Talisman Bahai Archives Dec. 28-31, 1995
Dec. 28-31, 1995
Talisman emails received 12/28/95
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Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 02:51:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: talisman
Subject: This Day not followed by Night
Alison asks a question that I have wondered about much as well. She
writes: "BTW: It has always been a problem for me that this Day has been
described by Baha'u'llah as being the Day that will not be followed by
night, and yet, were this to be taken as an absolute, there would be no
need for another manifestation."
'Abdu'l-Baha writes in SAQ: "In this material world time has cycles...
At one time it is the season of spring; at another it is the season of
autumn; and again it is the season of summer or the season of winter... It
is the same with the spiritual cycles of the Prophets--that is to say, the
day of the appearance of the Holy Manifestations is the spiritual
springtime... Afterward the life-giving spring ends in fruitful summer...
When it reaches the meridian, it will begin to decline and descend, and
the spiritual summer will be followed by autumn, when growth and
development are arrested... winter arrives... When the season of winter
has had its effect, again the spiritual springtime returns, and a new
cycle appears."
How, then, are we to reconcile this cyclical teaching with the teaching
that the Day of Fulfilment, following the Era of Prophecy, will have no
end?
-Jonah
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 01:04:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: postmaster@eznet.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: faust@eznet.com
Dear eznet.com postmaster--
One of your subscribers has been dumping over 400 messages on a list I
subscribe to: Talisman@indiana.edu. Given the dubious nature of such an
action, not mention that it is against USENET regulations, I am herewith
requesting that you remove this persons account from use immediately.
Majordomo@indiana.edu indicates that faust@eznet.com is not even a
subscriber to the Talisman list.
Thank you for your consideration of this matter.
Regards,
Nima Hazini
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Homosexuality/Conscience
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 02:24:26 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi, Dave -
Thanks for your note. (BTW, did you all get bombed with all those
old messages from Talisman, Noble Creation, Baha'i Intuition, Baha'i
Tech etc.? I counted 450,000 bytes in about 90 minutes! Yet, without
that, I might not have received Dave Taylor's message, which was
apparently lost during one of my server's recent crashes. So I must,
at least on that account, be grateful to this individual.)
I agree with you regarding the social constructedness of sexual
to identity. Irrespective of whether there are any biological correlates
to homosexuality (and I rather suspect there are), the key is how human
sexuality is defined within the context of revealed truths. Obviously,
itt is a complex subject and one which, I think, will only be grasped
progressively.
From my POV, sex, on the animal level, *is* love. Like all things
physical, one's sexuality, as I think the Kashmir Shaivites understood
it, can be either a source of frustration and possible debasement or a
vehicle for spiritual transformation. In the dance of Shakti and Shiva
is a demonstration of the divine metaphysic of unity in diversity.
Femininity and masculinity, rather than viewed as distinct and separate
units, can be seen, in contemporary terms, as a holographic image. The
point of light is one. However, the appearance of spatial patterns
(diversity) is merely an emanation or impression of that unity of light.
In what could, perhaps, be called a Baha'i "tantra," all things have
certain ideal relationships. Conformity to the gestalt (configuration)
leads to the expression of beauty (the emanation of the Ancient Beauty)
in the kingdoms of creation. The key for discovering the divine pattern
lies in the Prophetic Teachings (the inner mysteries of "the words He
hath revealed"). That, to me, is the challenge. Our present-day world
order is so remote from the ideal that the gestalt itself, the tantra,
has been almost totally disrupted. However, rather than focusing
*primarily* on ameliorating the misconnections in the reality of outward
appearances, I would rather understood the inner dynamic which generates
the externals and attempt to work with it.
IMHO, gaia and all life on it itself express a tantric imbalance.
Homosexuality is only one small dimension of it. Rather than condemning
the condition of dis-ease which affects each one of us, perhaps we could
instead examine the spiritual animus which is responsible for our
present state of self-addiction. What virtues do I choose to link with,
and how can one's moral community, one's 'umma, realize one of its
primary functions as a cultivator of spiritual qualities.
Bright blessings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*1995 President, Kansas Sociological Society Co-Moderator, Baha'i Announce *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 01:39:33 MST
From: Gordon McFarlane
To: TALISMAN@indiana.edu
Subject: What the heck is going on!!!!
I have just finished purging approx 400 archived messages from Talisman sent by
some crackpot - has this happened to everybody on the list - if so, can
somethinbe done about it. It is really quite an annoyance. Thank you.
Gord.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: "back to Baha`u`llah"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 02:44:36 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what is being intended by the term
"back to Baha'u'llah." However, it is my understanding that by linking
with the Covenant (including the Master, the Guardian, and the Universal
House of Justice), we are, by definition, going back to Baha'u'llah. Why
is it necessary to make distinctions? Can't we just see these various
persons and institutions as forming a spiritual gestalt, and that by
turning to the Master, the Guardian, or the House, with the proper
perspective, we are, in reality, going back to the Blessed Beauty
anyway?
Warm regards to all,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*1995 President, Kansas Sociological Society Co-Moderator, Baha'i Announce *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 01:24:46 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Faust...
Well talis--- this list was not the only one... Spokane Area Bahai's was
hit, and Bahai Tech I got over 370 messages.... I have sent mail to the
list managers of each, and will soon find out... Funny thing, the address
for Spokane Area Bahai is the same as his.... (Spokane is a city on the
other side of the State of Washington.) I have no clue....
Delete is not a problem for me neither...
Good night, Now I am sleepy,
Margreet
=END=
From: Ahmad Aniss
Subject: garbage in my mbox
To: faust@eznet.com
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 20:26:37 +1100 (EST)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Whoever is faust@mail.eznet.com
What are you gaining by sending back e-mail messages from a number
of Baha'i sites. Please stop it. I had to delete over 300 messages
No need to be funny.
to talismanians: just delete any message which arrives from
faust@mail.eznet.com, this will get those messages off your system.
I hope this is not a system break down.
Best wishes,
Ahmad.
=END=
From: "Bud Polk"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 08:17:34 +0600
Subject: Faust is real account
Dear Friends,
I am forwarding in full the results of a "return receipt requested"
E-mail that I sent to faust@eznet.com. The bottom-line is that
"faust" is real because the message did not bounce. Since "faust"
is a real account, I strongly agree with Sadra that we all write to
"postmaster@eznet.com" and request that "excessive flooding" by
faust be stopped. Bud Polk
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 05:59:04 -0800
From: Mailer-Daemon@eznet.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Subject: Returned mail: Return receipt
To: cybrmage@niia.net (Bud Polk)
----- Transcript of session follows -----
<<< HELO silver.niia.net
<<< MAIL From:
<<< RCPT To:
<<< DATA
----- Message header follows -----
Received: from silver.niia.net by foothills (5.0/SMI-SVR4)
id AA01702; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 05:59:04 -0800
Received: from LOCALNAME (pm1-24.niia.net [204.248.189.24]) by
silver.niia.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id HAA20446 for
; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 07:59:31 -0600 Message-Id:
<199512281359.HAA20446@silver.niia.net> Comments: Authenticated sender
is From: "Bud Polk" To:
faust@eznet.com Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 08:00:23 +0600 Mime-Version:
1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: flooding Reply-To:
cybrmage@niia.net (Bud Polk) X-Confirm-Reading-To: cybrmage@niia.net
(Bud Polk) X-Pmrqc: 1 Return-Receipt-To: cybrmage@niia.net (Bud Polk)
Priority: urgent X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23)
content-length: 5
=END=
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: Faust
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 09:44:22 -0500
From: "Collins, William P."
-- [ From: Collins, William P. * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
I was chagrined to find that the flood of email messages this morning
completely undermined my email program and destroyed my entire address list,
all my folders, and cost me 3 hours of work. I was unable to restore any of
the lost material.
I am angered by those who find it so easy to be destructive, and who then
find it amusing. I wish upon the perpetrator a long life, and the whirlwind
of having done to him many times over what he has done to others. It will
make the lesson stick, I trust.
--
Bill Collins
4705541@mcimail.com (h)
wcol@loc.gov (w)
6819 Stoneybrooke Lane, Alexandria, VA 22306
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: faust@eznet.com
Date: 28 Dec 1995 08:31:52 GMT
It looks to me like this may be part of Eric's archiving project of Baha'i
lists and some to/from fields got mixed up. I hope he hasn't gone on
vacation. But pity poor Juan who, last I heard, was using a 2400 baud modem.
It only took me about 5 minutes to delete all the messages and set up a Bozo
filter for faust@eznet.com, but at 2400 bps, nothing happens quickly.
Don C
- sent via an evaluation copy of BulkRate (unregistered).
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 09:34:53
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: Sadra
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: faust@eznet.com
This is a great idea, Nima. If the flood doesn't stop, we could all
forward EVERY message we receive from Faust to the postmaster;
wouldn't that make a mess? If all of us forwarded just ten messages,
it would make a mess (if there are 200 of us on this list). I bet
that would produce a response.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: faust@eznet.com
Author: Sadra at INTERNET
Date: 12/28/95 8:43 AM
Dear eznet.com postmaster--
One of your subscribers has been dumping over 400 messages on a list I
subscribe to: Talisman@indiana.edu. Given the dubious nature of such an
action, not mention that it is against USENET regulations, I am herewith
requesting that you remove this persons account from use immediately.
Majordomo@indiana.edu indicates that faust@eznet.com is not even a
subscriber to the Talisman list.
Thank you for your consideration of this matter.
Regards,
Nima Hazini
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 16:23:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: America's Spiritual Destin
>>...enable them to bring to a triumphant termination the initial epoch in
>>the unfoldment of the Divine Plan which He has primarily entrusted to them...
>The first epoch of the Tablet of the Divine Plan was completed by Ridvan 1963..
.
Well, yeah, the first epoch was, but I read Shoghi Effendi's sentence above
differently, in that Shoghi Effendi, referring to "the Divine Plan which
He has primarily{ entrusted" to America, is telling us how to finish up the
"initial epoch." There's no comma after "Divine Plan" so this seems to be
the more grammatical understanding. (this is probably why we're warned
against interpreting; no two of us can read the same sentence the same
way ).
So, how about this one:
"Theirs will be the duty and privelege, in their capacity first as the
establishers of one of the most powerful pillars sustaining the edifice of
the Universal House of Justice, and then as the champion-builders of that
New World Order of which that House is to be the nucleus and forerunner,
to inculcate, demonstrate, and apply those twin and sorely-needed principles
of Divine justice and order..." Shoghi Effendi, _The Advent of Divine
Justice_, p.16 (lots of good stuff in that book!)
Note that we're supposed to be "champion-builders" of something of which
the UHJ is "nucleus and _forerunner_"-- that certainly implies that
American Baha'is have work to do between establishment of the UHJ and
beginning of the "Golden Age."
Leigh (frantically flipping pages...)
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 16:33:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Faust-o-Rama
Actually, at 2400 baud, it takes 2 hours, 20 minutes to clear that much
garbage out of a mailbox. Ick! Ugh! Ptoo! May it not happen again...
Leigh
=END=
From: "Bud Polk"
To: Sadra , "Stockman, Robert"
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:00:42 +0600
Subject: Re: faust@eznet.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
On 28 Dec 95 at 9:34, Stockman, Robert wrote:
>
> This is a great idea, Nima. If the flood doesn't stop, we
> could all forward EVERY message we receive from Faust to the
> postmaster; wouldn't that make a mess? If all of us forwarded
> just ten messages, it would make a mess (if there are 200 of us
> on this list). I bet that would produce a response.
>
> -- Rob Stockman
>
>
> ______________________________ Reply Separator
> _________________________________ Subject: faust@eznet.com Author:
> Sadra at INTERNET Date: 12/28/95 8:43 AM
>
>
> Dear eznet.com postmaster--
>
> One of your subscribers has been dumping over 400 messages on a list
> I subscribe to: Talisman@indiana.edu. Given the dubious nature of
> such an action, not mention that it is against USENET regulations, I
> am herewith requesting that you remove this persons account from use
> immediately. Majordomo@indiana.edu indicates that faust@eznet.com is
> not even a subscriber to the Talisman list.
>
> Thank you for your consideration of this matter.
>
> Regards,
> Nima Hazini
>
>
Dear friends,
If you have a mail client, say Pegasus, for example, you can create
"rules" that will forward _all_ messages containing "faust"
anywhere in the header to the postmaster and/or to faust@eznet.com.
Pegasus, for example, filters and queues automatically. All one
must do is "send queued messsages" and Pegasus and the server do the
rest.
Neither the postmaster@eznet.com nor faust has answered my posts. I
wonder ....
Bud Polk
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 10:30:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Suggestion for John Walbridge
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
John,
I suggest that you speak with Majordomo folks and see if you can
set up Talisman so that only mail from those who subscribe to
Talisman is forwarded through the reflective server.
This can easily be done with a logic statement which checks the
author of each message to see if that person is recognized by the
master subscription list of Talisman. And if the author does not
subscribe to Talisman, it won't forward the message to Talisman,
but will forward it only to you as the list owner which then you
can decide on its disposition.
During the past week we've experienced two unfortunate incidents:
an individual who is not a member of list posted here and caused
a bit of uproar (referring to Michelle Ma'ani incident), and
"Faust" bombardment of Talisman.
By the way, for those who use Windows to read their mail, you can
easily set up filters which would prevent receiving mail from any
given address. On occasions when I want to temporarily
unsubscribe from Talisman or other professional discussion groups
that I am on, I use such filters and that way don't have to mess
with Majordomo or other reflectors.
regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: 28 Dec 95 12:10:47 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Overwhelming Message Volume
Dear Talismanians,
Although I've been a tad indisposed during the holidays, I leave Talisman
for a few days, and bingo, 469 messages! Argh! Because I'm on the very
inadequate Compuserve mail program, 100 of those got to me, and the rest
bounced back into some unfortunate one's return file (sorry, John!).
Were all of these messages archived old posts from "faust", as were the
last ten or so I received?
At any rate, Mom and Dad leave for a little while and the kids wreak havoc.
Love,
David
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: rstockman@usbnc.org
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: faust@eznet.com
Date: 28 Dec 1995 11:34:06 GMT
Before we all go off half-cocked, we need to take a few things into
consideration.
First off, what ever happened has quit, at least for the time being.
Secondly, a message has already been sent to the postmaster of the site.
Thirdly, there is no reason I can see to believe that what happened was any
kind of plot or practical joke.
Because it covered such a long period (10 days?) and is not now occuring, I
think any further action is unwarranted unless it occurs again tonight.
In any case, mass mailings are not a good way to endear the list to the admin
of the eznet.com. Because it is a commercial site, there is a very high
liklihood that someone is trying to find out exactly what happened and why.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 12:41:00 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: America's Spritual Destiny
Mr. Buck:
Those are indeed excellent questions. The first is something we need to
explore here, and I do have some thoughts on it. Let me handle the second
question first.
>>(2) Finally, are not Native Americans and Native Canadians integral
to America's spiritual destiny?<<
I have worked extensively with the Native American community in the West
for years. I was telling Terry just the other day that I plan to be
travelling *Indian Country* this Spring with a friend. I was raised on a
reservation and most my immediate kin are Native (I'm not - half English and
half Spanish/Mexican.)
I do feel that the People have an intregal part to play in the unfoldment.
And yes Canadians too. Although I think most of the Guardian's penetrating
stare was directed at the US - by simply virtue of it being _what_ it is he
obviously was including Canada and perhaps to a lesser extent Mexico. I say
that because if you look at the Advent of Divine Justice - perhaps the
centerpiece of his vision, he clearly expected us to repeat the spiritual
revolution that the original dawnbreakers had in Persia - because as he
clearly stated the US was in most ways even worse of morally and spiritually.
The People do have a role - a very important one I feel.
AS to question #1 - Mr. Buck that is a great insight. That point had never
dawned on me in the way in which you voiced it - tho I had seen the quote
many times. I would love to discuss it and hear what Terry and Kevin as well
as Brent and Juan would have to say about it. Mark and David T., also. And
Margreet . . .and et al (whoever he is.)
. . . but what of Burl?
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 12:41:13 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Bull in a China closet
I am sure Burl could make a good pun out of that . . .
Friends. My intention in forcefully engaging your attention has been simply
to bring this most important of issues to the fore. Some have mistook my
forthright manner in setting aside many of the other issues of contention
here as a callous disregard for other's pain and concerns. Nothing could be
further from the truth.
I too have *issues* that are extremely important to me, on a personal level.
Working with the Native Americans and their plight affects my heart deeply.
Economic injustice and prejudice of all kinds tear me up and I do what I can
about them.
But all of these pains are symptoms of a much larger illness. Attempting to
face this widespread disease is overwhelming to the most optimistic observer.
Indeed if we were not promised divine assistance no sane person would
consider it.
Martin Luther King jr. believed in this divine assistance. And he did move
this nation. he touched our consciousness and our conscience. And it is so
apparent that this is essentially what the Guardian was so hoping for from
us.
But we faced a lot of inertia. And our population was composed primarily of
middle class whites. AS any good historian will tell you this group is
usually the last to jump on any bandwagon. They're too busy trying to hang in
there and possibly get ahead - always reaching for that illusion held out to
them by those that have a firm control of their economic and social destiny.
As a community we have to date failed to arise. Thos is not to say that many
great individuals have not sacrificed themselves in attempting to see the
vision brought to reality here in America. We love our heros. America loves
their heros. We live vicariously through them. It is our culture. it is a
result, oddly enough, of an excessive bent on individualism, but that is
another story . . .
I am sorry if I have stepped on some toes. I never have intended to hurt
anyone. But this crisis our community suffers is far too important to go
unnoticed, let alone examined and then, finally, clearly dealt with to the
end.
If we truly want to see an end to the various ills we suffer from let us deal
with the disease, honestly, directly, bravely. Let us examine it and
ourselves - where it resides. Let us heal ourselves so that we can, as the
Guardian promised us, heal our fellow countrymen.
>>The gross materialism that engulfs the entire nation at the Present
hour; the attachment to worldly things that enshrouds the souls of men;
the fears and anxieties that distract their minds; the pleasure and
dissipations that fill their time, the prejudices and animosities that
darken their outlook, the apathy and lethargy that paralyze their
spiritual faculties - these are among the formidable obstacles that stand
in the path of every would-be warrior in the service of Baha'u'llah,
obstacles which he must battle against and surmount in his crusade for
the redemption of his own countrymen.
To the degree that the home front crusader is himself cleansed of
these impurities, liberated from these petty preoccupations and gnawing
anxieties, delivered from these prejudices and antagonisms, emptied
of self, and filled by the healing and the sustaining power of
God, will he be able to combat the forces arrayed against him, magnetize
the souls of those whom he seeks to convert, and win their unreserved,
their enthusiastic and enduring allegiance to the Faith of
Baha'u'llah.
Delicate and strenuous though the task may be, however arduous
and prolonged the effort required, whatsoever the nature of the perils
and pitfalls that beset the path of whoever arises to revive the fortunes
of a Faith struggling against the rising forces of materialism, nationalism,
secularism, racialism, ecclesiasticism, the all-conquering potency
of the grace of God, vouchsafed through the Revelation of Baha'u'llah,
will, undoubtedly, mysteriously and surprisingly, enable whosoever
arises to champion His Cause to win complete and total victory.
(Citadel of Faith, pages 148-149)
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 12:41:08 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: America's Spiritual Destiny
In a message dated 95-12-27 11:41:32 EST, you write:
>Let me state my belief about the America's spiritual destiny, and I'll
>do so in a way to provoke a response from you ;-}
>
>I believe America's spiritual destiny is already fulfilled.
Dear Ahang:
It would seem that a number of folks disagree with your assessment.
Actually I have heard the above a more than a few times. And it is usually
expressed similarly to what you said here. Mostly it has to do with a narrow
reading of the Guardian's exhortations for Baha'is in America to pioneer. As
a matter of fact one of those passages which I had heard for years - one
often quoted when various folk wanted to praise our great actions, pat us on
the head and keep us down on the farm, so to speak:
>>The spirit that sent forth, not so long ago, in such
rapid succession, so many pioneers to such remote areas of the globe,
must at all costs and above everything else, be recaptured, for the two-fold
purpose of swelling the number, and of ensuring the continual
flow, of pioneers, so essential for the safeguarding of the prizes won in
the course of the several campaigns of a world-girdling Crusade,<<
Now here is the section we usually see - when we have been urged to "continue
to fulfill America's spiritual destiny!" in the American Baha'i newspaper, at
conferences, etc. There are other quotes as well of course, but this is a
good one. Except you usually see it just like this - rarely do you see the
rest of this:
>> and of combatting the evil forces which a relentless and all-pervasive
materialism,
the cancerous growth of militant racialism, political corruption, unbridled
capitalism, wide-spread lawlessness and gross immorality, are, alas,
unleashing, with ominous swiftness, amongst various classes of the society to
which the members of this community belong.<<
(Citadel of Faith, page 154)
Combine this with the tone and the present sense of urgency in the message
beow:
>>I feel it nevertheless incumbent upon me to utter,
at this juncture, a word of warning. The glowing tributes,
so repeatedly and deservedly paid to the capacity, the
spirit, the conduct, and the high rank, of the American believers,
both individually and as an organic community,
must, under no circumstances, be confounded with the
characteristics and nature of the people from which God has
raised them up. A sharp distinction between that community
and that people must be made, and resolutely and fearlessly
upheld, if we wish to give due recognition to the
transmuting power of the Faith of Baha'u'llah, in its impact
on the lives and standards of those who have chosen to enlist
under His banner. Otherwise, the supreme and distinguishing
function of His Revelation, which is none other
than the calling into being of a new race of men, will remain
wholly unrecognized and completely obscured.
(Advent of Divine Justice, page 16)
And then compare it with this:
>>A PRAYER WHICH I NEVER CEASE TO UTTER
The Prizes within the reach of this community are truly inestimable.
Much will depend on the reaction of the rank and file of the
believers to the plea now addressed to them with all the fervor of my
soul.
To act, and act promptly and decisively, is the need of the present
hour and their inescapable duty. That the American Baha'i Community
may, in this one remaining field, where so much is at stake, and
where the needs of the Faith are so acute, cover itself with a glory that
will outshine the splendor of its past exploits in the far-flung territories
of the globe, is a prayer which I never cease to utter in my continual
supplications to Baha'u'llah.
(Citadel of Faith, page 150)
The "one remaining field" the Guardian is referrring to here is of course
the homefront.
Lest anyone jump too quickly and attempt to discredit this by suggesting
these quotes are being taken out of context all I can say is that would be
false. I can provide (as can most of you, if you do the homework) all the
references from the Guardian in the writings as easily as I. All I did, after
hearing Counsellor Enello was go to the writings and begin extracting
_everything_ that the Guardian, the Master and the Universal House of Justice
had written about America. And it is as clear as a bell struck soundly.
Nothing hidden. No textual disputes, no translation problems. Straight up.
If America (the Baha'i community) - if we had done our duty the
social/spiritual landscape we see before us would be markedly different. The
Guardian clearly gave, as did the Master before him distinct indicators -
signposts - that would let us know if we were succeeding. On the positive
side these were significant increase in enrollement and even more important
an expanding and maturing community, (considering the problems discussed
here, which I supposedly so callousley tossed aside . . . again if you had
noted in all my lil' battles with Juan and Linda I stated that the *problems*
they were addressing primarily stem from NOT fulfilling our destiny as laid
out by Shoghi Effendi and that if we want to see a resolution of them we need
to arise to do this thing - never once have I said they were irrelevent -
they are simply symptoms and if we constantly dwell on them we will _never_
get to the root cause.)
On the negative side (if we want to view it that way) we will be openly
and visciously attacked:
>>In the conduct of this twofold crusade the valiant warriors
struggling in the name and for the Cause of Baha'u'llah
must, of necessity, encounter stiff resistance, and suffer
many a setback. Their own instincts, no less than the fury of
conservative forces, the opposition of vested interests, and
the objections of a corrupt and pleasure-seeking generation,
must be reckoned with, resolutely resisted, and completely
overcome. As their defensive measures for the impending
struggle, are organized and extended, storms of abuse and
ridicule, and campaigns of condemnation and misrepresentation,
may be unloosed against them. Their Faith, they may
soon find, has been assaulted, their motives misconstrued,
their aims defamed, their aspirations derided, their institutions
scorned, their influence belittled, their authority undermined,
and their Cause, at times, deserted by a few who
will either be incapable of appreciating the nature of their
ideals, or unwilling to bear the brunt of the mounting criticisms
which such a contest is sure to involve. "Because of
'Abdu'l-Baha," the beloved Master has prophesied, "many a
test will be visited upon you. Troubles will befall you, and suffering
afflict you."
(Advent of Divine Justice, pages 41-42)
and this also:
>>The administrative strongholds of a Faith, bound to be subjected on
the one hand, to a severe spiritual challenge from within, through the
inevitable impact of these devastating influences on its infant strength,
and, on the other, to the onslaught of ecclesiastical leaders, the
traditional defenders of religious orthodoxy from without, must be
multiplied and reinforced for the purpose of warding off the inevitable
attacks of the assailants, of vindicating the ideals and principles which
animate their defenders, and of ensuring the ultimate victory and
ascendency of the Faith itself over the nefarious elements seeking to
undermine it from within, and its powerful detractors aiming at its
extinction from without.
(Citadel of Faith, page 154)
These are just two examples - there are dozen of other quotes - all with a
tense that indicates that this will not occur in some far-flung future
America but soon - within the lifetimes of those reading the letters. All of
ADJ and CF is urgent in tone - the time is now! Ruhiyyih Khanum repeats this
over and over in The Priceless Pearl and The Guardian of the Baha'i Faith.
This is a very long post. I hope tho that this conveys some impression of how
I see this. It is not a dead issue. Certainly Mr. Buck's question concerning
the lesser peace and that letter from the Guardian would indicate that.
Thank you very much sir for your candid response. I hope we can discourse on
this honestly, openly, and with searching hearts.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 11:57:51
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re[3]: faust@eznet.com
I agree. Thank God it has stopped.
John does not appear to be around; I suspect he's out of town for a
few days. I sent a message to majordomo@indiana.edu about the problem
but it bounced back, though maybe it was forwarded to someone as well.
Does anyone know a better address for writing straight to majordomo?
I am sure they will do anything they can if we ask; they don't want
this volume of work either.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re: faust@eznet.com
Author: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com at INTERNET
Date: 12/28/95 11:47 AM
Before we all go off half-cocked, we need to take a few things into
consideration.
First off, what ever happened has quit, at least for the time being.
Secondly, a message has already been sent to the postmaster of the site.
Thirdly, there is no reason I can see to believe that what happened was any
kind of plot or practical joke.
Because it covered such a long period (10 days?) and is not now occuring, I
think any further action is unwarranted unless it occurs again tonight.
In any case, mass mailings are not a good way to endear the list to the admin
of the eznet.com. Because it is a commercial site, there is a very high
liklihood that someone is trying to find out exactly what happened and why.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 11:20:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Nothing special about America!
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Leigh,
I am glad to see such a worthy debater on this topic. And happy
to see that you're taking my push-backs in good cheers, as I mean
only to clarify the issue of America's spiritual destiny, which I
maintain is already fulfilled and there is nothing in the
writings which distinguishes the *current* task of this country
from the rest of the nations.
First, its not clear what is meant by "America". Do we mean the
continental United States (48 contagious States), or the entire
United States (Alaska and Hawaii too), or US and Canada, or the
entire continent of the Americas. I think as we read these
various quotes from the Guardian, it would be useful to ask which
of these land masses is he referring to because it seems
different pieces are meant at different times. So, I am going to
leave this as an issue that must be dealt with.
Now to the latest quotation which you kindly shared:
> "Theirs will be the duty and privilege, in their capacity first
> as the establishers of one of the most powerful pillars
> sustaining the edifice of the Universal House of Justice, and
> then as the champion-builders of that New World Order of which
> that House is to be the nucleus and forerunner, to inculcate,
> demonstrate, and apply those twin and sorely-needed principles
> of Divine justice and order..." Shoghi Effendi, _The Advent of
> Divine Justice_, p.16
> Note that we're supposed to be "champion-builders" of something
> of which the UHJ is "nucleus and _forerunner_"-- that certainly
> implies that American Baha'is have work to do between
> establishment of the UHJ and beginning of the "Golden Age."
It seems to me that this statement of the beloved Guardian has to
do with emergence of Baha'i World Commonwealth which again will
occur at the Golden Age. After all, the Guardian was clear:
The Formative Age --> the rise and establishment of the
Administrative order
The Golden Age --> the emergence of the World Order
So, I'm still not clear (nor convinced) that there is any special
destiny for this nation to fulfill between Ridvan 1963 and the
time of the Golden Age.
(Maybe I should stick to the Babi dispensation stuff ... I can
do less damage there ... ;-}
love, ahang.
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:24:41 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: What to do about faust@eznet.com
Dear talizens--
May I make a suggestion to _everyone_ on the list that we all complain to
the postmaster@eznet.com. The stunt this faust character just pulled is
actionable according to all USENET regulations. I just got through
forwarding every single piece of the 400+ re-hashed messages to his/her
postmaster. If others are willing to do the same, an immediate response is
guaranteed. I therefore second Rob Stockman's suggestion.
Regards,
Nima Hazini
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
"In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 12:54:54 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Talisman united?!!
Dear everyone,
I would like to personally thank "faust" for bringing us
all together ;-)
take care,
sAmAn
=END=
From: burl.barer@wwwhbbs.com (Burl Barer)
Subject: Server crash
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 02:21:05 GMT
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians:
For those of you wondering why Burl has not responded to E-Mail, it is
because wwwhbbs.com, my local server, had a crash unparalleld in the
past nor, hopefully, will future ages witness its like. It has now been
a week and I have not received a single message, nor have I been able to
send one. I don't know if this one will ever reach you (sniff). Perhaps
this is to help me understand how Abdul Baha or the Guardian may have
felt when communication was all but cut off from the outside world...and
believe me, when you live in Walla Walla, Washington, *everywhere else*
is the outside world.
Burl
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 13:00:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Let's wait on faust@eznet.com
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
I completely share the frustration and pain that this incident
has caused to all of us, but as some one suggested, and I happen
to agree, this could be due to a technical problem in Eric's
email system. I saw his name in the header of many of these
messages.
I suggest we don't send any of these messages back to
faust@eznet.com, because if indeed due to some bug this account
is forwarding everything back to Talisman (at off-pick hours to
save money), then we ourselves will suffer once again with this
bombardment -- which this time has occurred through our own
doing.
I am glad a couple of people wrote to postmaster@eznet.com, but
if this is Eric's account or some other Baha'i, let's not crucify
them just because of some unfortunate technical problem.
I suggest we wait and see what happens tonight when the rates
drop again. If the same sort of thing happens, then suggest
taking stronger action tomorrow.
In other words, if this incident occurred because of technical
error of some fellow Baha'i, I don't want him to suffer, just
because we had to. I hereby annul the notion of "an eye for an
eye" in this Dispensation!
Its most unfortunate that all hell is breaking loose when John
Walbridge is gone. Perhaps in the future he can delegate his
list owner responsibilities to someone else during his absence.
regards, ahang.
=END=
From: "RUTH E CLARK"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:36:51 EST
Subject:
subscribe talisman
=END=
From: burl.barer@wwwhbbs.com (Burl Barer)
Subject: aristocracy
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 20:37:00 GMT
To: talisman@indiana.edu
S>From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
S>The Hands and their subsidiary institutions are neither hereditary nor
>charged with interpreting the teachings, so there seems to be no
>reason for including them under aristocratic forms of government....
[deleted material -- fine fabric, but deleted none the less}]
>context in which Shoghi Effendi is placing it - has to be hereditary
>and has to have effective governmental power.
S>Shoghi Effendi is saying that elements of these three forms are
>found in the Baha'i order. He is not I think saying that all the
>elements of the Baha'i order can be placed in one of the three
>recognized forms. If we really must find a parallel in secular
>government for the Hands and Counsellors, I would say they are the
>diplomatic service. You can tell by the special number-plates,
Sen, Juan, and fellow Talismaniacs:
Shoghi Effendi does say that "elements" of these forms are found
in the Baha'i order. Juan posted that he didn't know what the Guardian
meant by aristocracy. This might be a good place to start. You have
stated that it "has to be hereditary". I am of the current view that
the elements of aristocracy intended by the Guardian have nothing to do
with heredity, that heredity is not a prerequisite, nor is "effective
governmental power."
The elements of aristocracy (rule by the best) are found in the
Institution of the Hands of the Cause, Counsellors, and ABMs because the
members are selected or appointed on the basis of talents, education,
spiritual qualities, etc. This conforms to the first definition of
aristocracy in the OED. Birth, heredity, and/or station are among the
options for selection, along with education, talent, wealth, etc. but
the term is not defined by that one optional criteria. It does not
matter if the selecting or appointing is done by a monarch, a despot, a
university professor, or a democratically elected body for the
aristocracy element to be both operational and recognizable. Perhaps I
am taking a very simple view of this, but perhaps that is the view
intended -- the OED gives as an example of aristocracy the appointing of
magistrates on the basis of education. It is an "element" of
aristocracy that we have an "appointed" branch -- individuals and
Institutions invested with effective spiritual power, rather than
effective legislative power, and appointed on the basis of certain
traits and qualities. In this light, I concur that the Counsellors and
ABMs share in the aristocracy of the Institution to which they belong.
So, perhaps we can agree that (1) The Institution of the Hands is neither
hereditary nor charged with interpretation of the Text, (2) The
Institution of the Hands does not fit into the common form of
aristocratic secular government, and (3) The Institution of the Hands
does contain an element of aristocracy, namely appointment based on
education, talent, or other outstanding qualities.
Now, as for oligarchy (rule by Oleg Casini) or
Bunker, Archy, (paternalis grouchis) I have no time
to dwell on those because I must go fold the laundry, dust, vacuum
(ether?) and prepare for another exciting LSA meeting.
So...what do I have to do to get a copy of Sen's video in ntsc so I can
see his brilliance in action? The Aqdas conference sounds as if it
would have made Wrestlemania XI pale in comparison..perhaps it should
have been a cable-tv pay-per-view. "Wow! What a suplex! Rampagin' Rob
Stockman just clotheslined Indigenous Chris Buck while Arhang the
Invincible slammed Terrible Terry into the crossbuckle!" When is the
re-match?
Love and knishes,
Burl
---
~ OLX 1.52 ~ Lets all throttle Aristotle.
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Pharisaic Self-righteousness
To: theos-l@vnet.net
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 15:04:15 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
This morning I found something in the Edgar Cayce readings that
describes, IMO, the fighting I've witnessed on theos-l,
Talisman, alt.religion.eckankar, soc.religion.bahai, and quite
a few other newsgroups:
It was given, "Except your righteousness exceed the
righteousness of the Pharisees, ye shall all likewise
perish."...What was the righteousness of the Pharisees, and
what was their sin? How were the disciples to discern between
the righteousness of the Pharisees and the righteousness as
presented by the Teacher?...The righteousness of the Pharisee
was that as indicated by the prayer offered in the temple; that
he thanked God he was not like other people. Here we find,
then, self-righteousness...who is to judge as to what is sin
and what is righteousness for the individual? As we remember,
as has oft been given, "Study to show *thyself* approved unto
God, a workman not ashamed." Here we find much that may need
analyzing, looking into, in our own individual experiences. Do
we, as children of God, as seekers after God, have firsthand
knowledge? or do we accept only that others have told us? Do
we condemn any? Do we know, or is it only self-righteousness
that speaks?
Pharisaic self-righteousness, henceforth to be referred to as
PRS, is a nearly universal element in disputes among
Theosophists, Baha'is, Eckists and ex-Eckists, and various
other disputants I've observed on the Internet. The bottom
line message is always "thank God I'm not like you/them"
although it takes myriad forms:
1. Thank God I'm a believer in the Sylvia Cranston version of
Blavatsky and thus on the side of the White Lodge, and not like
those who give credence to alternative views of Blavatsky
inspired by the Brothers of the Shadow.
2. Thank God I'm a true believing Baha'i who never questions
authority, and not like those who teeter on the brink of
becoming Covenant-breakers.
3. Thank God I'm an Eckist who has genuine spiritual
experiences with the Masters, not like those envious
unbelievers who are incapable of any spiritual experience
whatsoever.
4. Thank God I had enough sense to see that Eckankar is a
fraud, not like you dummies who just don't get it.
5. Thank God I'm a liberal Baha'i who understands something
about human rights and scholarly discourse, not like you
fundamentalist anti-intellectuals.
6. Thank God I'm a progressive Theosophist who welcomes new
ways of thinking about Blavatsky, not like those fanatics who
attribute any new idea to occult "opposing forces".
And so it goes. Can we all say in unison, "Thank God we're not
all alike" and leave it at that? Guess not. When I look at
the world of spiritual movements in light of the injunction to
overcome Pharisaic self-righteousness, things look pretty
bleak. Not only can I think of dozens of instances it's been
meted out to me by one Pharisee or another (sometimes in the
scholarly form of "Thank God, if I wrote a book about HPB it wouldn't
have any of the contemptible scholarly lapses yours do"). I
can also admit that I have doled it out in liberal measure.
But what Edgar and Jesus seem to be saying is "you cannot
advance a single step on the real spiritual path until you get
past Pharisaic self-righteousness." Interestingly, of all the
spiritual teachings I've encountered, Cayce's is the only one
that seems totally devoid of PSR.
A New Year's resolution, then, based on this passage from the
readings: when confronted with PSR in a post or in person, I
will try to: a)recognize that PSR is the commodity being
delivered, b)ignore it if possible and respond to any or all other elements
of the communication c)at times give a comment as to the
intensity of PSR displayed, but d)not reciprocate by giving an
even larger dose of PSR in return.
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 12:56:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 6
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Given the evident interest in this thread, let's say a few more
words about ZH-3.
As you may recall, for the ease of discussion, we divided the
contents of ZH-3 in seven catagories of information, with the
first being the Writings of the Bab quoted in the text. A brief
(and inadquate) lising of these were shared in previous postings.
I like now to focuse on the second category, namely, references
to the Writings of the Bab. Note that for these, the actual Text
of the Writings if not given in ZH-3, but only the title referred
to. This tabulation will be of use to those engaged in
assembling a complete set of His Writings.
I should point out that a number of these Works are missing from
Denis MacEoin's "Sources for Early Babi Doctrine and History"
which is rather peculiar! Draw your own conclusions.
Also, I like to share the exciting news of the publication of a
1,100 page book on the Writings of the Bab and certain aspects of
the Babi history by Nusratu'llah Muhammad-Husayni -- a student of
Fadil-i Mazandarani. Its published by the Canadian Persian
Institute for Baha'i Studies and will be available starting next
week.
Now back to list of Writings of the Bab referred to in ZH-3. As
always, corrections will be gratefully welcomed.
P1: Tablet to Prince Bahman Mirzay-i Qajar
P10: Tablet addressed to the divines of Tabriz
P27: Tablets in response to Mirza Muhammad-Ali, surnamed Anis
P27-8: Tablet addressed to one of the divines of Tabriz
P38: The nine commentaries on the whole of Qur'an revealed at
Mah-Ku (currently not available)
P39: Tablets address to Aqa Siyyid Ibrahim Tabrizi, surnamed
Khalil
P41: Tablets addressed to Haji Muhammad-Taqi Milani
P47: Tablets addressed and in response to Mulla Jalil Urumiyyih,
one of the Letters
P50: Tablet in response to the 3 questions of Siyyid Murtiza
(Qazvini ?)
P53: "many" Tablets addressed to Mulla Ahmad-i Abdal-i
Maraghi'ih, one of the Letters
P56: Tablet of Visitation for Imam Husayn
P57: a prayer known as "dua'y tavvasul"
P59: Tablets addressed to Quddus
P65: Tablets in response to Mirza Assadu'llah Dayyan
P65: Treatise of the Letters, revealed in honor of Dayyan
P69: Revelation of the Persian and Arabic Bayans at Mah-Ku
P70: a Tablet where the call of Qa'imiyyat has been raised.
(Text is given in ZH-2.)
P73: Treatise of the Seven Proof (Dala'il-i Sab`ih)
P73: The Morning Prayer, revealed at the request of Aqa Siyyid
Abu'l-Hasan Zunuzi
P75: Tablet addressed to Haji Sulyman-Khan-i Afshar
P82: Tablets addressed to Haji Mirza Aqasi (Text appears in
ZH-2)
P89: Risalih Tafsir-i Sura Val-Asr (revealed for Aqa Siyyid
Muhammad Sultanu'l-Ulama, Imam Jum'ih of Isfahan)
P89: Risalih fi'l Nabuvvatih Khassih (Treatise on the Specific
Prophethood), Revealed the request of Manuchehr Khan.
(P96: Translation of Risalih Sahifih `Adli'ih (Treatise on
Justice) from Arabic to Persian by Mulla Muhammad-Taqi
Shahihrhurudi)
(to be continued)
=END=
From: mfoster@tyrell.net
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:29:06 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Various Subjects
Talismanians -
Since I sent these two messages to the list in the wake of Faust's
love-bombing , I have combined them into one message and am
forwarding them back. I wanted to make sure that Dave Taylor sees
this message, and I know that the America Online mailer has only
a limited capacity for messages.
- Mark
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Dave and other Talismanians -
Thanks for your note, Dave. (BTW, did you all get bombed with all
those old messages from Talisman, Noble Creation, Baha'i Intuition,
Baha'i Tech, etc.? I counted 450,000 bytes in about 90 minutes! Yet,
without that, I might not have received Dave Taylor's message, which
was apparently lost during one of my server's recent crashes. So I
must, at least on that account, be grateful to this individual.)
I agree with you regarding the social constructedness of sexual
to identity. Irrespective of whether there are any biological correlates
to homosexuality (and I rather suspect there are), the key is how human
sexuality is defined within the context of revealed truths. Obviously,
it is a complex subject and one which, I think, will only be understood
gradually.
From my POV, sex, on the animal level, *is* love. Like all things
physical, one's sexuality, as I think the Kashmir Shaivites understand
it, can be either a source of frustration and possible debasement or a
vehicle for spiritual transformation. In the dance of Shakti and Shiva
is a demonstration of the divine metaphysic of unity in diversity.
Femininity and masculinity, rather than viewed as distinct and separate
units, can be seen, in contemporary terms, as a holographic image. The
point of light is one, and the appearance of spatial patterns (diversity)
is merely an emanation or impression of that unity of light.
In what could, perhaps, be called a Baha'i "tantra," all things have
certain ideal relationships. Conformity to the gestalt (configuration)
leads to the expression of beauty (the emanation of the Ancient Beauty)
in the kingdoms of creation. The key for discovering the divine pattern
lies in the Prophetic Teachings (the inner mysteries of "the words He
hath revealed"). That, to me, is the challenge. Our present-day world
order is so remote from this ideal that the gestalt itself, the tantra,
has near totally been disrupted. Yet, rather than focusing *primarily* on
ameliorating the misconnections in the reality of outward appearances, I
would rather examine the inner dynamic which generates the externals and
attempt to work with it.
IMHO, gaia and all life on it express a tantric imbalance. What we call
homosexuality is only one small dimension of it. But rather than condemning
the generalized condition of dis-ease which affects each one of us, perhaps
we could instead examine the spiritual animus which is responsible for our
present state of self-addiction. What virtues do I choose to link with,
and how can my moral community, my 'umma, realize one of its primary
functions as a cultivator of spiritual qualities?
Second subject:
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what is being intended by the term
"back to Baha'u'llah." However, it is my understanding that by linking
with the Covenant (including the Master, the Guardian, and the Universal
House of Justice), we are, by definition, going back to Baha'u'llah. Why
is it necessary to make distinctions? Can't we just see these various
persons and institutions as forming a spiritual gestalt, and that by
turning to the Master, the Guardian, or the House, with the proper
perspective, we are, in reality, going back to Baha'u'llah anyway?
Warm regards to all,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*1995 President, Kansas Sociological Society Co-Moderator, Baha'i Announce *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: Donald Zhang Osborn
Cc: "Talisman@Indiana.edu"
Subject: RE: Genes/Homosexuality/Homophilia/Discovery!
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:49:16 -0800
Not to be overly pedantic about this , but:
A much-publicized recent study concludes: "the volume of the central
subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a brain area
that is essential for sexual behavior, is larger in men than in women. A
female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the
BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of
sexual orientation." [the study shows] "a female brain structure in
genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender
identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain
and sex hormones." It goes on to say "the size of the BSTc of heterosexual
men and homosexual men did not differ."
Interested persons can find this study which was done at the Graduate School
Neurosciences Amsterdam, Netherlands Institute for Brain Research, in
Nature, Vol. 378, 2 November 1995, pp. 68-70 with a related article titled
"Another important organ" <>
on p. 15 of the same issue.
Your co-worker, Hannah (happy at last)
----------
From: Donald Zhang Osborn[SMTP:osborndo@pilot.msu.edu]
Sent: Thursday, 14 December, 1995 11:40 AM
To: snoopy@skipper.physics.sunysb.edu
Cc: Talisman@Indiana.edu
Subject: Genes/Homosexuality/Homophilia/Discovery!
..............Fourth, let's assume for a moment that a team of doctors
makes a
breakthrough discovery: they have found the gene that "causes" homosexual
attraction in ~90% of cases. Furthermore, it operates by effecting hormonal
balance at a critical stage in a child's development (one manifestation of
this being the size of the hypothalamus). ..................
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 15:08:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Paul Easton
To: belove@sover.net, faust@exnet.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Out damned faust
I have received over 400 old Talisman messages from fauset@eznet.com. As
Much as I love reading Talisman, I have no interest in rereading all
messages from the past week.
If this continues I will send several tens of thousands of pages of
useless texts to faust@eznet.com and unsubscribe from Talisman. This has
been a major headache.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Paul C. Easton
_____________________________________________________________________________
HOME || WORK
________________________________________||___________________________________
2321 Jersey Street || UW-Stevens Point
Stevens Point, WI 54481 || International Programs
|| Stevens Point, WI 54481-3897
PHONE: (715) 344-4174 || PHONE: (715) 346-2717
E-MAIL: peaston@worf.uwsp.edu || FAX: (715) 346-3591
________________________________________||___________________________________
O Lord! make us firm in Thy love and cause us to be loving toward the
whole of mankind. Confirm us in service to the world of humanity, so
that we may become the servants of Thy servants, that we may love all Thy
creatures and become compassionate to all Thy people. -`Abdu'l-Baha'
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: Re: America's Spritual Destiny
To: gpoirier@acca.nmsu.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 14:10:33 MST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca, Alethinos@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
On Wed, 27 Dec 1995 Brent wrote in part:
> I think the Master refers, in His Tablets of the Divine Plan, to the
> indigenous peoples of America. Since these Tablets were addressed to the
> USA and Canada, obviously both countries are included as the recipients
> of this mission and this responsibility.
Perhaps a trivial point here Brent. Although the Tablets were addressed to
the Baha'is in Canada and United States, in actual fact, four countries
were addressed: United States, Canada, Newfoundland, and Greenland.
These four have now consolidated into three, as Newfoundland joined the
Canadian confederation in 1949. Don't tell the Greenlandic Baha'is that
they are not mandated in the Divine Plan. :-)
Tangentially, the German Baha'is are also exhorted to carry out the teaching
work. Sorry, I don't have this in my head, but it is probably in one of the
first three collective Tablets.
And finally, I believe only four peoples are mentioned and two of them are
given special attention. Mention is made of the Black republic in the
Carribbean and the French Catholics [in Quebec]. However, the indigeous
peoples are given special attention in the first collective Tablet, and before
that the Inuit are singled out in the first regional Tablet addressed to
Canada (April 5, 1916).
Loving regards, stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:26:40 +1300 (NZDT)
To: "K. Paul Johnson" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Pharisaic Self-righteousness
Dear Paul,
I liked your letter. The hardest thing is to not get spun off
one's inevitably sane and moderate and thoughtful ;-} axis by the PSR dude,
and I think your resolutions are useful tools for not only yourself ;-}
In psychoanalytic thought -- of course -- "the other" is always something
in "me/us".
Whateverwhatever..
Robert.
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Pharisaic Self-righteousness
To: Robert Johnston
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 17:09:33 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to Robert Johnston:
>
>
> Dear Paul,
> I liked your letter. The hardest thing is to not get spun off
> one's inevitably sane and moderate and thoughtful ;-} axis by the PSR dude,
> and I think your resolutions are useful tools for not only yourself ;-}
>
> In psychoanalytic thought -- of course -- "the other" is always something
> in "me/us".
Thanks, Robert, and apologies for using you as an example
yesterday.
Two mysteries about that "other"--
why does PSR in another resonate at a frequency that
immediately sets it off in us too? (e.g. why is it a
contagious spiritual disease)
why is other people's PSR often toxic to us, but our own is
intoxicating?
Food for thought
PJ
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 11:16:37 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu, anon@anon.penet.fi
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: ?
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 15:05:24 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Faust : Sherman's statement .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Sherman wishes it to be known that Faust is no doubt a nut-crazed
follower of Wild Pete the Bosch Squirrel bent on World Domination .
Sherman assures us all if Faust Strikes again he will considor sending
the Mighty Bobo his sidekick aka "The Shadow " to protect us all . I am
personally relieved our beloved leader is going to protect us . Of
course the feline anger at Faust has nothing to do with the slow
delivery of milk due to Sherman's Scribe deleting rather than providing
the liquid refreshment .
Kindest Regards
Deek Cockshut.
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Hastening Lesser Peace
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 17:00:23 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians,
Jim asked myself and others for our views on how we might hasten the
Lesser Peace. IMHO, the Major Plan of God, a synthesis of the twin
processes of *integration* and *disintegration,* is in the hands of God.
It is primarily the business of the Baha'i world community to promote
the purely *integrative* Minor Plan of God, leading to the Most Great
Peace. This aspect of the process of integration will gradually breathe
the spirit of faith into the body of humanity at a time when it will,
through the tribulations which will have lead to the establishment of
the Lesser Peace, be united only externally.
As I see it, the impetus for the Lesser Peace will be fear. But for
the Most Great Peace, it will be the love of God. Coming out of the
metaphorical battle of Armageddon, beginning with the first World War,
humanity will be unified through a fear of further suffering. However,
judging from history, fear is but a temporary salve. Within a short
time, all is forgotten, and people try to return to their habitual
inclinations. From my POV, it is the love of God, generated through a
process of mass conversion and the spiritualization of humanity, which
will become the stabilizing factor in world peace and which will
gradually lead humanity toward the Golden Age.
As to what we can do to hasten the Lesser Peace: There is a link
between activities within the Baha'i world and without it. By following
the directives of the Universal House of Justice, the voice of God on
earth, we will teach the message of Baha'u'llah to all the waiting
hearts and initiate programs which, gradually, will link the work of the
Baha'i community with the world of human affairs (the human kingdom) as
a whole. Implicit obedience to the inspired Will of God (the Covenant),
as it is channeled through the plans and decisions of the Supreme Body,
will also lessen the suffering which humanity is bound to increasingly
suffer in one way or another.
Bright blessings to all,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*1995 President, Kansas Sociological Society Co-Moderator, Baha'i Announce *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Hastening Lesser Peace
To: mfoster@tyrell.net (Mark A. Foster)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 18:08:15 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Mark writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^
Jim asked myself and others for our views on how we might hasten the
Lesser Peace. IMHO, the Major Plan of God, a synthesis of the twin
processes of *integration* and *disintegration,* is in the hands of God.
It is primarily the business of the Baha'i world community to promote
the purely *integrative* Minor Plan of God, leading to the Most Great
Peace. This aspect of the process of integration will gradually breathe
the spirit of faith into the body of humanity at a time when it will,
through the tribulations which will have lead to the establishment of
the Lesser Peace, be united only externally.
___________
RESPONSE
Mark, I think we need to start with the Guardian's statement
first. My understanding of it points to an intersection between the Major
and Minor Plans of God, in which the Baha'is CAN act as agents of
transformation in BOTH Plans! (Jim, can you please post this quote?)
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Hastening Lesser Peace
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 17:28:05 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Gee, Chris, that was quick! I just uploaded that message .
You wrote:
C >Mark, I think we need to start with the Guardian's statement first.
C >My understanding of it points to an intersection between the Major
C >and Minor Plans of God, in which the Baha'is CAN act as agents of
C >transformation in BOTH Plans!
I agree. I tried to get that point across when I referred to the
increasing interaction between "the work of the Baha'i world community
and the world of human affairs (the human kingdom) as a whole." IMHO, it
is our work in obedience to the Universal House of Justice (the Minor
Plan of God) which will also have a corresponding effect on the Major
Plan of God. Also, in a sense, as I see it, the Minor Plan of God is
really a part of God's Major Plan. The ever-greater involvement of the
Baha'i community in global issues will gradually link the Baha'i world
with the world in general.
Warm regards to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*1995 President, Kansas Sociological Society Co-Moderator, Baha'i Announce *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: All Moments Become A Mountain
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 18:51:06 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
ALL MOMENTS BECOME A MOUNTAIN
All moments become a mountain
That stands for a dream in the eye
When I step boldly into the sun.
This is the end of the end of our life
To become a presence kept deep in our eyes.
O Prophet of the Orient, O Sage, O Sun
Rising as a crown over Mount Rainier
To cast all shadows behind our backs,
I seem to be lifted to a vision of wonder
Gathered in tangles from under the skin. To be kin
To the pulse of the world, to the urge and rhythm of being,
I am more, when I am less.
The wind whispers of all that is there
from without. I tell the wind what is here within.
Were it not for each other we could not exist
Where we are lost, in the maze of a rising rose, afire!
I am composed of a lingering thought
That beams from the cranium-moon, slicing
Night with slivers of cat's eyes, seahorse shadows
of joy in a dance. I dream like a beast, of beasts with wings.
Our blood alters all things it must touch.
How else shall the night leap from a ledge?
Our courage is borne by the wind
As shadows spring from underneath leaves, into our feet!
All of my life the earth demands
I spin a golden thread from my silver shadow
And become a rock or pillar of ages, wind
That leaps forth to sweep over earth.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 14:06:53 +0700
To: "K. Paul Johnson" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Pharisaic Self-righteousness
Dear Paul,
Re:
>
>Two mysteries about that "other"--
>why does PSR in another resonate at a frequency that
>immediately sets it off in us too? (e.g. why is it a
>contagious spiritual disease)
>why is other people's PSR often toxic to us, but our own is
>intoxicating?
Food for thought indeed. Thoughts...
(1) PSR-dude is excessive. Are we making a case for "moderate" discourse?
(2) Remember when the Chinese used to call the Americans capitalist pigs
and imperialist dogs, and the Americans used to write of the yellow peril?
Both adopted PSR positions. Could it be that each NEEDED something from
the other or needed something like that which the other had, but didn't
really know how to key into the appropriate way of stating this or going
about getting that which they wanted...?
(3) Is it possible that it is about giving and taking? A rich man will get
angry with an angry poor man because he (the rich man) hasn't learned about
giving...perhaps. Just as the poor man will get angry with a rich man
because he (the poor man) hasn't learned about receiving... But who is
rich and who is poor?
(4) A fight can't occur if "you're" not in "my" neighbourhood. Does the
fact that we share a neighbourhood mean that we have something for each
other...? Perhaps we should both go to different new neighbourhoods... ;-}
Or perhaps...oh I dunno... Anyway...if we're both on our way to
paradise...will my perverse self love (intoxication) be reflected in what I
perceive as darkness (toxicity) in you ...? If I've got my act together,
I'm nore inclined towards inclusion...d'you think..?
Best,
Robert.
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 18:02:42 -0800
To: Saman Ahmadi , talisman
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Talisman united?!!
My question is how did he grab messages I sent to Bahai Tech, and my friend
David on Spokane Area Bahai network about his mother and sent them to
Talisman????
Spokane Area Bahai has the same address (eznet.com) as faust does....
(Spokane is a city across the state of Washington) Go figure!!!
Margreet
At 12:54 PM 12/28/95 -0600, Saman Ahmadi wrote:
>
>Dear everyone,
>
>I would like to personally thank "faust" for bringing us
>all together ;-)
>
>take care,
>sAmAn
>
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 22:15:09 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Spiritual Destiny
Dear All ,
A couple of quick responses to Ahang , Jim , and Phillip . More later
after I recover from Faust .
If Ahang is a peasant then I really am in trouble . Gosh a fellow
with a Phd raised in an urban area , fluent in more than one language ; gives
a whole new meaning to the word peasant . Then there is me , dont have a Phd
, speak only one language and was raised in a rural area from a family of
dairy farmers. Yikes !
As for hastening the Lesser Peace and Spiritual Destiny allow me to
quote from a recent publication from my favorite "infallible" body. That
being the Universal House of Justce on their May 19 1994 letter.
" . . Your commmunity's past has ben glorious ; its future great
beyond calculation. The Divine promises to your community are certain ; the
blessings of Bahau llah are assured as you strive to fulfill His purpose. The
wings of the beloved Master remain spread over you that you may succeed in
discharging the taske he has especially entrusted to your care. . . . The
Bahai community bears grave responsibilities toward the near and far future
as movement towards the Lesser Peace accelerates. . . Will the American
Bahai Community not see its chance to meet the challenge? Will its members
not once again blaze a trail that can set in motion a myriad victories ? "
As this is from the Head of the Faith, and as it refers to now, I submit
the destiny still awaits us ... Oh yes and the American Bahai Community by
definition includes some 12-14 thousand believers of Persian origin.
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 19:48 PST
To: Dave10018@aol.com
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Favorite Quote
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Dave said:
Here's a favorite quote: "In a post-traumatic epiphany reserved for the
mystic and the head-injured, he had broken the bonds and snapped the trap."
MO,p.25
Bravo to Dave for being the first and only human ever to quote MAN OVERBOARD
on Talisman. Obviously a new standard of scholarly reference, equal almost
to quoting Sherman, has emerged.
I am off to cause trouble in the playground of the stars...
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Burl on Oprah Winfrey?
To: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 23:11:06 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Welcome back, Burl! There's a rumor you're going to be on Oprah
Winfrey on Jan. 14th. Is that true? And have you sold movie rights to *Man
Overboard*?
I just read Chapter Eleven of *Man Overboard* to my wife last
night (her bedtime story!) About Raul, his very spiritual sister, and the
100 ft. whaler at Grand Cayman. I love the dour Norwegian captain, and I
quote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Phil watched the ship's captain pour himself another cup of thick,
black coffee.
"We have a saying in Norway," said the captain with the most dour
of expressions, "it doesn't take a lot of water to make a good cup of
coffee."
It looked more like wet tar than fresh java.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*Welcome to Crime on the High Seas!*
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 22:57:34 PST
Subject: Let's teach the b*&#! a lesson
To: talisman@indiana.edu, 748-9178@mcimail.com
Comforting as it is to know I am not in the company of saints, I do
note how many revenge plans were hatched in the wake of the Faust
blitz.
It eases the pressure on me because there is a Bahai person, whom I
wish ill and It's always bothered my how difficult it is for me to
forgive.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 12/28/95
Time: 22:57:34
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 19:55 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Your Boyfriend's Back
So, I call the ever affable Linda and whimper on the phone like a wounded
rabbit, begging her to tell her Midwesternly Conjested Husband to
temporarily unsubscribe me while I run off to Palm Springs to be famous on
the 6 oclock news/11 oclock news so I will not have 898 messages waiting for
me when I come home. Guess what -- 898 messages waiting for me! (of course,
half of them were from Satan)
Last time I give LW a chance to win a 6pack of Bud and an all expense paid
trip to Atlantic City, the Gambling Capitol of New Jersey!
I sent a couple two week old messages out -- better late than never. I can
hardly wait to wade through 898 messages ...
GOOD NEWS: While unplugged from Talisman, I actually completed
CAPTURE THE SAINT, my new action/adventure novel in which I not only sneak
in a quote from Baha'u'llah, but get in the name of a Hand of the
Cause...we'll see if it passes by the editor.
More later..
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 23:32:15 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: from the List Owner
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Folks, I am now back to the usual chaos.
1) I am trying to deal with the Faust affair. I have dropped for the
moment the two likely culprits. Please don't bombard the postmaster of
the offending system, who had nothing to do with it.
john walbridge
list owner
=END=
[end of 12/28/95 session]
Talisman emails received 12/29/95
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 23:20 PST
To: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Burl on Oprah Winfrey?
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
> Welcome back, Burl! There's a rumor you're going to be on Oprah
>Winfrey on Jan. 14th. Is that true?
No, it is a rumour started by Linda who is going to be on Rikki Lake that
date. The topic is "Is that a Shi'ite in your Taxi or are you just happy to
see me?" -- Linda will be the one dressed as a woman just to confuse viewers
who expect anyone on Rikki Lake thus attired to be a former male wrestling
champion -- but then again, I'm sure Linda has wrestled her fair share.
And have you sold movie rights to *Man
>Overboard*?
Have yet to see an offer or sign on a line. The targeted producer has the
film treatment, book, clippings, and a small shrubbery (not too expensive)
with him in Aspen for the Holidays. Confirmation dependent upon pelting the
Lord with prayers -- please pelt with abandon
> "We have a saying in Norway," said the captain with the most dour
>of expressions, "it doesn't take a lot of water to make a good cup of
>coffee."
That is a true Norwegian expression, at least in Britt's family. This
dialog is a complete fabrication on my part. But it is OK. I have my
literary license right here.
I have had not had time to read the 895 Talisman messages downloaded today
-- dear Dorothy Hayes is on the verge of leaving for the Abha Kingdom and I
have been at her bedside reading prayers into her ear and telling her some
of those "exaggerated Third World victory stories" I heard about on
Talisman. (gee I sound like some hippie/yuppie Florence Nightengale -- I'm
liable to end up on Rikki Lake myself!). Bless her heart, she (Dorothy
Hayes) loves the Faith with such intensity -- she may not know what planet
she is on, but she knows the Lord of the Universe.
Burl
>
>
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 23:38:28 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Burl on Oprah Winfrey?
At 11:20 PM 12/28/95 PST, Burl Barer wrote:
>>
>
>> "We have a saying in Norway," said the captain with the most dour
>>of expressions, "it doesn't take a lot of water to make a good cup of
>>coffee."
Sounds like the start of Espresso to me....
> That is a true Norwegian expression, at least in Britt's family. This
>dialog is a complete fabrication on my part. But it is OK. I have my
>literary license right here.
>
>I have had not had time to read the 895 Talisman messages downloaded today
>-- dear Dorothy Hayes is on the verge of leaving for the Abha Kingdom and I
>have been at her bedside reading prayers into her ear and telling her some
>of those "exaggerated Third World victory stories" I heard about on
>Talisman. (gee I sound like some hippie/yuppie Florence Nightengale -- I'm
>liable to end up on Rikki Lake myself!). Bless her heart, she (Dorothy
>Hayes) loves the Faith with such intensity -- she may not know what planet
>she is on, but she knows the Lord of the Universe.
>
>Burl
>
Prayers for Dorothy.. from this side of the Mountains...Say another book??
Call it Talis-antics...
>>
>>
>
>*******************************************************
> Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
>*******************************************************
I Read the book... Only 2 copies left in Seattle...
Margreet
=END=
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 23:52:10 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Linda In Washington DC . Donna Katich update
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians .
Now that my dear Friend Burl has returned I shall be posting Linda in
DC part two on Monday January 1st . Due to worrying about Donna Katich
and teaching the new course I have had no time and I wanted Linda to to
be able to read of her exploits .
Donna by the way has come out of her semi-coma and is starting to talk
we are all very relieved prayers are still needed .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 02:50:18 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Aborted Attempts ( "Jettison the Warp Core Jordi!")
This is just one small example. It is condensed obviously because the events
span several years.
This was during the "halcyon" days of the Youth Movement back in the early
to mid-80s. I was on one of the now obscure but at one time highly praised
and then infamous Regional Youth Committees. Actually I was on RYC 9.
Northwest United States - huge territory really. We, the eight of us were
always travelling. And, inspired by Counsellors Arbab and Schecter we worked
hard at establishing the first phase of the Youth Movement. And we did a
great job. We had built up, through various means unique to the Faith here in
this country a soild core of dedicated near fanatical youth - well deepened,
responsible and willing to lay it on the line. They numbered at the peak
about sixty. That doesn't sound like much but this sixty seemed like
hundreds. They would travel anywhere, anytime, to assist. Inner city
programs. To the reservations - hundreds of miles away, simply to be there to
serve a community Unity Dinner. Then they'd pile back in to the vans and go
back home to face midterms on monday.
And surrounding this *core* were perhaps another hundred youth that were
being drawn ever closer to the center. Later on in the Movement some of our
greatest youth came in from the fringe as we use to say.
We felt we had reached a point where we were ready to take the big next step.
National kept pointing us out to all the other RYCs as a role model. We were
the best. So why not step up to the next level huh?!
The problem of course was that no one, in this country, had ever done *the
next level*. It would mean becoming directly involved in the larger community
- in America. It would mean drawing in many, many new youth - most of whom
would be drawn to what we were doing but would not be ready to accept
Baha'u'llah. That was fine we felt. People can join us, helping us help
others, stand in the face of injustices and bring the healing and energizing
message of the Faith without having to make that big personal step. After all
that was their concern.
WE invited Counsellor Schecter to meet with us. It was a hard meeting because
we were looking for guidance from one of our mentors. We asked essentially
where do we go from here? We threw out ideas. And he was quiet. We thought he
was disappointed. He said he wasn't. "What do we DO!?" We pleaded. Finally
he shrugged (something he does very well) and said "I don't know; nobody
knows. But just do it. If you screw up we'll be the first to tell you."
Wow. An open mandate. So we began to think about what we could do next. And
we excitedly told National.
And that was the beginning of the end.
I had been personally warned by a dear friend who served on the National
Youth Committee when it was located in Florida that the *transferring* of the
NYC to Wilmette would spell the end of the Youth Movement. "It will go
corporate Jim," they had said. "when you step into the office there and see
them wearing ties you will know it is all over."
Before we were able to begin implementing our next plans we were told to hold
off. There were going to be a series of *big* conferences in early Spring
(1987). The NYC was very eager to consult with us about our new ideas. We had
been pleading for several months after the Counsellor's visit that we should
all (all the RYCs and National - perhaps the Counsellors) get together and
see what was thought of some of these ideas we had cooked up. We held off and
held off starting them. A lot of the youth were getting anxious. MAny of the
*best and brightest* had been considering going on Youth Year of Service like
some of their older role models had, (we had sent, according to the NYC more
youth on YYS then any other region in the country.)
Finally the big conference was called for our area. We had a gathering of
well over one hundred youth - most were *veterans* of several years of
service. The entire RYC was there. The NYC sent one of its members. There had
been many new faces that had come on to the NYC in the short time that it had
been in Wilmette.
The youth were already to hear what the next phase should be. We on the RYC
were also. It never came. When the RYC met priv. with the NYC rep. we were
given, with the perkiness that one can only see behind a perfume counter at a
large department store, our new mandate. No consultation. No listening to
ideas. The new mandate. The NYC wanted us to stress for the foreseeable
future the importance of prayer and reading the Writings.
That was it. We were dumbfounded. What about the Youth Movement?!? "Well we
still have that!" the rep said. "But what OF it?!" we asked. The rep
responded that it was felt this was now the best course. Supposedly some of
the other RYCs had gotten a bit "out of hand". There was fear that such
behavior could cause problems.
Half the RYC walked out of the room. They all resigned right there. All left
the country within months. Those of us that couldn't leave (as we were the
hosts) were numb. When this was presented to the general conference the
reaction on one youth summed it all up - she stood up and asked, with all due
respect, and said, "This is a joke right? Do you have any idea what we have
done here these past three years?! What we have sacrificed! Now what is the
real plan!?" At that point the poor rep started crying. Not a pretty
picture.
We all resigned soon after. I tried to have our ideas presented to Counsellor
Arbab who was in Canada. The NYC promised to convey our paper. When they
reported back I was told that he never commented on it, except to say "no
this will not do."
When the NYC tried to reform another RYC a few months later that RYC resigned
within a few months.
I knew most of the members of the other RYCs around the country. We were a
tightknit bunch. We had all been at London together. I never heard about
problems of discipline. There was resistence to ideas and some projects - but
there was no out-and-out rebellion. In all the years since I have never heard
of anything that would have caused the RYCs to be closed out.
The Youth Movement died by early 1988. One day you picked up and American
Baha'i and there simply was not a mention of it anywhere. Never happened.
It was a success in a number of ways. We sent out hundreds of dedicated youth
around the world. And we strengthened many youth; helped many communities. I
remember not to long ago being on a reservation. The chairman of the Baha'i
community wept openly at a public meeting in mentioning the youth who came as
strangers and who didn't just come once or twice but came regularly, every
six to eight weeks for three years. Not one or two but twenty or more. they
literally helped remodel and pay for a Baha'i Center (the last project to pay
it off was done by perhaps fifteen youth and netted something close to
$10,000.)
But in the "one remaining field" as the Guardian said, the Movement failed.
This is just once instance where I have personally witnessed a movement, a
beginning crushed. I am sorry that this is so long, but I felt that a little
bit of this story had to be told.
I know all about being silenced. I know exactly how Juan and Linda and others
feel. And I was very, very bitter. And I wanted to quit. But not long after
all that happened is when Counsellor Enello *popped* by. And that is when he
told this group of frustrated angry youth that until the Americans truly
understood the Guardian, lived, ate and breathed his vision for America we
would always be faced with failure. Words echoed five years later as David
Hoffman passed through the Northwest.
That hope of being able to make this vision happen is the only thing that has
kept me going at times. I have seen so many of my friends from that time fade
away. My bitterness changed when I realized that what had happened to us was
another symptom. And if we don;t deal with the disease it will simply get
worse.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 02:50:10 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Spiritual Destiny
I thought Terry's posting of the quote from the Universal House of Justice
was right to the point. I also let Christopher Buck know that I have been
looking for that quote regarding the minor and major Plans of God and how the
Baha'is could actually assist in the unfoldment of the Lesser Peace. For the
life of me (of course now!) I can't find it.
But I feel that so many of the references to what the Baha'is in America need
to do can be viewed in light of assisting in the establishment of the Lesser
Peace. The only quotes that deliniate the role of the Baha'is in that matter
simply state that we will not play a direct role in its establishment - and I
take this to infer that it is in many respects a technical (political)
process. So of course we will have no role to play there. But as to the
influence we can bring to bear . . . in reshaping the hearts and minds of
people, that is a whole different matter. That influence, though *indirect*
could have a profound effect on the overall process. I can't see, really how
it could not.
The world will get to the Lesser Peace one way or the other. It would be much
better if it got a helping hand from us. There are so many references to
exactly this type of action - in virtually every Ridvan message for the past
decade or more we see this theme repeated. As the Faith grows in stature it
is increasingly called upon to lend its insights into the difficult social
problems confronting mankind. Asimply stroll through *A Wider Horizon:
Selected Messages from the Universal House of Justice 1983-1992* will suffice
to prove this.
The quote given to us by Terry though points at something more urgent. It is
the same urgency that the Guardian expressed in attempting to get the Baha'is
in this country to arise here - on the homefront - and when the most
difficult victory. It is something not accomplished. It really hasn't even
begun. I personally have seen many attempts to get it going. All that I
witnessed were shutdown in various ways. Too scary. Too unwieldy. Not a nice,
clean package.
I will share a personal reflection on this next.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 03:17:34 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Re: Nothing special about America! (oh yea!) and other stuff.
Ahang writes . . .
I mean only to clarify the issue of America's spiritual destiny,
which I maintain is already fulfilled and there is nothing in the writings
which distinguishes the *current* task of this country from the rest of the
nations.
First, its not clear what is meant by "America". Do we mean the continental
United States (48 contagious States), or the entire United States (Alaska
and Hawaii too), or US and Canada, or the
entire continent of the Americas. I think as we read these various quotes
from the Guardian, it would be useful to ask which of these land masses is
he referring to because it seems different pieces are meant at different
times. So, I am going to leave this as an issue that must be dealt with.
So, I'm still not clear (nor convinced) that there is any special destiny
for this nation to fulfill between Ridvan 1963 and the time of the Golden Age.
Gord replies (with apologies to those anti-psychobabble folks)
It's been my understanding that the Tablets of the Divine Plan
"Revealed by Abdu'l Baha to the North American Baha'is during 1916 and 1917"
speak of the "Spiritual Destiny" of "North America" generally. The last
tablet is addressed "To the belivers of God and the maid-servants of the
Merciful in the Dominion of Canada" naming all the provinces and the Yukon,
as well as Newfoundland, (not a province at the time), Mackenzie, Keewatin,
Ungava, Franklin Islands and Greenland, (which has as yet not shown a great
interest in joining the Canadian confederation).
Regarding the question of whether or not "America's Destiny" has
already been fulfilled - good grief! I hope not or I've really missed the
boat. In this Tablet Abdu'l Baha says that "from the IDEAL standpoint
(interesting choice of words here) there is no variation between the
creatures of God" and that "there is no difference between the various
countries; NEVERTHELESS, the future of the Dominion of Canada is very great,
and its historical events infinitely glorious." Later he says "again I
repeat, that the future of Canada, whether from the standpoint of
civilization or from the viewpoint of the virtues of the Kingdom, is very
great."
Generally speaking, we Canadians are not accustomed to thinking of
our historical events as "infinitely glorious". But even taking into
account our national pastime of belittling our accomplishments it is indeed
hard to imagine how those "infinitely glorious historical events" have come
to pass without our notice. I'm inclined to think that those events still
lay ahead of us. On the other hand, perhaps we just don't know what's
"infinitely glorious" and what aint. I guess that's a distinct possibility.
It should be noted, of course, that this passage is immediately
followed by; "Consequently, rest ye not, seek no composure" etc. and a list
of instructions which are to be followed to fulfill that spiritual destiny.
It sounds to me like a parent telling a son or daughter "Look kid, your
going to accomplish great things. I know it. Just buckle down and do your
homework" - a conditional vote of confidence that may not guarantee the
kid's greatness but is a whole lot more effective than saying "Ah, maybe
you'll make something of yourself if you work at it."
Considering that Baha'u'llah makes a distinction between "impending"
and "irrevocable" decrees, I would think it reasonable to conclude that the
spiritual destiny of the United States, Canada, Greenland or any other
country is impending (on the verge of happening) rather than irrevocable,
(just as there are impending catastrophies spoken of in the writings which
we often assume are irrevocably decreed) Certainly, if those conditions
spoken of by Abdu'l Baha were met and if those tasks he assigns us were
carried out by all the Baha'is, that impending spiritual destiny would be
fulfilled; but to say that the Spiritual Destiny of America has already
been fulfilled, I believe, is self defeating. To say it is irrevocably
decreed, is vanity, (and will no doubt increase the probability of occurance
of an impending calamity).
Destiny is an interesting word. Like destination, it's just wherever
we're going. That doesn't mean we'll get there without having a flat tire,
encountering detours, taking a wrong turn at Medicine Hat, or having to
postpone the trip for one reason or another.
LBG's
Gordon (learned in Blah Blah) McFarlane.
P.S. Having just recieved, from my father, a 150 year old set of 5 volumes
of Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" which had been passed on
to him by his father 30 years ago and to my grandfather from his father 85
years ago, I have assigned myself the task of reading the entire work during
1996. I seem to recall Ruhiyyih Khanum writing in the Priceless Pearl, that
Shoghi Effendi was a great admirer of Gibbon's style, that he always kept a
volume of the Decline at his bedside, (as my grandfather did), and that his
writing was influenced by Gibbon. Perhaps one of you historians or literary
types could elaborate on that for me. I do notice a similarity in writing
styles. Anyway, having just received the books today, I hunkered down in
volume 1 for several hours and when I read the following passage in the
Editor's preface I thought of our friend Juan R. Cole.
"The theologian", says Gibbon, "may indulge the pleasing task of
describing religion as she descended from heaven, arrayed in her native
purity; a more melancholy duty is imposed upon the historian: - he must
discover the inevitable mixture of error and corruption which she contracted
in a long residence upon earth among a weak and degenerate race of beings."
One more thing - Several kind souls have e-mailed me privately to ask me to
continue with the narrative I began in mid December during a bout with
pnemonia when I could do little else but write. I posted the first 2
installments of that story - "Probably Some Cult in the Bahamas" (and) "The
Nightmare". My original intention was to post the peripety and denoument of
this amazing, autobiographical adventure in a 3rd installment of similar
proportion. I got carried away. Now I fear if I posted the entire body of
the text I have amassed during my affliction I would make myself even less
popular on Talisman than our recent visitor, Mr. Faust, who is responsible
for my having lost the addresses of those aforementioned kind souls.
Nevertheless, I will post an abridged version of the relevant episode in the
near future. I have chosen as a working title for this masterpiece (which
will no doubt eventually become a landmark in Baha'i literature), "Dodging
God".
To those of you who have read this far - Thank you.
Gord.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
From: "William P. Collins"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:50:59 +0000
Subject: Aristrocracy, etc.
The elements of monarchy, aristocracy, democracy, etc. which Shoghi
Effendi says are present in the Baha'i administrative structure, are
not primarily based upon heredity. Shoghi Effendi carries on this
entire discussion in "The World Order of Baha'u'llah" in the context
of Aristotle's political constitutions. Aristotle's model has been
shown as a grid with two columns and three rows. The first column
contains healthy constitutions that rule for the good of all, the second column
contains degenerate constitutions where the rulers seek their own
benefit. The top row shows rule by a single individual; the second
row shows rule by a group; the third row shows rule by the many:
HEALTHY DEGENERATE
One Monarchy Tyranny
Group Aristocracy Oligarchy
Many Polity Democracy (Mob
(Constitutional Rule)
Democracy)
Aristotle's schema doesn't per se require inheritance, and I do not
think that Shoghi Effendi was referring to inheritance. What the
Guardian was comparing was the number making decisions, and whether
their constitutional power could degenerate into the self-seeking
style of column 2. The Guardian's conclusion, I think, is that the
Baha'i order harmonizes the elements of column one, while eliminating
the possibility of degeneration toward the constitutional types in
column two.
Bill Collins
4705541@mcimail.com (h)
wcol@loc.gov (w)
6819 Stoneybrooke Lane, Alexandria, VA 22306
=END=
Sub: ... no subject ...
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 09:25:28 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
unsubscribe talisman B.M.Elsmore@massey.ac.nz
approve alkimiya unsubscribe talisman B.M.Elsmore@massey.ac.nz
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Aborted Attempts ( "Jettison the Warp Core Jordi!")
To: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 9:36:57 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Jim--
Your story brings to mind one of my own from the days of the
*real* youth movement :) of the 1970s. When I was in college,
the Shreveport, LA community, which had been without a center
for a while, agreed to adopt the apartment of one of the young
members as a center. It was adjacent to campus, convenient to
all parts of the city, and was already a de facto Baha'i
hangout.
Things went along pretty well, until one day the LSA just
announced that there would be no more Baha'i Center. "Why?
Have we done anything wrong? Please explain" we said in
unison. The answer from the LSA was "we don't have to explain;
we're not answerable to the community." We said "you may not
*have* to explain, but you *ought* to explain; we've worked our
butts off for this center and don't think it fair to do this
without telling us why." Their response, in essence, was "this
is the way Baha'i administration is mandated to work; if you
have the audacity to ask us to explain ourselves then you just
don't understand the Covenant." And that was that. We
wrote to NSA protesting/appealing, and never got a response. That was
the beginning of the end for me; all of us are ex-Baha'is now.
These people interpreted the principle that administrative
bodies are not *required* to justify their decisions to the
community to mean that administrative bodies are *required not
to* justify their decisions. In other words, as a matter of
principle they refused to explain themselves, which left a
bitter taste for a long time. Your experience with the Regional Youth
Committees sounds exactly the same at the national level. Somebody made
decisions on the basis of evidence unknown to you, the edict
was handed down, and with one wave of the administrative wand
all your dreams were destroyed. And you never got the courtesy
of an explanation.
To my mind this is a perfect illustration of the fundamentally
flawed nature of a system in which power flows from the top
down and is not answerable to those upon whom it acts. Baha'i
makes this explicit and erects it as a divine principle; but
Theosophy sneaks it in the back door despite an ostensibly
democratic structure. Right now there's a major rebellion in
our ranks that may illumine the problem and help end it. Power
to the people!
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Digest option
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 9:48:17 EST
Something I have found extremely helpful in reducing my mail
volume on theos-l is the digest option. This sends you one
long daily file including all the messages posted to the list
that day. I checked with majordomo and found out this can be
made available for Talisman for those who wish it, while others
can continue to receive message by message.
The digest option is the only way I can afford the time to keep
up with Talisman beyond the holidays. (For some, this may be a
good reason not to institute it). But in the wake of the Faust
mess, it strikes me that this option might be useful to many of
us. Perhaps for example Bill Collins would have been spared
his disaster had those 455 messages been one long one?
Please let the listowner know if you think you would prefer to
get Talisman as a daily "newspaper" instead of a steady trickle
of individual messages. John has indicated willingness to look
into this, and perhaps the number of subscribers interested in
it is a relevant criterion for deciding whether to proceed.
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 10:04:28 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Faust
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Honored participants:
The sinner in the Faust affair has fessed up. It was a combination of
a bug, a helpful tech support person, and innocent error.
Next time something like this happens, the zealous younger members of
the list should send a polite note to the relevant sysop, not bury him
in forwarded messages.
John Walbridge
List Owner
P.S. Occasionally it happens that Talisman is the sinning party, as in one
case where everything on Talisman was going in dozens of copies to a complete
stranger in England. I appreciated the moderation of his response.
jw
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 09:19:41
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: "K. Paul Johnson"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re[2]: Aborted Attempts ( "Jettison the Warp Core Jordi!")
It's too bad the LSA in question had never taken the principle of
consultation seriously.
Important to remember: in the 1970s when the Faith grew with
incredible speed, there were huge numbers of new LSAs and most of the
members had never served on an LSA before. Times have changed now;
most LSA members have served on LSAs for several years, so they have
experience; and thre have been several efforts to train LSAs,
including a body of training literature. So the situation described
below is *less* likely to happen now.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Aborted Attempts ( "Jettison the Warp Core Jordi!")
Author: "K. Paul Johnson" at INTERNET
Date: 12/29/95 9:04 AM
Dear Jim--
Your story brings to mind one of my own from the days of the
*real* youth movement :) of the 1970s. When I was in college,
the Shreveport, LA community, which had been without a center
for a while, agreed to adopt the apartment of one of the young
members as a center. It was adjacent to campus, convenient to
all parts of the city, and was already a de facto Baha'i
hangout.
Things went along pretty well, until one day the LSA just
announced that there would be no more Baha'i Center. "Why?
Have we done anything wrong? Please explain" we said in
unison. The answer from the LSA was "we don't have to explain;
we're not answerable to the community." We said "you may not
*have* to explain, but you *ought* to explain; we've worked our
butts off for this center and don't think it fair to do this
without telling us why." Their response, in essence, was "this
is the way Baha'i administration is mandated to work; if you
have the audacity to ask us to explain ourselves then you just
don't understand the Covenant." And that was that. We
wrote to NSA protesting/appealing, and never got a response. That was
the beginning of the end for me; all of us are ex-Baha'is now.
These people interpreted the principle that administrative
bodies are not *required* to justify their decisions to the
community to mean that administrative bodies are *required not
to* justify their decisions. In other words, as a matter of
principle they refused to explain themselves, which left a
bitter taste for a long time. Your experience with the Regional Youth
Committees sounds exactly the same at the national level. Somebody made
decisions on the basis of evidence unknown to you, the edict
was handed down, and with one wave of the administrative wand
all your dreams were destroyed. And you never got the courtesy
of an explanation.
To my mind this is a perfect illustration of the fundamentally
flawed nature of a system in which power flows from the top down
and is not answerable to those upon whom it acts. Baha'i makes
this explicit and erects it as a divine principle; but Theosophy
sneaks it in the back door despite an ostensibly democratic
structure. Right now there's a major rebellion in our ranks
that may illumine the problem and help end it. Power to the
people!
=END=
From: "William P. Collins"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:50:12 +0000
Subject: Faust apology
We sometimes have ready and hasty reactions to the things that bother us.
It appears that my posting about Faust was unfair, considering
that the party was an innocent offender. Faust is an unfortunate
name for a computer server... I apologize to the individual who
ended up on the receiving end of our annoyance.
Several of you were kind enough to suggest that someone in my office
would probably have a backup of my address list and files. Alas, my
list was only on my own PC, and I had not made a recent backup. I
have imported my own address list from my home PC, but it is missing
many of you. So I may not be able to contact some of you until I
obtain email addresses for you again.
Bill Collins
4705541@mcimail.com (h)
wcol@loc.gov (w)
6819 Stoneybrooke Lane, Alexandria, VA 22306
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 11:56:44 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: felicity
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Felicity visited us at the senior Walbridge home in Michigan's north woods last
week. More specifically, Derek arrived at the hose dressed in a UPS uniformm
(did you see on T.V. that UPS truck drivers are the sex symbol of the season?)
to deliver Burl's book, my Christmas present to my dear father-in-law. He
couldn't stay long - our UPS clad Derek, that is - because the truck he had
hijacked had to be returned before it was reported missing. He understand he
was very reluctant to give up that uniform, though.
With the book - which contains a picture of Burl - was a photograph of Sherman.
Now, if one puts the picture of Burl side by side with Sherman it is most
difficult to determine which or who is the more striking. I have also
requested a photo of Derek so that I can create a collage of the three to place
on my wall. Darts, anyone?
I was truly gratified to read my Talisman mail - all 683 messages - and to
realize that my presence is not required to keep the blood boiling. On the
other hand, I am beginning to feel extraneous. My venomous remarks don't begin
to compare with some of the delightful reparte of this past week's postings.
My contribution to all this debate will seem so unsubstantial that I thought of
posting nothing at all. But, then, I read Bud's plea for more flames from
female voices and felt that I could not bear to let him down. I seemed to have
pleased Gordon so much with one of my last postings, that it would seem unkind
not to favor Bud and others with my words.
So, let me offer a thought or two. As for Nima being chided for his "back to
Baha'u'llah request," I feel I must comedefense. I don't see this as an
attempt to belittle the station of the Guardian or the UHJ, but surely they
would agree that the inspiration that comes from Baha'u'llah cannot be matched
by the words of any other. And, while we all agree on very little, I dare say
that even Jim Harrison and I would agree that inspiration is something we need
in abundance. Baha'u'llah's words can release creativity and give telop as no
other words can. This is a matter of focus. The American community has spent
years working on administration. It has invented a rule-mentality in a
religion that did not stress rules. I see this desire as an approach to
refresh and revitalize the Baha'i community.
I was pleased to see reference to Christmas church services. We joined John's
parents at Church for New Year's Eve service then went to a party afterwards
where we spent the evening comparing notes with the minister whom we have known
for years. During the service he acknowledged our presence in church in a
lovely manner which was truly in a Baha'i spirit.
As the e-mail is crashing, I will just add one more note. Robert, now that I
am back, we can resume throwing the crockery at one another. For
heaven's sakes, you are part of this forum and it is not nice for you to
threaten to leave. Maybe we should all just settle back down to our usual
lower intensity of hostility and get on with the show.
Linda
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 11:37:39 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Aborted Attempts ( "Jettison the Warp Core Jordi!")
Dear Paul:
I am sure that many of us have stories in this vein. And without doubt more
than a few people have drifted away, grown bitter or perhaps worse succumbed
to the *perky-cheery-gee-gollywiz-ain't-it-a-great-day!* type of Baha'i.
Those last ones frighten me.
But lest anyone misunderstand the intent of my last post regarding this
whole issue of America's spiritual destiny let me clear things up.
It was not the Administrative Order that is or was flawed. Without a doubt
the structure is still developing and could consequently be described as
immature. But the fault lay and still lies in the people _within_ the
Administrative Order.
We have a poorly educated community. It is shallow (as opposed to
deepened.) It is a community made up of constituants who resemble in their
day-to-day lives average Americans. There is nothing to distinguish the Faith
in America because the Faith in America is throughly American. Even our
descriptor -*American Baha'i* says it all. We are not Baha'is who happen to
live in America, we are American Baha'is, (as if the Faith came in different
flavors and colors.)
What happened to you, what happened to the Youth Movement of the '80s,
what has happened to a hundred other endeavors - but esp. those that
threatenend to really upset the apple cart is the reaction of people within
the Administrative Order who were/are quite comfortable in their upper middle
class status.
But even beyond that because we have not obeyed the Guardian's
instructions and before him Abdul-Baha's. Our worldview, our egos are still
immeshed in the psychology of the illusion of America. We have not stepped
out of that worldview to see ourselves as distinct, as we were repeatedly
called on to do.
Instead we have done all that we can to accomidate the Faith to America.
It is a strange accomadation. In some respects the Faith looks like a
southern baptist church council. But overwhelmingly it looks like a
spiritualized version of the liberal-left. So much so that the Universal
House of Justice had to warn us in their *Individual Rights and Freedoms*
letter to America.
Our institutions have the problems they do because the most of the people
on them do not know who they are and what they are to do. They function most
often like any other civic group. They get together. They plan functions such
as race unity picnics. They deal with *problems* in the community and they
try very hard to apply principles that don't work real well and they wished
they knew why.
It is this massive denial of who we are, and what we are to do that has
caused our pain. Those that have tried to break away from the spiritual
chains have been throughly punished by a community that is unconsciously
terrified of the consequences of truly bringing attention to itself on
anything other than the most naive and unchallenging way.
And as this pattern continues - the pattern we were repeatedly warned
against with increasing urgency by the Guardian, we slip into a deeper
psychosis. The only answer is to break the pattern.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 22:50:56 -0500
From: Patrick Sullivan
Subject: computer ethics & moral theologies update
Comments: To: cei-l@american.edu, buseth-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu,
ethics-l@uga.cc.uga.edu, soceth-l@vm.usc.edu,
cpae@catfish.valdosta.peachnet.edu
To: Multiple recipients of list G-ETHIC
Conference Announcement, registration information, etc.
COMPUTER ETHICS AND MORAL THEOLOGIES
Co-sponsored by the Computer Ethics Institute
Washington Theological Consortium and Virginia Theological Seminary
March 6-7, 1996, Virginia Theological Seminary, Alexandria, VA
What can the moral theologies of different religious
traditions say about the uses of information technologies and their
relationship to human action and quality of life? The Computer
Ethics Institute, Washington Theological Consortium and Virginia
Theological Seminary are pleased to announce a conference
addressing this question. The preliminary program includes:
Langdon Gilkey (University of Virginia, Dept. of Religious
Studies), Keynote address
Audrey R. Chapman (American Association for the Advancement of
Science, Program Director, Dialogue between Science and Religion),
on the findings of a AAAS project on the human rights implications
of information technologies applied to health care, and the issues
raised for moral theologies.
George Randels (Fellow in Professional Ethics, Center for Ethics in
Public Policy and the Professions, Emory University), "The Church
in Cyberspace: Networked, Platform, or Stand-alone?" Examines
Stanley Hauerwas' Church/world distinction with the Church as a
Christian's primary community, and applies it to the context of
cyberspace.
David Schmidt (Fairfield University), "The Challenge of Hypertext
for the Turn to Narrative in Theological Ethics" examines critical
connections between hypertext and narrative in theological ethics,
and seeks to identify and begin to asses the most important
implications of hypertext literary forms for narrative-based
theological ethics. Also raises critical observations from
narrative ethics about normative aspects of the phenomenon of
hypertext.
Greg Walters (Assoc. Prof. of Ethics and Dean, Faculty of
Philosophy, The Centre for Techno-Ethics of St. Paul Univ.,
Director, Ethical Issues of the Electronic Highway), "The Canadian
Information Highway, Access and the Conditions of Human Action:
Reflections From the Catholic Human Rights Perspective and Beyond."
Implications of Catholic social teaching on the right to
information and freedom of expression, and human rights perspective
for questions concerning access to facilities, content and
services; how best to protect against offensive content, ensure
privacy, and address workplace and employment issues.
Late proposals for papers or panels will be considered, especially
those representing nonChristian perspectives in religious ethics.
REGISTRATION INFORMATION:
To register return this form to: Computer Ethics and Moral
Theologies Conference, Computer Ethics Institute, P. O. Box 42672,
Washington, DC, 20015.
Or email to psullivan@brook.edu voice/fax: 301/469-0615
Name
___________________________________________________________________
Address
________________________________________________________________
Phone/email
____________________________________________________________
registration fee is $35 ($25 student) payable in advance or on-
site. Conference begins with reception and Keynote Wednesday
evening, and runs 9am-4:30pm on Thursday. Conference fee includes
reception and luncheon. Please make checks payable to the Computer
Ethics Institute
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 10:26:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: 1990's ain't 70's
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
I agree with the comment that the current level of LSA functioning is
significantly different than 1970's by the virtue of having more
experienced members serving on them. I see other reasons too.
1. the huge push of late 80's and early 90's on having LSA
Development Workshops is paying off in *many* communities.
2. marked development of ABMs and their assistants allowing them in
many communities to advise the LSA on the right course of action.
3. National offices are significantly more efficient in responding
than before.
4. the believers are a lot more deepened than 1970's.
5. in urban areas, there is the desire of making the right decision
because otherwise neighboring LSAs will let you know, (peer pressure).
6. many LSAs are having regular deepening segments in their LSA mtgs,
and hence are becoming better trained at their duties.
In short, with all the (perceived) present day shortcomings of Baha'i
administration, its a colossal error to disregard the marked and deep
maturity of the past 2 decades.
The Baha'i administration does not claim perfection; it rightly claims
a positive rate of growth in maturity.
There are some very detailed statistics to demonstrate this rate of
growth. For example, during the period of 1979-92, the number of LSAs
which function properly (as defined by the 9 objectives of the House
of Justice) increased by 1,850 %. That's right! It went up by a
factor of 18.5 times. Therefore our claim that the quality of
functioning of our LSAs, on global basis, is a monotone increasing
path can be backed up with detailed statistics for every single year
and every single national community. A summary is available in each
recently published volume of "The Baha'i World".
Therefore, 90's ain't 70's.
regards, ahang.
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Aborted Attempts ( "Jettison the Warp Core Jordi!")
To: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 13:07:40 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to Alethinos@aol.com:
>
> It was not the Administrative Order that is or was flawed. Without a doubt
> the structure is still developing and could consequently be described as
> immature. But the fault lay and still lies in the people _within_ the
> Administrative Order.
That seems like an a priori assumption; can you really consider
seriously the possibility that the order itself is flawed, with
all the disturbing implications that brings? People ALWAYS
have faults no matter what administrative order they
participate in. Some administrative orders bring out the best
in people and minimize their negativity, while others do
vice-versa. (These are ideal types, all real organizations
being somewhere in between.) IMO there is an inherent
authoritarianism in the Baha'i structure that would require
members to be saints not to lend itself to abuses.
>
> We have a poorly educated community. It is shallow (as opposed to
> deepened.) It is a community made up of constituants who resemble in their
> day-to-day lives average Americans. There is nothing to distinguish the Faith
> in America because the Faith in America is throughly American. Even our
As an American non-Baha'i, I would have to differ with you
pretty strongly here. Y'all hardly fit in with the prevailing
culture.
> But even beyond that because we have not obeyed the Guardian's
> instructions and before him Abdul-Baha's. Our worldview, our egos are still
> immeshed in the psychology of the illusion of America. We have not stepped
> out of that worldview to see ourselves as distinct, as we were repeatedly
> called on to do.
Au contraire, Baha'is have a stronger "chosen people" sense of
distinctness than most other religious groups I've interacted
with, and less respect for our civil society and its values and
institutions.
>
> Instead we have done all that we can to accomidate the Faith to America.
> It is a strange accomadation. In some respects the Faith looks like a
> southern baptist church council. But overwhelmingly it looks like a
> spiritualized version of the liberal-left.
Here I REALLY have to disagree; as a liberal-leftie I'd say
Baha'i looks rather overwhelmingly OTHER :)
So much so that the Universal
> House of Justice had to warn us in their *Individual Rights and Freedoms*
> letter to America.
That seems to illustrate the same psychological phenomenon I
see in your conclusions-- thinking the solution to an imbalance
is to go even further in the direction you've already been
going. E.g. even less respect for individuality. Sort of like
Republicans thinking that making the poor poorer and the rich
richer will somehow lead to a perfect society.
snip>
> And as this pattern continues - the pattern we were repeatedly warned
> against with increasing urgency by the Guardian, we slip into a deeper
> psychosis. The only answer is to break the pattern.
Radical solutions are appealing in theory; in practice,
pragmatic "bending" of the pattern is probably more effective.
And of course the way I see the pattern as wrongly bent is
perhaps exactly opposite to the way you perceive it.
Interesting, your concerns parallel some of those being debated
on theos-l now, about which one participant posted yet another
parallel. We are debating a move by the national board and
president to increase control over local lodge assets, which
appears to be oriented to controlling what they study.
Therefore, if a lodge's studies are deemed insufficiently
Theosophical, the national HQ could cancel their charter and keep
their building etc. Some Theosophists say the society is in
the doldrums because lodges study any old thing and have no
strong core of Theosophical identity; others say the problem is
that there is too little freedom and diversity and too much
attempt at control. In this discussion, a Jewish Theosophist
of German birth said "this reminds me of us German Jews after
the Holocaust. Half thought that if we had assimilated more
and been less clannish, we wouldn't have been singled out for
persecution; others thought that if we had held onto our religious identity
more strongly our fate would have been different."
These parallels suggest that you are advocating one extreme
position, in a Baha'i context, about a polarity that all religions
face continually. How much unique identity, how much
assimilation into the local culture, is ideal? Depends on
specific circumstances, is about the only answer I can suggest.
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:26:22 PST8PDT
Subject: NOT MY FAULT (faust) + artifacts in Kerman, walking on coals
Hi,
My office is closed until January 2, 1995, but I came in to make
sure that an email avalanche on this account isn't bombing our
email server.
John W. has sent me private email regarding this "faust" situation.
I have no idea what the problem is, but it is not originating here.
I'm got the "faust" messages TWICE, once directly and another
time through talisman, so don't think I like what is going on
either.
My guess is that someone is away for the holidays, and their
email server got overloaded and went nuts. Or they set up a
filtering mechanism that was flawed or got corrupted, and
started automatically forwarding crap to us. Just wait until
the turn of the century and all the computer dates stored
with a two digit date attribute will cause massive failures!!!
Since my email comes through a direct "big pipe" internet
connection (meaning I don't have to use a modem connected to a
commercial internet service provider) into a departmental Netware
LAN server here at my place of employment (Student Services,
California State University, Sacramento), it is easy and fast for
me to destroy the bogus email messages.
I'm extracting the many 100s of talisman email messages sent
since Dec 21 into text files so that I can read them at home on
the antique PC my wife uses for wordprocessing.
The cross country skiing is great! Some of our persian friends
that stopped by during the holidays are wondering why I'm so
interested in the "ZH" stuff and discussions over local histories
in Iran! The persian/catalan couple that introduced my wife and I
were particularly interested since his father is from Kerman, and
that is where the followers of Siyyid Kazim (sp?) that didn't become
Babis settled, and became wealthy landowners. His father (prison 10
years after the revolution for being Baha'i) was asked by Baha'i
institutions to work with them to collect artifacts that may provide
interesting info regarding the historical development of the two
movements. He used to go hunting with his dad in the mountains around
Kerman, and when they were camping, they would see scary dervishes
walking on red hot coals, kind of like recent email?
Back to vacation!
EP
> Date sent: Thu, 28 Dec 95 13:00:01 -0500
> From: "Ahang Rabbani"
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: Let's wait on faust@eznet.com
> [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
>
>
> I completely share the frustration and pain that this incident
> has caused to all of us, but as some one suggested, and I happen
> to agree, this could be due to a technical problem in Eric's
> email system. I saw his name in the header of many of these
> messages.
...snip
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Gibbon and the Guardian
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 12:21:21 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Gordon McFarlane asks:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I seem to recall Ruhiyyih Khanum writing in the Priceless Pearl, that
Shoghi Effendi was a great admirer of Gibbon's style, that he always kept a
volume of the Decline at his bedside, (as my grandfather did), and that his
writing was influenced by Gibbon. Perhaps one of you historians or literary
types could elaborate on that for me. I do notice a similarity in writing
styles.
_____________________
RESPONSE
An example of this is Shoghi Effendi's dependence on Chapter 15 of
Gibbon's *Decline and Fall* for the paragraph on Jewish Christianity on p.
57 of *The World Order of Baha'u'llah*. I discovered this after I had
received a letter from the Universal House of Justice advising that I
study this paragraph. So I did.
My method was very straightforward. I placed the Guardian's
paragraph in one column, and corresponding statements from Gibbon in the
other. Once I collapsed Chapter 15 of Gibbon to include only the
statements that related to the Guardian, I constructed a nearly
word-for-word parallel. What fell into focus for me was that Gibbon was
more than a model of eloquence for the Guardian. Gibbon was also a source
for the Guardian's thought on certain matters. I dared look no further.
I wrote up my results in a letter that was published in the
Summer, 1979 issue of *World Order* ("A Forum: Concerning St. Paul"). But
my comparison of Gibbon and the Guardian was judiciously edited out by
Firuz Kazemzadeh. Afterwards, William Hatcher and I had a brief
correspondence over another part of my letter that was also edited out,
when I suggested that the Guardian was not necessarily an infallible
authority on pre-Babi religious history. (I had simply taken a statement
from the Guardian in which he states that the Guardian is not an
infallible authority on such subjects as science, economics, etc., and
then I simply glossed *etc.* to include pre-Babi religious history.)
I think those two findings got me into some hot water, so I jumped
out of the frying pan. I never heard from William Hatcher after I had
given him my paper, *Paraconsistent Logic and Conflicting Truth-Claims*
(1990?). Perhaps he was too busy. Anyway, I have not even dared to compare
Gibbon and the Guardian since, since I got the message that this line of
inquiry would be unfruitful. At the Aqdas conference in Wilmette, I
learned that Firuz and External Affairs had found my piece on
Baha'u'llah's eschatological claims in the *In Iran* volume to be useful,
and that the good folks in External Affairs liked my analysis of the
*Tablet of Glad-Tidings* as Baha'u'llah's press-release. As Stewart
Smalley would say, *I guess now I'm okay.*
So I hope this chequered episode is behind me. Ever since, I have taken
to heart BWC archivist David Piff's advice that Baha'i scholars (or whoever)
should never sow the seeds of doubt among the believers. This advice of
David Piff's constantly guided me in my writing of *Symbol & Secret*.
Which all goes to show that a comparison of Gibbon and the Guardian is
fascinating, but could only be pursued privately to avoid imperiling one's
fragile standing in the eyes of fellow and sister Baha'is.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 11:41:11
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Alethinos@aol.com
Subject: Re[2]: Aborted Attempts ( "Jettison the Warp Core Jordi!")
I think there are several sources of problems in the way Baha'i
administration functions on a day to day basis:
1. People sometimes prefer shallow misunderstandings of Baha'i
principles to common sense. Paul's example of an LSA interacting with
youth is perhaps a good example of that.
2. Lack of "leadership." By this fuzzy and sometimes easily
misunderstood word I mean a vision of where to go and the wisdom and
experience to get there. It is not unusual for committees of six or
seven people to lack the right combination of vision people,
implementation people, and communicators/writers. Some vision people
may not be good with practical stuff; I remember once interacting with
a committee that felt strongly we should plan Baha'i educational
programs for the day every Baha'i would have a computer at home. I
asked what about the poor people who can't afford computers. The
person's reply was that computers would become so important the
government would pay for poor people to have them. I didn't have the
heart to point out that after 100 years the government had not yet
gotten to the point where it considered *electricity* so important
that it would pay for everyone to have it.
3. Follow-through. People often get excited and get something
started, but the devil is often in the details; a good idea will
collapse if it is not consistently nurtured, and that takes a lot of
work, sometimes menial work (I do a lot of photocopying). This can be
a problem when staff are hired to carry out a committee's vision
because they may prove to be the wrong people. If they have a vision,
it may clash with the committee's vision. Or they may have no idea
how to do many essential things and are too embarrassed to admit it.
I have seen several essential lists of people and organizations
collapse because the people hired to maintain them didn't know how to,
and didn't want to admit it.
4. Communication. Good ideas have to be communicated, especially if
one establishes a far-flung network of subcommittees to carry out the
work. Each sub-committee will have its own vision of what to do, and
these visions, to some extent, may have to be harmonized. And this
must be done without daily face-to-face communication (which is still
the most efficient form). Maintaining a good plan requires a lot of
memos, e-mails, phone conversations, and meetings. In short, the
problemis in wearing neckties, as Jim's memo might have suggested.
Big corporations solve these problems by training a small cadre of
efficient managers and paying them enormous incomes; they pay middle
management staff a lot of money too; and the people who do the grunt
work are paid relatively little (though not too little in some skilled
jobs; the people will go elsewhere) and can be fired if they don't
perform. The Baha'i system eliminates the really high salaries and
even the middle level salaries are few (and in other countries, like
Canada, I think they are eliminated completely as well). This leaves
much of the planning work in the hands of people who are not paid huge
salaries, hence good people often have to leave, unless they and their
families are willing to sacrifice. To some extent it is hard to fire
people, also, if for no other reason than it may be hard to fill the
position (though hiring non-Baha'is helps; but then your salaries must
compete in the marketplace). Committees can do a lot of the work;
committees can do a lot that full-time staff cannot do, and can do it
more cheaply sometimes, but can also make a mess of complicated tasks
if they are not set up and managed properly.
And speaking of photocopying, I am now off to the photocopying
machine.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Aborted Attempts ( "Jettison the Warp Core Jordi!")
Author: Alethinos@aol.com at INTERNET
Date: 12/29/95 11:17 AM
Dear Paul:
I am sure that many of us have stories in this vein. And without doubt more
than a few people have drifted away, grown bitter or perhaps worse succumbed
to the *perky-cheery-gee-gollywiz-ain't-it-a-great-day!* type of Baha'i.
Those last ones frighten me.
But lest anyone misunderstand the intent of my last post regarding this
whole issue of America's spiritual destiny let me clear things up.
It was not the Administrative Order that is or was flawed. Without a doubt
the structure is still developing and could consequently be described as
immature. But the fault lay and still lies in the people _within_ the
Administrative Order.
We have a poorly educated community. It is shallow (as opposed to
deepened.) It is a community made up of constituants who resemble in their
day-to-day lives average Americans. There is nothing to distinguish the Faith
in America because the Faith in America is throughly American. Even our
descriptor -*American Baha'i* says it all. We are not Baha'is who happen to
live in America, we are American Baha'is, (as if the Faith came in different
flavors and colors.)
What happened to you, what happened to the Youth Movement of the '80s,
what has happened to a hundred other endeavors - but esp. those that
threatenend to really upset the apple cart is the reaction of people within
the Administrative Order who were/are quite comfortable in their upper middle
class status.
But even beyond that because we have not obeyed the Guardian's
instructions and before him Abdul-Baha's. Our worldview, our egos are still
immeshed in the psychology of the illusion of America. We have not stepped
out of that worldview to see ourselves as distinct, as we were repeatedly
called on to do.
Instead we have done all that we can to accomidate the Faith to America.
It is a strange accomadation. In some respects the Faith looks like a
southern baptist church council. But overwhelmingly it looks like a
spiritualized version of the liberal-left. So much so that the Universal
House of Justice had to warn us in their *Individual Rights and Freedoms*
letter to America.
Our institutions have the problems they do because the most of the people
on them do not know who they are and what they are to do. They function most
often like any other civic group. They get together. They plan functions such
as race unity picnics. They deal with *problems* in the community and they
try very hard to apply principles that don't work real well and they wished
they knew why.
It is this massive denial of who we are, and what we are to do that has
caused our pain. Those that have tried to break away from the spiritual
chains have been throughly punished by a community that is unconsciously
terrified of the consequences of truly bringing attention to itself on
anything other than the most naive and unchallenging way.
And as this pattern continues - the pattern we were repeatedly warned
against with increasing urgency by the Guardian, we slip into a deeper
psychosis. The only answer is to break the pattern.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:58:52 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: New book
I am still not getting my Talisman messages. Boo-hoo! :-( Hope you guys
are having fun out there. I would even be willing to put up with a food
fight, at this point. Can't wait to find out what y'all are talking about.
So, this is another blind message. But, I couldn't wait to tell you that I
have just received the first advanced copies of Kalimat Press's latest book
(taa-tah!) MOMENTS WITH BAHA'U'LLAH: Memoirs of the Hand of the Cause of God
Tarazu'llah Samandari. It is a short inspirational little book which
publishes the memoirs of Mr. Samandari's pilgrimage to the Holy Land as a
teenager, during the last months of Baha'u'llah's life.
The book provides two versions of his memoirs, presented side by side.
One is a translation of a talk he gave in the 1960s in Florida, the other is
a translation of his written memoirs. They include interesting variations.
Most powerful are his descriptions of the passing of Baha'u'llah, which he
was in the Holy Land to witness. I wish I could have included them in the
Holy Day book on the Ascension.
I believe that Derek is the only one who has read the manuscript, so I
will let him tell you more.
Those of you who have standing orders will get this book automatically
(at a 20% discount) in a couple of weeks. All others can sign up for a
standing order by just sending me an e-mail message with your address. :-)
Or, if you just want to order this one book (and miss all the great stuff
that is about to come out ;-), you can let me know that too, and I will get
the book to you. It is $14.95, and full of photos.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 14:04:47 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: Re: Kwanzaa is coming
Yes, that would be one approach. But I really meant that black Baha'is
should adopt Kwanzaa, with all of its ceremony, as their own and popularize
it in the black community as a celebration of interracial unity and
recognition of African-American culture.
That is to say, I think that we should not be afraid to engage the
culture in which we live, capture a part of it, and import it right into the
Baha'i community and its practice. What I think does not work, and has been
shown to be a repeated failure, is for the community to maintain a separate
and sectarian attitude toward the society and deliberately maintain a
distance from it by the use of our own jargon and list of taboos. So far,
that has gotten us nowhere.
Well, it has gotton us 50,000 Baha'is or so--far, far fewer than Mormons
or Jehovah's Witnesses. Sigh.
Warmest,
Tony
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
To: Member1700@aol.com
CC: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: 95-12-27 13:42:32 EST
Tony writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^
Anyway, as some of you know, I think that the Baha'is in the United
States should start observing this new holiday in our own way and simply
capture it for our own--as a celebration of interracial unity and a salute to
black culture. The time is quite ripe.
___________
RESPONSE
What would be wrong with re-dating *Race Unity Day* to coincide
with *Kwanzaa*? Just an idea.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 14:23:22 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: List matters
To: talisman@indiana.edu
As I feared, trouble broke out as soon as I left town. The following
are rebukes for offences committed through about noon the day before
yesterday.
Should any of you wish me to purge someone, I would greatly prefer
that you contact me privately about it rather than denouncing your
particular candidate for black-hearted sinner to the entire list.
With regard to Michelle Ma'ani, the honored members should remember
that this is a forum sponsored by a public university. It is not appropriate
for me to inquire into an individual's religious beliefs. Incidentally, she
was subscribed to Talisman in the usual way and unsubscribed after
her last message. I am not particularly pleased by the way she was
received on the list.
As for posting, at present anyone can post to Talisman but only the
members receive the messages. Over the break, I am going to try to
upgrade some of the features, hopefully including the addition of
a digesting feature.
My apologies to those who were delayed getting on or off the list by
my absence. I have to approve memberships, so anybody who applies
to get on while I am out of town has to wait until I get back.
John Walbridge
List Owner
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Gibbon and the Guardian
To: Christopher Buck
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 14:27:56 EST
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu, cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca
According to Christopher Buck:
>
> So I hope this chequered episode is behind me. Ever since, I have taken
> to heart BWC archivist David Piff's advice that Baha'i scholars (or whoever)
> should never sow the seeds of doubt among the believers. This advice of
> David Piff's constantly guided me in my writing of *Symbol & Secret*.
> Which all goes to show that a comparison of Gibbon and the Guardian is
> fascinating, but could only be pursued privately to avoid imperiling one's
> fragile standing in the eyes of fellow and sister Baha'is.
>
> -- Christopher Buck
>
Not having walked in your moccasins, I don't want to appear to
judge your decision, but may I question it? Or rather the
archivist's advice? Doubt is not inherently evil; some things
perhaps should be considered unquestionable bottom-line shared
assumptions, but surely that doesn't include everything any
Baha'i ever believed? (Like the Guardian's infallibility as a
religious historian) Mr. Piff's advice sounds to me like the
spiritual equivalent of the Brezhnev doctrine. Once something,
no matter how ill-founded, makes it into the Kitab-i-Hearsay of
popular Baha'i belief, it remains forever beyond reproach even
if just plain wrong? What is the difference between sowing the
seeds of reflection and analysis, and sowing seeds of doubt?
The principle you say you have taken to heart would certainly
have crippled my Theosophical researches and writing, or the
groundbreaking work of David Lane on Radhasoami, etc. etc.
Rather than your becoming *more* sensitive in the way described,
I think it would be more productive for the Faith in the long run if
Kazemzadeh, Hatcher, and Piff became *less* so.
A principle I have taken very much to heart is enunciated by
Francis Bacon: "If a man will begin with certainties, he will
end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts,
he will end in certainties." It came true for me to a degree
far beyond my wildest dreams, on the subject of the
Theosophical Masters.
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 12:01:12 PST8PDT
Subject: NOT MY FAULT (faust) + artifacts in Kerman, walking on coal
Greetings Blessed Ones,
Not sure this got through the 1st time, I had to
resubscribe.
(since I got unsubscribed accidentally, can someone
forward all talisman messages from yesterday and any
from this morning?)
EP
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
X-cs:
From: Self
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: NOT MY FAULT (faust) + artifacts in Kerman, walking on coals
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:26:22
Hi,
My office is closed until January 2, 1995, but I came in to
check if an email avalanche on this account is bombing our
email server.
John W. has sent me private email regarding this "faust" situation.
I have no idea what the problem is, but it is not originating here.
I'm got the "faust" messages TWICE, once directly and another
time through talisman, so don't think I like what is going on
either.
My guess is that someone is away for the holidays, and their
email server got overloaded and went nuts. Or they set up a
filtering mechanism that was flawed or got corrupted, and
started automatically forwarding crap to us. Just wait until
the turn of the century and all the computer dates stored
with a two digit date attribute will cause massive failures!!!
Since my email comes through a direct "big pipe" internet
connection (meaning I don't have to use a modem connected to a
commercial internet service provider) into a departmental Netware
LAN server here at my place of employment (Student Services,
California State University, Sacramento), it is easy and fast for
me to destroy the bogus email messages.
I'm extracting the many 100s of talisman email messages sent
since Dec 21 into text files so that I can read them at home on
the antique PC my wife uses for wordprocessing.
The cross country skiing is great! Some of our persian friends
that stopped by during the holidays are wondering why I'm so
interested in the "ZH" stuff and discussions over local histories
in Iran! The persian/catalan couple that introduced my wife and I
were particularly interested since his father is from Kerman, and
that is where the followers of Siyyid Kazim (sp?) that didn't become
Babis settled, and became wealthy landowners. His father (prison 10
years after the revolution for being Baha'i) was asked by Baha'i
institutions to work with them to collect artifacts that may provide
interesting info regarding the historical development of the two
movements. He used to go hunting with his dad in the mountains around
Kerman, and when they were camping, they would see scary dervishes
walking on red hot coals, kind of like recent email?
Back to vacation!
EP
> Date sent: Thu, 28 Dec 95 13:00:01 -0500
> From: "Ahang Rabbani"
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: Let's wait on faust@eznet.com
> [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
>
>
> I completely share the frustration and pain that this incident
> has caused to all of us, but as some one suggested, and I happen
> to agree, this could be due to a technical problem in Eric's
> email system. I saw his name in the header of many of these
> messages.
...snip
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 14:08:56
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: Talisman@indiana.edu, Member1700@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Kwanzaa is coming
Just the black Baha'is adopt Kwanzaa? Why not us white folks too? I
must say, I have become very fond of Kwanzaa. Perhaps its partly the
beautiful Kwanzaa t-shirts some people wear in South Bend (my wife is
a member of the Urban League Board, so I have many occasions to see
people wearing them; in fact, the Urban League is my main contact with
my own city!). Last week I almost asked to buy one of the shirts.
And the description of Kwanzaa's principles that I heard last year was
quite moving.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Fwd: Re: Kwanzaa is coming
Author: Member1700@aol.com at INTERNET
Date: 12/29/95 1:32 PM
Yes, that would be one approach. But I really meant that black Baha'is
should adopt Kwanzaa, with all of its ceremony, as their own and popularize
it in the black community as a celebration of interracial unity and
recognition of African-American culture.
That is to say, I think that we should not be afraid to engage the
culture in which we live, capture a part of it, and import it right into the
Baha'i community and its practice. What I think does not work, and has been
shown to be a repeated failure, is for the community to maintain a separate
and sectarian attitude toward the society and deliberately maintain a
distance from it by the use of our own jargon and list of taboos. So far,
that has gotten us nowhere.
Well, it has gotton us 50,000 Baha'is or so--far, far fewer than Mormons
or Jehovah's Witnesses. Sigh.
Warmest,
Tony
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
To: Member1700@aol.com
CC: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: 95-12-27 13:42:32 EST
Tony writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^
Anyway, as some of you know, I think that the Baha'is in the United
States should start observing this new holiday in our own way and simply
capture it for our own--as a celebration of interracial unity and a salute to
black culture. The time is quite ripe.
___________
RESPONSE
What would be wrong with re-dating *Race Unity Day* to coincide
with *Kwanzaa*? Just an idea.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 15:46:48 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: American Baha'i?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I do have to agree with Paul in saying that the Baha'is don't quite fit into
the American religious scene. And I don't necessarily think that is good.
Last night driving back home we heard a letter from a Baha'i read on NPR news.
The letter identified Bill Sears as the broadcaster in an earlier program in
which the host played an old tape with an "unkown" braodcaster's voice. The
letter from the Baha'i sounded almost like a form letter. It used Baha'i
jargon throughout and a worldview that would be quite alien to most Americans.
It really screamed to me how marginalized the Baha'is had become. This was not
a letter of communication. It was almost a sermon.
The case of the LSA informing the Baha'i that he was not to question the basis
of the LSA's decision is not something from the past. Postings on Talisman
suggest that this is very much the mind set of many Baha'is. To question any
level of the administration is tantamount to questioning the whole foundation
of the Faith. Yet, it is one of the greatest strengths of American society
that we can question - that we should hold those in power accountable for their
actions.
I agree that to be distinctive is desirable. After all, Abdu'l Baha kept
telling us we should do so. However, it was in simple, old fashioned virtues
of truth, kindness, charity, good manners, etc. that we were to distinguish
ourselves, not in narrow-mindedness and authoritarianism.
Now, I must set the record straight. My good name has been used in vain again
by one Mr. Burl Barer who has accused me of being untrustworthy. Truly,
everyone, I did inform my husband to unsubscribe Burl, but he does get
distracted sometimes and does not always listen to his wife the way he should.
For example, he did not keep the fire going as he should have - and which I
reminded him constantly - in the sauna, so that it was not 220 degrees as it
should have been when we entered. Consequently, the snow in which we washed
ourselves outside of the sauna felt awfully chilly that night. However, I have
forgiven my husband and hope that, by doing so, I will be setting a higher tone
of discourse for all of Talisman. I will even forgive - though very
begrudgingly - dear Burl for the dreadful way in which he slandered me.
Linda
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Gibbon and the Guardian
Date: 29 Dec 1995 14:30:20 GMT
> Ever since, I have taken
> to heart BWC archivist David Piff's advice that Baha'i scholars (or
> whoever) should never sow the seeds of doubt among the believers.
> This advice of David Piff's constantly guided me in my writing of
> *Symbol & Secret*. Which all goes to show that a comparison of
> Gibbon and the Guardian is fascinating, but could only be pursued
> privately to avoid imperiling one's fragile standing in the eyes of
> fellow and sister Baha'is.
I think this contains a very important truth about the relatinship of Baha'i
scholars to the community. From the examples that I have seen, primarily
here, it appears to me that many of the problems were caused not by the
inquiry of the scholars, but by the fear that this inquiry and it's results
would be a cause of doubt among the greater community. This reaction seems
to be compounded by individuals who feel that if their work is not publicly
available and acclaimed it demeans them.
I find this idea strange, tho' I have come to understand it, I guess. A good
part of it results from my upbringing. I was raised on a farm in the
40's-50's, which means even in Iowa, rather isolated. I was raised with the
idea that learning and critical analysis were good for their own sake. I
received my share, and then some perhaps, of sometimes scathing denunciations
of my ideas, particularly religious and social ones. ((I was resident
beatnik, beard and all, in a north-central Iowa town of 1000 in the 50's.))
I think my reaction was different from many others in my position because I
did not define my self in terms of these people's acceptance of my ideas. I
simply did not discuss certain ideas with certain people, and kept plowing
ahead in my search for truth.
It is my belief that the true Baha'i scholar, in the old senses of
philosopher and philologist as a lovers of learning and wisdom, will continue
their work irrespective of the acceptance by either the masses or the
powers-that-be; and that the best of it will be an inspiration to future
generations.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 13:43:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Gibbon and the Guardian
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Chris Buck wrote:
> An example of this is Shoghi Effendi's dependence on Chapter 15 of
> Gibbon's *Decline and Fall* for the paragraph on Jewish Christianity
> on p.57 of *The World Order of Baha'u'llah*. I discovered this after
> I had received a letter from the Universal House of Justice advising
> that I study this paragraph. So I did.
> My method was very straightforward. I placed the Guardian's
> paragraph in one column, and corresponding statements from Gibbon in
> the other. Once I collapsed Chapter 15 of Gibbon to include only the
> statements that related to the Guardian, I constructed a nearly
> word-for-word parallel. What fell into focus for me was that Gibbon
> was more than a model of eloquence for the Guardian. Gibbon was also
> a source for the Guardian's thought on certain matters. I dared look
> no further.
I think it was 1984 when one day at the lunch time David Piff and I
happen to be in the World Centre library and he showed me a piece of
paper where it had two columns: one was an extract from the Gibbon and
the other from the Guardian's and sure enough almost word for word they
were the same. The paper was singed by Chris Buck, whom I'd never heard
before.
Since this was the height of all the troubles in California with the left
wing liberal Baha'is and the LA study class, (damn troublemakers! ;-} I
simply took this as yet another attack on Shoghi Effendi by these
pseudo-Baha'is. At the time I put up some weak defense for the Guardian,
thinking that he needed to be defended by the likes of me. Piff was
wiser and said that I'm making a big deal and there is nothing here to be
concerned. He said this is not an issue that we need to worry or think
that perhaps it reflects badly on the Guardian. For a long time though
this incident bothered me, perhaps it shouldn't have, but it did.
Two years ago, though, I read Prof Banani's talk at Landegg Conf on
Tahirih. In this talk Dr. Banani was defending Tahirih against the
charges that some of poetry attributed to her actually belong to some
other contemporary poets.
His argument, which I can't do justice but in essence, was that this is a
western bias projected on eastern culture. He pointed out that the
concept of being "original" is one that has emerged in the west during
the Romantic period but in reality is a totally foreign concept in the
Middle East. In fact many of the writers, artists, poets, philosophers
in the east (and also in the pre-Romantic times in the west) did their
best to emulate the great figures gone before them. The took pride in so
doing. For example (my example not Banani's) by Baha'u'llah adopting the
title of "the Hidden Words" He is honoring the memory and work of Mulla
Muhsin Fayd Kashani, or by modeling His "Seven Valley" after Attar's
Conference of Birds, He is immortalizing his name. There are many
instances in Baha'u'llah's Writings that He quotes great Persian poets.
Right now, I'm enjoying an unpublished paper of Frank Lewis on Sana'i's
poetry in Baha'u'llah's Writings. Abdu'l-Baha quotes from a variety of
sources -- in fact He does so far more frequently than Baha'u'llah and
from a much wider spectrum of literature. In almost none of these cases
do They mention the original author. They didn't have to. It wasn't
part of the literary culture that They Wrote.
The Guardian was also influenced by the eastern culture. The fact that
he used Gibbon without footnoting is very much in line with the literary
heritage that he comes from, even though he is writing in English. This
is not question of plagiarism. We (I!) need not get nervous over it.
As a matter of fact, I strongly suggest a close study of Gibbon and the
Guardian, as I've advocated serious study of the Seven Valley and the
Conference of Birds, believing that it would enrich our understanding of
Shoghi Effendi's writings.
Incidentally, like Prof Hatcher, I too have problem with the statement
that the Guardian was not an infallible source for "pre-Babi history".
If one argues that he was not an infallible source for history, period,
well that's one thing. I can go along with that (though in my heart
don't agree with it). But by saying that he was not an infallible source
on "pre-Babi" history, then that suggests that the author believes Shoghi
Effendi was an infallible source for Babi/Baha'i history, but not prior
to it. In other words, the author is limiting the Guardian's
infallibility based on the segment of history being discussed. Hence, I
believe this is indefensible. Both Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi were
interpreters of the Word of God -- all the Words of God, and not just
those revealed by Baha'u'llah. Hence their interpretation is
authoritative and final on verses of the Qur'an, the Bible and other
sacred Scripture. By the same analogy, if the author of the paper
accepts the infallibility of the Guardian on history, but then try to
limit it to Babi/Baha'i period, he is at best on shaky grounds.
That's my fatwa for the day.
love and kisses, ahang.
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 12:44:20 PST
Subject: RE: learned in Baha..
To: Robert Johnston
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, 748-9178@mcimail.com
On Fri, 29 Dec 1995 00:51:22 +1300 (NZDT) Robert Johnston wrote:
>Dear Philip,
> Re:
>>Are you saying then, that, according to the Writings, the "Learned"
>>are those, and only those who have attained certitude?
>
>Briefly, yes. However, nothing human is ever absolute; and I
imagine Hands
>sometimes enter into conditions of soul where they entertain
doubts...
>
>Robert.
>
>
Robert, you've defined the term, "learned" in this way would change
the whole discussion. In this sense, "learned" has very little to do
with Ph.D., school learning, or technical expertese.
It sounds like "wisdom." Can a Ph.D. be wise? Can a Ph.D. be
foolish? Can a Ph.D. be wizened? Is there any relationship between
school learning and wisdom?
There is a kind of elite of the wise and certain and they act
differently than the elite of the "learned" in the more traditional
sense.
I'm not one of the Wise and Certain. And I don't know any, but I
have my suspicions about some people. I wish that when I was younger
I'd found some, or had the discernment to recognize some. I'd like to
think I would have made fewer foolish mistakes.
Masour, in his inspiring and humbling post, mentioned humility. My
fantasy is that the Wise and Certain would be humble.
Therre is a Jewish Legend about the "Lamed Volnic. "I think the
phrase means "the eighty eight." The legend is that, following the
story of how God promised to spare the city of Sodom if then
righteous men could be found, God spares all creation becuase their
are eighty eight righteous souls alive on earth. It is becauase, and
only because of their righteousness that the earth even exists today.
And here is the kicker to the legend. No one knows who these people
are. And they don't even know who they are!
(I love this story and if anyone knows a source for it, or another
version of it, I'd love to hear.)
But, back to the thread. These eighty eight would be my fantasy of
the Learned, the Wise and Certain. (Big Jewish shrug of the shoulders
here.)
I think this is a very differnent group than the experts Juan was
speaking of... at least, as I've always understood him.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 12/28/95
Time: 12:44:21
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Gibbon and the Guardian
To: pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu (K. Paul Johnson)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 16:38:29 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca, Talisman@indiana.edu
Paul Johnson writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not having walked in your moccasins, I don't want to appear to
judge your decision, but may I question it? Or rather the
archivist's advice? Doubt is not inherently evil; some things
perhaps should be considered unquestionable bottom-line shared
assumptions, but surely that doesn't include everything any
Baha'i ever believed? (Like the Guardian's infallibility as a
religious historian) Mr. Piff's advice sounds to me like the
spiritual equivalent of the Brezhnev doctrine. Once something,
no matter how ill-founded, makes it into the Kitab-i-Hearsay of
popular Baha'i belief, it remains forever beyond reproach even
if just plain wrong? What is the difference between sowing the
seeds of reflection and analysis, and sowing seeds of doubt?
__________________
RESPONSE
A fair question, and a thoughtful post I must say.
What I think David Piff--the master of Kitab-i-Hearsay (since he's
writing his dissertation on it, or so I hear say)--meant was not the
suppression of truth, but the responsible expression of it. Call it a
*morality of knowledge*, if you will.
Is this moral discourse? No, it is discourse that is moral.
I'm concerned not only with what I say, but how I say it. With the
same information, I can shock or enthrall, criticize or sophisticate,
debunk or refine. I can fold, spindle or mutilate, or offer a gift as if
to a king.
In terms of a model for this, whoever the individual *Learned in
Baha'* are (apart from the Institution of the Learned), ideally they are
characterized by a unitive exercise of speech, as a reflex of wisdom. Lest
the arrow of elitism strike me in the heart, for all to see in the
cyberspace colosseum, I hasten to add that the same, of course, applies to us
all.
In the untranslated *Tablet of Unity* (Lawh-i Ittihad)--one of
several Tablets known by this name--Baha'u'llah speaks of *Unity in Speech*
(ittihad dar quul). It has three dimensions: (1) harmony of discourse; (2)
harmony of word and deed; (3) harmony of word and wisdom (my personal
interpretation of this passage).
Really what this all boils down to, in secular terms, is the
tension between academic freedom and social responsibility. The debate
continues in Canada over professors who violate or challenge fundamental
social values. I write within a web of values. I don't want to get caught
in that web, or else the arachnid of propriety will, with its nitid
chitin, consign me to my fate as an irresponsible writer.
I can best safeguard my academic freedom if I nuance my research in
a way that people can handle. I can present the results of my research in
non-threatening ways, without compromise. I edit myself. Then review
(Baha'i or peer review) edits me. Then my editors (Tony Lee, Dr. Peter Morgan,
and others) edit me. Then readers edit me. By the time all is said and
done, I have done what I have said: I have presented my findings in the
most prudent way I can, with the help of ghostwriters.
If the pen is duly pensive, the quill will have less of a barb.
Let the ink, think.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 15:27:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Kerman
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Eric wrote:
> The persian/catalan couple that introduced my wife and I were
> particularly interested since his father is from Kerman, and
> that is where the followers of Siyyid Kazim (sp?) that didn't
> become Babis settled, and became wealthy landowners. His father
> (prison 10 years after the revolution for being Baha'i) was
> asked by Baha'i institutions to work with them to collect
> artifacts that may provide interesting info regarding the
> historical development of the two movements.
Welcome back Eric.
Actually Haj Muhammad-Karim Khan who claimed successorship to
Siyyid Kazim and has his base in Kerman, was already quite rich.
His father is Ibrahim Khan-i Zahiru'd-Dawlih, a cousin of
Fath-Ali Shah who was given the governership of Kerman and in the
process, as all good Governors do, became extremely wealthy. So,
his infamous son, Haj Muhammad-Karim Khan (who used the penname
Athim (the sinner) -- a very appropriate title!) was already very
wealthy.
Incidentally, he is the only person to my knowledge who is
mentioned and condemned in 3 separate Dispensations!
More importantly, your friends are right and a great deal of
information is being collected in Kerman area of tremendous
value. As one example, recently a 150 page manuscript was
located where two brothers (who later broke the Covenant and
became Azalis) narrate the arrival of Quddus in Kerman and his
encounters with Haj Muhammad-Karim Khan, etc. The vivid
description that these two brothers have left us as to the
spiritual character and quality of Quddus is one that is beyond
description. They provide us with many wonderful insights in the
character of Quddus and His piety.
love, ahang.
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Persian Terms for Seven Candles?
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 17:58:48 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Three Research Questions
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(1) What are the Persian terms for the Master's *Seven Candles
of Unity"? (Please provide references!)
(2) How many types of unity are identified in Baha'u'llah's
and `Abdu'l-Baha's writings?
(3) How many kinds of Paradises are there in the Writings?
With best wishes to all for a happy New Year,
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 16:22 PST
To: bahai-announce@bcca.org
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Passing of Dorothy Hayes
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Dorothy Hayes, dedicated Baha'i since her childhood, passed away peacefully
at 1:09am Friday morning here in Walla Walla. Burial was at 2:30pm this
afternoon. Dorothy pioneered to Iceland and many homefront locales and
served on the LSA of Walla Walla, Washington for many years. Memorial
service will be held on Saturday, one week from tomorrow at 310 Whitman in
Walla Walla, Washington. If you knew Dorothy and plan to attend
or need more information, feel free to call us at (509) 525-7177.
Prayers for her soul are requested.
Burl Barer
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 95 00:15:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Spiritual Destiny
>First, its not clear what is meant by "America".
Yes, the Guardian refers to different chunks of the continent(s) at
different times, but in reference to America's spiritual destiny I think
he's referring to the continental U.S. and Canada. Both _Tablets of the
Divine Plan_ and _The Advent of Divine Justice_ (which I think of as the
Guardian's follow-up-- the "how" to the "what" of the Tablets) are addressed
specifically to the Baha'is of the United States and Canada (Alaska and
Hawaii weren't yet states, and, last time I checked they had their own
NSA's, so i _think_, possibly incorrectly, that they're separate entities).
>It seems to me that this statement of the beloved Guardian has to
>do with emergence of Baha'i World Commonwealth which again will
>occur at the Golden Age.
I think this is the main point on which we differ. You seem to be saying
(and correct me if I misunderstand you) that the Golden Age will pop into
being all at once (like Boticelli's Venus rising from the sea? ), after
a lapse of a few centuries. I, on the other hand, see it as the culmination
of a process. Shoghi Effendi refers over and over again to evolution, seeds
which must be nurtured, "champion-builders," etc. (I found far too many
references to quote here, but a quick flip-through of the index to _The
World Order of Baha'u'llah_ should help you find a bunch of them).
The UHJ apparently also sees a continuing role for the American Baha'i
community in this process:
"You are a community of victors; you occupy the front ranks of Baha'u'llah's
invincible army of light; indeed, you must remain in the vanguard of its
thrust." Ridvan 1984 letter to the Baha'is of the United States, found in
_A Wider Horizon: Selected Messages of the Universal House of Justice
1983-1992_, p.25 and p.215
{"AS COMMUNITY ESPECIALLY ENDOWED BY BELOVED MASTER'S DIVINE PLAN WITH
UNUSUAL POTENTIALITIES YOU CONTINUE TO BEAR EXTRAORDINARY RESPONSIBILITIES{..."
Cable, Nov. 11, 1986; _A Wider Horizon..._, pp.217-18
"The determination of your National Spiritual Assembly and your ready
acceptance to pursue a campaign to promote racial unity in your country are
of critical importance to the advancement of the Cause in America and to
the ultimate success of your country in fulfilling the world-transforming
mission foreshadowed for it..." April 1991; _A Wider Horizon..._, p.220
Anyhow, that convinces _me_!
On a somewhat related subject, someone {(I forget who, sorry) was asking
recently about the role of Native Americans. I found this while rereading
the Tablets:
"You must attach great importance to the Indians, the original inhabitants
of America. For these souls may be likened unto the ancient inhabitants
of the Arabian Peninsula, who, prior to the Revelation of Muhammad, were
like savages. When the Muhammadan Light shone forth in their midst, they
became so enkindled that they shed illumination upon the world. Likewise,
should these Indians be educated and properly guided, there can be no
doubt that through the Divine teachings they will become so enlightened
that the whole earth will be illumined." 'Abdu'l-Baha, _Tablets of the
Divine Plan_, pp.32-33
Well, my fingers are about worn out now ("and about time!" all chorused).
Later, Leigh
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: The Guardian and Gibbon
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 18:29:30 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
Regarding Shoghi Effendi's possible use of material from _The
Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire_, I think that, like many things,
it mostly depends on how it is explained. Therefore, if one suspects
that certain people might have a resistance to a particular idea in a
book, journal article, etc., rather than not introducing it at all, one
might instead think of how one might express it by analogy to something
which they may already accept.
I especially liked Ahang's approach of comparing the possible
incorporation of Gibbon's material by the Guardian to Baha'u'llah
adopting the essential structure, and much of the content, of Attar's
_Conference of the Birds_ in His, _The Seven Valleys_. What this
approach does is to build a thought bridge between something which
people might already acknowledge (such as, possibly, members of a Baha'i
reviewing committee) and a new idea - like Chris's discovery of the
Guardian's use of Gibbon's material.
One might also refer to Ruhiyyih Khanum's statement in _The
Priceless Pearl_ that that the Guardian's two favorite English-language
books were Gibbon's history and the Authorized (or "King James," as it
usually called in the States) Version of the Bible.
Again, I think that the issue is not *always* the presentation of
new material but the way in which it is explained to others.
Warm greetings to all,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (List Co-Moderator) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 19:54:09 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Destiny and Gibbon
Dear All ,
After reading Jim's two recent posts I better understand what he is
saying and why . perhaps it is a case of getting inside his "language -
game." as Wittgenstein would say .
Jim's posts have had a powerful impact on me that I have not yet
digested . Along with Chris's post on Gibbon I am reeling at the moment
trying to understand how to sort out the meaning of being a Bahai . It is
this descent into "chaos" that I both welcome and find so painful . How did
this glorious Vision of Baha u llah come to such a state ? Why do we
continually speak in a language that the world barely undestands and that
marginalizes large segments of our own community? I am at a loss for the
moment so its back to my Maiden and Epistle and Wittgenstein for a little
consultation.
One of Jims comments struck me so with a reference to Marin Luther King
as relying on "divine assistance " . having met the man and listened to him
speak in a quasi strategy session as a teenager I was most impressed by his
reliance on two things the power of divine assistance and his belief in the
capacity of ordinary people to access that assistance ; their capacity for
spiritual trancendence.
When I contemplate movemenrts of the 20th century something stands out
and this is my miniscule thought on what TO DO at this point . Both Ghandi
and King started where people lived ; they confirmed the best of their
tradition and re-appropriated "symbols " with which people were familiar .
Then they wrapped those symbols in a larger context that pinted to
atrancendent and transformative possibility . They were able to empower folks
as we might say today . They always grounded their thoughts and actions in
an attempt to confirm that Trancendence in the Immanent realities of everyday
life . To steak from Ibn Arabi again they demonstrated fro people how to
stand in and recognize the"Presence of Being."
Contrast that with another movement of the 20th century Vladimar Lenin's
communism . Lenin also understood you have to begin where people live .
Lenin however asumed that the "soviets" as the vanguard of the proleteriat
as a centralized deomocracy would and could do it for the people . He also
did not call on the power of divine assistance not did he believe in the
capacity of ordinary people to rise to the challenge. The net result was a
totalitarian nightmare .
I would hope that whatever "we" "do" that we can learn from the Ghandi's
and Kings' of the world . Too often it seems we unwittingly take on Lenins
model and then wonder why "we" have not been successful .
At the moment this means to me that a "movement " will have to begin in
local communities and create networks of support from it . I am sure
National Youth conferences are a great time and much like sales conference
fire up the tropps but quickly die . This is , I believe , because the
activity is not grounded in a living community and has so little relationship
to where people actually live . Any way I am still recovering from the
positive shock value of Jim and Chris's posts . Back after a little inner
consultation.
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 18:16:13 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: The Guardian and Gibbon
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians .
I thought the matter of the Guardian and Gibbon was settled sometime
ago on this list . I will repeat again what I posted then . As a Baha'i
Youth in the UK in the early 60's I was told to read in fact get my own
copy of Gibbon < I have two complete sets > and read the Guardian's
favourite historian and gain an understanding of some parts of His
thinking . Christopher found something by himself that I was given as
an automatic indeed normal understanding . The Guardian did use Gibbon
the books were on his bedside table , how much more do we need to know
. The books you refer to were not books but letters you do not give
references sources in a letter .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 17:14:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Tahirih
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Milissa,
You wrote:
>But this brings me to a question prompted by your reference to Tahirih and
>is another example of Shoghi Effendi as a historian. Shoghi Effendi relates
>that, right before her death, Tahirih exclaimed "You can kill me as soon as
>you like, but you can never stop the emancipation of women!"
>Do you know how Shoghi Effendi knew this? Denis MacEoin noted that the
>only other eyewitness was a doctor (McCormick??) and he did not relate her
>saying this. I know that MacEoin's point is that the Bahais are reading
>one of their own principles (equality) back into Babi history. And then
>Amanat makes the point that there is nothing in her writing to suggest that
>she was a "suffragette" or feminist. But Shoghi Effendi refers to her as
>such and uses her last words as proof.
>At any rate, believe me I want to believe that she really said this!!
>So can you help me out here? Was Tahirih's last words preserved in an oral
>tradition or is there any contemporary (written) evidence prior to Shoghi
>Effendi that would back him up? Please note I don't think Shoghi Effendi
>needs my help either, but how could I prove to a non-Baha'i that she really
>said it. After all, they won't take Shoghi Effendi's word for it :(
I hope that you don't mind I reply on Talisman, as I'm hoping that
Juan or John can add to it, as I'm very curious about it too.
The main difficulty is that, to my knowledge, there are no
manuscripts on Tahirih's last 3 or 4 years. We know almost nothing
post-Badasht about her, except the very little that Nabil relates.
And then Nabil is very guarded as to his source for information of
her martyrdom. He doesn't reveal his source, where all along in his
narrative he'd been very careful to identify his sources. Why? Why
should Nabil be so guarded about this one case? (I've tentatively
worked out a theory on the chain of events and Nabil's potential
source which must discuss at some other time.) But clearly Nabil was
not the source of the "feminist" characterization on Tahirih. And as
I recall the Kalantar's son who reports back on Tahirih's martyrdom
makes no such statement about her last words.
On page 75 of GPB, the Guardian quotes from a number Western writes
where they all characterize her as a feminist. I believe in this
regard, those are the sources for Shoghi Effendi's comments.
Further, Amanat is right, there is nothing in her published writings
that would indicate equality of sexes was so central to her belief
system. (I think Juan had a nice posting on this a while ago.)
But I would also caution against hasty conclusions. The vast
majority of her writings are not accessible right now and neither are
many historical manuscripts which may shed some light on these
issues. A serious study must await the release of these documents by
the World Centre.
As much as has been written about Tahirih, its amazing that no
systematic study of her writings has ever been attempted -- though
Landegg Conf was a good beginning.
> Did I read a post that stated Tahirih's poetry is going to be
> published soon? And do you know where the Ilkani garden is? Is
> Tahirih still buried in that well or was she moved? I hope to go
> there one of these days. And is there anyone around who is her
> descendant?
Prof Amin Banani is translating her poems and I believe will be
published through Kalimat Press. Perhaps Tony Lee (if he is now back
on Talisman) can comment a bit more.
Ilkhani garden is in vicinity of Tihran but is not known by that
name. Tahirih remains is in the same spot that she was buried.
A number of her descendants are around and are within the fold. Not
long ago, one of them turned over a sizable collection of her
writings to the Faith.
much love, ahang.
=END=
[end of 12/29/95 session]
Talisman emails received 12/30/95
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 22:00:21 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: List matters, from Ahmad Anees
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: PO2::"ahmada@acsusun.acsu.unsw.edu.au" "Ahmad Aniss" 29-DEC-1995 19:51:07.
81
To: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
CC:
Subj: Re: List matters
Dear Talismanians,
Dear John,
In your message regarding the list matters you state that the list is
a public list and you decide who comes on it.
I like to know if you would permit a covenant-breaker to participate
in our discussions. If so what should us Baha'i do in regard to
issues that can be raised by such covenant-breaker?
In regard to Michelle Ma'ani, I must say that I was also disgusted
with the attitude the friends adopted towards her. Specially when I
read a message from her stating that she is related to a covenant
braker but she is a good standing Baha'i. If we look at the way we
treated her and compare it to Baha'u'llah and His brother then we
we should crucify Baha'u'llah. Perhaps you can send a message to her
asking her to resubscribe and send appologies on behalf of the members
of the list.
With Best Wishes,
Ahmad.
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 22:16:00 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: Re: Kwanzaa is coming
Hurray! I think I am back online with Talisman! Just in time for New
Year's.
Yes, I think that sometimes the black Baha'is should take the
lead--especially in the celebration of their own African-American culture.
Of course, white Baha'is should like to come along too. It, after all,
should be an interracial celebration of Kwanzaa. That, in itself, will drive
certain black nationalists mad.
Tony
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: rstockman@usbnc.org (Stockman, Robert)
Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
To: Talisman@indiana.edu, Member1700@aol.com
Date: 95-12-29 15:29:14 EST
Just the black Baha'is adopt Kwanzaa? Why not us white folks too? I
must say, I have become very fond of Kwanzaa. Perhaps its partly the
beautiful Kwanzaa t-shirts some people wear in South Bend (my wife is
a member of the Urban League Board, so I have many occasions to see
people wearing them; in fact, the Urban League is my main contact with
my own city!). Last week I almost asked to buy one of the shirts.
And the description of Kwanzaa's principles that I heard last year was
quite moving.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Fwd: Re: Kwanzaa is coming
Author: Member1700@aol.com at INTERNET
Date: 12/29/95 1:32 PM
Yes, that would be one approach. But I really meant that black Baha'is
should adopt Kwanzaa, with all of its ceremony, as their own and popularize
it in the black community as a celebration of interracial unity and
recognition of African-American culture.
That is to say, I think that we should not be afraid to engage the
culture in which we live, capture a part of it, and import it right into the
Baha'i community and its practice. What I think does not work, and has been
shown to be a repeated failure, is for the community to maintain a separate
and sectarian attitude toward the society and deliberately maintain a
distance from it by the use of our own jargon and list of taboos. So far,
that has gotten us nowhere.
Well, it has gotton us 50,000 Baha'is or so--far, far fewer than Mormons
or Jehovah's Witnesses. Sigh.
Warmest,
Tony
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
To: Member1700@aol.com
CC: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: 95-12-27 13:42:32 EST
Tony writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^
Anyway, as some of you know, I think that the Baha'is in the United
States should start observing this new holiday in our own way and simply
capture it for our own--as a celebration of interracial unity and a salute to
black culture. The time is quite ripe.
___________
RESPONSE
What would be wrong with re-dating *Race Unity Day* to coincide
with *Kwanzaa*? Just an idea.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:43:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: Gibbon and the Guardian
Dear Chris,
Beatifully put.
take care,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:45:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: Gibbon and the Guardian
Dear Chris,
Beautifully put. (one of my shortest posts and it still had misspellings).
take care,
sAmAn
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: *Overburdening the Guardian*
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 22:46:46 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Would someone kindly post Ruhiyyih Khanum's statement (from her
pamphlet, *Success in Teaching*, I think) that the friends ought not to
overburden the Guardian by ascribing to him omniscience and the like?
My post was not intended to have shock value. But source criticism
of sacred texts is a delicate area of investigation. I, for one have
decided not to pursue it, unless it comes about (again) entirely by
accident.
Imagine how Juan Cole must have felt when a Hand of the Cause
demanded that Juan retract his *Problems of Chronology in Baha'u'llah's
Tablet of Wisdom*--that brilliant but controversial World Order article--
while the Universal House of Justice quietly vindicated the results of
Juan's research by incorporating his findings in the *Footnotes and Errata*
of *Tablets of Baha'u'llah Revealed After the Kitab-i-Aqdas*!
What I had discovered did not precipitate a crisis of faith for me.
Rather, it made me appreciate the infallibility of the Guardian even more
deeply, once I realized that my own conception of infallibility was
burdened with my own assumptions. At some point, I had to come to terms
with the fact that the Guardian was not *omniscient at will* and so forth.
By using Gibbon, the beloved Guardian *confirmed* Gibbon, and, as
Ahang rightly points out, honored him. Considering all of the Sufi poets
and passages from the Qur'an and citations of hadith we find in the Baha'i
writings, it is a tribute to Gibbon that the Guardian had found something in
English to privilege and to emulate. The Guardian had exquisite taste--
artistic, architectural, and literary.
If we were to pursue Derek's suggestion that we explore Gibbon
further (given the Guardian's extremely high opinion of him), might I
recommend that someone post Gibbon's analysis as to the factors that led
to the success of Christianity? I believe that one of these factors--the
creation of a unique religious experience--could be profoundly instructive
for us all.
My apologies to Terry for the unintended *positive shock*. And I
am still waiting for the friends online to help me out with listing how
many kinds of *Unity* and *Paradises* there are in the Writings.
BTW, my very favorite passage of the Guardian is on pages 57-58,
under the heading, *Fundamental Principle of Religious Truth*. I seriously
doubt that this passage can be found in Gibbon.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 17:17:58 +1300 (NZDT)
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: felicity
Dear Linda,
Re:
Robert, now that I
>am back, we can resume throwing the crockery at one another. For
>heaven's sakes, you are part of this forum and it is not nice for you to
>threaten to leave. Maybe we should all just settle back down to our usual
>lower intensity of hostility and get on with the show.
> Linda
Another metaphor.... Does this mean I can come back to class? It was
getting boring waiting outside the headmaster's office...
Thank you ...
Robert...
=END=
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:46:18 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Photos of Talisman folk
A reminder that Quanta has offered to put photos of the folks here, on
the WWW. Send em in to her at:
Quanta Dawnlight
> 809 Tower Street
> Raleigh, N.C. 27607-7364
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: American Baha'i?
Date: 29 Dec 1995 22:15:04 GMT
> To question any level of the administration is tantamount to
> questioning the whole foundation of the Faith. Yet, it is one of
> the greatest strengths of American society that we can question -
> that we should hold those in power accountable for their action.
The issue is not whether to question the administration, but how. This has
been addressed by the Universal House of Justice in their letter to the
American Baha'is "Individual Rights and Freedoms" and by the Guardian in a
letter written on his behalf to an individual, 28 Oct 35. Shoghi Effendi's
letter is cited in a paper prepared by the Research Department at the request
of the Universal House of Justice and sent to all National Spiritual
Assemblies under the title 'Issues Concerning Community Functioning'. The
U.S. National Spiritual Assembly distributed copies to all local Spiritual
Assemblies and had it published in the American Baha'i.
Two points are explicitly made in these two papers.
1. The individual has the right, even the respoonsibility, to criticize the
adminstration of the community and make suggestions.
2. However, the individual has no right to discuss their dissatisfaction
with the decisions of the administration with anyone outside the
administration.
Because every one is probably aware of the statements in the Writings
providing for one's right to speech, I am only citing the statement of Shoghi
Effendi from the 'Issues' paper.
"Meantime we must do all we can to strenghten and support the Local and
National Assemblies by exercising great care in the elections, so as to
secure the return of the wisest and most suitable members, then by loyal
co-operation and obedience. If we disapprove of their decisions we must
be careful to avoid discussing such matters with other believers who have
no authority to put them right. We must put our views frankly before the
Assembly itself and only in the case of not getting a satisfactory reply
appeal to the National Assembly, if it is a question of the conduct of
the Local Assembly, and to Shoghi Effendi if the National Assembly
is concerned."
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 00:02:53 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Tahirih . Information on her death .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians .
In regard to the posting on Tahirih . It is clear from the evidence of
execution that it is highly unlikely she uttered the statement
regarding
the emancipation of women at that time . Indeed it has been
suggested she would have been offended at being regarded as a person
for women's liberty . Rather she saw herself as the crucial element in
winning for her Best Beloved the Primal Point the ultimate victory
over the hearts of women and men alike . She was about the conquest
of the Planet nothing more or less.
I must correct Ahang in that Dr McCormick did not witness her
execution that dubious honor fell to the Austrian doctor . He
recorded that she bore her fate with super-human fortitude . They
wrapped the silk scarf around her neck . Held her so she could not
move then hammered down her throat a wooden peg .Then slowly
strangling the life force out of this beloved woman with the silk
scarf.
The doctor recorded she did not struggle or protest but was a silent
witness of her faith and devotion . After completing the martyrdom
of Tahirih they threw the body down a dry well and filled it in .
One of her poems reads : To tread the path of Love is no mere game .
For only one out of many
thousands
Can preserve in His Love .
Amin Banani does hope to finish his book on Tahirih soon . His ABS
lecture drawn from the work is a spell-binding taste of what is to
come .
To say this woman was truly great is a profound understatement . She
deserves the title of the greatest teacher of the Babi era and ranks
with the Greatest Holy Leaf as an example to women and men alike
who wish to tread the Path of Love .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: Chris' Research Question: Paradise
To: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 1:16:46 MST
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Chris Buck wrote:
> Three Research Questions
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> (3) How many kinds of Paradises are there in the Writings?
One reference:
"And know thou of a certainty that by Paradise is meant recognition
of and submission unto Him Whom God shall make manifest...."
Persian Bayan, Vahid VIII, Chapter 14 (SWB pp.82-83)
Also, Vahid V, Chapter 4 (SWB pp.88-89) discusses the attainment of
Paradise.
When I was on pilgrimage last February Counsellor Don Rogers was
giving a talk in the Pilgrim's House one evening. He was discussing a
concept of paradise in which our own paradise results from our own good
deeds. I believe he quoted a reference but I don't have it. If anyone
knows of this reference, please post it.
Loving regards,
stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Baha`i Institutes
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 06:01:11 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
Sorry for taking up band width with this post. I was wondering if
anyone here has had any experience setting up Baha'i institutes. if so,
I would like to be able to benefit from your experience.
1. Which subjects seem to attract the greatest interest?
2. What sorts of facilities are required or desirable?
3. What is the best way to publicize the activities?
4. How can interest be sustained in the institute's activities?
Well, those are the only questions I can think of off the top of my
head. Any additional assistance would also be appreciated.
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (List Co-Moderator) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 95 10:17:56 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Misc.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Derek: I have but one wife, despite occasional inquiries from pious Shiite
ladies who thought that good classical Arabic grammar was at
least the basis for a temporary marriage.
Brent Poirier asks the following reasonable question:
>Please tell me, who is Suhrawardi and what is his relevance to the Faith?
>thanks
Suhrawardi was a 12th century Persian (or possibly Kurdish) philosopher
who founded a school called the Illuminationists distinguished by
their Platonism and their systematic integration of mysticism and
philosophy. Most Iranian philosophers since him have been either
faithful or rebellious intellectual descendents of him. The Shaykhis
are a conspicuous example. He is relevant
to the Baha'i Faith because his kind of philosophy is the kind of
philosophy that `Abdu'l-Baha uses to explain things in texts like SAQ.
Aristocracy: It is true that institutions such as the Hands of the Cause
and the counsellors are not strictly hereditary. However, has
anybody besides me and Linda noticed how strong the element
of heredity is in the Persian Baha'i community. Ahang can
speak to the Afnan family. In the case of the Varqas the
position of Hand was inherited. If you actually start looking
at who is related to whom, you will find that family plays a
significant role in setting the boundaries of the Persian Baha'i
elites. Important families remain important for generations.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 95 09:46:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: hereditary
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
John and Linda are quite right about the role of family and one's
background in Persian Baha'i community.
As I may have stated in the past, there are at least two offices
in the Faith which will continue to function based on hereditary
principle. One is the custodianship of the House of the Bab in
Shiraz and the other is the burial location of the Nayriz'
martyrs in Abadih. The first one instituted by Baha'u'llah and
the second by Abdu'l-Baha.
Neither of these two offices are all that relevant to the
administration of the Faith, but its of interest that the
hereditary principle is preserved.
regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 12:17:57 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: List maintenance
Friends:
I am in the process of moving my e-mail account to a new system. I do
not think that this will affect Talisman. If you do have any
difficulties, please contact me directly at jwalbrid@indiana.edu.
John Walbridge
List Owner
Talisman
=END=
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 13:22:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: "Don R. Calkins"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: American Baha'i?
Hi, folks. I'm back from vacation and have now plowed through the
accumulated messages, including the Faust legacy (poor guy). Luckily, I
have rather upgraded my system, so it was not time-consuming.
Don: With your usual perspicacity, you have put your finger on exactly
the relevant texts.
Where do we go from here, however? Several things should be noted.
First of all, a system in which no criticism of policy can ever be made
publicly (which is to say, outside a private letter to the Institutions
or outside Feast) may have worked in the small Baha'i community of the
1930s. But there are things wrong with making this eternal policy.
Second, such a system does not in the least resemble the ideals put
forward by Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha. Baha'u'llah spoke of popular
sovereignty, of democratic consultation, of the advent of Reason among
all and the end of Absolutism, of the value of the modern press if it
maintained high journalistic standards of accuracy. `Abdu'l-Baha praised
the democratic practices in the U.S. and urged liberty of opinion and
expression.
Third, the system has extreme practical difficulties. It fosters a sense
among elected Baha'i officials that they are or should be above
criticism, leading them to develop thin skins on occasion and in some
instances an almost Nixonian leadership style. It disallows Baha'i
journalism, since the "public" has been defined as having no right to
know and as being irrelevant to decision-making. It deprives the Faith
of flexibility. Since elected officials can count on only receiving
criticism one by one from isolated individuals, they can easily dismiss
any individual's critique as just one opinion, and do whatever they
please. Once a bad policy is enacted, there is no way to reverse it,
more especially if the elected officials come to feel they have a vested
interest in the policy. In many ways, this system has many of the same
flaws as did the Communist bureaucracies in Eastern Europe, and, of
course, they collapsed under their own weight.
This critique partially derives from resource mobilization theory. It
seems obvious that however bad industrial pollution has been in the U.S.,
it was far, far worse in the Communist countries. East Germany was
becoming a chemical cesspool. The Party decided to put a chemical plant
in your back yard and there was nothing you could do about it. In
contrast, in the U.S., where there is a strong civil society, the
decision of where to locate chemical plants is a subject of negotiation,
and a determined neighborhood organization could get plans changed and
projects moved. The current Baha'i system is in its centralized
decision-making, rigidity and unresponsiveness far more like East Germany
than like a the sort of parliamentary system Baha'u'llah admired.
Finally, the system described is highly undemocratic and could easily
deteriorate into a form of fascism. Outside observers such as the Berlin
municipal authorities are coming to this conclusion, as well, and the
image of the Faith will be increasingly hurt to the degree that we cling
to these practices of the 1930s.
The letter of the Universal House of Justice to the US NSA of May 19,
1994, complained that the NSA had begun acting like the board of
directors of a corporation they owned. The House appears to have thought
this a flaw in policy or possibly in personal character. But I would
argue that it is a flaw that derives directly from current Baha'i
policies about discourse which a) run contrary to the vision of
Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha, b) were legislated by the Guardian at a
time of small, village-like Baha'i communities, and c) desperately now
need to be revised at a time when we claim 120,000 American Baha'is. The
Baha'i system, envisaged originally as the religious equivalent of
parliamentary democracy, is in danger of being frozen into the mold of a
kind of Leninism, where the elected institutions are the delegated
vanguard of a dictatorship. Democratic centralism has failed miserably
in the twentieth century, and it is not a model we Baha'is should emulate.
The American sociologist C. Wright Mills distinguished usefully between a
"public" and a "mass." I believe Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha advocated
a "public," but that the Baha'i community as deteriorated into a "mass."
"In a *public*, as we may understand the term, 1) virtually as many
people express opinions as receive them. 2) Public communications are so
organized that there is a chance immediately and effectively to answer
back any opinion expressed in public. Opinion formed by such discussion
3) readily finds an outlet in effective action, even against--if
necessary--the prevailing system of authority. And 4) authoritative
institutions do not penetrate the public, which is thus more or less
autonomous in its operation."
The mass is the opposite: "In a *mass*, 1) far fewer people express
opinions than receive them; for the community of publics becomes an
abstract collection of individuals who receive impressions from the mass
media. 2) The communications that prevail are so organized that it is
difficult or impossible for the individual to answer back immediately or
with any effect. 3) The realization of opinion in action is controlled
by authorities who organize and control the channelsof such action. 4)
The mass has no autonomy from institutions; on the contrary, agents of
authorized institutions penetrate this mass, reducing any autonomy it may
have in the formation of opinion by discussion."
Now, clearly, Talisman is a public and not a mass. And I think it highly
significant that after watching it operate for about 8 months, the
Universal House of Justice declined to close it down. I see this as the
first step toward a post-Guardian Baha'i society in which we realize
Baha'u'llah's vision of a Baha'i *public* and civil society, animated by
reasoned, democratic consultation (the keywords are `aql/reason, hukm jumhur
an-nas/the rule of a democracy of the people, and mashvirat/parliamentary
deliberation/consultation). We no longer have an authorized
Interpreter. We have difficulty determining which of the Guardian's
directives was ad hoc and which should continue. But Baha'u'llah's
legacy to us of key principles must now be our guide.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: 30 Dec 95 14:46:49 EST
From: Richard Hollinger <72723.172@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: E-mail problems
Dear Talismanians,
I was surprised this week to have my e-mail box at work overloaded
with about 2 mb of messages over a 2-day period. This complete
froze up my e-mail--I cannot access any of these messages, and they
may well have been deleted by our systems people. Since I rpesume that
the bulk of these came from Talisman, I have signed off for the time
being. In the meantime, anyone who has sent me a personal message
should resend it to this address, where it can be retrieved. I hope
to get this straighte4ned out next week, when the systems office is
reopened.
Richard Hollinger
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 14:59:03 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Aborted Attempts ( "Jettison the Warp Core Jordi!")
Dear Mr. Johnson:
A priori assumptions? No I don't think so, that would be quite a feet of
metaphysical illogic. I never made any comment on people's inherent
shortcomings and the difficulties that would bring to any human endeavor.
What I said was that the folk that inhabit the chairs of the administrative
order are most often thorough-going Americans. They bring to a new wine flask
old wine as His Holiness Christ said (Lk 5:37.) Ruhiyyih Rabbani in her book
(The Guardian and the Baha'i Faith) used an analogy close to the one I had
been using for some time to explain what was and was not happening to us as a
community.It does have to do with axiology - but I don't want to set off too
many alarm bells here for those who entertain fears about the theory.
But it is all wrapped up in what Christ said. And it is also something Helen
Bishop used to pound into my head. The first part is this. The American
believer, just as any other human has a *template* - a pattern that has come
to define who they are. Much goes into making us these templates, and of
course we know that environment has a strong role in that. It is that
mesocosm ( a term coined by the late Joseph Campbell) which is defined as a
cultural universe - it is this mesocosm that shapes the *people*. Cultural
traits yes, but even deeper how we are *shaped* to view the universe -
reality.
In the act of *conversion* there are numerous levels of becoming, of
converting your whole being to the ideal image of the true believer. This is
one element of the Seven Valleys of Baha'u'llah. We all know that simply
signing a declaration card here in America does not a Baha' make. Well we
here on Talisman know this don't we? But how often have we witnessed a
process remarkably similar to a rivival *conversion* when someone *declares*
at a fireside. We have all come from a culture which for at least the last
sixteen centuries has placed almost all the stress of faith on simply
uttering the words "I Believe!"
The American Baha'is were not and are not immune from this. It is like fish
swimming in a very large and dirty pool of water feeling that because they
have sectioned themselves off over toward under the weeping willow that they
have been *preserved* *saved* *exalted*. Who are they fooling! They're still
sucking down the dirty water like everyone else. It takes something far, far
more than simply saying "I believe!"
And this is what Helen Bishop tried to push into my head. Levels of
conversion. That much of the Baha'i community had confessed belief but that
this was only the barest beginning. The problem is exacerbated by most of the
ways (not necessarily methods) in which the teaching work is carried out and
has been carried out for the past three decades. Shallow, going for the
thrill of the *quick kill*, washing down the revolutionary elements of the
Faith and making it seem like a New Age religion with a few more credentials.
We have been warned repeatedly about this, by Ruhiyyih, by the Universal
House of Justice:
"Exultant as we are over the remarkable feats you have attained, both
those already cited and those too numerous to mention, we cannot help noting
the sad lag in the rate of your enrollments, a lag which is conspicuously at
variance with the high energy of your endeavors and the teaching oppotunities
abounding in your richly blessed land. We call this to your attention not to
cause distress but rather to stir a deeper consciousness of your immediate
possibilities, to arouse you to new heights of action."
(Ridvan 1984)
A few years later:
"IT is not enough to proclaim the Baha'i message, essential as that is. It
is not enough to expand the rolls of Baha'i membership, vital as that is.
Souls must be transformed, communities therebyconsolidated, new models of
life thus attained. Transformation is the essential Cause of Baha'u'llah . .
."
(Ridvan 1989)
And something that William Sears said to a meeting of Counsellors in
Mexico City back in 1978 that has always stuck with me. This is nearly an
exact quote:
"We have to remember that the Master said, and the Guardian too, that the
primary purpose of teaching the Cause of God is not the increase the numbers,
or to build up the Administrative Order; but rather to create that spiritual
atmosphere in which each soul can best develop."
No Mr. Johnson we are not different from other Americans. We are
potentially. But Americans are increasingly at a lose to even know who they
are as it is. Our outward structure (Baha'i) gives the appearence of
difference but for someone who has been immersed in both worlds it is an
illusion. There is no substantive differences in the two communites. Between
individuals - yes. And that is where we get caught up in this part of the
illusion. We meet a truly spiritual being and we translate this to the
community. One of the greatest shocks to the new believer is when the reality
hits them that this one really spiritual being is possibly unique in the
entire Baha'i community. Can't tell you how many times I've heard that one .
. .
This will have to do for now Mr. J. I realize you made other points but I
have GOT to go get more coffee (we here in the NW have our priorities - God
help the man standing between my and my Sumatra/Columbia blend!)
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:49:22 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Tahirih
Yes, it is true that Kalimat Press is preparing a volume of Tahirih's poetry
for publication. The poetry (some of it) has been translated by Amin Banani
and rendered into English poetry by Jascha Kessler, a noted poet and
professor at UCLA (not a Baha'i). The book has been in the works for some
year, and I hope that it will come out in 1996. But that is just a hope.
I believe that the source of the "last words" of Tahirih comes from
'Abdu'l-Baha. I forget the source--Can Juan help here? But, as Dr. Banani
noted in his talk at the San Francisco ABS conference, these words were
almost certainly never uttered. I do not think that 'Abdu'l-Baha intended
this as a literal statement, but more as a summary of one of the
significances of her life.
It is absolutely clear, both from her own writings and from the attacks
of her enemies, that Tahirih was not a feminist in any modern sense of the
word. She did not advocate the equality of men and women as such, nor would
she have understood or recognized such a principle. Her passion was for the
complete revolutionary change of Muslim society in accordance with the
teachings of the Bab, and the expectations of Shi'i eschatology. That is,
that society would become pure and just, that evil and inequality and false
piety would be destroyed. That things would be turned upside-down.
In this context, of course, women would be given their just due. But she
did not advocate social equality for women in any modern sense.
On the other hand, as Farzaneh Milani (her book is Words and Veils: The
Emerging Voices of Iranian Women Writers) has pointed out, one cannot dismiss
the fact that in her every word and action Tahirih appropriated male social
space. She acted on the assumption of her own emancipation as a woman, made
legitimate by the revelation of the Bab. She held literacy classes for women
in Karbala and had a circle of women Babi followers. She insisted on a
public role and a public voice, the central taboo for women in her society.
In that sense (though this is not a modern feminism), she advocated the
emancipation of women and her very existence as a public figure presupposed
such emancipation. That is why 'Abdu'l-Baha could put those final words in
her mouth, and they make sense.
But all this requires a certain amount of historical understanding and
historical reasoning. Sometimes that is hard to find.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 17:02:44 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: American Baha'i?
I think that Juan has summarized the problems with a closed and secret system
of Baha'i government quite brilliantly and succinctly.
However, if I can add for the umpteenth time (and to the utter boredom of
older Talismanians) that the conception of Baha'i administration which allows
the individual to only speak privately and secretly to the institutions makes
the development of civil discourse and civil society impossible. It not only
makes fascism a possibility, it makes it the only possibility.
There can, in such a system, be no such thing as public opinion. No such
thing as a free press. No such thing as open consultation or tentative
discussion of policy, outside of the institutional elites. There can be no
such thing as Talisman, since if anyone has anything to say, he should just
send it to a letter to the House of Justice and then be silent ever after.
Clearly, we are at a point in the development of the Baha'i community
when such a system can no longer work.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 15:59:56 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu, jwinters@epas.utoronto.ca
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Sholarship at its finest. (Nosing Around)
The following item appeared in our local newspaper on April 2, 1995.
* * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * *
NOSING AROUND
Writing in the February Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, two
Wisconsin researchers concluded that nose-picking does not create problems
for most people, but that for some, the habit "may meet criteria for a
disorder - rhinotillexomania." Among their survey findings: 66.4 percent of
pickers did it "to relieve discomfort and itchiness" (vs. 2.1 percent for
"enjoyment" and 0.4 percent for "sexual stimulation"); 65.1 percent used
the index finger (vs. 20.2 percent little finger and 16.4 percent thumb);
and "Once removed, the nasal debris was examined, at least some of the time,
by most respondents."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
In view of these rather disturbing findings, I have been attempting
to organize yet another support group; "Rhinotillexomaniacs Anonomous" to
assist victims of this disorder to deal with their problem. There has not
been a great deal of response as yet and I expect the majority of
Rhinotillexomaniacs are either in a state of denial or, out of fear of
public ridicule choose to remain "closet pickers". I am sure that once a
few people begin to discussed this openly, many others will realize that
they are not alone and we can begin a dialogue on this important issue.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Spheres on Bonferred Infallibility
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 95 18:51:07 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Some posts ago, I had cited Dr. David Ruhe and Counsellor Delahunt
as Baha'is who had publicly taken positions that there were indeed Native
Messengers of God. It seemed clear to me that these two prominent and
deepened Baha'is had adopted positions that appeared to be at some
variance with World Centre opinions, demonstrating (to me at least) that a
plurality of understanding can be tolerated as long as the strict sphere
of the House's infallibility is not infringed on. Criticism of an issue of
interpretation, to me, is not the same as criticism of a policy or a decision.
Since, to the best of my knowledge, the House cannot infallibly
interpret, and since the Guardian's sphere of infallibility has not been
defined with such a degree of precision that would not allow for some
discussion of possibly non-essential rulings, some matters are still open
for discussion. I thought that matters open for discussion could be
discussed openly. I confess I share some of the same fears Juan and Tony
have expressed over the lack of a public space, or possible Administrative
problems with maintaining a public space.
I had also cited remarks made by Dr. Ruhe at ABS in Boston, 1994.
Dr. Ruhe's comments were made at the end of the discussion following my
*Native Messengers* paper (Study of Religion Seminar). The substance of
Dr. Ruhe's remarks was this: After someone in the audience had cited the
Guardian's objection to *adding names* not attested in the Qur'an, Dr.
Ruhe got up and spoke to this issue. He said that Baha'is must not treat
this kind of statement by the Guardian too dogmatically. Dr. Ruhe then
enumerated the *three spheres* of the Guardian's conferred infallibility.
As I recall, two of them were: (1) Head of the Faith; (2) authorized
Interpreter--but, for the life of me, I cannot recall the third. I am
confident that Dr. Ruhe would never challenge the Guardian's
infallibility, so I took Dr. Ruhe's remarks all the more seriously. They
gave me pause for thought.
Dr. Ruhe's remarks were striking, not so much because he was
taking a sympathetic position to my POV, but because he had worked out, in
his own thinking at least, exactly where the limits are of conferred
infallibility. By himself believing that Dekanawida was a prophet, it is
clear to me that Dr. Ruhe felt that some pronouncements by the Guardian
were not binding, precisely because they fell outside the province of
these three spheres of conferred infallibility. Had I the list of
participants in the Study of Religion Seminar, I could ask a couple of
individuals to verify or revise my recollection of this event.
So, I pose this question: What are the spheres of the Guardian's
conferred infallibility? Is the Guardian infallible on everything he makes a
pronouncement on? This is an old issue kicked around on Talisman before,
but one that was never resolved. I am opening up myself for *deepening* on
this question. I am certainly not advocating any change in our
understanding of the Guardian's spheres of infallibility. I simply wish to
deepen my understanding as to where the limits of conferred infallibility
are. In response to Ahang, my question is this: Where do the Writings say
that the Guardian is the authorized interpreter for scriptures other than
the Baha'i scriptures? I'm not questioning this. Rather, yours is an
understanding of the Guardian that I simply had never heard of before.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:36:08 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Baha'i institutes & Fire Tablet
Dear Mark and Talismans,
Hope that the dear friends are having a restful holiday season.
Institutes:
I just came back from a wonderful Baha'i institute held at a pubic rest
house/hostel on the slopes of Mt. Aso, a volcano in Kyushu (something that
gave us pause when reading the Fire Tablet--and I have a story about this).
The topic of the institute was the Lesser Peace, and classes were held for
all age levels, from pre-school through adult. We adults hung out until late
at night, forming support groups for various problems (particularly coping
with teenagers!!!), sharing stories of teaching successes, exchanging
information, suggestions, insights, etc. This networking was as vital as the
formal courses.
On the final night, the Baha'is gathered with the other groups staying at
the rest house and presented a joint program. Our dynamic youth presented the
Equality Dance and several of the talented adult Baha'is sang their original
compositions, including a touching song by Stephen Gardner of Yamaguchi (sung
in Japanese) on bullying and the need for unity. (Bullying in the Japanese
school system is a tremendous social problem, causing many tragic suicides
each year).
So, to answer Mark's post, the choice of a natural, refreshing, Bosch-like
venue for the conference, the wide application of the theme, appealing to
all attendees, the chance for informal socializing, and the mixing of
artistic expression and formal study--these elements made our institute a
success. It was publicized through our National Baha'i News and through a
seperate mailing to the youth, and had full attendance.
The power of the Fire Tablet:
One of the friends told us this story. Her family had just been asked by the
NSA to move from their apartment to the Baha'i Center to act as caretakers.
Not knowing what to do, they read the Fire Tablet, then left their apartment
to visit the Center. When they walked in the door, they were immediatly
surrounded by hysterical friends asking if they were all right. It seems that
five minutes after they had left their building, it had blown up!!!
They remained in the Center for several years and greatly supported the
growth of the community by their warmth and hospitality.
Best,
Sandy Fotos
=END=
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 17:10:25 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: William Cormick was Tahirih's Martyrdom .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talimanians
The question has been posed about Dr William Cormick , who is recorded
with two meetings with the Bab .
This is a matter of the East India Company and Iran .
The East India Company basically ran India in the 18th and 19th
century , becoming an arm of the British Government in 1858 .
Until 1858 technically the East India Company was a business for
profit and not part of her Majesty Government . The first British
doctors in Iran were employees of the East India Company . The
first one was Andrew Jukes who died in Isfahan in 1921 .Doctor
John Cormick the father of William Cormick arrived in Iran in
1810 and was the third British doctor in the country . He died in
Iran in 1833 . William Cormick was born in Iran in 1820 . The
second British doctr was a man called Campbell who died in Iran
in 1818 . Campbell replacement was Doctor John McNeil . He was
the most notable of the East India Company doctors in Iran . He
was appointed in 1836 the British Ambassador to the court of
Muhammad Shah . Even at that time he was an employee of the East
India Company being answerable to Calcutta rather than London .
McNeil in 1837 was also appointed as the Shah's physician .
William Cormick was sent to England to be educated , reading
medicine at University College London . He became a member of
the Royal College of Surgeons in 1840 and a fellow in 1876 . He
received his MD. .from St. Andrews University in 1841 and the
same year was admitted as a Licentiate of the Society of
Apothecaries . He , like his father , was an employee and company
doctor of the East India Company or to be correct the Indian
Medical Service . He was appointed briefly as physician to
Nasiri'd-Din Shah in 1848 . He then moved to Tabriz and died there
in 1877. I have considered that his mother could have been Iranian
. There is no record of John Cormick arriving in Iran with a wife
that I have found . William Cormick married an Iranian girl and the
remarks made are that he married the most beautiful woman in Iran
.
Kindest regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 20:22:45 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Phillips ethical dilemna
Dear All ,
In a respone to my post attempting to tralslate Jim H.'s post into my
language Phillip asked : " How cam we be in submission to a call to
religious orthodoxy and at the same time avoid becoming a 'traditional
defender of religious orthodoxy'.
Let me back into a response to this by outlining what I understand
from Baha u llah and the Guardian 's descriptions in WOB. This applies to
the "internal" Bahai community.
World Order of Baha u llah
Bahai Commonwealth
Administrative Order
Mashriqu l Adhkar
Houses of Justice
Houses of Worship
Bahai Courts Feast
Educ. institutions! Huquq u llah
Humanitarian Inst.
The orthodox view collapes the World Order of Baha u lah into
equivalency with the Administrative Order . It further collapses the Admin.
Order into the Houses of Justice. The Mashriqu l Adhkar as an Institution
does not enter consciousness . When it does it is subsumed under the Admin .
Order as a committee function of the House of Justice .
Feast , which I have positioned in the middle is usually , at the level
of consciousness , conceived as a part of the Admin . Order . I would suggest
it is not . Feast is a bridge institution between the Admin . Order and the
Maskriqu l Adhkar . It contains elements of both of the "Twin Houses " of
community development . It has a worship element and an administrative
element( consultation) which ideally is the realm of civil society or a
public within the Bhai comunity as Juan has defined public. Feast also
contains its own element of cultural celebration or the so called social part
. The devotonal part of Feast calls to mind the *Remembrance* of God and
ought to re awaken the "Dawnbreaker" within us in order that we might consult
on the affairs of the community . That is do democracy at the grass roots .
It culminates in the convivial or celebratory aspect which I conceive as a
celebration of the Unity of Humankind ( the House of Justice ) and the Unity
of God ( the House of Worship) .
The Houses of Justice and the Houses of Worship are ordained and
commanded in the Kitab i Aqdas . The language is instructive . The
characteristics of the members of the Houses of Justice are cast in terms of
" counsellors" "trusteeship" " guardians " . They are to "take counsel
together" and Bahau allah says "It is incumbent upon them to do so" . To what
end ? That end is to have " regard for the interests of the servants of God
, even as they regard their own interests . ." This parallells Baha u
lllha's definition of justice found in the Kalimat and is very . very
similiar to the language He uses in praising Queen Victoria and consultative
democracy in the Tablet to her wirtten prior to the revelation of the Aqdas .
This paragraph continues , after Baha u llah's definition of justice , with
a warning to the members of Houses of Justice . " Thus hath your Lord
commanded you . Beware lest you put away that which is clearly revealed in
His Tablet " This is a warning , in my view , to those who would usurp the
democratic and just character of Houses of Justice and turn them into a
despotic.from or conceive of themselves as a new form of Ecclesiastical body.
In this regard the abolition of the clergy in the Bahai community is
significant. As is the notation in the Aqdas that mattters of "worship are to
be conducted according to the book ".
The next paragraph of the Aqdas "commands" the building of Houses of
Worship . It continues with , to me, an important issue . Baha u llah
carefully limits what is forbidden but does not prescribe what is permitted .
More on that in a moment . In referring to Houses of Worship He says " Make
them as perfect as is possible in the world of being, and adorn them with
that which befitteth them , not with images and effigies ." Baha u llah
prohibits images and effigies but what He does not say I find most
interesting . He does not proscribe the use of symbols or for that matter
forms of ritual . The passage continues with after making them i.e.
constructing them we are to then " with radiance and joy, celebrate therein
the praise of your Lord , the Most Compassionate. This paragraph closes not
with a warning but with a promise of reality that is experiental in nature .
" verliy by His remembrance the eye is cheered and the heart is filled with
light ." Its this remembrance and light reference that makes me want to
coax John into more on Suha wardi .
If there is no clergy and no ecclesiastical order in the Bahai
community and Baha u llah does not prescribe how worship is to be conducted,
He says what is not to be done , how do we know how or in what manner to
worship . The answer it sems to me is embedded in the entire system of Baha
u llah 's notion of consultative democracy . We determine forms of worship by
consultation . The Mashriq u l Adhkar is an institution in its own right and
how worship is developed over time is a function of consultation of the
community within the "precincts of the Mashriq u l Adhkar . The Admin .
Institutions can enforce the ban on what is forbidden but they are not in a
postition to legislate prescribed forms . That is a function of community
consultation and is open to change and diverse circumstances. To suggest
otherwise is to me to collapse the World Order of Baha u llah into Admin,
Order and in turn to collapse that into NSA's / LSA's . How people choose to
worship, assuming it is not forbidden by Baha u lah, is not an
administrative issue . To do otherwise is to become a "traditional defender
of religious orthodixy" . The Admin Order and in particular the Houses of
Justice have a responsibility to "protect and safeguard men , women and
children " as Baha u llah notes . This protection I would submit is to be
centered around the central purpose of the Aqdas and of life the "recognition
" and observance" spoken of in the opening paragraph of the Kitab' i Aqdas .
Now we are arriving at my metaphor of an * Irfan Republic*.
Irfan is the Arabic word translated as recognition in the Aqdas and as
"true understanding" in the opening line of the Kitab i Iqan . My
understanding of the term is th
[brief spate of garbage characters found here]
defered to it as mystical insight but prefer to say it is the experienced
knowledge of the heart . To recognize , to have Irfan , is to be in the 7th
Valley. Then once there it is by definition impossible to seperate what one
"knows " fron what one "does" . This , it sems to me is the inseperable
nature Bahau llah refers to of recognition and observance .
The purpose of the Bahai community it would seem is to establish, to
create the conditions wherein each soul may " testify , in himself , by
himself , in the station of the Manifestation of His Lord , that verily there
is no God save Him ."
Baha ullah being no stranger to the corrupting character of religious
orthodoxy - see part 1 of the Iqan - or to the horrors of political
despotism - see His letters to the Kings in Proclamation . of Baha u llah -
began to design a system in which the knowledge of God could be experienced ,
that is Irfan , and that every human being would have the "Liberty " to do so
. This is , I believe abundantly confirmed by Abdul Baha in Travellers
Narrative with his remarks that "conscience" is "sacred ." Baha u llah
understanding that true understanding or Irfan was inseperable from its
observance designs this "wondrous system " in order that both Irfan and its
"observance" would be possible . An Administrative Order , whose
centerpiece is the Houses of Justice , have as their principle respnsibility
to protect , safeguard and promote this knowledge of God which is Baha u
llah's definition of religion .
When Baha u llah lays the responsibility to promote religion in society He is
, I would argue , saying to both Houses of Justice and civil governments ,
promote Irfan and construct a world based on consultative democracy with its
associated concepts of political and religious liberty , in which this
observance is possible . Hence my sense of Baha u llah's vision as an Irfan
Republic .
Republican theorists have long argued that the basis of a Republic lay
in virtue and liberty, and in the assumption of the respnsibility of that
liberty . The question has been how to keep a Republic from follwing the
cycle of establishment and internal corruption . The traditional answer has
been to divide power against itself which we see in the U. S. Constitution
framed heavilly by James Madison . I cant see that Baha u llah opposes that
principle. Abdul Baha of course praises the notion of equality before the law
and a form of independent judiciary . The Guardian recognizes this in Baha u
,llah in the Dispensation letter describing the Admin. order with the three
Aristotelian elements of a Republic
which he argues are combined and blended into the Admin. Order of Baha u llah
=END=
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 95 19:16:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: The Guardian's interpretation
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
First let say how much I enjoyed Tony's informative post on
Tahirih and am thrilled to know that Kalimat Press is bringing
out Dr. Banani's translation of Tahirih's poetry -- another
historic contribution!
I also want to second Saman's note on Chris Buck's beautiful post
on moderate language which was most instructive!
On the subject of the Guardian's interpretation, Chris wrote:
> In response to Ahang, my question is this: Where do the
> Writings say that the Guardian is the authorized interpreter
> for Scriptures other than the Baha'i Scriptures? I'm not
> questioning this. Rather, yours is an understanding of the
> Guardian that I simply had never heard of before.
This is an excellent question, but let me answer it with a
question: Where do the Writings say that the Guardian's
authoritative interpretation is limited to Baha'i Writings? Now,
by this question I'm not trying to a smart guy, except I don't
know of any statements that limits his interpretations.
Both the Master and the Guardian have offered interpretation of
the past sacred Scripture. Are we not to understand these as
authoritative expositions? Otherwise how are to read Shoghi
Effendi's statement about Daniels' chap 12 or Abdu'l-Baha's on
chap 54 of Isaiah's? Or is Shoghi Effendi's interpretation of
"Order" in the Persian Bayan is just one of the many possible
explanations and is not the final exposition?
Obviously Chris has once again raised a profoundly important
issue and I for one hope that we have a good, intelligent
discussion around it.
love, ahang.
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Consultation
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 21:03:26 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians,
IMHO, there is a difference between the openness and freedom in
speech, the press, and religion which will be an essential aspect of the
future Baha'i world commonwealth and a negative criticism of official
policy through continual public debates on the wisdom of a particular
administrative decision. Obviously, there is a place for giving
feedback. For instance, the annual district conventions personally
remind me of Athenian democracy or of the eklesia (Greek, in-gathering)
in the Roman Empire.
Here in the U.S., especially since Watergate (though certainly the
attitude was present to varying degrees before that time), Americans
have, by and large, become deeply cynical about the integrity of
governmental officials. Much of that cynicism is understandable. IMV,
any relatively unbiased observation would show that a large proportion
(hopefully not a majority) of political officials are motivated more by
a longing for power, privilege, and prestige than the desire to be
public servants.
Yet, it seems evident to me that the Baha'i model of communication
differs from the argumentative style that is generally practiced in the
U.S. For instance, lobbyists and PACs (political action committees) have
their own agendas, and they will often put pressure on legislators to
allign themselves with their perspectives. IOW, the American framework
of political dialogue is all too often confrontational rather than
consultative (in a Baha'i sense).
Baha'i consultation is, as I see it, open, honest, unity-based,
truth seeking, and non-adversarial. OTOH, common political forms of
discourse are partisan, ulterior, divisive, advantage seeking, and
adversarial. As I have layed it out (admittedly a generalization), these
two styles of communication have little similarity. The national and
district conventions are, it seems to me, good models for us which show
how a spiritual community can dialogue effectively, under ideal
circumstances, with its elected representatives. But even if the spirit
of discussion is not too ideal, we must be patient. Isn't unity more
important than truth?
Criticizing (in the popular sense of the word) political bodies
represents a lack of trust. As I see it, we must strive to be supportive
and trusting of local and national spiritual assemblies - even if we
don't think that they merit it. That is how they grow and mature. We
should, IMO, believe that, as Baha'is, they are sincerely searching for
the truth, too. I feel that this is especially relevant regarding public
criticisms of administrative policy on an email discussion list.
It is one thing to talk about how we might implement and support
current Baha'i policies but another to argue, on an Internet list, that
somehow these policies should be changed. IMHO, it we begin disputing
offical policies outside of a convention, a private letter written to an
institution, etc., we are, by definition, not engaging in direct
consultation with that institution. We are, rather, planting the seeds
of disunity.
Warm greetings to all,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (List Co-Moderator) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: "William P. Collins"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 22:13:26 +0000
Subject: Shoghi Effendi's literary style
It is well-known among careful readers of the beloved Guardian's
works that he quoted extensively from many sources. That he did so
(as in the case of his borrowings from Gibbon) reflects three things
common in Middle Eastern literary discourse: (1) the author whose
words are used is paid a compliment by the use; (2) the one who
quotes demonstrates his own literary attainments; (3) the audience is
honored by being thought intelligent enough to know or discover the
sources of the quotations. As I understood from some knowledgeable
individuals at the World Centre, a number of sources for Shoghi
Effendi's more well-known expressions have been discovered. One that
I came upon was in Shoghi Effendi's personal copy of H. G. Wells'
"The Shape of Things to Come"(first published 1933), in which Shoghi
Effendi clearly marked the phrase "generation of the half-light." The
Guardian put this phrase in quotations in "The Promised Day Is
Come".
No doubt, in the future, scholarly investigation of sources for such
quotations will be undertaken on a vaster scale than is now possible.
Bill Collins
4705541@mcimail.com (h)
wcol@loc.gov (w)
6819 Stoneybrooke Lane, Alexandria, VA 22306
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: talisman
Subject: Insights to the Internet
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 19:11:14 -0800
Hannah offers some insights to the Internet :
-------------------------------------------------------
I have been alerted to the presence of a "Dr. Internet" column which
claims to be authoritative, but in fact contains several errors. This
alternate version obviates this difficulty by making no such claim, but
does try to project the aura of quiet wisdom found in the original "Ask
Dr. Science." It was apparently written by our overnight janitor one
evening when I forgot to logoff. (Yeah, that's the ticket.)
==================================
1. How big is the Internet? When did it start? How did it grow?
The Internet is actually much smaller than most people think. It
is primarily composed of fiber optic cables no thicker than a human
hair, which can be conveniently rolled up and stored in a foot
locker. Janitors at the National Science Foundation do this on the
third Tuesday of every month when they wax the floors.
Since fiber optics are the size of human hairs, they also make
attractive wigs. The next time you watch a Sprint commercial,
you'll see that Candice Bergen's alleged hair is really the T4
backbone.
The earliest origins of the Internet can be traced to Ancient
Greece, where a loosely connected set of networks was used to
discuss exploration in the Black Sea. The Argonets, as they were
then called, were entirely subsidized by the government, and won
one of William Proxmire's first Golden Fleece awards.
The Internet grows hyperbolically, but is usually described
elliptically.
2. Who owns the Internet?
There is no one person or agency that owns the Internet. Instead,
parts of it are owned by the Illuminati and parts are owned by Free
Masons.
3. What do the Internet addresses mean?
Precise meanings are often hard to determine. The address
baker.lib.washington.edu--which is sometimes written
baker@lib.washington.edu--seems to refer to a computer either owned
by a baker or by someone named Baker. This can be deceiving
however; names like this actually refer to where a computer is
located. This one is on top of Mt. Baker.
In addition to names, computers on the Internet also have numbers.
This is part of the whole right brain/left brain thing.
4. Tell me how to get on and off various lists and discussion groups.
Getting off on various lists is currently the subject of pending
legislation.
5. What is "Netiquette?"
"Netiquette" is one of many cutesy neologisms created by combining
two other words. In this case, "network" and "tourniquette"
combine to describe a program that shuts down a computer if it
starts transmitting information too fast.
6. What is "Flaming?"
Along with an improvisational approach to floating point
arithmetic, early Pentium chips were noted for generating heat.
While some hackers speak fondly of roasting marshmallows over their
first P60s, others found themselves badly singed as the chips
caught fire. This "flaming" sometimes occurred while the user was
composing e-mail, resulting in poorly chosen or excessively
vitriolic verbiage.
7. What is "Bandwidth?"
As capacity on the Internet has increased, people have begun to
transmit material other than simple text. One notable example is
audio recordings of rock concerts. These audio files are much
larger than even very long books, so they have become a standard
unit of network usage. One Rolling Stone song equals one "band"
width, and so on.
8. Why can't I FTP to some places?
There are two main reasons for this. The first is that the site
you want to ftp files from is exercising a certain degree of
control over its network resources; in network parlance, this is
called "fascism."
The second reason is that the remote site may be dabbling with such
network fads as gopher or the World Wide Web. This is called
"keeping up with the times."
9. What is the World Wide Web, Gopherspace, etc?
The World Wide Web, or WWW, is an experiment in generating acronyms
that are much more difficult to pronounce than the words they
replace.
Gopherspace is an older network term. In response to the Soviet
space program's early use of dogs in space, NASA mounted a program
to orbit a number of different rodents. The programmers involved
in this project adopted the motto "Gophers in space!" which has
since been shortened. The only actual gopher to go into orbit had
been digging up the carrots in Werner Von Braun's garden, and was
named Veronica after his daughter.
10. Why can't I get some WWW stuff via FTP?
It can be hard to say this, but some users of the Internet are
unable to do things because they are stupid. The comparatively
trivial task of getting an ftp client to do every single thing a
WWW browser can do is beneath this column's attention.
Tune in next time for Ask Dr. Internet--
"I have a master's degree....in Internet!"
=====================================
Dr. Internet, Master of All Knowledge
No official connection to Dr. Science
Steven A. Willoughby
willo@temple.gol.com
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 16:37:12 +1300 (NZDT)
To: belove@sover.net, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: RE: learned in Baha..
Dear Philip,
It is year's end eve, here in the first part of the old world
to see the rising sun... It has been a tough year -- lots of
writing/reading, lots of people contact/teaching, lots of talisman. There
was a winter in the middle of it, which didn't help... Let's hope that
next year we can can have polarisation here -- a reduction in
antagonisms. Every person has an important statement to make and it is
over to each to try to express her/him self appropriately, just as it is
the responsibility of each to listen carefully to what is being said... In
this way, discourse receives dignification...
In your letter you highlight the distinction that I (and others) have made
between two forms of learning. No one here has diminished the value of
secular studies, but it has been my impression that due recognition has not
been given to what might be called wisdom knowledge, which -- I have
suggested -- rotates about an axis of certitude, based on knowledge of and
belief in God... Clearly the certitude of a plumber belongs to the same
family, but is like a child compared with a mature monarch...
You write:
>I'm not one of the Wise and Certain. And I don't know any, but I
>have my suspicions about some people. I wish that when I was younger
>I'd found some, or had the discernment to recognize some. I'd like to
>think I would have made fewer foolish mistakes.
Here I think you go right to the heart of reason why we should seek to
become wise. The world simply is not helped by unwisdom... What you write
here refects my own experience of life. I can recall a time when I turned
to the "experts" of the world and discovered the astonishing barren-ness of
their understanding. Any understanding of the human condition that I have
has chiefly been the product of deepening as a Baha'i, and suffering...
Eric Erikson said that a key life task of people in their 40s and 50s was
assisting younger people through their transitions... I don't know how old
you are Philip... but I cannot imagine that you would not be interested in
seeing young people better established in the world...
>
>Masour, in his inspiring and humbling post, mentioned humility. My
>fantasy is that the Wise and Certain would be humble.
During the Faust (well named) plague I lost his letter... I recall
reading it quickly and thinking it a beautiful gem that I must come back
to..
>
>Therre is a Jewish Legend about the "Lamed Volnic
>
>(I love this story and if anyone knows a source for it, or another
>version of it, I'd love to hear.)
I think Farzin mentioned a similar story some months back...
>
>I think this is a very differnent group than the experts Juan was
>speaking of... at least, as I've always understood him.
Perhaps Juan could respond to this.
Best,
Robert.
PS Welcome back Sandy...
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT ,
"[G. Brent Poirier]"
Cc: Talisman
Subject: RE: Photos of Talisman folk
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 19:38:40 -0800
A very cool idea indeed! I think I'll send before and after pictures of
myself. One taken a couple of months ago and one to be taken in about a year
.
If any Talismanian needs to have their photo digitized, I can do that for
you. Write me offline only and I'll send you my snailmail address and
details. No charge, of course.
Regards,
Hannah
----------
From: [G. Brent Poirier][SMTP:gpoirier@acca.nmsu.edu]
Sent: Friday, 29 December, 1995 20:46 PM
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Photos of Talisman folk
A reminder that Quanta has offered to put photos of the folks here, on
the WWW. Send em in to her at:
Quanta Dawnlight
> 809 Tower Street
> Raleigh, N.C. 27607-7364
=END=
[end of 12/30/95 session]
Talisman emails received 12/31/95
----------------------------------------------------------
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Plumbers and Monarchs
To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 95 23:37:45 EST
Cc: belove@sover.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Stephen Johnston writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Every person has an important statement to make and it is
over to each to try to express her/him self appropriately, just as it is
the responsibility of each to listen carefully to what is being said... In
this way, discourse receives dignification...
In your letter you highlight the distinction that I (and others) have made
between two forms of learning. No one here has diminished the value of
secular studies, but it has been my impression that due recognition has not
been given to what might be called wisdom knowledge, which -- I have
suggested -- rotates about an axis of certitude, based on knowledge of and
belief in God... Clearly the certitude of a plumber belongs to the same
family, but is like a child compared with a mature monarch...
_______________
RESPONSE
*Well said, Nagasena.* (The Questions of King Milinda)
An elegant statement that deserves dignification, Stephen.
Although I might suggest that the *monarch* is not a monarch, but rather
another blue collar worker in another union.
I would like to tell the story of a fellow named Charles
McAllister (sp.?) from Los Gatos, California, who taught me a piece of
*wisdom knowledge* that I'll never forget.
I was home on vacation from Pacific Lutheran University in
Glaucoma (I mean, Tacoma) Washington. I called up the Baha'is of Los Gatos
and attended a function. Charles gave me a ride home.
On the way home, we stopped at a nursing home. There we visited an
elderly Baha'i woman. As we were leaving, a couple of old ladies sitting
in the hallway motioned for me to come over.
One of the ladies cupped her hands over her mouth and whispered
into my ear: "Do you know you're walking with a black man?" she asked.
"Sure," I said, "he's my best friend!" A look of proper revulsion rippled
across her face, as I ran to catch up with Charles.
In the car, I told Charles what happened. He said, "You know,
Chris, this is how I know the Baha'i Faith is true. My rule of thumb for
truth is this:
*Truth unifies. Lies divide.*
I was stunned. This Baha'i did not quote scripture, nor did he
surmount an invisible pulpit to pontificate. I think Stephen hit this one
right on the head: This was *wisdom knowledge*.
Who are the *Learned in Baha'*? On a continuum, all of us, in the
individual sense of the term, to some degree or other. That's just
my opinion.
Formally, the Learned are the Institution of the Learned.
Individually, some outstanding Baha'i teachers and Baha'i scholars have
been identified. It's not up to us to judge who else may or may not be,
except possibly to speculate.
I think that Juan was simply trying to explain what Baha'u'llah
may have meant by the *Learned in Baha'* at a time when there were Hands of
the Cause, but no Counsellors or ABMs or Assistants. Juan identified some
of these as seminarians, such as Mirza Abu'l-Fadl.
Some Baha'i academics might or might not be the West's counterpart
to some of the seminarians/theologians Baha'u'llah might have had in mind.
If so, this argues for a need to support Baha'i Studies. Why else would
the Universal House of Justice wish to bring into being the *Association
for Baha'i Studies*, and to see Baha'i Studies furthered in institutions
of higher learning?
But, in the beloved Master's commentary on the Aqdas verse, which
was not published in the Aqdas translation, scholars were listed as last.
Effective Baha'i teachers were considered more learned. Their knowledge
was put to better, or shall I say, more immediate use.
If my recollection of the Master's gloss on the Aqdas verse is
correct, *wisdom knowledge* is perhaps more important than academic
knowledge. Both can benefit from each other, IMO.
Thanks, Stephen, for an eloquent post.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 21:47:19 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Stephen Bedingfield
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca, Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Chris' Research Question: Paradise
> Chris Buck wrote:
> > (3) How many kinds of Paradises are there in the Writings?
My understanding is that the Revealed Writings are themselves part of the
prophecied Paradise. In the Iqan Baha'u'llah identifies the "huri" of
"Paradise" which were previously "untouched by any man" to be the
mysteries which He unsealed, which had never before been understood by
anyone. Likewise, the special foods and drinks of Paradise are
transmitted through the Writings.
In a Pilgrim's note the Master said that the verse in the Gospel (Luke?)
where it says that in that Day they shall come from the North and from the
South and from the East and from the West, and sit down together in the
Kingdom of God, refers to the friends from various parts coming together
in the Baha'i Feasts and gatherings.
=END=
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 22:08:00 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Christopher Buck
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu, Christopher Buck
Subject: Re: Spheres of Conferred Infallibility
On Sat, 30 Dec 1995, Christopher Buck wrote:
> So, I pose this question: What are the spheres of the Guardian's
> conferred infallibility? Is the Guardian infallible on everything he makes a
> pronouncement on?
And a related question, which arose in my mind when Tony Lee was good
enough to spend a great deal of time offering editorial comment on my
paper on the infallibility of the House. I would like to have some
feedback from those who feels that the *authority* of the Guardian and the
House, and the *infallibility* of the Guardian and the House, may not be
coterminous. Do you see support for this in the writings? Or do you feel
it's implicit?
Also, a few days ago, in the letter from the Guardian's secretary on his
behalf when he said that the Guardian is not infallible in economics,
etc.
****
I was thinking of a topic for an article:
"The Most Great Infallibility and the Most Great 'Etc.'" How does one
determine the parameters of this "etc."?
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
talisman@indiana.edu; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 00:23:35 -0500
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 00:23:35 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: American Bahai/Consultation
Dear Mark ,
As one possible answer to youe question " is not unity more important
than truth " I would say no - not if you mean that in a hierarchical or
privileged sense .
What "meaning" could unity possible have in a context of the absence
of truth . It is to me much like arguing that unity is more important than
justice . These are not opposed concepts. With respect to justice Baha u
llah states its purpose is " the appearence of unity amongst men ." I would
suggest that "truth " has a similar function . The full range of Bah u llah's
principles have "meaning" in relation to creating the conditions in which
unity may appear .
The historical sociologist in me wonders about the implications of the
position you describe . Your seeming equation of unity with administrative
loyalty does not engage the argument put forth by Juan about a Bahai "public"
. What you describe has less to do with unity , in my view , than it does
different perception of "liberty" . Your characterization of not
questioning administrative decisions makes me a little uncomfortable . The
only option we have is one of asking how to implement existing decisions .
This has a long history in Western Civilization as a form of Liberty . It is
what Orlando Patterson refers to as "sovereignal freedom" . " the organic
version of sovereignal freedom - the idea that we are most free when we find
our rightful place in, and wholly identify with , a hierarchical, purposeful
order that is freer and more powerful than its members . . it has been the
dominant conception of freedom for most of western history. " This is or
was the freedom characteristic of the Medieval Catholic Church . I am not and
I dont think Baha u llah was opposed to such a conception of freedom. What
Bah u llah endorses as well is the other strand of Western freedom which we
know as personal liberty . This is the sacredness of conscience which Abdu'l
Baha endorses .
I would agree that the Bahai Commonwealth contains an element of
"sovereignal freedom " . It is the participation in a purposeful order which
constitutes our freedom . But i would sugest it is not a hierarchical order .
It is a democratic order . The challenge of Baha u llah it seems to me is
to combine a sense of organic solidarity with personal liberty. Personal
liberty left to itself results in the atomistic nihilism we find in the
world. " Sovereignal fredom " left to itself results in that other hooror of
the 20th century totalitarianism - in both its fascist and communist
varieties . Baha u llah is , in myview trying to create an Order which
accomodated both sovereignal freedom and personal liberty.
The heart of this freedom is the pursuit of Irfan and this pursuit is
undertaken in a consultative democracy not a command hierarchy . it is
important to admit that even Nazis argued that the third reich was a state of
freedom - sovereignal freedom .
To try and create polar opposites out of these froms of "liberty " does
not in myview do justice to Baha u llah . The conservative critique of
personal liberety has value . taken by itself we have an atomistic nihilism.
Whatever else fascists do they dont have huge levels of suicide . It is
something more radical types need to confront . The other form- facism-
given the power of science and its derivative technology also needs to be
faced up to by conservatives . Whatever else sovereignal free states do they
dont have high leves of justice or tolerate the pursuit of truth . I don t
think any reasonable Bahai could argue that either situation is very
characteristic of unity .
The interplay of good and evil in human history ought to give us pause
and simply being Bahais does not alter the interplay of those two realities
in human life .Their is a triumph here in the hope for as Lincoln states "
the better angels of our nature" there is also the tragic perspective that
James Madison understood that " if men were angels government would not be
necessary ." Bahais are not yet angels whether they serve on administrative
institutions or not .
The larger issue which I keep hammering away on is this . the *Order"
of Baha u llah is not simply administration. Administration is not intended
to be the centerpiece of Bahai community . To revolve all discussion of
principle as though everything centers around administration misses , I
believe , the point of what Baha u llah was up to . He was about an Irfan
Republic . And that has a primary role for the Mashriq u l Adhkar . The
reality of that institution has not reached consciousness yet . If we try
and collapse all language- games as Wittgenstein would say - into the
langauge of administration it never wil reach consciousness , it is utterance
which gives reality and meaning to our existence. Baha u llah notes this
with resoect to His comment about words or utterance in the Tablet of
Maqsud " No man can demonsrate his knowledge save by means of words ." In
short if you cant speak it , it cant be known . He goes on to speak of how
utterance should be spoken .He does not however suggest that speech shuld be
curtailed to administratively approved forms or contexts . I find this
Tablet BTW a remarkable treatise on liberty in both its "sovereignal" and
personal forms .
I think Wittgenstein has something to say here . He describes language
and its use and therefore the "meaning" of being around four parameters .Each
of these parameters has its own language - game which in turn gives rise to
what he calls "forms of life. " Each of these forms of life in turn has
these four parameters associated with it .
1) Command - This meaning as rule folowing . Imperatives , rules ,
customs and law .
2) Customs - This meaning is the realm of ceremony , celebration,
mytho -poesis , ritual .
3) Physiognomy - This meaning is design , art , arctitecture , the outer
appearance of forms
4) Constructions - This meaning is structures , concepts, science ,
uses
If we visualize these four along a vertical and horizontal axis it is
helpful . The first and second at respective ends of a vertical axis and
third and fourth along a horizontal axis .
The tendency in human history has been to take one or more of the "forms of
life ' associated with one of these domains and collapse it to the center of
existence . The center is what we might call unity it is "life itself or as I
prefer the "presence of being' - Spirit . This attempt to force all forms of
life and there associated language games into The Center is what gives us our
trouble as human beings .
Thus in ESW pages 11-35 esp 11-15 Baha u llah while discussing the
reality , station and meaning of unity ( I might add I have yet to find a
bettter discussuin of this in English ) presages Wittgenstein, in myview,
by 50 years when He comments " at one time we spoke in the LANGUAGE of the
law-giver at another in that of the truth seeker and mystic. " He goes on to
say but always unity was the goal . But note he does not dismiss either the
language of the law or that of truth . Both it would seem are essential
characteristics of arriving at unity . The center then of my Wittgenstein
vertical and horizontal axis is unity . It is that ineffable reality that can
barely be expressed in language . It is Baha u llah says in Epistle "
sublime" . How do we know the "meaning" of unity? By pursuing one or more
language games and not allowing one of then or one of the quadrants of our
axis to overwhelm and submerge all the others . The top vertical dimension
is the language of administration . Privelige that forn of language and
attempt to insert it to the center of Life and all possible "meaning
"collapses into one limited form of dialogue. This is what in the 20th
century we have experienced politicaly as totalitarianism . I think Bahais
have to be on guard to not inadvertantly reduce the richness of Baha u llah's
various language - games to the language of administration . Our sense of
the "prsesence of being " will be greatly diminished . And we will have litle
to say of any "meaning" to the world . The bottom vertical axis we might
think of as the form of life associated with the Mashriqu l Adhkar . The
third form the right hand side of a horizontal axix ( construction ) is the
world of science Try and collapse this domain to the center of dialogue and
we have "scientism" or positivistic science . When this privileged we get
Nuclear bombs . Privilege the bottom vertical axis and we end up with
religious fundamentalism. Privilege the 4th domain outer forms or
appearences and we have great monuments but no celebration just making
things or "it" Sort of like being all dressed up with no place to go .
materialism perhaps . Each of the possible forms of life asociated with each
of these four "meanings" of language each have there own language - ,games .
It is in the development and expression of these various forms and there
languages that the "meaning" of life and any of its forms becomes apparent .
Try and eliminate or collapse - that is privilege - one or the other of
these "forms " or there "language - games and life is impoverished . In a
nut shell if we do this unity is not going to appear "amongst men. "
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 95 21:52 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Monotheism
Ever wonder what posts to Talisman would be like if they had e-mail back
before the turn of the first century, AD? Me too. At least one or two would
read like this:
****
TO:Talisman, first century AD
FROM: Advil Ben Gay, Corinth
I've been following this monotheism thread with interest, and have had some
experience with the controversial concept myself, and I admit that at first
blush, it sounded like a good idea at the time. The one god business, that
is. On the surface, it appealed to a guy like me weary of keeping track of
all those deities, their diverse genders and family squabbles. The State as
a god irked me from the get-go, and the Jews seemed to have some sort of
right idea but you had to be one of them or you couldn't come in. My pals
and I used to loiter outside the Temple walls to catch the monotheistic
vibes, but we were outsiders in more ways than one. Well, to cut to the
chase, we hear about this Jesus guy -- an unemployed carpenter who got
offed for validating what the Jews were saying but making it more accessible
and broader without all the intricate rules and regulations. Maybe I just
got caught up in the enthusiasm of my youth, but a whole bunch of us became
Christians and started teaching like crazy. I mean we were kicking gentile
butt! We were really into it and no one can deny that we were on fire with
the Faith. No one did more for Christianity than us, no one traveled more,
taught more or any of that. We sang and danced and memorized stuff we heard
and the persecution of our brothers in the Faith made us teach all the more.
We were on the verge of really making this Christianity thing a major force,
then the "organization freaks" started to get uptight about what we were
doing. The "church elders" over in Corinth just didn't know how to take
advantage of our dynamic example -- ok, so some of us were a bit outrageous,
communal, and gave the impression of easy sexual vices, true or not -- so
we all went home and one by one decided that Jesus was a false prophet
'cause if He really was the Son of God or something like that He wouldn't
let idiots exist and non-visionary adults be church elders. Now I think
about those poor so-called Saints who got killed for being Christians and I
think wow! What a waste. If they hadn't bought into it, they would be alive
today and probably have good businesses and nice homes. And it is too bad.
Had I been treated the way I deserved, I could have convinced people that
Jesus was real just as if I really believed it myself. My folks, to tell you
the truth, were happy I gave it up. "Religion is fine in its place," said
Mom, "but it shouldn't be the motivating purpose of your life."
While I still find the idea of monotheism attractive in theory, it is
essentially restrictive and prejudicial because it discriminates against all
the other gods -- false or not -- and attempts to do away with the great
diversity of gods that make life so varied. If there really was a Divine
Voice to explain things, or encourage us, it would be nice, but I would not
be too enthusiastic about paying much attention to it because of my earlier
disappointing experiences with a so-called Divine Messengers -- Abraham and
Moses wanted to mutilate guys private parts and make them take a billion
baths to be a believer and keep track of 613 different rules ; Jesus was
smart enough to do away with all the laws, but obviously not invested with
enough power or wisdom to make sure that His down-line managment was on the
ball.
What I guess it boils down to is this: monotheism is an interesting
intellectual excercise or theory, but not much more, and it leaves out too
many people like me who want our own gods, be our own gods, or have no gods
at all.
***
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Paradises
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 00:01:10 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Re: paradise:
Baha'u'llah said that the paradise and hell of existence are in all
the worlds of God. And, of course, He also said that the worlds of God
are infinite in their number.
IMHO, paradise refers to an entity's attainment of its purpose -
linking with divinity according to its degree of knowledge (cohesion,
growth, sensation, mental magnetism, etc.). IOW, paradise, as I see it,
is the realm of spirit or essence (the Holy Spirit, the spirit of faith,
the animal spirit, etc.) - purposeful power. Vertically, its expressions
are as varied as the varieties of creation. Horizontally, its degrees of
attainment are infinite.
TTFN,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (List Co-Moderator) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 22:16:44 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: The first Bosch Advanced Academy .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians .
I have just enjoyed 10 wonderful days with a whole variety of students
. One of them Scott Phelps took masses of notes which he has made
available if you would like a copy of them just send me a request and I
will bounce the file to you . We covered Economics , Islam , the
Covenant and the History , Farhad Sabetan and myself were the tutors
and David Hofman kindly gave insights into his service on the House and
his views on the future development of the Baha'i World .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Consultation
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 01:27:44 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi, Terry -
Thank you for your message. As I see it, unity (in diversity), as
expressed in consultation, in social evolution, etc., is the spiritual
technology, or methodology, to reach truth. That is why, I think, we are
told to obey our assemblies even should we have reason to believe that
what they say may not, at least from one's own particular perspective,
be the truth. Of course, individuals are free to privately appeal a
decision to a higher institution so long as they do not stir up
dissension (disunty) in doing so.
As I see it, God blesses actions performed in the spirit of unity.
If we unite with an administrative decision, obeying it out of loyalty
to the Centre of the Covenant (Who watches over assemblies), we can, I
believe, trust that, through our own unity with the assembly, the truth
of the situation will eventually be found, and any injustices will be
righted.
Private assessments of truth may or may not be valid and, as we
know, we often change our views of what is true as we continue to deepen
in the Teachings. If each one of us maintained her or his right to
engage in public behavior according to one's own determination of the
truth, in spite of administrative guidance, what the House referred to
as "administrative unity" would be sacrificed for the sake of
contemporary secular notions of "individual rights and freedoms."
One of my difficulties with the views put forth by some persons on
this list is that they seem to approximate Weber's Western liberal
critique of Marxian radicalism. Personally, my sympathies lie more on
the side of spiritual radicalism (such as with Pitirim Sorokin). Weber
had a love-hate relationship with bureaucracy, but he recognized its
many faults and was obviously fearful of the direction to which it might
eventually take the West. However, to me, the *real* and *enduring*
solution to the problems we face in the West cannot be found primarily
in bureaucratic reform, or in improving formal organizational efficiency
(though it couldn't hurt), but in radically changing the narrative
structure from one based on the symbol systems of the old order to one
based on the discursive framework of the Baha'i Teachings.
At the heart of this new framework, IMO, is the Baha'i metaphysic of
unity in diversity. Consultation requires not only that one be frank and
open but that one look for truth as it emerges through the process of,
in this case, consulting, in what I would regard as acceptable settings
(such as in private correspondance or in district conventions), with the
appropriate administrative institutions. That is my view, and, in the
spirit of consultation, I certainly have no wish to enforce it on others.
I agree with you, in general, about the World Order of Baha'u'llah
being an "irfan republic," as you call it. Certainly, as you say, the
Baha'i system is not just administration. The polity is the form; but
without the spirit of faith, it will be of no use. However, as I think
I have mentioned to you before, I would suggest that it might be useful
to add a third "house" to the conception, making it a trinity of Houses
of Worship, Houses of Justice, *and* Houses of Finance (a.k.a. the local
storehouse to be administered by the "trusted ones" of each local
community). IMV, the economy of a community is on par with the other two
in importance (i.e., the life-blood of a community) and, in common
practice, it, too, plays a central role in the Nineteen-Day Feast.
You write:
T >How do we know the "meaning" of unity? By pursuing one or more
T >language games and not allowing one of then or one of the quadrants
T >of our axis to overwhelm and submerge all the others .
I concur with you that unity, in one sense, implies that one must
accept multiple spiritual narratives as pointing to the same truth. As
Bhagavan Das wrote:
To cognise an idea through the veil of one language
only, is to see it with one eye only, as it were,
from one standpoint, in one perspective only. To see
it through the eye of another language also, is to
see it with both eyes, from many angles of vision,
through a stereoscope. A new fullness of meaning
breaks out of the two sets of words, and stands
forth in clear relief, almost independent of all
words.
Bright blessings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (List Co-Moderator) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: curtotti@ozemail.com.au
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 18:51:55 +1100 (EST)
To: Member1700@aol.com
Subject: Re: American Baha'i?
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi Tony,
Just curious as to why you say it is a secret and private system - the
Feast is a public forum open to all Baha'is and is the place where people
can and do criticise, question and urge the institutions. What is it that
you feel you could not say in such a public forum?
Regards,
Michael
>I think that Juan has summarized the problems with a closed and secret system
>of Baha'i government quite brilliantly and succinctly.
> However, if I can add for the umpteenth time (and to the utter boredom of
>older Talismanians) that the conception of Baha'i administration which allows
>the individual to only speak privately and secretly to the institutions makes
>the development of civil discourse and civil society impossible. It not only
>makes fascism a possibility, it makes it the only possibility.
> There can, in such a system, be no such thing as public opinion. No such
>thing as a free press. No such thing as open consultation or tentative
>discussion of policy, outside of the institutional elites. There can be no
>such thing as Talisman, since if anyone has anything to say, he should just
>send it to a letter to the House of Justice and then be silent ever after.
> Clearly, we are at a point in the development of the Baha'i community
>when such a system can no longer work.
>
>Warmest,
>Tony
=END=
From: curtotti@ozemail.com.au
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 18:51:43 +1100 (EST)
To: Juan R Cole
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Juan,
I am new to this list and I was interested to read your post on this issue.
You wrote:
>Baha'u'llah spoke of popular
>sovereignty, of democratic consultation, of the advent of Reason among
>all and the end of Absolutism, ...
I would be interested if you could post some quotations as my own
perception is that Baha'u'llah seems to place sovereignty with kings and
God - I haven't come across the explicit placement of sovereignty with the
people. Of course he did praise consultation with the people - but the
context (ie. the Tablet to Queen Victoria) seems to place such consultation
in a subsidiary role to the authority of the Government.
>
>Third, the system has extreme practical difficulties. It fosters a sense
>among elected Baha'i officials that they are or should be above
>criticism, leading them to develop thin skins on occasion and in some
>instances an almost Nixonian leadership style. It disallows Baha'i
>journalism, since the "public" has been defined as having no right to
>know and as being irrelevant to decision-making. It deprives the Faith
>of flexibility. Since elected officials can count on only receiving
>criticism one by one from isolated individuals, they can easily dismiss
>any individual's critique as just one opinion, and do whatever they
>please. Once a bad policy is enacted, there is no way to reverse it,
>more especially if the elected officials come to feel they have a vested
>interest in the policy. In many ways, this system has many of the same
>flaws as did the Communist bureaucracies in Eastern Europe, and, of
>course, they collapsed under their own weight.
As a member of a Local Assembly, as I am sure many of us have been, I
thought it would be useful to offer my personal reflections on these
comments, as after all when all is said and done, you are talking not about
some impersonal "them" but just ordinary Baha'is who happen to be elected
to the institutions. My own experience (in a Western country) is that
criticism is carried to an extreme by Baha'i communities and often the pain
that members of Assembly's and Committee's feel in this situation is deep
and justifiable. Unlike professional politicians, no Baha'i asks to serve
on such institutions, and rather than being carried out for personal gain
these Baha'is serve out of a sense of Baha'i duty. Inevitably, not being
expert, these Baha'is make many errors, and are often subjected to not
isolated instances of criticism, but a constant assault from members of the
Community believing they know and could have done better, if only they had
been on the institution in question. The criticism more over is often
futile and destructive and the type of activity I am referring to (which
does not include all criticism) reflects not a sense of civic duty - but
ego ridden attitudes of those launching the criticism. Often many of the
difficulties arise from lack of manpower and resources - but in my
experience it is extremely rare that such criticism is coupled by personal
offers of assistance to remedy the problem. Having witnessed this sort of
behaviour over a number of years I am still stunned that some have so
little compassion towards those bearing the responsibility of Baha'i office
as to not give them the love and support they deserve.
This way of thinking is of course entirely alien to the way in which we
react to our secural governments about whom many of us are deeply cynical -
a cynicism born of bitter experience. My experience with the Baha'i Faith
is entirely different however. The Faith is blessed with an abundance of
devoted and committed people who are willing to sacrifice their own time
and interests in order to serve the Community generally for free. We
should value and nurture this resource - or we will inevitably lose it.
>
>Finally, the system described is highly undemocratic and could easily
>deteriorate into a form of fascism.
This is a questionable conclusion. The Baha'i system is democratic in
important senses that even so called parliamentery democracies don't aspire
to.
- annual secret ballot elections with no campaigning (this is more
democractic than any system you can care to mention) - people are free to
vote for whoever they like and can within twelve months remedy strong
dissatisfaction with an Assembly by totally replacing the personnel -
whether they do so depends on the maturity of the electorate not on in
built systems of oppression.
- consultation with the people is a requirement of the system (Baha'is do
-----------
indeed have the right to know - as Assembly's have the duty to consult with
them)
- there are processes of appeal to national and global elected
institutions against any decision (again something no other "democratic"
institution can claim)
- criticism is a right and a duty (albeit one that must be exercised
responsibly.
- decision makers are only subject to their own consciences - there
is no system through which personal interest for re-election can operate to
distort decision making towards the the vested interests of powerful lobby
groups (again a flaw of many other democratic decision making systems)
As to your concern that this system might descend into fascism, again my
personal experience does not suggest this is a danger. Personal power and
the Baha'i consultative system are incompatible - where someone tries to
operate by exercise of personal power (eg shouting down others - using
personal connections, insisting every one else follow their view etc) the
system seems to come to a grinding halt - disunity develops - people become
dispirited and so forth - there develops in fact a situation where there is
no effective power to exercise. It is only when individuals give up
attachment to their personal will (which is probably the essence of a
fascist mentality) that the system fires up and is successful. This seems
to be an inbuilt feedback mechanism - the Assemblies are spiritual
institutions - however their proper functioning depends on the individuals
behaving in a spiritual manner in the Assembly context - people are sooner
or later forced to do so if they wish to be happy in their service on an
Assembly. It is about as far from facism as you will ever get.
Why could two Baha'is (i.e. yourself and myself - have come to such
radically different views on this issue) - perhaps this difference arises
from our personal experiences of the Baha'i institutions and therefore
reflects particular regional and individual practices rather than
justifying universal conclusions about the system. Perhaps the only way to
resolve such an issue would be empirical study of the way the system
operates in a wide variety of contexts - not just one part of the world -
we are after all a global faith.
Regards
Michael Curtotti
(curtotti@ozemail.com.au)
=END=
From: Kkonline@aol.com
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 03:12:23 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: learned in Baha..
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: banani@ucla.edu (Amin Banani)
To: Kkonline@aol.com
Date: 95-12-30 19:50:47 EST
Dear kk--
A comment--one thing I know is that the Hands of the Cause (part of the
Institution of the Learned) are not required to have any formal education.
Amin's father was illiterate as well as uneducated. This, of course, did
not prevent him from moving about in the world--in every sense of that
expression--and becoming "successful" (materially and spiritually). You
can put that on Talisman for me.
Love,
Sheila
>S-
>Just one more...
>kk
>
>---------------------
>Forwarded message:
>From: belove@sover.net
>Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
>To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
>CC: talisman@indiana.edu, 748-9178@mcimail.com
>Date: 95-12-29 16:41:39 EST
>
>
>On Fri, 29 Dec 1995 00:51:22 +1300 (NZDT) Robert Johnston wrote:
>>Dear Philip,
>> Re:
>>>Are you saying then, that, according to the Writings, the "Learned"
>>>are those, and only those who have attained certitude?
>>
>>Briefly, yes. However, nothing human is ever absolute; and I
>imagine Hands
>>sometimes enter into conditions of soul where they entertain
>doubts...
>>
>>Robert.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Robert, you've defined the term, "learned" in this way would change
>the whole discussion. In this sense, "learned" has very little to do
>with Ph.D., school learning, or technical expertese.
>
>It sounds like "wisdom." Can a Ph.D. be wise? Can a Ph.D. be
>foolish? Can a Ph.D. be wizened? Is there any relationship between
>school learning and wisdom?
>
>There is a kind of elite of the wise and certain and they act
>differently than the elite of the "learned" in the more traditional
>sense.
>
>I'm not one of the Wise and Certain. And I don't know any, but I
>have my suspicions about some people. I wish that when I was younger
>I'd found some, or had the discernment to recognize some. I'd like to
>think I would have made fewer foolish mistakes.
>
>Masour, in his inspiring and humbling post, mentioned humility. My
>fantasy is that the Wise and Certain would be humble.
>
>Therre is a Jewish Legend about the "Lamed Volnic. "I think the
>phrase means "the eighty eight." The legend is that, following the
>story of how God promised to spare the city of Sodom if then
>righteous men could be found, God spares all creation becuase their
>are eighty eight righteous souls alive on earth. It is becauase, and
>only because of their righteousness that the earth even exists today.
>
>And here is the kicker to the legend. No one knows who these people
>are. And they don't even know who they are!
>
>(I love this story and if anyone knows a source for it, or another
>version of it, I'd love to hear.)
>
>But, back to the thread. These eighty eight would be my fantasy of
>the Learned, the Wise and Certain. (Big Jewish shrug of the shoulders
>here.)
>
>I think this is a very differnent group than the experts Juan was
>speaking of... at least, as I've always understood him.
>
>
>Philip
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------
>Name: Philip Belove
>E-mail: belove@sover.net
>Date: 12/28/95
>Time: 12:44:21
>
>This message was sent by Chameleon
>-------------------------------------
>Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
>Einstein
Sheila Banani
2320 Alta Avenue, Santa Monica, California 90402
Tel (310) 394-5449
Fax (310) 394-6167
E-Mail: Banani@UCLA.Edu (Sheila)
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 10:26:30 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: William Cormick, etc.
There is an article on William Cormick, the physician who met the Bab in
Encyclopedia Iranica, by Moojan Momen. After he was dismissed as
physician to Naser al-Din Shah as part of the latter's policy of avoiding
dependence on British subjects, he returned to Tabriz where he ran a drug
store for many years. Both his mother and his wife were Armenian
Christians of Tabriz. His wife was named Tamar and was the sister of the
wife of another Englishman living in Tabriz.
Mashriq al-Adhkar: I suspect that the prototype of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar
was the Islamic mosque complex. A fully developed mosque complex
contained a place of public worship, charitable institutions such as
hospitals and public kitchens, a library, a school, a hospice, etc. It
was also an independent instutition supported by an endowment.
Feast: The origin of the feast--in both the Bayan and Aqdas--is the
*personal* obligation to display hospitality once a month. It had
nothing to do with administration. In the early American Baha'i
community the feast was a feast--i.e., people prayed and ate. The
administrative element was added by Shoghi Effendi, who needed a venue
for the conduct of community business and who, I suspect, wished to
discourage the American Baha'i custom of Sunday worship services. It
seems probable to me that in more developed Baha'i communities,
administration will be much less important to most Baha'is and worship
much more important. Anyway, the real Baha'i worship service is morning
prayers. (It has generally been my experience that feasts are better if
there is more and better prayers and food and less business.)
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:28:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: curtotti@ozemail.com.au
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
On Sun, 31 Dec 1995 curtotti@ozemail.com.au wrote:
> Dear Juan,
>
> I am new to this list and I was interested to read your post on this issue.
Do let's hear something about your background. I take it you live in
Australia?
> You wrote:
>
> >Baha'u'llah spoke of popular
> >sovereignty, of democratic consultation, of the advent of Reason among
> >all and the end of Absolutism, ...
>
> I would be interested if you could post some quotations as my own
> perception is that Baha'u'llah seems to place sovereignty with kings and
> God - I haven't come across the explicit placement of sovereignty with the
> people. Of course he did praise consultation with the people - but the
> context (ie. the Tablet to Queen Victoria) seems to place such consultation
> in a subsidiary role to the authority of the Government.
I recommend to you an article I wrote, "Iranian Millenarianism and
Democratic Thought in the 19th Century," which appeared in the
*International Journal of Middle East Studies*, vol. 24 (1992):1-26. A
good university library should have this journal.
Basically, I have discovered that we have not appreciated the degree to
which Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha were radical democrats, largely
because of problems of vocabulary, translation, and recognition of the
original contexts. The Ottoman Empire and Qajar Iran were absolute,
divine-right monarchies wherein advocating parliamentary governance was
strictly prohibited under law. Baha'u'llah's Tablet to Queen Victoria
breaks that law. He praises her for placing the reins of "consultation"
(al-mushawarah) in the hands of the people (the Arabic text does not say
"representatives of the people). As Bernard Lewis has shown,
"consultation" in this period means "democratic consultation." Arabic
lacked a word for "democracy" and this word, with rich resonances in
earlier political thought, was adopted. Baha'u'llah in the Tablet of
Salman explicitly says that monarchy will not survive unless kings stop
trying to govern by themselves. And in the Aqdas Baha'u'llah predicts
that Iran will be governed by "jumhur an-nas." Ami Ayalon has shown that
"jumhur" itself came to mean both "republic" and "democracy" in this
period. In classical Arabic it was a synonym more or less of "nas"
(people), and it is not clear why Baha'u'llah should have repeated
himself (a public of the people?) except if he was using "jumhur" in the
new sense of "democracy." In any case, the Aqdas certainly predicts and
approves of the idea of popular sovereignty. In an untranslated Tablet
published in M.A. Faydi's book of passages relating to the revelation of
the Tablets to the monarchs, Baha'u'llah explicitly says that
"absolutism" (as-sultah al-mutlaqah) is destined for the dustbin of
history, and that the this is because of the advent of Reason (al-`aql)
among all. As I have said before, Baha'u'llah in his own context was the
equivalent of a Thomas Jefferson, defying absolute monarchs by calling
for their demotion to constitutional rulers, with real power given into
th hands of the people (this is also explicit in `Abdu'l-Baha's 1875
Secret of Divine Civilization).
There is, moreover, *no difference* in the vocabulary whereby Baha'u'llah
describes parliamentary institutions of a civil sort and that whereby he
describes Baha'i institutions. Democratic consultation is his watchword
in both instances.
> >Third, the system has extreme practical difficulties. It fosters a sense
> >among elected Baha'i officials that they are or should be above
> >criticism, leading them to develop thin skins on occasion and in some
> >instances an almost Nixonian leadership style. It disallows Baha'i
> >journalism, since the "public" has been defined as having no right to
> >know and as being irrelevant to decision-making. It deprives the Faith
> >of flexibility. Since elected officials can count on only receiving
> >criticism one by one from isolated individuals, they can easily dismiss
> >any individual's critique as just one opinion, and do whatever they
> >please. Once a bad policy is enacted, there is no way to reverse it,
> >more especially if the elected officials come to feel they have a vested
> >interest in the policy. In many ways, this system has many of the same
> >flaws as did the Communist bureaucracies in Eastern Europe, and, of
> >course, they collapsed under their own weight.
>
> As a member of a Local Assembly, as I am sure many of us have been, I
> thought it would be useful to offer my personal reflections on these
> comments, as after all when all is said and done, you are talking not about
> some impersonal "them" but just ordinary Baha'is who happen to be elected
> to the institutions. My own experience (in a Western country) is that
> criticism is carried to an extreme by Baha'i communities and often the pain
> that members of Assembly's and Committee's feel in this situation is deep
> and justifiable.
I have, of course, served on LSA's myself, and I have no desire to
detract from the selfless service proffered by their members, nor to
authorize endless nitpicking of routine decisions. However, if it is
true that LSAs are under the barrage of criticism you describe, it may be
that there are structural reasons for this. The community may feel it
should be consulted more about decisions that affect it. Some LSAs act
high-handedly, as when they tell Baha'is what they can or cannot read, or
what they can post on e-mail (!). Rob suggests that such lapses derive
from a lack of consultation, but I do not think this always the case.
Consultation as a process does not necessarily produce good policy, and
there is no obvious way to change bad policy in the Baha'i system.
Have you ever seen an instance of honest, searching Baha'i journalism
about our own Institutions? I do not mean mere complaint, but analyis of
policy-making and its implications. In the U.S., the American Baha'i is
an official organ whereby the NSA tells the community what is what. It
is not in any way interactive or reflective of the community's own
concerns. In fact, there are almost no independent Baha'i print media,
and certainly none that intelligently examine current Baha'i affairs (the
revived World Order under Rob's leadership sometimes comes close).
> >
> >Finally, the system described is highly undemocratic and could easily
> >deteriorate into a form of fascism.
>
> This is a questionable conclusion. The Baha'i system is democratic in
> important senses that even so called parliamentery democracies don't aspire
> to.
>
> - annual secret ballot elections with no campaigning (this is more
> democractic than any system you can care to mention) - people are free to
> vote for whoever they like and can within twelve months remedy strong
> dissatisfaction with an Assembly by totally replacing the personnel -
> whether they do so depends on the maturity of the electorate not on in
> built systems of oppression.
This is fine for a small community; the system really is oriented toward
the village! But in a large community like Los Angeles, how do you even
know who all the better candidates are. In fact, what happens is that
once someone is elected they tend to be elected over and over again. In
Los Angeles, it is no secret that there have been problems with the
functioning of the LSA, and the NSA at one point even directly
intervened. And yet when elections resumed the same individuals were
elected again (not that any one of them was necessarily at fault for the
problems). The same thing is true of the US NSA, wherein an incumbent
has never been turned out of office, even though on May 19 1994 the
Universal House of Justice issued that body the sternest reprimand in the
history of the Faith.
In other words, as it grows, the Baha'i system faces problems of voters
having sufficient information to vote intelligently. In large
communities or at the national level, the only names that are known tend
to be the incumbents, so they tend to be reelected. Since policy
decisions are on the whole not reported to the community, few Baha'is
have any idea of what their NSA has actually done the previous year, and
have no basis for deciding whether it has done a good job (this flaw
derives from the lack of Baha'i journalism).
> - consultation with the people is a requirement of the system (Baha'is
do
> -----------
> indeed have the right to know - as Assembly's have the duty to consult with
> them)
Well, of course, some LSA's do not in fact bother to consult the local
community much. But these procedures, even when they work, work best in
small local communities. It is not clear they function well in Los
Angeles or at a National level.
>
> - there are processes of appeal to national and global elected
> institutions against any decision (again something no other "democratic"
> institution can claim)
Some on Talisman have seen these appeal processes not to work very well
to redress real problems.
> - criticism is a right and a duty (albeit one that must be exercised
> responsibly.
But, in the current system this right is to be exercised only in a
private letter or at Feast, district convention, or the national
convention. None of these venues is likely to give much weight to the
suggestion of a single individual.
> - decision makers are only subject to their own consciences - there
> is no system through which personal interest for re-election can operate to
> distort decision making towards the the vested interests of powerful lobby
> groups (again a flaw of many other democratic decision making systems)
I agree with you here. The major flaw in current parliamentary regimes
is that they have been subverted by big money and democratic publics have
been turned into helpless "masses."
However, the Baha'i system also has flaws. The autonomy of the
decision-makers should be a *republican* autonomy of conscience, wherein
the elected representative votes her conscience after consulting with
constituents and gathering relevant information. Baha'is on the whole
have misinterpreted this republican system (which Aristotle contrasted to
the tyranny of the majority characteristic of demagogic democracy) as
mandating something like Leninist democratic centralism, wherein the
elected form a sort of elective dictatorship. Moreover, it is not always
desirable to have elected leaders completely isolated from the legitimate
interests of their constituents.
> As to your concern that this system might descend into fascism, again my
> personal experience does not suggest this is a danger. Personal power and
> the Baha'i consultative system are incompatible - where someone tries to
> operate by exercise of personal power (eg shouting down others - using
> personal connections, insisting every one else follow their view etc) the
> system seems to come to a grinding halt - disunity develops - people become
> dispirited and so forth - there develops in fact a situation where there is
> no effective power to exercise. It is only when individuals give up
> attachment to their personal will (which is probably the essence of a
> fascist mentality) that the system fires up and is successful. This seems
> to be an inbuilt feedback mechanism - the Assemblies are spiritual
> institutions - however their proper functioning depends on the individuals
> behaving in a spiritual manner in the Assembly context - people are sooner
> or later forced to do so if they wish to be happy in their service on an
> Assembly. It is about as far from facism as you will ever get.
I am sure this is true, again, in most local communities, where very
frequently Baha'i assemblies function in the spirit of the old "town
meeting" democratic ethos. My problem is that I think the dangers of
authoritarianism and the quashing of individual rights in the interest of
the Institutions is much more likely to arise in large communities that
have lost that face-to-face Gemeinschaft ("community") and moved to an
anonymous Gesellschaft ("society"). It is not the case that individual
ego is the only problem. There can be such a thing as corporate ego.
There can be an assemblage of nine individuals who together have a
perceived interest that causes them to act in a dictatorial way. There
are *no* checks in the Baha'i system on such abuses. The House has
increasingly shown itself unwilling to intervene in "national" affairs.
> Why could two Baha'is (i.e. yourself and myself - have come to such
> radically different views on this issue) - perhaps this difference arises
> from our personal experiences of the Baha'i institutions and therefore
> reflects particular regional and individual practices rather than
> justifying universal conclusions about the system. Perhaps the only way to
> resolve such an issue would be empirical study of the way the system
> operates in a wide variety of contexts - not just one part of the world -
> we are after all a global faith.
Obviously, community functioning in illiterate village India is far
different from that in the U.S. But let us speak of the potentialities
of Western societies with high rates of literacy and relative abundance
of resources. The current Baha'i system disallows or highly discourages
indpendent Baha'i journalism; insists on subjecting the writing of all
Baha'i intellectuals to prepublication censorship; limits open
information at a variety of levels; esconces lifetime incumbents in
powerful, unmonitored positions of authority, and so on and so forth.
All of these features of the system are disturbing to me and to many
other thinking people, Baha'i or not. I would argue that they are not
essential and necessary features of the Faith, but historical accidents
and contingencies that can and ought to be changed. I want to see the
Baha'i Faith reformed, so as to be true to its own essence.
> Regards
>
> Michael Curtotti
>
> (curtotti@ozemail.com.au)
And warmest regards to you - Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Journalism, Checks, Elections
To: jrcole@umich.edu (Juan R Cole)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 95 12:54:11 EST
Cc: curtotti@ozemail.com.au, talisman@indiana.edu
I suddenly wish I had everything Juan has ever said on these
issues, even if redundant. I confess to both hope and despair over the
possibility of reform.
Hope that Juan's reading of the foundational texts is valid,
hope that a fresh look at these texts might provide the basis for a
legitimate discussion of change.
But despair that neither the Baha'i *mass* (if indeed there is no
journalistic fora or *public*) nor the Administration will be interested in
pursuing a discussion along this lines.
Notwithstanding, it seems to me there there are elements in Juan's
critique of both *wisdom knowledge* and scholarship, both of which ought to
characterize the contributions of the *Learned in Baha'*, whoever they are.
On the basis of his study of political termininology current in
the Middle East, I am persuaded that Juan's findings are sound and fairly
characterize Baha'u'llah's and the Master's views of ideal statecraft.
The question is raises in my mind is this: Should the Baha'i
administration endeavor to incorporate all of Baha'u'llah's and
`Abdu'l-Baha's principles of statecraft? At least at some future date?
If so, what are some of the immediate implications? To me, they
are as follows:
A Free Press: I wish Stephen Lambden (who is in Montreal at this
moment visiting Todd Lawson) would be so kind as to post Baha'u'llah's
*Tablet to the [London] Times*.
But at least we have the Guardian's views on a free press: *The
press will, under such a system, while giving full scope to the expression
of the diversified views of mankind, cease to be mischievously manipulated
by vested interests, whether private or public, and will be liberated from
the influence of contending governments and peoples* (WOB 204).
Do we have a free press? No. We had *Dialogue*. It was, for all
intents and purposes, rendered unviable. Should we have a free press?
According to Baha'u'llah, yes. According to the Guardian, yes. Is it okay
to talk about a free press? I hope so. Is it loyal to the Covenant to push
for a free press? This question could be turned on itself: Could it not be a
dereliction of conscience not to?
Baha'i Courts: The Guardian wrote: *A world tribunal will
adjudicate and deliver its compulsory and final verdict in all and any
disputes that may arise between the various elements constituting this
universal system* (WOB 203). Is the Baha'i Administration the *pattern for
future society*? If so, where is our tribunal, our Baha'i courts, and the
enabling legislation?
Elections: I have already alluded to the problem of what the
Guardian terms *vested interests* interfering with the functioning of a
free press. Clearly, the Administration is a vested interest. The same is
true with respect to *any and all disputes* that may arise in a Baha'i
system. Where, then, is there recourse to independent adjudication?
Electorally, I don't know how reform should proceed. I dare not
say anything for fear of being charged with negative electioneering or
something else I have never even heard of. So how can electoral reform
take place, when a Baha'i's reputation might be ruined for making a modest
proposal?
I see no contradiction between my support of Juan's agenda for
reform, and my commitment to evolving our Baha'i Administration. Since
there is no Baha'i free press to express these views, and no Baha'i court
to intervene if the Administration (or members acting independently on its
behalf) crushes such expression, I can only hope that the Universal House
of Justice will invite Juan to consult with it on such matters, or that
Juan will publish his book soon.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 13:10:00 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Spheres of Conferred Infallibility
It seems to me quite clear that the spheres of the Guardian's authority and
infallibility are not identical. First of all, in the letters that are now
familiar to all--but which can be reposted, if Juan will be so kind, the
Guardian very strictly limits the areas of his infallibility to
interpretation of the text and protection of the Cause. And even here
infallibility seems to mean only that he must be strictly obeyed by the
believers.
Secondly, the Guardian very often adopted policies and procedures for the
community which he says very explicitly are only provisional and will have to
be reviewed by the House of Justice in the future. Here, Shoghi Effendi was
acting with the authority of the Head of the Faith to make policy, but
claiming no infallibility as a legislator--the province of the House.
You know, beyond disagreing on the precise limits of the infallibility of
the Center of the Faith, I am not even sure we have come to any consensus on
what the word infallibility means. As we have discussed, the Arabic implies
purity, sinlessness, moral rectitude, etc. and not freedom from error.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 13:26:11 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: American Bahai/Consultation
Well, I was going to say something on this theme, but Terry's post has just
left me speechless.
It was a brilliant analysis, Terry! And I think that I better keep my
mouth shut until I can digest it.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 13:41:55 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Scholarship, administrative reforms
At the risk of reigniting the "lay Baha'i" fracas, it seems to me that
there is simply a confusion of terms here. We are dealing with two
notions of what "learned in Baha" might mean: (1) those with expert
knowledge, and (2) those with wisdom--or at least who are supposed to
have wisdom. (1) would include academic experts on Baha'i history,
theology, and subjects related to the Faith. Group (2) would include the
"institution of the learned" but for my purposes purposes includes
members of Baha'i elected institutions; i.e., NSA members are supposed to
be wise but not necessarily learned.
a) The two classes might overlap but obviously are not identical.
b) What they know is different: (1) history and theology, and (2)
how problems ought to be solved.
c) Obviously the knowledge that is the stock-in-trade of group
(1) might sometimes by useful to group (2), but is not identical with
what group (2) is supposed to know.
d) Since wisdom is harder to document than academic knowledge,
there is a higher probably that the certified experts will have expert
knowledge than that the ones who are supposed to be wise will actually be
wise.
e) The problems come when one group's learning makes them claim
authority over the learning of another. This is why Baha'i academics get
grumpy when they are told what they ought to think about--say--history,
and why NSAs and the House are aggravated by second-guessing by
academics. (It is also why congresses, legislatures, and parliaments are
staffed by politicians rather than political scientists, but that is
another topic.)
Electoral reform: A very simple reform would be to require absolute
majorities. Thus, if a member of an NSA gets 80 out of 170 votes cast,
there should be another vote. A more radical measure would be to
disqualify an incumbent from reelection if he does not get an absolute
majority on the first ballot. I don't see any scriptural objections to
such measures--after all, assembly officers must get an absolute
majority, and there is no compelling reason why an incumbent who does not
get an absolute majority should nonetheless be reelected, the majority of
the voters presumably having decided that he should not be reelected.
There are other variations that would encourage turnover. Someone
suggested a two-round vote, with the top 18 vote-getters being eligible
for the second round.
I have pointed out before that there is another danger to the current
Baha'i electoral system. Elections are vulnerable to a cohesive
minority. Let us suppose that there was an issue that a minority of
Baha'is felt very strongly about--prohibiting abortion, let us say.
Those individuals would be likely to vote for those who were the
recognized leaders of their cause. In the US an NSA vacancy may be
filled by someone receiving 10% or less of the votes cast. (In the US,
about 250 people typically receives votes for the NSA, with about 2/3 of
the votes going to incumbents and most of the rest of people receiving 1
to 3 votes each and a handful getting up to ten to twenty votes.) I
suspect that the same is true at the level of district conventions.
Thus, you would start with about 35 anti-abortion delegates elected
randomly, with their numbers increasing from year to year as vacancies
happened to occur for district delegates. (In the US, at least, district
delegates are almost always reelected if they are still eligible.) In
such a case, this well defined dissident minority would tend to gradually
become overrepresented at national convention and would tend to fill all
the NSA vacancies, even if they were strongly disapproved of by the
majority. Thirty-five votes divided randomly among two or even three
obvious candidates is quite enough to get someone elected to a vacant NSA
seat.
The dangers are obvious.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: 31 Dec 95 14:27:06 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Talisman Mysticism Conference Update
Dear Talismanians,
Tomorrow Bosch Baha'i School's prices will rise for their weekend
sessions. If you have not yet registered for the Talisman Mysticism
Conference, you can still call Bosch (408-423-3387) and register over
the phone today at the lower price.
On our presentor's conference call last week, we started formulating the
agenda for the conference, and a feeling of amazement and wonder set in
as we did so. We realized that this conference could potentially
constitute a spiritual Badasht, where Baha'is might start rediscovering
and then rededicating themselves to the mystical heart of the teachings.
I would urge you to make plans to attend if you can.
Love,
David
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:17:58 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Talisman
Subject: Sanctification of the profane
In the light of the recent postings by Chris Buck, on the Prophet's
elevation of literature from His culture by quoting it, and the Guardian's
elevation of Gibbon -- in the same light, at the time that Muhammad rose,
wasn't "Allah" the name of the chief idol in the Kaaba? And Muhammad
retained the name, using it for the Deity?
This is a cause for many Christians to discredit Islam, saying that
"Allah" means not the one true God, but an Arabic deity. Question: In
Arabic translations of the Bible, say, those published by Nelson, what Arabic
word do they use for "God"? Do they ever use "Allah"?
Please clarify some history for me. Thanks
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:47:34 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Talisman
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Central to Juan Cole's views on the greater democratization of Baha'i
Administration, is application to the institutions of the Baha'i
Administration of the governmental principles set forth by the Master in
"Secret of Divine Civilization." I'd like to discuss that.
The only context I have found where Shoghi Effendi quotes from that Book
in his own writings, is in his reference in WOB to the Lesser Peace, where
he refers to the actions of secular governments. This passage is also
quoted by the House in The Promise of World Peace, and refers to the
enactment of a single code of international law, reduction of armaments,
fixing of national frontiers, etc. The Guardian refers to this Book, I
believe in GPB, as the Master's great contribution to the future
organization of the world.
My questions to the community here are:
1. Is there support for the view that the Master intended application of
this Text to the modification of the Institutions which He Himself
ordained in His Will?
2. Is there support for the view that He intended to limit application of
this Text - The Secret of Divine Civilization - to the reformation of the
world's secular institutions?
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 95 14:57:37 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: truth and unity
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Like Tony, I too was stunned by Terry's postings today. Really, Terry, you
must write these ideas so that they can be available to the larger community.
Of course, where to publish them? This is the problem.
I must say that I felt a strong revulsion to the statement that unity is more
important than truth. I was reminded of Ba'athist ideology that also glorified
unity above everything else. Well, the prisons of the Ba'athist regimes of
Iraq and Syria are full of people who could not bring themselves to see the
world as defined by their leadership. Jeopardizing "unity" has been used as
justification for the most monstrous deeds towards human beings imaginable.
While I am not equating Baha'i thought with Ba'athist ideology, I can see where
human beings can take an idea and be carry it to its extremes.
I fear that one of the ideas that has been taken to the extreme is that Baha'is
should not question the administrative bodies. While I agree that a
curmudgeonly approach whereby everything is automatically dismissed as a dumb
or wrongheaded idea is hardly in keeping with the positive attitude encouraged
in the Faith, I see us in serious trouble if we do not have an open forum for
analyzing problems and suggesting remedies.
Being on TAlisman has made me more aware than ever of the enormous talent and
intellectual capacity found in the Baha'i community. Why should we keep all
this to ourselves? Why can't there be a magazine or newspaper that allows
these ideas to appear in print? Why should we fear constructive criticism of
policies and programs? In fact, shouldn't we be terrified that we don't have
such a forum? In every case I know of where censorship has occurred, there has
been disastrous results. Censorship takes many forms. It is not just limiting
the publication of books. It also occurs in our everyday lives where we fear
speaking our minds because we might be made to look like trouble makers or
"covenant breakers." The history of the twentieth century should have taught
us some simple basic lessons. This has been a century of despostism based on
grand ideologies. We need to live Baha'u'llah's teachings without transforming
them into a dogmatic ideology. Linda
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:55:46 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: curtotti@ozemail.com.au, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Juan Cole wrote:
[...]
> Since policy
> decisions are on the whole not reported to the community, few Baha'is
> have any idea of what their NSA has actually done the previous year...
In one community I lived in, Grass Valley CA, the LSA published a summary
of every LSA meeting in each monthly newsletter -- essentially the entire
minutes, absent confidential matters. This brought the entire community
closer to the LSA, and everybody felt more involved. The LSA otherwise
spent many many hours consulting, and nobody else in the community knew
what the LSA was up to, or participated as fully during Feast
consultation.
I think it would be helpful if the NSA published at least a summary of not
only the minutes of its non-confidential decisions at prior meetings, but
a summary of the agendas of its upcoming meetings; and posted these to the
NSA Bulletin Board, and in The American Baha'i.
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 13:16:45 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Member1700@aol.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Spheres of Conferred Infallibility
On Sun, 31 Dec 1995 Anthony Lee Member1700@aol.com wrote:
> It seems to me quite clear that the spheres of the Guardian's authority and
> infallibility are not identical. First of all, in the letters that are now
> familiar to all--but which can be reposted, if Juan will be so kind, the
> Guardian very strictly limits the areas of his infallibility to
> interpretation of the text and protection of the Cause. And even here
> infallibility seems to mean only that he must be strictly obeyed by the
> believers.
LIMITATIONS ON INFALLIBILITY
In the primary letter written on behalf of the Guardian mentioning areas
where he is not infallible (the expansive view of which I have
tongue-in-cheek referred to as "The Most Great 'etc.'") it is stated that
he is not infallible in matters of economics. I think it is precisely
because, as he elsewhere stated, there are no technical economic teachings
in the Baha'i Writings. That is, neither Baha'u'llah nor the Master gave
the Guardian Texts to interpret on the subject. Had They chosen to do so,
we would have infallible interpretation and application by the Guardian on
economic matters. I feel that his fallibility in economics derives from a
lack of Revelation on the subject, and is not inherent in the subject
itself.
PROVISIONAL ENACTMENTS
> Secondly, the Guardian very often adopted policies and procedures for the
> community which he says very explicitly are only provisional and will have to
> be reviewed by the House of Justice in the future. Here, Shoghi Effendi was
> acting with the authority of the Head of the Faith to make policy, but
> claiming no infallibility as a legislator--the province of the House.
I know of one such example: The Guardian's decision that pending the
election of the House of Justice, the age of people eligible for election
to LSA's is set at 21. He specifically made this provisional on review by
the House. Do you know of others?
THE FUTURE
> You know, beyond disagreing on the precise limits of the infallibility of
> the Center of the Faith, I am not even sure we have come to any consensus on
> what the word infallibility means. As we have discussed, the Arabic implies
> purity, sinlessness, moral rectitude, etc. and not freedom from error.
One of the areas we have previously discussed, is the fallibility of the
Guardian in predicting the future. For example, on p. 76 of "Advent of
Divine Justice," referring to the impact on the American government of the
chaos in the world, he wrote (in 1938), "Out of it [the world shaking
ordeal] it [America] will probably emerge, unlike its reactions to the
********
last world conflict, consciously determined to seize its opportunity, to
bring the full weight of its influence to bear upon the gigantic problems
that such an ordeal must leave in its wake, and to exorcise [war] forever
..."
The conditional word "probably" indicates that the Guardian could not with
certainty state whether America would awaken to its destiny sooner, or
later. On that same page he refers to "the most likely developments" in
the future. Here Shoghi Effendi is reading the "signs of the times" and
applying the Writings to them, where he is indicating the probabilities of
the future. My own feeling is that even if I take the most limited scope
of infallibility - moral purity - I feel confident that nobody had a
clearer view of the future than the Guardian. The combination of his
unerring understanding of the Texts and the implications of the Texts
invisible to the general reader, with his application of these to the
trends he saw in the world, provided him with a vision of the future that
I feel is unparalleled in clarity.
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 13:47:53 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Talisman
Cc: Ahang Rabbani
Subject: Destiny of America
I may have misunderstood Ahang Rabbani's challenging question, but my
impression is that he said that the American/Canadian Baha'i community's
unique role ended with the World Crusade in 1963.
I see that in the last 5 pages of The Advent of Divine Justice the
Guardian wrote (in 1938) about the future trend of America's involvement
in the world. He refers (p. 76) to "its further evolution ... that cannot
at present be visualized..." and that this evolution will continue until
America plays an "active and decisive part" as "an outstanding member, and
component part, of a federated world." The Guardian then states that
"Then, and only then, will the American nation, while the community of the
American believers within its heart is consummating its divinely-appointed
mission, be able to fulfill the unspeakably glorious destiny ordained for
it by the Almighty ..." So, the consummation of the mission of the
American Baha'i community still lies in the future, as does the federation
of the world.
In a letter dated June 5, 1947, the Guardian states that this coincidence
of the destinies of the American nation as a whole, and the destiny of
the American Baha'i community is "destined to culminate, in the fullness
of time, in a single glorious consummation." (Citadel of Faith p. 32)
In that same letter, the Guardian states that the end of *the first epoch*
in the evolution of the mission of the American Baha'i community will
occur in the year 1335 prophecied by Daniel, elsewhere explained by him to
be the year 1963. Thereafter, he writes, this mission will be consummated
"in the Golden Age." (COF 32)
Now I'm looking through the Guardian's writings for references to
troublemaker expatriate Persians who come to America's hallowed shores...!
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 95 21:09:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Tahirih
I too am delighted that some of Tahirih's poetry will be published in
translation. I've been interested a long time, particularly since hearing
one poem set to music on Irandocht Enayati's "Naghmeha II" (not speaking
Farsi I didn't get much out of it except its intensity, although since it
starts out "Ya Baha'u'llah" I have a vague idea as to the theme).
Regarding the "last words": I found them in _God Passes By_ on p.75 but
as yet am unable to find them in anything by 'Abdu'l-Baha (not that I've
exhausted all the possibilities yet). Anybody know a source? Shoghi Effendi
quoted her words without attribution, so no help there.
Thanx, Leigh
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 95 22:30:10 MEZ-1
From: Noorbakhsh Monzavi
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: truth and unity
Just a humble remark about "truth and unity" (written by Linda):
The point which is made in "truth and unity" is of great importance and
value, however
>Why should we fear constructive criticism of policies and programs?
because, "constructive criticism is destructive".
"Constructive Criticism is Destructive" is the name of an article by
Dr. Hossein Danesh.
He argues that you can not build upon "negative" (which happens in the world
around us every day: discouraging) in order to improve something.
One should rather build upon "positive" (Bah 'i' attitude: encouraging).
with regards,
Noorbakhsh.
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
To: gpoirier@acca.nmsu.edu ([G. Brent Poirier])
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 14:40:36 MST
Cc: jrcole@umich.edu, curtotti@ozemail.com.au, talisman@indiana.edu
On the last day of 1995, Brent wrote:
>
> I think it would be helpful if the NSA published at least a summary of not
> only the minutes of its non-confidential decisions at prior meetings, but
> a summary of the agendas of its upcoming meetings; and posted these to the
> NSA Bulletin Board, and in The American Baha'i.
>
The Canadian NSA has quite regularly published its decisions in our national
news bulletin, "Canadian Baha'i News", and I feel that many of the friends
have found it very helpful. By doing this, at least some discourse has been
generated in the community. I do not know how consistent the publishing of
this information is--it seems that this has only started within the last
few years.
Loving regards,
stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 13:56:28 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: banani@ucla.edu (Amin Banani)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Photos of Talisman folk
Dear Kathy (and Talismanians),
I really think this is a great idea and I would love to see the results,
but I'm too shy to send in one (besides, I'm not legitimately a Talismanian
now). love, Sheila
>Ladies
>Wanna be in the movies???
>kk
>:-}}
>
>---------------------
>Forwarded message:
>From: caryer@microsoft.com (Cary E. Reinstein)
>Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
>To: dawnliqu@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu (QUANTA DAWNLIGHT),
>gpoirier@acca.nmsu.edu
>([G. Brent Poirier])
>CC: talisman@indiana.edu (Talisman)
>Date: 95-12-30 22:39:52 EST
>
>A very cool idea indeed! I think I'll send before and after pictures of
>myself. One taken a couple of months ago and one to be taken in about a year
>.
>
>If any Talismanian needs to have their photo digitized, I can do that for
>you. Write me offline only and I'll send you my snailmail address and
>details. No charge, of course.
>
>Regards,
>
>Hannah
>----------
>From: [G. Brent Poirier][SMTP:gpoirier@acca.nmsu.edu]
>Sent: Friday, 29 December, 1995 20:46 PM
>To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
>Cc: Talisman
>Subject: Photos of Talisman folk
>
>A reminder that Quanta has offered to put photos of the folks here, on
>the WWW. Send em in to her at:
>
> Quanta Dawnlight
>> 809 Tower Street
>> Raleigh, N.C. 27607-7364
Sheila Banani
2320 Alta Avenue, Santa Monica, California 90402
Tel (310) 394-5449
Fax (310) 394-6167
E-Mail: Banani@UCLA.Edu (Sheila)
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 17:02:20 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Allah
As far as I know, "Allah" is the normal name for God for Arabic-speaking
Christians, modern and medieval. There is a slightly different range of
related terms for God than Muslims use--"al-Ab", the Father, etc.--but it
is essentially the same vocabulary as is used by Muslims. "Allah" is
obviously related to the Semitic "El," which is one of the names used for
God in the Bible. "Allah" or its variant "al-Ilah" seems to have been
used by pre-Islamic Arabic Christians. I don't believe that there is any
evidence that there was an idol of Allah in the Kaaba prior to Islam.
What you are hearing is Christian ignorance, feeding on the ignorance of
Muslims who think that "Allah" is a name exclusive to Islam.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 14:30:26 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Re: Sanctification of the profane
Brent--
Yes, the word "Allah" is used for God in the Arabic translations of the New
Testament, as well as "rabb" (Lord). It might be pointed out to the
Christain fundamentalists that YHWH (Jehovah) was just as much a tribal
god for the Hebrews during & subsequent to the time of Moses as Allah was
for the Arab's in the pre-Islamic Jahilliyah period.
Nima
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
"In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 16:29:10 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: jwalbrid
Cc: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: The Satanic Verse (Re: Allah)
John--
Doesn't the so-called expurgated "satanic verse" of the Quran provide some
evidence for the possibility that there could have been an idol (taqut?) of
the chief deity in the Ka'aba during the Jahilliyyah period?
Nima
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
"In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: talisman
Subject: Sweetness in Seattle: Filters
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:46:23 -0800
A few thoughts about Internet mail:
I don't know the technical details regarding how the recent email blitz
occurred. However, I'd like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that
email across the Internet is not secure. Repeat: NOT secure. Although
companies like Netscape and Microsoft are bringing out secure commercial
servers, in most areas of Internet traffic almost anything can be
intercepted, forged, relayed, interrupted, or corrupted. If you have
absolutely private things to say to someone over email, use digital
signatures and PGP encryption or a secure server such as a Microsoft
Exchange server running Windows NT or similar. Otherwise, expect glitches
like Faust, trolls from outside the list, and some eavesdropping. That's the
nature of the Internet at this time.
I find the Talisman list to be very educational. It constantly stimulates me
to think and re-think, and to go to the books and check references. The
Talisman standard of scholarship is generally far above that of other Baha'i
lists that I've seen such as the boring and repetitive usenet list and the
acrimonious techie list ("bashers-r-us" I call that one).
I had the good fortune of seeing a message about Faust before my Talisman
folder became stuffed and quickly set a filter to delete anything containing
"faust" in the From field. Thus, I never saw them. If you're lucky enough to
be using an email program that enables you to filter email, put that feature
to good use. As an example of use, most Senders I must filter to a very low
priority folder because my email reading time is limited. I filter a couple
of senders to the Deleted folder <>, and some to a higher priority folder called Talisman_Favorites. For
example, Juan Cole, Robert Stockman, Linda Walbridge, Mark Foster, Rich
Schaut, Dan Orey, and a few others that I usually find very engrossing go in
that folder. I receive about 300 emails a day at work and that doesn't even
include the Talisman stuff so I have to be selective. Filters also enable
you to sort incoming email by subject line. For example, if you think you've
seen one too many articles on any particular thread and you're just certain
that nothing new can be added to it, you can delete future messages
automatically. I recommend this feature highly.
==Hannah's sig line of the day=========
Q. Why did God create man before creating woman?
A: Always, in order to create an outstanding work, you make a rough draft
first.
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 95 16:51 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Photos of Talisman folk
>I really think this is a great idea and I would love to see the results,
>but I'm too shy to send in one (besides, I'm not legitimately a Talismanian
>now). love, Sheila
Burl says: there is a hot photo of Sheila in Eunice Brown's book about
the Universal House of Justice. She has cut her hair since the days of the
photo, but she is still "a looker!".
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 17:50:42 -0700
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: rephrasing an innocent question re. the Guardian and Gibbon.
I have often observed, when in the presence of certain learned
Baha'is, that a simple question asked by a curious lay (that is to say "of
no recognized status or expertise") Baha'i, has prompted a discussion of
peripheral issues among the learned while both the question and the
questioner have been ignored. I think this phenomena may be as much of a
factor in the percieved schism between the laity and the learned as the
frequenly alledged anti-intellectualism of the former. For example . . .
My reasons for asking, in my post on Dec. 29th, if one of the
historians or literary scholars on Talisman might shed more light upon the
influence of Gibbon on the writings of the Guardian, were not to stir up a
controversy, to raise doubts concerning the infallibiltiy of the later, to
prompt discussion of the perils of "source criticism of sacred texts", to
question the ethics of utilizing passages from previous writings without
attribution, or to reopen a "matter (which) had been settled on this list
some time ago". My reasons were rather personal, sentimental, benign, and
unabashedly unscholarly.
I was aware, when I made the request, that the Guardian had greatly
admired "The Decline and Fall", that Ruhiyyih Khanum, in the Priceless Pearl
(pg 38) stated that "It was his own pet bible of the English language . . .
", that he "revelled in him (Gibbon)", that "throughout Shogi Effendi's
writings the influence of (Gibbon's) style may clearly be seen", and that
he was never without a volume of Gibbon during the 25 years that she was
with him.
Because one of the favourite posessions of my grandfather, who was
also a very influential figure in my life although he never heard of
Baha'u'llah, was his copy of Gibbon's D&C, which he too "reveled in",
considered a bible of the English language, and kept a volume of with him at
all times, this tidbit of information made me feel a little closer to
Shogi Effendi. I remember the old man telling my brother's and I on one
occasion; "If you want to learn to write well, read Gibbon; you might even
learn a little history." I never did get past the first volume, and a few
pages of volume 3 concerning the life and death of Boethius. Since I have
recently been given my grandfather's cherished volumes of Gibbon, the
margins of which are liberally scribbled up with his own thoughts,
interpretations, references etc. which are of as much interest to me as the
actual text, and in light of the fact that the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith
and last authorative interpreter of the Word of God held this work in such
high esteem, I assigned myself the pleasant task of undertaking a leisurely
and close reading of the D&C, with the understanding that subsequent
scholarship has revealed errors in Gibbon's history, that he himself was not
infallible and that it would be foolish to suggest that Shoghi Effendi's
interpretation of Pre-Babi or Early Christian history was moulded by
Gibbon's interpretations even though there are specific instances where both
interpretations concur.
It then occured to me that there may be someone on Talisman who
might be able to direct me to some of the Guardian's favourite passages or
instances where there are similarities not only in style but in content,
between the Guardian's writings and Gibbon's. So in my Dec. 29th post I
asked that question.
First, Christopher Buck kindly pointed out one such concurrance and
I apprebyated that although I do not agree with Chris's wording that -
"An example of this is Shoghi Effendi's dependence on Chapter 15 of
Gibbon's *Decline and Fall* for the paragraph on Jewish Christianity on p.
57 of *The World Order of Baha'u'llah*." I would suggest that the
Guardian's choice of words in this paragraph is a partial validation of,
rather than a dependence upon, Gibbon's interpretation.
Having pointed out this one example, which was the type of thing I
was looking for, Dr. Buck then stated, among other things, that . . .
1. What fell into focus for me was that Gibbon was more than a model of
eloquence for the Guardian. Gibbon was also a source for the Guardian's
thought on certain matters. I dared look no further.
2. (I had simply taken a statement from the Guardian in which he states
that the Guardian is not an infallible authority on such subjects as
science, economics, etc., and then I simply glossed *etc.* to include
pre-Babi religious history.)
3. I think those two findings got me into some hot water, so I jumped out
of the frying pan.
4. I have not even dared to compare Gibbon and the Guardian since, since I
got the message that this line of inquiry would be unfruitful.
5. Ever since, I have taken to heart BWC archivist David Piff's advice that
Baha'i scholars (or whoever) should never sow the seeds of doubt among the
believers.
6. Which all goes to show that a comparison of Gibbon and the Guardian is
fascinating, but could only be pursued privately to avoid imperiling one's
fragile standing in the eyes of fellow and sister Baha'is.
Then K. Paul Johnston posted an interesting and thoughtful response to Chris
in which he made the following comments:
1. Doubt is not inherently evil;
2. Mr. Piff's advice sounds to me like the spiritual equivalent of the
Brezhnev doctrine.
3. What is the difference between sowing the seeds of reflection and
analysis, and sowing seeds of doubt?
4. A principle I have taken very much to heart is enunciated by
Francis Bacon: "If a man will begin with certainties, he will
end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts,
he will end in certainties."
Chris then responded with: "What I think David Piff . . . meant was not the
suppression of truth, but the responsible expression of it. Call it a
*morality of knowledge*, if you will" and he expounded at some length on
the theme of "unitive exercise of speech",
This is all good and interesting stuff but rather left me wondering
what happened to my question.
Of the 12 postings dealing with Gibbon and the Guardian only the
first of Chris's came close to addressing the question that I'd asked.
Then Derek Cockshut, in an effort to invoke closure on this
discussion, wrote . . . "I thought the matter of the Guardian and Gibbon was
settled sometime ago on this list . I will repeat again what I posted then .
As a Baha'i Youth in the UK in the early 60's I was told to read in fact get
my own copy of Gibbon < I have two complete sets > and read the Guardian's
favourite historian and gain an understanding of some parts of His thinking
. Christopher found something by himself that I was given as an automatic
indeed normal understanding . The Guardian did use Gibbon the books were on
his bedside table , how much more do we need to know. The books you refer to
were not books but letters you do not give references sources in a letter."
As an individual of relatively inferior intellect but intense curiosity,
who has read only snippets of the D&C, I admire anyone who, as a Baha'i
youth, would peruse the entire work to gain a better understanding of the
Guardian's writings. I find it unfortunate that an individual with such a
fine mind and wealth of knowledge as Derek would not condescend to enlighten
someone for whom such knowledge is not "automatic, indeed normal
understanding." I adhere to the naieve belief that scholarship not only
involves the accumultation, critical analysis and synthesis of knowledge but
the ability and willingness to transmit that knowledge to others of lesser
capacity.
So now I will rephrase and restate my original question.
Can anybody on Talisman, direct me to any passages of Gibbon's
"Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" which were particular favourites of
the Guardian, or instances where there is a similarity, not only in style,
but in content, between the Guardian's writings and that of Gibbon?
Please respond to me personally rather than to the entire list. I
don't wish to ressurect a "delicate, or closed matter" or "sow the seeds of
doubt".
LBG's
Gord.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 95 17:33 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Almost forgot...
Almost forgot to wish you all a happy 1996, and may this 1996 be the best
1996 yet!
As for a photo of me for Talisman...anyone wise or affluent enough to buy
Man Overboard will discover that it comes complete with a delightful photo
of the author as an added bonus and inducement to purchase.
Also, those of you who have nagged me off-line -- yes, unplugged from
Talisman for two weeks I actually completed my latest novel so you can
anticipate the day when my tag line changes to plug the new book.
Happy Everything!
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 95 17:28 PST
To: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>Central to Juan Cole's views on the greater democratization of Baha'i
>Administration, is application to the institutions of the Baha'i
>Administration of the governmental principles set forth by the Master in
>"Secret of Divine Civilization." I'd like to discuss that.
>Me too. It is one of my favorites, I am currently re-reading it yet again,
and believe that much of what the UHJ has put forth in its plans and letters
harkens to this important book of the Master. For me, SDC belongs right
next to the Tablets of the Divine Plan and the W&T. I was going to post a
paragraph from it but having been out of touch with Talisman for a couple of
weeks, I figured someone already posted the relevant quote
(scholars,publishing, et).
BB
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 21:02:49 EST
Subject: unity
Dearest talismanians,
I was out of the scenes for awhile and missed the storm of faust.
How lucky! I have only two responses to the concept of unity
UNITY - (truth+detachment+democracy) ---> Totalitarianism
LOYALTY - (honesty+detachment+sacrifice)---> Corruption
I am only interested in concepts which can apply to different
circumstances at different times. Detached from individuals and
concern for issues enables one higher level of objectivity than vice
versa.
But, we must remember that each element has its own unique
"potentiation" (defined from chemistry) as well as "synergistic
effects" when combined with various elements under diverse conditions.
Although science has a table of elements the totality of potentiation
and synergistic effects are yet to
be discovered and is a most difficult, expensive and consuming
affair which the corporations needing approval from government
agencies avoid like a plague for this reason. In short, not
everything that FDA or EPA approves is a safe and sure thing.
Of course I am speaking of the tangible elements, just think how
difficult it is to determine the intangible ones, like human
thoughts, actions and feelings and result of their interactions.
I hope this is somewhat understandable or, those who do can explain
it further. My conclusion is that there is a difference between
evaluation and absolute judgment of people and events.
p.s. school is closed I am not working on my homepage project at this
time but will resume in about 2 weeks. I would appreciate feedbacks
if you are having trouble viewing the homepage. Thanks
HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!!! It has been a most interesting '95 for
Quanta. By the way it is in '95 that I changed my name to Quanta
Dawn-Light, so you can understand where I am coming from.
lovingly,
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: jrcole@umich.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: American Baha'i?
Date: 31 Dec 1995 19:16:27 GMT
> Where do we go from here, however?
The issues that you have raised are very important, I believe, not for their
specifics but for the underlying assumptions. I had been trying to put into
words a good response when Terry's posts came across, both the one under
'American Bahai/consultation' and 'Phillips ethical dilemma'. For me, tho'
they may not appear to speak to your concerns, they begin to answer why those
concerns will not be a problem.
One other thing I believe is that we are defining Baha'i administration in
terms of our experience with business and government which is largely based
on the exercise of power. As I have said before (perhaps only on
bahai-discuss) the institutions of the Baha'i administration are not defined
in terms of their power (as the U.S. Constitution defines the institutions of
American government) but in terms of their responsibilities. Any power or
authority that the institutions have is a function their respoonsibilities;
whereas in the secular world, the responsibilities seem to largely be a
function of their power.
As an extension of this idea, I see the function of the Baha'i administrative
institutions as not being administrators as we commonly think of them.
Rather I see their primary purpose to co-ordinate that actions and
initiatives of individuals under their purvey. If this is an accurate
statatement of the duties of the institutions, then it is not their
responsibility to initiate activities, and most, if not all, blame for the
problems of the Faith lies on the individual, not the Assemblies.
Back to your, and many other's, concerns about critiquing the Assembly's
actions. I think that the answer partially lies in discussions *prior* to
decision-making by the Assembly. There is far too little of this. Many
Assemblies probably do not know how to encourage such a discussion, and many
Assemblies are also administering community affairs in 'management by crisis'
form. they do not consider a problem until they must deal with it *now*.
Therefore, they do not have time to spend the time needed to consult with the
community before they make a decision. And in many cases never consult with
the community first.
All too aften, the administrative/consultative portion of Feast consists on
either the Chairman asking for suggestions/recommendations to the Assembly
and everyone looks blank, or one member of the community monopolizing the
time with a monologue of their opinions. Counselor Birkland has suggested
directed consultation to help encourage true consultation. A topic is
announced at Feast for consultation at the next Feast. A mini-compilation
may be passed out containing some suggested Writings that apply to the
subject. The community members are requested to consider the issue, discuss
it among themselves, and be prepared to offer ideas and suggestions at the
next Feast. If a concensus does not seem to be developing, the consultation
may be continued at the following Feast. Some communities have tried having
special community meetings for the discussion of an issue, using this same
general idea. This is not an easy policy to develop. The Assembly has to be
looking far enough ahead to forsee problems before they develop; a topic has
to be announced that is both specific and yet not too limiting to
consultation; someone has to find and collate relevant Writings. But
implementing such a policy insures input from the community and makes it
easier for members to accept decisions they either don't like or consider var
less than ideal.
Don C
- sent via an evaluation copy of BulkRate (unregistered).
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 20:39:44 -0600 (CST)
From: John Bromberek
Subject: Truth and Unity
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Oh my! Now what? I've misplaced my scorecard. I can't be
sure, but I have the feeling that those who a month or two ago
were arguing that "the Faith is less important than people," have
now taken up the cause of "Truth is more important (or, at least,
more fundamental) than Unity." It may not be an identity, but it
seems it is close to being true that:
The Faith = (almost/sort-of) Truth
and
People = (almost/sort-of) Unity
It may only be my mindset, but I would find it very difficult
to argue that Truth (while extremely important) could be more
important than Unity in this Faith. As has been suggested,
though, this can never be exactly a hierachical relationship;
since, if there were no truth here, unity would be quite evil--
though rather blatantly so. But, is anyone suggesting that there
is no truth in this Faith? I didn't think so.
We can never be sure what Truth is, and we certainly have no
control over it (let alone, the ability or right to impose it on
others), but we do have some understanding of what unity is, and
we have considerable control over it.
That sounded pretty dumb, so let me try a different tack:
Truth endures; if it goes away for a time, it always, eventually,
comes back. We don't have to be overly concerned with the fine
details of Truth because it can survive quite nicely without us--
it's wonderful to have, and it feels good when we discoverer any
aspect of it, but Truth doesn't need us. If Einstein hadn't
formulated his theories of Special and General Relativity
someone else would have, and probably at about the same time. If
we are keeping score, then Einstein gets the credit, while we all
get the benefit--but the credit is just an ego thing, it doesn't
affect the Truth which has been discovered.
There is a quote from `Abdu'l-Baha which often comes up when
the idea of unity and consultation is discussed:
Should ye attribute a mistake to a person, it will be
a cause of offense and grief to him - how much greater
would this be if it is attributed to a number of people!
How often it hath occurred that a slight difference hath
caused a great dissension and hath been made a reason
for division.
Economy of words usually dictates that we never see this
quotation in context. But it is only in context that we can
fully appreciate just how minor an instance `Abdu'l-Baha was
referring to at the time:
Regarding the blessed word, the Greatest Name: Its
writing or spelling is according to its pronunciation (i.e.,
it is spelled as it is pronounced) in the Persian language.
Baha is correct; Beha is incorrect. However this question
must not cause inharmony and grief among the friends. This
truth shall become manifest.
Should ye attribute a mistake to a person, it will be a
cause of offense and grief to him - how much greater would
this be if it is attributed to a number of people! How often
it hath occurred that a slight difference hath caused a great
dissension and hath been made a reason for division. Now, you
write Baha'u'llah [this spelling was later changed by Abdul-
Baha to Baha'o'llah, as an aid to more correct pronunciation],
but do not object to any person. All will eventually follow
the correct spelling.
O ye beloved ones of God! The manifestation of the Light
of Unity is for binding together the people of the world. If
this unity is not attained, the tree of life is made
fruitless, the heavenly bounty is not utilized. The blessed
blood (of the saints) was shed for bringing about unity and
harmony. These souls gave their lives as sacrifice in order
to produce the love that bindeth the hearts of all the people.
Therefore, ye should all spend your efforts in uniting and
reconciling (the people), so that the light of God's love may
permeate the universe.
The Spiritual Meeting of men (House of Spirituality) and
the Spiritual Meeting of women (Assembly of Teaching) in
Chicago are indeed endeavoring to serve. If they unite, as
they should, they will produce great results. Especially, if
the Spiritual Meetings of Chicago unite with those of New York
and become bound together, in a short while the fragrance of
the divine garden, which giveth life, will perfume all
regions.
[_Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas_, Vol. 1, pp. 20-22]
In His North American talks `Abdu'l-Baha returned to the theme
of religious strife time and again:
True religion is based upon love and agreement. Baha'u'llah
has said, "If religion and faith are the causes of enmity and
sedition, it is far better to be nonreligious, and the absence
of religion would be preferable; for we desire religion to be
the cause of amity and fellowship. If enmity and hatred
exist, irreligion is preferable." Therefore, the removal of
this dissension has been specialized in Baha'u'llah, for
religion is the divine remedy for human antagonism and
discord. But when we make the remedy the cause of the
disease, it would be better to do without the remedy.
[`Abdu'l-Baha: _Promulgation of Universal Peace*, page 232]
And among the teachings of Baha'u'llah is that religion
must be the cause of fellowship and love. If it becomes the
cause of estrangement then it is not needed, for religion is
like a remedy; if it aggravates the disease then it becomes
unnecessary.
[`Abdu'l-Baha: _Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha,
page 299)
Knowledge and Truth are their own reward. It's nice to share,
but frequently what we know (or merely think we know) is not
essential information when and where we want to share it.
Somehow this reminds me of Buckminster Fuller. Fuller, was an
inveterate free-thinker, visionary, and, also, no doubt, in many
respects, rather silly. But he was also a staunch and practical
believer in evolution--human, social, and, especially,
technological evolution. He knew that it didn't matter how good
or practical an idea is; every new idea, every innovation has a
required gestation period. He went so far as to make a detailed
study of just how long it takes for different types of innovations
to go from discovery or invention to practical application.
Different industries have distinctly differing gestation periods.
In contrast to such practical vision and patience, here we are
with the biggest sociological innovation to ever hit the human
race, virtually in our laps, and we are surprised that it takes
longer than we would like for it to be accepted, refined,
understood and implemented, even by the few of us who currently
have access to it.
It takes time.
The Truth may already be there (`The temple is already
built'), but few can perceive it, and we haven't the words to
explain nor the audience to hear of it.
Follow thou the way of thy Lord, and say not that which the
ears cannot bear to hear, for such speech is like luscious
food given to small children. However palatable, rare and
rich the food may be, it cannot be assimilated by the
digestive organs of a suckling child. Therefore unto every
one who hath a right, let his settled measure be given.
`Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor
can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor
can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the
capacity of those who hear it.' Such is the consummate wisdom
to be observed in thy pursuits. Be not oblivious thereof, if
thou wishest to be a man of action under all conditions.
First diagnose the disease and identify the malady, then
prescribe the remedy, for such is the perfect method of the
skilful physician.
[`Abdu'l-Baha: _Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha,
page 268-269)
The effects we can have on hastening the gestation process
through study, words and argumentation are minute compared to the
effects we can have through being an example of action, mutual
love, and unity of purpose.
If, as Ahang has suggested, it really is going to take another
six or seven hundred years (I find the thought depressing) to get
to the Golden Age of the Baha'i Faith--The Most Great Peace--
then, it is not necessarily presumptuous to suggest that we may
often be worrying too much about the wrong (or, at least for now,
inconsequential) things. If the Unification of Mankind is truly
the primary mission of Baha'u'llah, then Unity must be Job One.
And it is the one thing that *we* can do everything about.
There may be some among us who already have the entire plan of
this new world order worked out in their heads--if so, it's a
wonderful thing. But even if all of the details are absolutely
correct in one mind, it is likely that these details will be such
that even the most "deepened" of Baha'is will have trouble
digesting them at this time. There is no good reason that they
should be able to comprehend things that they will not have to
deal with in their lifetimes.
But everyone has some knowledge of how to increase the unity
in this world, here and now. Let's primarily work on those
things that are practical. We have a house that will take
hundreds of years to build. We are working on the foundation.
While it is a most pleasant diversion to occasionally go off and
carve out some of the ornamentation that may eventually be used
to frill up the windows, if the work on the foundation is
substandard, the ornaments aren't going to make a bit of
difference.
It is interesting to me that advice such as the following is
always the last thing we want to hear when we feel we have been
wronged:
"When criticism and harsh words arise within a Baha'i
community, there is no remedy except to put the past behind
one, and persuade all concerned to turn over a new leaf, and
for the sake of God and His Faith refrain from mentioning the
subjects which have led to misunderstanding and inharmony. The
more the friends argue back and forth and maintain, each side,
that their point of view is the right one, the worse the whole
situation becomes.
"When we see the condition the world is in today, we must
surely forget these utterly insignificant internal
disturbances, and rush, unitedly, to the rescue of humanity.
You should urge your fellow Baha'is to support you in a strong
effort to suppress every critical thought and every harsh
word, in order to let the spirit of Baha'u'llah flow into the
entire community, and unite it in His love and in His
service."
[Shoghi Effendi: _Directives from the Guardian_, pages 17-18]
This just doesn't go down well. But what else can the
Institutions say? We are all dreadfully inadequate to the tasks
we must perform, and we all make extremely serious, oftentimes
disastrous, and hurtful mistakes. Despite it all, we have no
alternative but to continue, and frequently the only way to
continue is to set aside the past.
Since you have turned to him for guidance, he will very
frankly give you his opinion.
He feels that the present inharmony prevailing amongst
you ... is very detrimental to the advancement of the Cause,
and can only lead to disruption and the chilling of the
interest of new believers. You ... should forget about your
personal grievances, and unite for the protection of the Faith
which he well knows you are all loyally devoted to and ready
to sacrifice for. Perhaps the greatest test Baha'is are ever
subjected to is from each other; but for the sake of the
Master they should be ever ready to overlook each other's
mistakes, apologize for harsh words they have uttered, forgive
and forget. He strongly recommends to you this course of
action. Also he feels that you and ... should not remain away
from the meetings and Feasts in ...; you have now got an
enthusiastic group of young Baha'is in ..., and you should
show them a strong example of Baha'i discipline and the unity
which can and must prevail amongst the Community of the Most
Great Name.
(From a letter dated 18 December 1945 written on behalf of
Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer)
[_Compilation of Compilations_, Volume 2, page 15]
Enough of this, though, I promise this will be my last sermon
for the year--I think I can hold to that.
No doubt we are mostly saying much the same things--different
parts of the elephant. Should anyone wish to argue...well, I take
it all back; I must have been mistaken. How could I have been so
stupid? Forgive me. [Actually, I'm just too lazy to argue. Chalk
it up to an undisciplined mind. There, you have my biography.]
Bye for now,
John Bromberek
Fayetteville, Arkansas
johnb@intellinet.com
=END=
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 16:00:41 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Scholarship, administrative reforms
Folks,
(1) John wrote that one expects wisdom from assembly members. I have
thought this too. We are asked to vote for assembly members on the basis
of five criteria (well trained mind, mature experience, unquestioned
loyalty etc). When getting down to it, though, consideration of these
criteria in relation to the candidates can be a pretty daunting task. At
one point I devised a pseudo-scientific rating system based on these
criteria. For instance , Joe Bloggs is (um) 5 out of ten for well trained
mind, and 8 out of ten for mature experience... and so on... I used it for
one or two elections and became an ardent advocate of it at a couple of
meetings... Clumsy, huh? Sure. So, in recent years I have been thinking
that these criteria, summarised, are about wisdom. Is Joe Bloggs wise, I
ask. Would I go to Joe for advice? Using either of these systems is
probably better than voting on the basis of car size or dental display
(2) I have ever been an advocate of a closer study of "Secret of Divine
Civilisation."
Robert...
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 19:16:23 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Re, Innocent question : Guardian and Gibbon .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians .
I noticed Gordon's restatement of his orginal question that I did not
receive . If Gordon felt that I had infered some incapacity on his part
with my posting I do applogise . I would never suggest a question is
unworthy of reply nor the questioner not one to be honored .
I am glad you have the bounty of a complete Gibbons . The recording of
history has moved on in the last 50 years , but for the time in which
Gibbons wrote his work it is a masterpiece . The work was first
published in 1776 and reflects the ideals of the Age of Reason . It is
still a model for modern historians in repect of objectivity .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:18:59 +0000 (MULTINET_TIMEZONE)
From: maeissin@ichange.com (Michael Eissinger)
Subject: Need help identifying some old "quotes"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I've been going through files that I acquired upon the death of my old
teacher, last year. It was common, in the early days of the Faith in
America, that materials were often typed and retyped with copies
circulated via the mails, as publishing was not that wide-spread.
Generally, most of the typewritten materials I've come across are
published somewhere, however I have several items which I haven't been
able to locate. Additionally, some of these items don't seem to "ring
true". They're either not from the Beloved Master, or they are horrible
translations of various tablets. If you have any information concerning
these old quotes, please let me know. I'm still going through old Star's
of the West, and haven't located these...
1) The following was included with a page of "graces", attributed to the
Master. Unlike the
others, this one is not attributed to anyone, and I can not locate it in
any of the old books.
Rejoice, for the heavenly table is spread for you;
Rejoice, for the angels of heaven are your assistants and helpers;
Rejoice, for the glance of the Blessed Beauty, Baha'u'llah is directed
toward you;
Rejoice, for the Glory of everlasting is destined for you;
Rejoice, for the life everlasting is for you.
2) The next "tablet" is attributed to the Master, with the following
introduction, I have
no date or other reference.
Intro: "The following was revealed for an European believer. It has come
to America
with the request not to spread it widely, but with great
wisdom and care.
Portion of a tablet explaining the inscription upon the
ring-stone"
The inscription is composed of two "Ba" and of four "Ha". The
explanation of "Ba" has
been written in the commentary upon "Bism'llah" errahman errahin": it is
very detailed
and is not suitable for this letter, you must refer to the commentary.
The repitition of the "Ba" refers to the Invisibility and to the
Presence (of God).
With regard to the four "Ha" which are the four columns of the Temple of
Unity
(Honwiyat; God & Nooonwiyat; his messenger likr Mohammad or Christ)
their perfect
number is ten -- for 1 plus 2 equals 3, 3 plus 3 equals 6, 6 plus 4
equals 10 and ten with
this significancation is found in the Koran where it is said "And we
have made it (or him)
perfect in the (figure) 10. Furthermore, "Ha" has the value of 5, and
there "Ha" is the
divine Essence and Reality that is clear and visible for the number 5
which is the
number of the Bab.
It is because of this that upon the stone of the Noble ring, the "Ba"
has been combined
with the "Ha" and in the same way the Greatest Name appears in this
inscription, for its
number is 9. If you multiply nine which is the number of Baha with that
of the Bab, which
is 5, that makes nine times five which is 45. And in the same way if you
multiply 5 which
is the number of the Bab with 9 which is the number of Baha, that makes
45, and this
number is equal to the number of Adam (alif equals 1, dal equals 4, mim
equals 40, the
entire sum 45). Similarly, if you add together (the units) of 9, that
makes 45; one plus two
equals 3, 3 plus 3 equals 6, 6 plus 4 equals 10, 10 plus 5 equals 15, 15
plus 6 equals 21, 21
plus 8 equals 36, 36 plus 9 equals 45. If now you add one plus 2 equals
3, 3 plus 3 equals
6, 6 plus 4 equals 10, 10 plus 5 equals 15, whih is equal to the number
of Eve, and is in
conformity with the Hadith "I and Ali, we are the Father and Mother of
this people"
(Hadith of Mohammad).
Adam signifies the over-flowing reality, istributive, active, which
represents the
appeaance of the Names and Qualities of God, the divine condition (or
station) whereas
Eve is the passive reality, taking, dependant, receptive, existing
trough the divine Names
and Realities. Briefly, such are the lowest of the Mysteries of the
compositions of the
Greatest Name upon the stone of the divine ring.
Observe also that the three planes (represented in the engraving upon of
the stone by
three horizontal lines) represent the world of God, the world of
Commandment and the
World of Creation which are the sources of the signs: The world of God
is the source of
Glorious Bounty, the World of Command is the pure and mysterious Mirror
which
depends upon the Sun of Truth, and the world of Creation is the source
of the
acquisition of light which is due to the Supreme Conjunction: to take
from got, to give to
the creatures.
Briefly, the true "Ba" which is the universal reality, once decended and
distributed into
the third degree from the supreme rank to the inferior centre, becomes
the collector
and the creator of all the worlds.
Upon the horizon of eternal glory two luminour stars have arisen
brilliantly; one to the
right and one the left. This supreme mystery is the two diagrams, placed
to the left and
to the right of the Greatest Name upon the stone of the noble ring; this
is the mystery of
the appearance of the Beauty of Abha (Baha'u'llah) and of the Supreme
Highness (the
Bab).
And though those two diagrams to the right and to the left have the form
of stars, they
also represent the body of man, with the head, the two arms and the two
legs; since this
diagram has five points.
Upon you be the Glory of Abha
[Signed] E. E. Abdu'l-Baha
3) Here's another one which I have questions about. This one is
titled...
"Prayer for the Confirmation of the American Government,
Revealed by 'Abdu'l-Baha Abbas, about 1900)."
It is either an earlier translation of the Prayer for America, or should
not be attributed
to 'Abdu'l-Baha.
O God;
O thou who art the confirmer of every just power and equitable empire in
eternal glory,
everlasting power, continuance, steadfastness, firmness and greatness;
strengthen by
the abundance of Thy mercy, every Government which sets rightly towards
it's subjects
and every dominion that protects the poor and week by its flag.
I ask Thee, by the abundance of Thy holiness and that of Thy Bounty, to
assist this just
Government which hath stretched out the ropse of its tent to far and
wide countries; the
justice of which hath manifested its proof throughout the
well-inhabited, cultivated and
flourishing regions belonging to such government.
O God; Strengthen its soldiers and flag, give authority and influence to
its word and
utterance, protect its territories and dominions, guard its reputation,
make its renown
widely spread, divulge its traces and exalt its flag by Thy conquering
power and
wonderful might in the kingdom of creation.
Thou art the confirmer of whomsoever thou willest. Verily Thou art the
Powerful and
the Almighty.
4) The next two "tablets" have been typed on the same page, with the
following heading...
"Sent in a letter my Mme. Khan from Paris 1919.
The year 1963 is the year meant. The Centenary of the Proclamation of
Baha'u'llah."
Haifa Palestine, January 10, 1919
To his honor Farazollah Zaki, el Curii
He is God!
O thou God-like and learned soul:
I have been informed of the contents of thy epistle, and have
supplicated the Lord to
pour on thee they mighty showers in His blessings to encompass these day
and night
with the bounties of His Kingdom, and to cause thee to become a sign of
guidance
among all men.
Thou art free in choosing to remain in those regions or travelling to
thy native land in
order to diffuse the Divine Fragrances and to intoxicate them with the
Wine of His
Beauty. This is the most important mission that is destined for thee, as
that blessed
region has been once honoured by the Presence of Him, who occupies the
Glorious
station, upon which was wafted the Breezes of the passionate Lord and
the learned
men and notable of which have been privileged to gaze at His manifest
Countenance.
As to thy question thou hast asked in connection with the versse in
Daniel's book,
namely; "Blessed is he who cometh to the thousand three hundred and five
and thirty
days"... this year should be taken as a solar year and not a lunar one,
for in accordance
with this calculation, one Century will have elapsed from the Rising of
the Son of Truth,
when the Teachings of God will have been established, when the Lights
will have
flooded all the regions in the East as well as in the West. And that day
will the believing
souls rejoice. Upon thee be Baha'o'llah El Abha.
[Signed] Abdu'l-Baha Abbas.
(the teacher was going to Kurdistan where Baha'u'llah was in retirement
in the
mountains)
Haifa, November 25, 1919
To His Honor Monsieur Andre
Upon him be Baha'o'llah El Abha.
He is God!
O thou pilgrim of the Tomb. Praise thou God, that thou went successfully
in travelling a
long distance until thou didst reach the abode of the Friend and take a
share and
portion from the bounties of his Higness and Desired One. Thou wert
indeed worthy of
this Gift and Favor for in Hamadan thou hadst engaged in the training of
young plants
in the Garden of Significancces. Now in order to seek peace and rest of
heart and soul
travel thou to the occident. Reach Paris and make search there for the
friends of God,
and show unto each an affection and kindness on behalf of 'Abdu'l-Baha,
and convey
unto them My loving greetings and say unto them "In all regions the
Voice of Ya Baha El
Abha is raised, and it is my hope that this soul-refreshing melody and
this voice of the
Kingdom may also be heard in Paris. Paris inspires (one) with enthusiasm
in all matters,
I beg God that the song and music of the Beloved of God may be so raised
loftily that it
may shake the limbs of Paris (with ecstacy).
I await very good news from the believers in Paris and it is certain
that in the future this
Divine Melody will be raised in that city. But I desire that this be
done in the Days of the
Covenant and Testament and that ye may become the minstrels of that song
and the
sweet-singing nightingales of that region".
Upon the be Baha'o'llah
[signed] 'Abdu'l-Baha Abbas
There are more, but this is getting long, and I'm tired of keying for
the moment, so I'll do the others later.
Michael Eissinger
Los Angeles
=END=
[end of 12/31/95 session]
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