Talisman Bahai Archives Dec. 28-31, 1995
Dec. 28-31, 1995
Talisman emails received 12/28/95
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 02:51:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: talisman
Subject: This Day not followed by Night
Alison asks a question that I have wondered about much as well. She
writes: "BTW: It has always been a problem for me that this Day has been
described by Baha'u'llah as being the Day that will not be followed by
night, and yet, were this to be taken as an absolute, there would be no
need for another manifestation."
'Abdu'l-Baha writes in SAQ: "In this material world time has cycles...
At one time it is the season of spring; at another it is the season of
autumn; and again it is the season of summer or the season of winter... It
is the same with the spiritual cycles of the Prophets--that is to say, the
day of the appearance of the Holy Manifestations is the spiritual
springtime... Afterward the life-giving spring ends in fruitful summer...
When it reaches the meridian, it will begin to decline and descend, and
the spiritual summer will be followed by autumn, when growth and
development are arrested... winter arrives... When the season of winter
has had its effect, again the spiritual springtime returns, and a new
cycle appears."
How, then, are we to reconcile this cyclical teaching with the teaching
that the Day of Fulfilment, following the Era of Prophecy, will have no
end?
-Jonah
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 01:04:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: postmaster@eznet.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: faust@eznet.com
Dear eznet.com postmaster--
One of your subscribers has been dumping over 400 messages on a list I
subscribe to: Talisman@indiana.edu. Given the dubious nature of such an
action, not mention that it is against USENET regulations, I am herewith
requesting that you remove this persons account from use immediately.
Majordomo@indiana.edu indicates that faust@eznet.com is not even a
subscriber to the Talisman list.
Thank you for your consideration of this matter.
Regards,
Nima Hazini
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Homosexuality/Conscience
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 02:24:26 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi, Dave -
Thanks for your note. (BTW, did you all get bombed with all those
old messages from Talisman, Noble Creation, Baha'i Intuition, Baha'i
Tech etc.? I counted 450,000 bytes in about 90 minutes! Yet, without
that, I might not have received Dave Taylor's message, which was
apparently lost during one of my server's recent crashes. So I must,
at least on that account, be grateful to this individual.)
I agree with you regarding the social constructedness of sexual
to identity. Irrespective of whether there are any biological correlates
to homosexuality (and I rather suspect there are), the key is how human
sexuality is defined within the context of revealed truths. Obviously,
itt is a complex subject and one which, I think, will only be grasped
progressively.
From my POV, sex, on the animal level, *is* love. Like all things
physical, one's sexuality, as I think the Kashmir Shaivites understood
it, can be either a source of frustration and possible debasement or a
vehicle for spiritual transformation. In the dance of Shakti and Shiva
is a demonstration of the divine metaphysic of unity in diversity.
Femininity and masculinity, rather than viewed as distinct and separate
units, can be seen, in contemporary terms, as a holographic image. The
point of light is one. However, the appearance of spatial patterns
(diversity) is merely an emanation or impression of that unity of light.
In what could, perhaps, be called a Baha'i "tantra," all things have
certain ideal relationships. Conformity to the gestalt (configuration)
leads to the expression of beauty (the emanation of the Ancient Beauty)
in the kingdoms of creation. The key for discovering the divine pattern
lies in the Prophetic Teachings (the inner mysteries of "the words He
hath revealed"). That, to me, is the challenge. Our present-day world
order is so remote from the ideal that the gestalt itself, the tantra,
has been almost totally disrupted. However, rather than focusing
*primarily* on ameliorating the misconnections in the reality of outward
appearances, I would rather understood the inner dynamic which generates
the externals and attempt to work with it.
IMHO, gaia and all life on it itself express a tantric imbalance.
Homosexuality is only one small dimension of it. Rather than condemning
the condition of dis-ease which affects each one of us, perhaps we could
instead examine the spiritual animus which is responsible for our
present state of self-addiction. What virtues do I choose to link with,
and how can one's moral community, one's 'umma, realize one of its
primary functions as a cultivator of spiritual qualities.
Bright blessings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*1995 President, Kansas Sociological Society Co-Moderator, Baha'i Announce *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 01:39:33 MST
From: Gordon McFarlane
To: TALISMAN@indiana.edu
Subject: What the heck is going on!!!!
I have just finished purging approx 400 archived messages from Talisman sent by
some crackpot - has this happened to everybody on the list - if so, can
somethinbe done about it. It is really quite an annoyance. Thank you.
Gord.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: "back to Baha`u`llah"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 02:44:36 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what is being intended by the term
"back to Baha'u'llah." However, it is my understanding that by linking
with the Covenant (including the Master, the Guardian, and the Universal
House of Justice), we are, by definition, going back to Baha'u'llah. Why
is it necessary to make distinctions? Can't we just see these various
persons and institutions as forming a spiritual gestalt, and that by
turning to the Master, the Guardian, or the House, with the proper
perspective, we are, in reality, going back to the Blessed Beauty
anyway?
Warm regards to all,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*1995 President, Kansas Sociological Society Co-Moderator, Baha'i Announce *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 01:24:46 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Faust...
Well talis--- this list was not the only one... Spokane Area Bahai's was
hit, and Bahai Tech I got over 370 messages.... I have sent mail to the
list managers of each, and will soon find out... Funny thing, the address
for Spokane Area Bahai is the same as his.... (Spokane is a city on the
other side of the State of Washington.) I have no clue....
Delete is not a problem for me neither...
Good night, Now I am sleepy,
Margreet
=END=
From: Ahmad Aniss
Subject: garbage in my mbox
To: faust@eznet.com
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 20:26:37 +1100 (EST)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Whoever is faust@mail.eznet.com
What are you gaining by sending back e-mail messages from a number
of Baha'i sites. Please stop it. I had to delete over 300 messages
No need to be funny.
to talismanians: just delete any message which arrives from
faust@mail.eznet.com, this will get those messages off your system.
I hope this is not a system break down.
Best wishes,
Ahmad.
=END=
From: "Bud Polk"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 08:17:34 +0600
Subject: Faust is real account
Dear Friends,
I am forwarding in full the results of a "return receipt requested"
E-mail that I sent to faust@eznet.com. The bottom-line is that
"faust" is real because the message did not bounce. Since "faust"
is a real account, I strongly agree with Sadra that we all write to
"postmaster@eznet.com" and request that "excessive flooding" by
faust be stopped. Bud Polk
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 05:59:04 -0800
From: Mailer-Daemon@eznet.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Subject: Returned mail: Return receipt
To: cybrmage@niia.net (Bud Polk)
----- Transcript of session follows -----
<<< HELO silver.niia.net
<<< MAIL From:
<<< RCPT To:
<<< DATA
----- Message header follows -----
Received: from silver.niia.net by foothills (5.0/SMI-SVR4)
id AA01702; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 05:59:04 -0800
Received: from LOCALNAME (pm1-24.niia.net [204.248.189.24]) by
silver.niia.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id HAA20446 for
; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 07:59:31 -0600 Message-Id:
<199512281359.HAA20446@silver.niia.net> Comments: Authenticated sender
is From: "Bud Polk" To:
faust@eznet.com Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 08:00:23 +0600 Mime-Version:
1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: flooding Reply-To:
cybrmage@niia.net (Bud Polk) X-Confirm-Reading-To: cybrmage@niia.net
(Bud Polk) X-Pmrqc: 1 Return-Receipt-To: cybrmage@niia.net (Bud Polk)
Priority: urgent X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23)
content-length: 5
=END=
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: Faust
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 09:44:22 -0500
From: "Collins, William P."
-- [ From: Collins, William P. * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
I was chagrined to find that the flood of email messages this morning
completely undermined my email program and destroyed my entire address list,
all my folders, and cost me 3 hours of work. I was unable to restore any of
the lost material.
I am angered by those who find it so easy to be destructive, and who then
find it amusing. I wish upon the perpetrator a long life, and the whirlwind
of having done to him many times over what he has done to others. It will
make the lesson stick, I trust.
--
Bill Collins
4705541@mcimail.com (h)
wcol@loc.gov (w)
6819 Stoneybrooke Lane, Alexandria, VA 22306
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: faust@eznet.com
Date: 28 Dec 1995 08:31:52 GMT
It looks to me like this may be part of Eric's archiving project of Baha'i
lists and some to/from fields got mixed up. I hope he hasn't gone on
vacation. But pity poor Juan who, last I heard, was using a 2400 baud modem.
It only took me about 5 minutes to delete all the messages and set up a Bozo
filter for faust@eznet.com, but at 2400 bps, nothing happens quickly.
Don C
- sent via an evaluation copy of BulkRate (unregistered).
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 09:34:53
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: Sadra
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: faust@eznet.com
This is a great idea, Nima. If the flood doesn't stop, we could all
forward EVERY message we receive from Faust to the postmaster;
wouldn't that make a mess? If all of us forwarded just ten messages,
it would make a mess (if there are 200 of us on this list). I bet
that would produce a response.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: faust@eznet.com
Author: Sadra at INTERNET
Date: 12/28/95 8:43 AM
Dear eznet.com postmaster--
One of your subscribers has been dumping over 400 messages on a list I
subscribe to: Talisman@indiana.edu. Given the dubious nature of such an
action, not mention that it is against USENET regulations, I am herewith
requesting that you remove this persons account from use immediately.
Majordomo@indiana.edu indicates that faust@eznet.com is not even a
subscriber to the Talisman list.
Thank you for your consideration of this matter.
Regards,
Nima Hazini
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 16:23:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: America's Spiritual Destin
>>...enable them to bring to a triumphant termination the initial epoch in
>>the unfoldment of the Divine Plan which He has primarily entrusted to them...
>The first epoch of the Tablet of the Divine Plan was completed by Ridvan 1963..
.
Well, yeah, the first epoch was, but I read Shoghi Effendi's sentence above
differently, in that Shoghi Effendi, referring to "the Divine Plan which
He has primarily{ entrusted" to America, is telling us how to finish up the
"initial epoch." There's no comma after "Divine Plan" so this seems to be
the more grammatical understanding. (this is probably why we're warned
against interpreting; no two of us can read the same sentence the same
way ).
So, how about this one:
"Theirs will be the duty and privelege, in their capacity first as the
establishers of one of the most powerful pillars sustaining the edifice of
the Universal House of Justice, and then as the champion-builders of that
New World Order of which that House is to be the nucleus and forerunner,
to inculcate, demonstrate, and apply those twin and sorely-needed principles
of Divine justice and order..." Shoghi Effendi, _The Advent of Divine
Justice_, p.16 (lots of good stuff in that book!)
Note that we're supposed to be "champion-builders" of something of which
the UHJ is "nucleus and _forerunner_"-- that certainly implies that
American Baha'is have work to do between establishment of the UHJ and
beginning of the "Golden Age."
Leigh (frantically flipping pages...)
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 16:33:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Faust-o-Rama
Actually, at 2400 baud, it takes 2 hours, 20 minutes to clear that much
garbage out of a mailbox. Ick! Ugh! Ptoo! May it not happen again...
Leigh
=END=
From: "Bud Polk"
To: Sadra , "Stockman, Robert"
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:00:42 +0600
Subject: Re: faust@eznet.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
On 28 Dec 95 at 9:34, Stockman, Robert wrote:
>
> This is a great idea, Nima. If the flood doesn't stop, we
> could all forward EVERY message we receive from Faust to the
> postmaster; wouldn't that make a mess? If all of us forwarded
> just ten messages, it would make a mess (if there are 200 of us
> on this list). I bet that would produce a response.
>
> -- Rob Stockman
>
>
> ______________________________ Reply Separator
> _________________________________ Subject: faust@eznet.com Author:
> Sadra at INTERNET Date: 12/28/95 8:43 AM
>
>
> Dear eznet.com postmaster--
>
> One of your subscribers has been dumping over 400 messages on a list
> I subscribe to: Talisman@indiana.edu. Given the dubious nature of
> such an action, not mention that it is against USENET regulations, I
> am herewith requesting that you remove this persons account from use
> immediately. Majordomo@indiana.edu indicates that faust@eznet.com is
> not even a subscriber to the Talisman list.
>
> Thank you for your consideration of this matter.
>
> Regards,
> Nima Hazini
>
>
Dear friends,
If you have a mail client, say Pegasus, for example, you can create
"rules" that will forward _all_ messages containing "faust"
anywhere in the header to the postmaster and/or to faust@eznet.com.
Pegasus, for example, filters and queues automatically. All one
must do is "send queued messsages" and Pegasus and the server do the
rest.
Neither the postmaster@eznet.com nor faust has answered my posts. I
wonder ....
Bud Polk
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 10:30:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Suggestion for John Walbridge
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
John,
I suggest that you speak with Majordomo folks and see if you can
set up Talisman so that only mail from those who subscribe to
Talisman is forwarded through the reflective server.
This can easily be done with a logic statement which checks the
author of each message to see if that person is recognized by the
master subscription list of Talisman. And if the author does not
subscribe to Talisman, it won't forward the message to Talisman,
but will forward it only to you as the list owner which then you
can decide on its disposition.
During the past week we've experienced two unfortunate incidents:
an individual who is not a member of list posted here and caused
a bit of uproar (referring to Michelle Ma'ani incident), and
"Faust" bombardment of Talisman.
By the way, for those who use Windows to read their mail, you can
easily set up filters which would prevent receiving mail from any
given address. On occasions when I want to temporarily
unsubscribe from Talisman or other professional discussion groups
that I am on, I use such filters and that way don't have to mess
with Majordomo or other reflectors.
regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: 28 Dec 95 12:10:47 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Overwhelming Message Volume
Dear Talismanians,
Although I've been a tad indisposed during the holidays, I leave Talisman
for a few days, and bingo, 469 messages! Argh! Because I'm on the very
inadequate Compuserve mail program, 100 of those got to me, and the rest
bounced back into some unfortunate one's return file (sorry, John!).
Were all of these messages archived old posts from "faust", as were the
last ten or so I received?
At any rate, Mom and Dad leave for a little while and the kids wreak havoc.
Love,
David
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: rstockman@usbnc.org
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: faust@eznet.com
Date: 28 Dec 1995 11:34:06 GMT
Before we all go off half-cocked, we need to take a few things into
consideration.
First off, what ever happened has quit, at least for the time being.
Secondly, a message has already been sent to the postmaster of the site.
Thirdly, there is no reason I can see to believe that what happened was any
kind of plot or practical joke.
Because it covered such a long period (10 days?) and is not now occuring, I
think any further action is unwarranted unless it occurs again tonight.
In any case, mass mailings are not a good way to endear the list to the admin
of the eznet.com. Because it is a commercial site, there is a very high
liklihood that someone is trying to find out exactly what happened and why.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 12:41:00 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: America's Spritual Destiny
Mr. Buck:
Those are indeed excellent questions. The first is something we need to
explore here, and I do have some thoughts on it. Let me handle the second
question first.
>>(2) Finally, are not Native Americans and Native Canadians integral
to America's spiritual destiny?<<
I have worked extensively with the Native American community in the West
for years. I was telling Terry just the other day that I plan to be
travelling *Indian Country* this Spring with a friend. I was raised on a
reservation and most my immediate kin are Native (I'm not - half English and
half Spanish/Mexican.)
I do feel that the People have an intregal part to play in the unfoldment.
And yes Canadians too. Although I think most of the Guardian's penetrating
stare was directed at the US - by simply virtue of it being _what_ it is he
obviously was including Canada and perhaps to a lesser extent Mexico. I say
that because if you look at the Advent of Divine Justice - perhaps the
centerpiece of his vision, he clearly expected us to repeat the spiritual
revolution that the original dawnbreakers had in Persia - because as he
clearly stated the US was in most ways even worse of morally and spiritually.
The People do have a role - a very important one I feel.
AS to question #1 - Mr. Buck that is a great insight. That point had never
dawned on me in the way in which you voiced it - tho I had seen the quote
many times. I would love to discuss it and hear what Terry and Kevin as well
as Brent and Juan would have to say about it. Mark and David T., also. And
Margreet . . .and et al (whoever he is.)
. . . but what of Burl?
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 12:41:13 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Bull in a China closet
I am sure Burl could make a good pun out of that . . .
Friends. My intention in forcefully engaging your attention has been simply
to bring this most important of issues to the fore. Some have mistook my
forthright manner in setting aside many of the other issues of contention
here as a callous disregard for other's pain and concerns. Nothing could be
further from the truth.
I too have *issues* that are extremely important to me, on a personal level.
Working with the Native Americans and their plight affects my heart deeply.
Economic injustice and prejudice of all kinds tear me up and I do what I can
about them.
But all of these pains are symptoms of a much larger illness. Attempting to
face this widespread disease is overwhelming to the most optimistic observer.
Indeed if we were not promised divine assistance no sane person would
consider it.
Martin Luther King jr. believed in this divine assistance. And he did move
this nation. he touched our consciousness and our conscience. And it is so
apparent that this is essentially what the Guardian was so hoping for from
us.
But we faced a lot of inertia. And our population was composed primarily of
middle class whites. AS any good historian will tell you this group is
usually the last to jump on any bandwagon. They're too busy trying to hang in
there and possibly get ahead - always reaching for that illusion held out to
them by those that have a firm control of their economic and social destiny.
As a community we have to date failed to arise. Thos is not to say that many
great individuals have not sacrificed themselves in attempting to see the
vision brought to reality here in America. We love our heros. America loves
their heros. We live vicariously through them. It is our culture. it is a
result, oddly enough, of an excessive bent on individualism, but that is
another story . . .
I am sorry if I have stepped on some toes. I never have intended to hurt
anyone. But this crisis our community suffers is far too important to go
unnoticed, let alone examined and then, finally, clearly dealt with to the
end.
If we truly want to see an end to the various ills we suffer from let us deal
with the disease, honestly, directly, bravely. Let us examine it and
ourselves - where it resides. Let us heal ourselves so that we can, as the
Guardian promised us, heal our fellow countrymen.
>>The gross materialism that engulfs the entire nation at the Present
hour; the attachment to worldly things that enshrouds the souls of men;
the fears and anxieties that distract their minds; the pleasure and
dissipations that fill their time, the prejudices and animosities that
darken their outlook, the apathy and lethargy that paralyze their
spiritual faculties - these are among the formidable obstacles that stand
in the path of every would-be warrior in the service of Baha'u'llah,
obstacles which he must battle against and surmount in his crusade for
the redemption of his own countrymen.
To the degree that the home front crusader is himself cleansed of
these impurities, liberated from these petty preoccupations and gnawing
anxieties, delivered from these prejudices and antagonisms, emptied
of self, and filled by the healing and the sustaining power of
God, will he be able to combat the forces arrayed against him, magnetize
the souls of those whom he seeks to convert, and win their unreserved,
their enthusiastic and enduring allegiance to the Faith of
Baha'u'llah.
Delicate and strenuous though the task may be, however arduous
and prolonged the effort required, whatsoever the nature of the perils
and pitfalls that beset the path of whoever arises to revive the fortunes
of a Faith struggling against the rising forces of materialism, nationalism,
secularism, racialism, ecclesiasticism, the all-conquering potency
of the grace of God, vouchsafed through the Revelation of Baha'u'llah,
will, undoubtedly, mysteriously and surprisingly, enable whosoever
arises to champion His Cause to win complete and total victory.
(Citadel of Faith, pages 148-149)
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 12:41:08 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: America's Spiritual Destiny
In a message dated 95-12-27 11:41:32 EST, you write:
>Let me state my belief about the America's spiritual destiny, and I'll
>do so in a way to provoke a response from you ;-}
>
>I believe America's spiritual destiny is already fulfilled.
Dear Ahang:
It would seem that a number of folks disagree with your assessment.
Actually I have heard the above a more than a few times. And it is usually
expressed similarly to what you said here. Mostly it has to do with a narrow
reading of the Guardian's exhortations for Baha'is in America to pioneer. As
a matter of fact one of those passages which I had heard for years - one
often quoted when various folk wanted to praise our great actions, pat us on
the head and keep us down on the farm, so to speak:
>>The spirit that sent forth, not so long ago, in such
rapid succession, so many pioneers to such remote areas of the globe,
must at all costs and above everything else, be recaptured, for the two-fold
purpose of swelling the number, and of ensuring the continual
flow, of pioneers, so essential for the safeguarding of the prizes won in
the course of the several campaigns of a world-girdling Crusade,<<
Now here is the section we usually see - when we have been urged to "continue
to fulfill America's spiritual destiny!" in the American Baha'i newspaper, at
conferences, etc. There are other quotes as well of course, but this is a
good one. Except you usually see it just like this - rarely do you see the
rest of this:
>> and of combatting the evil forces which a relentless and all-pervasive
materialism,
the cancerous growth of militant racialism, political corruption, unbridled
capitalism, wide-spread lawlessness and gross immorality, are, alas,
unleashing, with ominous swiftness, amongst various classes of the society to
which the members of this community belong.<<
(Citadel of Faith, page 154)
Combine this with the tone and the present sense of urgency in the message
beow:
>>I feel it nevertheless incumbent upon me to utter,
at this juncture, a word of warning. The glowing tributes,
so repeatedly and deservedly paid to the capacity, the
spirit, the conduct, and the high rank, of the American believers,
both individually and as an organic community,
must, under no circumstances, be confounded with the
characteristics and nature of the people from which God has
raised them up. A sharp distinction between that community
and that people must be made, and resolutely and fearlessly
upheld, if we wish to give due recognition to the
transmuting power of the Faith of Baha'u'llah, in its impact
on the lives and standards of those who have chosen to enlist
under His banner. Otherwise, the supreme and distinguishing
function of His Revelation, which is none other
than the calling into being of a new race of men, will remain
wholly unrecognized and completely obscured.
(Advent of Divine Justice, page 16)
And then compare it with this:
>>A PRAYER WHICH I NEVER CEASE TO UTTER
The Prizes within the reach of this community are truly inestimable.
Much will depend on the reaction of the rank and file of the
believers to the plea now addressed to them with all the fervor of my
soul.
To act, and act promptly and decisively, is the need of the present
hour and their inescapable duty. That the American Baha'i Community
may, in this one remaining field, where so much is at stake, and
where the needs of the Faith are so acute, cover itself with a glory that
will outshine the splendor of its past exploits in the far-flung territories
of the globe, is a prayer which I never cease to utter in my continual
supplications to Baha'u'llah.
(Citadel of Faith, page 150)
The "one remaining field" the Guardian is referrring to here is of course
the homefront.
Lest anyone jump too quickly and attempt to discredit this by suggesting
these quotes are being taken out of context all I can say is that would be
false. I can provide (as can most of you, if you do the homework) all the
references from the Guardian in the writings as easily as I. All I did, after
hearing Counsellor Enello was go to the writings and begin extracting
_everything_ that the Guardian, the Master and the Universal House of Justice
had written about America. And it is as clear as a bell struck soundly.
Nothing hidden. No textual disputes, no translation problems. Straight up.
If America (the Baha'i community) - if we had done our duty the
social/spiritual landscape we see before us would be markedly different. The
Guardian clearly gave, as did the Master before him distinct indicators -
signposts - that would let us know if we were succeeding. On the positive
side these were significant increase in enrollement and even more important
an expanding and maturing community, (considering the problems discussed
here, which I supposedly so callousley tossed aside . . . again if you had
noted in all my lil' battles with Juan and Linda I stated that the *problems*
they were addressing primarily stem from NOT fulfilling our destiny as laid
out by Shoghi Effendi and that if we want to see a resolution of them we need
to arise to do this thing - never once have I said they were irrelevent -
they are simply symptoms and if we constantly dwell on them we will _never_
get to the root cause.)
On the negative side (if we want to view it that way) we will be openly
and visciously attacked:
>>In the conduct of this twofold crusade the valiant warriors
struggling in the name and for the Cause of Baha'u'llah
must, of necessity, encounter stiff resistance, and suffer
many a setback. Their own instincts, no less than the fury of
conservative forces, the opposition of vested interests, and
the objections of a corrupt and pleasure-seeking generation,
must be reckoned with, resolutely resisted, and completely
overcome. As their defensive measures for the impending
struggle, are organized and extended, storms of abuse and
ridicule, and campaigns of condemnation and misrepresentation,
may be unloosed against them. Their Faith, they may
soon find, has been assaulted, their motives misconstrued,
their aims defamed, their aspirations derided, their institutions
scorned, their influence belittled, their authority undermined,
and their Cause, at times, deserted by a few who
will either be incapable of appreciating the nature of their
ideals, or unwilling to bear the brunt of the mounting criticisms
which such a contest is sure to involve. "Because of
'Abdu'l-Baha," the beloved Master has prophesied, "many a
test will be visited upon you. Troubles will befall you, and suffering
afflict you."
(Advent of Divine Justice, pages 41-42)
and this also:
>>The administrative strongholds of a Faith, bound to be subjected on
the one hand, to a severe spiritual challenge from within, through the
inevitable impact of these devastating influences on its infant strength,
and, on the other, to the onslaught of ecclesiastical leaders, the
traditional defenders of religious orthodoxy from without, must be
multiplied and reinforced for the purpose of warding off the inevitable
attacks of the assailants, of vindicating the ideals and principles which
animate their defenders, and of ensuring the ultimate victory and
ascendency of the Faith itself over the nefarious elements seeking to
undermine it from within, and its powerful detractors aiming at its
extinction from without.
(Citadel of Faith, page 154)
These are just two examples - there are dozen of other quotes - all with a
tense that indicates that this will not occur in some far-flung future
America but soon - within the lifetimes of those reading the letters. All of
ADJ and CF is urgent in tone - the time is now! Ruhiyyih Khanum repeats this
over and over in The Priceless Pearl and The Guardian of the Baha'i Faith.
This is a very long post. I hope tho that this conveys some impression of how
I see this. It is not a dead issue. Certainly Mr. Buck's question concerning
the lesser peace and that letter from the Guardian would indicate that.
Thank you very much sir for your candid response. I hope we can discourse on
this honestly, openly, and with searching hearts.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 11:57:51
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re[3]: faust@eznet.com
I agree. Thank God it has stopped.
John does not appear to be around; I suspect he's out of town for a
few days. I sent a message to majordomo@indiana.edu about the problem
but it bounced back, though maybe it was forwarded to someone as well.
Does anyone know a better address for writing straight to majordomo?
I am sure they will do anything they can if we ask; they don't want
this volume of work either.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re: faust@eznet.com
Author: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com at INTERNET
Date: 12/28/95 11:47 AM
Before we all go off half-cocked, we need to take a few things into
consideration.
First off, what ever happened has quit, at least for the time being.
Secondly, a message has already been sent to the postmaster of the site.
Thirdly, there is no reason I can see to believe that what happened was any
kind of plot or practical joke.
Because it covered such a long period (10 days?) and is not now occuring, I
think any further action is unwarranted unless it occurs again tonight.
In any case, mass mailings are not a good way to endear the list to the admin
of the eznet.com. Because it is a commercial site, there is a very high
liklihood that someone is trying to find out exactly what happened and why.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 11:20:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Nothing special about America!
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Leigh,
I am glad to see such a worthy debater on this topic. And happy
to see that you're taking my push-backs in good cheers, as I mean
only to clarify the issue of America's spiritual destiny, which I
maintain is already fulfilled and there is nothing in the
writings which distinguishes the *current* task of this country
from the rest of the nations.
First, its not clear what is meant by "America". Do we mean the
continental United States (48 contagious States), or the entire
United States (Alaska and Hawaii too), or US and Canada, or the
entire continent of the Americas. I think as we read these
various quotes from the Guardian, it would be useful to ask which
of these land masses is he referring to because it seems
different pieces are meant at different times. So, I am going to
leave this as an issue that must be dealt with.
Now to the latest quotation which you kindly shared:
> "Theirs will be the duty and privilege, in their capacity first
> as the establishers of one of the most powerful pillars
> sustaining the edifice of the Universal House of Justice, and
> then as the champion-builders of that New World Order of which
> that House is to be the nucleus and forerunner, to inculcate,
> demonstrate, and apply those twin and sorely-needed principles
> of Divine justice and order..." Shoghi Effendi, _The Advent of
> Divine Justice_, p.16
> Note that we're supposed to be "champion-builders" of something
> of which the UHJ is "nucleus and _forerunner_"-- that certainly
> implies that American Baha'is have work to do between
> establishment of the UHJ and beginning of the "Golden Age."
It seems to me that this statement of the beloved Guardian has to
do with emergence of Baha'i World Commonwealth which again will
occur at the Golden Age. After all, the Guardian was clear:
The Formative Age --> the rise and establishment of the
Administrative order
The Golden Age --> the emergence of the World Order
So, I'm still not clear (nor convinced) that there is any special
destiny for this nation to fulfill between Ridvan 1963 and the
time of the Golden Age.
(Maybe I should stick to the Babi dispensation stuff ... I can
do less damage there ... ;-}
love, ahang.
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:24:41 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: What to do about faust@eznet.com
Dear talizens--
May I make a suggestion to _everyone_ on the list that we all complain to
the postmaster@eznet.com. The stunt this faust character just pulled is
actionable according to all USENET regulations. I just got through
forwarding every single piece of the 400+ re-hashed messages to his/her
postmaster. If others are willing to do the same, an immediate response is
guaranteed. I therefore second Rob Stockman's suggestion.
Regards,
Nima Hazini
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
"In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 12:54:54 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Talisman united?!!
Dear everyone,
I would like to personally thank "faust" for bringing us
all together ;-)
take care,
sAmAn
=END=
From: burl.barer@wwwhbbs.com (Burl Barer)
Subject: Server crash
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 02:21:05 GMT
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians:
For those of you wondering why Burl has not responded to E-Mail, it is
because wwwhbbs.com, my local server, had a crash unparalleld in the
past nor, hopefully, will future ages witness its like. It has now been
a week and I have not received a single message, nor have I been able to
send one. I don't know if this one will ever reach you (sniff). Perhaps
this is to help me understand how Abdul Baha or the Guardian may have
felt when communication was all but cut off from the outside world...and
believe me, when you live in Walla Walla, Washington, *everywhere else*
is the outside world.
Burl
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 13:00:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Let's wait on faust@eznet.com
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
I completely share the frustration and pain that this incident
has caused to all of us, but as some one suggested, and I happen
to agree, this could be due to a technical problem in Eric's
email system. I saw his name in the header of many of these
messages.
I suggest we don't send any of these messages back to
faust@eznet.com, because if indeed due to some bug this account
is forwarding everything back to Talisman (at off-pick hours to
save money), then we ourselves will suffer once again with this
bombardment -- which this time has occurred through our own
doing.
I am glad a couple of people wrote to postmaster@eznet.com, but
if this is Eric's account or some other Baha'i, let's not crucify
them just because of some unfortunate technical problem.
I suggest we wait and see what happens tonight when the rates
drop again. If the same sort of thing happens, then suggest
taking stronger action tomorrow.
In other words, if this incident occurred because of technical
error of some fellow Baha'i, I don't want him to suffer, just
because we had to. I hereby annul the notion of "an eye for an
eye" in this Dispensation!
Its most unfortunate that all hell is breaking loose when John
Walbridge is gone. Perhaps in the future he can delegate his
list owner responsibilities to someone else during his absence.
regards, ahang.
=END=
From: "RUTH E CLARK"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:36:51 EST
Subject:
subscribe talisman
=END=
From: burl.barer@wwwhbbs.com (Burl Barer)
Subject: aristocracy
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 20:37:00 GMT
To: talisman@indiana.edu
S>From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
S>The Hands and their subsidiary institutions are neither hereditary nor
>charged with interpreting the teachings, so there seems to be no
>reason for including them under aristocratic forms of government....
[deleted material -- fine fabric, but deleted none the less}]
>context in which Shoghi Effendi is placing it - has to be hereditary
>and has to have effective governmental power.
S>Shoghi Effendi is saying that elements of these three forms are
>found in the Baha'i order. He is not I think saying that all the
>elements of the Baha'i order can be placed in one of the three
>recognized forms. If we really must find a parallel in secular
>government for the Hands and Counsellors, I would say they are the
>diplomatic service. You can tell by the special number-plates,
Sen, Juan, and fellow Talismaniacs:
Shoghi Effendi does say that "elements" of these forms are found
in the Baha'i order. Juan posted that he didn't know what the Guardian
meant by aristocracy. This might be a good place to start. You have
stated that it "has to be hereditary". I am of the current view that
the elements of aristocracy intended by the Guardian have nothing to do
with heredity, that heredity is not a prerequisite, nor is "effective
governmental power."
The elements of aristocracy (rule by the best) are found in the
Institution of the Hands of the Cause, Counsellors, and ABMs because the
members are selected or appointed on the basis of talents, education,
spiritual qualities, etc. This conforms to the first definition of
aristocracy in the OED. Birth, heredity, and/or station are among the
options for selection, along with education, talent, wealth, etc. but
the term is not defined by that one optional criteria. It does not
matter if the selecting or appointing is done by a monarch, a despot, a
university professor, or a democratically elected body for the
aristocracy element to be both operational and recognizable. Perhaps I
am taking a very simple view of this, but perhaps that is the view
intended -- the OED gives as an example of aristocracy the appointing of
magistrates on the basis of education. It is an "element" of
aristocracy that we have an "appointed" branch -- individuals and
Institutions invested with effective spiritual power, rather than
effective legislative power, and appointed on the basis of certain
traits and qualities. In this light, I concur that the Counsellors and
ABMs share in the aristocracy of the Institution to which they belong.
So, perhaps we can agree that (1) The Institution of the Hands is neither
hereditary nor charged with interpretation of the Text, (2) The
Institution of the Hands does not fit into the common form of
aristocratic secular government, and (3) The Institution of the Hands
does contain an element of aristocracy, namely appointment based on
education, talent, or other outstanding qualities.
Now, as for oligarchy (rule by Oleg Casini) or
Bunker, Archy, (paternalis grouchis) I have no time
to dwell on those because I must go fold the laundry, dust, vacuum
(ether?) and prepare for another exciting LSA meeting.
So...what do I have to do to get a copy of Sen's video in ntsc so I can
see his brilliance in action? The Aqdas conference sounds as if it
would have made Wrestlemania XI pale in comparison..perhaps it should
have been a cable-tv pay-per-view. "Wow! What a suplex! Rampagin' Rob
Stockman just clotheslined Indigenous Chris Buck while Arhang the
Invincible slammed Terrible Terry into the crossbuckle!" When is the
re-match?
Love and knishes,
Burl
---
~ OLX 1.52 ~ Lets all throttle Aristotle.
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Pharisaic Self-righteousness
To: theos-l@vnet.net
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 15:04:15 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
This morning I found something in the Edgar Cayce readings that
describes, IMO, the fighting I've witnessed on theos-l,
Talisman, alt.religion.eckankar, soc.religion.bahai, and quite
a few other newsgroups:
It was given, "Except your righteousness exceed the
righteousness of the Pharisees, ye shall all likewise
perish."...What was the righteousness of the Pharisees, and
what was their sin? How were the disciples to discern between
the righteousness of the Pharisees and the righteousness as
presented by the Teacher?...The righteousness of the Pharisee
was that as indicated by the prayer offered in the temple; that
he thanked God he was not like other people. Here we find,
then, self-righteousness...who is to judge as to what is sin
and what is righteousness for the individual? As we remember,
as has oft been given, "Study to show *thyself* approved unto
God, a workman not ashamed." Here we find much that may need
analyzing, looking into, in our own individual experiences. Do
we, as children of God, as seekers after God, have firsthand
knowledge? or do we accept only that others have told us? Do
we condemn any? Do we know, or is it only self-righteousness
that speaks?
Pharisaic self-righteousness, henceforth to be referred to as
PRS, is a nearly universal element in disputes among
Theosophists, Baha'is, Eckists and ex-Eckists, and various
other disputants I've observed on the Internet. The bottom
line message is always "thank God I'm not like you/them"
although it takes myriad forms:
1. Thank God I'm a believer in the Sylvia Cranston version of
Blavatsky and thus on the side of the White Lodge, and not like
those who give credence to alternative views of Blavatsky
inspired by the Brothers of the Shadow.
2. Thank God I'm a true believing Baha'i who never questions
authority, and not like those who teeter on the brink of
becoming Covenant-breakers.
3. Thank God I'm an Eckist who has genuine spiritual
experiences with the Masters, not like those envious
unbelievers who are incapable of any spiritual experience
whatsoever.
4. Thank God I had enough sense to see that Eckankar is a
fraud, not like you dummies who just don't get it.
5. Thank God I'm a liberal Baha'i who understands something
about human rights and scholarly discourse, not like you
fundamentalist anti-intellectuals.
6. Thank God I'm a progressive Theosophist who welcomes new
ways of thinking about Blavatsky, not like those fanatics who
attribute any new idea to occult "opposing forces".
And so it goes. Can we all say in unison, "Thank God we're not
all alike" and leave it at that? Guess not. When I look at
the world of spiritual movements in light of the injunction to
overcome Pharisaic self-righteousness, things look pretty
bleak. Not only can I think of dozens of instances it's been
meted out to me by one Pharisee or another (sometimes in the
scholarly form of "Thank God, if I wrote a book about HPB it wouldn't
have any of the contemptible scholarly lapses yours do"). I
can also admit that I have doled it out in liberal measure.
But what Edgar and Jesus seem to be saying is "you cannot
advance a single step on the real spiritual path until you get
past Pharisaic self-righteousness." Interestingly, of all the
spiritual teachings I've encountered, Cayce's is the only one
that seems totally devoid of PSR.
A New Year's resolution, then, based on this passage from the
readings: when confronted with PSR in a post or in person, I
will try to: a)recognize that PSR is the commodity being
delivered, b)ignore it if possible and respond to any or all other elements
of the communication c)at times give a comment as to the
intensity of PSR displayed, but d)not reciprocate by giving an
even larger dose of PSR in return.
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 12:56:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 6
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Given the evident interest in this thread, let's say a few more
words about ZH-3.
As you may recall, for the ease of discussion, we divided the
contents of ZH-3 in seven catagories of information, with the
first being the Writings of the Bab quoted in the text. A brief
(and inadquate) lising of these were shared in previous postings.
I like now to focuse on the second category, namely, references
to the Writings of the Bab. Note that for these, the actual Text
of the Writings if not given in ZH-3, but only the title referred
to. This tabulation will be of use to those engaged in
assembling a complete set of His Writings.
I should point out that a number of these Works are missing from
Denis MacEoin's "Sources for Early Babi Doctrine and History"
which is rather peculiar! Draw your own conclusions.
Also, I like to share the exciting news of the publication of a
1,100 page book on the Writings of the Bab and certain aspects of
the Babi history by Nusratu'llah Muhammad-Husayni -- a student of
Fadil-i Mazandarani. Its published by the Canadian Persian
Institute for Baha'i Studies and will be available starting next
week.
Now back to list of Writings of the Bab referred to in ZH-3. As
always, corrections will be gratefully welcomed.
P1: Tablet to Prince Bahman Mirzay-i Qajar
P10: Tablet addressed to the divines of Tabriz
P27: Tablets in response to Mirza Muhammad-Ali, surnamed Anis
P27-8: Tablet addressed to one of the divines of Tabriz
P38: The nine commentaries on the whole of Qur'an revealed at
Mah-Ku (currently not available)
P39: Tablets address to Aqa Siyyid Ibrahim Tabrizi, surnamed
Khalil
P41: Tablets addressed to Haji Muhammad-Taqi Milani
P47: Tablets addressed and in response to Mulla Jalil Urumiyyih,
one of the Letters
P50: Tablet in response to the 3 questions of Siyyid Murtiza
(Qazvini ?)
P53: "many" Tablets addressed to Mulla Ahmad-i Abdal-i
Maraghi'ih, one of the Letters
P56: Tablet of Visitation for Imam Husayn
P57: a prayer known as "dua'y tavvasul"
P59: Tablets addressed to Quddus
P65: Tablets in response to Mirza Assadu'llah Dayyan
P65: Treatise of the Letters, revealed in honor of Dayyan
P69: Revelation of the Persian and Arabic Bayans at Mah-Ku
P70: a Tablet where the call of Qa'imiyyat has been raised.
(Text is given in ZH-2.)
P73: Treatise of the Seven Proof (Dala'il-i Sab`ih)
P73: The Morning Prayer, revealed at the request of Aqa Siyyid
Abu'l-Hasan Zunuzi
P75: Tablet addressed to Haji Sulyman-Khan-i Afshar
P82: Tablets addressed to Haji Mirza Aqasi (Text appears in
ZH-2)
P89: Risalih Tafsir-i Sura Val-Asr (revealed for Aqa Siyyid
Muhammad Sultanu'l-Ulama, Imam Jum'ih of Isfahan)
P89: Risalih fi'l Nabuvvatih Khassih (Treatise on the Specific
Prophethood), Revealed the request of Manuchehr Khan.
(P96: Translation of Risalih Sahifih `Adli'ih (Treatise on
Justice) from Arabic to Persian by Mulla Muhammad-Taqi
Shahihrhurudi)
(to be continued)
=END=
From: mfoster@tyrell.net
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:29:06 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Various Subjects
Talismanians -
Since I sent these two messages to the list in the wake of Faust's
love-bombing , I have combined them into one message and am
forwarding them back. I wanted to make sure that Dave Taylor sees
this message, and I know that the America Online mailer has only
a limited capacity for messages.
- Mark
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Dave and other Talismanians -
Thanks for your note, Dave. (BTW, did you all get bombed with all
those old messages from Talisman, Noble Creation, Baha'i Intuition,
Baha'i Tech, etc.? I counted 450,000 bytes in about 90 minutes! Yet,
without that, I might not have received Dave Taylor's message, which
was apparently lost during one of my server's recent crashes. So I
must, at least on that account, be grateful to this individual.)
I agree with you regarding the social constructedness of sexual
to identity. Irrespective of whether there are any biological correlates
to homosexuality (and I rather suspect there are), the key is how human
sexuality is defined within the context of revealed truths. Obviously,
it is a complex subject and one which, I think, will only be understood
gradually.
From my POV, sex, on the animal level, *is* love. Like all things
physical, one's sexuality, as I think the Kashmir Shaivites understand
it, can be either a source of frustration and possible debasement or a
vehicle for spiritual transformation. In the dance of Shakti and Shiva
is a demonstration of the divine metaphysic of unity in diversity.
Femininity and masculinity, rather than viewed as distinct and separate
units, can be seen, in contemporary terms, as a holographic image. The
point of light is one, and the appearance of spatial patterns (diversity)
is merely an emanation or impression of that unity of light.
In what could, perhaps, be called a Baha'i "tantra," all things have
certain ideal relationships. Conformity to the gestalt (configuration)
leads to the expression of beauty (the emanation of the Ancient Beauty)
in the kingdoms of creation. The key for discovering the divine pattern
lies in the Prophetic Teachings (the inner mysteries of "the words He
hath revealed"). That, to me, is the challenge. Our present-day world
order is so remote from this ideal that the gestalt itself, the tantra,
has near totally been disrupted. Yet, rather than focusing *primarily* on
ameliorating the misconnections in the reality of outward appearances, I
would rather examine the inner dynamic which generates the externals and
attempt to work with it.
IMHO, gaia and all life on it express a tantric imbalance. What we call
homosexuality is only one small dimension of it. But rather than condemning
the generalized condition of dis-ease which affects each one of us, perhaps
we could instead examine the spiritual animus which is responsible for our
present state of self-addiction. What virtues do I choose to link with,
and how can my moral community, my 'umma, realize one of its primary
functions as a cultivator of spiritual qualities?
Second subject:
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what is being intended by the term
"back to Baha'u'llah." However, it is my understanding that by linking
with the Covenant (including the Master, the Guardian, and the Universal
House of Justice), we are, by definition, going back to Baha'u'llah. Why
is it necessary to make distinctions? Can't we just see these various
persons and institutions as forming a spiritual gestalt, and that by
turning to the Master, the Guardian, or the House, with the proper
perspective, we are, in reality, going back to Baha'u'llah anyway?
Warm regards to all,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*1995 President, Kansas Sociological Society Co-Moderator, Baha'i Announce *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: Donald Zhang Osborn
Cc: "Talisman@Indiana.edu"
Subject: RE: Genes/Homosexuality/Homophilia/Discovery!
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:49:16 -0800
Not to be overly pedantic about this , but:
A much-publicized recent study concludes: "the volume of the central
subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a brain area
that is essential for sexual behavior, is larger in men than in women. A
female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the
BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of
sexual orientation." [the study shows] "a female brain structure in
genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender
identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain
and sex hormones." It goes on to say "the size of the BSTc of heterosexual
men and homosexual men did not differ."
Interested persons can find this study which was done at the Graduate School
Neurosciences Amsterdam, Netherlands Institute for Brain Research, in
Nature, Vol. 378, 2 November 1995, pp. 68-70 with a related article titled
"Another important organ" <>
on p. 15 of the same issue.
Your co-worker, Hannah (happy at last)
----------
From: Donald Zhang Osborn[SMTP:osborndo@pilot.msu.edu]
Sent: Thursday, 14 December, 1995 11:40 AM
To: snoopy@skipper.physics.sunysb.edu
Cc: Talisman@Indiana.edu
Subject: Genes/Homosexuality/Homophilia/Discovery!
..............Fourth, let's assume for a moment that a team of doctors
makes a
breakthrough discovery: they have found the gene that "causes" homosexual
attraction in ~90% of cases. Furthermore, it operates by effecting hormonal
balance at a critical stage in a child's development (one manifestation of
this being the size of the hypothalamus). ..................
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 15:08:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Paul Easton
To: belove@sover.net, faust@exnet.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Out damned faust
I have received over 400 old Talisman messages from fauset@eznet.com. As
Much as I love reading Talisman, I have no interest in rereading all
messages from the past week.
If this continues I will send several tens of thousands of pages of
useless texts to faust@eznet.com and unsubscribe from Talisman. This has
been a major headache.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Paul C. Easton
_____________________________________________________________________________
HOME || WORK
________________________________________||___________________________________
2321 Jersey Street || UW-Stevens Point
Stevens Point, WI 54481 || International Programs
|| Stevens Point, WI 54481-3897
PHONE: (715) 344-4174 || PHONE: (715) 346-2717
E-MAIL: peaston@worf.uwsp.edu || FAX: (715) 346-3591
________________________________________||___________________________________
O Lord! make us firm in Thy love and cause us to be loving toward the
whole of mankind. Confirm us in service to the world of humanity, so
that we may become the servants of Thy servants, that we may love all Thy
creatures and become compassionate to all Thy people. -`Abdu'l-Baha'
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: Re: America's Spritual Destiny
To: gpoirier@acca.nmsu.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:10:33 MST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca, Alethinos@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
On Wed, 27 Dec 1995 Brent wrote in part:
> I think the Master refers, in His Tablets of the Divine Plan, to the
> indigenous peoples of America. Since these Tablets were addressed to the
> USA and Canada, obviously both countries are included as the recipients
> of this mission and this responsibility.
Perhaps a trivial point here Brent. Although the Tablets were addressed to
the Baha'is in Canada and United States, in actual fact, four countries
were addressed: United States, Canada, Newfoundland, and Greenland.
These four have now consolidated into three, as Newfoundland joined the
Canadian confederation in 1949. Don't tell the Greenlandic Baha'is that
they are not mandated in the Divine Plan. :-)
Tangentially, the German Baha'is are also exhorted to carry out the teaching
work. Sorry, I don't have this in my head, but it is probably in one of the
first three collective Tablets.
And finally, I believe only four peoples are mentioned and two of them are
given special attention. Mention is made of the Black republic in the
Carribbean and the French Catholics [in Quebec]. However, the indigeous
peoples are given special attention in the first collective Tablet, and before
that the Inuit are singled out in the first regional Tablet addressed to
Canada (April 5, 1916).
Loving regards, stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:26:40 +1300 (NZDT)
To: "K. Paul Johnson" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Pharisaic Self-righteousness
Dear Paul,
I liked your letter. The hardest thing is to not get spun off
one's inevitably sane and moderate and thoughtful ;-} axis by the PSR dude,
and I think your resolutions are useful tools for not only yourself ;-}
In psychoanalytic thought -- of course -- "the other" is always something
in "me/us".
Whateverwhatever..
Robert.
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Pharisaic Self-righteousness
To: Robert Johnston
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 17:09:33 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to Robert Johnston:
>
>
> Dear Paul,
> I liked your letter. The hardest thing is to not get spun off
> one's inevitably sane and moderate and thoughtful ;-} axis by the PSR dude,
> and I think your resolutions are useful tools for not only yourself ;-}
>
> In psychoanalytic thought -- of course -- "the other" is always something
> in "me/us".
Thanks, Robert, and apologies for using you as an example
yesterday.
Two mysteries about that "other"--
why does PSR in another resonate at a frequency that
immediately sets it off in us too? (e.g. why is it a
contagious spiritual disease)
why is other people's PSR often toxic to us, but our own is
intoxicating?
Food for thought
PJ
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 11:16:37 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu, anon@anon.penet.fi
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: ?
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 15:05:24 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Faust : Sherman's statement .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Sherman wishes it to be known that Faust is no doubt a nut-crazed
follower of Wild Pete the Bosch Squirrel bent on World Domination .
Sherman assures us all if Faust Strikes again he will considor sending
the Mighty Bobo his sidekick aka "The Shadow " to protect us all . I am
personally relieved our beloved leader is going to protect us . Of
course the feline anger at Faust has nothing to do with the slow
delivery of milk due to Sherman's Scribe deleting rather than providing
the liquid refreshment .
Kindest Regards
Deek Cockshut.
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Hastening Lesser Peace
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 17:00:23 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians,
Jim asked myself and others for our views on how we might hasten the
Lesser Peace. IMHO, the Major Plan of God, a synthesis of the twin
processes of *integration* and *disintegration,* is in the hands of God.
It is primarily the business of the Baha'i world community to promote
the purely *integrative* Minor Plan of God, leading to the Most Great
Peace. This aspect of the process of integration will gradually breathe
the spirit of faith into the body of humanity at a time when it will,
through the tribulations which will have lead to the establishment of
the Lesser Peace, be united only externally.
As I see it, the impetus for the Lesser Peace will be fear. But for
the Most Great Peace, it will be the love of God. Coming out of the
metaphorical battle of Armageddon, beginning with the first World War,
humanity will be unified through a fear of further suffering. However,
judging from history, fear is but a temporary salve. Within a short
time, all is forgotten, and people try to return to their habitual
inclinations. From my POV, it is the love of God, generated through a
process of mass conversion and the spiritualization of humanity, which
will become the stabilizing factor in world peace and which will
gradually lead humanity toward the Golden Age.
As to what we can do to hasten the Lesser Peace: There is a link
between activities within the Baha'i world and without it. By following
the directives of the Universal House of Justice, the voice of God on
earth, we will teach the message of Baha'u'llah to all the waiting
hearts and initiate programs which, gradually, will link the work of the
Baha'i community with the world of human affairs (the human kingdom) as
a whole. Implicit obedience to the inspired Will of God (the Covenant),
as it is channeled through the plans and decisions of the Supreme Body,
will also lessen the suffering which humanity is bound to increasingly
suffer in one way or another.
Bright blessings to all,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*1995 President, Kansas Sociological Society Co-Moderator, Baha'i Announce *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Hastening Lesser Peace
To: mfoster@tyrell.net (Mark A. Foster)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 18:08:15 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Mark writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^
Jim asked myself and others for our views on how we might hasten the
Lesser Peace. IMHO, the Major Plan of God, a synthesis of the twin
processes of *integration* and *disintegration,* is in the hands of God.
It is primarily the business of the Baha'i world community to promote
the purely *integrative* Minor Plan of God, leading to the Most Great
Peace. This aspect of the process of integration will gradually breathe
the spirit of faith into the body of humanity at a time when it will,
through the tribulations which will have lead to the establishment of
the Lesser Peace, be united only externally.
___________
RESPONSE
Mark, I think we need to start with the Guardian's statement
first. My understanding of it points to an intersection between the Major
and Minor Plans of God, in which the Baha'is CAN act as agents of
transformation in BOTH Plans! (Jim, can you please post this quote?)
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Hastening Lesser Peace
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 17:28:05 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Gee, Chris, that was quick! I just uploaded that message .
You wrote:
C >Mark, I think we need to start with the Guardian's statement first.
C >My understanding of it points to an intersection between the Major
C >and Minor Plans of God, in which the Baha'is CAN act as agents of
C >transformation in BOTH Plans!
I agree. I tried to get that point across when I referred to the
increasing interaction between "the work of the Baha'i world community
and the world of human affairs (the human kingdom) as a whole." IMHO, it
is our work in obedience to the Universal House of Justice (the Minor
Plan of God) which will also have a corresponding effect on the Major
Plan of God. Also, in a sense, as I see it, the Minor Plan of God is
really a part of God's Major Plan. The ever-greater involvement of the
Baha'i community in global issues will gradually link the Baha'i world
with the world in general.
Warm regards to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*1995 President, Kansas Sociological Society Co-Moderator, Baha'i Announce *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: All Moments Become A Mountain
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 18:51:06 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
ALL MOMENTS BECOME A MOUNTAIN
All moments become a mountain
That stands for a dream in the eye
When I step boldly into the sun.
This is the end of the end of our life
To become a presence kept deep in our eyes.
O Prophet of the Orient, O Sage, O Sun
Rising as a crown over Mount Rainier
To cast all shadows behind our backs,
I seem to be lifted to a vision of wonder
Gathered in tangles from under the skin. To be kin
To the pulse of the world, to the urge and rhythm of being,
I am more, when I am less.
The wind whispers of all that is there
from without. I tell the wind what is here within.
Were it not for each other we could not exist
Where we are lost, in the maze of a rising rose, afire!
I am composed of a lingering thought
That beams from the cranium-moon, slicing
Night with slivers of cat's eyes, seahorse shadows
of joy in a dance. I dream like a beast, of beasts with wings.
Our blood alters all things it must touch.
How else shall the night leap from a ledge?
Our courage is borne by the wind
As shadows spring from underneath leaves, into our feet!
All of my life the earth demands
I spin a golden thread from my silver shadow
And become a rock or pillar of ages, wind
That leaps forth to sweep over earth.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 14:06:53 +0700
To: "K. Paul Johnson" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Pharisaic Self-righteousness
Dear Paul,
Re:
>
>Two mysteries about that "other"--
>why does PSR in another resonate at a frequency that
>immediately sets it off in us too? (e.g. why is it a
>contagious spiritual disease)
>why is other people's PSR often toxic to us, but our own is
>intoxicating?
Food for thought indeed. Thoughts...
(1) PSR-dude is excessive. Are we making a case for "moderate" discourse?
(2) Remember when the Chinese used to call the Americans capitalist pigs
and imperialist dogs, and the Americans used to write of the yellow peril?
Both adopted PSR positions. Could it be that each NEEDED something from
the other or needed something like that which the other had, but didn't
really know how to key into the appropriate way of stating this or going
about getting that which they wanted...?
(3) Is it possible that it is about giving and taking? A rich man will get
angry with an angry poor man because he (the rich man) hasn't learned about
giving...perhaps. Just as the poor man will get angry with a rich man
because he (the poor man) hasn't learned about receiving... But who is
rich and who is poor?
(4) A fight can't occur if "you're" not in "my" neighbourhood. Does the
fact that we share a neighbourhood mean that we have something for each
other...? Perhaps we should both go to different new neighbourhoods... ;-}
Or perhaps...oh I dunno... Anyway...if we're both on our way to
paradise...will my perverse self love (intoxication) be reflected in what I
perceive as darkness (toxicity) in you ...? If I've got my act together,
I'm nore inclined towards inclusion...d'you think..?
Best,
Robert.
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 18:02:42 -0800
To: Saman Ahmadi , talisman
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Talisman united?!!
My question is how did he grab messages I sent to Bahai Tech, and my friend
David on Spokane Area Bahai network about his mother and sent them to
Talisman????
Spokane Area Bahai has the same address (eznet.com) as faust does....
(Spokane is a city across the state of Washington) Go figure!!!
Margreet
At 12:54 PM 12/28/95 -0600, Saman Ahmadi wrote:
>
>Dear everyone,
>
>I would like to personally thank "faust" for bringing us
>all together ;-)
>
>take care,
>sAmAn
>
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 22:15:09 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Spiritual Destiny
Dear All ,
A couple of quick responses to Ahang , Jim , and Phillip . More later
after I recover from Faust .
If Ahang is a peasant then I really am in trouble . Gosh a fellow
with a Phd raised in an urban area , fluent in more than one language ; gives
a whole new meaning to the word peasant . Then there is me , dont have a Phd
, speak only one language and was raised in a rural area from a family of
dairy farmers. Yikes !
As for hastening the Lesser Peace and Spiritual Destiny allow me to
quote from a recent publication from my favorite "infallible" body. That
being the Universal House of Justce on their May 19 1994 letter.
" . . Your commmunity's past has ben glorious ; its future great
beyond calculation. The Divine promises to your community are certain ; the
blessings of Bahau llah are assured as you strive to fulfill His purpose. The
wings of the beloved Master remain spread over you that you may succeed in
discharging the taske he has especially entrusted to your care. . . . The
Bahai community bears grave responsibilities toward the near and far future
as movement towards the Lesser Peace accelerates. . . Will the American
Bahai Community not see its chance to meet the challenge? Will its members
not once again blaze a trail that can set in motion a myriad victories ? "
As this is from the Head of the Faith, and as it refers to now, I submit
the destiny still awaits us ... Oh yes and the American Bahai Community by
definition includes some 12-14 thousand believers of Persian origin.
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 19:48 PST
To: Dave10018@aol.com
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Favorite Quote
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Dave said:
Here's a favorite quote: "In a post-traumatic epiphany reserved for the
mystic and the head-injured, he had broken the bonds and snapped the trap."
MO,p.25
Bravo to Dave for being the first and only human ever to quote MAN OVERBOARD
on Talisman. Obviously a new standard of scholarly reference, equal almost
to quoting Sherman, has emerged.
I am off to cause trouble in the playground of the stars...
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Burl on Oprah Winfrey?
To: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 23:11:06 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Welcome back, Burl! There's a rumor you're going to be on Oprah
Winfrey on Jan. 14th. Is that true? And have you sold movie rights to *Man
Overboard*?
I just read Chapter Eleven of *Man Overboard* to my wife last
night (her bedtime story!) About Raul, his very spiritual sister, and the
100 ft. whaler at Grand Cayman. I love the dour Norwegian captain, and I
quote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Phil watched the ship's captain pour himself another cup of thick,
black coffee.
"We have a saying in Norway," said the captain with the most dour
of expressions, "it doesn't take a lot of water to make a good cup of
coffee."
It looked more like wet tar than fresh java.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*Welcome to Crime on the High Seas!*
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 22:57:34 PST
Subject: Let's teach the b*&#! a lesson
To: talisman@indiana.edu, 748-9178@mcimail.com
Comforting as it is to know I am not in the company of saints, I do
note how many revenge plans were hatched in the wake of the Faust
blitz.
It eases the pressure on me because there is a Bahai person, whom I
wish ill and It's always bothered my how difficult it is for me to
forgive.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 12/28/95
Time: 22:57:34
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 19:55 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Your Boyfriend's Back
So, I call the ever affable Linda and whimper on the phone like a wounded
rabbit, begging her to tell her Midwesternly Conjested Husband to
temporarily unsubscribe me while I run off to Palm Springs to be famous on
the 6 oclock news/11 oclock news so I will not have 898 messages waiting for
me when I come home. Guess what -- 898 messages waiting for me! (of course,
half of them were from Satan)
Last time I give LW a chance to win a 6pack of Bud and an all expense paid
trip to Atlantic City, the Gambling Capitol of New Jersey!
I sent a couple two week old messages out -- better late than never. I can
hardly wait to wade through 898 messages ...
GOOD NEWS: While unplugged from Talisman, I actually completed
CAPTURE THE SAINT, my new action/adventure novel in which I not only sneak
in a quote from Baha'u'llah, but get in the name of a Hand of the
Cause...we'll see if it passes by the editor.
More later..
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 23:32:15 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: from the List Owner
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Folks, I am now back to the usual chaos.
1) I am trying to deal with the Faust affair. I have dropped for the
moment the two likely culprits. Please don't bombard the postmaster of
the offending system, who had nothing to do with it.
john walbridge
list owner
=END=
[end of 12/28/95 session]
Talisman emails received 12/29/95
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 23:20 PST
To: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Burl on Oprah Winfrey?
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
> Welcome back, Burl! There's a rumor you're going to be on Oprah
>Winfrey on Jan. 14th. Is that true?
No, it is a rumour started by Linda who is going to be on Rikki Lake that
date. The topic is "Is that a Shi'ite in your Taxi or are you just happy to
see me?" -- Linda will be the one dressed as a woman just to confuse viewers
who expect anyone on Rikki Lake thus attired to be a former male wrestling
champion -- but then again, I'm sure Linda has wrestled her fair share.
And have you sold movie rights to *Man
>Overboard*?
Have yet to see an offer or sign on a line. The targeted producer has the
film treatment, book, clippings, and a small shrubbery (not too expensive)
with him in Aspen for the Holidays. Confirmation dependent upon pelting the
Lord with prayers -- please pelt with abandon
> "We have a saying in Norway," said the captain with the most dour
>of expressions, "it doesn't take a lot of water to make a good cup of
>coffee."
That is a true Norwegian expression, at least in Britt's family. This
dialog is a complete fabrication on my part. But it is OK. I have my
literary license right here.
I have had not had time to read the 895 Talisman messages downloaded today
-- dear Dorothy Hayes is on the verge of leaving for the Abha Kingdom and I
have been at her bedside reading prayers into her ear and telling her some
of those "exaggerated Third World victory stories" I heard about on
Talisman. (gee I sound like some hippie/yuppie Florence Nightengale -- I'm
liable to end up on Rikki Lake myself!). Bless her heart, she (Dorothy
Hayes) loves the Faith with such intensity -- she may not know what planet
she is on, but she knows the Lord of the Universe.
Burl
>
>
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 23:38:28 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Burl on Oprah Winfrey?
At 11:20 PM 12/28/95 PST, Burl Barer wrote:
>>
>
>> "We have a saying in Norway," said the captain with the most dour
>>of expressions, "it doesn't take a lot of water to make a good cup of
>>coffee."
Sounds like the start of Espresso to me....
> That is a true Norwegian expression, at least in Britt's family. This
>dialog is a complete fabrication on my part. But it is OK. I have my
>literary license right here.
>
>I have had not had time to read the 895 Talisman messages downloaded today
>-- dear Dorothy Hayes is on the verge of leaving for the Abha Kingdom and I
>have been at her bedside reading prayers into her ear and telling her some
>of those "exaggerated Third World victory stories" I heard about on
>Talisman. (gee I sound like some hippie/yuppie Florence Nightengale -- I'm
>liable to end up on Rikki Lake myself!). Bless her heart, she (Dorothy
>Hayes) loves the Faith with such intensity -- she may not know what planet
>she is on, but she knows the Lord of the Universe.
>
>Burl
>
Prayers for Dorothy.. from this side of the Mountains...Say another book??
Call it Talis-antics...
>>
>>
>
>*******************************************************
> Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
>*******************************************************
I Read the book... Only 2 copies left in Seattle...
Margreet
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 23:52:10 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Linda In Washington DC . Donna Katich update
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians .
Now that my dear Friend Burl has returned I shall be posting Linda in
DC part two on Monday January 1st . Due to worrying about Donna Katich
and teaching the new course I have had no time and I wanted Linda to to
be able to read of her exploits .
Donna by the way has come out of her semi-coma and is starting to talk
we are all very relieved prayers are still needed .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 02:50:18 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Aborted Attempts ( "Jettison the Warp Core Jordi!")
This is just one small example. It is condensed obviously because the events
span several years.
This was during the "halcyon" days of the Youth Movement back in the early
to mid-80s. I was on one of the now obscure but at one time highly praised
and then infamous Regional Youth Committees. Actually I was on RYC 9.
Northwest United States - huge territory really. We, the eight of us were
always travelling. And, inspired by Counsellors Arbab and Schecter we worked
hard at establishing the first phase of the Youth Movement. And we did a
great job. We had built up, through various means unique to the Faith here in
this country a soild core of dedicated near fanatical youth - well deepened,
responsible and willing to lay it on the line. They numbered at the peak
about sixty. That doesn't sound like much but this sixty seemed like
hundreds. They would travel anywhere, anytime, to assist. Inner city
programs. To the reservations - hundreds of miles away, simply to be there to
serve a community Unity Dinner. Then they'd pile back in to the vans and go
back home to face midterms on monday.
And surrounding this *core* were perhaps another hundred youth that were
being drawn ever closer to the center. Later on in the Movement some of our
greatest youth came in from the fringe as we use to say.
We felt we had reached a point where we were ready to take the big next step.
National kept pointing us out to all the other RYCs as a role model. We were
the best. So why not step up to the next level huh?!
The problem of course was that no one, in this country, had ever done *the
next level*. It would mean becoming directly involved in the larger community
- in America. It would mean drawing in many, many new youth - most of whom
would be drawn to what we were doing but would not be ready to accept
Baha'u'llah. That was fine we felt. People can join us, helping us help
others, stand in the face of injustices and bring the healing and energizing
message of the Faith without having to make that big personal step. After all
that was their concern.
WE invited Counsellor Schecter to meet with us. It was a hard meeting because
we were looking for guidance from one of our mentors. We asked essentially
where do we go from here? We threw out ideas. And he was quiet. We thought he
was disappointed. He said he wasn't. "What do we DO!?" We pleaded. Finally
he shrugged (something he does very well) and said "I don't know; nobody
knows. But just do it. If you screw up we'll be the first to tell you."
Wow. An open mandate. So we began to think about what we could do next. And
we excitedly told National.
And that was the beginning of the end.
I had been personally warned by a dear friend who served on the National
Youth Committee when it was located in Florida that the *transferring* of the
NYC to Wilmette would spell the end of the Youth Movement. "It will go
corporate Jim," they had said. "when you step into the office there and see
them wearing ties you will know it is all over."
Before we were able to begin implementing our next plans we were told to hold
off. There were going to be a series of *big* conferences in early Spring
(1987). The NYC was very eager to consult with us about our new ideas. We had
been pleading for several months after the Counsellor's visit that we should
all (all the RYCs and National - perhaps the Counsellors) get together and
see what was thought of some of these ideas we had cooked up. We held off and
held off starting them. A lot of the youth were getting anxious. MAny of the
*best and brightest* had been considering going on Youth Year of Service like
some of their older role models had, (we had sent, according to the NYC more
youth on YYS then any other region in the country.)
Finally the big conference was called for our area. We had a gathering of
well over one hundred youth - most were *veterans* of several years of
service. The entire RYC was there. The NYC sent one of its members. There had
been many new faces that had come on to the NYC in the short time that it had
been in Wilmette.
The youth were already to hear what the next phase should be. We on the RYC
were also. It never came. When the RYC met priv. with the NYC rep. we were
given, with the perkiness that one can only see behind a perfume counter at a
large department store, our new mandate. No consultation. No listening to
ideas. The new mandate. The NYC wanted us to stress for the foreseeable
future the importance of prayer and reading the Writings.
That was it. We were dumbfounded. What about the Youth Movement?!? "Well we
still have that!" the rep said. "But what OF it?!" we asked. The rep
responded that it was felt this was now the best course. Supposedly some of
the other RYCs had gotten a bit "out of hand". There was fear that such
behavior could cause problems.
Half the RYC walked out of the room. They all resigned right there. All left
the country within months. Those of us that couldn't leave (as we were the
hosts) were numb. When this was presented to the general conference the
reaction on one youth summed it all up - she stood up and asked, with all due
respect, and said, "This is a joke right? Do you have any idea what we have
done here these past three years?! What we have sacrificed! Now what is the
real plan!?" At that point the poor rep started crying. Not a pretty
picture.
We all resigned soon after. I tried to have our ideas presented to Counsellor
Arbab who was in Canada. The NYC promised to convey our paper. When they
reported back I was told that he never commented on it, except to say "no
this will not do."
When the NYC tried to reform another RYC a few months later that RYC resigned
within a few months.
I knew most of the members of the other RYCs around the country. We were a
tightknit bunch. We had all been at London together. I never heard about
problems of discipline. There was resistence to ideas and some projects - but
there was no out-and-out rebellion. In all the years since I have never heard
of anything that would have caused the RYCs to be closed out.
The Youth Movement died by early 1988. One day you picked up and American
Baha'i and there simply was not a mention of it anywhere. Never happened.
It was a success in a number of ways. We sent out hundreds of dedicated youth
around the world. And we strengthened many youth; helped many communities. I
remember not to long ago being on a reservation. The chairman of the Baha'i
community wept openly at a public meeting in mentioning the youth who came as
strangers and who didn't just come once or twice but came regularly, every
six to eight weeks for three years. Not one or two but twenty or more. they
literally helped remodel and pay for a Baha'i Center (the last project to pay
it off was done by perhaps fifteen youth and netted something close to
$10,000.)
But in the "one remaining field" as the Guardian said, the Movement failed.
This is just once instance where I have personally witnessed a movement, a
beginning crushed. I am sorry that this is so long, but I felt that a little
bit of this story had to be told.
I know all about being silenced. I know exactly how Juan and Linda and others
feel. And I was very, very bitter. And I wanted to quit. But not long after
all that happened is when Counsellor Enello *popped* by. And that is when he
told this group of frustrated angry youth that until the Americans truly
understood the Guardian, lived, ate and breathed his vision for America we
would always be faced with failure. Words echoed five years later as David
Hoffman passed through the Northwest.
That hope of being able to make this vision happen is the only thing that has
kept me going at times. I have seen so many of my friends from that time fade
away. My bitterness changed when I realized that what had happened to us was
another symptom. And if we don;t deal with the disease it will simply get
worse.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 02:50:10 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Spiritual Destiny
I thought Terry's posting of the quote from the Universal House of Justice
was right to the point. I also let Christopher Buck know that I have been
looking for that quote regarding the minor and major Plans of God and how the
Baha'is could actually assist in the unfoldment of the Lesser Peace. For the
life of me (of course now!) I can't find it.
But I feel that so many of the references to what the Baha'is in America need
to do can be viewed in light of assisting in the establishment of the Lesser
Peace. The only quotes that deliniate the role of the Baha'is in that matter
simply state that we will not play a direct role in its establishment - and I
take this to infer that it is in many respects a technical (political)
process. So of course we will have no role to play there. But as to the
influence we can bring to bear . . . in reshaping the hearts and minds of
people, that is a whole different matter. That influence, though *indirect*
could have a profound effect on the overall process. I can't see, really how
it could not.
The world will get to the Lesser Peace one way or the other. It would be much
better if it got a helping hand from us. There are so many references to
exactly this type of action - in virtually every Ridvan message for the past
decade or more we see this theme repeated. As the Faith grows in stature it
is increasingly called upon to lend its insights into the difficult social
problems confronting mankind. Asimply stroll through *A Wider Horizon:
Selected Messages from the Universal House of Justice 1983-1992* will suffice
to prove this.
The quote given to us by Terry though points at something more urgent. It is
the same urgency that the Guardian expressed in attempting to get the Baha'is
in this country to arise here - on the homefront - and when the most
difficult victory. It is something not accomplished. It really hasn't even
begun. I personally have seen many attempts to get it going. All that I
witnessed were shutdown in various ways. Too scary. Too unwieldy. Not a nice,
clean package.
I will share a personal reflection on this next.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 03:17:34 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Re: Nothing special about America! (oh yea!) and other stuff.
Ahang writes . . .
I mean only to clarify the issue of America's spiritual destiny,
which I maintain is already fulfilled and there is nothing in the writings
which distinguishes the *current* task of this country from the rest of the
nations.
First, its not clear what is meant by "America". Do we mean the continental
United States (48 contagious States), or the entire United States (Alaska
and Hawaii too), or US and Canada, or the
entire continent of the Americas. I think as we read these various quotes
from the Guardian, it would be useful to ask which of these land masses is
he referring to because it seems different pieces are meant at different
times. So, I am going to leave this as an issue that must be dealt with.
So, I'm still not clear (nor convinced) that there is any special destiny
for this nation to fulfill between Ridvan 1963 and the time of the Golden Age.
Gord replies (with apologies to those anti-psychobabble folks)
It's been my understanding that the Tablets of the Divine Plan
"Revealed by Abdu'l Baha to the North American Baha'is during 1916 and 1917"
speak of the "Spiritual Destiny" of "North America" generally. The last
tablet is addressed "To the belivers of God and the maid-servants of the
Merciful in the Dominion of Canada" naming all the provinces and the Yukon,
as well as Newfoundland, (not a province at the time), Mackenzie, Keewatin,
Ungava, Franklin Islands and Greenland, (which has as yet not shown a great
interest in joining the Canadian confederation).
Regarding the question of whether or not "America's Destiny" has
already been fulfilled - good grief! I hope not or I've really missed the
boat. In this Tablet Abdu'l Baha says that "from the IDEAL standpoint
(interesting choice of words here) there is no variation between the
creatures of God" and that "there is no difference between the various
countries; NEVERTHELESS, the future of the Dominion of Canada is very great,
and its historical events infinitely glorious." Later he says "again I
repeat, that the future of Canada, whether from the standpoint of
civilization or from the viewpoint of the virtues of the Kingdom, is very
great."
Generally speaking, we Canadians are not accustomed to thinking of
our historical events as "infinitely glorious". But even taking into
account our national pastime of belittling our accomplishments it is indeed
hard to imagine how those "infinitely glorious historical events" have come
to pass without our notice. I'm inclined to think that those events still
lay ahead of us. On the other hand, perhaps we just don't know what's
"infinitely glorious" and what aint. I guess that's a distinct possibility.
It should be noted, of course, that this passage is immediately
followed by; "Consequently, rest ye not, seek no composure" etc. and a list
of instructions which are to be followed to fulfill that spiritual destiny.
It sounds to me like a parent telling a son or daughter "Look kid, your
going to accomplish great things. I know it. Just buckle down and do your
homework" - a conditional vote of confidence that may not guarantee the
kid's greatness but is a whole lot more effective than saying "Ah, maybe
you'll make something of yourself if you work at it."
Considering that Baha'u'llah makes a distinction between "impending"
and "irrevocable" decrees, I would think it reasonable to conclude that the
spiritual destiny of the United States, Canada, Greenland or any other
country is impending (on the verge of happening) rather than irrevocable,
(just as there are impending catastrophies spoken of in the writings which
we often assume are irrevocably decreed) Certainly, if those conditions
spoken of by Abdu'l Baha were met and if those tasks he assigns us were
carried out by all the Baha'is, that impending spiritual destiny would be
fulfilled; but to say that the Spiritual Destiny of America has already
been fulfilled, I believe, is self defeating. To say it is irrevocably
decreed, is vanity, (and will no doubt increase the probability of occurance
of an impending calamity).
Destiny is an interesting word. Like destination, it's just wherever
we're going. That doesn't mean we'll get there without having a flat tire,
encountering detours, taking a wrong turn at Medicine Hat, or having to
postpone the trip for one reason or another.
LBG's
Gordon (learned in Blah Blah) McFarlane.
P.S. Having just recieved, from my father, a 150 year old set of 5 volumes
of Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" which had been passed on
to him by his father 30 years ago and to my grandfather from his father 85
years ago, I have assigned myself the task of reading the entire work during
1996. I seem to recall Ruhiyyih Khanum writing in the Priceless Pearl, that
Shoghi Effendi was a great admirer of Gibbon's style, that he always kept a
volume of the Decline at his bedside, (as my grandfather did), and that his
writing was influenced by Gibbon. Perhaps one of you historians or literary
types could elaborate on that for me. I do notice a similarity in writing
styles. Anyway, having just received the books today, I hunkered down in
volume 1 for several hours and when I read the following passage in the
Editor's preface I thought of our friend Juan R. Cole.
"The theologian", says Gibbon, "may indulge the pleasing task of
describing religion as she descended from heaven, arrayed in her native
purity; a more melancholy duty is imposed upon the historian: - he must
discover the inevitable mixture of error and corruption which she contracted
in a long residence upon earth among a weak and degenerate race of beings."
One more thing - Several kind souls have e-mailed me privately to ask me to
continue with the narrative I began in mid December during a bout with
pnemonia when I could do little else but write. I posted the first 2
installments of that story - "Probably Some Cult in the Bahamas" (and) "The
Nightmare". My original intention was to post the peripety and denoument of
this amazing, autobiographical adventure in a 3rd installment of similar
proportion. I got carried away. Now I fear if I posted the entire body of
the text I have amassed during my affliction I would make myself even less
popular on Talisman than our recent visitor, Mr. Faust, who is responsible
for my having lost the addresses of those aforementioned kind souls.
Nevertheless, I will post an abridged version of the relevant episode in the
near future. I have chosen as a working title for this masterpiece (which
will no doubt eventually become a landmark in Baha'i literature), "Dodging
God".
To those of you who have read this far - Thank you.
Gord.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
From: "William P. Collins"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:50:59 +0000
Subject: Aristrocracy, etc.
The elements of monarchy, aristocracy, democracy, etc. which Shoghi
Effendi says are present in the Baha'i administrative structure, are
not primarily based upon heredity. Shoghi Effendi carries on this
entire discussion in "The World Order of Baha'u'llah" in the context
of Aristotle's political constitutions. Aristotle's model has been
shown as a grid with two columns and three rows. The first column
contains healthy constitutions that rule for the good of all, the second column
contains degenerate constitutions where the rulers seek their own
benefit. The top row shows rule by a single individual; the second
row shows rule by a group; the third row shows rule by the many:
HEALTHY DEGENERATE
One Monarchy Tyranny
Group Aristocracy Oligarchy
Many Polity Democracy (Mob
(Constitutional Rule)
Democracy)
Aristotle's schema doesn't per se require inheritance, and I do not
think that Shoghi Effendi was referring to inheritance. What the
Guardian was comparing was the number making decisions, and whether
their constitutional power could degenerate into the self-seeking
style of column 2. The Guardian's conclusion, I think, is that the
Baha'i order harmonizes the elements of column one, while eliminating
the possibility of degeneration toward the constitutional types in
column two.
Bill Collins
4705541@mcimail.com (h)
wcol@loc.gov (w)
6819 Stoneybrooke Lane, Alexandria, VA 22306
=END=
Sub: ... no subject ...
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 09:25:28 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
unsubscribe talisman B.M.Elsmore@massey.ac.nz
approve alkimiya unsubscribe talisman B.M.Elsmore@massey.ac.nz
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Aborted Attempts ( "Jettison the Warp Core Jordi!")
To: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 9:36:57 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Jim--
Your story brings to mind one of my own from the days of the
*real* youth movement :) of the 1970s. When I was in college,
the Shreveport, LA community, which had been without a center
for a while, agreed to adopt the apartment of one of the young
members as a center. It was adjacent to campus, convenient to
all parts of the city, and was already a de facto Baha'i
hangout.
Things went along pretty well, until one day the LSA just
announced that there would be no more Baha'i Center. "Why?
Have we done anything wrong? Please explain" we said in
unison. The answer from the LSA was "we don't have to explain;
we're not answerable to the community." We said "you may not
*have* to explain, but you *ought* to explain; we've worked our
butts off for this center and don't think it fair to do this
without telling us why." Their response, in essence, was "this
is the way Baha'i administration is mandated to work; if you
have the audacity to ask us to explain ourselves then you just
don't understand the Covenant." And that was that. We
wrote to NSA protesting/appealing, and never got a response. That was
the beginning of the end for me; all of us are ex-Baha'is now.
These people interpreted the principle that administrative
bodies are not *required* to justify their decisions to the
community to mean that administrative bodies are *required not
to* justify their decisions. In other words, as a matter of
principle they refused to explain themselves, which left a
bitter taste for a long time. Your experience with the Regional Youth
Committees sounds exactly the same at the national level. Somebody made
decisions on the basis of evidence unknown to you, the edict
was handed down, and with one wave of the administrative wand
all your dreams were destroyed. And you never got the courtesy
of an explanation.
To my mind this is a perfect illustration of the fundamentally
flawed nature of a system in which power flows from the top
down and is not answerable to those upon whom it acts. Baha'i
makes this explicit and erects it as a divine principle; but
Theosophy sneaks it in the back door despite an ostensibly
democratic structure. Right now there's a major rebellion in
our ranks that may illumine the problem and help end it. Power
to the people!
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Digest option
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 9:48:17 EST
Something I have found extremely helpful in reducing my mail
volume on theos-l is the digest option. This sends you one
long daily file including all the messages posted to the list
that day. I checked with majordomo and found out this can be
made available for Talisman for those who wish it, while others
can continue to receive message by message.
The digest option is the only way I can afford the time to keep
up with Talisman beyond the holidays. (For some, this may be a
good reason not to institute it). But in the wake of the Faust
mess, it strikes me that this option might be useful to many of
us. Perhaps for example Bill Collins would have been spared
his disaster had those 455 messages been one long one?
Please let the listowner know if you think you would prefer to
get Talisman as a daily "newspaper" instead of a steady trickle
of individual messages. John has indicated willingness to look
into this, and perhaps the number of subscribers interested in
it is a relevant criterion for deciding whether to proceed.
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 10:04:28 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Faust
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Honored participants:
The sinner in the Faust affair has fessed up. It was a combination of
a bug, a helpful tech support person, and innocent error.
Next time something like this happens, the zealous younger members of
the list should send a polite note to the relevant sysop, not bury him
in forwarded messages.
John Walbridge
List Owner
P.S. Occasionally it happens that Talisman is the sinning party, as in one
case where everything on Talisman was going in dozens of copies to a complete
stranger in England. I appreciated the moderation of his response.
jw
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 09:19:41
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: "K. Paul Johnson"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re[2]: Aborted Attempts ( "Jettison the Warp Core Jordi!")
It's too bad the LSA in question had never taken the principle of
consultation seriously.
Important to remember: in the 1970s when the Faith grew with
incredible speed, there were huge numbers of new LSAs and most of the
members had never served on an LSA before. Times have changed now;
most LSA members have served on LSAs for several years, so they have
experience; and thre have been several efforts to train LSAs,
including a body of training literature. So the situation described
below is *less* likely to happen now.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Aborted Attempts ( "Jettison the Warp Core Jordi!")
Author: "K. Paul Johnson" at INTERNET
Date: 12/29/95 9:04 AM
Dear Jim--
Your story brings to mind one of my own from the days of the
*real* youth movement :) of the 1970s. When I was in college,
the Shreveport, LA community, which had been without a center
for a while, agreed to adopt the apartment of one of the young
members as a center. It was adjacent to campus, convenient to
all parts of the city, and was already a de facto Baha'i
hangout.
Things went along pretty well, until one day the LSA just
announced that there would be no more Baha'i Center. "Why?
Have we done anything wrong? Please explain" we said in
unison. The answer from the LSA was "we don't have to explain;
we're not answerable to the community." We said "you may not
*have* to explain, but you *ought* to explain; we've worked our
butts off for this center and don't think it fair to do this
without telling us why." Their response, in essence, was "this
is the way Baha'i administration is mandated to work; if you
have the audacity to ask us to explain ourselves then you just
don't understand the Covenant." And that was that. We
wrote to NSA protesting/appealing, and never got a response. That was
the beginning of the end for me; all of us are ex-Baha'is now.
These people interpreted the principle that administrative
bodies are not *required* to justify their decisions to the
community to mean that administrative bodies are *required not
to* justify their decisions. In other words, as a matter of
principle they refused to explain themselves, which left a
bitter taste for a long time. Your experience with the Regional Youth
Committees sounds exactly the same at the national level. Somebody made
decisions on the basis of evidence unknown to you, the edict
was handed down, and with one wave of the administrative wand
all your dreams were destroyed. And you never got the courtesy
of an explanation.
To my mind this is a perfect illustration of the fundamentally
flawed nature of a system in which power flows from the top down
and is not answerable to those upon whom it acts. Baha'i makes
this explicit and erects it as a divine principle; but Theosophy
sneaks it in the back door despite an ostensibly democratic
structure. Right now there's a major rebellion in our ranks
that may illumine the problem and help end it. Power to the
people!
=END=
From: "William P. Collins"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:50:12 +0000
Subject: Faust apology
We sometimes have ready and hasty reactions to the things that bother us.
It appears that my posting about Faust was unfair, considering
that the party was an innocent offender. Faust is an unfortunate
name for a computer server... I apologize to the individual who
ended up on the receiving end of our annoyance.
Several of you were kind enough to suggest that someone in my office
would probably have a backup of my address list and files. Alas, my
list was only on my own PC, and I had not made a recent backup. I
have imported my own address list from my home PC, but it is missing
many of you. So I may not be able to contact some of you until I
obtain email addresses for you again.
Bill Collins
4705541@mcimail.com (h)
wcol@loc.gov (w)
6819 Stoneybrooke Lane, Alexandria, VA 22306
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 11:56:44 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: felicity
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Felicity visited us at the senior Walbridge home in Michigan's north woods last
week. More specifically, Derek arrived at the hose dressed in a UPS uniformm
(did you see on T.V. that UPS truck drivers are the sex symbol of the season?)
to deliver Burl's book, my Christmas present to my dear father-in-law. He
couldn't stay long - our UPS clad Derek, that is - because the truck he had
hijacked had to be returned before it was reported missing. He understand he
was very reluctant to give up that uniform, though.
With the book - which contains a picture of Burl - was a photograph of Sherman.
Now, if one puts the picture of Burl side by side with Sherman it is most
difficult to determine which or who is the more striking. I have also
requested a photo of Derek so that I can create a collage of the three to place
on my wall. Darts, anyone?
I was truly gratified to read my Talisman mail - all 683 messages - and to
realize that my presence is not required to keep the blood boiling. On the
other hand, I am beginning to feel extraneous. My venomous remarks don't begin
to compare with some of the delightful reparte of this past week's postings.
My contribution to all this debate will seem so unsubstantial that I thought of
posting nothing at all. But, then, I read Bud's plea for more flames from
female voices and felt that I could not bear to let him down. I seemed to have
pleased Gordon so much with one of my last postings, that it would seem unkind
not to favor Bud and others with my words.
So, let me offer a thought or two. As for Nima being chided for his "back to
Baha'u'llah request," I feel I must comedefense. I don't see this as an
attempt to belittle the station of the Guardian or the UHJ, but surely they
would agree that the inspiration that comes from Baha'u'llah cannot be matched
by the words of any other. And, while we all agree on very little, I dare say
that even Jim Harrison and I would agree that inspiration is something we need
in abundance. Baha'u'llah's words can release creativity and give telop as no
other words can. This is a matter of focus. The American community has spent
years working on administration. It has invented a rule-mentality in a
religion that did not stress rules. I see this desire as an approach to
refresh and revitalize the Baha'i community.
I was pleased to see reference to Christmas church services. We joined John's
parents at Church for New Year's Eve service then went to a party afterwards
where we spent the evening comparing notes with the minister whom we have known
for years. During the service he acknowledged our presence in church in a
lovely manner which was truly in a Baha'i spirit.
As the e-mail is crashing, I will just add one more note. Robert, now that I
am back, we can resume throwing the crockery at one another. For
heaven's sakes, you are part of this forum and it is not nice for you to
threaten to leave. Maybe we should all just settle back down to our usual
lower intensity of hostility and get on with the show.
Linda
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 11:37:39 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Aborted Attempts ( "Jettison the Warp Core Jordi!")
Dear Paul:
I am sure that many of us have stories in this vein. And without doubt more
than a few people have drifted away, grown bitter or perhaps worse succumbed
to the *perky-cheery-gee-gollywiz-ain't-it-a-great-day!* type of Baha'i.
Those last ones frighten me.
But lest anyone misunderstand the intent of my last post regarding this
whole issue of America's spiritual destiny let me clear things up.
It was not the Administrative Order that is or was flawed. Without a doubt
the structure is still developing and could consequently be described as
immature. But the fault lay and still lies in the people _within_ the
Administrative Order.
We have a poorly educated community. It is shallow (as opposed to
deepened.) It is a community made up of constituants who resemble in their
day-to-day lives average Americans. There is nothing to distinguish the Faith
in America because the Faith in America is throughly American. Even our
descriptor -*American Baha'i* says it all. We are not Baha'is who happen to
live in America, we are American Baha'is, (as if the Faith came in different
flavors and colors.)
What happened to you, what happened to the Youth Movement of the '80s,
what has happened to a hundred other endeavors - but esp. those that
threatenend to really upset the apple cart is the reaction of people within
the Administrative Order who were/are quite comfortable in their upper middle
class status.
But even beyond that because we have not obeyed the Guardian's
instructions and before him Abdul-Baha's. Our worldview, our egos are still
immeshed in the psychology of the illusion of America. We have not stepped
out of that worldview to see ourselves as distinct, as we were repeatedly
called on to do.
Instead we have done all that we can to accomidate the Faith to America.
It is a strange accomadation. In some respects the Faith looks like a
southern baptist church council. But overwhelmingly it looks like a
spiritualized version of the liberal-left. So much so that the Universal
House of Justice had to warn us in their *Individual Rights and Freedoms*
letter to America.
Our institutions have the problems they do because the most of the people
on them do not know who they are and what they are to do. They function most
often like any other civic group. They get together. They plan functions such
as race unity picnics. They deal with *problems* in the community and they
try very hard to apply principles that don't work real well and they wished
they knew why.
It is this massive denial of who we are, and what we are to do that has
caused our pain. Those that have tried to break away from the spiritual
chains have been throughly punished by a community that is unconsciously
terrified of the consequences of truly bringing attention to itself on
anything other than the most naive and unchallenging way.
And as this pattern continues - the pattern we were repeatedly warned
against with increasing urgency by the Guardian, we slip into a deeper
psychosis. The only answer is to break the pattern.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 22:50:56 -0500
From: Patrick Sullivan
Subject: computer ethics & moral theologies update
Comments: To: cei-l@american.edu, buseth-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu,
ethics-l@uga.cc.uga.edu, soceth-l@vm.usc.edu,
cpae@catfish.valdosta.peachnet.edu
To: Multiple recipients of list G-ETHIC
Conference Announcement, registration information, etc.
COMPUTER ETHICS AND MORAL THEOLOGIES
Co-sponsored by the Computer Ethics Institute
Washington Theological Consortium and Virginia Theological Seminary
March 6-7, 1996, Virginia Theological Seminary, Alexandria, VA
What can the moral theologies of different religious
traditions say about the uses of information technologies and their
relationship to human action and quality of life? The Computer
Ethics Institute, Washington Theological Consortium and Virginia
Theological Seminary are pleased to announce a conference
addressing this question. The preliminary program includes:
Langdon Gilkey (University of Virginia, Dept. of Religious
Studies), Keynote address
Audrey R. Chapman (American Association for the Advancement of
Science, Program Director, Dialogue between Science and Religion),
on the findings of a AAAS project on the human rights implications
of information technologies applied to health care, and the issues
raised for moral theologies.
George Randels (Fellow in Professional Ethics, Center for Ethics in
Public Policy and the Professions, Emory University), "The Church
in Cyberspace: Networked, Platform, or Stand-alone?" Examines
Stanley Hauerwas' Church/world distinction with the Church as a
Christian's primary community, and applies it to the context of
cyberspace.
David Schmidt (Fairfield University), "The Challenge of Hypertext
for the Turn to Narrative in Theological Ethics" examines critical
connections between hypertext and narrative in theological ethics,
and seeks to identify and begin to asses the most important
implications of hypertext literary forms for narrative-based
theological ethics. Also raises critical observations from
narrative ethics about normative aspects of the phenomenon of
hypertext.
Greg Walters (Assoc. Prof. of Ethics and Dean, Faculty of
Philosophy, The Centre for Techno-Ethics of St. Paul Univ.,
Director, Ethical Issues of the Electronic Highway), "The Canadian
Information Highway, Access and the Conditions of Human Action:
Reflections From the Catholic Human Rights Perspective and Beyond."
Implications of Catholic social teaching on the right to
information and freedom of expression, and human rights perspective
for questions concerning access to facilities, content and
services; how best to protect against offensive content, ensure
privacy, and address workplace and employment issues.
Late proposals for papers or panels will be considered, especially
those representing nonChristian perspectives in religious ethics.
REGISTRATION INFORMATION:
To register return this form to: Computer Ethics and Moral
Theologies Conference, Computer Ethics Institute, P. O. Box 42672,
Washington, DC, 20015.
Or email to psullivan@brook.edu voice/fax: 301/469-0615
Name
___________________________________________________________________
Address
________________________________________________________________
Phone/email
____________________________________________________________
registration fee is $35 ($25 student) payable in advance or on-
site. Conference begins with reception and Keynote Wednesday
evening, and runs 9am-4:30pm on Thursday. Conference fee includes
reception and luncheon. Please make checks payable to the Computer
Ethics Institute
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 10:26:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: 1990's ain't 70's
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
I agree with the comment that the current level of LSA functioning is
significantly different than 1970's by the virtue of having more
experienced members serving on them. I see other reasons too.
1. the huge push of late 80's and early 90's on having LSA
Development Workshops is paying off in *many* communities.
2. marked development of ABMs and their assistants allowing them in
many communities to advise the LSA on the right course of action.
3. National offices are significantly more efficient in responding
than before.
4. the believers are a lot more deepened than 1970's.
5. in urban areas, there is the desire of making the right decision
because otherwise neighboring LSAs will let you know, (peer pressure).
6. many LSAs are having regular deepening segments in their LSA mtgs,
and hence are becoming better trained at their duties.
In short, with all the (perceived) present day shortcomings of Baha'i
administration, its a colossal error to disregard the marked and deep
maturity of the past 2 decades.
The Baha'i administration does not claim perfection; it rightly claims
a positive rate of growth in maturity.
There are some very detailed statistics to demonstrate this rate of
growth. For example, during the period of 1979-92, the number of LSAs
which function properly (as defined by the 9 objectives of the House
of Justice) increased by 1,850 %. That's right! It went up by a
factor of 18.5 times. Therefore our claim that the quality of
functioning of our LSAs, on global basis, is a monotone increasing
path can be backed up with detailed statistics for every single year
and every single national community. A summary is available in each
recently published volume of "The Baha'i World".
Therefore, 90's ain't 70's.
regards, ahang.
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Aborted Attempts ( "Jettison the Warp Core Jordi!")
To: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 13:07:40 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to Alethinos@aol.com:
>
> It was not the Administrative Order that is or was flawed. Without a doubt
> the structure is still developing and could consequently be described as
> immature. But the fault lay and still lies in the people _within_ the
> Administrative Order.
That seems like an a priori assumption; can you really consider
seriously the possibility that the order itself is flawed, with
all the disturbing implications that brings? People ALWAYS
have faults no matter what administrative order they
participate