Talisman Bahai Archives Dec. 21-23, 1995
Dec. 21-23, 1995
Talisman emails received 12/21/95
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From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Disconnected letters
To: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 1:45:25 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
I recall a few years ago, the Association for Baha'i Studies gave
its Award of Excellence in Baha'i Studies to a paper on the number 19 and
the Baha'i Faith (based on the study John mentioned).
This was a bad mistake. Not only was it an embarassing piece of
apologetics, but caused the Faith to be attacked in print in one or two
Muslim journals.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 02:02:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: icar@gmu.edu
Cc: peace@csf.colorado.edu, bahai-discuss@bcca.org, bahai-women@bcca.org,
talisman@indiana.edu, petrarolha@turing.unicamp.br, kclement@gmu.edu,
fblechma@gmu.edu, wwarfield@gmu.edu, mboland@gmu.edu, mlebaron@gmu.edu,
rrubenst@gmu.edu, bwien@gmu.edu, kdawson@gmu.edu, slindsey@gmu.edu,
dmunoz@gmu.edu, jkimble@gmu.edu, rkaufman@gmu.edu, cjohnnid@gmu.edu,
tbrenema@gmu.edu, lmarshall@gmu.edu, llee5@gmu.edu,
m-penn@fandm.acad.edu, searchcg@igc.apc.org, imtd@igc.apc.org,
mmagnani@zeus.csr.unibo.it, mgopin@gmu.edu,
psmoker@college.antioch.edu, ljgroff@dhvx20.csudh.edu,
ljohnst3@gmu.edu
Subject: SEE YOU NEXT YEAR!!
Dear friends near and far, i am off to the freezing land of Toronto on
Monday and will be gone for 3 weeks (until Jan 15). So, i would like to
take this opportunity to wish all of you A HAPPY HANNUKAH, A MERRY
CHRISTMAS, HAPPY HOLIDAYS, and A HAPPY NEW YEAR. May the years to come
bring you and your families joy, happiness, health and prosperity, and may
we finally realize the most noble gift of all PEACE ON EARTH.
Further down on the page after all the writing, please find a small
parting gift from me to you. Pass it on!!
Love,
Cheshmak
"...rise up in such wise, and with such qualities, as to endow the body
of this world with a living soul, and to bring this young child,
humanity, to the stage of adulthood. So far as ye are able, ignite a
candle of love in every meeting, and with tenderness rejoice and cheer ye
ever heart. Care for the stranger as for one of your own; should any come
to blows with you, seek to be friends with him; should any stab you to
the heart, be ye a healing salve unto his sores; should any taunt and
mock at you, meet him with love. Should any heap his blame upon you,
praise ye him; should he offer you a deadly poison, give him the choicest
honey in exchange; and should he threaten your life, grant him a remedy
that will heal him evermore. Should he be pain itself, be ye his
medecine; should he be thorns, be ye his roses and sweet herbs. PERCHANCE
SUCH WAYS AND WORDS FROM YOU WILL MAKE THIS DARKSOME WORLD TURN BRIGHT AT
LAST . . . "
___ ____ ___
____( \ .-' `-. / )____
(____ \_____ / (O O) \ _____/ ____)
(____ `-----( ) )-----' ____)
(____ _____________\ .____. /_____________ ____)
(______/ `-.____.-' \______)
*Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug*
*Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug*
*Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *hug*
*hug* *hug* *hug* *hug* *hug*
*Hug**Hug**Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug*
*Hug**Hug**Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug**Hug*
*Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug*
*Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug*
*Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug*
*Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug*
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 01:40:20 -0700
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: In defense of the laity and the learned.
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
I feel rather like the 98lb weakling of the old Ben Weider (or was
it Charles Atlas?) comic book adds stepping into the boxing ring with Mike
Tyson. I'm an intellectual light weight in this arena.
However, in view of the rather unkind comments directed at the
Baha'i laity, labelling us as wayward sheep enraptured by the charismatic
antics of trained bears; implying that we are the mindless puppets of Baha'i
Ayatollahs who masquerade as administrators, counsellors, auxillary board
members and the like; accusing us of showing contempt for the few truly
learned scholars in our midst I feel compelled to speak in defence of my own
kind.
I have no qualms about being refered to as a lay Baha'i or a lay
anything else. There is nothing demeaning about it. I am a layman and I
speak in laymen's terms. A layman, according to Webster, is merely a "person
without recognized status or expert knowledge, in contrast to a
professional". "Recognized" is the operative word here, and I have no
trouble recognizing and accepting the fact that anyone who has acquired a
Phd. in a particular field of study is of a higher recognized status and and
level of knowlege and expertise than I with respect to his/her chosen
profession. Of course this doesn't necessarily imply that he/she's wiser, or
more spiritual, likeable, hygenic, happily married, charismatic, clever,
skilled at chess, or handsome than I. Indeed, I know several Phd's who are
quite unwise, unspiritual, unlikeable, unhygenic, grotesque in appearance,
lousy at chess and constantly bickering with their spouse. Nevertheless I
respect the superiority of their knowledge in their chosen field. I only
suggest that they, when addressing an audience of Baha'i laity, as opposed
to an audience of scholars such as we have here on Talisman, acknowledge
their own superior expertise by adjusting their manner of discourse so that
it's suited to the capacity of those who are hearing it. Then perhaps, the
embarrassed tittering in the back rows might cease.
( Of course, this is only put forward tentatively and awaits the
imprimatur of our foremost living Baha'i Public Relations expert, Robert
Johnston. )
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: re: lay Baha`is
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 03:55:45 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Nima Hazimi wrote to Talisman@indiana.edu:
N >All Juan, Terry, John, Linda, myself and others are saying is let
N >the technicians to their craft (techne), and nothing more. Why this
N >should sound threatening or elitist to some is quite beyond me.
Nima -
You seem to be advocating a viewpoint which, in Juan's clarification
to me, he appeared to me to be saying that he did not accept.
However, do you think that Baha'u'llah, in using the term "learned,"
had in mind only, or even primarily, those who had acquired a certain
level of academic training? I would certainly never want to present
myself as more learned than others based on my academic credentials or
because I happen to have been fortunate enough to have been awarded a
Ph.D.
I think that it is significant that, with specific reference to the
formal institution of the learned (the Hands of the Cause, Counselors,
etc.), the designation "learned" is always given to someone by others.
While acquiring *learning* is a matter of individual volition, one
cannot become a formal member of the institution by simply stating that
one is.
In addition, not all members of this institution have academic
credentials either. Does that diminish their status? Shouldn't we be
using the term "learned" and "scholarship" in an inclusionary way and
avoid even giving the appearance that anyone is excluded? If someone
performs some service for the Faith, should that not be allowed to stand
on its own merits without compartalizing Baha'is by their degrees or
academic specializations?
Warm regards to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:04:56 +1300 (NZDT)
To: Juan R Cole , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: "Scholarship"
Talismanians,
John gave two, and now Juan has given three (or multitudinous) forms study
(not necessarily scholarship apparently) of the Faith.... I'd prefer to
stick with two for the moment -- the two that John gave -- (1) the
[Talismanic esp.] Middle Eastern Scholars [and associates, such as Terry,
..] and (2) the rest, with the crucial distinction
being that the second group conforms to the scholarly standards set by the
House. This was what John said. The "crucial distinction" is present in
Juan's letter also, though not so obviously. Juan wrote:
>Is there any real reason, however, that these three approaches to Baha'i
>studies cannot co-exist, flourish, and enrich each other? Why not
>authorize three language-games, or a hundred, if that many diverse
>communities of interpretation give rise to that many intellectual forms
>of life (Wittgenstein)? All three, after all, involve individual
>interpretation, nothing more. And we live in a world with no living
>Authorized Interpreter (Mubayyin), so we shall have to accept a diversity
>of views.
To state that Baha'i academic scholars -- or indeed Baha'i scholars
generally -- would wish to conform with Juan's notion of scholarship is to
be guilty of reifying an illusion. A joke in bad taste I think.
But, if I ever need to know Arabic for donkey or wolf or raven (or
whatever) I know where to go... You can be sure of that Nima.
Robert.
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 06:09:13 -0600 (CST)
From: John Bromberek
Subject: Re: Disconnected letters
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: John Bromberek
On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Christopher Buck wrote:
> I recall a few years ago, the Association for Baha'i Studies gave
> its Award of Excellence in Baha'i Studies to a paper on the number 19 and
> the Baha'i Faith (based on the study John mentioned).
>
> This was a bad mistake. Not only was it an embarassing piece of
> apologetics, but caused the Faith to be attacked in print in one or two
> Muslim journals.
>
> -- Christopher Buck
I was not aware that such a Baha'i paper was ever written, let alone
being awarded anything. Thank you for that. Yes, it is most unfortunate.
Do you recall the author, and where it was printed? There was a 1981
article in a South African magazine, _The Muslim Digest_, which appears
to be attacking Khalifa's theories as having been Baha'i-inspired.
However since John W's posting and yours are far more likely to have
been read than my original on the subject, I wish to emphasize these
did not address my question. I am well aware of all the things that
John W. stated, and can provide details if anyone is interested (though
I am not particularly, and so it would probably take me a while to
look it all up and get back to them).
My question was whether anyone knew what the Fifth Imam had said
about the disconnected letters and the timing of the the return of the
Qa'im. From the short blurb in Taherzaden's book, it appears that he
did not use all of the disconnected letters to arrive at the number
1260. I'm wondering which ones he did use, and how he used them, if
anybody knows.
Thanks,
John Bromberek
johnb@intellinet.com
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 07:32:53 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Translations
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Alex Tavangar asks about publishing Baha'i works outside of Baha'i
channels.
1) I could do so. In fact, a Baha'i book would be a pretty good bet for
an academic press. Baha'i scholarly books sell about three times as much
as regular academic books.
2) The same Baha'i review requirements still apply.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 16:05:04 IST
From: mansouri@bwc.org (Shohreh Mansouri)
To: talisman ,
"Baha'i Discuss"
Subject: Shetland Islands
Any Baha'is on these two lists
from the Shetland Islands?
IF yes;
will you please respond ASAP?
THANKS VERY MUCH;
Allah-u-Abha
Shohre
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 09:37:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: "Eric D. Pierce"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: (Blunt) Elites and Counter-Elites/ wasRe: Techne (re: lay Bahai)
On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Eric D. Pierce wrote:
>
> Of course we have heard the story of the raindrops and
> the dog again, and have been reminded for the millionth
> time of the moral decline of the educated religious
> classes at the time and in the land of the birth of the
> Faith, and their rejection of the Cause and subsequent
> nefarious role in the persecution of the Founders and
> Dawnbreakers.
Let's not forget the leading role played by `ulama and religious students
who converted to the Faith in the first generation. The Babi movement
started as movement within their ranks and was spread into other social
networks by them. If there's a lesson in this, I suppose that it is that
knowledge and learning are neutral, but people are not.
Richard
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 07:11:27 -0800
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: carmen@ucla.edu (Carmen Mathenge)
Subject: Re: Re-Intro and Ignorant Questions...
Dear Paul,
Welcome back! How fascinating to hear that you are the great grandson of
Peter Z. Easton! (For those who don't know, Peter Z. Easton was a Christian
missionary who was a strong opponent of the Faith, and I believe it was
Mirza Abu'l Fadil's book The Brilliant Proof which was written as a response
to his attacks. I'm sure Tony or someone will correct me if I've remembered
this incorrectly, so I won't take the time to look it up. :-D ) He must be
spinning in his grave--but no, he's been dragged into the Abha kingdom by
his clerical collar--I can just imagine 'Abdu'l-Baha smiling!
Good luck with the finals!
With loving Baha'i greetings,
Carmen
99999999999999999999999999999999999999
Carmen Mathenge
UCLA, Los Angeles, California, USA
Contact me for expert word processing,
copy editing, or English assistance.
99999999999999999999999999999999999999
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:45:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: Robert Parry
To: Richard Vernon Hollinger
Cc: "Eric D. Pierce" , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: (Blunt) Elites and Counter-Elites/ wasRe: Techne (re: lay Bahai)
well said hollinger
parry
On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Richard Vernon Hollinger wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Eric D. Pierce wrote:
>
> >
> > Of course we have heard the story of the raindrops and
> > the dog again, and have been reminded for the millionth
> > time of the moral decline of the educated religious
> > classes at the time and in the land of the birth of the
> > Faith, and their rejection of the Cause and subsequent
> > nefarious role in the persecution of the Founders and
> > Dawnbreakers.
>
> Let's not forget the leading role played by `ulama and religious students
> who converted to the Faith in the first generation. The Babi movement
> started as movement within their ranks and was spread into other social
> networks by them. If there's a lesson in this, I suppose that it is that
> knowledge and learning are neutral, but people are not.
>
> Richard
>
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:43:59 +0000 (GMT)
From: Robert Parry
To: Shohreh Mansouri
Cc: talisman , "Baha'i Discuss"
Subject: Re: Shetland Islands
i was a pioneer there for a year in 1973. does this count? (bet it dont)
robert parry
On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Shohreh Mansouri wrote:
> Any Baha'is on these two lists
> from the Shetland Islands?
>
> IF yes;
> will you please respond ASAP?
>
> THANKS VERY MUCH;
>
> Allah-u-Abha
> Shohre
>
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:12:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: "Mark A. Foster"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: lay Baha`is
Mark:
Your question happens to be one that a knowledge of Baha'i Middle East
studies can help answer. You wrote:
> However, do you think that Baha'u'llah, in using the term "learned,"
>had in mind only, or even primarily, those who had acquired a certain
>level of academic training? I would certainly never want to present
>myself as more learned than others based on my academic credentials or
>because I happen to have been fortunate enough to have been awarded a
>Ph.D.
The term in the original is "al-`ulama' fi 'l-Baha:," 'the learned in
Baha. Middle Eastern society was an estates-type society. One had the
umara' class of nobles (high government officials, great landlords,
tribal chieftains), the asnaf or urban guilds, the ra`iyyat or peasantry,
the `urafa or members of mystical Sufi orders, and the `ulama' or learned
in religion with seminary degrees.
In the 19th-century Iranian Baha'i community, people were still
categorized by the estate (tabaqih) to which they belonged, which was
marked by their dress. The umara' or nobles sometimes did not even have
a beard (as with the young `Abdu'l-Baha), despite the Islamic
prescription of it, and did not wear a turban but rather preferred other
headgear (including, in the Ottoman Empire, the fez). The `ulama' wore
beards and turbans and had formal seminary degrees. They included
Muqaddas, Nabil-i Akbar, Nabil-i A`zam, Mirza Abu'l-Fadl, Mirza Haydar
`Ali Isfahani, and many others.
It is this latter group to whom Baha'u'llah was self-evidently referring
in the Most Holy Book in 1873. There were no appointed Hands of the
Cause at that point, in any case. What Baha'u'llah meant was individuals
with a higher education (seminary or madrasih was the closest thing Iran
had to universities, except for the Tehran polytechnic, a small secular
institute founded in 1850) who applied their learning to His own and the
Bab's Tablets. Only four Hands were appointed by Baha'u'llah, and they
certainly did not exhaust the people He addressed as Learned in Baha.
So, Mark, like it or not you are certainly the sort of person Baha'u'llah
had in mind when He spoke of the Learned in Baha.
The identification of members of the appointed Institutions as ipso facto
members of the Learned in Baha' is a Shoghi-Effendi-era phenomenon. Such
an identification is fine, since presumably such appointees know the
Writings very well. But to make it an *exclusive* designation and to
exclude persons such as, say, Rob Stockman or Firuz Kazemzadeh from being
among the Learned in Baha' would be a departure from Baha'u'llah's own
diction and intent and would represent an ahistorical reading-back of
later Baha'i developments into earlier ones.
There is, of course, a sense in which all Baha'is are Learned in Baha,
and there are many different sources of learning. But there are passages
from Baha'u'llah, such as His Commentary on the Surah of the Sun, in
which He speaks of the Learned in such a way as to make clear he means
specialists.
The idea of the `ulama' or the Learned in Islam came to be perverted by
power-seeking. Baha'u'llah has restored the pure ideal of learning by
denying to the Learned in Baha any *authority* or special standing in the
community. But it would be perverse to insist that we develop no
specialists, who after all can be of help to the community in
understanding the purport of the Writings.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Sub: ... no subject ...
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 16:21:32 +0000 (GMT)
From: Robert Parry
To: talisman@indiana.edu
unsubscribe
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:05:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: re:engagement law
Dear Arindam and All,
As I understand it, the engagement begins when the parties
have secured parental consent - if both parties are of
Persian background, they must get married within 95 days.
The dowry also now only applies when both parties
are Persian.
There is a big misconception, I feel, in the Baha'i
community (at least the Persian Baha'i community) that once
two people begin to "date", they have to get married
within 95 days! More accurately, if the always lurking
(no offense to the lurkers here) eyes of the matchmakers,
catch two people smiling at each other, that's it - they
will take it upon themselves to ask the parents the
date of the wedding! (I may be exaggerating, but not
by much).
It seems to me that it could months, or even longer, for a
couple to know each other to the extent where they know if
marriage is the next correct step.
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 11:14:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Hands appointed by Baha'u'llah
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
In a very informative and enjoyable posting, Juan noted:
> Only four Hands were appointed by Baha'u'llah, ...
Actually I count five:
1. Haji Mulla Ali-Akbar, known as Haj Akhund
2. Mirza Ali-Muhammad, known as Ibn-i Asdaq
3. Haji Mirza Hasan-i Adib
4. Mirza Muhammad-Taqi (Ibn-i Abhar)
5. Aqa Siyyid Aqa-y Afnan
But, I entirely agree with everything else Juan said. (Thanks,
Juan.)
While I'm typing, yesterday John noted:
> You could invite all the world's Suhrawardi specialists to one
> big dinner party.
Now, there is an idea for a fun-filled evening! ;-}
regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: 21 Dec 95 13:02:24 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: A Devoted Teacher Passes
Dear Talismanians,
Yesterday a great teacher of the Faith passed into the Abha Kingdom. Maury
Willows succumbed after a long bout with cancer. In his late 80's, Maury
and his wife Lois held their Friday night firesides in Los Angeles for the
past 44 years, once a week without fail. Their teaching work reached
seekers who now serve as Counselors and House members, who have pioneered
to all continents of the globe, and who now themselves teach the Faith with
great devotion.
I was privileged to serve with Maury on the Los Angeles Local Spiritual
Assembly, where he served with great distinction. His energy, his
commitment to principle and his encyclopediac command of the Writings
made Maury a formidable force for the growth of the Faith.
His funeral will take place at Inglewood cemetary, not far from the
hallowed ground where Thornton Chase is buried, at 1 pm on Saturday,
December 23rd. Maury requested that in lieu of flowers, contributions
be made by Baha'is to the Fund set aside by the Los Angeles LSA to retire
the mortgage on the LA Baha'i Center; and that contributions by others go
to the Children's Enrichment Program at the Center.
Love,
David
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:24:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re;engagement
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Well, Kitab-i-Aqdas (Q and A) clearly states that 95 days must be
counted from the "Announcement" of marriage. The question is what
constitutes an announcement. Is sharing with friends the intent to
marry, as I did here an announcement: may be. I would think that
announcement means some kind of a formal document where both parties
and the parents indicate the desire to get married, like a wedding
card.
Love
Arindam
(Well, in my case the other party is not yet a Bahai, so I guess this
law will not apply. I do not add much significance to "Persian only"
because as has been pointed out that's just a matter of not scaring
people away.
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:25:17 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: RE. Food Fights : A deep worry .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Our esteemed John Walbridge off to the Family Planatations in sunny
Michagan , asks that we be good , a noble thought , and stated for the
record : To help he was taking his good wife with him . I trust this
means , Linda , that John does not have two wives . No doubt my dear
friend Linda can explain that for us either now or later . But if she
posts over the next week questions will need to be asked of that young
woman.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:39:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Rulers and learned
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I guess just like the Counsellors and the Auxiliary board memners are
a subset of the learned, the assembly members will be a subset of the
rulers. Because it is clear that in future there will be a separate
executive branch apart from the houses of justice.
Love
Arindam
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:12:32 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Indeed let us assess this Problem
Of course now Linda has stepped off the field so to speak. How to respond?
Yes indeed I would be angry if I felt one of my friends were being treated
unjustly - regardless of who was doing the treating.
But again that is not the real issue at the moment. The frustration stems
from ( it must) a spiritual stagnation that would cause such problems. In
constantly attacking *those people over there* we fall into the same mode of
behavior that we see each day on various talkshows. "All our problems is
those fools over there would get their damn act together!" This is what we
are constantly hearing wherever we turn.
And it continues to amaze me how the Guardian was so accurate in his
assessment of the conditions of the American community and how we are so
blind to it. The very problems that Linda and company are so distressed over
are a result of the spiritual illnesses that this community suffers from due
to our not couragiously standing to follow the Guardian's vision. What is
more - the "nefarious" elements within our own community that he warned
against can never be successfully dealt with until we do arise.
The administrative strongholds of a Faith, bound to be subjected on
the one hand, to a severe spiritual challenge from within, through the
inevitable impact of these devastating influences on its infant strength,
and, on the other, to the onslaught of ecclesiastical leaders, the
traditional defenders of religious orthodoxy from without, must be
multiplied and reinforced for the purpose of warding off the inevitable
attacks of the assailants, of vindicating the ideals and principles which
animate their defenders, and of ensuring the ultimate victory and
ascendency of the Faith itself over the **nefarious elements** seeking to
undermine it from within, and its powerful detractors aiming at its
extinction from without.
(Citadel of Faith, page 154)
Right now, here on Talisman and within our own communites we are watching a
frightening thing. We are seeing the majority of the community unravel. There
are no doubt wonderful exceptions, such as Terry's community. But the
evidence is overwhelming - and has been for quite a long time.
And if we really wish to follow the scholarly paranoia displayed here on
Talisman as a viable theory let us ask what strategy would be served by an
attack on the scholars and the intellectuals of the Faith by *those in
power*? If we have studied our history well enough we would immediately know
the purpose of such *attacks*. It would be to keep them so wrapped up in
their own castles that they could not take a good survey of the larger battle
being waged. How better to keep this community from upsetting the status quo
than to pin down its leaders of thought with harassing artillary fire?
Meanwhile the American Baha'i community continious to wither; no vision, no
direction, no spiritual strength - ineffectual and irrelevent.
But then what do you expect from a community that has been fed pap for
decades? The real food of spiritual battles echoing those exploits of the
dawn-breakers which would have strengthend us was never served up.
And here we sit, waiting like good little Chirstians for Baha'u'llah to
descend and save our pathetic little tushies . . .
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Sub: ... no subject ...
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:55:47 +0000 (MULTINET_TIMEZONE)
From: maeissin@ichange.com (Michael Eissinger)
To: AGhosh@uh.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
"I guess just like the Counsellors and the Auxiliary board memners are
a subset of the learned, the assembly members will be a subset of the
rulers. Because it is clear that in future there will be a separate
executive branch apart from the houses of justice.
" (AGhosh@uh.edu)
Actually, the Hands, the Counsellors and the Auxiliary Board members and
their assistants ARE the Institution of the Learned. The House of
Justice, the National and Local Assemblies ARE the Institions of the
Rulers. This is not a future condition, this is the current condition.
Michael Eissinger
LA
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:09:56 PST8PDT
Subject: Re (2): (Blunt) Elites and Counter-Elites/ wasRe: Techne (re: l
Dear Robert P. and Richard,
I'm perfectly happy to defer to your far vaster wisdom about the
sociological parallel between students within the religious
classes of Persia in the 1840s and western university/scholarly
life in the 1990s in the USA (or NZ or europe or ...).
Please expand on the idea that knowledge and learning are neutral.
Are we talking about some hypothetical utopian ideal or the real
world? Can you explain the popularity of books with titles like
"Everything I need to know I learned from my cat when I was in
kindergarten"? :)
I hope it is obvious that the main point of my original message
was to condemn Robert J.'s (of NZ) attempt at labeling John L,
Juan, Nima and Terry as elitists. For better or worse, let's
be honest, they would be more properly labeled as counter-elitists
(and I hope damn proud of it!). I see no unsurmountable problem
with honestly mapping out the full diversity of values, cultural
characteristics, ideological foundations and so on in the
community.
I just can't bring myself to tolerate the establishmentarian,
conformist, mainstream elitist paradigm that has sapped the
vitality of the community and permitted the acceptance of an
atmosphere in which the fundamentalist and dominant elements of
the community are allowed to rampage around as if they have a
right to "own" the "right way" of being Baha'i and bully everybody
else into submission.
It seems inevitable that the "bad karma" accumulated during the
purges of progressive elements in the (american) community in
the 1920's and 1930's would be revisited on the community in the
wake of the generally unsuccessful integration of the values of
the influx of liberal/countercultural youth into the community
during the 60's and 70's. The lack of subtlety that characterised
the process of thought control within the community of that
period should clearly have been understood to neccessarily give
rise to some sort of rebellion, or at least a long series of
skirmishes, between the progressive and traditionalist elements
in the community. The mirroring of the tension in the general
society over control of values between elites and counter-elites
in the american Baha'i community doesn't seem to follow the model
that Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian tried to get us to build the
community and administration around. The trick is, how to build
trust. I don't see it happening by an insistence on the superiority
of a majority conformist agenda.
If the Robert Johnston's of the world want to deplore the way some
of the intellectual dissidents in the community wrap themselves in
the cloak of scholarship and also want to yammer about the supposed
counter-elitist tendencies of the dissidents, then they ought to
shut up when it is pointed out that the majority from the beginning
has sought to wrap itself in the supposedly legitimizing reverse
cloak of majority opinion, orthodoxy and (gasp, I'm saying it!)
administrative authority.
As for the masses, please. There is little that the average
brainwashed middle class wage slave Baha'i in this country feels
that they can do. They have no motivation to get involved in some
unproven revolutionary reform agenda since the benefits of that
course of action are not at all apparent to them.
I'm pretty sick of the whole situation, but for the moment I'll
continue sitting on the sidelines trying to cheerlead for the
losing team. I hope we can eventually rewrite the rules and come
up with a better game to play, but we ain't goin' nowhere if
some of the people that could contribute to the development of
new rules are muzzled and vilified.
Please correct me if you see things otherwise,
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
> Date sent: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:45:46 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Robert Parry
> To: Richard Vernon Hollinger
> Copies to: "Eric D. Pierce" ,
talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: Re: (Blunt) Elites and Counter-Elites/ wasRe: Techne (re: lay
Bahai)
>
> well said hollinger
> parry
>
>
> On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Richard Vernon Hollinger wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Eric D. Pierce wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Of course we have heard the story of the raindrops and
> > > the dog again, and have been reminded for the millionth
> > > time of the moral decline of the educated religious
> > > classes at the time and in the land of the birth of the
> > > Faith, and their rejection of the Cause and subsequent
> > > nefarious role in the persecution of the Founders and
> > > Dawnbreakers.
> >
> > Let's not forget the leading role played by `ulama and religious students
> > who converted to the Faith in the first generation. The Babi movement
> > started as movement within their ranks and was spread into other social
> > networks by them. If there's a lesson in this, I suppose that it is that
> > knowledge and learning are neutral, but people are not.
> >
> > Richard
> >
>
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 13:35:07 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu
Subject: Reuters 12/21/95 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 95/12/21
> 1. 13:06 IRANIAN PRESIDENT RAFANJANI'S MOTHER DIES
> 2. 12:59 IRAN DENIES IT IS PLOTTING TO KILL ARAFAT
> 3. 12:02 THE LEGISLATION ORIGINALLY TARGETED ONLY IRAN BUT WAS
> 4. 08:30 DOSTUM SAID TO REFUSE TO REJOIN KABUL GOVERNMENT
>
>=START= XMT: 13:06 Thu Dec 21 EXP: 13:00 Sun Dec 24
>
>
> Iranian President Rafanjani's mother dies
> TEHRAN, Dec 21 (Reuter) - The mother of Iranian President Akbar Hashemi
>Rafsanjani died on Thursday, aged 90, state-run Tehran radio said.
> ``The dear mother of Mr President Hashemi Rafsanjani today answered the
>call of God at the age of 90,'' the radio said, without giving further details.
> A funeral procession for Rafsanjani's mother will be held after Friday
>prayer in Tehran, the radio added.
> Rafsanjani was born in 1934, in a middle class family in a
>pistachio-growing village in southern Iran.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 12:59 Thu Dec 21 EXP: 12:00 Sun Dec 24
>
>
> Iran denies it is plotting to kill Arafat
> TEHRAN, Dec 21 (Reuter) - Iran on Thursday rejected as ``baseless'' an
>accusation by a Palestinian security official that Tehran was plotting to kill
>PLO leader Yasser Arafat.
> Iran's official news agency IRNA carried a statement by the Iranian Embassy
>in Rome dismissing as ``baseless'' the claim by Amin al-Hindi, secret police
>chief in the Gaza Strip self-rule enclave, who was quoted on Wednesday by an an
>Italian television station as saying Iran was plotting to kill Arafat.
> The embassy said ``such allegations originated from the Palestinian
>official's concern about the Israeli intelligence service Mossad's intention to
>murder Arafat and his aides,'' the agency said. It did not elaborate.
> Hindi had told the Videomusic news programme: ``At this moment there is the
>possibility of an attack on Arafat.''
> ``The risks aren't of internal conspiracy. The planning and preparation of
>this attack are being done in a country which has good experience of political
>assassinations. Frankly, I'm talking about Iran,'' he was quoted as saying.
> ``We are afraid that it (Iran) will entrust the job to extremist groups
>ready to sabotage the peace, to kill Arafat, such as Abu Nidal,'' Hindi said.
> Palestinian police last month arrested five people linked to the militant
>Palestinian group Abu Nidal who they said had planned to kill the Palestine
>Liberation Organisation leader. Abu Nidal opposes Arafat's peace moves with
>Israel.
> Iran, which denouces PLO's peace with Israel as a sell-out, says it only
>gives political support to groups that oppose it.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 12:02 Thu Dec 21 EXP: 12:00 Sun Dec 24
>
>
> The legislation originally targeted only Iran but was expanded to include
>Libya just before the final vote. To become law, the bill would also have to be
>passed by the House of Representatives and signed by President Bill Clinton.
> ``Now we have a bill that says to those companies that provide investment
>in Iran's oil and natural gas sectors, 'you can trade with us, or trade with
>them','' D'Amato said.
> Sanctions could prohibit Export-Import Bank assistance for exports to the
>targeted country, he added. The United States would not issue any license to
>export goods or technology to a sanctioned entity and could bar U.S. banks
>from lending money to them. Any sanctioned foreign financial institution will
>lose its designation as a primary dealer in the United States, D'Amato said.
> ``Iran uses its hard currency to fund efforts aimed at spreading terrorism
>and obtaining weapons of mass destruction. This bill will combat those
>efforts,'' D'Amato said.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 08:30 Thu Dec 21 EXP: 08:00 Sun Dec 24
>
>
> Dostum said to refuse to rejoin Kabul government
> ISLAMABAD, Dec 21 (Reuter) - Afghan warlord General Abdul Rashid Dostum has
>rejected Iranian pressure for him to rejoin the Kabul government, Afghan
>political sources said on Thursday.
> They said Iran's Deputy Foreign Minister Alauddin Borujerdi held lengthy
>talks with Dostum this week in the north Afghan city of Mazar-i-Sharif but
>failed to persuade him to to drop his opposition to President Burhanuddin
>Rabbani.
> Borujerdi, the sources said, had been trying to arrange for Rabbani and
>Dostum to meet, either in Mazar-i-Sharif or in Tehran, to announce a new
>alliance against the Islamic Taleban militia who have been besieging Kabul
>since early October.
> But Dostum, who was defence minister until he launched an abortive attempt
>to seize control of Kabul in January 1994, told Borujerdi that Rabbani must
>resign, the sources said.
> He argued that if he agreed to an alliance against the mainly ethnic
>Pashtun Taleban, then the pro-government Pashtun faction, the Ittehad-i-Islami
>led by Abdurrab Rasul Sayyaf, was likely to defect, creating a dangerous new
>divide pitting Pashtuns against Farsi-speaking ethnic Tajiks and Uzbeks.
> Dostum's forces are mainly Uzbek, while Rabbani and his top military
>commander Ahmad Shah Masood are both Tajiks.
> Diplomats say Iran is hostile to the militant Sunni Moslem Taleban, who
>captured the western city of Herat, near the Iranian border, from government
>forces in September.
> However, Iran has told the Taleban governor of Herat, Mullah Yar Mohammad,
>that it will send a delegation to Herat soon to discuss border problems,
>refugees and a Taleban demand to open a ``consulate'' in the east Iranian city,
>Mashhad, the sources said.
> Iran runs a consulate in the south Afghan city of Kandahar, where the
>Taleban movement has its headquarters.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:41:17 -0900
To: "Eric D. Pierce" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re (2): (Blunt) Elites and Counter-Elites/ wasRe: Techne (re: l
Dear Eric,
Funny how the serpent twists... but... one question (to you who
is cheerleader of the losing team )... and this
question is ...it seems me ...at the heart of the perpetual quarrel that is
Talisman...it is the question that returns to my mind again and again...it
is the key axis about which all this turn here....
The question: should scholars in their scholarship keenly seek to conform
with the wishes of the House or not?
To help you with this let me state that I think so, and Juan and John
think not.
Robert (of the Robert Johnstons of the world)
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 16:26:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: "Eric D. Pierce"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re (2): (Blunt) Elites and Counter-Elites/ wasRe: Techne (re: l
On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Eric D. Pierce wrote:
> Dear Robert P. and Richard,
>
> I'm perfectly happy to defer to your far vaster wisdom about the
> sociological parallel between students within the religious
> classes of Persia in the 1840s and western university/scholarly
> life in the 1990s in the USA (or NZ or europe or ...).
I think we have miscommunicated here. I did not intend to draw a
sociological parallel between these two social groups; rather, I was
making the point that the opposition of the `ulama to the Faith in Iran
should not be used to create suspicion of knowledge and the learned or to
support and anti-intellectual perspective.
> Please expand on the idea that knowledge and learning are neutral.
What I meant was that knowledge and learning, like other tools, can be
used for constructive or destructive purposes. I can use a wrench to fix
the plumbing in your house and I can also use it to smash the windshield of
your car. But it would be unfair to condemn the use of wrenches because
they have been used to smash windshields or condemn those who own wrenches
because others who own them have used them destructively.
Maybe I can bring this point home better by recounting a conversation I
had with our own Juan Cole a number of years ago about possibilities of
employment for scholars in Middle Eastern Studies. As many of you know,
there are not too many teaching jobs in this field, and I
mentioned that there were some job opportunities in the U.S. State
Department and intelligence agencies, as they did recruit scholars from
this field of study. Juan took the position that it would be unethical
to work for intelligence agencies--he argued, in fact, that Baha'is
should be prohibited from working for them--because the studies they
conducted would likely be used for destructive purposes: the halting of
democratic processes in other parts of the world, etc. (I will let Juan
correct me if I misstated his position, and I hope we can avoid a
discussion about U.S. foreign policy.) The point here is that the same
knowledge and expertise that can be used to create bridges accross
cultures and facilitate better understanding between peoples can also be
used to facilitate the oppression and destruction of other peoples. The
knowledge is not to blame, nor is the entire body of experts who have
such knowledge. Culpability lies with those who misuse the knowledge.
Richard Hollinger
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Torn Inside
To: theos-l@vnet.net
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 16:38:47 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Herewith a progress report on my research for a book about
Edgar Cayce, with comments relevant to Theosophical and Baha'i
concerns.
At present I'm in the middle of Vol. 7 of the Cayce Library
Series, each volume averaging 500 pages, with 18 to go (I
skipped #5; there are 24 total). The first volume is excerpts
from the readings on Life and Death. The next two volumes are
Meditation I and II; then come Dreams and Dreaming I and II
(after 600 pages of dream interpretations I needed a break;
thus skipping Vol. V). Sixth comes Early Christian Era, just
finished; #7 is Study Group Readings. While I feel more and
more sure that this is something I must write about, and must
therefore spend the next year or two studying, there is a very
definite ambivalence developing; an inner split that causes
something which feels like emotional fabric being ripped.
The inner tearing comes between the intensely positive, lyrical
mysticism evoked by the Meditation readings, the Life and Death
volume, and the Study Group readings, and the loud screeching
of my bullshit detector set off by the Early Christian
readings-- with the dream material at an intermediate level of
moderate interest and appreciation. The Early Christian volume
reveals that dozens, nay scores of people who got past life
readings from Cayce *just happened* to have been eyewitnesses
to the life of Christ. Without arguing for my perception, I'll
simply state that I *intuit* that this is simply regurgitation
of the Bible, turned into fictional past lives, not done with
deceptive intent but rather fulfilling some psychic need of
Christians to imagine themselves living in immediate proximity
to their Lord. It definitely comes across at a much lower
level of plausibility than the medical readings, or the
psychological advice on attitudes and emotions, or several
other elements of Cayce's work. On the other hand, the
Atlantis descriptions and prophecies of drastic earth changes
will also set the BS detector off, no doubt.
So there's the feeling of "Oh, no, all this wonderful,
uplifting, helpful, solid advice on meditation and dreams, on
basic patterns of living, RUINED by nutty implausible occult
pretensions about past lives, future earthquakes, lost
civilizations." And an inner ...rrrrip... as
the part of me that finds overwhelming value in *some* of Cayce's readings
*resists* the awareness that there is some *junk mail* in the
akashic records.
Here now to Theosophical and Baha'i parallels. The very same
stress between part of one that sees immense spiritual wisdom
and clarity in a source and another part that sees misleading,
dangerous, and even *silly* elements in the very same source's
teachings-- has been felt in those other contexts. From that
small sample, I conclude that probably *any* spiritual
affiliation sets up a force field in which one must contend
with the cognitive dissonance between those parts that *ring
true* and those parts that *thunk* and just don't seem
plausible. Each of us who contends with that dissonance has an
evolving capacity to work out the conflicts. But there are
many strategies, and we probably experience most of them along
the way. True believers, (been there, done that) whether in Blavatsky,
Baha'u'llah, Cayce, etc. simply say "I
*know* the inner voice telling me of the ultimate spiritual
authenticity of this message is reliable; therefore the other
inner voice saying `watch out, this stuff is fill of holes' is to
be *ignored* *silenced* and *destroyed.*"
On the other hand, the cynic says "I know that the flaws my
critical reasoning finds in this system are really there, I
trust my thinking and the evidence, *therefore* when I was
imagining some ultimate spiritual value to the teachings it was
all *imagination and self-deception.*" So people define
themselves as believers or unbelievers, thereby missing out on
a great growth opportunity. To feel *simultaneously* the awe,
reverence, joy of recognizing something as emanating from a
divine source *and* the unease, regret and perplexity caused by
recognizing that it has been contaminated, distorted, and
limited by *human contraints* is the beginning of wisdom.
I'm sure that sorting out the wheat from the chaff in the Cayce
readings will lead into controversies, based on past experience
with Theosophists and Baha'is. But the compulsion to
separate fact from fiction is the fuel that keeps the search
for truth going forward, step by step, day by day.
Happy holidays to everyone still reading at this point!
=END=
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: B.M.Elsmore@massey.ac.nz (Bronwyn Elsmore)
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 22:11:18 +0000
Unsubscribe temporarily.
Cheers, Bronwyn Elsmore
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 23:17:07 MEZ-1
From: Noorbakhsh Monzavi
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: nmo@postman.hibo.no
Subject: About: "Is there any remover of difficulties ..."
Hello dear Baha'i and non-Baha'i fellows,
Does anybody know about
====================================================================
the significance of saying the prayer
"IS THERE ANY REMOVER OF DIFFICULTIES SAVE THEE ..." (from the Bab)
five hundred (500) times?
====================================================================
In other words,
have the believers been said, in the past, by the Bab or Baha'ulla'h or
Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi or The Universal house of Justice
to say "IS THERE ANY REMOVER OF DIFFICULTIES SAVE THEE ..."
500 times at the time of great need, ...
Any response will be appreciated.
Greetings,
Noorbakhsh.
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:16:51 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: your mail
> The House of Justice, the National and Local Assemblies ARE the
> Institions of the Rulers. This is not a future condition, this is the
> current condition.
Dear Michael--
Could you please provide hard textual support from the Writings of
Baha'u'llah Himself, or even `Abdu'l-Baha for that matter, where the
Instituion of the Learned is defined by Him/Them as being *exclusively* the
House, LSA's, ABM's CBC's, NSA's, Hands, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong,
but the word used by Baha'u'llah is `ulama-ye Baha -- `ulama is the
plural of `alim. The following is the lexiographical definition of the
word:
`alim and `aleem signify the same, (IJ, Msb, K) as epithets applied to a
man; (k;) i.e. Possessing the attribute of `ilm [knowledge] (IJ, Msb, TA)
as a faculty firmly rooted in the mind; [or learned or versed in science
and literature]; the former being used in [what is more properly] the
sense of the latter; (IJ, TA;) which is an intensive epithet: (TA) the
pl. is `ulama'u and `ulaam'un, (K.,) the latter of which is pl. of
`aalim'un; (IB, TA;) the former being [properly] pl. of `aleem'un; and
`aalimoon'a is [a] pl. of `alim'un; (Msb;) [but] `ulama'u is used as the
plural of both, (IJ, TA) and by him who says only `aalim'un [as the
sing.], (Sb, TA;) because `aalim'un is used in the sense of `aleem'un: to
him who is entering upon the study of al-`ilm [knowledge], the epithet
mut`allim [which may generally be rendered learning, or a learner,] is
applied; not `aalim'un (IJ, TA.) `aalim'un is also expl. as signifying
_*One who does according to his knowledge*_ [ipso facto proving my _techne_
argument, Nima]
E.W. Lane & Stanley Lane-Poole, Arabic-English Lexicon, vol. 1 (shin-ya),
Islamic Texts Society (Cambridge: 1984), p. 2141, bottom left-hand column
to upper middle column.
Regards,
Nima (a fellow-traveller of Juan's "Back to Baha'u'llah" thesis)
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
"In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:32:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: last refuge of the scoundrel
It is, of course, by now an old and well-tried dirty trick of Baha'i
ultraconservatives to identify their position with that of the Head of
the Faith and to accuse anyone who departs from literalism of
disloyalty to the Institutions. Also to constantly mutter `Judas' and
something about a covenant in the presence of any Baha'i with whom they
disagree.
Ben Johnson said it well on April 7, 1775: "Patriotism is the last
refuge of a scoundrel." Likewise Baha'i ultramontanism.
Can someone please provide any documentation for the notion that the
Universal House of Justice was intended by Baha'u'llah to be the arbiter
of ancient history? I can provide lots of documentation that it was not.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
=END=
From: Rick Schaut
To: ""
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Temporarily Off-line
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:36:17 -0800
unsubscribe talisman richs@microsoft.com
[The above included for majordomo's sake.]
Every couple of years, or so, we have to
make the pilgrimage back to Wisconsin
during the dead of winter just to remind
ourselves of the primary reason we
moved to Seattle in the first place.
See you all soon.
Warmest Regards,
Rick
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:40:25 -0500
To: mfoster@tyrell.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Homosexuality/Conscience
In a message dated 95-12-13 21:21:05 EST, mfoster@tyrell.net (Mark A. Foster)
writes:
> I look forward to discussing these subjects (yoga and Tantra?) more
>with you. As you may know, I am a trained hatha yoga teacher and have,
>in the past been taught ("initiated" into) two forms of yogic meditation
>(both variations of Shiv Dayal's surat shabd yoga). I am immensely
>interested in Indian religion, especially the Kashmir Shaivite school of
>Tantra and its marvelously esoteric ontology.
>
> Blessings to you,
>
Mark, pardon the delay! These are busy days and I was kept away by snow as
well!
I am not particularly interested in the details of yogic or tantric practice
or even yogic or tantric philosophy, although I would not find them wholly
irrelevant. Rather what interests me is the close relationship between the
oceanic mystical experience and sexual experience,including forms of
deliberate promiscuity as well as prolonged illicit relationships of all
kinds, as well as passionate licit relationships, but as well as
intoxication brought on by use of drugs such as alcohol, marijuana, LSD, or
even cocaine and heroin,or sleep deprivation or starvation or epilepsy or
other brain-disorders such as manic-depression. Recall, if you will, what
Stanwood Cobb said about LSD. This is not to dismiss anybody's experience by
connecting it with things he or she may find distasteful, but myself I find
none of the foregoing really distasteful or beyond understanding. Some things
may be obviously harmful to the individual and people involved with him/her
in the longterm, such as gambling or drug addiction or promiscuity, but in
all such experiences as I've had personally(you'd be surprised) I can attest,
as many mystics have, there are traces of illumination. We will not be able
to have a sober world until we have learned the lessons of drunkenness. I do
not mean to disparage any of the experiences I have listed by associating
them with the others. And homosexual relationships and promiscuity are not
the same thing and I do not mean to imply that they are. Promiscuity has its
own forms of gain and loss, its own spirituality, and there is an amply
testified to spirituality in longterm gay and lesbian relationships.Allen
Ginsberg has written well and movingly (and sometimes frankly ) of both
longterm and very brief encounters. Now, this is but one aspect of the
situation, and in a brief post I can only touch on it enough to indicate the
territory and, i imagine, get a lot of good people upset with me. I am
thinking in terms of law providing a structure which creates a number of
possibilities for response. I myself view all of this with relative lack of
fear. I will even be so bold as to say that law makes disobedience possible
as well as obedience. But on the other hand the times change and with them
the meanings of experience. That is another aspect-- whither our collective
experience is going. The situation is dynamic. I will say about John's post
"homosexuality", that though i sympathize with his goal of providing for
legalized homosexual marriage within the faith, it doesn't look possible and
his textual arguments have been heard before and are not convincing(to me).
In addition, his summary of the possibilities of harm are incomplete. I do
not mean to assert that heterosexual society would necessarily be
destabilized if homosexual practice lost all stigma, but it is a possibility
which must be considered if only to be dismissed. Otherwise one cannot
convincingly clainm to have considered all the possibilities. "Sexual
identity" after all, is socially constructed, as is "falling in love." The
situation of sexual practices is dynamic. Liberal theory appeals to our sense
of fairness but may presuppose more stability in sexual orientation than the
facts warrant. On the other hand, we may find the meaning of the law in how
we circumvent it. Or perhaps both are true and(this is the position i find
most probable--the most difficult one!) In all cases i think we will have
ample reasons to be grateful for the explorations, both documented and
undocumented, of every wanderer in the wilderness. I know when i have time
again in a few days i will have to explain myself a bit.
thinking outloud, fingering a hornet's nest,
david taylor
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:54:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Baha'i socialism in Warwick
I found this Baha'i document on the World Wide Web and much admired it. It
seems Warwick, U.K., is a soul-sister city of our own Omaha.
TITLE AFTER COMMUNISM - WHAT NEXT?
THE BAHA'I FAITH /
"The time has come when those who preach the dogmas of
materialism, whether of the east or the west, whether of capitalism or
socialism, must give account of the moral stewardship they have
presumed to exercise..."
(The Promise of World Peace, October 1985)
Since the above words were written, great changes have come about in
various parts of the world, particularly in eastern Europe and the
former Soviet Union.
THE RETREAT OF COMMUNISM /
Throughout eastern Europe, totalitarian communism has been in
retreat. Large populations, which were raised in the expectation of
social justice, did not find communism able to provide it. The reasons
for this were many and complex, but must surely include the gradual
corruption of the original goals of communism, which included the
ultimate aim of world brotherhood, leading to the unity of the world's
peoples.
Communism is in essence a political system, and rejects a spiritual
basis for life. Lacking what has been called fear of God, and without a
detailed set of everyday personal teachings, it does not provide for the
day-to-day realities of human relationships. This deficiency allowed
practices to creep into the system which are now generally viewed as
corruption. Individual human rights have not always been respected;
indeed, abuse of individuals has sometimes taken place on a huge
scale. Communism, as a political system, is based on the exercise of
power. However, power does not necessarily confer legitimacy and
authority.
It is also true that communism has not always been ecologically aware;
and, irrespective of ownership of the means of production, both
communism and capitalism have exploited the most basic means of
production - the earth. In some parts of eastern Europe, the resultant
pollution was one of the major sources of dissatisfaction with the
communist economic and value system.
IS CAPITALISM THE ANSWER? /
Some observers, seeing the needs of eastern Europe and its rejection
of centralised planning and political slavery, have hailed the overthrow
of communism as the triumph of capitalism. But is this true? Is
capitalism a satisfactory answer? Following "market forces" does not
bring happiness and prosperity to everybody, as the rapid emergence
of a poor underclass in some former communist countries shows. On a
wider scale, capitalism ensures that those who control the sale of tea
or cocoa live in comfort, but does it do the same for those who harvest
these crops?. The Universal House of Justice, which is the elected
world body of the Baha'i community, wrote in 1985:
"All too many ..... callously abandon starving millions to the
operations of a market system that all too clearly is aggravating the
plight of the majority of mankind, while enabling small sections to live
in a condition of affluence scarcely dreamed of by our forebears."
It seems extremely unlikely that the people in the former socialist
countries who were shown daily in their news media the
unemployment, homelessness and social inequalities of capitalist
societies, will readily accept these as inevitable features of society.
These will surely seem as unacceptable to people raised in socialist
societies as the lack of free speech, lack of choice, and the
pervasiveness of the secret police seemed to people raised in
democratic countries.
WHAT ABOUT DEMOCRACY? /
The word "democracy", like the word "socialism", means different
things to different people and in different countries. In everyday usage,
it is generally taken to mean that the people have a free choice of
representatives or of rulers. In practice, thois choice is narrowed down
to a choice between parties or between a few individuals only. In its
original sense of government by the people it has largely been
relegated to an ideal, and now usually relates to questions of
government of the people.
Yet it should be possible, given the advances in communication, to
combine the two, and develop a system of government in which the
representatives are of the people and from the people, rather than
imposed on the people. We should even be able to progress past the
stage of having parties in competition with one another, with the
divisiveness which this can cause. It is precisely this kind of change in
world administration which Baha'is anticipate.
IS SOCIALISM FINISHED? /
Socialism, as an ideal society arranged for the support of all of its
members, can still exist as a goal. However, it is clear that a form of
socialism must evolve which takes account of the human spirit and its
longing for spiritual fulfilment, and it is in this context that socialists
will find their theories echoed in the Baha'i revelation.
DOES THE BAHA'I FAITH HAVE THE ANSWER? /
So could the Baha'i Faith be the answer for those people who have
been spiritually starved, but who were raised in an atmosphere of
expectation that brotherhood, justice and oneness are attainable ideals,
the basis of future society? Baha'is believe that spiritual values
transcend theological rivalries. In eastern Europe, following the
weakening of communist power, violent conflicts between different
religions and denominations have broken out in several countries. It
seems that the Baha'i emphasis on the oneness of religion will have a
deep and lasting appeal there. Baha'is believe that all the major
religions derive their original inspiration from God, although their
teachings may have become changed over time. They accept
Baha'u'llah as the Promised One of all the religions, and believe that
His Teachings are designed for this age.
WORLD SOCIETY /
Another present source of conflict is nationalism. Many of the peoples
formerly under communist rule are still struggling to be recognised as
nations. At the same time, national membership of economic and
political federations, for practical reasons as well as for human
solidarity, is inreasing throughout the world. Rather than having
certain powerful nations exerting pressure on others, true world order
will come about only when there is a genuine world body, elected from
among all the world's peoples, which will ensure the security and
freedom of all nations. A universal Bill of Rights, to safeguard the
freedom of individuals, will also be necessary. Within such a world
society, all nations, races, tribes and peoples would become respected
as part of one human family. Nationalism would then take second
place to world citizenship. The division of people into different classes
would become irrelevant.
BAHA'I ECONOMIC PRINCIPLES /
The elimination of extreme personal wealth and the elimination of
poverty are major goals of Baha'i society. Economic conditions
obviously vary from place to place and from time to time, and
therefore these goals dictate certain economic principles rather than a
rigid system. For instance, workers are entitled to an annual share of
the profits of any enterprise. Their share is a right, and not to be
confused with the cosmetic arrangements found in both capitalist and
communist countries. In addition, the abolition of industrial slavery is
itself a stated Baha'i principle. Consultation is regarded as the guiding
light in human affairs, which also has great implications for the
workplace. Agriculture is considered as the foremost industry, since
food production is crucial to human happiness, but methods must now
be developed which are beneficial to all life. A world currency also
needs to be established. At present, currencies are assessed daily
against each other, leading to great advantages for the richest handful
of nations and to destabilisation of economies caused by currency
speculation. A world currency would remove these problems.
A NEW FORM OF GOVERNMENT /
Baha'is believe that a totally new form of government is necessary.
The Baha'i pattern of administration is a simple but flexible system. In
each town or village an election takes place for a Local Spiritual
Assembly, which is a body of nine people chosen from the community.
The election is by secret ballot, and is completely free, without any
nomination or canvassing, and with no party or elite putting itself
forward. Each individual simply chooses the nine people he or she
feels inspired to vote for. The Local Spiritual Assembly has a wide
range of duties to ensure general well-being, and its members should:
"...regard themselves as the guardians appointed of God for all that
dwell on earth."
By a similar process, delegates are chosen who elect a Secondary
(national) House of Justice. These national bodies elect the Universal
House of Justice. Baha'u'llah said:
"This Earth is but one country and mankind its citizens."
Experience in a number of eastern European countries has shown how
quickly these Local Spiritual Assemblies can form when the conditions
are right, and how creative they can be in responding to economic and
social needs. Having no clergy, and having an essentially "grass-roots"
administration, the Baha'i Faith is demonstrating that it has much to
offer the peoples of eastern Europe.
Published by the Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of Warwick.
Approved by the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the
United Kingdom,
27, Rutland Gate, London, SW7 1PD.
All quotations are from the Baha'i writings.
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 16:10:07
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Unsubscribe for a while
I am afraid I have to unsubscribe from Talisman for the next week or
so. I am at my mother's house in Florida and dependent on e-mail to
communicate with the office. Unfortunately, currently the Talisman
computer "BCC:"s every message to me twice, and this absolutely freaks
out CC:Mail Mobile, the communications package I am using. Such
messages will not be transmitted from the Baha'i National Center's
computer to my laptop over the telephone line. Not only that, all the
other messages I get from other sources than Talisman will not
transmit either, because messages that contain two "BCC"s cause the
entire software package to lock up. Complaints to the manufacturer of
CC:Mail Mobile have been ineffective; they do not understand. And we
cannot duplicate the problem because CC:Mail Mobile does not allow
one, under any circumstances, to create a message "BCC"ed or "CC"ed to
someone twice.
Fortunately I can still send messages, because the first thing my
software does when I connect to Wilmette by phone is send messages in
my outbox. As soon as it finishes that it tries to receive messages
from my inbox, and that is when it gets locked.
I started getting Talisman messages with two "BCC"s about December 16.
Every message from that date I have checked has them, while messages
from Tarjuman or from other sources do not have two "BCC"s. Does
everyone get messages from the Talisman computer that say "BCC" in
them twice?
Anyway, I hope to be back on board in a few days or a week. But with
my increased workload as of January 1st, I doubt I will be reading or
writing practically anything on Talisman until August 1996.
-- Rob
=END=
From: "Desperately Heartless Ornery Varmint"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 16:03:24 PST8PDT
Subject: Re (2b): (Blunt) Elites and Counter-Elites/ wasRe: Techne (r
Dearest Robert (and any other deranged subscribers that are still reading),
As usual, your unsurpassed rectitude awes and inspires me.
re:
> Date sent: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:54:35 -0900
> To: "Eric D. Pierce"
> From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
> Subject: Re (2): (Blunt) Elites and Counter-Elites/ wasRe: Techne (re:
l
> Sir:
> re:
> >
> >Please correct me if you see things otherwise,
>
> You are beyond correction, I think..
Actually, I was suggesting that *Richard* feel free to critique
my muddlesome analysis of American Baha'i history. Either he
1) agrees, 2) couldn't stomach reading beyond the first paragraph
or two, 3) didn't want to stick his neck out, 4) doesn't care,
5) doesn't have time, 6) whatever..., 7) whatever else...
>
> sadly,
>
> R
>
Still muddling,
EP
-----------------------------------------------------------------
:
: Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:41:17 -0900
: To: "Eric D. Pierce" , talisman@indiana.edu
: From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
: Subject: Re (2): (Blunt) Elites and Counter-Elites/ wasRe: Techne (re: l
:
: Dear Eric,
: Funny how the serpent twists... but... one question (to you who
: is cheerleader of the losing team )... and this
: question is ...it seems me ...at the heart of the perpetual quarrel that is
: Talisman...it is the question that returns to my mind again and again...it
: is the key axis about which all this turn here....
:
: The question: should scholars in their scholarship keenly seek to conform
: with the wishes of the House or not?
:
: To help you with this let me state that I think so, and Juan and John
: think not.
:
: Robert (of the Robert Johnstons of the world)
:
Yes of course, and they should also simply be in such a perpetual
state of absolute spiritual ecstasy and confirmation of belief that
they don't deviate even an iota from any command, principle or law in
the writings.
Of course the problem is that they would then end up depriving you of
your gloating over their shortcomings, and we can't have that.
With even more dysfunctional pre-holiday cheer and love,
Eric D. (one ornery varmint with nothing to loose) Pierce
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:59:23 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Donna Katich Operation News .
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Donna was in the operating room from 10.30 until 2.30 , she is now in
the recovery room . But there normal movement the signs are good
prayers needed.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:34:38 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Native American Baha'i Vision Quest (Part II)
_Spirit Song of Remembrance and Condolence (Continued from Part I)_
His voice choked and broke with emotion, bringing further words to a
halt. Ocean of tears swam in his eyes and it seemed that he wept with the
grief and remorse of all those millions who had perished in the last 500
years; for a beautiful world that was lost. Slowly, my relative stood up,
shrugging away his blanket, and approached the fire. He united his bag of
medicine, reaching inside for tobacco. Looking upon the black immensity
of a star-strewn space. He lifted a pinch of tobacco to the heavens and
cried piteously in a loud voice, calling for the Powers to behold.
"What I have here is an offering to the powers above, below
around and within and humbly beg a plea of hearing to be
whispered in the ear of the Creator, to tell the people who are
suffering, these humans who dwell upon Mother Earth. I, the
Ancestor of this young one here, have been appointed to speak
as the voice of the Great Council of Elders in the Spirit World,
and declare to the Spirits above that the wisdom offered by the
pain in history has been found. As such, the agony of dismember-
ment of the will of all people, hewn by the blunt scalpels of
fear, bring all around to the point of history where the path
of peace and service to others had been severed. That place is
now the present and my grandson of seven generations removed has
chosen a course to uncreate the 500 years of destruction and loss;
to do his part in a global ceremony unifying the human family so
that paradise will return. Help my grandson tell all Native nations
that it is time to join together as one; it is the first step in
doing our part in the unmaking of what has been done. Help him be
a Hawk, a messenger bearing news that a Holy Being bringing the
power and means to re-unite the broken Hoop of Nations into One
has already come, and like a thief in the night, has gone. Hear
me, Powers of the Seven Directions, aid this young one, stand by
him always and make his path of destiny clear. Enable him to make
a stand and announce that a nine pointed star of Universal, Eternal
Truth is rising above the now black horizons to herald the Fifth
World to come, ensuring a Most Great Peace for the next seven
generations unborn. This sun that will rise, bringing the light,
will dispel the impenetrable night now upon us, here in the darkest
hours before the Dawn. _Nyaah! Doneho, Wiyo, Nyaweh, Swenio_: It
is said and it is done."
My ancestor offered a pinch of tobacco to the Seven Directions,
casting each into the flames until the tobacco was gone. We had come full
circle around this tale and had arrived to the Center card; a point
around which this casting has revolved. The flames crackled with its
sounds of hunger, filling the air with the smell of smoke, bringing
stinging tears, blurring the image of Buffalo, and it appeared to be
walking towards me towards through a mist fog.
"With this smoke carrying this prayer made by all of your
Elders, it is coming, coming in a sacred manner, making the
ground holy as it walks. It is coming in a sacred manner, making
the ground sacred as it walks."
"Behold, the White Buffalo turns into a woman, making holy the
ground as She walks. She carries the Pipe of the Peacemaker, coming
in a sacred manner, making the ground holy as She walks."
"She comes in a sacred manner, bringing the Pipe to you, the
seventh generation. Pick up the Pipe and carry it close to your
heart, praying and living for peace, healing the shattered hoop
of nations, making the ground holy as you walk, making the Earth
holy in sacred manner."
"Behold, for _White Buffalo Calf Woman(4)_ brings a message
from those who sit in Council of the Spirit World, announcing that
_Quetzalcoatl_, the _Lord of the Dawn_, that _Deganawidah(5)_, the
_Peace-maker_, that _Mohammad_, the _Friend of the Creator_, that
Moses, _who Conversed with the Maker of Life_, that _Christ_, the
_Prince of Peace_; All of these Divine Beings arise from One
Essence; that each had brought a common theme; each had promised
an Age of Peace, Heaven on Earth; each had promised that a Holy
One with a Name of Light would return, coming in sacred manner,
making the ground Holy by re-mending the _Sacred Circle of the
Yellow, the Black, the Red and the White_. Come, raise the call
to make ready for this Holy Being, carrying the Pipe of Peace."
"Come, raise the call of the Return of Quetzalcoatl, the
Feathered Serpent, the Lord of the Dawn, who is bringing Ace-yotl,
One world for all."
"Grandson, you have a mission which you had chosen before you
were born. This casting is to remind you of a pact made with the
_Family of Light_ to be harmoniously defiant in this system of fear
and chaos through the power of grounding intention and purpose upon
the Earth through the power of thought alone. It is a choice offered
to many, few have chosen to own it; their birth-right to shine
in the integrity of Spirit in the face of seemingly insurmountable
odds."
"Stand on the highest mountain as a beacon of light in the
dark, show the _Way_ by example, banishing all shadows, and do
know that you are not alone. Others have and know this power
found in mastering thought and action, and drawn together in
common focus, you will access the principle of critical mass,
where the strength of the few standing together in the integrity
of your collective light will merge a higher vibration and
dimension with this one in an instant, blurring the edges of
matter and energy, flesh and spirit, transforming an old, faded
world into a new, bright realm of light."
"Know and live this wisdom that is offered, and a power will
be given to create a harvest of abundance to share with those who
carry in their bones a heritage, ancient and imperishable, formed
in those who are related in the Family of Light."
"Become who you already are, full of god-like wisdom and
knowledge, teach by intention and action to those who are afraid
and lost in the Dark. Light your Being by beholding an inner
Beauty, pure and holy, shining brightly, casting a light for
those who are lost in the valley of indecision, in these darkest
hours before the Dawn."
Gently, he reached out and gripped my shoulder in kinship.
"Go, my relative, my grandson of seven generations removed. I
am and a host of others are with you at all times, and are closer
to you than your life vein. Go and leave these cities of steel and
stone, for we, the Family of Light, your ancestors, are with you
in spirit, so share a new system of thought and action for all who
hear it; go and create the World anew."
"Go, and together with all your relatives who hear this as a
Song of Remembrance that resonates a knowing, a chill in the
bones, to claim your birth-right and establish true community
in the hearts of all dwelling in Ace-yotl, One World."
The warmth of his fingers suffused into my blood and as he spoke those
words, his eyes had become twin points of light which spread, grew and
enveloped his body, transforming him into an Egg of an intensely
brilliant luminosity. Ghost-like, the last words that I heard as a
whisper in the wind echoing in the infinite caverns of my soul were:
"Go, for you are not a fool, for these words spoken are
testimony enough that you stand firmly in your truth. Unto
thyself be true. _Nyaah!_, _Doneho_, _Wiyo_, my relative. It
is said, so it is done, according to Universal Law. Go, do your
part, and help create this world anew."
Suddenly, a gust of wind blew from the North, and dissolved my
grandfather's apparition. His spirit, wisps of White Light, stretched and
threaded away like smoke up into the Milky Way above, fading and was
gone. The chill of freezing wind woke me from my slumber, tingling and
numbing my moist, yellow bones, hinting of the close passage of spirits
in the night, bringing the knowledge that I'm not alone in the dark and
cold.
FINIS
Notes
-----
1) Baha'u'llah.
2) A High-Priest and monarch of the Toltec city of Tula (10
A.D.). Quetzalcoatl is acknowledged as a Divine Messenger or
Manifestation of God by the Native peoples. He is credited for the
flowering of Toltec civilization. His name means "The Feathered
Serpent."
3) A Seneca word meaning "true human being."
4) The Divine Prophetess and Manifestation of God for the Lakota people.
5) Founder of the Six Nations Irequios Confederacy. He lived about 500
years before the arrival of the first Europeans to the Americas.
Deganawida was the Prophet/Manifestation of God. His name means
"peace-keeper."
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:34:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Native American Baha'i Vision Quest (long) (Part 1)
Dear friends--
The following is a visionary piece of prose (narrative?) composed by a close
Native American friend a few years ago. As you will see, this is in the
best tradition of contemporary Native seers like Black Elk. Tim Whitehawk
Emmel, the author, is currently resident of a Lakota reservation
somewhere in the Dakota Black Hills. Chris, you're going to love this. Enjoy!
Regards,
Nima
p.s. For those people who were on the Bosch Mystics conference call
today, this is what I was talking about.
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
"In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spirit Song of Remembrance and Condolence
by
Tim Whitehawk Emmel (Seneca)
Albuquerque, New Mexico
November 12, 1993
His long gnarled root of a finger, the color of ochre mud,
tapped gently upon the card.
"Remember your four directions," he told me
"they are the Powers which are held in the palms
of the Master of Life. Remember what I tell you
now, for this drawing of the cards speaks of a
_Death and Rebirth_. It tells the ending of a
world and the birth of something new and holy
for all who walk upon this blue marble, the Earth.
This casting is a remembrance and a condolence for
what has been taken, destroyed and lost. It is a
thanksgiving also for the promise held in the
prophesies of our ancestors which are now being
kept."
"Look," he said, and my gaze met chips of glittering obsidian that
razored into the pulsing meat of my heart. My eyes fell from the burden
of his stare and saw hummingbird, whose feet seemed to grasp his finger
like a rose enwrapped around a bone.
"Here in the East lies a brilliance that glitters in
in the eye of Hummingbird(1), garbed in the plumage of
Quetzalcoatl(2). Hummingbird guards the entrance to the
_Fifth World_, just beyond destiny's nearest hill. The
present is a place where everyone must pass through the
valley of indecision, blind in darkness, feeling the
numbing grip of apathy, lost and alone."
"Yet you, my grandson, know what lies beyond _these
dark hours before the dawn_. Direct those who pass by
how to find the trail that shines with an ethreal light
beyond the other side. Reveal those servants of the dark
who feed like vultures upon the carrion of chaos felt by
the thoughts of a crazed humanity who are doomed to race
upon a tread mill that compells one to be locked in a
'survive, arrive, be on time, go to work, be silent'
reality. To them who are caught in this frenetic pace,
they remain unconscious that the desolation of life upon
this planet is nurtured by even the simple desire to pay
the rent, for it's a mode of thinking in search of security."
"_You who live in the 'Land of the Free' are the most
controlled experimental society, imprisoned behind bars
you can't see, in fear of having nothing, trapped by a
yearning to earn more money, guaranteeing a poverty of spirit
in your nation, jailed in a debtors prison, believing you're
free."
"Speak of what you have seen in your visions to all those
who listen of the coming Age of Light. Guide those who choose
to take heed and leave unto themselves those who hear nothing
more than just wishful thinking or of a crazy fool."
A sighing whisper is heard faintly in the night wind as the voices of
unseen spirits caresses with delicate fingers a knowing that resonated in
my moist, yellow bones. A chill reverberated my flesh in its quivering
grip and confirmed that what was said was so. His finger taps gently
again, this time upon the card in the South.
"This is the direction of your journey behind you.
It reminds one of the proper way of the _Ongwehonhwe(3)_,
the path of a true human being whose duty lies as stewards
and caretakers of the Mother of Life, our Earth. The Turtle
represents She who gives life freely and feeds all with
abundance; It is Her whom you serve. Young one, your very
flesh is made of this clod of mud called Earth. It's She who
truly owns you, for unto Her shall your bones return."
"Yet remind them they are more than creatures of mud but
also dewdrops of spirit strung like beads upon an infinite
Web of life. Teach that to sever the threads will not peril
Life Itself, but rather will just cut away their particular
strand; leaving nothing but scattered bones like the dinosaurs
long gone. Bumper stickers urging '_Save the Planet_' are
mistaken, but should rather proclaim '_Save the People!_'
instead."
"Speak to them of the true origins and history of us, the
Natives of this Turtle Island. Tell of the Three Worlds that
had existed; the present one is but the Fourth. Tell them that
some had technologies and wonders greater than this one and
even had discourse with travellers from other stars. Each were
destroyed when they put the acquisition and maintenance of
material things before the Preservation of Life, setting into
motion a counteractive force that is alive within the Earth,
which had erased all they had created by earth-quake, glacier
and flood. Grandson, it will happen again to your Fourth World,
and very soon."
"The feelings of uneasiness that underlies your mundane
routine, that gnaws at the edges of your thoughts day after
day, are not unlike the first omens of an impending
earthquake."
"_Leave these cities of steel and stone, for they shall be
brought to ruin. Cast aside your life there, for you have part
of a disease that numbs the psyche, making the heart a jagged
piece of ice. This fear of scarcity that consumes their lives
is the cause that prevents one to slow down and notice a holy
energy that permeates and binds together all things and all
life."
"Share it, give it away, these teachings you have learned,
as our Mother gives of Herself. Rest assured, be your own
master, though you may be snuffed out like a candle for living
and speaking as you do. Or they might dismiss your words as
mutterings from an ignorant savage, fit for nothing but eternal
damnation, yet time will tell to see who is the greater fool."
A grin grew slowly across my ancestors face as we turned our attention
to another direction. I looked at the card in the West and his smile grew
broader, for we knew of what Crow had to offer.
"Here in the West is the direction of the Unknown. Its
color is the ebony feathers of this Crow here, and disguises
the shadows of the dead and parts of yourself that you don't
know, that you don't know."
"Within this Realm are powers of the human spirit equal
to the gods of myth and gives one ability to shape-shift
thought and form. Crow commands you to dive deep into a
primordial ocean; explore this underworld to discover the
depths of your fears for it is the surest measure of the
strength of your courage. It is here that the torment of
pain and despair is the most honest testimony that you are
truly alive."
"Do you see that opposites are identical in nature
but only different in degree across the swinging pendulum
of life? As such, like and unlike are the same; a rhythm
that compensates for what you've defined as being gained
or lost."
"Be in the middle, a clear eye in the storm, allowing
the tempest to spin around a still place. If you remain here
long enough, your outer reality becomes nothing more than a
theater performance following a script written upon an inward
mirror. The degree of clarity in what you read from the
reflection in the glass correlates to how well your inner
closets are lit by an energy whose frequency hums like a
song of whales within atoms of a physical universe."
"This is the message implied when you say _'Mitakaye
Oyasin'_: All our relations, honoring the connection woven
by the Maker who has spun the Web of Life."
My Grandfather lit a smoke and the flashing streak of a match arced
away as a meteor slowly swallowed by the night. Tendrils wafted away from
the brimstone end of his cigarette and the burning ember cast into
infra-red relief the niches and crags of his granite face. He turned over
the next card and showed me the Eagle.
"The Eagle is the power of the Great Spirit, the
connection to the Divine that emanates as a thought from
the Mind of the Creator. Eagle is reminding you and all
to take heart and gather your courage, for the universe
is presenting an opportunity to soar above 'the mundane
levels of life upon the wings of the soul, carried by the
omnipotent breezes of the breath of the Great Spirit."
"It asks if you are willing to dance in a ceremony
that leads to flight when you are clear from fear of heights
and are willing to join in the adventure that you are
co-creating with the Divine."
"The North is the direction of prophesies and
promises made by ancestors long-passed, and the Eagle
from his place way up high can see things from the dim
edges of vision."
"Before the sails bearing Black Crosses appeared
over the Eastern horizon, our seers and prophets had
warned the People of Turtle Island of the approach of
death and destruction. We had been promised of what these
Boat People would bring if the native people here did not
put aside the means of war."
"At one time, two millenia before Christ, a great
civilization existed, and its foundation rested upon the
words of Quetzalcoatl, the Lord of the Dawn, who taught
about the Natural Laws establishing the Oneness of all
life. Like a ball of water that would spin and revolve,
these teachings were flung around, touching all the
cultures on Purple Island, moistening a seed of peace
in the hearts of the People. It sprouted a tree which
grew strong and tall, whose branches spread across two
shores and continents, creating _Ace-Yotl_, One World."
"Over time, the bonds of relation eroded, and the
People saw other nations as enemies, the message of
warning of what would happen to a shattered One World
was forgotten; and a course of action was taken, leaving
no option but the lesson of unity to be learned through
walking down the path of ashes and ruin, beginning a
history now set in stone."
"When the Boat People sailed across the Great
Water, some of us sold what was left for a pittance;
for beads and blankets, mere trinkets and baubles, for
knives and muskets, for weapons of death and war."
"In our traditions, scattered and broken, we have
the keys to knowledge that is as old as the Earth itself.
There are clues to their meaning which are hidden and
enwrapped by the different blankets of ceremony. We must
search for what has been nearly extinguished and fan the
flames quickly from the smoldering embers left, for there
is a winter storm approaching, threatening to freeze the
bone's marrow. It is the last gale before spring,
heralding a season now ending, looming upon the horizon
edge of fate."
(To be continued in Part II)
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:03:11 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: About: "Is there any remover of difficulties ..."
Yes, it gets me removed from the situation.....
At 11:17 PM 12/21/95 MEZ-1, Noorbakhsh Monzavi wrote:
> Hello dear Baha'i and non-Baha'i fellows,
>
> Does anybody know about
> ====================================================================
> the significance of saying the prayer
>
> "IS THERE ANY REMOVER OF DIFFICULTIES SAVE THEE ..." (from the Bab)
>
> five hundred (500) times?
> ====================================================================
>
> In other words,
> have the believers been said, in the past, by the Bab or Baha'ulla'h or
> Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi or The Universal house of Justice
> to say "IS THERE ANY REMOVER OF DIFFICULTIES SAVE THEE ..."
> 500 times at the time of great need, ...
>
> Any response will be appreciated.
>
> Greetings,
> Noorbakhsh.
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 18:28:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: "K. Paul Johnson"
Cc: theos-l@vnet.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: I know what you mean (Re: Torn Inside)
Dear Paul--
Thanks for the great post! Been there. I know exactly what you mean and
often find myself in the same position in regard to the perennialists I so
admire. As you know, I completely reject the neo-traditionalism of
Coomaraswamy, Guenon, Schuon, Burckhardt, Nasr et al, and I find the
underlying political thesis that these people are putting forth to be
disturbing, highly reactionary and elitist, no to mention their constant
dismissal of groups like Theosophy, Baha'i, Vivekananda, Baba lovers,
Isma'ilis and others as heterodox and therefore inauthentic traditions, as
incredibly myopic -- as if there is some kind of esoteric litmus test they
are privy to?! For instance, Rene Guenon's _Lord of the Worlds_ is, I
believe, probably the most embarrasing piece of scholarly pseudo-occult
nonesense ever written. Yet, having said that, I still like these guys a
lot and find myself agreeing with their universalism.
Regards,
Nima
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
"In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization
=END=
Sub: ... no subject ...
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 23:39:17 +0000 (MULTINET_TIMEZONE)
From: maeissin@ichange.com (Michael Eissinger)
To: nima@unm.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Perhaps it is insufficient to use references from the Guardian and the
House of Justice, as they somehow don't appear to be acceptable sources
to use when answering questions on talisman, but here's the section I
was paraphrasing. I would suggest that if there is a problem with what
the House of Justice has said, then the matter should be taken directly
to them, and perhaps the talismanians can show the Institution the error
of It's ways.
Quote follows...
In the Kitab-i-'Ahd (the Book of His Covenant) Baha'u'llah wrote
"Blessed are the rulers and the learned in Al-Baha." and referring to
this very passage the beloved Guardian wrote on 4 November 1931:
"In this holy cycle the "learned" are, on the one hand, the Hands of the
Cause of God, and, on the other, the teachers and diffusers of His
teachings who do not rank as Hands, but who have attained an eminent
position in the teaching work. As to the "rulers" they refer to the
members of the Local, National and International Houses of Justice. The
duties of each of these souls will be determined in the future."
(Translated from the Persian).
The Hands of the Cause of God, the Counselors and the members of the
Auxiliary Boards fall within the definition of the "learned" given by
the beloved Guardian. Thus they are all intimately interrelated and it
is not incorrect to refer to the three ranks collectively as one
institution.
However, each is also a separate institution in itself The Institution
of the Hands of the Cause of God was brought into existence in the time
of Baha'u'llah and when the Administrative Order was proclaimed and
formally established by 'Abdu'l-Baha in His Will, it became an auxiliary
institution of the Guardianship. The Auxiliary Boards, in their turn,
were brought into being by Shoghi Effendi as an auxiliary institution of
the Hands of the Cause.
Universal Hosue of Justice, MESSAGES FROM THE UNIVERSAL HOUSE OF JUSTICE
1968-1973, pp. 90-91
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 20:38:30 -0800
To: majordomo@ucs.indiana.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: unsubscribe for a while
unsubscribe talisman SFotos@eworld.com
Dear Talismans,
Out of town for a while.
Wishing all the dear friends the best,
Sandy Fotos
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 18:16:33 +1200
To: PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Re (2b): (Blunt) Elites and Counter-Elites/ wasRe: Techne (r
Dear Eric,
Y'see: it wasn't so difficult was it? Whatever the position, the
holder will always win my love when they are honest...
Maybe there is hope...who knows...who cares ...
Moderately,
Robert (just your average dirty rotten conservative, red-neck, oppressive
scoundrel..y'know...like the rest of the Robert Johnstons).
PS One of the two letters you cited wasn't sent to Talisman. But nevermind...
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 18:41:19 +1200
To: Juan R Cole , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: last refuge of the scoundrel
Dear Juan,
>Can someone please provide any documentation for the notion that the
>Universal House of Justice was intended by Baha'u'llah to be the arbiter
>of ancient history? I can provide lots of documentation that it was not.
The trivia of ancient history is left to historians. The main
themes/events were addressed by Baha'u'llah, 'Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian.
In upholding these statements, the House is the arbiter of ancient
history. But I don't expect you to agree.
I note you haven't yet explained away the Research Dept. letter on
Socrates... Please try sometime...
BTW, did you know that angry suits you?
Robert (dirty Baha'i ultraconservative trickster) Johnston.
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:56:09 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: notes to Bahau llah's Ode
Dear Juan et al ,
In Bahau llah's note to v. 17 which begins " I beseech Thy forgiveness,
O my God, . . .
I have a question and comment .
This note reads much like a typical ( I dont mean ordianry ) prayer that
we might find in any prayer book let alone PM.
The "I" here is , presumably Bahau llah speaking to God. ( ta da the
Maiden ) :)
What intrigues me or rather excites me is this note as prayer and the
style .
Could this note be read as Husayn Ali - Nasut - speaking to BAHAULLAH
as Lahut and at the same time be read as Baha ullah as jabarut speaking to
Bahau llah as Lahut .?
It also seems like it is Terry speaking to Bahau llah. AS I read this note
I had this strange sense that as I read I was "saying" a prayer . It took me
back at first and then i just went with it .
For a long time I have felt like most of Baha ullah's prayers can be
read as my souls prayer standing as a "witness" to the Glory of God . -
Lahut . It gets analytically confusing to mebut I think about the prologmena
to SV and "testifying in the station of the Manifestation of your Lord."
This note seems to refer to that . It is Baha u lah testifying and maybe we
show up in a cameo role witnessing to what he witnessed . One of the names
of God is The Witness . Somehow by participating in this dialogue we not
only witness the dialogue but become part of it . I can see this but not
explain it .Yet it thrills me to no end .
Is Frank Lewis around or anyone else to comment on the literary style of
all this ? I find myself transported reading these things .
Also is there a distinction between "witness" and "testify"? For
instance in the short obligatory prayer . Is it the same word translated two
ways or are there distinct spiritual stations that are being referred to?
Juan ? Nima ? Theo ? anyone ? This whole "poem is just - well I dont know
what - Its just great ! And this note . . wow . It is a form of the
Baha Maiden dialogue .. Like the old song " you o .o .o send me . . darlin
you do ye .e .e .s you do .
This is a great Christmas present for somebody !
Thanks Juan . I am so glad you are doing this .
warmest regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 01:05:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: AGhosh@uh.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re;engagement
On Thu, 21 Dec 1995 AGhosh@uh.edu wrote:
The question is what > constitutes an announcement.
We had this same question in our Baha'i deepening classes in Toronto with
a very knowledgeable Baha'i and our understanding after consulting with
him was that the period of engagement begins when the consent of the
parents have been received. This makes sense as you can get your parents'
consent and just not 'announce' you are getting married for as long as
you like, which is not in accordance with the spirit of the law.
So, my understanding is that 95 days after the parents have given their
consent is when the marriage vows should be taken. But this apparently
applies only to the Persian Baha'is right now.
Regards,
Cheshmak
=END=
[end of 12/21/95 session]
Talisman emails received 12/22/95
----------------------------------------------------------
From: Muhtadia@aol.com
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 02:31:45 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: subscribe
subscribe talisman Muhtadia@AOL.com
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 01:27:47 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Michael Eissinger
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: `ulama=administration? Not!
Dear Michael--
You still haven't answered my question, and, no, I never said or meant to
imply that the Writings of the Guardian and the House are unacceptable
on talisman, or to me even. Quite the contrary. We are all Baha'is here,
right? The last time I checked, I still was. What I said was show me
"_*where*_" it is "*_exclusivelly_*" defined "*_in the Writings of
Baha'u'llah_* that the Institution of the Learned is "*_ONLY_*" limited to
the Hands, House, ABM's, CBC's, etc. I then said that the term used by
Baha'u'llah is "`ulama-ye Baha" and gave you an Arabic dictionary-lexicon
definition of `alim and `ulama. Now, being that I'm such a "back to
Baha'u'llah fellow-traveller" (hi Terry!), please find quotations from the
Writings of the Manifestation Himself where `alim and `ulama is limited
to His august Institutions only, or are the Writings of Baha'u'llah
irrelevant in the whole scheme of things here?
See, I have a purpose in all of this. Namely, _if_ we say that the
Institution of the Learned categorically & exclusivelly denotes the
Administration, then our claim that there is no clergy in the Faith is
definitionally false and a dishonest proposition ipso facto -- making
Linda's thesis about clerics without the fancy costumes right even in
theory, let alone practice! Remember, the words used by the Manifestation
and the Center of His Covenant _in this context_ are "`alim" and "`ulama"
and not "mudeeree'at" (administratorship). This is crucial!
Best regards,
Nima (one of the counter-elitists on the list -- hi Eric!)
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
"In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 22:43:50 +1300 (NZDT)
To: Sadra , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: `ulama=administration? Not!
Planet earth to Nima, planet earth to Nima...
Re:
>
> See, I have a purpose in all of this. Namely, _if_ we say that the
>Institution of the Learned categorically & exclusivelly denotes the
>Administration,
Huh?
*****************************
"In this holy cycle the "learned" are, on the one hand, the Hands of the
Cause of God, and, on the other, the teachers and diffusers of His
teachings who do not rank as Hands, but who have attained an eminent
position in the teaching work. As to the "rulers" they refer to the
members of the Local, National and International Houses of Justice. The
duties of each of these souls will be determined in the future."
(Translated from the Persian).
********************************
Question: is it possible to simultaneously seek to subvert the integrity of
the House, cavil with the Holy Writ (etc) AND attain an eminent position
in the teaching work?
Clue: the answer is not yes.
If in doubt: try guessing.
Robert (I think therefore I ...umm?) Johnston
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 03:52:57 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Robert Johnston
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: `ulama=administration? Not!
Evidently our outspoken friend from New Zealand doesn't know how to
distinguish between the Central Figures. The last time I checked,
Baha'u'llah was still "supposed to be" THE Central Figure of this Faith and
its Manifestation -- or maybe I've been mistaken all this time??? Please
clarify this crucial matter for this confused soul. I did say the
_Writings of Baha'u'llah_, did I not, and not those of the Buddha or Lao
Tzu? Would someone please be kind enough to point out this little
"trivial" detail to our stubborn-as-a-mule friend from down-under. Many
thanks in advance!
Regards,
Nima
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
"In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:05:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: Sadra
Cc: Michael Eissinger , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: `ulama=administration? Not!
On Fri, 22 Dec 1995, Sadra wrote:
> Administration, then our claim that there is no clergy in the Faith is
> definitionally false and a dishonest proposition ipso facto -- making
> Linda's thesis about clerics without the fancy costumes right even in
> theory, let alone practice!
I think it all depends on what you mean by clergy. If this means that
there is no individual who stands between you and God, as in Catholcism
and Shi'ism, then the Baha'i Faith certainly has no clergy (ie. priests,
marja' taqlid's). I don't think, however, that this means that all
functions that were in past dispensations in the purview of
clerical classes have been eliminated from the Baha'i community.
For example, Baha'u'llah referred to Baha'i `ulama, and during his
ministry there were Baha'i teachers (mubalighin), but these individuals
were never accorded all the powers and priveleges that Shi'i `ulama had.
Richard
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:47:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: re:rulers and the learned
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Well, unfortunately neither am I a scholar, nor do I have a vast Bahai
experience. So please explain to me this simple thing (No pun intended)
Bahaullah says that there will be Kings, or at least somebody like a
king. And the election of the spiritual assembly preclude somebody like
a king. So will this "king" be a ruler or not. And when the majority of
the population of the world is Bahais, and teaching work will not be
required any more who will be the "learned"?.
Anyway I am leaving for Dallas on Sunday to help jump-start the Amatul-
Baha Crusade there for entry-by-troops. So please pray for me and pray
for Dallas.
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 95 16:49:27 MEZ-1
From: Noorbakhsh Monzavi
To: talisman@indiana.edu, bahai-faith@bcca.org
Cc: nmo@postman.hibo.no
Subject: Reading for Friday December 22, 1995
"There is a power in this Cause, a mysterious power, far far far
away from the ken of men and angels.
That invisible power is the cause of all these outward activities.
It moves the hearts.
It rends the mountains.
It administers the complicated affairs of the Cause.
It inspires the friends.
It dashes into a thosand pieces all the forces of opposition.
It creates new spiritual world.
This is the mystery of the Kingdom of God."
-'Abdu'l-Baha'-
=====================================================================
(The quote, above, is taken from a talk delivered by the Hand of the
Cause Zikrullah Khadim, in Ireland in 1981 (?).
Regards,
Noorbakhsh.
=====================================================================
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 15:48:09 PST
Subject: RE: Re (2): (Blunt) Elites and Counter-Elites/ wasRe: Techne (re: l
To: "Eric D. Pierce" , talisman@indiana.edu,
748-9178@mcimail.com, Jim Blake <0006596916@mcimail.com>
On Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:09:56 PST8PDT Eric D. Pierce wrote:
. I see no unsurmountable problem
>with honestly mapping out the full diversity of values, cultural
>characteristics, ideological foundations and so on in the
>community.
>
Dear all,
This is a very strange thread and I can't quite get what we are
arguing over, but it feels like shadow material again.
Forgive me for thinking like a psychologist, but, when arguments
start to turn personal it is a sign to me that the challenge of unity
and diversity has once again forced some irritating self-knowledge
upon us. But what is being forced in this thread?
How can we get to a meta level in this one?
Accusations of fundamentalism seem to be answering accusations of
flagrant liberality and elitism. Surely we must be dealing with one
of the Eight Fundamental Tensions of Human Community Life.
Any one have any guesses.
Philip
>>
P.S. And someone please tell me the story of the raindrops and the
dog.
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 12/21/95
Time: 15:48:10
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 95 09:20:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Back to Baha'u'llah??
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Nima jan:
You wrote:
> Now, being that I'm such a "back to Baha'u'llah
> fellow-traveller" (hi Terry!), please find quotations from the
> Writings of the Manifestation Himself where `alim and `ulama is
> limited to His august Institutions only, or are the Writings of
> Baha'u'llah irrelevant in the whole scheme of things here?
There are many things that we won't find the explanation or its
full elucidation in the Writings of Baha'u'llah, but that we must
turn to Abdu'l-Baha's or Shoghi Effendi's. This particular
subject, namely, "Learned and Rulers", as Robert and others have
pointed out, and as you well know yourself, is not available by
Baha'u'llah and it is the Guardian who provides the explanation
-- and of course there is a bit from the Master too.
The whole notion of "Back to Baha'u'llah", as I understand it,
and I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone's efforts and
views, is falsely founded.
If by this notion, we attempt to insist on "show me where
Baha'u'llah says", this will be the end of Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi
Effendi -- not to mention the entire administrative order.
Further its contrary to the explicit Writings of Baha'u'llah.
I count myself among those who insists that we need more of the
Writings of Baha'u'llah available in our literature. But I'm
also careful not to express my views in such a way that would
undermine the legitimately of Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.
Because, by Baha'u'llah's explicit command, if we find in His
Writings that He said (outwardly) X and that Master/Guardian say
no it really means Y, then we are obligated to go with Y and
that's the end of it. All these other subsequent intellectual
discussions can then be legitimate if and only if, we accept "Y",
and then through our reasoning show how indeed Y must be the
rational deduction.
In other words, in presence of Y, we can't start with X and see
where that leads us to.
I'm afraid that so often on Talisman, I see that "Back to
Baha'u'llah" theory is used to argue that Abdu'l-Baha/Guardian
did not fully understand the situation, or didn't have all the
facts, or were limiting their comments to a particular
circumstances, etc, etc, and hence we really need not be bothered
with "Y" and must implement "X", as *we* understand it.
Notice that I'm not getting involved with this thread on
"learned", "lay Baha'is", etc., which I find divisive, and will
not comment one way or other; I'm only pointing out the
limitation (and in reality, the fallacy) of insistence on "show-
me-where-Baha'u'llah-said" methodology.
Forgive me for expressing my views so directly, or using your
comments as an opportunity to share these thoughts, as I knew you
won't be upset with me knowing how much I admire you.
with much love, ahang.
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 11:45:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: AGhosh@uh.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re:rulers and the learned
Arindam:
It is clear from the Tablet of the World that Baha'u'llah envisaged
Baha'i institutions *co-existing* with civil governments, whether
monarchies or republics. `Abdu'l-Baha reaffirms this norm in *A
Traveller's Narrative.* I have a whole chapter about this in my forthcoming
book.
cheers Juan
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 11:29:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Michael Eissinger
Cc: nima@unm.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Learned in Baha
Michael: I know you from Baha'i discuss, but others on Talisman may
not. I think it would help if you introduced yourself, though probably
it is wisest to wait till after the first of the year, when people have
returned from vacation.
On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Michael Eissinger wrote:
> Perhaps it is insufficient to use references from the Guardian and the
> House of Justice, as they somehow don't appear to be acceptable sources
> to use when answering questions on talisman,
If what you mean is that on Talisman discussion cannot be silenced simply
by quoting an isolated text from the Guardian (or his secretary) or the
House, this is true. Because a final determination can only be made by
looking at *all* the evidence, and by contextualizing the texts cited,
both historically and with regard to other texts.
I used to watch with amusement as a teenager in Virginia as Southern
Baptists argued with each other. "You're ignoring Corinthians 1:4!"
"But *you* are ignoring John 3:16!"
"Romans 7:14!"
Can Baha'is please attempt to avoid seeing texts as "flat," as hard
individual nuggets that have no relationship with one another and which
cannot be situated in the historical development of the Faith?
> but here's the section I
> was paraphrasing. I would suggest that if there is a problem with what
> the House of Justice has said, then the matter should be taken directly
> to them, and perhaps the talismanians can show the Institution the error
> of It's ways.
I think the danger of this sort of rhetoric is that it implies that you
have completely understood the issue, and anyone who dares
disagree with you is disagreeing with the Universal House of Justice
itself. :-)
While this rhetorical strategy might gain points with some audiences, I
think you will find that it backfires on Talisman. You have many
valuable contributions to make to Talisman, and I would not like to see
this sort of self-righteous tone so alienate your audience that you
yourself end up feeling frustrated and leave Talisman. This has happened
before with others, and I have always regretted it when it happened. We
need a diversity of voices here.
If everyone will stop being touchy and trying to gain rhetorical points,
it will become perfectly clear that the quotes you provide *support* the
point of view advanced by Nima and myself, that the Learned in Baha
include, not only members of the appointed Institutions, but any Baha'i
with a special scholarly expertise who uses it to promote a better
understanding of the Faith and to diffuse its teachings.
> Quote follows...
>
> In the Kitab-i-'Ahd (the Book of His Covenant) Baha'u'llah wrote
> "Blessed are the rulers and the learned in Al-Baha." and referring to
> this very passage the beloved Guardian wrote on 4 November 1931:
>
> "In this holy cycle the "learned" are, on the one hand, the Hands of the
> Cause of God
No disagreement there
> , and, on the other, the teachers
the Persian here for "teachers" is *muballighin*. The group I referred
to, including Mirza Abu'l-Fadl, Muqaddas-i Khurasani, Nabil-i Akbar,
Nabil-i A`zam, and others, who had a seminary training and who were
addressed as the Learned (`ulama') in Baha, were known in Persian as
*muballighin* or teachers of the Faith. This is because at that time
a seminary training and work as a Muslim preacher before conversion to
the Faith gave these individuals great rhetorical and preaching skills.
They were thus the teachers of the Faith par excellence. The Baha'i
notables and merchants who were less eloquent or less comfortable
speaking in public would bring these Learned in Baha in to talk to their
friends and relatives. These are *among* the sorts of individuals Shoghi
Effendi was referring to as "teachers."
> and diffusers of His
> teachings who do not rank as Hands, but who have attained an eminent
> position in the teaching work.
Since intellectual production in Iran was most often thought of as
justifying and spreading the Faith, the Guardian is subsuming scholars
like `Abdu'l-Hamid Ishraq-Khavari under this rubric of "diffusers of His
teachings."
> As to the "rulers" they refer to the
> members of the Local, National and International Houses of Justice. The
> duties of each of these souls will be determined in the future."
> (Translated from the Persian).
It is plausible that Baha'u'llah used "umara' fi 'l-Baha" to refer to
elected members of houses of justice. But His favorite word for such
members was not "ruler" but "trustee," which is to say, someone who acts
as a steward for the interests of others. Baha'u'llah also made very
clear that he wanted the elective institutions to be democratic in their
methods, which the Guardian has also affirmed.
> The Hands of the Cause of God, the Counselors and the members of the
> Auxiliary Boards fall within the definition of the "learned" given by
> the beloved Guardian.
>
> Universal House of Justice, MESSAGES FROM THE UNIVERSAL HOUSE OF JUSTICE
> 1968-1973, pp. 90-91
1) That they fall within that category does not mean they exhaust the
category.
2) It is within the purview of the Universal House of Justice to
categorize Counsellors and Auxiliary Board members as "Learned in Baha",
and most of them probably are. However, this cannot be primarily what
*Baha'u'llah* meant by the word, since no Counsellors or Auxiliary board
members existed during His lifetime. Baha'u'llah meant the estate of
al-`ulama' fi' l-Baha to which I referred above, such as Mirza
Abu'l-Fadl, who in Baha'u'llah's lifetime had no institutional position
whatsoever--and yet surely cannot be excluded from the ranks of the
Learned in Baha.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 95 17:04 GMT
From: wades@cix.compulink.co.uk (Carolyn Wade)
Subject: Re: A Devoted Teacher Passes
To: 72110.2126@compuserve.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
In-Reply-To: <951221180224_72110.2126_CHR78-2@CompuServe.COM>
Dear David,
Thank you for your posting about the passing of Maury Willows.
Could you please supply their home address?
Carolyn Wade (United Kingdom)
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:56:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: `ulama=administration? Not!
Dear Nima, Michael and All
As I see it, every Baha'i is a part of the Administrative Order
of Baha'u'llah - the realization of Lincoln's statement: "of the
people, by the people, for the peopele"
One one level, Councellors, ABM's and their assistants
are a psedu-clergy - however, as Juan pointed out their
titles do not (should not) grant them special previleges in the
community: we do not kiss their hands, we do not give money
directly to them, they can not absolve anyone of sins, etc. They are
in a sense the executors of "applied Bahaism" that links the
various levels of the "Rulers" arm of the Baha'i system.
Now the "techne", seems to me, are just as vital - they
come up with possible theories from the Writings of the Faith -
the House of Justice is in a position to endorse a particular
proposal.
Whatever the dictionary definitions of ulama, Shoghi Effendi
interpreted the word to apply primarily to the appointed
branch of Baha'i Administration - however, I do not see
how this fact reduces the importance of the specialists.
For the visitors to Haifa in the next century, I think
the concept will be much clearer: if one faces the
Seat of the Universal House of Justice, on the left is
the International Teaching Centre and on the right is
the Centre for the Study of the Sacred Text.
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 11:56:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Ahang Rabbani
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Back to Baha'u'llah??
Ahang:
Since I'm about to go off on vacation, I can't get involved in a
complicated discussion like this right now.
But since I have sometimes been referenced with regard to the "back to
Baha'u'llah" idea, I should just say that I do not think your
characterization of my suggestions is accurate.
My main point is that we now have *three* corpuses of texts in the Baha'i
faith, those of Baha'u'llah, `Abdu'l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi. The
latter two were authorized Interpreters of the first. But the latter two
were also Heads of the Faith, who made ad hoc and sometimes temporary
arrangements.
My main point is only that *in determining* which of `Abdu'l-Baha's and
Shoghi Effendi's statements should be taken as ad hoc and as a temporary
measure intended for their ministry, and which should be taken as
permanently binding, *the original texts and intent of Baha'u'llah should
be taken into account.*
Thus, with regard to politics, it is very clear that Shoghi Effendi's
total ban on politics was not a forever-binding interpretation of
Baha'u'llah's principles, but a temporary and ad hoc policy that in many
ways runs contrary to Baha'u'llah's own example of defying royal
absolutism in the Ottoman Empire and Qajar Iran by calling for
parliamentary and democratic governance. Shoghi Effendi as Head of the
faith had every right to institute the policy. The question is whether
it is permanently binding, and how to determine this. One final arbiter
in my view has to be the Writings and intent of Baha'u'llah.
This suggestion means to take nothing away from the precious legacy to us
of either `Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi; it means only to suggest a
framework within which to understand and apply that legacy. Otherwise,
we are left with a situation in which a letter by the Guardian's
secretrary written in 1933 can forever over-rule the intent of the
Manifestation of God Himself.
Enjoy the vacation, everyone, and be good to one another. Jesus is our
Manifestation of God, too, and even if we do not independently celebrate
his birth, we surely should not be immune to the good cheer of this season.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 95 10:31:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Learned
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Michael Eissinger wrote (welcome to Talisman Michael!), quoting the
beloved Guardian:
> "In this holy cycle the "learned" are, on the one hand, the Hands of
> the Cause of God, and, on the other, the teachers and diffusers of
> His teachings who do not rank as Hands, but who have attained an
> eminent position in the teaching work...."
I just want to point out that this explanation actually belongs to
Baha'u'llah Himself and Shoghi Effendi is only echoing what He said.
The background is this: In the course of his travels to collect
Huququ'llah, the first Trustee of Huquq, Haj Amin, traveled to Yazd
and there met the Afnans of Yazd. (The Afnans are really two branch:
Shirazi Afnans who are descendent of the Great Uncle and the Yazdi
Afnans who are of the Lesser Uncle). Anyway, Haj Amin wrote to
Baha'u'llah of these Afnans, and of particular one of them, and
informed Him of their deeds. In a unpublished Tablet (INBA 15, p96),
Baha'u'llah states that there are some believers (including this
Afnan) who indeed rank as Hands but because of wisdom He will not
divulge their names.
It is interesting that some time later, though, He did identify one
of the Afnans (though of Shiraz branch of family) as a Hand of the
Cause, namely, Aqa Siyyid Aqa-y Afnan (a son of Aqa Mirza Aqa,
surnamed Nuru'd-Din). The Text of this Tablet is available in
"Khandan-i Afnan", by Muhammad-Ali Faizi.
The point of all this is that the Guardian's above explanation is
really based on Baha'u'llah's own Tablet.
best regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:01:46 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Learned In Baha .
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians ,
Just to add my voice to Juan's and Ahang's , the Learned in Baha is not
just the Institution of the Hands of the Cause . If it was so that only
they are learned , why do so many of that esteemed body plague me with
questions when I run courses on the Covenant . All may become learned
in the Cause of God you just may not get a title as such .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 95 11:27:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Back to Baha'u'llah approach
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Juan,
May you and your family have a wonder vacation and a very merry
Christmas. And we will miss you terribly on Talisman -- so hurry
back.
I think we are talking about two different things. You certainly
are correct that we must understand the scope of "interpretation"
better so we know its application. And your example of temporary
prohibition in political participation is a very good one. There
is no disagreement here.
What I was objecting to was an apparent dismissal of the
Guardian's specific statements. (I may have misunderstood the
thread, and as such I apologize, but I thought there was a danger
in "show-me-where-Baha'u'llah-says" method.)
But as we both have lot more to say on this subject (yours
obviously infinitely more intelligent than mine), why don't we
table it for your return back from vacation.
Have a good one, ahang.
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 12:11:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Paul Easton
To: Saman Ahmadi
Cc: talisman
Subject: re:engagement law
On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Saman Ahmadi wrote:
> As I understand it, the engagement begins when the parties
> have secured parental consent - if both parties are of
> Persian background, they must get married within 95 days.
>
That would make sense, since it would not be prudent to announce a
wedding date without having obtained parental consent first. I mailed my
copy of _Baha'i Marriage, A Fortress of Well-Being_ to my girl friend,
and I can't remember how detailed it is on this point. _Lights of
Guidence_ seems to support your (and my) understanding of this. I can
post some quotes related to the issue, if anyone needs them. Has the UHJ
put out any official compilations on Marriage?
> The dowry also now only applies when both parties
> are Persian.
>
Will this change soon? I really don't see why the 95 days law would be
such a burden for non-Persians. Personally, even as a North American, I
find this law to make perfect sense. Hopefully by the time two people
have made the decision to marry, they would have spent the time to know
one anothers characters and met each others families, etc... I've always
thought of engagement simply a public announcement and a period of
preparation for the wedding. I have NEVER been able to understand how so
many Americans could be "engaged" for several years. It seems that in
America, engagement is used as a testing period, where your
commitement to each other can remain in limbo indefinately.
> There is a big misconception, I feel, in the Baha'i
> community (at least the Persian Baha'i community) that once
> two people begin to "date", they have to get married
> within 95 days!
I am not Persian, and know little about Persian culture, but in many
countries, dating has not traditional existed - at least not in the way
we understand in the west. In China and Taiwan, even in the developed
cities and amoung the educated, match-making is still practiced and
courting is between two families, as much as it is between two
individuals. I don't think that this is bad so long as marriage is not
arranged against the consent of the bride or groom.
> More accurately, if the always lurking
> (no offense to the lurkers here) eyes of the matchmakers,
> catch two people smiling at each other, that's it - they
> will take it upon themselves to ask the parents the
> date of the wedding! (I may be exaggerating, but not
> by much).
Sure, that's how matchmakers make money. It's thier job. I still think
there is a place for a modern type of match-making. In America we call
them "marriage counselors" and I think the best time to get marriage
counseling is before there are any problems. A good marriage counselor
can help a couple explore, nurture and strengthen thier relationship and
prepare them for marriage. I see nothing wrong with parents being
involved in the process, but I'd think they'd want to help thier children
stop and think about the relationship, perhaps make them wait a while,
instead of pressuring them to jump into marriage.
> > It seems to me that it could months, or even longer, for a
> couple to know each other to the extent where they know if
> marriage is the next correct step.
>
I would also think that it could take that long for parents to get to
know their child's spouse, and I don't see why any parent would want to
push for a marriage with out getting to know the character of their
potentional daughter/son-in-law.
Yours,
_____________________________________________________________________________
Paul C. Easton
_____________________________________________________________________________
HOME || WORK
________________________________________||___________________________________
2321 Jersey Street || UW-Stevens Point
Stevens Point, WI 54481 || International Programs
|| Stevens Point, WI 54481-3897
PHONE: (715) 344-4174 || PHONE: (715) 346-2717
E-MAIL: peaston@worf.uwsp.edu || FAX: (715) 346-3591
________________________________________||___________________________________
O Lord! make us firm in Thy love and cause us to be loving toward the
whole of mankind. Confirm us in service to the world of humanity, so
that we may become the servants of Thy servants, that we may love all Thy
creatures and become compassionate to all Thy people. -`Abdu'l-Baha'
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:52:59 -0500
Message-Id: <951222135258_97197678@mail06.mail.aol.com>
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Engagement
Well, one reason that we do not enforce the 95-day engagement law in the West
is that we don't have engagements anymore. At least, we don't have them in
the Eastern sense, where a contract is signed, there is a big feast with all
the relatives dancing and exchanging expensive presents, and the commitment
cannot be broken without dire, legal consequences. It is certainly a lot
more than just publicly announcing intentions to marry--which might even be
done in childhood, in the East.
So, enforcing a 95-day limit is practically impossible, unless we come up
with a new definition of engagement for ourselves.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 13:44:43 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Back to Baha'u'llah approach
Ahang-Jan:
Being a "card-carrying" member of the Back to Baha'u'llah movement, I
would like to second Juan's observation that this has nothing at all to do
with ignoring the statements of 'Abdu'l-Baha or of the beloved Guardian. Of
course, all Baha'is must accept such statements as part of the sacred
literature of the Faith and seek to apply them as appropriate. No one has
argued that the Center of the Covenant and the Guardian of the Cause be
dismissed.
However, it is also true that we cannot ignore the statements of
Baha'u'llah himself, or dismiss the Manifestation and his stated views when
discussing a particular subject--say, who exactly are the "ulama al-Baha."
And, as I think we can all agree, the writings of the Manifestation must be
accorded primacy in any intelligent discussion. That means, that is where we
start. Of course, that is not all. If the appointed interpreters of the
Faith have said anything on the subject, of course, their words must also be
considered. But, I do not think that we can say, at any time, that their
interpretations have eclipsed the Sacred Text itself. I am sure that both
'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi would be horrified at such a suggestion.
Indeed, it was the Covenant-breakers who accused the Master of doing just
that--which he repeatedly denied.
So, I am a bit uncomfortable with your statement that if Baha'u'llah says
X, and Shoghi Effendi says that it means Y, we must simply forget X , from
that point and only talk about Y. I feel that is a misunderstanding.
I would rather suggest that from that point we have to talk about both X
and Y. And starting with X. Otherwise, we have no hope of understanding the
situation. We should start with the statement of the Manifestation,
understanding it as best we can in the time and place he said it--and taking
into account whatever else he may have said on the subject, of course. Then,
and only then, can we note that the Guardian said Y on the subject at another
time and place. Putting the two together, we may have to come up with a "Z"
for our current situation. Or, X may suit our present condition, while Y was
clearly a temporary measure. Or, most interestingly, both X and Y may have
to coexist in tension with one another.
All this is getting rather abstract, and may be of no use. But my point
is, at no time am I willing to discard any of the Sacred Text--regardless of
the interpretation of 'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. I am convinced that
their interpretations were not intended to discard the Text, but to expand
and clarify it. This is even more true for the statements and policies of
the Universal House of Justice, which of course, are not interpretations at
all. (And, by the way, when it comes to a letter from the Research
Department, I am prepared to dismiss it altogether if it is not well-founded.
But then I have received too many of them. :-) )
Warmest love to my dearest brother, Ahang,
and joyous wishes of the season to all Talismaniacs,
Tony
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 14:02:28 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Talisman discourse
OK, guys, I wasn't going to say anything, but . . .
Wrapping oneself (or one's opinions) in a quote from the Writings or a
letter from the House of Justice (the Research Department? Pulleez!) and
insisting that there is one, and only one, way to understand the matter--that
you know what that one way is, and that any one who thinks differently has a
problem with the Covenant and should take it up with the House of
Justice--well . . . such an attitude would be rather ugly under any
circumstances. But, on Talisman it simply will not do.
I, for one, do not find such arguments the least bit convincing, or even
interesting. I doubt that many Talismanians do.
So unless you are prepared to make an intelligent argument for your point
of view, I would suggest that it may be better to save it until you are.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
To: Talisman
Subject: Re: "Back to Baha'u'llah"
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 95 15:37:51 -0500
From: "William P. Collins"
-- [ From: William P. Collins * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
The use of the phrase "Back to Baha'u'llah" leaves me uncomfortable,
primarily because I think it smacks of the kind of parallels that one finds
in Christianity with "Back to the Bible" (i.e. literally understood and
interpreted). Now I know that the intent is to look at Baha'u'llah's ideas
as universal, to see some/many of the interpretations by the Master and the
Guardian as partial or time-conditioned, and to define decisions of the
House of Justice as changeable. Yet I think the use of the phrase "Back to
Baha'u'llah" and anyone's self-identification with it really contradicts a
more wholistic notion of the Baha'i Faith and community as a developing
organism that depends for its sustenance and development on the revelation,
interpretations, legislation and policy decisions that come from all these
sources.
Each has its own level of validity, and I do not think that anyone would
deny that Baha'u'llah is the source and bedrock of what we hold dear. I
myself am cautious with any tendency in myself to set my own understanding
of Baha'u'llah against the interpretation of Shoghi Effendi or a decision of
the Universal House of Justice. It is made clear in the writings what their
authority and sphere of action is, and we are given to understand that
neither the Guardian nor the House of Justice will ever overstep their
ordained spheres.
Certainly, I think there are statements by the Guardian, for instance, that
were for limited application. The question I ask myself is: Who is
authorized to define that limited application? I for one will not assume
that role, no matter what my level of knowledge or education or pious
devotion to the Manifestation, or knowledge of the Cause, because I have not
been assigned that role. I am happy to ask questions, and even debate them,
and to accept that the Center of the Cause to which all must turn will
understand the long-term development of the Faith in such a way as to
explain when and why a limited policy or procedure should change.
I would like to suggest letting the phrase "Back to Baha'u'llah" disappear,
so that it need not stand in the way of recognizing the organic quality and
deep interconnectedness of revelation, interpretation, legislation and
elucidation. None, not even Baha'u'llah's original statements, stand apart
from the multi-century development of a world community based upon those
statements.
--
Bill Collins
6819 Stoneybrooke Lane, Alexandria, VA 22306, USA
wcol@loc.gov (w) or 4705541@mcimail.com (h)
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: Re: Reading for Friday December 22, 1995
To: Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 14:33:58 MST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, bahai-faith@bcca.org, nmo@postman.hibo.no
Actually, the quote posted today is incorrectly attributed to Abdu'l-Baha.
If memory serves, it was produced by Mirza Ahmad Sohrab, a secretary of
Abdu'l-Baha who later broke the Covenant sometime after his passing.
This so-called Tablet was listed in a memorandum issued by the Research
Department as unauthentic. I stand to be corrected.
Loving regards,
stephen
> "There is a power in this Cause, a mysterious power, far far far
> away from the ken of men and angels.
>
> That invisible power is the cause of all these outward activities.
>
> It moves the hearts.
> It rends the mountains.
> It administers the complicated affairs of the Cause.
> It inspires the friends.
> It dashes into a thosand pieces all the forces of opposition.
> It creates new spiritual world.
>
> This is the mystery of the Kingdom of God."
>
> -'Abdu'l-Baha'-
> =====================================================================
>
> (The quote, above, is taken from a talk delivered by the Hand of the
> Cause Zikrullah Khadim, in Ireland in 1981 (?).
>
> Regards,
> Noorbakhsh.
> =====================================================================
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 16:02:52 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu
Subject: Reuters 12/22/95 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 95/12/22
> 1. 07:32 IRAN SAYS WORLD WILL DISREGARD NEW U.S. SANCTIONS
>Transmission date: 95/12/21
> 2. 21:45 RABIN, DESAI HEAD 1995 DEATHS
> 3. 17:47 SENATE PASSES BILL EXPANDING LIBYA, IRAN SANCTIONS
>
>
>=START= XMT: 07:32 Fri Dec 22 EXP: 07:00 Mon Dec 25
>
>
> Iran says world will disregard new U.S. sanctions
> TEHRAN, Dec 22 (Reuter) - Iran's chief judge dismissed on Friday new
>Washington sanctions on Tehran, saying other states would pursue their own
>interests rather than yield to the policy objectives of the United States.
> ``Today each country acts with open eyes and based on its own interests in
>deciding its ties with other states, especially with Iran,'' Ayatollah Mohammad
>Yazdi said at a mass Friday prayer gathering, broadcast live on Tehran radio.
> ``Today's world is not any more blindly at the disposal of a power which
>see itself as superpower,'' Yazdi told worshippers at Tehran University.
> He was referring to a bill passed by the U.S. Senate on Wednesday to
>tighten sanctions against companies which trade with Iran or Libya in the oil
>and natural gas sectors.
> ``I am really surprised at how American politicians and decision-makers
>think...Have they not seen that previous sanctions had no effects and even
>benefited us?,'' said Yazdi without elaborating.
> The United States imposed a unilateral trade and investment ban on Iran in
>June for allegedly fostering terrorism and seeking to develop nuclear weapons.
>Tehran denies both charges.
> President Bill Clinton called on other countries at the time to join the
>trade sanctions but his appeal went unheeded.
> At the end of the mass prayer a funeral ceremony was held for Mahbibi
>Hashemi, mother of Iranian President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, who died on
>Thursday, aged 90.
> Rafsanjani attended the prayer gathering wearing a traditional Moslem
>clerical brown robe, accompanied by his four sons in black clothes, witnesses
>said.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 21:45 Thu Dec 21 EXP: 21:00 Sun Dec 24
>
>
> Rabin, Desai head 1995 deaths
> London, Dec 22 (Reuter) - Following is a chronology of prominent
>international personalities who died in 1995. Ages are in brackets.
> Jan 6 - Joe Slovo, ANC's political strategist (68)
> Jan 20 - Mehdi Bazargan, former prime minister of Iran (87)
> Jan 22 - Rose Kennedy, matriarch of the Kennedy clan (104)
> Feb 2 - Fred Perry, British tennis player (85)
> Feb 4 - Patricia Highsmith, U.S. thriller writer (74)
> Feb 14 - U Nu, first post independence Burmese prime minister (87)
> March 10 - Edward Bernays, Sigmund Freud's nephew and the ``father of
>public relations'' (103)
> April 10 - Morarji Desai, former prime minister of India (99)
> April 14 - Burl Ives, U.S. actor and singer (85)
> April 20 - Milovan Djilas, former Yugoslav vice-president under Tito and
>later dissident (83)
> April 25 - Ginger Rogers, American actress best known for her dance
>routines with Fred Astaire (83)
> April 27 - Peter Wright, former British spy and author of ``Spycatcher'
>(78)
> May 18 - Elisha Cook Jnr, veteran U.S. film actor (91)
> May 21 - Les Aspin, former U.S. defence secretary (56)
> May 24 - Harold Wilson, former British prime minister (79)
> June 12 - Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, pianist (75)
> June 23 - Peter Kroger (Morris Cohen), U.S.-born spy (84)
> July 3 - Pancho Gonzales, U.S. tennis player (67)
> July 3 - Bert Hardy, British war photographer (82)
> July 17 - Juan Manuel Fangio, Argentinian motor racing champion (84)
> July 22 - Harold Larwood, English fast bowler in the notorious ``bodyline''
>series (90)
> July 27 - Miklos Rozsa, Hungarian-born composer (88)
> Aug 3 - Ida Lupino, Hollywood actress and pioneering film director (77)
> Aug 5 - Agha Hassan Abedi, founder of the failed Bank of Credit and
>Commerce International (73)
> Aug 24 - Alfred Eisenstaedt, German-born photo-journalist (96)
> Sept 8 - Erich Kunz, Austrian baritone (86)
> Sept 15 - Michio Watanabe, former Japanese foreign minister (72)
> Oct 9 - Sir Alec Douglas-Home, former British prime minister (92)
> Oct 9 - Kukrit Pramoj, former Thai prime minister (84)
> Nov 1 - Brian Lenihan, former Irish deputy prime minister (64)
> Nov 4 - Yitzhak Rabin, assassinated Israeli Prime Minister (73)
> Nov 23 - Louis Malle, French film director (63)
> Dec 6 - James Reston, New York Times reporter (86)
> Dec 15 - Lieutenant-General Manuel Gutierrez Mellado, Franco-era officer
>who played a key role in Spain's transition to democracy (83)
> Dec 20 - Dame Nita Barrow, first woman governor-general of Barbados (79)
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 17:47 Thu Dec 21 EXP: 17:00 Sun Dec 24
>
>
> Senate passes bill expanding Libya, Iran sanctions
> By Sonali Paul
> WASHINGTON, Dec 21 (Reuter) - On the eve of the seventh anniversary of the
>downing of Pan Am 103, the U.S. Senate passed a bill to expand U.S. sanctions
>against Libya along with Iran, New York Republican Sen. Alfonse D'Amato said on
>Thursday.
> The Libyan provision was added to the bill late on Wednesday by Senator
>Edward Kennedy, a Massachusetts Democrat who has repeatedly called for an
>international oil embargo to pressure Tripoli into handing over two Libyans
>charged by the United States and Britain with the bombing of Pan Am flight 103.
> All 259 people on board and 11 on the ground were killed when the jumbo jet
>flying from London to New York exploded over Lockerbie, Scotland on December
>21, 1988.
> ``The (Iran sanctions) bill provided a viable opportuntiy to attach the
>(Libyan) amendment,'' said Kennedy's spokesman, Jim Manley, adding, ``Current
>sanctions have proven ineffective.''
> President Bill Clinton, like his predecessor George Bush, has resisted
>calling for other countries to join the U.S. boycott of Libyan oil because key
>U.S. allies including Italy, Germany and Spain, rely heavily on the high
>quality Libyan crude oil.
> Although expanding sanctions against Libya short of an oil embargo might
>not harm it much, analysts said the action had more significance than the move
>against Iran.
> ``There is some chance that the sanctions in Libya will hit European
>companies more than the sanctions on Iran for the simple reason that companies
>in Libya are already there,'' said Henry Schuler, energy group chairman of the
>Washington-based Centre for Strategic and International Studies.
> In contrast, U.S. action against Iran was geared more toward preventing new
>investment there.
> Companies involved in Libya include France's Total Petroleum, Spain's
>Repsol, Italy's Agip, and Austria's OMV.
> The United States has long banned all trade with Libya. The United Nations
>also barred sales of oil refining and transportation equipment in 1993 and
>banned military equipment sales to Libya and air traffic in and out of Libya in
>1992.
> Administration officials were reluctant to talk about the Libyan provision
>in the Iran bill, which had been endorsed by the White House. But observers
>said the administration would be hard pressed to reject sanctions that included
>Libya.
> ``If the administration is willing to accept the Iranian sanctions, I don't
>see how they can say with straight face to the Pan Am families 'we're not going
>to do this to Libya,''' said Schuler.
> In the legislation approved by the Senate, Washington would penalise anyone
>who signed a contract or guaranteed a contract to develop Iran or Libya's oil
>and gas resources.
> ``Now we have a bill that says to those companies that provide investment
>in Iran's oil and natural gas sectors, 'you can trade with us, or trade with
>them,''' D'Amato said.
> The bill would make the president choose among four sanctions, including
>barring U.S. exports to sanctioned companies, banning U.S. Export-Import Bank
>assistance for exports to them, or blocking U.S. financial institutions from
>lending them more than $10 million a year.
> A sanctioned foreign financial institution could also lose its designation
>as a primary dealer in U.S. securities.
> Lawmakers targeted investments in Iran's oil industry to make it difficult
>for Tehran to fund its alleged development of nuclear weapons and support of
>terrorism. Iran denies both charges.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 18:10:01 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Re: Reading for Friday December 22, 1995
>Actually, the quote posted today is incorrectly attributed to Abdu'l-Baha.
>If memory serves, it was produced by Mirza Ahmad Sohrab, a secretary of
>Abdu'l-Baha who later broke the Covenant sometime after his passing.
(Interesting, how can we know that Mirza Ahmad Sorhab broke the conventant
after his passing? Is that possible, do we really get a second chance to
goof up? :-)
I would like to have some confirmation on the authorship of this quote. I
have frequently heard this quote attributed to Abdu'l Baha. It is used at
the beginning of all three booklets in the "Power of the Coventant" series
compiled by Dr. Jane Faily, Dr. Peter Khan and Douglas Martin in 1976, and
published by Baha'i Canada Publications. The source of the quote is given
only as "The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, pg. 70" Evidently there were a
number of books and compilations published prior to 1976 with that title.
While I'm at it, would someone be able to inform me of the actual source of
another "so called tablet" which has frequently been attributed to Abdu'l
Baha - that is the ever popular "At the gate of the garden" poster quote
that goes on about those who stand at the gate and look, those who enter,
enjoy and leave, and those who stay to tend the garden. Years ago, in my
pre-Baha'i life I encountered this piece in Mabel Logan's scrapbook and it
was attributed to "anon".
Gord.
**********************************************************
Justice is like the kingdom of God: it is not without us as a fact; it is
within us as a great yearning. George Elliot.
**********************************************************
This so-called Tablet was listed in a memorandum issued by the Research
>Department as unauthentic. I stand to be corrected.
>
>Loving regards,
>
>stephen
>
>> "There is a power in this Cause, a mysterious power, far far far
>> away from the ken of men and angels.
>>
>> That invisible power is the cause of all these outward activities.
>>
>> It moves the hearts.
>> It rends the mountains.
>> It administers the complicated affairs of the Cause.
>> It inspires the friends.
>> It dashes into a thosand pieces all the forces of opposition.
>> It creates new spiritual world.
>>
>> This is the mystery of the Kingdom of God."
>>
>> -'Abdu'l-Baha'-
>> =====================================================================
>>
>> (The quote, above, is taken from a talk delivered by the Hand of the
>> Cause Zikrullah Khadim, in Ireland in 1981 (?).
>>
>> Regards,
>> Noorbakhsh.
>> =============================================================
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 15:52:35 +1300
To: Sadra , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: `ulama=administration? Not!
Nima,
Re:
Would someone please be kind enough to point out this little
>"trivial" detail to our stubborn-as-a-mule friend from down-under. Many
>thanks in advance!
Tsk Tsk... Obviously one of the learned in Baha here.
R.
=END=
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 15:56:42 +1300
To: Juan R Cole , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Learned in Baha
Looks like Juan has promoted himself to some like a Hand of the Cause. ..
Watch out: next it will be Guardian... So much for anti-elitism...
R
=END=
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 20:50:59 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: RE. Back to Baha'u'llah.
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians.
If we go back to anything it is back to God.Unto Him we shall all
return .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 17:58:03 +1300
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Talismanic Community...
Talismanians,
I have walked with the Talismanian folk for a year now, and it is time to
figure whether I will continue or not. I must say that I have been
disappointed with the general level of Baha'i scholarship here. Many of
the scholars, once they move away from their particular worldly discipline,
seem to get utterly lost, being almost entirely unable to engage in
rational argumentation. The reason for this, it seems to me, is what has
been termed their luke-warm faith. This has been particularly obvious in
the endless disputation about the House and the Guardianship, and also
regarding the stations of 'Abdu'l-Baha and Baha'u'llah. Unless Baha'i
thinkers get past their rather puerile quarrel with these institutions
(etc), then no real result can be achieved. Without a stable foundation of
commonly held assumptions, discourse flounders. Baha'is have been
provided, gratis, with strong intellectual foundations, but here the ruling
voices have inevitably sought to build elsewhere, repeatedly asserting
their scholarly independence from the institutions of the Faith. This has
assumed grotesque forms. One writer, for instance, set himself up as loyal
opposition to the House; another wrote that 'Abdu'l-Baha was confused.
Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha have been reduced to learned gentlemen. I was
particularly disappointed with the response to the Socrates letter from the
Research Department. In this letter the Writings were cited giving clear
and obvious support to views different to those who are supposed to be
among our leading scholars. One of these scholars referred to the letter
briefly twice in an extremely partial way; another ignored it altogether.
Yet we/they had argued these very issues for months. Now: silence.
Latterly one of these thinkers has promoted himself to being one of the
learned in Baha like a Hand of the Cause, yet has gathered to himself a
bunch of heedless persons who are simultaneously proclaiming his/their
anti-elitism...
So much for the best scholarship that America can produce. To me severe
difficulties for the American community are pre-figured in this situation.
Unless this element is freed of its darkness, or eliminated from the
community altogether, I cannot but see it will severely limit the progress
of the Faith in that part of the world. The American community has been
told of ills by the House, but -- of course -- these intellectuals do not
think the House knows about that which it is talking, in this matter (as in
other matters also).
These are a number of shining/dazzling lights in the Talismanic community.
But, at the moment, their light is being eclipsed by the kind of forces of
which I write. I don't know that I can continue here. To mix with fools
is to become foolish, and blameworthy before God.. Over this holiday break
I shall ponder the matter.
Robert.
=END=
[end of 12/22/95 session]
Talisman emails received on 12/23/95
----------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 21:48:46 -0800
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Engagement
Hello all, and gee the lights of the season are truely beautiful... Been
to the Mall lately... Nobody is really happy. Did you notice???
Well all I can say about engagement is what I learned last spring in my
Marriage Seminar given by a Bahai lady. She stated that there are lots of
people now finding first-time mates later in life.. like 30's and on. And
she continued if that is the case in finally finding this *compatible
special person* after all this time, why wait several more years or even one
year more was too long, in having the wedding? There have been men in my
life who have marriage in their vocabulary, except not 95 days from the time
*we* decide marriage is the next step in the relationship. So, having them
not being *ready* I just move on.... to someone who is.
If you spend the time in the courtship in getting to know the 6 areas of
compatibility, and the actual next step is the marriage portion, (the
physical relationship) then why wait and really torture one's self. My
feeling is if you wait because you have something in the way of the actual
marriage, not the parents consent piece, then truely you are *not ready* for
marriage. (just stating what the counselor stated) For example, if you are
in College working on your PHD in something, and you find your *compatible
mate, and you have 4 more years of school... but you hold out on Marriage
until Graduation... Marriage is not placed very high in your priorties...
even though this is truely what you really want. And you have stated that
Marriage has top priorty. As always, things will take care of themselves.
Go ahead with the Marriage, and just adjust. And live Happy and Joyful.
Go do it!
One more thing for some added humor.... I live in a rather large county-King
County, with Seattle being the city, knowing most of the Bahais, numbering
close to 400 or so. And over the years Bahais at Weddings and such have
stated to me that on *MY* Wedding they will do such and such... all for a
small price, and each year that goes by that price goes down... Funny...
Well, now it is down to a price I can afford. LOL LOL...
Now there is just one minor little problem....
LOL LOL
Margreet
=END=
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 00:01:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Paul Easton
To: Saman Ahmadi
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: `ulama=administration? Not!
On Fri, 22 Dec 1995, Saman Ahmadi wrote:
>
> For the visitors to Haifa in the next century, I think
> the concept will be much clearer: if one faces the
> Seat of the Universal House of Justice, on the left is
> the International Teaching Centre and on the right is
> the Centre for the Study of the Sacred Text.
>
> regards,
> sAmAn
>
Well put. God's holy arc has more than one compartment in order to
accommodate all the peoples of the world. When the rains come pouring,
will we be climbing into that arc or slinging mud at one another?
Just a midnight thought, with love,
_____________________________________________________________________________
Paul C. Easton
_____________________________________________________________________________
HOME || WORK
________________________________________||___________________________________
2321 Jersey Street || UW-Stevens Point
Stevens Point, WI 54481 || International Programs
|| Stevens Point, WI 54481-3897
PHONE: (715) 344-4174 || PHONE: (715) 346-2717
E-MAIL: peaston@worf.uwsp.edu || FAX: (715) 346-3591
________________________________________||___________________________________
O Lord! make us firm in Thy love and cause us to be loving toward the
whole of mankind. Confirm us in service to the world of humanity, so
that we may become the servants of Thy servants, that we may love all Thy
creatures and become compassionate to all Thy people. -`Abdu'l-Baha'
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: Re: Reading for Friday December 22, 1995
To: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 23:23:30 MST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Gordon and Friends,
Gordon wrote on Dec-22-95:
> >Actually, the quote posted today is incorrectly attributed to Abdu'l-Baha.
> >If memory serves, it was produced by Mirza Ahmad Sohrab, a secretary of
> >Abdu'l-Baha who later broke the Covenant sometime after his passing.
> (Interesting, how can we know that Mirza Ahmad Sorhab broke the conventant
> after his passing? Is that possible, do we really get a second chance to
> goof up? :-)
>
> I would like to have some confirmation on the authorship of this quote. I
> have frequently heard this quote attributed to Abdu'l Baha. It is used at
> the beginning of all three booklets in the "Power of the Coventant" series
> compiled by Dr. Jane Faily, Dr. Peter Khan and Douglas Martin in 1976, and
> published by Baha'i Canada Publications. The source of the quote is given
> only as "The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, pg. 70" Evidently there were a
> number of books and compilations published prior to 1976 with that title.
Gladly. I answered at the office earlier today and don't carry all my
files with me :-)
The following is extracted from *The American Baha'i* dated Sept 27, 1992
quoting the Research Department of the House of Justice:
'"There is a power in this cause, a mysterious power, far, far beyond
the ken of men and angels. ..." This passage is from Ahmad Sohrab's
diary and should be considered as interesting material, but not as
scripture.'
The article in question lists several other commonly-circulating so-called
tablets.
> While I'm at it, would someone be able to inform me of the actual source of
> another "so called tablet" which has frequently been attributed to Abdu'l
> Baha - that is the ever popular "At the gate of the garden" poster quote
> that goes on about those who stand at the gate and look, those who enter,
> enjoy and leave, and those who stay to tend the garden. Years ago, in my
> pre-Baha'i life I encountered this piece in Mabel Logan's scrapbook and it
> was attributed to "anon".
Sorry Gordo, this tablet was not listed in the article I mentioned above.
Why don't you write the House about it?
I hope the weather in Lethbridge is a tad warmer than here!
Loving regards,
stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 01:15:49 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Robert Johnston
Cc: Juan R Cole , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Learned in Baha
On Sat, 23 Dec 1995, Robert Johnston wrote:
> Looks like Juan has promoted himself to some like a Hand of the Cause. ..
> Watch out: next it will be Guardian... So much for anti-elitism...
>
> R
Do I detect some jealousy here, perhaps?! As the saying goes, all great men
have been met with violent opposition from mediocre minds. Never where
truer words spoken...Amen
Nima
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
"In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Learned in Baha
To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 95 3:17:19 EST
Cc: jrcole@umich.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Robert Johnston writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Looks like Juan has promoted himself to some like a Hand of the Cause. ..
Watch out: next it will be Guardian... So much for anti-elitism...
______________________
RESPONSE
This is public backbiting. Darkness upon darkness.
Beyond passing judgment on another soul, which is the prerogative of
God alone, it is baseless defamation, shameless baiting, and unacceptable
behavior on Talisman.
As for the *Learned in Baha'*, it is both institutional and
individual. In His commentary on K173, the Master includes scholars as the
final category of the *Learned in Baha'*.
The statement by the Master quoted in Note 183 (Aqdas, p. 245) is,
technically, not a commentary on the Aqdas verse, but rather a gloss on a
similar verse in Baha'u'llah's *The Book of My Covenant*.
It so happens that the beloved Master did not include scholars in
this statement. But in His commentary on the Aqdas verse, He does (viz.,
[1] the Hands of the Cause of God and those under their shadow; [2] Baha'i
teachers; [3] Baha'i scholars).
Therefore it is quite conceivable that Juan is one of the *Learned
in Baha'*, in which case Baha'u'llah requires respect be shown to such an
individual. But this is not for any one of us to judge.
Considering that the Universal House of Justice has called upon
Juan to translate Baha'i sacred texts, any defamation of Juan's character
reflects somewhat poorly on the House's gift of *discernment of
spirits*--to use a Pauline term. I think the House is a better judge of
character.
Juan has given the Baha'i world two volumes of translations from
one of the *Learned in Baha'*: Mirza Abu'l-Fadl. Recently, at ABS in San
Francisco, Juan presented a paper on the Baha'i Faith and human rights.
Juan has boldly published studies on Baha'u'llah in academic journals,
which few others can.
Juan has been a pioneer in the Middle East, and now he is a pioneer in
the Academy. Is there no honor for pioneers, for translators, for
scholars, for writers? Forget honor. What of courtesy? Humility?
Others may privately judge for themselves whether or not
Baha'u'llah would consider Juan to be learned. But if Juan is not one of
the learned, God help us all.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 03:28:15 -0500 (EST)
From: "Steven D. Phelps"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: lines in the sand
Dear friends,
Recently the discussion seems to have become more polarized than ever. My
impression these past weeks is that a line has been drawn and people are
taking sides. What good can this possibly bring about? What can the
fruit of such division and discord be?
Most of us on this list are Baha'is. We love the Faith dearly, are deeply
concerned about its best interests, and are doing whatever is in our power
to promote them. If it is not within our reach at this time to reconcile
our differences, can we not, at the very least, set aside the divisive
manner in which these differences are often expressed, and proceed,
united in our love for Baha'u'llah?
=END=
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 22:22:11 +1300 (NZDT)
To: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck), talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Learned in Baha
Christopher Buck wrote:
> Darkness upon darkness.
I have no alternative but to leave these people to themselves.
Goodbye.
Robert.
=END=
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 22:29:08 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: majordomo@indiana.edu
unsubscribe talisman
=END=
From: Kavikpakak@aol.com
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 08:14:20 -0500
To: sdphelps@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: lines in the sand
Isn't all this part of the process prophesied for thousands of years? These
are the mental tests promised to us to prepare us for the coming events.
The recent talk by Peter Khan speaks of this most eloquently. When we see
all this disagreement around us, and within us, an appropriate response might
be to say that, by golly, this sure is
what we were told about and promised, and a further proper resonse would
appear to be to embrace the process of the mental tests, while realizing that
we cannot allow them to separate us from each other. The great victory of
this Faith is that it will triumph even while we are so crippled from the
spiritual sewer in which we have to live, and the time of the triumph will be
affected by our ability to recognize and overcome those toxic behaviors that
cause us to want us to separate ourselves from each other and from our most
remarkable institutions. Pakak
=END=
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 15:56:00 +0100
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Peter Loehndorf
Subject: New Book: *Brilliant Proof*
Cc: jrcole@umich.edu
Dear all,
Juan R. Cole has encouraged me to post this information on Talisman:
In 1981 Francesco Ficicchia ( =3D F.) published a book on (or better:=
against)
the Bahai Faith in one of the greatest Protestant owned publishing houses of
Germany. Its title *Baha=92ism - The World Religion of the Future? -=
History,
Teachings and Organization - A Critical Inquiry*, 475 p.
This publishing house has also been publishing a monthly newsletter on
sects, cults, and other forms of religious organizations. After World War 2
this newsletter has made several negative publications on the Faith. In this
context F. was their long awaited author on the Faith, however this time not
in form of a short newsletter but in form of a thick book, which had been
announced throughout the country a *the long awaited scientific
reference-book on the Bahai-Faith which is to set standards for the coming
decades*.
To say it in a nutshell: F=92s book is a quarry out of which virtually every
possible text negative against the Faith had been broken. In 1907 Edwin
Fis(c)her, a German-American dentist, brought the Faith to Stuttgart. In
1911 the first Ph. D. thesis was published titled *The Babi-Behai* (sic!), a
thesis which collected most of the traditional material of E. G. Browne his
partial support of the Azalis. In a foreword to this book the author
(Hermann Roemer) tells us that *this book had been written in order to stem
the growing propaganda of the Bahais*. F=92s book is based on Roemer,=
Browne,
unpublished Azali literature, and the whole bunch of literature which is
critical to the Will and Testament of the Master (Ruth White and here in
Germany Hermann Zimmer a party-liner of Wilhelm Herrigel, a prominent Bahai
at that time and founder of the Bahai Publishing Trust of Germany.)
In the early =9170 F. declared himself as a Bahai. Barely some two years=
later
he had a lengthy dispute with the Universal House which ended up with the
fact that F. had to be declared as a covenant-breaker. After some months or
so he repented and expressed his wish to belong to the Faith again. A few
weeks later in an open letter he then denounced the Members of the House as
an =91oppressive clique=92 and vowed to do everything in his powers to fight
against the Bahais whenever there is the opportunity. (The essential parts
of F=92s letters have been published in the new book for the first time.
This motivation stands in obvious contrast to the ones announced by the
Protestant publishing house i. e. his sincerity and truth-loving scholarly
approach to the subject.
Re: *scholarly approach*: F. himself is a social worker based in Zurich
(born 1948). He is not able to speak Persian, Arabic or even English. But
when you open his book you can get the impression that a scholar of world
reputation is at work. Three quarters of his bibliography contains books in
their original languages, you see tables of transliteration and
transcription. (A few Bahai boos are mentioned in the part called
*apologetical literature*). So obviously the readers and the staff of the
publishing house must have helped him a good deal.
I cannot help but calling F.=92s book *perfidious*. One example out of
literally thousands: We all know Shoghi Effendis distinction between the
different ages, i. e. the formative age, the iron age, the golden age, etc.
F. derives from the material the capture: *The iron age of Sauqi Efendi
(sic!)* only to hint that the Guardian reigned with an iron hand...
F.=92s book attacks literally everything not only The Master=92s Testament,=
the
Bahai Community itself, which outwardly appears as naive-freethinking but
inwardly is strongly regulated by *the Headquaters* (The Bahai World Centre)
denying every form of freedom as a form of opposition; but little wonder:
Had not Baha=92u=92ll=E1h himself strongly opposed personal freedom? (Cf.
Gleanings!) Etc. Etc.
The NSA of Germany decided at that time not to respond to this book. In the
meantime F.=92s book was reviewed e. g. by an Belgian Orientalist as=
*critical
but true*. Other positive reaction followed and out of a sudden F. became
the most wanted *scholar* of Baha=92ism in German speaking Europe. He has
worked for several major encyclopedia which deal with
*Religions-Wissenschaft* (The Science of Religion).
In 1988 an LSA of Berlin was denied street-teaching in their city out of the
reason that after careful study of F=92s renowned and generally respected=
book
the magistrate came to the conclusion, that the Bahai Faith had a dangerous
codex of moral behavior, their members were denied every form of democratic
expression and that the political implications of the Faith were *opposed to
the constitutional rights of the Federal Republic of Germany and therefore
represented a danger for the country*.
Three authors were found to write the =91refutatio=92 the **brilliant**=
result
of which was released some 4 weeks ago:
Udo Schaefer, Nicola Towfigh, Ulrich Gollmer: Desinformation als Methode
(Misinformation as Method, - Die Baha=92ismus-Monographie des F. Ficicchia,
Georg Olms Verlag, Hildesheim - Zurich - New York, 1995, ISBN 3-487-10041-X,
685 pages, hardcover, 75,00 DeutschMarks. ( 1 US$ =3D 1,43 DM) You can order
it via the German Bahai Publishing Trust: Bahai Verlag GmbH, Fax
+49-6192-992999 or via the Net: , which is the Email
address of the NSA-Germany. (I hope our *National Headquaters* will not put
me in jail because I took the *liberty* of announcing *their* Email-address
publicly...)
I like this book very much, not only because of Udo Schaefer's style of
writing. It not only deals with F. but also with the whole theological
critical anti-Bahai literature in Germany from the beginning on. So for the
first time we have in Germany a truly scholarly written Bahai book which
will set standards to future critical publications. It has been published in
one of Germany=92s most distinguished academic (and theological) publishing
houses, so an appropriate distribution throughout the country (and beyond)
seems to be somehow guaranteed. I personally think that the *academic
career* of Mr. F. will now come to a sudden close...
As to the publishing House of the Protestant Church which published F.=92s
Book: In the meantime the overall tone has become more friendly and it had
conceded that Mr. F. had been an overall-mistake which today they won=92t=
make
again.
Dr. Nicola Towfigh (Oriental Studies) did much of the E. G. Browne part,
Ulrich Gollmer, managing director of Bahai Verlag, did e. g. the part on the
political implications of the Bahai Faith (as some kind of a *part* of his
doctoral thesis *Weltgestaltung und Gottesreich*) and U. Schaefer did the
sections Right, Community, Teaching (mission), Ethics, theological
argumentation etc., etc. etc. A good part of it consists of new results
which have not been published hitherto. All three authors unmasked F.=92s
utterly unscholarly approach to his subject, his strinking lack of any
academic education at all, his arbitrary dealing with the bulk of
reference-material to his own ends, and his somewhat irrational *academic*
conclusions which are based upon his vowed lifelong and hateful opposition
against Haifa. Various other theological critics of the faith in Germany are
also dealt with. - Interesting also the way how F. quoted tendentiously from
Udo Schaefer=92s doctoral thesis and Schaefer=92s replies.
So if you always wanted to learn German: Now you have a good reason.
To sum it up: We now have an apologia which disqualifies some important
critics of the past, and which will demand from our future critics to deal
scholary with the faith.
Greetings:
Peter
Fax +49-2803-8209
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 95 16:41:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: LEARNED, ELITISM, ETC.
Hey, gang, do you suppose we could raise the level of this discussion a
little? It's degenerating into a rather childish "Am not! Are too!" mode...
My understanding (admittedly from the "layperson's" viewpoint), is that to
be "learned in Baha" not only involves knowing stuff but also in evincing
a certain level of spirituality, self-sacrifice, humility, etc. Frankly I'm
not seeing much of that. I subscribed to this list in search of "scholarly
discussion." Some of what's on here is fascinating (Salmani, evolution,
homosexuality, etc., and especially provisional translations and info on
historic sources), but one has to wade through a lot of crap right now to
get it (and since I'm running at only 2400bps, that takes time...)
{Thanks, Leigh
=END=
From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 11:51:58 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: sad irony & collective responsibility
Esteemed Talisman Personages,
It is with some sadness that I reflect upon recent events on this list.
There is definite irony in what has happened: the vast majority of Talisman
participants agree that freedom of expression and a diversity of voices is
vitally important to the progress of the Cause and the health of society, but
we have just succeeded in silencing a voice of persistent dissent.
I say "we" because I consider it counterproductive to fix blame for this
event, except in the most general sense of reconsidering how we all interact,
both here and elsewhere. It is more important to consider the mechanisms by
which we achieve the silencing of dissent, rather than to blame individual
persons for having been more direct instruments for the application of those
mechanisms.
Phrasing the situation in such carefully neutral words leaves me with a
distinct impression of coldness, so I will be more direct. The loss of
Robert Johnston as a Talisman participant is something we should all regret,
even those of us who may have deeply disagreed with his ideas and his way of
expressing them. It is precisely by transcending such differences and
incorporating them into our community of thought that we can most effectively
increase the growth of our general community's intellectual life. With the
exception of actual covenant-breakers and avowed enemies of the Faith, there
is no one we can afford to lightly discard, nor can we afford to take it
lightly when anyone chooses self-exile.
Even if the self-imposed exile was the inevitable result of some character
flaw in the person who has left (a theory I do not embrace in regards to
Robert Johnston, but I suppose some here might) we must still deeply examine
our interactions when this occurs.
If we who seek to champion freedom and diversity of intellectual expression
are capable of casually silencing dissent without regrets, why should we be
surprised when the community as a whole acts similarly? Only be beginning
with the causes of this problem in ourselves can we begin to tear out its
roots in the larger community.
Could this problem be spiritual in its roots? And if so, how can we
collectively heal?
I submit these questions for your earnest consideration.
Deepest regards,
Kevin Haines
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: sad irony & collective responsibility
To: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 95 13:56:20 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Keven Haines writes: 23 December 1995
___________________
With the exception of actual covenant-breakers and avowed enemies of
the Faith, there is no one we can afford to lightly discard, nor can we
afford to take it lightly when anyone chooses self-exile.
___________________
RESPONSE
Agreed.
But saying or implying that Cole or anyone else on Talisman is a
potential Covenant-Breaker (and this is not the first time this kind of
accusation has been made on Talisman) exceeds the limits of acceptable
discourse. This is not an issue of intellectual tolerance. It is a moral
issue.
I welcome Robert Johnston back online, so long as we all (myself
included) agree that questioning anyone's fidelity to the Covenant is
off-limits. I fail to see how this is merely an element of someone's
offbeat *style* of self-expression, or an issue of tolerance.
Surely Keven is not condoning the act of suggesting that Juan or
anyone else is on the verge of being a Covenant Breaker. If I am wrong in
stating that such is unacceptable behavior, I will stand corrected. But
let's at least identify the real issue at hand.
I will publicly say that I respect Robert Johnston as a fellow writer,
and that I know his heart is in the right place. (I think it is good to
give credit where credit is due, and that to praise the virtues of fellow
Baha'is [short of vacuous flattery] is a good thing). I appreciate
Robert's humor (most of the time). And Robert is a very keen *devil's
advocate* in the rhetorical sense of the term and in the finest tradition
of thrust and parry.
Before Talisman became *public*, I myself was delisted for having
violated one of the List-Rules (I was new to the Internet at that time).
So participating in a public forum like this requires that one know what
the limits are of acceptable discourse.
I apologize if my language was too strong (viz. *darkness upon
darkness*). I will forward this message to Robert. I simply ask that we
all agree that casting aspersions on any Talismanian's fidelity to the
Covenant is off-limits. Is there a consensus on this? And that praising
someone's virtues is not aggrandizing anyone. It is simply a form of
Baha'i discourse that the beloved Master encouraged. I invite Robert to
single out one or two of Juan's virtues, as I have done with respect to
Robert.
I'll close with an excerpt from one of my unpublished books, *Iodine
Tear*:
THE RELIGION OF COFFEE
The swift shadow of a bluejay slid
Into our own leaves which tumble
To quack after heels that surprise
A stallion, snatching pasture
Leagues from the soft-steel sea
As westward shrunk the bluejay's sun
Skies away from trains and wolves
That wail where dynasties of light
Fall where we breathe cedar
To become one day more wise.
The religion of coffee over campfire
Cowboy-style in creekwater baptism
Where logic topples into purple
Fire under a tin pan in a golden moment.
Coffee invents you anew
As you tip your mug, breathe steam
Precisely why you are the sky
Beside my coffee inside my eyes.
The heart of autumn is this ritual.
Tar-dark obsidian paints our faces
In mystic steam and obsidian sheen
Multiplies our smiles on the coffee vision
By hills which dive into each other
Or into a sparrohawk's eye.
Sanity, the salute of beauty.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: sad irony & collective responsibility (fwd)
To: ou004135@galadriel.otago.ac.nz
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 95 13:59:43 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Christopher Buck writes:
> From owner-talisman@indiana.edu Sat Dec 23 13:57:05 1995
> From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
> Message-Id: <9512231856.AA18075@superior>
> Subject: Re: sad irony & collective responsibility
> To: Geocitizen@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 95 13:56:20 EST
> Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
> In-Reply-To: <951223115156_78018520@emout04.mail.aol.com>; from
"Geocitizen@aol.com" at Dec 23, 95 11:51 am
> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
> Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
> Precedence: bulk
>
> Keven Haines writes: 23 December 1995
> ___________________
> With the exception of actual covenant-breakers and avowed enemies of
> the Faith, there is no one we can afford to lightly discard, nor can we
> afford to take it lightly when anyone chooses self-exile.
> ___________________
> RESPONSE
> Agreed.
>
> But saying or implying that Cole or anyone else on Talisman is a
> potential Covenant-Breaker (and this is not the first time this kind of
> accusation has been made on Talisman) exceeds the limits of acceptable
> discourse. This is not an issue of intellectual tolerance. It is a moral
> issue.
>
> I welcome Robert Johnston back online, so long as we all (myself
> included) agree that questioning anyone's fidelity to the Covenant is
> off-limits. I fail to see how this is merely an element of someone's
> offbeat *style* of self-expression, or an issue of tolerance.
>
> Surely Keven is not condoning the act of suggesting that Juan or
> anyone else is on the verge of being a Covenant Breaker. If I am wrong in
> stating that such is unacceptable behavior, I will stand corrected. But
> let's at least identify the real issue at hand.
>
> I will publicly say that I respect Robert Johnston as a fellow writer,
> and that I know his heart is in the right place. (I think it is good to
> give credit where credit is due, and that to praise the virtues of fellow
> Baha'is [short of vacuous flattery] is a good thing). I appreciate
> Robert's humor (most of the time). And Robert is a very keen *devil's
> advocate* in the rhetorical sense of the term and in the finest tradition
> of thrust and parry.
>
> Before Talisman became *public*, I myself was delisted for having
> violated one of the List-Rules (I was new to the Internet at that time).
> So participating in a public forum like this requires that one know what
> the limits are of acceptable discourse.
>
> I apologize if my language was too strong (viz. *darkness upon
> darkness*). I will forward this message to Robert. I simply ask that we
> all agree that casting aspersions on any Talismanian's fidelity to the
> Covenant is off-limits. Is there a consensus on this? And that praising
> someone's virtues is not aggrandizing anyone. It is simply a form of
> Baha'i discourse that the beloved Master encouraged. I invite Robert to
> single out one or two of Juan's virtues, as I have done with respect to
> Robert.
>
> I'll close with an excerpt from one of my unpublished books, *Iodine
> Tear*:
>
> THE RELIGION OF COFFEE
>
> The swift shadow of a bluejay slid
> Into our own leaves which tumble
> To quack after heels that surprise
> A stallion, snatching pasture
> Leagues from the soft-steel sea
> As westward shrunk the bluejay's sun
> Skies away from trains and wolves
> That wail where dynasties of light
> Fall where we breathe cedar
> To become one day more wise.
>
> The religion of coffee over campfire
> Cowboy-style in creekwater baptism
> Where logic topples into purple
> Fire under a tin pan in a golden moment.
> Coffee invents you anew
> As you tip your mug, breathe steam
> Precisely why you are the sky
> Beside my coffee inside my eyes.
>
> The heart of autumn is this ritual.
> Tar-dark obsidian paints our faces
> In mystic steam and obsidian sheen
> Multiplies our smiles on the coffee vision
> By hills which dive into each other
> Or into a sparrohawk's eye.
> Sanity, the salute of beauty.
>
> -- Christopher Buck
>
> **********************************************************************
> * * * * * *
> * * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
> * * * Carleton University * * *
> * * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
> * * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
> * * * * * *
> **********************************************************************
>
>
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 14:01:26 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Gone for a few days
I will have to be off Talisman for a few days, as the family will be out of
town.
Everybody be good. And try not to say anything TOO interesting before I get
back.
:-)
Tony
=END=
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 13:36:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: sad irony
It seems to me, in the eyes of Robert J., charaterizing
Abdul Baha as confused is on par with accusing a person
of having luke-warm faith - name-calling begetts name-calling.
I for one think that if we can swallow one, we should be able to
swallow the other. Ofcourse that would mean that we are a
heck of a way from Baha'i discourse.
BTW where were protests when Juan and Robert Stockman were
"just talking" [my parent's euphumism(sp) ;-)] ?
If this is an open forum, then it is an open forum. That would
mean that my own frequent verbal indescretions should be tolerated.
Now if we want something else, that's a whole other story.
it's probably warmer in Cambridge Bay right now,
sAmAn
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 95 10:52:02 PST
Subject: Re: Learned in Baha
To: Sadra , talisman@indiana.edu,
Robert Johnston
On Sat, 23 Dec 1995 01:15:49 -0700 (MST) Sadra wrote:
>Do I detect some jealousy here, perhaps?! As the saying goes, all
great men
>have been met with violent opposition from mediocre minds. Never
where
>truer words spoken...Amen
>
>Nima
>---
Nima,
You imply that Robert has a mediocre mind. I think this is no more
acceptable than Robert's attacks on Juan and others of us.
I agree with you that I have great difficulty accepting the style of
Robert's argument -- and I would add that I have a lot of trouble
discerning the substance because, to me, so much of what he says is
tone and tone only.
But still, it is some kind of a loss for us to have Robert withdraw.
And I have enough respect for his thinking to wonder what it was that
he was trying to say to us.
What was the deeper current of this thread?
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 12/23/95
Time: 10:52:02
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 95 11:29 GMT+1300
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alison & Steve Marshall
Subject: justice - was learned in Baha
> Surely Keven is not condoning the act of suggesting that Juan or
> anyone else is on the verge of being a Covenant Breaker. If I am wrong in
> stating that such is unacceptable behavior, I will stand corrected. But
> let's at least identify the real issue at hand.
I agree with Christopher Buck that we need to sort out what the issue is. As
I see it, it was a clear violation of the list rule that prohibits ad
hominem attacks. Juan explained about the historical context of the concept
of 'learned in Baha', and Robert accused Juan of harbouring a desire to be a
Hand of the Cause. Those are the facts.
Christopher suggested that this is an issue of morality. I agree, but would
go further and say that this is an issue of justice. One person has argued
that name-calling promotes name-calling. But I believe that this is
irrelevant. Does Robert have the defence of provoation available to him?
Even if he did, there was no provocation.
What Robert said suggests to me that he believes that Juan does not deserve
to be protected by the list rules because Juan's status as regards the
covenant is considered, by Robert, to be dubious. This is fallacious.
Some might put forward what I will call the 'argument of unity': we should
all just forgive and forget and be unified. I have seen this argument often
used to divert attention away from an injustice perpetrated by one Baha'i to
another. It is often used in situations of family violence. But this ignores
that the fact Baha'u'llah states that unity is dependent on justice. "The
purpose of justice is the appearance of unity among men". It also ignores
Baha'u'llah's exhortation that our unity should not be one that leads to
disunity (Tablets of Baha'u'llah p167).
I believe that Baha'is often get the justice, unity and covenant issues
mixed up. What is often an issue of justice is slanted by issues of who is
seen to be deserving of justice in light of their position as regards the
covenant, and also by idealistic notions of unity.
I conclude that, based on the principle that unity on this list will be
promoted by clear and just action, Robert should be removed from the list.
It is not relevant that he has voluntarily done so for a time.
Alison
--------------------------------------------------------------
Alison and Steve Marshall
Email: forumbahai@es.co.nz
90 Blacks Road, Opoho, Dunedin/Otepoti, Aotearoa/New Zealand
--------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 18:03:14 -0500
To: nima@unm.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re:Native Amer: Bahai Vision
Nima :
Glad you posted Tims poem /story .. I like it I wonder how long it
would take to read / recite it at the Bosch conference . I will time it and
see . If it is too long the audience will probably get lost . It is poetic
prose storytelling which lends itself to a reading better than does a loooong
piece of straight poetry . The narrative allows peoples attention to be
refocused on the theme/story . I do like it ! Then my mytho-poetic side gets
to go rummaging around all the symbol/ images created in the poem . A I say
in the Baha Maiden Dialogue piece quoting Reat and Perry from their _A World
Theology _ a symbol is that which " .. points beyond itself to a larger
reality in which it participates and whose larger dimensions
it makes known to us . " Please convey my appreciation to your friend Tim
and tell him it has provided me with a rich set of symbols to use exploring
the truth of Bahau llahs statement from the Tablet of Vision " . .that thou
mayest thereby behold the luminous world within this gloomy world , know of a
certainty that manifold are the worlds We do possess within this world . ."
Then I long for the day when this world will be arranged it such a
fashion that every soul will have the opportunity to experience that grace
as a part of normal waking consciouness. As far as I am concerned that is an
Irfan Republic . And that is why I think Baha u llah suffered exile and
imprisonment for forty years .
much love to you and Tim ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 13:48:25 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Outrage..
Talismans,
While I did send an unsubscribe message to majordomo it seems I am still
here, but if I am not, I know this will pass through the veil and reach you
all...
Coming in today to download my email, my intuition told me that there was
outrage on Talisman over what has happened...and yes, there is. Alison's
letter represents the extremity of that outrage...
I wish to explain why I said what I did. I do not think that what I am
about to say will be understood. But here goes.
The things that have disturbed me most in the Talismanic community most
have been the prepetual quarrel with the House and the Guardianship (etc),
and the desire to separate scholarship from the constaints of religion.
These are related, and tell of a Faustian intellectual disposition. In the
context of the the Faith, the construction of intellectual worlds apart
from religion entails a kind of co-partnership with God, of which
Baha'u'llah Wrote. Now co-partnership with God is simply this: the
empowerment of my will and the denial of Thy Will. Covenant Breaking is
the extreme form of this, but every day each of us puts our will before
that of God, to some extent. This is a fact: Baha'u'llah says we are all
sinners.
Now to the apparently extremely offensive letter I wrote. Yes it was
indelicate and -- from a purist viewpoint -- wrong. That I have found
myself saying such such things has been the reason for my deciding to quit
Talisman. But the essential points that I wished to make still hold true
for me. These points are, (1) It ill-becomes Baha'i particular Baha'i
scholars to appropriate too themselves the station of "the learned in
Baha". Sure, some scholars may be, but not all, surely. And who is a
Baha'i scholar anyway? I think it is best that such stations be accorded
not by one's self or by one's peers, but ...well...by the House perhaps,
but ultimately by Baha'u'llah and God. The Writings make it clear that all
genuine human stations are stations of servitude, and not of personal
exaltation. (2) In the context of a policy of separation of scholarship
from religion and of the appropriation of stations of distinction, there is
-- logically -- progressive movement towards ever darker manifestations
of co-partnership with God. This was the trend which I wished to indicate.
Really, I was being rhetorical and provocative in saying that Juan would
next be after the Guardianship. In my heart, I feel that this cannot be
literally true. But, I failed to make this clear enough for those who do
not share my colourful imagination, so I guess I owe an apology to anyone
who has been unjustly offended by my words. But it would be unfortunate if
the moderate essence of what I was attempting to say was lost as the
enraged mob clamoured for my neck.
And before I finish, let me say something this enraged mob. Where were
they when the House and Guardiansip and 'Abdu'l-Baha and Baha'u'llah
Himself were being rudely challenged? This is my lasting and enduring
pain. A pain which I know I shall carry into the realm of eternity.. I
have begged God to allow me to leave Talisman, because to the presence of
these things.. But my heart would not let me... Every day I poured out the
contents of my mind and heart into Talisman. I wrote to the House
regarding American Manifestations and Socrates and was massed scholars who
had argued tooth and nail against the positions, then retreated into
complete silence. One or two raised their voices again. One loundly
disagreed with the information, but when challenged by myself, he again
retreated into silence. Another twice attempted to obscure the intent of
the letter...
I have endured real and unjust personal vilification here. Especially,
from Sonja, but also from Terry, Nima and Chris. After the letters from
the Research Dept. -- after it was shown that Talisman was wearing no
clothes -- it was only a matter of time before the forces of perversity
would encircle me and and seek to slay me with their envious swords. Now
we have reached this situation. I am departing and there's Alison throwing
rocks at my back. How could not not but bring her endless and enduring
shame? What has she contributed? So little. So very little. And now
this. May God forgive her, and the others, and me also.
Robert.
=END=
From: michelem@s2.sonnet.com
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 19:53:09 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: intro,lay Bahai's and others.
Hello Talismanians,
After lurking for early two weeks, I have decided to introduce myself.
My name is Michelle. I occasionally contribute to the soc.religion.bahai
newsgroup, and boy was I surprised to see myself quoted here even before I
joined Talisman!
I am not a Baha'i, but I do believe in Baha'u'llah. I have some problems
with the way the Faith is being administered. I'm seeing the development of
a clergy--the Counsellors--you might call them something else, but from my
point of view, they're a clergy. I also see the UHJ interpreting scripture,
which was a duty reserved for the Guardian. If the Administration cannot
stay within the bounds set by the writings of Baha'u'llah and the Guardians,
how can they expect to be infallible?
The argument about "Lay Baha'i" vs. "learned Baha'i" seems rather silly and
I'm surprised how vitriolic it became. No amount of book learning can give
you spiritual understanding, and neither can titles bestowed upon you by
institutions. But taking the time and effort to learn a language well
enough to translate is hard work, and gives a person new viewpoints on the
world that they might not have had otherwise. Baha'u'llah said that work is
a form of prayer. People that work for no pay and no perks are engaging in
a higher form of prayer, IHMO, than people who do so just for money. We
should respect people who undertake such work. That does not mean that they
understand the scriptures better than someone else--I'm not sure than any of
the "elite" in the UHJ or the Counsellors can either.
I think that before accusations of Covenant breaking are made, that we
should remember that Shoghi said that Covenant breakers are spiritually
diseased, and only the Guardian can determine those people who are in that
spiritually diseased condition. I certainly don't think the average Joe on
the street has any right to even hint that someone else is a Covenant
breaker, just because his understanding of the Faith is at a different level
than someone else's (and who is to say whose understanding is higher?)
Michelle
=END=
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 17:29:33 +1300 (NZDT)
To: Alison & Steve Marshall , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: justice - was learned in Baha
A final comment...
I have always welcomed well-reasoned arguments wherever I have found them.
Unfortunately, such arguments were rare on Talisman, for reasons I have
already indicated. Alison's letter is in instance of very poor reasoning.
In her letter she gave my offence:
"I agree with Christopher Buck that we need to sort out what the issue is. As
I see it, it was a clear violation of the list rule that prohibits ad
hominem attacks."
After giving reasons for my need for punishment she suggested a sentence.
The sentence went:
"I conclude that, based on the principle that unity on this list will be
promoted by clear and just action, Robert should be removed from the list.
It is not relevant that he has voluntarily done so for a time."
I say this was not a well-reasoned argument because it displays obvious
partiality and prejudice -- this dispite the fact that I have,for no
personal gain, helped Steve and Alison out innumerable times, particularly
in relation to their now defunct commercial publication "Forum". The
partiality is apparent in the fact that she made no similar pronouncement
when her husband Steve launched an ad hominem attack on me on Talisman, or
when other attacks (See sample below. The first two are obvious, the
second is covert) were made. Given the obvious partiality, Alison's
accusation that I am *the cause of disunity* on Talisman is not sustained
by her letter.
Another element in the letter warrants attention. Alison wrote:
>I agree with Christopher Buck that we need to sort out what the issue is. As
>I see it, it was a clear violation of the list rule that prohibits ad
>hominem attacks. Juan explained about the historical context of the concept
>of 'learned in Baha', and Robert accused Juan of harbouring a desire to be a
>Hand of the Cause. Those are the facts.
What I actually did was -- in my own way -- question Juan's statement that
Baha'i scholars (presumably all) were to be included among the learned in
Baha. There was more to the situation than the above quotation suggests.
Of course, the best instance that we have of the learned in Baha are the
Hands. Juan himself was placing scholars on the same level as Hands. It
was not something that I dreamed up.
Alison might well re-title the letter "justice". God overlooks no
injustice, no even when it is administered by the hands of former friends.
I feel very strongly that I have been unjustly treated. This will take a
very long time to heal, if ever.
That's it,
Robert.
PS: I have never called anyone a Covenant Breaker. If certain persons wish
to suggest that I have, then that is up to them. If I have something to
say, I say it
From Eric Pierce:
>I hope it is obvious that the main point of my original message
>was to condemn Robert J.'s (of NZ) attempt at labeling John L,
>Juan, Nima and Terry as elitists. For better or worse, let's
>be honest, they would be more properly labeled as counter-elitists
>(and I hope damn proud of it!). I see no unsurmountable problem
>with honestly mapping out the full diversity of values, cultural
>characteristics, ideological foundations and so on in the
>community.
>
>I just can't bring myself to tolerate the establishmentarian,
>conformist, mainstream elitist paradigm that has sapped the
>vitality of the community and permitted the acceptance of an
>atmosphere in which the fundamentalist and dominant elements of
>the community are allowed to rampage around as if they have a
>right to "own" the "right way" of being Baha'i and bully everybody
>else into submission.
>
>It seems inevitable that the "bad karma" accumulated during the
>purges of progressive elements in the (american) community in
>the 1920's and 1930's would be revisited on the community in the
>wake of the generally unsuccessful integration of the values of
>the influx of liberal/countercultural youth into the community
>during the 60's and 70's. The lack of subtlety that characterised
>the process of thought control within the community of that
>period should clearly have been understood to neccessarily give
>rise to some sort of rebellion, or at least a long series of
>skirmishes, between the progressive and traditionalist elements
>in the community. The mirroring of the tension in the general
>society over control of values between elites and counter-elites
>in the american Baha'i community doesn't seem to follow the model
>that Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian tried to get us to build the
>community and administration around. The trick is, how to build
>trust. I don't see it happening by an insistence on the superiority
>of a majority conformist agenda.
>
>If the Robert Johnston's of the world want to deplore the way some
>of the intellectual dissidents in the community wrap themselves in
>the cloak of scholarship and also want to yammer about the supposed
>counter-elitist tendencies of the dissidents, then they ought to
>shut up when it is pointed out that the majority from the beginning
>has sought to wrap itself in the supposedly legitimizing reverse
>cloak of majority opinion, orthodoxy and (gasp, I'm saying it!)
>administrative authority.
>
From Nima Hazini:
>Evidently our outspoken friend from New Zealand doesn't know how to
>distinguish between the Central Figures. The last time I checked,
>Baha'u'llah was still "supposed to be" THE Central Figure of this Faith and
>its Manifestation -- or maybe I've been mistaken all this time??? Please
>clarify this crucial matter for this confused soul. I did say the
>_Writings of Baha'u'llah_, did I not, and not those of the Buddha or Lao
>Tzu? Would someone please be kind enough to point out this little
>"trivial" detail to our stubborn-as-a-mule friend from down-under. Many
>thanks in advance!
From Juan Cole:
>It is, of course, by now an old and well-tried dirty trick of Baha'i
>ultraconservatives to identify their position with that of the Head of
>the Faith and to accuse anyone who departs from literalism of
>disloyalty to the Institutions. Also to constantly mutter `Judas' and
>something about a covenant in the presence of any Baha'i with whom they
>disagree.
>
>Ben Johnson said it well on April 7, 1775: "Patriotism is the last
>refuge of a scoundrel." Likewise Baha'i ultramontanism.
>
>Can someone please provide any documentation for the notion that the
>Universal House of Justice was intended by Baha'u'llah to be the arbiter
>of ancient history? I can provide lots of documentation that it was not.
=END=
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 21:46:00 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Re: "Scholarship"
On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Juan R Cole wrote:
> Baha'i-Wissenschaft in this sense must be distinguished from technical,
> applied fields such as Baha'i agriculture or Baha'i radio management, which
> are in themselves of the utmost importance, but contain a practical
> element involving doing more than writing books.
>
> Baha'i-Wissenschaft must also be distinguished from non-academic study of
> the Faith, which *is not* less valuable, and of course constitutes the
> vast majority of the study of the Faith that actually occurs.
>
> Is there any real reason, however, that these three approaches to Baha'i
> studies cannot co-exist, flourish, and enrich each other?
I see this analagous to science and mathematics, where some engage in the
study of "pure" mathematics and some in applied sciences, but none could
do without the other.
=END=
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 21:47:40 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: AGhosh@uh.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re:engagement law
On Wed, 20 Dec 1995 AGhosh@uh.edu wrote:
> I also would like to know what exactly constitutes an engagement, I am
> afraid again it would be national policy.
I've always thought of it as when you asked for parental consent. Before
that time you don't know if you can marry; when you've asked the folks,
you're serious.
=END=
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 22:43:49 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Robert Johnston
Cc: Talisman
Subject: unsubscribing
By way of information and not of encouragement, to unsubscribe from
Talisman -- folks please take note so that John doesn't need to do it
manually for us
send the message:
unsubscribe talisman
to:
majordomo@majordomo.indiana.edu
I think that's the ticket.
Love
Brent
=END=
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 22:45:13 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: michelem@s2.sonnet.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: House interpreting the Text
Michelle, please give an example of where you feel that the House has
interpreted the sacred Text.
Thanks
Brent
=END=
[end of 12/23/95 session]
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