to the
directory where the winword templates resides, and then install the TrueType
fonts in the Windows control panel. The allocation of the macros in
leedsbit.dot to the specified keys on the Number Key Pad did not function
directly. To get the allocations of keys to macros functioning I hade to use
the macro utility (contained in leedsbit.dot) AutoAssignToKey for every
macro. Thanks for the introduction to Key Codes in Appendix 1! When done,
all is functioning as described.

The process of getting an accented character is this: first type the
"normal" character (without accent or dot), then type the key that supplies
the specific accent needed. For example, an "a" with macron obove is written
by typing "a" and then "7" on the numeric key pad. In reality, the "7"
starts a macro called LeedsBitMacron which performs the complex task of
determining which character was just written ("a"), deleting it, then
chosing the right font (the accented charachters are supplied on five
LeedsBit Fonts), and chosen the correct character (a with macron) in that
font. The function is very handy indeed.

In this way you get

Acute accent on many characters by typing / on the num key pad
Grave accent on many characters by typing * on the num key pad
Circumflex on many characters by typing - on the num key pad
Macron on many characters by typing 7 on the num key pad
Superscript of many characters by typing 8 on the num key pad
Hachek on many characters by typing 9 on the num key pad
Breve over or under many characters by typing 4 on the num key pad
Dot below many characters by typing . on the num key pad
etc.

As a Semitist I'd like to have g (and G) with hachek (Arabic "jim"), s (and
S) with accent grave (konsonant in Ugaritic), t (and T) with macron below
(Arabic "tha"), e E i I o O v V and y Y with breve, and special characters
for Arabic hamza and 'ayn. In the present fonts you have to use variants of
the question mark (?) without dot for hamza and 'ayn, a solution I do not
like very much.

A more general criticism of the package concerns its basic technical
approach: It is a MS Word for Windows utililty relying on WordBasic macros.
This means that its functionality is not available in other Windows
applications, although of course the fonts are. Another drawback, is the
solution to use several fonts to account for the great number of accented
characters needed. The approach to use fixed charachters where the accent
(or dot och macron) and the basic character form one character and take up
one position in the fontscheme (and one ascii code) has the advantage that
it is easier to make the accents and dots perfectly allign to the basic
characters. The drawback, however, is that many fonts are needed, which
makes LeedsBit fonts hard to use in database programs as Access, where only
one font may be used in a single field (the only exception I know is
Filemaker Pro for Windows, which permits shifting of fonts within the same
database field).

In my opinion the best but most laborious solution is a carefully made
one-font alternative with "loose" accents added to the basic letters in a
way that the composite characters become perfectly aligned, in spite of the
font being proportionately spaced. This is not an easy task, and calls for
professional skill in font making companies, and will perhaps not be
available as shareware.

The final solution though, will be the new two-byte standard, for fonts,
called Unicode, which will permit over 65.000 characters (as against 256
today) in the same font. I hope this will function well in the new Windows
95. By the way, the Unicode standard is used by Gamma Productions in their
Word Processor Gamma Universe and the font utility Gamma Unitype. Gamma's
monospaced transliteration font, is, however, awkward.

Bo Isaksson

__________________________________________________________________
Associate prof. Bo Isaksson
Uppsala University
Department of Asian and African Languages
P.O.Box 513, S-751 20 Uppsala, Sweden
Tel. +46-18-18 10 02, Fax. +46-18-18 10 94
E-mail: bo.isaksson@afro.uu.se
__________________________________________________________________

From: Frank Unlandherm <unlandhe@columbia.edu>
To: gpoirier <gpoirier@acca.nmsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Middle East Gopher
In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 17 May 1995 21:13:36 -0600 (MDT)

If you want to see Columbia's Middle East Gopher, and more especially
the Directory of Middle East Scholars, the instructions are below. We
brought up the Directory yesterday and its data base is small but
growing. For now, it will be indexed at least once a week, so it may
take a few days for your entry to appear publicly.

To get MEG, simply gopher to:<gopher.cc.columbia.edu.71> and then
navigate down through the menus as follows:CLIO Plus/Selected
Topics../MIDDLE EAST. (Be sure to use port 71) If you have a gopher
client software, use the following pointer (Bookmark):
Type 1
Name=The Middle East Gopher
Host+gopher.cc.columbia.edu
Port=71
Path=1/clioplus/scholarly/MidEast

OR

Simply telnet to:<columbianet.columbia.edu>. Once copnnected to
Columbianet, select the menu item marked CLIO PLUS. Within that menu,
you will find and item labelled SLECTED TOPICS:Internet Resources by
Subject. Select that one, and within it you will find MEG.

OR

If you use MOSAIC or LYNX or other web-browser, use this URL:

gopher://gopher.cc.columbia.edu:71/11/clioplus/scholarly/MidEast

Frank

From: Alexandre Khalil <iskandar@eesun2.tamu.edu>
To: C R Pennell <hiscrp@leonis.nus.sg>
Cc: Arabic script mailing list <reader@rama.poly.edu>
Subject: Re: Arabic software

The FAQ says:

> - U.S. Customers are not eligble for the upgrade. However, you can purchase
> Windows/Arabic from:
>
> Glyph Systems
> P.O. Box 134
> Andover, MA 01810
> Tel: (508) 470-1317
> Fax: (508) 474-8087
>
> The price is about twice as much as the domestic version. Glyph also
> sells additional fonts such as Kufic amd Rokaa.

Unfortunately, I do not know the prices, and doubt that there are
academic discounts.

alex
Subject: Arabic Windows for Workgroups (fwd)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Organization: Department of Electrical Engineering, Texas A&M University
From: digitek326@aol.com (Digitek326)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Arabic Windows for Workgroups
Date: 19 May 1995 08:46:59 -0400

Sakhr Software's Arabic Operating System (A)S) runs on either Windows 3.1
or Windows for Workgroups 3.11. This is one program; no need to buy two
copies. The AOS also comes bundled with Al-Moharrer, Sakhr's modest
(though more full-featured than Write) built-in wordprocessor. For more
information contact Digitek at 7038830134 or fax 7038830137.

-------------------------------------
From: Brent Poirier

There were some questions about the buildings on the Arc that
were posted at that time which I did not reply to, and I wondered
if you would be kind enough to forward this to Talisman.

Richard Hollinger asked where in the writings there was a
reference to construction of a building for the Guardian. Also,
there was a discussion of whether the construction of these
buildings will not merely synchronize with, but will have an
impact on, the Lesser Peace.

The building for the Guardian and the issue of synchronizing are
both addressed in the following quote from Shoghi Effendi:

The raising of this Edifice [International Archives
building] will in turn herald the construction, in the
course of successive epochs of the Formative Age of the
Faith, of several other structures, which will serve as the
administrative seats of such divinely appointed institutions
as the Guardianship, the Hands of the Cause, and the
Universal House of Justice. These Edifices will, in the
shape of a far-flung arc, and following a harmonizing style
of architecture, surround the resting-places of thGreadest
Holy Leaf, ranking as foremost among the members of her sex
in the Baha'i Dispensation, of her Brother, offered up as a
ransom by Baha'u'llah for the quickening of the world and
its unification, and of their Mother, proclaimed by Him to
be His chosen "consort in all the worlds of God." The
ultimate completion of this stupendous undertaking will mark
the culmination of the development of a world-wide
divinely-appointed Administrative Order whose beginnings may
be traced as far back as the concluding years of the Heroic
Age of the Faith.
This vast and irresistible process, unexampled in the
spiritual history of mankind, and which will synchronize
with two no less significant developments - the
establishment of the Lesser Peace and the evolution of
Baha'i national and local institutions - the one outside and
the other within the Baha'i world - will attain its final
consummation, in the Golden Age of the Faith, through the
raising of the standard of the Most Great Peace, and the
emergence, in the plenitude of its power and glory, of the
focal Center of the agencies constituting the World Order of
Baha'u'llah.
(Messages to the Baha'i World, pp. 74-75, and included in
the Compilations on Peace and on the Establishment of the
Universal House of Justice)

I see support for the view that the construction of Baha'i
edifices has an influence in the world. The Guardian refers to
the impact on the world of other Baha'i structures in these
passages:

Again I feel the urge to remind you one and all of the
necessity of keeping ever in mind this fundamental verity
that the efficacy of the spiritual forces centering in, and
radiating from, the first Mashriqu'l-Adhkar in the West will
in a great measure depend upon the extent to which we, the
pioneer workers in that land will, with clear vision,
unquenchable faith, and inflexible determination, resolve to
voluntarily abnegate temporal advantages in our support of
so meritorious an endeavor. The higher the degree of our
renunciation and self-sacrifice, the wider the range of the
contributing believers, the more apparent will become the
vitalizing forces that are to emanate from this unique and
sacred Edifice; and the greater, in consequence, the
stimulating effect it will exert upon the propagation of the
Faith in the days to come. (Baha'i Administration, p. 154;
also see Ibid. pp. 181-182, and God Passes By, p. 351)

The Guardian also comments on other examples of synchronization
which he finds to be of "singular significance" on p. 53 of
"Citadel of Faith." Also, in Messages to America, p. 33, he
writes of the forces released in the Holy Land because of the
entombment of the Master's family on Mount Carmel.

However, the Guardian does not always use the word "synchronize"
to imply a cause and effect relationship. For example, he
distinguishes between "synchronize" and "flow from" in the course
of his discussion of certain events during the Adrianople period
of Baha'u'llah's ministry:

These notable developments, some synchronizing with, and
others flowing from, the proclamation of the Faith of
Baha'u'llah, and from the internal convulsion which the
Cause had undergone, could not escape the attention of the
external enemies of the Movement, who were bent on
exploiting to the utmost every crisis which the folly of its
friends or the perfidy of renegades might at any time
precipitate. (God Passes By, pp. 177-178)

My own view is that the Guardian was implying more than mere
contemporaneous events, when he spoke of the construction of the
Arc synchronizing with the Lesser Peace. The House of Justice
sees the synchronization as more than simultaneity. It refers to
"dynamic synchronization" and to the "spiritual energies"
released by the construction of the Seat of the House of Justice:
That there are indications that the Lesser Peace cannot be
too far distant, that the local and national institutions of
the Administrative Order are growing steadily in experience
and influence, that the plans for the construction of the
remaining administrative edifices on the Arc are in an
advanced stage -- that these hopeful conditions make more
discernible the shaping of the dynamic synchronization
envisaged by Shoghi Effendi, no honest observer can deny.
(Ridvan 1990 letter from the Universal House of Justice)


The great work of constructing the terraces, landscaping
their surroundings, and erecting the remaining buildings of
the Arc will bring into being a vastly augmented World
Centre structure which will be capable of meeting the
challenges of coming centuries and of the tremendous growth
of the Baha'i community which the beloved Guardian has told
us to expect. Already we see the effect of the spiritual
energies which the completion of the Seat of the Universal
House of Justice has released, and the new impulse this has
given to the advancement of the Faith. Who can gauge what
transformations will be effected as a result of the
completion of each successive stage of this great
enterprise?
(Letter from the Universal House of Justice, "Completing the
Arc on Mount Carmel," 31 August 1987; "Six Year Plan
Messages from the Universal House of Justice," pp. 24-36)

I see the construction of the Arc
as an example of the "mysterious ways" of the Cause, "ways" which
Shoghi Effendi states are "utterly at variance with the standards
accepted by the generality of mankind":

That the Cause associated with the name of Baha'u'llah feeds
itself upon those hidden springs of celestial strength which
no force of human personality, whatever its glamour, can
replace; that its reliance is solely upon that mystic Source
with which no worldly advantage, be it wealth, fame, or
learning can compare; that it propagates itself by ways
mysterious and utterly at variance with the standards
accepted by the generality of mankind, will, if not already
apparent, become increasingly manifest as it forges ahead
towards fresh conquests in its struggle for the spiritual
regeneration of mankind.
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, pp. 51-52)

Thanks, John.

Brent Poirier
gpoirier@acca.nmsu.edu

-------------------------------------

from: Juan Cole

Among those who discouraged a literalist approach to scripture
interpretation was Baha'u'llah Himself. I am posting my provisional
translation of Baha'u'llah's "Commentary on the Surah of the Sun" along
with a brief introduction, in an effort to open up the discussion. The
translation is only provisional; an earlier version of it was kindly
published by the preeminent Baha'i scholar Stephen Lambden in his *Baha'i
Studies Bulletin*, under the auspices of the NSA of the UK; I think the
translation is good enough to form the basis of some discussions here,
but the friends should please remember that it is provisional.

cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan

Baha'u'llah's "Commentary on the Surah of the Sun"
Introduction and Provisional Translation
by
Juan R.I. Cole

Qur'an commentary proved an important literary genre in
Shaykhism, Babism, and the early Baha'i Faith, the three religious traditions
that formed the matrix for the emergence of the modern Baha'i community.
One perspicacious observer has already drawn attention to the paradox
implicit in Babi scripture consisting in part of commentary on previous
scripture. Although such commentary played a considerably less
important role in Baha'u'llah's writings, some Qur'an commentary (Tafsir)
does occur in them. Here I would like to bring attention to a central text
for this issue, Baha'u'llah's commentary on Surah 91 of the Qur'an, "The
Sun" (ash­Shams). Obviously, where Baha'u'llah himself says something
about how one should go about interpreting scripture, the Baha'!
commentator must take it extremely seriously. Yet this Arabic Tablet,
written during the `Akka period, has not to my knowledge been discussed
in Baha'! literature. Muhyi'd­Din Sabri, the Kurdish­Egyptian intellectual
who undertook an important compilation of Baha'u'llah's Tablets and
published them in Cairo in 1920, thought the commentary so important that
he placed it first in the book. In this work, Baha'u'llah sets out some
general guidelines for commenting on scripture, and I offer a translation of
it in Appendix II below, with some brief comments here.
Before turning to the hermeneutical and exegetical principles
elaborated by Baha'u'llah in his brief commentary on the Surah of the Sun,
written at the request of one of the Ottoman ulama, some of this tablet's
general features should be mentioned. First, the reader will be struck by
the eloquence of Baha'u'llah's Arabic. Unlike his Baghdad and Edirne
works, this piece completely conforms to the conventions of standard
nineteenth­century Arabic, showing neither the Persian grammatical
influences we find elsewhere nor the Dadaist, Babi disdain for conventional
grammar apparent in some earlier works. Some of its passages display a
fine literary flair, such as Baha'u'llah's satirical description of how the
sciences of rhetoric and grammar cultivated in Muslim polite society had
caused him so much grief.
My main interest in this tablet, however, derives from the manner in
which Baha'u'llah expresses himself on how he thinks scripture commentary
should be carried out. He shows himself altogether opposed to literalism
and what we might now call fundamentalism. "Know thou," Baha'u'llah
writes in this Tablet, "that whoso clingeth to the outward sense of the
words, leaving aside their esoteric significance, is simply ignorant." One
has only to examine classical Qur'an commentaries such as that of al­
Baydawi, to see such an exoteric approach at work. For al­Baydawi, the
sun is the sun is the sun. On the other hand, Baha'u'llah has equally little
patience with those mystics or sectarians who wholly neglect the plain,
commonsense meaning of scripture in favor of wild, unanchored flights of
speculation. "Only the one," he concludes, "who interpreteth the verses
esoterically while harmonizing this reading with their literal meaning
can be
said to be a complete scholar." The Muslim civilization had developed an
elaborate apparatus for understanding the literal or outward (az­zahir)
meaning of a verse of scripture. It included the study of Arabic grammar,
lexicology, and rhetoric so that the commentator could be sure he
understood the structural place of the various elements in the verse. That
is, the scholar had to take into account syntax and morphology, as well as
seeking the meaning of obscure words in parallel usages in pre­Islamic
poetry. The commentator also attempted to put the chapters of the Qur'an
in chronological order and studied their context in the biographies of the
Prophet and in a literature known as "occasions of revelation" (asbab an­
nuzul). Baha'u'llah clearly requires that commentators attain such
linguistic
and historical competency, all of which is required for an understanding of
the verse's outward meaning.
The outward sense of the verse must not be disregarded in
Baha'u'llah's view. In his Most Holy Book, he castigated those who
performed an esoteric exegesis (ta'wil) on revealed verses, accusing them
of corrupting the word of God. An entire disregard for the literal,
commonsense meaning of scripture would open the door, after all, for
antinomianism. Baha'u'llah, weary of the endless parade of Babi
manifestations of God, at one point in the Most Holy Book declares
himself the last prophet who will arise for at least 1,000 years. Yet Babis
were nothing if not clever in matters of numerology, and he felt it necessary
specifically to forbid believers to interpret this verse in anything but
a literal
manner, excluding esoteric exegesis or ta'wil. He feared that too
subjective an approach to hermeneutics could harm his religion, especially
if applied to matters of law and authority.
On the other hand, an exegesis concerned wholly with details of
grammar and items of lexicology could only deaden the soul. In his
commentary on the Surah of the Sun, Baha'u'llah goes beyond such dry
exercises in pedantry, advising exegetes to set up a tension between the
outward and the manifold subjective meanings of scriptural verses, and let
them play off one another. Here, it seems to me, the cultural tradition in
which Baha'u'llah stood, of Persian mysticism and gnosticism, resonates
rather nicely with aspects of contemporary postmodernism. Baha'u'llah
completely rejected the primacy of common­sense or positivist approaches
to meaning. A proposition, in his view, had many potential meanings, tens
of them, not just a single literal one. Some might prefer to think of this
stance as the positing of "polyvalence," or many levels of meaning, in
scripture. Others may see it in postmodern terms as semantic ambiguity or
instability. In either case, the multiple meanings inscribed in statements
and texts derives from both the diversity of human perceptions and from
the multiple nature of reality itself. Reality is not exhausted by what
can be
experienced by sense­perception, as a positivist would maintain. Rather,
reality consists of a series of graded "planes" or "stations" (rutbah,
maqam), which run the spectrum between pure Being and pure
nothingness. At the pole of pure Being is the plane of absolute unity,
which is the domain of God's preexistent essence. Below this domain is the
plane of God's Word or Command, the domain of the Logos. Then come
various lesser stations or planes of the created, contingent world. Some of
these planes have to do with human psychology and the attainment of
certain mystical states, and they are often metaphorically called by
Baha'u'llah "cities" or "valleys," in Persian mystical style. Thus, we have
the city or plane of rid, wherein the believer radiantly acquiesces in
whatever God wills for him or her. All this is well­known, of course. But
the point I want to make here is that Baha'u'llah envisions these various
planes or stations of reality, whether they be metaphysical or psychological,
as sites of discourse. A person speaks from some plane and understands
the discourse of others within the subjective context of that particular
plane
or station which he or she inhabits at that moment. A verse of
scripture, in
short, will carry a different meaning to different believers, depending on
what plane they inhabit, or even depending upon what plane they are
meditating on when considering the verse.
Any verse of scripture, then, carries an obvious literal sense, along
with a myriad of metaphorical or subjective significations which will differ
from believer to believer, and from station to station. A proper exegesis
would take account of these several semantic dimensions. Thus, when the
Qur'an represents God as taking an oath by the sun and "by the moon when
it followeth it!" one may say on the prosaic plane that the Qur'an is
appealing to the grandeur of nature in order to exalt its Creator. But
according to Baha'u'llah, such terms as sun and moon also carry a great
many subjective or metaphorical meanings for the believer who meditates
upon them. In the station of absolute divine unity, the sun refers to the
emanations of the Self or the Primal Will upon creation, a reference to
Neoplatonic conceptions of metaphysics and theology wherein a demiurge
emanates from God, from whom in turn emanates the contingent world. In
other stations, on other planes, the sun can refer to prophets, or to imams
and saints. The potential numbers of referents for the word sun are
infinite,
depending upon the station in which the word is considered. Unlike the
case in postmodernism, these contending significations appear to war with
one another only if one neglects to take account their various semantic
levels, which exist in a hierarchical arrangement. Disputes among believers
about the metaphorical sense of a particular passage might arise if the two
believers were speaking from, or in the context of, different metaphysical
or psychological planes.
This polyvalence or semantic ambiguity is what makes it impossible
for any believer to promulgate an authoritative interpretation of
scripture.
Any individual's interpretation would be bounded by his or her stage of
spiritual development, and readers dwelling on other planes would interpret
in a wholly different manner the proof­texts of which the exegete made
use.
The ability of `Abdu'l­Baha and Shoghi Effendi to interpret scripture
authoritatively for the community appears primarily to have concerned the
legal or doctrinal implications of the verses' outward meanings; neither
suggested that he had exhausted the verses' esoteric meanings. Even this
central teaching authority is now absent in the Baha'i Faith, leaving even
greater scope for a decentralization of theology. With the passing of the
guardianship, the new leadership of the Baha'i Faith, the Universal House
of Justice (elected in 1963), has the prerogative only of legislating on
matters not covered by scripture. The authority to interpret scripture was
confined solely to the Guardian, and the Universal House of Justice, Shoghi
Effendi wrote, would never "infringe upon the sacred and prescribed
domain" of interpretation.
The multiple meanings inscribed in texts, then, requires that Baha'is
tolerate a wide variety of theologies within their faith, recognizing the
subjective element in exegesis. I do not myself find this prospect at all
problematic. All world­religions have in fact been very diverse, but their
ecclesiastical representatives have often attempted to deny that diversity
and to play upon the community's anxieties about ambiguity in order to
gain more power by persecuting those they branded heretics. Islam, for
instance, encompasses persons in West Africa who have essentially the
same mindset and basic beliefs as their neighbors who follow indigenous
African religions, as well as encompassing Indian Muslim villagers who, in
their illiterate ecumenism, often call upon Hindu deities for help.
Admittedly, modern literacy, printing, and mass media are making inroads
against this kind of localism and popular syncretism. But for most of
history, the world­religions have been little more than umbrellas under
which all sorts of folk and local practices were pursued. The Qur'an clearly
meant something different to the Gambian Muslims than it did to those in
South India. A fundamentalist might argue that these mostly illiterate
believers misunderstood their own religion. But that would require the
absurd conclusion that the vast majority of Muslims have been daily
misunderstanding Islam for 1400 years. The alternative explanation, that a
world­religion necessarily involves the subsuming under a few broad
symbols of millions of localistic subjectivities, is hateful to
fundamentalists
because it challenges their conviction that there is only one, literalist
way to
read scripture.
In matters of theology, Baha'is have the magnificent opportunity to
let a thousand flowers bloom. Many of the otherwise admirable saintly
figures in human history, from St. Augustine to Sir Thomas More, have
been guilty of having heretics burned to death. This hypocrisy was forced
upon them by the vain belief that it was possible and necessary to achieve
an absolute creedal consensus within their religious community. Baha'u'llah
himself made this sort of ugly Inquisition wholly unnecessary by
recognizing the ambiguity and semantic instability of texts, even revealed
ones. His theory of exegesis deserves a more rigorous investigation than I
can offer here. I think the idea of plane­specific semantic universes
offers a
fascinating area for the interplay of Baha'! ideas with those of modern
philosophers of language such as Wittgenstein, Eco, and Derrida. But the
most important and lasting contribution of Baha'u'llah's exegetical
principles may be the creation, at last, of a self­consciously diverse world
religion, which achieves unity, not by Inquisition, but by tolerance.

Appendix I
Qur'an 91, The Surah of the Sun

By the sun and its noonday brightness!
By the moon when it followeth it!
By the day when it revealeth its glory!
By the night when it enshroudeth it!
By the heaven and that which built it!
By the earth and that which spread it forth!
By a soul and Him who fashioned it!
And informed it of its wickedness and its piety;
Blessed now is he who hath kept it pure,
and undone is he who hath corrupted it!
Thamud in their insolence rejected their prophet,
When the greatest wretch among them rushed up:
Said the Apostle of God to them, "The Camel of God! Let her drink."
But they treated him as an impostor and hamstrung her.
So their Lord destroyed them for their crime, and visited all alike:
Nor feared He the issue thereof.

[Translation based on Rodwell, but modified by Cole, sometimes with
reference to Arberry.]

Appendix II

Baha'u'llah's

Commentary on the Surah of the Sun

(Provisional Translation by
Juan R.I. Cole, University of Michigan
Revised 4 April 1994)

In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate
Praise be to God, Who hath set the dove of eloquence, perched
among the twigs of the tree of explanation, to weaving her divers
melodies.
Her lyrics tell of how there is no God but God, Who hath brought new
beings into existence, and created the contingent world by means of His
Primal Will, whereby He hath caused to exist all that was and yet shall
be.
May God be glorified, Who hath embellished the heavens of reality with the
sun of metaphorical meanings and mystical insight, as inscribed by the Pen
of the Most High. Sovereignty belongeth to God, the Omnipotent, the
Help in Peril, the Self­Subsisting. He hath brought forth the Most Great
Ocean, which uniteth in itself the waters flowing from the spring of the
letter H, which flow into the Most Ancient Name (Baha), from which the
Primal Point was separated off, and whereby the unifying Word hath
become manifest and both spiritual truth and religious law were revealed.
The upholders of the divine unity broke through its surface and soared up
into the heavens of ecstasy and divine presence. The sincere ones thus
attained the beatific vision of their Lord, the All­Glorious, the Devoted
Friend.
Then peace and blessings be upon the Dawning­Place of the Most
Beautiful Names and the Most Exalted Attributes, in every letter of Whose
appellation the Divine Names are treasured up, and whereby existence
itself, whether visible or invisible, hath been adorned. He was called
Muhammad in the realm of names, and Ahmad in the Kingdom of eternity.
And peace be upon His House and His Companions, from this day until
that upon which the Tongue of Grandeur shall speak forth. Sovereignty
belongs to God, the One, the All­Conquering.
Your letter reached Us, and We have perused it, with all its
allusions. We beseech God to aid thee in doing that which He loves, that
He might bring thee nigh unto the shores of that sea from which rise up the
waves of the Name of thy Lord, the Most High. Every drop thereof saith,
"There is no God but God, the Creator of all Names and of the Heavens
above."
O questioner, if thou seekest the Sacred Fold and the Sinai of divine
proximity, then cleanse thy heart of all else but Him. Remove the sandals
of thy suppositions and idle fancies, that thou mightest see with the eye of
thine heart the effulgences of God, the Lord of the Throne and of the
Earth. For this is the day of unveiling and witnessing. Separation hath
passed away, and union hath arrived. This is from the bounty of thy Lord,
the Cherished, the Beloved. Leave posing questions and seeking answers
to the people of this earth, and ascend by the wings of abnegation into
those skies wherein thou shalt draw nigh to the clemency of thy Lord, the
Merciful, the Compassionate.
Say: O people, the Primal Point hath been revealed, the Universal
Word hath been brought to fruition, and the kingdom of God, the Help in
Peril, the Self­Subsisting, hath been made manifest. Say: O people, ye
disport yourselves in a puddle, oblivious to the sweet sea that billoweth
before your faces. What aileth ye, that ye comprehend not? Do ye speak
forth with the knowledge ye possess when He hath appeared, Who knew
the Point of Knowledge that generated all things, and to which they all
returned? From this Point did issue God's own words of wisdom, and
sciences that yet remain concealed in the treasuries of the purity of thy
Lord, the Exalted, the Almighty. Leave allusions to those trapped in them,
and set out toward that station wherein ye shall perceive the fragrances of
knowledge from His heavens. Thus counseleth ye this Servant, every
member, every artery, of whose body testifieth that there is no God save
He. He ever subsisted in the zenith of His might and glory, and in the
heights of His honor and radiance. The Ones He sent with truth and
guidance are the Dawning­places of His revelation to all creation, and the
Daysprings of His inspiration among His servants. Through them were the
mysteries unveiled, and the divine Laws legislated, and by Them was
realized the Cause of God, the All­Powerful, the Mighty, the
Unconstrained. No God is there but He, the Omniscient, the All­Knowing.
O questioner, know thou that the people pride themselves upon
knowledge, and praise it, whereas this Servant complaineth of it. For
without it Baha would not have been imprisoned in Akka with extreme
abasement, nor would He have drunk from the cup of woes proffered by
His enemies. Eloquence hath banished Me, and the science of rhetoric
brought Me low. My mention of conjunction [union with God] hath torn
Me limb from limb. My succinctness hath provoked a long­winded
affliction, grammar hath deprived Me of all comfort, and syntax hath
disordered the pleasures of My heart. My knowledge of God's mysteries
hath become a chain about my neck. Given all this, how can I respond to
your question concerning the verses revealed from the heavens of majesty
and grandeur, especially since the hearts of the discerning have failed to
comprehend them, and the minds of the sagacious never soared into the
heavens of their meanings?
My pinions have been clipped by the shears of envy and rancor.
Should this broken bird find wings, He would fly into the sky of rhetoric
and exposition and warble on the twigs of the tree of knowledge a song
that would lift up the hearts of the sincere ones into the firmament of
longing and attraction. They would then witness the effulgences of their
Lord, the Mighty, the Bestower. At this time, however, I am forbidden to
uncover what was hidden, release what was repressed or speak openly of
what was concealed. We must withhold it rather than revealing it. Were
We to speak of what God hath taught Us by His grace, the people would
back away from Us and flee, save for those who have imbibed the elixir of
life from the chalice of the words of their Lord, the All­Merciful.
For, every word sent down from the heavens of revelation upon the
prophets and messengers hath been filled with the sacred waters of
figurative meaning, explanation, wisdom and exposition. Blessed are they
who drink thereof. Since We have perceived in thee the fragrance of love,
We shall reply to thee briefly and with concision. Thus mightest thou sever
thyself from those who interpret all scripture metaphorically, who have
opposed the truth and its mystery and cling instead to their own
conjectures and vain imaginings, even though aforetime it was revealed that
"Conjecture availeth nothing against the truth" and in another place
"Some conjecture is a sin."
Know that the sun mentioned in this blessed surah hath divers
meanings. At the level of primacy and unity, and in the city of pre­existent
divinity, it is one of God's mysteries, one of his sanctuaries, stored
away in
His treasure hold, concealed in His knowledge, and sealed by God's own
seal. No one is informed thereof save the One, the Unique, the
Omniscient.
For in this station the sun signifieth the Primal Will and the
illumination of
divine oneness that by means of its Self sheddeth its effulgence upon the
horizons. Whoever approached it was illumined thereby just as, when the
sun riseth, its rays encompass the world, all save those surfaces that remain
veiled from it by some obstacle. Consider the land unencumbered by trellis
or wall: it is irradiated by the sun, whereas walls cast a shadow that
prevents the earth from receiving this effulgence. In the same way, behold
the sun of reality. It sheddeth the light of meanings and explanation upon
beings. Whoso turneth toward it is rendered luminous by its rays, and such
a one's heart gloweth with its light. Whoso turneth away will never have
any portion therein, for the veil of self and passion hath intervened, and
such a one remaineth far from the emanations of the sun of reality that
flashed forth from the horizons of the heaven of heavens.
Then, in another station, it refereth to the prophets and pure
ones of
God, for they are the suns of His names and attributes amid his creation.
Were it not for them, no one would have been illumined by the mystical
knowledge of God. As you see, every nation on earth hath been
enlightened by one of these brightly shining suns. Whoso denieth them
remaineth deprived. For instance, those of God's servants who followed
the Christ were irradiated by the sun of his knowledge, until the
luminary of
the horizons dawned over the Hijaz. Those who denied him [Muhammad]
among the Christians and other communities were thereby deprived of that
sun and its rays. Their very repudiation of him became a wall that locked
out the light emanating from the horizon of the Cause of their Lord, the
Omnipotent, the Succorer.
On yet another level of reality, it refereth to the friends and lovers
of God, since they are the suns of authority among his creatures. Without
them, gloom would have encompassed the entire earth, save those thy Lord
willed to escape it. The word hath many other referents. Were ten scribes
to come into Our presence and take down Our utterances for a year, or
two years, they would in the end confess their inability to keep pace. Were
it not for the denials of some ignoramuses, We would have discoursed at
greater length, and the revered Pen of God would have gone beyond the
mention of limitations.
Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of
God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe
with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They
who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the
repositories of
its secrets are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold
wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to
choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the
authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead,
though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors,
and share with them their food and drink.
Oh, would that the world could believe Me! Were all the things
that lie enshrined within the heart of Baha, and which the Lord, His God,
the Lord of all names, hath taught Him, to be unveiled to mankind, every
man on earth would be dumbfounded.
How great the multitude of truths which the garment of words can
never contain! How vast the number of such verities as no expression can
adequately describe, whose significance can never be unfolded, and to
which not even the remotest allusion can be made! How manifold are the
truths which must remain unuttered until the appointed time is come! Even
as it hath been said: "Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed,
nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear
it."
Of these truths some can be disclosed only to the extent of the
capacity of the repositories of the light of Our knowledge, and the
recipients of Our hidden grace. We beseech God to strengthen thee with
His power, and enable thee to recognize Him Who is the Source of all
knowledge, that thou mayest detach thyself from all human learning, for
"what would it profit any man to strive after learning when he hath already
found and recognized Him Who is the object of all knowledge?" Cleave to
the Root of knowledge, and to Him Who is the Fountain thereof, that thou
mayest find thyself independent of all who claim to be well versed in human
learning, and whose claim no clear proof, nor the testimony of any
enlightening book, can support.
In another station, it refereth to the most beautiful names of God,
insofar as every one of His names constituteth a sun shining above the
horizon. Consider the name of God, "the knowing." It is a sun that
dawneth above the horizon of the will of thy Lord, the All­Merciful, its
rays bathing the bodies of all things in the known universe. Thou wilt find
every correct science among those persons of learning who have not given
in to their passions and base desires, who have acknowledged the path of
the divine decree and held fast to the firm handle of faith. Know that such
a one is in the right, and that his knowledge is a ray that emanated from the
light of this sun. We have, verily, interpreted the names and elucidated
their mysteries, effulgences, and coruscations, their externality and
internality, the secrets of their letters and the wisdom of their composition
in an epistle that We penned for one of Our friends who had inquired
concerning the names and what they contained.
Know that the Word of God, in the primal reality and the first
station, compriseth those meanings that most of the people have failed to
perceive. We bear witness that His words are complete, and in every one
of these words lie concealed meanings apprehended by no one but Himself,
and from Him is knowledge of the Book. No God is there but Him, the
Almighty, the Omnipotent, the Bestower.
Those who wrote commentaries on the Qur'an fell into two sorts.
The first neglected the literal sense in favor of an esoteric exegesis. The
other interpreted literally and ignored its metaphorical dimension. Were
We to review all their sayings and statements, thou wouldst be overtaken
with fatigue and unable to read what We have written for thee. Therefore,
We have declined to mention them here. Blessed are they that cling both
to the literal and to the esoteric, for those are His servants that have
believed in the universal Word.
Know that whoso clingeth to the outward sense of the words,
leaving aside their esoteric significance, is simply ignorant. And whoso
concentrateth on the metaphorical sense to the exclusion of the prosaic
meaning is heedless. Only the one who intepreteth the verses esoterically
while harmonizing this reading with the literal meaning can be said to be a
complete scholar. This maxim hath dawned from the horizon of
knowledge, so know thou its value and cherish its excellence. Verily, we
mention Our object allusively in our words and intimations. Blessed is the
one who graspeth Our intent and arriveth at the goal.
Say: O people, the nightingale warbleth upon the twigs, the royal
cockerel crieth out with wisdom and utterance, and the peacock spreadeth
its feathers in paradise. How long will ye sleep upon the couch of
heedlessness and transgression? Rise from the bed of selfish passion and
advance toward the dawning­place of the compassion of thy Lord, the
Sovereign of Eternity, the Revealer of Names. Beware lest ye oppose Him,
who calleth you to God and to His precepts. Fear ye God and be not of
the negligent.

To: Saman,<S0a7254@tam2000.tamu.edu>
Cc: Talisman,<talisman@indiana.edu>
Bcc:
From: Habib Riazati <76101.3361@compuserve.com>
Subject: Blessed ... Source
Date: Thursday, May 4, 1995 4:27:22 EZT
Attach:
Certify: N
Forwarded by:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Saman, Allah'u'abha
You may find the original Arabic in the Persian translation of the book
"Advent of Divine Justice " Page 171 lines 1 and 2 .
(* Published by Baha'i publishing trust of USA in 1985 with 189 pages *)

With warmest regards, Habib Riazati

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: bahai-discuss@bcca.org
Bcc:
From: Juan R Cole <jrcole@umich.edu>
Subject: collecting Baha'i materials
Date: Tuesday, May 30, 1995 19:23:07 EZT
Attach:
Certify: N
Forwarded by:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Especially for the Iranian friends on this Net:

I am interested in trading Persian and Arabic books and materials related
to Shaykhism and the Babi and Baha'i faiths. I am *especially*
interested in handwritten manuscripts--collections of Tablets, community
histories, biographies, autobiographies, memoirs, and so forth. But
there are also a fair number of books published by the Iranian
Publishing Trust that I have never managed to get hold of. I
have a nine-page list of such materials, mostly photocopies, that are in
my possession. I am willing to make one-for-one trades. If you yourself
do not have a good library but know someone who does, please pass my
message on. I fear those Iranian friends with the best Baha'i
libraries are the least likely to be on e-mail. I'd be glad to reward
persons who make such contacts with a photocopy of one or two books of
their choice. My land mail address is Juan Cole,
Department of History, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109.

Sorry to take up bandwidth with this request. But the history of the
Faith in Iran has barely begun to be written, and since the Islamic
Revolution in Iran Baha'i researchers are hampered by lack of access
to the rich Baha'i archives and manuscript repositories in that country
(which, indeed, are in danger of being destroyed by the Government; and
therefore the history of our Faith is in danger of being destroyed).
Only by spreading these materials around among scholars can their
survival be ensured. And only by publishing on the teachings and history
of our Faith in respected journals can we win recognition for it from
persons of capacity.

warmest Baha'i regards, Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: Ahang Rabbani <rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com>
Subject: RE: Prayer translation
Date: Sunday, May 14, 1995 19:03:31 EZT
Attach:
Certify: N
Forwarded by:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]

Dear Shastri:

The prayer that you provided is not the one chanted by the
believers at Fort Tabarsi as they greeted Quddus.

The prayer that they used to welcome Quddus is: "Subuhun
Quddusun, rabbana va rab-i mala'ikati-i va ruh" (Praiseworthy
and the Most Sacred is our Lord, the Lord of the angles and the
spirit.)

The prayer that you shared with us is a translation of: "Alahuma
ya subuhun ya quddus, ya rahmanun ya mannan. Faraj lana bil
fazil va'l-ihsan. Innaka rahmanun mannan."

Both of these prayers refer to Quddus.

lovingly, ahang.

In article: <01HQUZ1RUDLU000VKJ@RLMAT1.RULIMBURG.NL> Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl writes:
>
>
> I'm interested in the disks of texts - especially the one apart from the main
> texts available by FTP. However send me a full list because I know there are
> people here who are not on the net but would use electronic texts.
>
> I'm steadily annotating my texts. When that has gone a bit further - I meand
> in 5 years or so - it might be interesting to make these available on disk.
> But I am annotating them with footnotes etc in Word Perfect, so there may be
> a translation problem.
>
> Regards
>
> Sen

Whenever you are ready (g)

PLEASE READ INSTRUCTIONS _CAREFULLY_

Those in countries other than UK, USA and Canada please forgive this but we
are unable to accept other currencies because of the cost of cashing the
checks/cheques (Currently 7.50 pounds per cheque) unless more is given to
cover this cost. Sorry!

Sterling travellers cheques can be bought if you wish.

{I will ask the National Treasurer if they can accept credit card
donations.}

USA AND CANADIAN Checks accepted also. Suggested donation is 17 dollars US
or more (g) PLUS International Reply Coupons (available from your post
offices) enough to cover postage of the Disks back to you. PLUS five Disks.

If you have a UK bank account.
These can be supplied on five Zipped or ARJed 1.44mb disks for a suggested
donation of 10.00 Pounds or more.

Cheque/Check made payable to "National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is
of the UK."

Send the cheque/check, five formatted DSHD disks: and Stamped, Self
Addressed envelope to:-

Graham Sorenson.
185 Meadow Rise,
Llanharan,
Mid Glamorgan,
CF7 9TL
Wales, UK.

E-Mail to graham@fragrant.demon.co.uk

[ (for Those with a UK bank account only)
Or alternatively add a cheque for 5 UK Pounds, payable to G. Sorenson
and I will buy the disks and envelope and postage.]

"THE FILES"

Filename size discription

ABL FN 142,656 'Abdu'l-Baha in London
AGENDA21 TXT 32,895 BIC short version of Agenda 21
AHW TXT 17,452 Arabic Hidden Words
AQDAS TXT 434,223 Kitab-i-Aqdas
ASMA TXT 49,720 Part of Selected Writings of the Bab
BAHAI EDU 169,904 Compilation of Baha'i education
BAHA NEW 583,320 Baha'u'llah and the New Era
BAHA TXT 4,303
BAHAI TXT 3,735 An Introduction
BAHAI ADM 455,343 Baha'i Administration
BAHAINTR TXT 15,122 Another Introduction
BAHAIQUE TXT 3,294 Summary of persecutions of Baha'is in Iran
BAHAULAH TXT 105,763 Short Introduction to Baha'u'llah
BAHBUD TXT 8,825 Baha'i and Buddism
BALKANS TXT 2,244 Prayer for the Balkans
BELIEF TXT 9,481 Thread From the Internet
BHAGAVAD TXT The Bhagavad Gita.
BIC92 TXT 4,077 Statement of BIC to UN Conference on
Envirionment and development
BISHARAT TXT 13,066 Tablet of Bisharat
BOOKHOPI TXT 23,681 Hopi Prophecies
BWF 542,338 Baha'i World Faith, 'Abdu'l-Baha's section
CAMPLIST TXT 9,230 List of files on Camphor Fountain
CARMEL TXT 4,644 Tablet of Carmel
CIT FAI 404,790 Citidels of Faith
DAWN NEW 453,234 Dawn of a New Day
DB-ENG DOS 1,680,817 Dawnbreakers
DB-FNS DOS 205,145 Dawnbreakers footnotes translated from
the French
DELAHUNT TXT 12,547 Jaci Delahunt article N American Indian
DG TXT Directives from the Guardian.
DUSK GIF Picture.
ESW 273,137 Epistle to the Son of the Wolf
FIRE! TXT 7,321 Fire Tablet
FOOD! TXT 3,242 Some Writings on food and vegetarian diet
FWU FN 278,893 Foundations of World Unity
GOD TXT 3,699 Some Writings on God
GOD PAS 1,090,940 God Passes By
GWB 511,088 Gleanings
HEALING1 TXT 8,621 Long Healing Prayer
HOPI TXT 40,732 Lee Brown on Hopi
HWPROPHY TXT 4,321 Prophecy on Hidden Words
JINN TXT 4,583 About Jinn in Quran (Genies)
KITABAHD TXT 8,077 Kitab-i-Ahd (Book of the Covenant)
KITAIQAN TXT 315,267 Kitab-i-Iqan (Book of Certitude)
LAWHIAQD TXT 16,237 Lawh-i-Aqdas (Most Holy Tablet)
LDG1 FN Light of Divine Guidance vol1
LDG2 FN " " " vol2
MARINER TXT 8,406 Tablet of the Holy Mariner
MEMORIZE TXT 8,168 Importance of memorising Writings
MF FN 348,192 Memorials of the Faithful
NATURE TXT 6,146 Baha'i Formal Statement on Nature
NAWRUZ GIF Picture.
NEWNAME TXT 8,102 Bible on "New Name"
PARADISE TXT 41,209 Kalimat-i-Firdawsiyyih(Words of Paradise)
PB 123,212 Proclamation of Baha'u'llah
PEACE 127,290 Compilation on Peace
PHW TXT 32,209 Persian Hidden Words
POVERTY TXT 4,886 Some Writings on Poverty
PRAYKIDS TXT 23,441 Some Prayers for unborn, Infants, etc
PRAYMEDI TXT 463,741 Prayers and Meditations
PRAYWOMN TXT 18,281 Prayers revealed by Baha'u'llah for Women
PROM DAY 322,222 The Promised Day is Come
PROOFS TXT 20,034 Notes on Bible Baha'i Proofs
PROPHECY TXT 10,112 Talk on Prophecy
PT FN 258,766 Paris Talks
PURITY TXT 8,974 Tablet of Purity
SAQ FN 494,599 Some Answered Questions
SDC FN 179,447 The Secret of Divine Civilization
SPTRUTH DOC 187,920 Lecture notes Spirit of Truth
SUFFER TXT 10,019 Role and Purpose of Suffering
SVFV FN 77,118 Seven Valleys and Four Valleys
SWB FN 323,984 Selections from the Writings of the Bab
TABAHMAD TXT 5,097 Tablet of Ahmad
TAB ABD 1,181,276 Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Bahai Abbas
TAF FN 31,207 Tablet to August Forel
TAJALLI TXT 13,045 Effulgences
TARAZAT TXT 21,230 Ornaments
TB FN 394,559 Tablets of Baha'u'llah Revealed after the
Kitab-i-Aqdas
TDP FN 119,927 Tablet of the Divine Plan
TESTS TXT 5,053 Prayers for Times of Tests
TN FN 192,563 A Travelers Narrative
TRUESEEK TXT 9,840 Tablet of the True Seeker
UD FN Unfolding Destiny
UNITY TXT 9,485 Building a Unified World Community
WISDOM TXT 4,194 Words of Wisdom
WORLD ORD 468,431 World Order of Baha'u'llah
WORLDPAX TXT 47,712 Peace Message
WT 53,608 Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha

NEW!!!

1844.TXT Interesting message Originaly posted to alt.religion.islam
ARO.TXT Letters from Shoghi Effendi to New Zealand
BAHAI.ADM Bahai Administration, letters from The Guardian 1922-1932
BAHAI.EDU Compilation on Education 1976
BK.TXT Bahiyyah Khanum
BREAKERS.TXT File about Covenant Breakers from Mojan Momen
BUWBKLT.TXT Baha'i Youth Workshop Booklet
DEVELOP.TXT Towards a Developement Paradigm for the 21st Century (BIC)
GLOBESTR.TXT A Global Strategy & Action-Plan for Soc Dev.(BIC)
GRNAME.GIF A picture of the Greatest Name
HE.FN High Endeavour, Messages to Alaska
HOLMES.TXT Prize Winning Script of a play from Ben Roskams
INDRIGHT.TXT Individual rights and freedoms, Statement from UHJ
JWTA.TXT Japan Will Turn Ablaze
LGANZ Letters from the Guardian to Australia and New Zealand
MA.TXT Messages to America
MBW.FN Messages to the Baha'i World 1950 - 1057
MC.FN Messages to Canada
PIC56.JPG Jpeg Picture
PIC562.JPG jpeg picture
PROSPER TXT UHJ JAN 25 1995 Prosperity of Mankind
QURAN.TXT The Quran
ROLEEDUC.TXT Role of Education, Media, & Arts in Soc Dev (BIC)
ROLERELI.TXT Role of Religion in Soc Dev (BIC)
RUHE.TXT Dr Ruhe, Talk Orlando Dec 1988
RIDVAN.145 M
RIDVAN.146 E R
RIDVAN.147 S F I
RIDVAN.148 S R U A D
RIDVAN.149 A O H T V
RIDVAN.150 G M J A
RIDVAN.151 E N
RIDVAN.152 S
SCHOLAR.TXT Statement on Scholarship 1995
STATMEN.BAH BIC Statement on Baha'u'llah
TAB.ABD Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Baha Abbas 1908
WOMEN Compilation on Women, from Research Dept UHJ

'Additional Programme,' Lookfor.com is a programm which will search all
text files in a directory and up to five subdirectories for occurences of
words or phrases. (just what we want to look for quotes....)

Any text files that you have that are not on this list please send them to
me so that all can benefit from there availability.

Thanks

Graham

>
>
>
>
--
Graham Sorenson Guide to Aromatherapy URL
http://www.dircon.co.uk/home/philrees/fragrant/index.html

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: "Eric D. Pierce" <PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.edu>
Subject: Re: From the List Owner (brief? biography)
Date: Wednesday, May 31, 1995 22:13:08 EZT
Attach:
Certify: N
Forwarded by:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Netizens,

I recently started exploring the Internet resources related to the
Faith. First I got on the Usenet soc.religion.bahai group, then I
was informed of talisman and the various BCCA email list server
groups.

What a relief that there is a public forum that has such depth of
discussion that it gets scary at times!

I have been a member of the community for about 23 years, and
declared as a result of a tangent to the mass teaching activities in
the south. I spent some time in the group of youth in the Virginia
suburbs of D.C., especially at the homes of the Huddlestons and
Stanwood Cobb. I grew up as a military brat, and was blessed with
exposure to cultures and religions in Asia and Europe as a child.
I came back to California in the mid-70's and entered a period of non-
participation in the community. I needed to examine my confused
feelings about the Faith. I more or less decided to recommit after a
few years. I guess it helped a bit to grow up!

I consider myself a somewhat reluctant non-scholarly dissident in
the community. Having been brainwashed by what I now label "Baha'i
Mythology" as a youth, I generally take a antiestablishmentarian
stance on goings on in the community. I have experienced a great
deal of social and administrative corruption in various locales,
and am extremely skeptical about the feasibility of reforms "within
the system" given the ingrained widespread imposition of various
types of personal and group agendas on the social and administrative
fabric that I feel are incompatible with the teachings.

I first got a taste of the possibility of overcoming the sense of
a prevalent exclusionary and dysfunctional attitude that I experienced
for years in various communities when the workshops on dealing with
racism started at Bosch. Wow, people were actually trying to apply the
teachings to initiate a process of evolutionary group change! The all
to brief Dialog Magazine era also raised some hope for the beginning of
an open public process of consultation and the resolution of the tension
between the progressive and conservative elements of the community.

I personally feel most uncomfortable with "traditionalist" or
"conservative" agendas that derive from pre-Baha'i religious and/or
cultural backgrounds, but will readily admit that there are plenty
of corrupt "left-wing/counterculture..." agendas floating around too.

(yes I saw the "don't use labels" message, I'll stop using them
when non-mainstream elements of the community are no longer
being marginalized.)

My main interest is in emotional/mystical expressions of the experience
of an inspired, prayerful and reflective life, but I have a great deal
of respect for the deep, open and frank discussions of all of the
scholarly experts out there. ;^)

I greatly appreciate the work done on this list to encourage the
scholarly path as a way out of the widespread ignorance, misdirection
and corruption that I see in the community. Thanks for being the
kind of "virtual community" that I've always wanted!

Before closing, my pet peeve about email discussions: taking little
snippets of another person's message out of context and twisting them
to another meaning (or making thinly veiled insults) without even
addressing the larger issue in the original message.

Lurk mode on, and thanks for the opportunity to: blah, blah, blah...

Eric D. Pierce
Database/Network Technician (and recently certified Diapering Expert)
Student Services
California State University, Sacramento

preferred email (work): PierceED@csus.edu

(PS, does anyone have a private archive of talisman messages that they
would be interested in sharing?, TIA)

> Date sent: Wed, 31 May 95 09:46:03 EWT
> From: JWALBRID@ucs.indiana.edu
> Originally to: PO%"talisman"
> Subject: From the List Owner
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
>
...snip
> 11. A custom has developed on this list--based, it seems, on Maori
> etiquette--that new participants should introduce themselves at some
> point with a brief biography.
>
>

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: Juan R Cole <jrcole@umich.edu>
Subject: labelling
Date: Saturday, May 27, 1995 20:30:14 EZT
Attach:
Certify: N
Forwarded by:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have come back from vacation to find a number of interesting threads
on Talisman, from David Langness's (and others') comments on US Baha'i
conventions, to ether and physicists, to a rather desultory and dreary
continuation of the `science & religion' debate.

Mark Foster in particular feels aggrieved that his position has been
characterized as "fundamentalist", and I feel sorry about his obvious
discomfort.

I don't think "fundamentalist" a very useful word. It is applied to
Khomeinism, a Shi`ite movement that believes Muslim clergy should rule
via scholastic reasoning; and to lay movements in Algeria that are
radical and non-clerical; and to Jerry Falwell's followers. It does not
seem to have core content except maybe "religious revivalism."

But in the discussion of religion and science, epistemological (how we
know what we know) issues are in play. Many Baha'is hierarchize
propositions about the world so that propositions drawn from an
acontextual reading of translations of Writings of Baha'u'llah and
`Abdu'l-Baha have evidentiary primacy in the domains of science and
history. John Walbridge, Tony, Safa, David and I among others have put
forth an alternative position, which is that propositions derived from
scientific and historical procedures of knowing have epistemological
primacy over propositions derived from scripture *in the domains of
science and history.*

Mark Foster a couple of weeks ago characterized the second group as
"modernists" and appeared to suggest that they had abandoned *the* Baha'i
paradigm. I disagreed with both characterizations.

I have attempted to show that the second approach, of ceding science and
history primacy in their own domains, has an honorable lineage in Baha'i
studies: Mirza Abu'l-Fadl advocated it, basing himself on Averroes;
`Abdu'l-Baha very explicitly said over and over again that religion is
mere superstition where it disagrees with science; the beloved Guardian,
as the House noted, accepted the possibility that an eyewitness account
of an event in Yazd was superior to one given in a Tablet by the Master.

John Walbridge has pointed out that position #1 above, which always
grants epistemological primacy to propositions drawn from scripture,
produces so many anomalies that it would have to be abandoned if pursued
in a thoroughgoing manner throughout the entire scriptural corpus. Those
who doubt John's conclusion should do so cautiously; it would help if
they had read as many of the Tablets as he had, in the original, and had
his knowledge of their cultural and historical context.

This issue is important, because it is important whether the intellectual
tone of the Baha'i faith is open to science and history or whether it is
tied tightly to a literalist set of scripturally derived proposition. It
pains me that the intellectual agenda of many Baha'is seems to be to
fight a rear-guard action against, the Michaelson-Morley experiment,
evolutionary theory, and modern historiographical findings about ancient
Greece. What to call this set of positions seems to me the least of our
problems.

cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan

Back to my poorly timed postings on the question of science and religion, and
the inerrancy of the Sacred Texts. Sorry.
I am surprised by the various postings on Talisman which seem to assume
the inerrancy of the literal and obvious meaning of the Baha'i Writings.
Such view seem to insist that all scientific discovery and historical
inquiry must be subordinated to the Texts of the Baha'i scriptures as we read
them in our contextless American living rooms.
Of course, I disagree strongly with this view. But, beyond that, I do not
think that this has been the traditional Baha'i approach to our Scriptures.
Mirza Abu'l-Fadl rejected this approach a hundred years ago, and both
'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi have warned against it. Yet, it seems to be
the dominant mode of approach to the Writings, at least in the American
Baha'i community. In my view, this is because most Baha'is here are from
fairly conservative and popular Christian backgrounds and, coming into the
Faith, they have naturally transferred the attitudes that fundamentalist
Christians hold toward the Bible to the Baha'i Writings--regarding them in
the same way.
I feel this is a very serious error. As we can see on Talisman, such an
approach quickly leads to statements and assumptions that are anti-scientific
in content and purpose, and are really quite absurd. It means that we are
obliged to reject the obvious and repeatedly demonstrated results of
scientific research (as in insisting on the existence of ether, based on a
statement of 'Abdu'l-Baha) and make nonsense out of historical inquiry (a la
Socrates and the Jewish prophets). It also renders religion impervious to
reason, since no amount of data marshalled against a statement from scripture
will ever get the believer to reject the literal meaning of the text. At
that point religion (as attested by 'Abdu'l-Baha--and, yes, that includes the
Baha'i Faith) becomes superstition.
Anyway, my point is that such an approach to the Baha'i Writings is
without precident in Baha'i history. The greatest Baha'i scholars have
rejected such an attitude--as have the interpreters of the Text. Abu'l-Fadl
states categorically:

. . . Therefore, given this situation, it is impermissible for the
scholarly investigator to depend on the verses of the Qur'an and the
traditions of the Prophet in historical questions.
It is clear that the prophets and Manifestations of the Cause of God were
sent to guide the nations, to improve their characters, and to bring the
people nearer to their Source and ultimate Goal. They were not sent as
hitorians, astronomers, philosophers, or natural scientists. . . .
Therefore, the prophets have indulged the people in regard to their
historical notions, folk stories, and scientific principles, and have spoken
to them according to these. They conversed as was appropriate to their
audience and hid certain realities behind the curtain of allusion.
. . . Finally, it is well known that neither the Prophet Muhammad nor the
rest of the prophets ever engaged in disputes with the people about their
historical beliefs, but addressed them according to their local traditions.
(From Miracles and Metaphors, pp. 9-14)

So, Abu'l-Fadl was quite clear and direct on the matter a hundred years
ago. Likewise, 'Abdu'l-Baha has repeatedly affirmed that when religion
disagrees with science it is superstition. Yes, I suppose that we could
render such categoric and repeated statements by the Master a dead letter by
simply changing the defintion of science or pretending that we don't know
"which" science he was talking about. I think, however, that is a tremendous
disservice to a profound principle of our Faith.
Whatever the dangers of rejecting scripture when it turns out to be
scientifically or historically wrong--Whatever the danger of admitting that
'Abdu'l-Baha was simply confused about a particular Islamic tradition, for
example--those dangers pale to insignificance in the face of the dangers
posed by demanding a literal reading of scripture and insisting that all
science and history must conform to it. The latter position would simply
bring science to a halt, as it has it the past. It would have a similar
effect on historical reseach.
And that is why Shoghi Effendi, when faced with precisely this question of
a Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Baha contradicting the history of events in Yazd which
was known to be true from eyewitness accounts--when faced with this question
the Guardian instructed the Baha'is to unhesitatingly record the correct
accounts in their local histories (and not the bring the local histories in
conformity to the Tablet of the Master). A monumental victory for reason and
truth! Yes, we can contradict the Text on the basis of historical evidence.
The beloved Guardian said so.
I only wish that were the ethos and approach of the majority of the Baha'i
community. It isn't. We seem stuck in a conservative Christian mode and
haven't even caught up to Abu'l-Fadl yet. Too bad.

Warmest,
Tony

To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: Member1700@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fundamentalism, etc.
Date: Tuesday, May 30, 1995 7:18:21 EZT
Attach:
Certify: N
Forwarded by:

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Dearest Mark:
I am afraid that I, too, fail to see the relevance of the quotations from
the House of Justice that you have shared with us to our present discussion.
I wonder what your correspondence with the House of Justice was that would
elicit such a response. I see all parties in this discussion seeking to
engage the opinions of others--not to label them and dismiss them. I think
that your statements and opinions have been taken seriously in this forum,
and have been discussed. If they have been rejected and dismissed by some,
it was on their merits and not due to any labels attached to them--either by
me or anyone else.
No one has attempted to divide the Baha'i community or the community on
Talisman. You are just as free to express your views as you ever have been.
And I am just as free to disagree with them and reject them. That is the
essense of intellectual exhange, not the end of it. I wish that the rest of
the Baha'i community were committed to similar values.
As to the term "fundamentalist," I find it much more useful than Juan
seems to. I think that it is a respectable scholarly term, and I cannot
understand why you would be so offended by it. There are lots of
fundamentalist in the world--some of them are Baha'is. That does not make
them evil. The term does not make them evil. I disagree with that approach
to religion, but you are certainly free to embrace it if you wish.
The term is not just a label, but a descriptive term which refers to
certain assumptions about the inerrancy of scripture, the primacy of religion
over science, the rejection of modernism, etc. Insofar as one's positions
fall into that category, they are fundamentalist within the terms of
recognized scholarly discourse. We recognize the term as useful in
describing some Christians and Muslims, it has been used with value in the
study of Hinduism and Judaism. Why should the Baha'i Faith be exempt from
such an analysis? Isn't that just special pleading?
Of course, if I misunderstand your views, I will be very happy to be
corrected. That is why Terry's remarks gave me such hope. And I will accept
his statement that your views do not resemble the fundamentalist stance found
in other religions. But, if you are just objecting that you don't like the
term, because it it pejorative or something, let me assure you that I don't
regard it as pejorative, but as descriptive. I used it as a descriptive and
a comparative term--and nothing more. (Haven't we discussed this before?)

Warmest,
Tony

To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: Member1700@aol.com
Subject: Re: Eighteenth-century issues
Date: Tuesday, May 30, 1995 7:18:24 EZT
Attach:
Certify: N
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Dear Stephen:
I am sorry that I have taken so long to respond to your kind remarks. I
have been having trouble (again) getting my e-mail to work and so my remarks
always seem out of sync with our discussions. Sorry.
I do not think that you were particularly hard on me in your recent post,
and I am certainly not offended by anything you said. I am very happy to
accept criticism, and I appreciate your frankness. I am, however, distressed
that you seem to have completely misunderstood some parts of my posting, and
to have attributed to them a meaning opposite to what I intended.
In the context of our discussion on science and religion, ether, and
Socrates and the Hebrew prophets, I do not think that the objections which I
raised to some views were particularly vague. But if you want specifics
about what I mean by eighteenth-century issues suddenly brought to life on
Talisman, the long-discarded propositions have to do with:
1. The assertion of the primacy of scriptural statements about science
and history over the results of scholarly inquiry and evidence--such as
dismissing all of the evidence that mades it ridiculous to think that
Socrates studied with the Jewish prophets with a wave of the hand and a
reference to a line from `Abdu'l-Baha;
2. The assumed inerrancy of scripture with regard to scientific fact and
historical fact;
3. The assumption that God and all matters spiritual can be studied in a
"scientific" manner, like any of the physical and natural sciences--if only
we use the right "tools";
4. The assumption that one can prove the existence of God by rational
argument;
and so forth. These are indeed issues that were hot in the eighteenth
century, and the history of that intellectual debate should be well known.
I certainly have no intention of returning to the eighteenth century or
freezing the development of human thought in a pre-modern mode. My point was
to reject such a stance, which would certainly result from accepting the
above principles and assumptions.
The argument for the existence of God as First Cause simply has no
rational or intellectual usefulness. It was laid to rest two hundred years
ago, for reasons which have been clearly discussed by others on Talisman--the
argument is circular and contradictory. After asserting that every effect
must have a cause, it then postulates an uncaused effect (God). If God can
be a first Cause, then the physical universe can be a first cause too, and so
the proof fails. That is not to say that the argument may not have some
poetic or spiritual value for meditation. But, it most certainly has no
scientific value. This is not my personal opinion! It has been the opinion
of the thinking world for centuries.
Anyway, my point is not that we would not be allowed to argue, discuss or
debate. Quite the opposite. I am arguing that a quotation from scripture
cannot bring an end to that debate--especially in areas of science and
history. I was specifically arguing against the establishment of a Baha'i
orthodoxy.
Such a position does not and cannot establish a new orthodoxy, simply
because modern science will not offer up an orthodoxy. Science and history
are in a constant state of flux and debate. As you say, science is not
dogmatic--and I am fully comfortable with this. I don't think that the
Baha'i Faith is dogmatic either.
When I say that the Baha'i Writings give us no brief whatever to
challenge the results of scientific inquiry--I mean to REJECT the results of
that inquiry just because they contradict something that we read literally
from the Writings. I most emphatically do not believe that once someone has
conducted a survey of Baha'i scripture we are obliged to accept his
conclusions without discussion or debate. Where did you get that idea? I am
arguing precisely the opposite. That debate cannot be brought to a halt
based on scriptural quotations.

Anyway, enough for one posting.

Warmest, Tony

To: TALISMAN@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: quinn@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu
Subject: Genealogies
Date: Tuesday, May 9, 1995 23:55:37 EZT
Attach:
Certify: N
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ohio University Electronic Communication

Date: 09-May-1995 05:46pm EST

To: Remote Addressee ( _MX%"talisman@indiana.edu" )

From: Sholeh Quinn Dept: History
QUINN Tel No:

Subject: Genealogies

Dear Talisman friends,

Our system was down for a while this afternoon so I may have missed some
messages on this topic. The Safavid ruling dynasty in Iran (ca. 16th-18th
centuries) went through great trouble to hide their family origins; comparing
versions of their official family tree shows that they later "extended" their
genealogy back several generations to indicate descent from the 7th Imam, Musa
al-Kazim. Official Mongol genealogies (Ilkhanid and Timurid--medieval Iran),
even those supposedly compiled by the same person (Rashid al-Din) have lots of
discrepancies as well. I think, at least in these two particular cases, they
should be used with caution; they tell us more about legitimizing forces than
actual descent.
Best wishes,
Sholeh

Received: 09-May-1995 05:48pm

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: Ahang Rabbani <rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com>
Subject: The genealogy of Baha'u'llah
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 1995 6:28:53 EZT
Attach:
Certify: N
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[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]

Friends,

While we await Juan's learned posting on this topic, allow me to
share a bit of "trivia":

1. I've been told by a reliable eyewitness that a fine Persian rug
was discovered some years ago (the type that is hang on the wall,
not the type that goes on the floor), apparently commissioned by
Mirza Buzurg-i Nuri (Baha'u'llah's father), which has a complete
and detailed genealogy tracing the family back to Yazd-Kird III,
the last Sasaniad king, without a break.

2. Presumably, the same information is captured by Malik-Khusravi
in his much expanded, unpublished, revised "Iqlim-i Nur".

much love, ahang.


ps. In two weeks time, Drs. Iraj Ayman, Nader Saeidi and myself
will be making a series of presentations in Toronto on peace and
the future of the Faith. After this conf, I'll post my 3
presentations which should address Chris Buck's earlier query on
more data on distinction between the 3 peace terms in Baha'u'llah's
Writings.


Deepest condolences to the Banani family. Mrs. Samieh Banani was a
most remarkable person; the Baha'i community has suffered a great
loss. May Baha'u'llah's Grace continue to surround her in all the
worlds beyond.

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: "Stockman, Robert" <rstockman@usbnc.org>
Subject: Genealogies of the prophets
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 1995 9:42:24 EZT
Attach:
Certify: N
Forwarded by:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A quick note on the question of genealogy of the prophets. I do not
think we should take references to Manifestations of God coming from a
common genetic descent too seriously as *historical* statements;
rather, they are theological statements that stress the common source
of the teachings via genealogy. There are two ways to tackle the
question of Baha'u'llah's genealogy, to take a specific example.

1. Historical reliability of a genealogy. Abraham lived
approximately 3800 years ago; He is believed to have lived between
2000 and 1800 B.C.E. (Before the Common Era; the same thing as B.C.,
"Before Christ"). Assuming three generations per century, that's 114
genrations ago. What are the chances of a genealogy being preserved
accurately and completely for 114 generations, especially considering
the Middle East was largely illiterate until two or three generations
ago, and that for at least half that time there were no censuses,
birth records, and other reliable government statistics? Virtually
non-existent. This alone suggests that the genealogy of Baha'u'llah
should be seen as symbolic, not as literal.

2. One has two parents, four grandparents, eight great grand parents,
etc. The number of ancestors doubles each generation. Thus:

# generations ago # ancestors
1 2
2 4
3 8
4 16
10 1024 (c. 300 years ago)
20 1,000,000 (c. 600 years ago)
30 1,000,000,000 (c. 1000 years ago)
60 1 times 10 to the 18th power
100 1.26 x 10 30th power
114 2.08 x 10 34th power

Note that 600 years ago the number of ancestors one has exceeds the
number of humans on the earth (which reached 1 billion in the mid
nineteenth century). 3800 years ago one had 10 million billion
billion billion ancestors, which is 10 million billion billion times
as many humans as lived; or another way of looking at it, every person
on earth was your ancestor by 10 million billion billion billion
different ways (assuming equal distribution of genes, which is not
likely; so some humans were ancestors more than others).

Conclusion: Baha'u'llah was descended from Abraham, just like every
other person in Eurasia! Considering the 1800 year gap between Jesus
and Abraham, we can be sure Jesus was descended from Abraham as well.
We can also be equally sure Muhammad had an infinitesimally small drop
of Abraham's bllod in his veins as well, just like every other Arab of
His day.

Hence, clearly, the main point of these genealogies is spiritual; the
genetic truth rapidly degenerates to trivality.

-- Rob Stockman
5/8/95

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: Juan R Cole <jrcole@umich.edu>
Subject: Baha'u'llah's genealogy
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 1995 17:53:33 EZT
Attach:
Certify: N
Forwarded by:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no doubt that Baha'u'llah was descended from Yazdigird III. I
also have no doubt that everyone else in Mazandaran was, too. Genealogy
is a sleight of hand, because it focuses in on only one line of descent.
You have 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, 16 great-great-grandparents;
by the time one traced Baha'u'llah's family back to the Sasanians, as Rob
showed, he had millions of ancestors, one of which of Yazdigird III. The
likelihood is that all child-bearing persons alive in Sasanian times in
Eurasia contributed something to his genetic inheritance.

I think it is very important that Baha'u'llah was aware of his ancestry
in the royal family of Zoroastrian, pre-Islamic Iran. I think this is
part of what led him to stress the truth of Zoroastrianism as a religion;
and once you did that, it was such a different discourse from the biblical-
qur'anic stream, that there was no real difficulty about accepting the South
Asian avatars, as well (as Baha'u'llah implicitly does in his letter to
Manakji via Mirza Abu'l-Fadl). As John Walbridge notes, the provincial
service families (dabirs) of Qajar Iran took a special interest in the
Iranian, Zoroastrian heritage. This cultural tradition also has
implications for Baha'u'llah's recognition of a separation of religion
and state, since Iranian monarchy since ancient times had its own,
independent divine sanction (the hero's halo, khvarena or farr-i izadi,
which Corbin thought the underlying idea in the Islamic school of Ishraq
or illumination). Indeed, Mirza Abu'l-Fadl thought that the author of
the "Mirrors for Princes" work, Qabusnameh, was written by and ancester or
Baha'u'llah.

In his commentary on Baha'u'llah's family tree, Mirza Abu'l-Fadl says that
the Nuri family of Takur was descended from the Sasanian monarchs, whose
descendants after the Islamic conquest of the 7th century settled as
provinical rulers in Mazandaran (Tabaristan). After about 400 years,
Mirza Abu'l-Fadl says, Zaydi Shi`ite rulers established themselves in
Daylam, and the conversion of Mazandaranis to Islam accelerated. After
the Safavid conquest these local families were displaced, and the
populace accepted Twelver Shi`ite Islam (1500s). He establishes that a
number of Nuri families claimed Sasanian descent in 19th-century Iran.
Baha'u'llah in his Lawh-i Shir-Mard confirmed Mirza Abu'l-Fadl's findings.

In recent historical times, Malik Khusravi tells us that
Baha'u'llah's great-grandfather (who was likely born around 1700) was
Karbala'i `Abbas Khan. We are not told anything about him; but his name
indicates that he was a notable ("Khan") and that he was a pious Shi`ite
who went on pilgrimage at some point to the shrine of Imam Husayn at
Karbala in Iraq.

He had two sons, Fath-`Ali and Rida Quli Beg. Rida Quli Beg Takuri was
Mirza Buzurg's father. He had 5 wives altogether, and 17 children. I
was very interested that one of his wives was from an Isma`ili family of
Takur, and another of his wives was from a Sufi darvish family of Takur.
While one cannot draw firm conclusions from such information, that
Baha'u'llah had Sufi and Isma`ili co-grandmothers strikes me as suggestive.

More anon.

cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan

P.S. Many thanks to John Walbridge and Ahang Rabbani for sharing with me
the materials upon which these inadequate observations are based.

To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
Subject: Sen's Genius
Date: Friday, May 26, 1995 21:27:06 EZT
Attach:
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Dear Talismanic/depressives,

Okay, I nominate Sen's "spinning technicolor coats out of dhikr and bull's
wool" as Talisman phrase of the month. Sen, your post struck me as pure
genius -- thank you.

Love,

David

To: talisman@indiana.edu,<talisman@indiana.edu>
Cc:
Bcc:
From: Dariush Lamie <0007368608@mcimail.com>
Subject: Ref. Sura-i-Ghusn
Date: Saturday, May 6, 1995 4:27:59 EZT
Attach:
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-- [ From: Dariush Lamie * EMC.Ver #2.3 ] --

Dear Payam,

You have requested in your posting about the "Sura-i-Ghusn". I would like to
share a few points with you very humbly and very briefly about this very
important tablet of Baha'u'llah.

"Sura-i-Ghusn" is one of the tablets of Baha'u'llah which was revealed in
Adrianopple (Aderneh) addressed to "Mirza Ali Reza, Mustufi Sabzevari" (who has
received from Baha'u'llah several other tablets as well). Mirza Ali Reza, along
with his brother was one of the representatives of the government of "Naseredin
Sha" in the province of Khurasan. Mirza Ali Reza, and his brother recognized
the station of the Bab and then Baha'u'llah through "Bab-al-bab" in Khurasan.

Mirza Ali Reza, entitled "Mu'e Tamen Al Saltaneh", looked liked a lot to
Baha'u'llah and Baha'u'llah Himself refers to this similarity in His tablet,
saying "Ya man tashbah be Haycali" (in essence,Oh who look like me).

Basically, Baha'u'llah in "Sura-i-Ghus", talks about the High Station of
Abdul'baha. You can find this tablet in "Athar-i-Khalami-Ala" Vol.4, and also
in the book "Hayati-i-Hazrate Abdul'baha" By: A.M. Faizi page 58-59 publication
of Germany.

The famous "Hagi Mirza Haydar Ali", has asked Abdul'baha to comment on this
tablet and Abdul'baha has revealed a tablet addressed to Haydar Ali explaining
the "Surai-i-Ghusn". You also can find this tablet in the same book of Mr.
M.A.Faizi page 60.

With Baha'i Greetings,
Dariush

To: talisman@ucs.indiana.edu
Cc: vijay@rcvr30.es.hac.com
Bcc:
From: Wendi and Moojan Momen <momen@northill.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: MAKING UP
Date: Saturday, May 13, 1995 18:23:48 EZT
Attach:
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In article: <9505121748.AA18870@rcvr30.es.hac.com> vijay@rcvr30.es.hac.com writes:
>
> Last night I went to Muslim Temple, Mosque , and while I was
> there , I shared the fact that, I am looking and enjoying looking
> into the Baha'i religion; having said that, one of the Iranian
> friends, said that the Bahai people have MADE UP some traditions
> about Islam, indicating that , there shall come a day where the
> Moslem Temple becomes the CENTER for ERROR rather than CENTER to
> GUIDE.
>
> Vijay Kutrapa
>

This is not something that Baha'is have made up. There are many Traditions in both Sunni
and Shi`i collections of Traditions which point to a decline in the religion of Islam
and a deterioration in the spiritual health of Muslims. The numerous Sunni and Shi`i
traditions that state that the Mahdi will fill the earth with justice after it has been
filled with injustice attest to the general conditions and the lack of Islamic
standards that will prevail at the time of the coming of the Mahdi. I do not have time
to compile for you a complete list of other Traditions but the following will suffice
for now:

a. Sunni

Anas reported God's messenger (i.e. Muhammad) as saying: "The last hour will not
come till the cry `God, God' is not uttered in the earth." Tradition transmitted by
Abu Muslim; Mishkat al-Masabih, p. 1163.

The following was narrated by 'Abdullah and Abu Musa: `The Prophet said, "Near the
establishment of the Hour there will be days during which Religious ignorance will
spread, knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and there will be much Al-Harj, and
Al-Harj means killing." Al- Bukhari 9:184

b. Shi`i

The Apostle of God (Muhammad) said: `There will come a time for my people when there
will remain nothing of the Qur'an except its outward form and nothing of Islam
except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the
people furthest from it. Their mosques will be full of people but they will be empty
of right guidance. The religious leaders (fuqaha) of that day will be the most evil
religious leaders under the heavens; sedition and dissension will go out from them
and to them will it return'.
Ibn Babuya, Thawab al-A`mal, quoted in Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar (old lithograph edition,
1301, vol. 13, p. 152).

Since your friend in the Mosque was Iranian, it is almost certainly this last tradition that he is referring to.

--
Wendi and Moojan Momen
momen@northill.demon.co.uk
Fax: (44) 1767 627626

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: "Stockman, Robert" <rstockman@usbnc.org>
Subject: Greek Philosophers
Date: Tuesday, May 16, 1995 2:19:00 EZT
Attach:
Certify: N
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously, one cannot rule out any contact between Greece and Israel.
Archaeologists have long noted that Greek pottery became a major
import item into Palestine quite early; I think 800 or 700 B.C.E. As
John notes, Ionia was a Persian province. Asia Minor much later (1-2d
century BCE) became a major place of settlement of Jews, and is
possible the diaspora settlement started there under the Persians much
earlier.

The other question scholars haven't begun to get a handle on is the
influence of Judaism on "popular" culture or even on high culture at
various times in Mediteranean history. For example, we know that by
about the time of Christ the idea of a Sabbath had been adopted in the
Roman Empire; you work six days and rest one. One must ask the
question, how widespread was knowledge in the polytheistic
Mediterranean that the Jews were monotheistic? What subtle influence
did this exert? The idea that very general monotheistic ideas from
Judaism might have exerted an influence on Greek philosophy cannot be
discounted. But unfortunately, the more general the monotheistic
ideas, the harder influence is to prove. Anyone can imagine the idea
of one God without a group of monotheists nearby. If the Greek
philosophers were calling Him YHWH influence would be indisputable.

Reconstructing, say, 7th century BCE popular culture in a dozen
different sections of the eastern Mediterranean may well prove
impossible. It is hard enough from the Hellenistic and Roman periods,
when we have something like 30,000 inscriptions (graffiti, gravestone
texts, various dedications carved in stone; even the hours of the
private library of Pantaenus in Athens, carved in stone near the door
and recently found). For the later period we also have tens of
thousands of coins, occasional personal letters and receipts preserved
by the Sahara's sands, and the 500 or so works in the Loeb Classical
Library. But the earlier period has vastly less written materials,
and the languages (like Ugaritic) are not as well known. So we may
never be able to determine with precision the potential influence of
Israelite and Yahwist (I hestitate to say Jewish; tha term applies
after about 500 BCE) idea on the Greeks.

But this is very different than saying specific Greek philosophers
visited specific Israelite prophets. The Islamic historical
tradition, without any known historical evidence, occasionally asserts
such contact (though it also asserts the historical impossiblity of
such contact). Baha'u'llah clearly quotes Islamic historians on this
matter; Juan's article on "Problems of Chronology" makes this
abundantly clear. It is also clear we cannot assert the impossibility
of such contact; we do not have access to a time machine. But the
specific contacts mentioned by Baha'u'llah appear to suffer grave
chronological problems--the people meeting each other apparently were
not alive in the same century--hence historians certainly are right to
assert the *extreme* unlikeliness of contact. I think it is best to
say some sort of indirect cultural influence between Greece and Israel
is possible and leave it at that. Who knows what scholars will piece
together a century from now.

-- Rob Stockman

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: JWALBRID@ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Greek philosophers travelling to the Orient
Date: Tuesday, May 16, 1995 0:38:13 EZT
Attach:
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The traditions that the Greek philosophers studied with the Israelite
prophets are unsupportable on chronological grounds. There is rather
better evidence of contacts of other sorts with Persia, Babylonia, and
Egypt. Philosophy started in Ionia, which was for much of that time
a Persian province. The sources all agree that Pythagoras came from
a Greek family settled in Phoenicia and that he studied in Egypt. Since
there were long-standing Greek contacts with both Egypt and Syria,
this is not improbable. On the other hand, there is really nothing like
Greek philosophy in these countries.

john walbridge

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: JWALBRID@ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Greek philosophers travelling to the Orient
Date: Tuesday, May 16, 1995 19:32:21 EZT
Attach:
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From: PO2::"friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp" "Stephen R. Friberg" 15-MAY-1995 19:37:01.49
To: JWALBRID@ucs.indiana.edu
CC:
Subj: Re: Greek philosophers travelling to the Orient

> The traditions that the Greek philosophers studied with the Israelite
> prophets are unsupportable on chronological grounds. There is rather
> better evidence of contacts of other sorts with Persia, Babylonia, and
> Egypt. Philosophy started in Ionia, which was for much of that time
> a Persian province. The sources all agree that Pythagoras came from
> a Greek family settled in Phoenicia and that he studied in Egypt. Since
> there were long-standing Greek contacts with both Egypt and Syria,
> this is not improbable. On the other hand, there is really nothing like
> Greek philosophy in these countries.

Dear Professor Walbridge:

For some time now, it has interested me to know how Judaic thought came to
influence Greek philosophy. It seems to me that this is what was meant by
Baha'u'llah in His Tablet about these matters. What seems sensible to me is
the following. Perhaps you could comment on it with a critical eye.

My understanding of Judaism is that Judaic power peaked sometime around 1000
years before Christ, and that it was accompanied by a magnificent outpowering
of clerical creativity: the compilation of oral traditions into forms that
we see mirrored today in the Judaic bible. This creativity, supported as
it was by a freely spending court, not only gathered together the
monotheistic doctrines of the Judaic prophets, but also much of the Wisdom
literature of the culture (or maybe I should say, cultures). The latter part
is important. Judaism didn't exist in a vacuum: Judaic culture was strongly
influenced by neigboring cultures, and vice versa (if is indeed correct to say
that there was a distinct Judaic culture at the time). In particular, the
Phoenicians (who, if I understand correctly, were from the coastal areas of
northern Israel and southern Lebanon) were a sea-faring people who
traveled widely through-out the Mediterranean and the neighboring
seas, were merchants with a wide range of contacts, and established
colonies and outposts through-out the range of their travels. Through
the influence of courtly Judaic culture on the Phoenicians and by
other means, I would expect Judaic monotheism and its Wisdom
literature to be widely available (at least by the standards of the
time) by the time that the Greek settlements in modern Turkey started
producing lovers of wisdom (philosophers) several hundred years later.


So, I find no difficulty at all in believing that Judaic thinking
reached and affected the Greeks. Socratic and Platonic thinking
clearly has monotheistic influences that do not seem at all to be
derived from Greek traditions. I would actually be surprised if the
influence was not there. The Greeks were but one among many peoples who
migrated toward the cultural and economic centers of the Ancient East,
modifying and advancing their culture in the process, bringing new
vitality, capturing the governments, and absorbing the local traditions.

(Of course, you can view the Greeks as Europeans with a philosophical
bent. This seems to be the way Renaissance folks dealt with the fact
that most of their learning and sciences came from Islamic sources.
Rather than attribute it to Islam (even poor Bruno got burned to death
at the stake for mentioning ancient Egypt as a source of wisdom) which
was as sure a path to seeing St. Peter as one could hope for, it was
much more politic to attribute anything and everything to the ancient
Greeks. That way, you could avoid nasty brushes with burning piles of
cordwood.

But by any other standard (for example, see how students of Byzantium
consider the Greeks), Greece was but one cog in the Ancient Eastern
cultural theater. Abdu'l Baha seems to have seen it this way, and I
have found it a welcome relief from parochial thinking.)

Yours sincerely,
Stephen R. Friberg
Kanagawa, Japan

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: JWALBRID@ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Greek philosophers travelling to the Orient
Date: Tuesday, May 16, 1995 19:32:21 EZT
Attach:
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From: PO2::"friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp" "Stephen R. Friberg" 15-MAY-1995 19:37:01.49
To: JWALBRID@ucs.indiana.edu
CC:
Subj: Re: Greek philosophers travelling to the Orient

> The traditions that the Greek philosophers studied with the Israelite
> prophets are unsupportable on chronological grounds. There is rather
> better evidence of contacts of other sorts with Persia, Babylonia, and
> Egypt. Philosophy started in Ionia, which was for much of that time
> a Persian province. The sources all agree that Pythagoras came from
> a Greek family settled in Phoenicia and that he studied in Egypt. Since
> there were long-standing Greek contacts with both Egypt and Syria,
> this is not improbable. On the other hand, there is really nothing like
> Greek philosophy in these countries.

Dear Professor Walbridge:

For some time now, it has interested me to know how Judaic thought came to
influence Greek philosophy. It seems to me that this is what was meant by
Baha'u'llah in His Tablet about these matters. What seems sensible to me is
the following. Perhaps you could comment on it with a critical eye.

My understanding of Judaism is that Judaic power peaked sometime around 1000
years before Christ, and that it was accompanied by a magnificent outpowering
of clerical creativity: the compilation of oral traditions into forms that
we see mirrored today in the Judaic bible. This creativity, supported as
it was by a freely spending court, not only gathered together the
monotheistic doctrines of the Judaic prophets, but also much of the Wisdom
literature of the culture (or maybe I should say, cultures). The latter part
is important. Judaism didn't exist in a vacuum: Judaic culture was strongly
influenced by neigboring cultures, and vice versa (if is indeed correct to say
that there was a distinct Judaic culture at the time). In particular, the
Phoenicians (who, if I understand correctly, were from the coastal areas of
northern Israel and southern Lebanon) were a sea-faring people who
traveled widely through-out the Mediterranean and the neighboring
seas, were merchants with a wide range of contacts, and established
colonies and outposts through-out the range of their travels. Through
the influence of courtly Judaic culture on the Phoenicians and by
other means, I would expect Judaic monotheism and its Wisdom
literature to be widely available (at least by the standards of the
time) by the time that the Greek settlements in modern Turkey started
producing lovers of wisdom (philosophers) several hundred years later.


So, I find no difficulty at all in believing that Judaic thinking
reached and affected the Greeks. Socratic and Platonic thinking
clearly has monotheistic influences that do not seem at all to be
derived from Greek traditions. I would actually be surprised if the
influence was not there. The Greeks were but one among many peoples who
migrated toward the cultural and economic centers of the Ancient East,
modifying and advancing their culture in the process, bringing new
vitality, capturing the governments, and absorbing the local traditions.

(Of course, you can view the Greeks as Europeans with a philosophical
bent. This seems to be the way Renaissance folks dealt with the fact
that most of their learning and sciences came from Islamic sources.
Rather than attribute it to Islam (even poor Bruno got burned to death
at the stake for mentioning ancient Egypt as a source of wisdom) which
was as sure a path to seeing St. Peter as one could hope for, it was
much more politic to attribute anything and everything to the ancient
Greeks. That way, you could avoid nasty brushes with burning piles of
cordwood.

But by any other standard (for example, see how students of Byzantium
consider the Greeks), Greece was but one cog in the Ancient Eastern
cultural theater. Abdu'l Baha seems to have seen it this way, and I
have found it a welcome relief from parochial thinking.)

Yours sincerely,
Stephen R. Friberg
Kanagawa, Japan

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: Juan R Cole <jrcole@umich.edu>
Subject: Greeks and Jewish Prophets
Date: Tuesday, May 16, 1995 21:48:10 EZT
Attach:
Certify: N
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the basic question is how we know what we know. As a
professional historian, I am involved in attempting to recover the human
past. How can I do that?

First, I need evidence originating in the past. Like a detective, I
value eye-witnesses who give their statements as soon as possible after
the event.

Please note: There are *no* early documents indicating that any Greek
philosophers met with any Jewish prophets. Nor is there any obvious
biblical influence on any ancient Greek text.

The assertions to the contrary made by Alexandrian Jews of the
Hellenistic period; by early Christians; and then (in an even more
muddled form) by medieval Muslims, suffer from being extremely late and
unattested by any ancient authority. I conclude therefore that the
entire business is simple apologetic. Unfortunately the Judaic tradition
had this conviction that all forms of propositional truth should emanate
from revealed scripture. They therefore had to bend over backwards to
justify studying secular philosophy. They therefore invented the meeting
of Socrates with "X" (there weren't actually any Jewish prophets *alive*
in the 300s B.C., to my recollection; it was late for them).

We can extricate ourselves from this historical morass by simply agreeing
that all forms of propositional truth do not emanate from revealed
scriptures. That scriptures convey ethical and spiritual truth, and that
in order to know things like what happened in the distant past, we need
historians and contemporary documentation. Indeed, only by giving up the
Judaic fallacy can we hope to have a religion at peace with science.

Incidentally, there is no independent substantiation for the biblical
accounts of 1) the Jewish Exodus or 2) the early Jewish state under
"David" and "Solomon." Very large amounts of the material in Exodus,
Joshua, and Kings is probably legendary. The Assyrians kept rather good
chronicles and tended to notice things like the growth of powerful states
in the neighborhood. One problem with having Pythagoras learn from
"Solomon", aside from the fact that even their putative dates are
hundreds of years apart, is that Solomon himself may be more legend than
history.

Think! Question! Demand evidence! Blind obedience has been abolished
in this religion.

Cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: "Stockman, Robert" <rstockman@usbnc.org>
Subject: Greek Philosophers
Date: Tuesday, May 16, 1995 2:19:00 EZT
Attach:
Certify: N
Forwarded by:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously, one cannot rule out any contact between Greece and Israel.
Archaeologists have long noted that Greek pottery became a major
import item into Palestine quite early; I think 800 or 700 B.C.E. As
John notes, Ionia was a Persian province. Asia Minor much later (1-2d
century BCE) became a major place of settlement of Jews, and is
possible the diaspora settlement started there under the Persians much
earlier.

The other question scholars haven't begun to get a handle on is the
influence of Judaism on "popular" culture or even on high culture at
various times in Mediteranean history. For example, we know that by
about the time of Christ the idea of a Sabbath had been adopted in the
Roman Empire; you work six days and rest one. One must ask the
question, how widespread was knowledge in the polytheistic
Mediterranean that the Jews were monotheistic? What subtle influence
did this exert? The idea that very general monotheistic ideas from
Judaism might have exerted an influence on Greek philosophy cannot be
discounted. But unfortunately, the more general the monotheistic
ideas, the harder influence is to prove. Anyone can imagine the idea
of one God without a group of monotheists nearby. If the Greek
philosophers were calling Him YHWH influence would be indisputable.

Reconstructing, say, 7th century BCE popular culture in a dozen
different sections of the eastern Mediterranean may well prove
impossible. It is hard enough from the Hellenistic and Roman periods,
when we have something like 30,000 inscriptions (graffiti, gravestone
texts, various dedications carved in stone; even the hours of the
private library of Pantaenus in Athens, carved in stone near the door
and recently found). For the later period we also have tens of
thousands of coins, occasional personal letters and receipts preserved
by the Sahara's sands, and the 500 or so works in the Loeb Classical
Library. But the earlier period has vastly less written materials,
and the languages (like Ugaritic) are not as well known. So we may
never be able to determine with precision the potential influence of
Israelite and Yahwist (I hestitate to say Jewish; tha term applies
after about 500 BCE) idea on the Greeks.

But this is very different than saying specific Greek philosophers
visited specific Israelite prophets. The Islamic historical
tradition, without any known historical evidence, occasionally asserts
such contact (though it also asserts the historical impossiblity of
such contact). Baha'u'llah clearly quotes Islamic historians on this
matter; Juan's article on "Problems of Chronology" makes this
abundantly clear. It is also clear we cannot assert the impossibility
of such contact; we do not have access to a time machine. But the
specific contacts mentioned by Baha'u'llah appear to suffer grave
chronological problems--the people meeting each other apparently were
not alive in the same century--hence historians certainly are right to
assert the *extreme* unlikeliness of contact. I think it is best to
say some sort of indirect cultural influence between Greece and Israel
is possible and leave it at that. Who knows what scholars will piece
together a century from now.

-- Rob Stockman

To: Robert,Johnston,<robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Bcc:
From: Juan R Cole <jrcole@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: history
Date: Saturday, May 20, 1995 7:11:25 EZT
Attach:
Certify: N
Forwarded by:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert: I think this discussion has gotten to the point where at least
some of the sides cannot even understand the other. Here, no doubt, the
fault lies with me; but I found your message incomprehensible. What
could it possibly mean? We can only have certainty in the Baha'i faith
if we believe in the inerrancy of all propositions occuring in the
Writings of Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha? Propositional inerrancy is,
philosophically speaking, impossible to define satisfactorily, and almost
certainly cannot exist in the real world.

Why can't we have history as reason and evidence knows it, and revealed
spirituality as the spirit knows that? Why insist on history, astronomy,
etc. from revealed texts whose primary purpose was not to teach the latter?

This entire discussion is simply a rehash of reason versus revelation,
which has occurred in each of the Abrahamic faiths; numbers of us on the
side of reason have been burned to death (Giordano Bruno among them) or
intimidated into silence.

As for historians "in the know" or owning the truth: all historians have
is a set of basic methods for determining what happened in the past.
They are simple methods, but a graduate education in their use certainly
does have advantages if one is seriously interested in the subject.
Mainly, what is wanted is some kind of evidence about what happened,
emanating from eye witnesses if possible, and recorded as soon as
possible after the events. Now, of course, even witnesses differ. And
why we should be interested in some events rather than others has a
subjective element to it. But if something is alleged to have happened
in the 400s B.C., but there is no evidence for it, and not even any
allegations that it happened until 1400 years later; and if those
allegations are themselves shot through with self-contradictions; then no
professional or even sound historian will accept the allegation. This is
not skepticism, it is simple common sense. Historians do not own the
truth; indeed, historical truth is constantly evolving, as part of the
dialogue among historians about the meaning of the existing evidence; or
about new evidence historians have dug up. But they are custodians of
the past, and of the best methods they can find for reliably knowing the
past. The public ignores their findings to its peril, since history is
identity and bad history is false identity.

So you see, all you have to do to convince me you are right is to show me
any evidence at all, beyond a mere unsupported allegation, that you are.
If you cannot produce that evidence, but resort simply to quoting
scripture and insisting on its inerrancy, then I fail to see the
difference between your stance and that of Christian fundamentalists.

I'm going off on vacation for a few days, so someone else can have the
final word.

cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan

On Sat, 20 May 1995, Robert Johnston wrote:

> Dear Juan,
>
> If Baha'is are to maintain a position of scepticism regarding portrayals
> of history (and what ever else other than ethics) in the Baha'i Writings,
> then we might just as well forget history altogether, because an aspect of
> this scepticism is not only a repudiation of that which 'Abdu'l-Baha calls
> certainty, but also of what historians themselves (apart from one or two
> "in the know") have decided. What is left is the assumption that these one
> or two (or a handful) of contemporary Baha'i historians "own the truth" on
> these matters. I'm afraid such a position is not acceptable to me...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Robert.
>
>
>

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: JWALBRID@ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: History and Socrates
Date: Saturday, May 20, 1995 17:27:03 EZT
Attach:
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Robert:

In this particular case we have several sets of evidence:

1) Texts from the Baha'i writings that say, among other things,
a) that Socrates visited Greece;
b) that historical records say that he did.
These sources are from over 2,000 years after the supposed
event.

2) Islamic sources from the 10th century on that say exactly the same
thing about *Empedocles*. These are from 13 centuries or more after
the events.

3) Greek sources saying that Socrates spent his life in Greece, almost
all of it in Athens. The earliest of these come from Socrates' students.
The same sources give a good deal of information about Socrates'
views, which do not seem to have anything to do with the Jews.

4) A dense web of information on ancient chronology indicating very
consistently that Socrates lived well after the last Israelite prophets
rather than soon after Solomon.

A representative sample of these sources is available in English for
anyone who cares to look at them.

As I wrote earlier, it is quite clear what happened.

1. During the Hellenistic and Imperial periods, the early figures of
Greek philosophy acquired enormous prestige.

2. Muslim scholars, commited to a theological system in which knowledge
was supposed to come from prophets, devised a sacred history in which
the early philosophers were students of the Israelite prophets. In this,
they were aided by the general confusion with which Islamic historians
approached pre-Islamic chronology. (I suspect this approach was
borrowed from Christians, but I do not have the texts to prove it.)

3. Several versions of this history were repeatedly copied in Islamic
sources through the century.

4. `Abdu'l-Baha, being a cultured man within the Islamic tradition and
without access to a good library, cited this story from memory, attributing
a story that properly belonged to the relatively obscure Empedocles to
the better known Socrates.

If you can give me some reason why I should not accept this account
of events, I would be interested to hear it. In any case, given the
preponderance of evidence, it seems to me silly to insist on the literal
truth of `Abdu'l-Baha's account of events. This is particularly so since
`Abdu'l-Baha himself says that he is quoting historical sources.

On other matters, I remember reading *The Comprehensive Deepening
Program* when it came out. I thought about it and eventually concluded
that it was objectionable because it was an attempt to make a behaviorist
theory of mysticism. Since mysticism is ultimately about experience, not
behavior, I did not think it worked. It has since gone on to what I therefore
consider deserved oblivion.



John Walbridge
Indiana University

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: JWALBRID@ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: "Islamic" science
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 1995 17:56:01 EZT
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We have a big history of science department here. I have been arguing
lately with a friend who has just finished a book on the relation between
medieval European and modern science. The historians of science tend
to think that there is a fundamental gap between medieval (Christian
or Islamic) and modern science. This sounds suspiciously neat to me, but
they would know best.

As for "Islamic" science, the point that I wish to make is not that there
were not (or are now, for that matter) accomplished Muslim scientists, but
that Islamic civilization as Islamic was not particularly welcoming
to this enterprise. Now, my above-mentioned colleague believes that
the reception of Islamic science was an essential precondition to the
rise of modern science in Europe in that it saved the Europeans
centuries of work. However, he argues that science was
always marginalized in Islam for theological reasons. He points out
that Christianity arose in a Graeco-Roman environment, came to
maturity in that environment, and thus was always comfortable with
Greek modes of thought. Islam was different, and indeed Christianity
did not have influential figures like Ash'ari, Ghazali, and Ibn Taymiyya to
question the fundamental validity of the whole natural scientific/
philosophical enterprise. Maragha, the high point of Islamic
astronomy, was paid for by a pagan Mongol ruler, for example.
Philosophy, likewise, was a marginal enterprise in Islam, whereas
in Europe it was firmly integrated with theology.
He also thinks that the curriculum of the medieval European
universities, which included natural science, was a critical precondition
for the rise of modern science. (I submitted to him that the Islamic
reluctance to adopt printing played a critical role, but that is another
story.)

In short, I continue to hold that, as remarkable as the achievements
of individual Islamic astronomers were, science and philosophy were
marginal enterprises in Islam and it was thus not accidental that
modern science arose in Europe rather than in the Islamic Middle East.

BTW, although I am prepared to admit the likelihood of Pythagoras
visiting the Middle East (although not consorting with the students of
Solomon, as the medieval sources claim), Socrates certainly did not go
anywhere, other than on a military expedition to northern Greece. There
are those who have revived the claim that Plato visited Egypt, though,
although it seems less likely to me. Abdu'l-Baha is quoting commonplaces
of Islamic culture. I can give you the chain of Arabic sources, going back
to at least the 10th century. It is something that everybody "knew" but that
was not true.


John Walbridge

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca,(Christopher Buck)
Bcc:
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: The Problem with Kalki
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 1995 10:13:43 EZT
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Further to Mohan's posting, Robert Stockman's distinction
between historical and theological statements might be useful for
dealing with the Kalki (Tenth Avatar) prophecies.

*Kalki Vishnuyashas* ("The Destroyer, Fame of Vishnu [= Glory
of God"] is the name of the Tenth Avatar (there are many avatar lists
with more names, however).

Historically, it seems that the Kalki cycle, as found in the
*Kalki Upapuranam*, is modelled on the Gupta king Yasodharman
(5th-century) who drove the White Huns out of the region of India that
is now Malwa.

Through a compression of Yasodharman's two names (which
at the moment escape me), we get the messianic title, *Visnuyashas*.
Thus, the Kalki *prophecies* are simply *inverted history* (to use an
expression of Firuz Kazemzadeh's).

As Eddy points out in his classic study, *The King Is Dead",
apocalyptic is a form of crisis literature that projects a
*wish-image* onto the future. thus, the Kalki cycle employs the
literary device I spoke of previously, to wit: *vaticinia ex eventu*
(predictions from past events).

I wrote about all this in a manuscript which *World Order*
magazine rejected a number of years ago: *The Mystery of the Sworded
Warrior in Hindu Apocalypse: Was Kalki Vishnuyashas Baha'u'llah?*.

Theologically, it appears that it was 'Abdu'l-Baha who
officially linked Baha'u'llah with Kalki, after he approved an essay
which a Baha'i submitted for approval. The author might have been
somebody with "Roy" in his name (Roy C. Amore comes to mind, but it's
been years since I've thought about any of this). The article that the
Master approved was published in *Star of the West*.

Basically, Kalki fights a big, bloody war and the Brahmins get
their jobs back. The whole Kalki cycles practically has to be negated,
or radically reinterpreted, for any authentic fulfillment claim to be
credible.

Christopher Buck

**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************

To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: Juan R Cole <jrcole@umich.edu>
Subject: Aqdas
Date: Monday, May 29, 1995 16:11:29 EZT
Attach:
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The thematic reading of the Aqdas that I propose will begin with six
pillars of the Baha'i faith. Islam has five pillars; we probably have
more than six, but I am proposing we begin with six.

1. Recognition of God and of Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation for this age.
2. Prayer (obligatory and otherwise)
3. Fasting
4. alms and other religious giving (zakat and huququ'llah)
5. pilgrimage (hajj and ziyarah)
6. Covenant (`Abdu'l-Baha, houses of justice, Aghsan)

After we finish these "pillars" (my term only), we shall turn to a) laws
(ritual, personal status and criminal), to b) principles, to c) historical
allusions. At least, this is how I propose to do it, though I welcome
other possible schemas.

Although we have begun already discussing the first pillar, attaining
mystical insight/recognition (`irfan) into the Manifestation of God and
therefore into God, there are other theological and theophanological
passages in the Most Holy Book, and I suggest we discuss these before
going on to the second "pillar" (which we have also started in on). I
think it should also be possible to speed up the reading if we do it
thematically, since passages will be related and feed into each other,
and so I will post more frequently. As for the Arabic, maybe when
Shahrooz gets back from his travels he can begin again posting the girdsuz
text.

cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan

To: Talisman,<talisman@indiana.edu>
Cc:
Bcc:
From: David M Simmons <dsimmons@lilac.esd101.wednet.edu>
Subject: Elections, Diversity, Spirituality, Responsibility
Date: Tuesday, May 2, 1995 8:39:25 EZT
Attach:
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Joyous Twelfth Day of Ridvan to All!

Elections
Our community had 82% participation, 18 out of 22 adults. This is
a rural/suburban community (Spokane Valley, Washington), of about 80,000.

Diversity
Our community has Anglo, Persian, Black (African-American) and
Chinese-American believers, men and women. Three of the four ethnic
groups are represented on the assembly. Five members are women.

Spirituality
The discussion I am reading about a lack of spirituality in the
Baha'i communities is completely foreign. Our community can't get enough
of eachother. We have wonderful firesides, a brilliant teaching plan,
effective events, an intensive Baha'i Academy, 13 active children, 3
active youth, half of us play music and the Feasts and Assembly meetings
are well attended and uplifting! We had 7 enrollments last year. We met
all our goals including our contribution to the National Fund. It looks
like this year we will take on a unit of the Arc as well as an extension
teaching goal on an Indian Reservation. This is not a wealthy community
either.

Responsibility
When I became a Baha'i some of the members told me "You don't do
anything in this Faith for anyone else except Baha'u'llah. Don't ever
expect to get thanked for anything. Don't ever expect anything from
anyone else." I thought that was pretty cold but I have found it to be
true, at least for me. When I go to Feast I don't expect it to uplift me,
or else; I am prepared to contribute because that is what Baha'u'llah
expects of me. The same goes for Assembly meetings. Sure, I enjoy
devotional events and get a high from music and literature, but I am
responsible for my own spiritual high and well-being. I figure we are all
damaged goods living in a decadent and decaying society. We cannot expect
others to lift us up. I teach in a public high school and deal with race
relations, refugee/immigrant issues, violence and poverty every day and I
am in ecstacy. Perhaps I am just fortunte. Here in Washington State we
have 80 assemblies, most of them functioning. We just had a teaching
conference in a location that everyone had to drive from 2 to 5 hours to
get to and 200 believers showed up. Considering all the craziness in
today's world I think the friends are incredible.

I apologize for the length of this message and the lack of
scholarliness.

David Simmons
Spokane Valley, Washington, USA

To: talisman@ucs.indiana.edu
Cc:
Bcc:
From: Wendi and Moojan Momen <momen@northill.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Baha'u'llah and the Maiden
Date: Sunday, April 30, 1995 17:58:30 EZT
Attach:
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In article: <93541272405991/5055244@BMOA> rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com
writes:
>

> But I have always thought that existence of a "second" voice
> in the Writings would tantamount to duality which we oppose.
> Singularity of authority is a fundamental principle.
>
> ...
>
> In fact, let me go a step further and suggest that there is no
> voice in Aqdas except that of Baha'u'llah's.

I think the point that Terry is trying to make, and one which I have long
believed, is that the Maiden is Baha'u'llah. Therefore there is no "second
voice". The Maiden represents the Higher Self of Baha'u'llah, the "divine
appearence" within Baha'u'llah, using Abdu'l-Baha's classification of the
Three Stations of the Manifestations of God (SAQ chap 38). In the Siyah-Chal,
we witness this Higher Self of Baha'u'llah speaking to the lower self, the
rational soul of Baha'u'llah in Abdu'l-Baha's classification. The Maiden's
announcement is addressed to "all who are in heaven and all who are on earth"
(GPB 102) because of course Baha'u'llah himself has no need of this
announcement--the Manifestations of God are such right from birth and are
conscious of it (SAQ 155, 153). The event in the Siyah-Chal is a
mytho-poetic way of marking Baha'u'llah assumption of the Mantle of
Prophethood.

Thus in Baha'u'llah we have a Manifestation of God whose Higher Self (his
Divine nature) is feminine while his lower self (his human nature) is in a
male form. Could there be any more striking way of demonstrating the radical
change that this Dispensation has brought to human affairs?

I would then interpret the various passages in which there appears to be a
conversation or interlocution as a conversation between this Higher Self, the
Maiden, and the lower self, who is often addressed as the Supreme Pen (in the
Ridvan Tablet and the Fire Tablet, for example). This is a stunning metaphor.
The Divine Nature in Baha'u'llah uses the human nature as a vehicle for its
expression to humanity--the Maiden holding the Pen to write.

There is also the question of those passages (mostly untranslated) in which
Baha'u'llah expresses an ecstatic (or as John Walbridge would say erotic)
love for the Maiden. Here I think that one way of viewing these passages
is to see them in the way that Abdu'l-Baha explains the rebukes addressed by
God to the Prophets (SAQ chap. 44). In the same way that the Manifestation of
God is standing for humanity in these passages in which God appears to
address a rebuke to the Manifestation, so also in these love passages, the
human aspect of Baha'u'llah is standing in the place of humanity, indicating
to us how we humans, had we the capacity, should love the Divine Nature in
Baha'u'llah.

Moojan

--
Wendi and Moojan Momen
momen@northill.demon.co.uk
Fax: (44) 1767 627626

To: talisman@indiana.edu,<talisman@indiana.edu>
Cc:
Bcc:
From: Dariush Lamie <0007368608@mcimail.com>
Subject: Re.Maiden
Date: Sunday, April 30, 1995 20:04:10 EZT
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-- [ From: Dariush Lamie * EMC.Ver #2.3 ] --

Dear Terry,

Basically, I think that "Maiden" is only "metaphoric" . As, you said there may
be more references in other writings, I refered AT LEAST to four major tablets
of Baha'u'llah in which He EXPLAINS DIRECTLY the concept of the Maiden. In the
tablet "Law-i- Ruya", (which I do not know if this has been translated yet or
not), Baha'u'llah explains very profoundly about the concept of the "Maiden".
This tablet has been revealed in house of "Udi Khammar" and is very
interesting. Mr. Adib Taherzadeh explains this tablet and give a wonderful
summary of it in English in his book "Revelation of Baha'u'llah" vol.3, page
223.

With love,
Dariush

to maiden2