Talisman Bahai Archives Dec. 19-20, 1995
Dec. 19-20, 1995
T951219
Talisman emails received 12/19/95
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Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:41:51 -0800
From: snavidi@ix.netcom.com (salar navidi )
Subject: talisman FTP or Web site
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I have seen some print out of materials discussed at
talisman@indiana.edu. I have not been able to find this on the net
please send me an Email at this address or at Snavidi@TSC.hh.avnet.com.
My name is salar navidi. I am a Baha'i in phoenix. My home phone
number is 602 492 0236. My work number is 602 414 7509. I am very
interested in reading contributed materials.
thanks
salar navidi
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 23:42:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: "Mark A. Foster"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Lay Baha`is?
Mark: You were disturbed because you misunderstood. The distinction
between the clerics and the laity is not the one I was drawing. In
secular, American society, the word "lay" has now taken on other
connotations.
In academic parlance a "lay" reader is one who is not an academic expert
(usually, not a Ph.D.) in the subject of the book. "Lay" readers are
contrasted in the book trade with professional experts.
So, if I tell an editor I have written a book on Middle Eastern history,
the editor will want to know if the audience for the book is other
specialists (i.e. other academics, in which case the press run will be
500) or if the audience is the "lay reader" (everyone else, in which case
the press run will be rather larger).
With regard to religion as a spiritual practice, all Baha'is are equal
and all have valuable insights into the spiritual life. I have said this
so many times that it is hard for me to believe you could so
misunderstand me. But if I wanted to have an expert evaluation of the
import of the teachings about economics in the Writings, I myself would
prefer to hear from someone with an academic training in economics.
Mark, I am sure you are aware of this *secular* connotation of the
terminology I was employing. So I am taken aback by the visceral
character of your remarks. I'm also confused as to how you think I could
categorize myself as a "professional" Baha'i, since I hold no post in the
Faith, have never drawn a salary for my services to it, and have even
foregone most of the royalties my books and translations have earned. I'm
simply saying that I promise not to tell the electrical engineers how to
wire houses and they should please not tell me how to write history.
To the extent that academic Babi and Baha'i history exists as a field,
it is a very small one; most of its specialist academic practitioners are
or have been on Talisman. But there is a difference between doing
history in a professional, academic manner, employing the original
languages (which takes years of study, even for native speakers),
weighting sources, contextualizing events and ideas, and so forth--there
is a difference between that and an Anglophone engineer reading the
Dawnbreakers on a Saturday afternoon or someone writing up a pastiche of
secondary sources for a Baha'i little magazine. The latter activities
are praiseworthy too, but they constitute a different language game.
So, I agree that there are not lay Baha'is and professional Baha'is
(though some people do make a career in Baha'i administration). But
there is such a thing as professional history of the Baha'i religion and lay
Baha'i (and non-Baha'i) readers of it. And I think it is rash for someone
who has not spent the time to learn the languages and do the graduate study
necessary to enter the field to tell someone who has how to go about his
or her business.
Steve Scholl posted a very nice piece months ago about how academic
scholarship is like plumbing. Other plumbers are not impressed that you
know plumbing. They might watch your technique, see how careful you are,
talk about sawhorse joints with you. But we have a religion in which
non-plumbers are constantly telling the plumbers how they have to fix the
pipes, and as a result the religion has sprung enormous numbers of leaks
that in my view have begun to undermine the foundation. There is no
point calling this point of view elitist. Either you know plumbing or
you do not. If you do not, stand aside and let a craftsman pursue the craft.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:03:50 +1300 (NZDT)
To: Dave10018@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
Dear Dave,
I think it was the teacher who strapped me who introduced me to
the Lindsay poem. Years letter I was told his nickname was Bubblegum. Hey
Buddy: am I in therapy here, and if so, are you charging?
Robert.
PS I think Juan made a pretty good job of "Re: Lay Baha'is"...
>Robert! You went to a horrible grade school and were terribly mistreated.
>Really I grieve for you, but you must struggle against such "education," and
>not try to impose it on us here. As I recall at the same school where you and
>your friend were given such cruel corporal punishment, you were made to
>memorize Vachel Lindsay's rhythmic but incredibly racist poem "The Congo(a
>study of the Negro Race)".
>
>with concern,
>
>dave taylor
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 01:23:33 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Inter-Faith Dialogue pt.3
Dear Friends ,
What follows is the second part of my napkin presentation at the
Perkins restaurant to our Jewish friends last week.
Part one had to do with the unity of religions
Part do had to do with the political implications of the spiritual unity
paradigm of Bahau lah as I understand it .
In his Commentary on the Islamic Hadith "I Was a Hidden Treasure" , the
then teen-age, Abdul Baha elaborates on a number of themes from the meaning
of "Hidden" , to Knowledge , to Love , and Created .
In the section on love Abdul Baha says that "spiritual love and divine
attraction " is one of four forms . These forms follow in a manner familiar
to Muslim philosphers . Interestingly he adds a ffifth which is most
fascinating that he describes as a "stage of the station" of the first
station which is the "Essence of Beauty witnessing its own Beauty within its
essence ." This the primal love which gives birth to all forms or stations
of love . This fifth 'stage of a station' Abdul Baha describes as " that
spiritual attraction and that ecstatic love of the lovers for the Beauty of
the Beatiful One within their own selves."
This has ethical - political implications as we will see in a moment .
He says that in this station " he sees all the divine Names appearing from
the dawning - place ( everyone recognize that concept :). ) of his name .
He goes on to say that " in the being of everyone of the mirrors of the
Attributes of the Absolute . . one of the Names of the Absolute is Lord over
the rest of the Names. The True One hath manifested every created thing
through one of His Names." . ". one of the divine Names is manifested most
strongly and appears most intensely in each person. Thus his being originates
from this Name and returns unto it."
The idea that each person has a "Name" which is its Lord , the source
of its being and path by which it returns to God has a number of
implications . The very notion of Lordship connotes a relationship and
carries with it a sense of "sovereignity. " In light of Baha u llahs range
of thought we might ask what is the social form which can best support and
protect this sovereign relationship of the individuated soul and its Lord ?
This "Name" is its origin and importantly the means by which it returns to
its source .
This is , in historical terms , a departure from more traditional
soteriological or salvation thought . For most of human history certain
sexes, classes, races were presumed to be lacking in this sovereign
relationship to God in general, let alone a specialized relationship
particular to that souls very being. If every human being has this
relationship then certain means need to apear in the socio- political world
to develope this relationship from its "Hidden " to its manifest state that
the "Desire " of God to be known - the very purpose of creation - can be
realized.
The socio political form which Baha u llah legitimizes as suited to this
realization of the animating purpose of creation within each person is
parliamentary democracy . It is to be characterized by what baha u llah
called "consultation" . Interestingly Bahau lahs mid 19th century decriptions
of consultation is similar to what the late 20th century philosopher Jurgen
Habermas has calls "communicative rationality" and what Carol Gilligan has
describes as an "ethic of care. " We can find this most emphatically stated
in His letter to Queen Victoria in the late 1860s where he praises democracy
and describes the purposes and characteristics of those who govern in
consultative democracies . They are , in fact very similar to the manner in
which he describes the form of governance for His religious community . Like
Habermas Baha ullah critizes the "hegmonic " control of human life by
despotic political forms and the the subserviance of the spiritual to the
material the "pagentry of wealth and riches"or what we might call the tyranny
of the market place .
An example of the radical democracy of Baha u lah is appropriate at
this time of year and has been a concern of Jewish people for some time. This
has to do with the public support of Christian holydays , that is Christmas .
In the Faith of Bah u llah certain days are considered religious holydays
on which work is to be suspended . This is true of all religious communities
. Since the primary acts of life have to do with spirituality i would suggest
the following possibility . The first amendment to the constitution of the
Uniterd states prevents the establishment of religion ; a church state . The
establishment clause is well known . What is less talked about is the "free
exercise clause." Freedom of religion is not the same thing as freedom from
religion . I would suggest that one of the implications of Baha u llahs
unity paradigm is that in a democracy each religious community has the
opportunity to excerise the religious liberety imlplied by the free exercise
clause ; that is free to exercise their religion free from political tyranny
as well as free from economic tyranny . In other worhs let us suppose that
Hannukah ,as an example , were a recognized Holyday of the Jewish community
and that work was , by law , suspended on that day as it is on Christmas .
There is a civil purpose to be realized here in that the observance of
religious holydays gives meaning to the free excercise of religion clause of
the first amendment . The impediment to this is not political in a democracy
which assumes the unity of religions . The impediment is the tyranny of the
market place.
It is significant in that from its inception Baha u llah , as Prophet,
promulgates a religion that is meant to be both democratic, internally, as
well as advocating a forn of civil governance that has come to be known as
consultative or parliamentary democracy . For Baha u lah to legitimize such a
form of governing as consistent with the Wil of God assumes an acceptance of
what we now call the seperation of church and state . It does not imply the
seperation of the individual and social "recognition" of the spiritual in
human life .
Further , Baha u llah , by grounding the "being " of every human in
one of the "names " of God , as its source and point of return provides a
deeper basis for human rights. Human rights are an outgrowth of the "Desire "
of God to be known , again the very purpose of creation . To deny any human
being the possibility to develop its potential - that is manifest the "name"
that is its Lord constitutes a human rights violation that it is a form of
blasphemy . It denies the underlying desire of God to be known. This is why
I have argued that the Faith of Baha u llah cannot help but be active
supporters of human rights . This support does not nor can not end with only
a laisse - faire attitude once forms of overt oppression are overcome . There
is an active responsibility to participate in the creation of a just society
which makes possible the realization of each souls desire to manifest its
Lord.
True sovereignity then rests in the people , if you will , and their
relationship to God . This sovereignty is not mediated by other individuals
or institutions . It is assisted , supported , protected and safeguarded by
institutions , as Baha u llah would say , in their capacity as "Trustees" .
And since people make up institutions they are to act as servants in relation
to one another not as Lord . The soverignity belongs to God and the
relationship each soul has to the form of its Lord .
This shift in sovereignity is fairly radical in that it locates such
"sovereignity in the people and relationship to God and grounds it in the
very purpose of creation. We are on this plane of existence citizens not
subjects , This is perhaps best exemplified by Baha u lahs statement " The
earth is but one country and mankind its citizens ." One of the reasons this
shifting of sovereignty is significant is that it addresses the potential of
tryanny by the majority . The soverign relationship does not derive from the
"people " as a body ; it derives from our relationship to our Lord . All
governors as "Trustees " whether civil or religious are to "protect and
safeguard " this source of all existing relationships - the souls
relationship to its Lord and see that the opporunity exists for each soul to
fulfill the desire of God " to be known ." The form of this protection and
safeguarding of each human being and the "recognition " of it Lord is what I
at times refer to as an Irfan Republic.
The Liberty and freedom of conscience impied by this perception of
reality elaborated upon by Baha u llah and Abdul Baha carries with it a good
deal of individual responsiblity . Societies have an obligation to create the
conditions in which the" Lord " of each soul may become manifest .
Individuals , in turn , have the respnsibility to act in a manner which
develops the Desire of God to be known - that is to manifest the divine
perfections with which they have been endowed . To abdicate this
responsibility on the part of the individual is to prevent the purpose of
creation to be manifest, the Desire of God to be known . This would
constitute an ethical lapse of the highest order . To demonstrate the
individuals responsibility to develop the divine perfections in a system of
ordered liberty Baha u lah eliminates the position of the clergy in His
religious community . No one else may mediate my relationship to God nor can
I defer the responsibilties of liberty to another .
It seems much of Baha u lah's writing can be understood as a series of
ethical prescriptions and proscriptions designed to assist the development of
a consultative democracy in the socio - political sphere and as a series of
statements as to how the individual may assume the responsilities inherent
in a system of ordered liberty . It is in this context that the idea of
"law"takes on significance . It is both the exoteric background which
prevents tyranny and oppression - the violation of human rights - and the
esoteric means by which the soul may come to recognize its "Lord" . As Baha u
llah says in one of his mystical works that each person "may testify in
himself, by himself, in the station of the manifestation of his Lord that
verily there is no God save Him ." The heart of this observance of the Law
in a context of liberty is to do so Baha u lah states " for the love of my
Beauty." This brings as full circle in that Abdul Baha remarked that the
originating "cause" of all existence is the "Essence of Beauty witnessing its
own Beauty within its Essence " and that the station humans can reach is a
stage of this divine station where this "witnessing occurs . I like to think
of it poetically as being present at creation.
All of this underscores , I think , the centrality of Justice , both in
its social forms and in acts of individuals . Justice is, Bahau llah says,
both the "Best - Beloved of all thihgs in His sight " and as a human choice
, which implies liberty , that one would "choose thou for thy neighbour that
which thou choosest for thyself." And how could it be otherwise for the
ultimate choice is to select those things which will allow the hidden God to
become manifest in every human being and to do so for the "love of My
Beauty."
This is as far as we got that evening though there were a number of
questions along the way . The single most important aspect in thier minds
probably had to do with the democracy issue and religious liberty . I tried
, however inadequatly , to express my sense that all this implies there can
be no form of domination of one group or individual by any other group either
politically, culturally or economically . We are all as members of religious
and cultural communities and as individuals, most importantly, the "letters
of the words and the words of the book ." The Cause of God , the Cause
of Baha u lah is that every human being may live in a context - a spiritual
democracy an Irfan Republic - and in the necesary liberty as a citizen ,
answer to the call of the Best Beloved as it is manifest within them " Am I
not your Lord ? yea , yea I testify that thou art . "
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 01:17:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: talisman
Subject: Re: Review / Provisional Translations
Dear Talismanians,
Thank you, Michael, for posting those letters from the House on
provisional translation and thank you, Juan, for your long reply. May I
assure all that I have no intentions of resurrecting a horse that's been
beaten too many times, namely, the topic of review. But I am trying to
understand the process, and there are some confusing things!
One other thing that I don't understand. How does it work that
Britain's system allows for Lambden's journal to be reviewed by the
editors, while the system of the United States works otherwise? Did these
systems just develop differently through historical happenstance? And,
could an American author who wished to include provisional translations
without going through the extra step of having them approved by the House
just have them published in Britain?
Random questions... I'm sure that I'll have more next week!
-Jonah
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 23:02:27 -0800
From: steve.ua@ix.netcom.com (S Lieberman )
Subject: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 1
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Ahang Jan...
The reason I wrote in my note to reply privately was to make sure that
you would avoid replying publicly, which you did, my brother. Of
course, that is the risk one takes in the miraculous age we are living
in, and so, in the future, I will be much more careful about my private
replies, not to mention my public ones.
The major point was that he was, undoubtedly, one of the most prominent
Baha'is in the United States in the past 25 years, and in the latest
edition of the "In Memoriam" section of The Baha'i World, no mention of
him is made. And so, of course, what this accomplishes is that it
raises speculation, half-truths, rumours, etc., within the Baha'i
community.
One last little comment...your posts on the Zuhuru'l-Haqq are most
interesting...I think however, the way you worded your initial comments
could have been read to be a rather severe criticism of Mr. Furutan,
which, presumably, you would not have wished to convey, at least
publicly. So just a little recommendation that before pressing the
SEND icon, close your eyes, count 10 seconds and re-read what you
wrote. It's a good way to prevent having to back-peddle on your next
post. (By the way, this is an especially good policy if you plan on
posting a joke about women serving on Local Assemblies)...
Love from all of us to your family. My kid is 10 next month, can you
believe it?
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 03:18:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: talisman
Subject: Free online Hadith collection
Dear Talismanians,
Once again I offer online texts. (I only put the word "Free" in
the subject heading to grab people's attention! It works, perhaps I'll
preface all my emails that way. You know, like "Free comments on Review,"
or "Free, my thoughts on mysticism"! :^)
I have just downloaded the entire hadith collection Sahih Bukhari
from the University of Southern California's Muslim Student's
Association's home page. To save others the trouble, I can email it. Since
many of the last texts I mailed out were too large for people's servers, I
broke this up into six documents of around 1 MB each. Write me if you want
to receive this; an address is all I need. I'll mail it piece-by-piece to
keep from messing up your incoming mail. I'll wait a week or so to collect
all the addresses before sending them out.
And speaking of which, the offer stands to email copies of the
New Testament, Old Testament, Book of Mormon, Tao te Ching, Qur'an (in
three translations), Bhagavad-Gita, or... no, I guess that's all I have
online.
-Jonah
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:20:44 +0100 (MET)
Subject: quddus & pea
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Ahang,
you are of course right - 6 times the length of the Qur'an.
I have a mind like a tin box. However, unless I stop (p)rattling
entirely, you and I know there is a pea inside
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:46:21 +0000 (GMT)
From: Robert Parry
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: philo`s and the chaldaioi
whilst floating thru the internet i came across this academic paper
titled `philo`s use of the chaldaioi` by c.k. wong (westminster
theological seminary [1990]. the chaldaioi for the uninitiated is a
reference to the chaldeans.
i`ve only glanced at the paper, but the author does tease out three uses
of the term in philo`s writings (including as a reference to the hebrews
and/or the hebrew tongue). if anyone is interested i can e mail the paper to
them.
by the way greetings from north wales. i shall say a fuller
hello in the near future,
robert parry
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 07:06:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 1
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
> The reason I wrote in my note to reply privately was to make sure that
> you would avoid replying publicly, which you did, my brother. Of
> course, that is the risk one takes in the miraculous age we are living
> in, and so, in the future, I will be much more careful about my private
> replies, not to mention my public ones.
Thanks very much for your note, my dear friend. But I didn't
reply publicly. I replied to your private note, in a private
email. If you don't believe me, ask others on Talisman if they
received a copy of my (private) note to you of last evening.
None besides you has.
Sorry if your email system did not convey that.
But this note is being sent via Talisman, so people don't think I
have the habit of publicizing their private communications.
warmest regard and again I'm sorry for the confusion.
much love, ahang.
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 1
To: steve.ua@ix.netcom.com (S Lieberman)
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 9:52:05 EST
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
S. Lieberman need not be concerned. This is to confirm that I,
for one have not seen a post on Talisman from Ahang either forwarding
or responding to Lieberman's private email prior to this exchange.
I have absolute trust and confidence in Ahang's confidentiality
and in his standards of ethical conduct, which extend to defending a
deserving man's reputation beyond the grave.
Speaking of which, I have lost the reference in *Star of the West*
in which the beloved Master states that the only two fully-confirmed
Baha'is He had sent to America were Mirza Abu'l-Fadl and Jinab-i-Fadil.
I am curious as to the number of unique Tablets of Baha'u'llah
that Fadil has published, for which there is no other copy. I venture to
say that that the Master's Tablet on Native Messengers in America (which
seems to have been interpreted in four different ways [you missed this
post, Ahang and Juan]) might not ever have been known were it not for
Fadil. Am I right or wrong on this count?
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:49:51 +0100 (MET)
Subject: hadith wanted (Sonja)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From Sonja van Kerkhoff
Reactions please!
I am working on a video projection where a view of a tulip
from the view of the stem, is projected onto a ceiling. The
tulip rotates slowly in clockwise direction and I am looking
for a hadith or a phrase that sounds like a hadith (to be
spoken in Turkish by a Dutch woman) which will be
whispered.
I am looking for a text which speaks of origins or roots in
cycles or circles.
The piece is a commentary on a Dutch sense of (roots)
history and nationalism. Turkish people living here are
generally treated with great contempt, and neo-nazis and
other extreme types, run around terrorizing them (no this
doesn't happen all the time!). Intolerance towards non-white
people is a problem here, and one that is not addressed (in
my opinion). The argument used here by many both liberal
and extreme, is 'well, they can go back to their own
country'. Hence this artwork, where a tulip (I've used an old
type- Tulips orginally came from Turkey) turns, and a
Dutch speaker speaks in the tongue of the land from which
the Tulip originated.
In making use of Talisman's vast human database, I'd
appreciate any suggestions for a text.
Thanks, Sonja.
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:11:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Unrelated Man and woman in same house
To: talisman@indiana.edu
This is Arindam and I am glad to be back. Now I pose this question since
whenever I asked this question I was referred to some of Guardian's writings
which mentions "cohabitation" which implies a sexual relationship. So
my question is did the Guardian ever directly address the issue of "unrelated"
(What's the definition of relation: anyway) man and women who are not having
a sexual relation residing in the same house? If so, in what context? Because,
I can clearly envision situations in the east where an old man may have to
live with the assistance of a maid and so forth. I understand that if possible
it is better not to cause a controversy (though the controversy seems only
among the Bahais) by living together in the same house, however, I would like
to know whether it has a valid scriptural basis or not. Recently a counsellor
told us a story where exactly the situation like the one I mentioned re:east
happened in the west, where a young girl was taking care of an old man age
of her grandfather, and being told that she cannot do that ended up marrying
him. If this "law" is so critical we should have solid backing for it.
Love
Arindam
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Re: Lay Baha`is?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:29:44 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi, Juan -
Thank you for taking the time to clarify what you said. I was
careful not to mention you by name so as not to give the appearance that
I was making a personal remark. In spite of our disagreements on various
substantive and methodological issues (though, contrary to a recent
posting by someone else, I am not opposed to historical criticism and,
as I have said, the research design for my Ph.D. dissertation included
use of this technique), I have nothing but respect for you and your work
on the Faith. I definitely did not intend my comments to come across as
visceral, but I apologize if that is how they appeared. As you know,
cyberspace is a difficult medium to work in.
In my Social Problems class, I use a reader which contains a variety
of articles written to many types of audiences, and I have my students
distinguish, for instance, between those which were written for an
academic/professional readership, on the one hand, and a lay readership
on the other. However, when the term "lay Catholics" (or the Catholic
laity) is used, it is generally to contrast such persons with those who
are full-time priests, sisters, brothers, etc.
I hope that clarifies the reason I misunderstood you. Personally,
I might refer to Toffler or Hoffer as lay "sociologists" or, especially
in the case of Toffler, as a writer who popularizes sociological ideas
for a lay readership. OTOH, while I might speak of Baha'is (and others)
who are lay readers (or laypersons) in relation to a particular field
I would probably not refer to someone as a lay Baha'i. In that sense,
we are, of course, all lay Baha'is. But it is probably just semantics.
Warmest regards to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:44:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: "K. Paul Johnson"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: 90s pub stats by language
Paul: With regard to Arabic and Persian, this method is useless. The
fact is that in *no* Arabic- or Persian-speaking country can Baha'i
literature be openly published, because they all have strong censorship
regimes and their governments all view the Faith as a heresy. In Iran
under the Pahlevis a few hundred Baha'i books were published by the
Baha'i Publishing Trust, but this was done more or less surreptitiously.
Fariborz Sahba (the architect of the Delhi Baha'i House of Worship)
served on the publication committee in Tehran in the 1970s and he said
they had to be careful not to publish very much lest SAVAK (the Shah's
secret police) crack down on them. Obviously, these Baha'i books were
distributed only within the community and to my knowledge no US research
library has more than a handful of them. So what you turned up were
*largely* Muslim polemics against the Baha'i Faith, which are a dime a
dozen in the Middle East (and to which Baha'is there have never been able to
reply).
The largest Baha'i community in the world 1866-1960 was the Iranian, and
it is still the most deepened, and the fact that it labored under such
severe intellectual constraints goes a long way toward explaining the
paucity of Baha'i literature. I suspect also that Qajar and Pahlevi
censorship practices were absorbed *into* the religion, much the way an
abused child ends up imitating his abuser; obviously, knowing one was
constantly monitored by the Muslim clergy and the secret police would
have induced a certain amount of caution.
The Baha'i Faith grew from about 200,000 in population in 1950 to around
5 million today, and grew for the most part among illiterate peasants, so
its social profile would not predict a large literature from India (see
how many books are published in Malwa or even Madhya Pradesh as a whole)
or Uganda, e.g.
The real puzzle is the lack of intellectual production among the American
Baha'is. There were a couple thousand Baha'is here by the turn of the
century, and I think they grew to about 5,000 by 1950. They doubled to
10,000 by 1960, and to 20,000 by 1970, and during the 1970s they
quadrupled to 80,000. Since then some 12,000 Iranians have come in, and
Baha'is have started counting their children, and so we now claim
120,000 (but I think have good addresses for only 67,000 adults).
Even if you compare Baha'i intellectual production with similar small
groups in the U.S. (Quakers, Unitarians, Theosophists, etc.) it seems
clear that the quantity and quality of writing by and about the others is
far superior. It could be that Baha'is are somehow located in
anti-intellectual social niches compared to the other groups. But it
seems to me that the ideology of discourse-control, partially imported
from the Middle East, is at least somewhat implicated in this
intellectual gap. It may also be that the nature of Baha'i politics and
elections militates against writing and publishing, since putting one's
name before the public is always viewed with suspicion. Maybe the real
comparison should be with the Amish (my research library shows 58 books
about this group under "subject"; we have 6.5 million volumes).
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
On Mon, 18 Dec 1995, K. Paul Johnson wrote:
> Followup: checked the OCLC database for books in Arabic and
> Persian on Baha'i. The totals were 54 and 129 titles,
> respectively. Taking these numbers in relation to the
> estimated overall number of titles printed on the Faith in
> these languages should give a measure of the representativeness
> of the database.
>
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:53:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: "Mark A. Foster"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Lay Baha`is?
Mark: Glad that's been cleared up. Of course, I am a laymen in most
fields, myself, including music, physics, engineering, etc. (the list is
endless). :-)
I sympathize about cyberspace being a tough medium in which to avoid
misunderstandings, and know that in the past I have similarly
misunderstood your intent on occasion. And I always enjoy and admire your
postings on sociology.
cheers Juan
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Native Messengers
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 12:23:28 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Several private requests have prompted me to repost Moojan's
version of the *Call of God* text, which evidently is the same as my
source. Note Moojan's positive interpretation of the text as referring to
Native Manifestations of God. Given at least two, if not four
interpretations on this text from Haifa, the meaning of this unique text
preserved by Fadil in *Amr va Khalq* is far from certain. Based on the
Persian original, how would others like Juan, John, Frank, Ahang, Nima or
others interpret this text?
-- Christopher Buck
Wendi and Moojan Momen writes:
> From owner-talisman@indiana.edu Wed Apr 5 20:41:06 1995
> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 17:13:49 GMT
> From: Wendi and Moojan Momen
> Reply-To: momen@northill.demon.co.uk
> Message-Id: <1827@northill.demon.co.uk>
> To: talisman@ucs.indiana.edu
> Subject: Re: Dariush`s civilizations
> X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10
> Lines: 27
> Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
> Precedence: bulk
> X-Status:
>
>
>
> Sorry to be so late in coming in on this discussion, but having been
> away for several days followed by a couple of days of illness, I
> find I have just over 1000 E-Mail messages to get through--I am
> seriously thinking of giving up Talisman so that I can get on with
> life!
>
> Several writers have commented that there is no mention in the
> Baha'i scriptures of a Manifestation of God having come to the
> Americas. There is in fact a statement from Abdu'l-Baha referring
> to America to the effect that "undoubtedly in those regions the
> Call of God must have been raised in ancient times" (Memorandum of
> the Research Department of the Universal House of Justice,
> "Zoroaster and Buddha: Simultaneity of Manifestations," 24 May
> 1988). I would argue that this is the equivalent of Abdu'l-Baha
> acknowledging the existence of America Manifestations of God and I
> added a statement to this effect to the article "American Indian
> Religion and the Baha'i Faith" that was intended for the Baha'i
> Encyclopedia.
>
> Moojan
>
> --
> Wendi and Moojan Momen
> momen@northill.demon.co.uk
> Fax: (44) 1767 627626
>
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
To: Talisman
Subject: Statistics on Publishing
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 12:25:54 -0500
From: "William P. Collins"
-- [ From: William P. Collins * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
I have been watching this discussion with some amusement, primarily because
I think it proves little or nothing about Baha'i publishing as compared with
publishing of other religious groups. As one of those posting has pointed
out, there are many more Baha'i publications in Russian than OCLC's database
would lead us to believe.
Let me tell you the story of my experience at the Library of Congress. When
I started here, there was no "recommending officer" for Baha'i materials.
Because of this, the Library of Congress - one of the great intellectual
institutions of the western world - relied on three ways of getting Baha'i
materials: (1) deposit, either through copyright or the "Cataloging in
Publication Program" - which relate only to publications in the U.S.; (2)
exchange and gift; (3) purchase based upon review in one of the major
academic reviewing journals such as "Choice." Now this method of obtaining
things leaves a great deal to be desired from a Baha'i perspective. When I
surveyed the Library of Congress holdings of Baha'i publications up through
1990, I estimated a gap of some 25% in the published items that it should
have had on its shelves in accordance with its selection policies. It does
not even have a complete collection of "The Baha'i World"! This doesn't
even match the incredible paucity of original Persian and Arabic texts that
the Library of Congress should have had on its shelves but does not. The
Library of Congress's overseas offices did not pick up much of the material
put out by the Publishing Trust in Iran. Since I was made the recommending
officer for Baha'i materials in 1991, I have helped the Library to increase
its Baha'i titles by some 15%. Unfortunately, there are gaps that remain in
the earlier materials, and the Library now has a much decreased budget to
acquire these materials.
I give this background to point out some of the problems with OCLC as a
source for statistics about publishing. The Library of Congress is the
world's premier library, and its cataloging sets the standard for other
libraries in the U.S. If the Library of Congress hasn't cataloged a title,
it means someone else has to, which may militate against the acquisition
and/or speedy processing of Baha'i materials elsewhere. The Library of
Congress has many people familiar with publishing on Christianity, Islam,
Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism. Until I came here, there was no one with
knowledge of Baha'i publishing to point out the gaps.
I would also note that there are growing numbers of original works on the
Faith in languages other than English. The Library of Congress doesn't have
most of them, because of its focus on collecting non-English works that are
either primary sources or of scholarly interest but unlikely to be
translated into English. I have been working on this with them, taking into
account the budget realities of this institution.
Bascially, what I'm saying is that the comparisons being made are subject to
considerable vicissitudes in working out the numbers. I don't have any
question that one can argue that the Baha'i community has produced fewer
publications than some other religious communities; I simply don't see it as
a useful argument in getting more publications. If we want more
publications, we need to create more quality work to be published, and
create the general climate in which Baha'is and non-Baha'is will want to buy
and read the publications. The Universal House of Justice has repeatedly
called, in recent plans, for a vast increase in publications. There has
been an increase, but I would not call it vast.
I am even more interested in how it might be possible to turn the Kitab-i-
Iqan or Hidden Words into bestsellers in bookstores. These scriptures are
inspiring, yet sales are almost totally internal. Why should this be?
--
Bill Collins
6819 Stoneybrooke Lane, Alexandria, VA 22306, USA
wcol@loc.gov (w) or 4705541@mcimail.com (h)
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:19:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Jonah Winters
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: Review / Provisional Translations
Jonah: just to clarify - Juan
On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Jonah Winters wrote:
> One other thing that I don't understand. How does it work that
> Britain's system allows for Lambden's journal to be reviewed by the
> editors, while the system of the United States works otherwise?
These things are somewhat ad hoc. The NSA of the US allows *World Order*
to do its own in-house vetting, as well; and the NSA of Canada lets the
*Journal of Baha'i Studies* do its own in-house vetting. So Lambden's
*Baha'i Studies Bulletin* is simply being treated by the UK NSA in the
same way that these other journals are by their institutions. On the
other hand, the US NSA insisted that *Dialogue* magazine be Reviewed in
Wilmette.
> And, could an American author who wished to include provisional
> translations without going through the extra step of having them
> approved by the House just have them published in Britain?
It seems to me that *Baha'i Studies Bulletin*, which has so far been
barely a publication, more a sheaf of xeroxed pages, has been indulged
with regard to the publication of provisional translations precisely
because it has a very small and specialized circulation. The point is
not to circumvent review in Haifa, but to get something out for comment
from other scholars before seeking formal publication and making demands
on the precious time of the Research Department. If you wanted to
publish a translation more formally, say in a book from the British BPT,
George Ronald or Oneworld, it would presumably have to go to Haifa for
checking.
Also, it has been now about a year and a half since *Baha'i Studies
Bulletin* even appeared at all, because the editor is switching over to a
Mac and has to master quite complicated publishing software, and is in
poor health. In some ways, Talisman and Tarjuman are filling in this gap
for the moment (sorry, the X500 program that runs Tarjuman at U-M has
very low capacity and cannot accommodate lurkers, but most things get
cross-posted anyway).
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
=END=
From: Rick Schaut
To: "Mark A. Foster" , Juan R Cole
Cc: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: RE: Lay Baha`is?
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:27:35 -0800
Dear Juan, Mark and Friends,
From: Juan R Cole[SMTP:jrcole@umich.edu]
>Mark: You were disturbed because you misunderstood. The distinction
>between the clerics and the laity is not the one I was drawing. In
>secular, American society, the word "lay" has now taken on other
>connotations.
>In academic parlance a "lay" reader is one who is not an academic expert
>(usually, not a Ph.D.) in the subject of the book. "Lay" readers are
>contrasted in the book trade with professional experts.
A few thoughts:
1) I'm inclined to believe that neither connotation is appropriate as a
distinction between two different Baha'is. This is not to say that
there was any invalid motive behind the use of the term. However,
it's, perhaps, best to avoid use of the term altogether. Such
distinctions, no matter how well meant, can be dangerous, and
are, at their heart, divisive.
2) A distinction which is not divisive, however, is the distinction
between an institution and the individuals who attempt to serve
in its functions. To find the decision of an institution unacceptable
because the institution doesn't have the right kind of people
serving on it runs, to my mind, very counter to those principles
which underlie the design and creation of these institutions.
3) I may not know the craft of a plumber. However, if I'm not
satisfied with the plumber's work, I believe I have the right to
ask that the job be redone.
Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: AGhosh@uh.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Unrelated Man and woman in same house
Date: 19 Dec 1995 12:37:47 GMT
Arindam -
All I know for sure is that the U.S. NSA was moving towards a very broad
interpretation of cohabitation under the statement of Shoghi Effendi that we
are to "avoid even the appearance of impropriety". They published a
statement in the Baha'i News on it. And then they seemed to pull back
suddenly. I was given the idea that the Universal House of Justice had said
that they were going to far because it would have made such situations as
rooming houses, hostels and similar situations off-limits to Baha'is if both
men and women were admitted. I have not seen any official statements on the
subject since.
Don C
- sent via an evaluation copy of BulkRate (unregistered).
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 14:55:31 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: lay Baha'is
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I think it is truly amazing the way we lionize our administrators, our
counsellors, auxiliary board members, etc. Yet, those people who devote years
of study required to understand the language, history, culture, politics, etc.
required to understand the meaning of the Baha'i texts are constantly put in
their place and accused of arrogance. I have yet to see one of our true Baha'i
scholars stand up in front of a room and play the popularity game. I have seen
prominent Baha'is stand at podiums and act like little more than trained bears
and the Baha'is go into raptures over their charisma. Let a truly learned
Baha'i scholar (and we have only a few of them) stand up in front of a room and
speak in a rational, scientific way and there are mutterings of "upstarts" and
worse.
The truth of the matter is that people without great learning have laid claims
to the power of knowledge. They have usurped the right to interpret and tell
others what to believe. Baha'is here on Talisman post entire talks (sermons)
from prominent Baha'is and indicate that these people's views shouldn't even be
questioned. When Juan or John (and now even Ahang) post their views on a
matter, they are warned to watch out. We don't need a clergy, guys. We have
our administrators and our auxiliary board members, etc. Even without special
costumes, they do the job just fine - perpetuating ignorance. Linda
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 14:57:38 EST
Subject: RE: Lay Baha`is?
This term and the way it was used somehow serves as a reminder of
the good old days of the 'ulama' versus the ignorant ones.
It sounds elitist, arrogant and presumptious that only those whose
profession provides them the necessary resources to investigate the
written materials have a deeper understanding of spiritual realities,
and others better stay within their own realm and not bother the
elite. Is it true??
If so, may God forgive the intent and the"lay Baha'is" will forgive
the effect that it created on them.
Please remember the story involving Fadl and the lay person who led
them to the Faith. It had something to do with:
rain drops
falling on dogs.
lovingly,
Quanta
*** ***
* *
*
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:38:51 PST8PDT
Subject: Re: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 1 (inspiration or thought control?)
Howdy,
Thanks again to brother Ahang and the others for this discussion.
re:
> From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
> Subject: Re: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 1
> To: steve.ua@ix.netcom.com (S Lieberman)
> Date sent: Tue, 19 Dec 95 9:52:05 EST
> Copies to: Talisman@indiana.edu
> S. Lieberman need not be concerned. This is to confirm that I,
> for one have not seen a post on Talisman from Ahang either forwarding
> or responding to Lieberman's private email prior to this exchange.
...
Apparently there were some *unattributed* excerpts of private email
posted by AR. In other words, without microscopically examining all
250+ talisman messages posted in the last week, it does not appear
that there are any publicly posted messages from SL that could have
been excerpted by AR.
However, the only person that should have been able to easily deduce
that AR was publicly posting excerpts from the private email of SL
was SL himself.
Presumably, AR thought that SL's questions were of interest to the
general list, and therefore excerpted and responded to them without
indicating who they were from, other than a brief mention that they
were from someone holding a administrative post (seemingly thereby
protecting SL's privacy unless his email writing style is known to
other people?).
If anyone wants me to compile and repost all of Ahang's "ZH" stuff
to resolve the matter, let me know.
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
(now I would like to take the opportunity to grind an ax as a
somewhat predictably disillusioned Baha'i non-conformist:)
ps, this "ZH" stuff is incredible! What a story. Now we can see a
bit of the real personality and ideological politics in operation
in the upper echelons. Not a pretty sight. I wish I could say that
I'm surprised. I guess that in spite of infallibility and all the
checks and balances in the system, we are still going to have to
struggle to prevent abuses, or at least prepare folks coming into
the community for the cognitive dissonance. When the discussion of
the details of this matter is over, I'd really like AR to defend/
evolve his original intriguing statement that there is a specific
history with identifiable point(s) of origin for the fundamentalist
tendencies in the community. It seems like some of the other folks
have somewhat undermined the evidence supporting that viewpoint.
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:27:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re:"unrelated men and women in same house"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Don mentions the Guardian's statement about "the appearence of impropriety":
would you be kind enough to give me the source of that and what is "Bahai
News" where the directive was published: is this a separate publication?
Do you by any chance know the publication date? Since this seems to be
the directive under which LSAs and Auxiliary Boards are still operating.
I don't have a pressing issue in this regard right now. However, if it
comes up again I would like to be prepared. This issue first caught my
attention when we were discussing housing arrangements for the teachers
in Houston Entry By Troops Project.
Regarding the marriage of the young girl and the old man: all that I know
was that the Counsellor told us that they decided to get married. I don't
think it was FORCED. However, in such situations the implied coercion
that it is not proper to stay together unless you are married could have
played a part and I don't think this coercion should exist. However, in
that particular case it may have been heart-felt, I am not aware of the
actual circumstances.
LOve
Arindam
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:11:05 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: Re: Unrelated Man and woman in same house
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: Unrelated Man and woman in same house
Date: 95-12-19 13:46:11 EST
From: Member1700
To: AGhosh@uh.edu
There certainly is no Baha'i law which would prevent an unrelated man and
woman from sharing the same house, unless they had established a companionate
marriage--that is, they were living together as husband and wife without
having a valid Baha'i marriage.
The situation which was described of a maid or caretaker who was forced to
marry a man old enough to be her grandfather in order to continue as live-in
help is certainly outrageous. Baha'u'llah, in his Most Holy Book,
specifically allows a man to take a maid into his service without marrying
her--contrary to Muslim law and custom. Which Baha'is were behind that one?
In the United States, during the sixties, the National Spiritual Assembly
of this country issued a ruling which discouraged or barred Baha'is of the
opposite sex from living in the same residence without being married--as that
was a time of group communes, "living together," and so forth, which implied
all kinds of exotic sexual arrangements. But, I would hardly call that
Baha'i law, and I am not sure that it is even an issue any more. I remember
talking to some Baha'is in England back then who thought that the whole issue
was ridiculous, since it was quite common--and still is--for (middle-aged?)
men and women in England to share an apartment for decades and never dream of
getting into bed together. So there was no question of giving the wrong
impression in that country.
Anyway, I would say that the whole matter would fall under the general
rubric of the institutions of the Faith not meddling into the private affairs
of the believers, unless there is a public scandal. The House of Justice has
just reiterated that principle in its recent letter on homosexuality.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:33:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Lay Baha`is?
Rick and Quanta, despite my clarification that I was *not* speaking of a
clerical/laity distinction, continue to object to the use of the word
"lay" to describe non-experts.
They must, I am afraid, direct their objections to some other quarter,
such as Webster's Dictionary (or the various Webster's), since this is
simply established English usage (as Mark Foster has also admitted).
This entire episode, it seems to me, is an extended exercise in blaming
the victim. Academic historians and philosophers have put many years
into learning a craft which the Writings themselves tell us is of benefit
to humankind. But then Baha'i academics are not allowed to practice this
craft freely, but rather are burdened with all sorts of unrealistic
constraints. And when the poor scholars dare to point out that these
constraints rather prevent them from serving the Faith as they would
wish, they are denounced as elitist and arrogant. No doubt many slaves
in galleys who dared complain about the whip were also being elitist and
arrogant.
I am sympathetic to an egalitarian sense of religion, in which the
spiritual insights of all are valued, and I think I have posted in the
past on how much I have learned spiritually from non-academics.
This latter is not the point, however, and I suspect you all know it.
The point is that in addition to its spiritual core, which is equally
accessible to all, any religion has a number of aspects that are best
approached through expertise. The Baha'i scriptures work out of a body
of Greco-Islamic concepts, and if one wishes to understand the
*philosophy* (in the academic disciplinary sense) of the Baha'i scriptures,
then John Walbridge and Keven Brown's sort of training is clearly an
asset. Does anyone wish to argue the contrary?
As for the Baha'i institutions, they have only a
legislative/administrative purpose and were not erected in order to tell
people what to think or how to write history or philosophy, nor are they
qualified to do so.
While it is true, Rick, that if you personally hire a plumber to do work,
and you are not satisfied with it, you may ask him to re-do it. However,
when the plumber is working on his own or a third party's house, it would be
rude of you to break down the door and harangue him about his technique
with the L joints simply on the pretext that he lives in your community,
more especially if you, as you say, had no particular training in plumbing
yourself.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:58:24 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Unrelated Man and woman in same house
A few years ago here in Albuquerque, a Baha'i friend of mine _rented_ a room
in a large house owned by a woman who subsequently became a Baha'i herself.
Upon becoming a Baha'i, this lady was informed by our Assembly forthwith,
"Welcome to our community...but you are in violation of Baha'i law;
either Mr X has to move out of your house or we will impose
administrative sanctions on both of you." A heck of a way to welcome
someone into the Baha'i community, wouldn't you think!!! No need to
say what happened next: they have both since left the Faith altogether.
Can anyone say the word "flexible."
Regards,
Nima
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
"In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:03:56 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re:"unrelated men and women in same house"
Hello all, Since I do not have a scanner, nor all day to type this out, I
will provide passages for you to look up... my one source being *The Advent
of Divine Justice* by Shoghi Effendi...
See page 25 of ADJ, copyright 1971... It says it all... And all it
takes is common sense.
And one more point, as a chaste, single-never-married female... that for
anyone to suggest I house with men, not my husband, would be absolutely
horrible. Just because the girls of society lose their virginity at age 12,
do not assume Bahai Women do too.
Margreet
At 01:27 PM 12/19/95 -0600, AGhosh@uh.edu wrote:
>Don mentions the Guardian's statement about "the appearence of impropriety":
>would you be kind enough to give me the source of that and what is "Bahai
>News" where the directive was published: is this a separate publication?
>Do you by any chance know the publication date? Since this seems to be
>the directive under which LSAs and Auxiliary Boards are still operating.
>
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:14:46 PST8PDT
Subject: Re: Baha'i studies (Stockman's applied Baha'ism?)
Hi again,
re:
> Date sent: Sun, 17 Dec 95 16:23:49 EWT
> From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
> Originally to: PO%"talisman"
> Subject: Baha'i studies
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
> Heaven forbid that I should publicly disagree with my husband, but I really
> don't understand the concept of "Baha'i agriculture" or "Baha'i nutrition." I
> can understand studying the Faith theologically, historically, and socially
(or
> anthropolgically), but beyond that, I haven't a clue as to what anyone means.
>
> Linda
>
Hi Linda,
I don't know why this interesting topic got dropped, maybe Robert
Stockman didn't see the posting or doesn't have time to reiterate
his definition. The only thing that seems obvious is the Universal
House of Justice's letter from the early 1980's encouraging Social
and Economic development, at the heart of which is the use of
spiritual principles applied through the Baha'i concept of
consultation.
A more tenuous connection may be possible if one follows the
popular wholistic/ecological line of thought that economics and
social issues are essentially framed by spirituality, ethics and
morality (such as social justice, redistribution of wealth, etc.).
So, the industrialization of agriculture as a social/nutritional
problem may lead us to an examination of the crisis of character
in society (Wendell Berry), or as Baha'is would probably say, the
crisis of spirituality.
Perhaps it would seem more obvious if we were sitting on a mesa
in the Arizona desert with some traditional Navajo hunters eating
javalina tamales?
Let me know if this makes any sense,
EP
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 15:22:25 CST
From: Milissa
Subject: Unrelated men and women
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Well this is an interesting topic!
I want to add my 2 cents worth....however, I hesitated due to the story
related by Nima Sadra as I am in a similar situation, as I rent out the
top floor of a house owned by my friend Steve, who lives in the downstairs
part. We have to share the kitchen, basement and yard.
I do not feel this is a violation of Baha'i law as we are only friends and
we are not "co-habiting"---believe me, the idea of us having sex does not
appeal to either one of us! :)
I think the only problem is the part about appearing to be improper. However,
this seems very relative to me as it really depends on the culture you are
living in. No one of my family or friends object to my living arrangement as
it is well understood it is for economic reasons only. Even my mother, who
is no Gloria Steinem, doesn't have a problem with it.
And Marguerite, with all due respect from another single, never-married
female, what on earth does this have to do with losing one's virginity at
12????? Sorry but you really lost me there. I fully respect your opinion and
would not try to change your mind, but are you implying that someone like me
is a loose women because my housemate is the opposite sex?
Believe it or not, people of opposite sexes can live and work together with
the utmost repect, dignity and generally behave well. Please understand I am
not advocating co-habitation in the sense that Shoghi Effendi meant and I am
not living in such a way.
I guess I am baffled by how people tend to interpret social laws in the most
conservative and restricted ways....I wonder why human nature is this way?
At any rate, the law in the Aqdas says that an unmarried woman can live in
the house of her employer so wouldn't the same idea apply to a woman renter
and a male landlord? It seems to me it does.....
just some thoughts....
Milissa Boyer
mboyer@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:52:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re:"unmarried men and women in the same house"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
>Hello all, Since I do not have a scanner, nor all day to type this out, I
>will provide passages for you to look up... my one source being *The Advent
>of Divine Justice* by Shoghi Effendi...
>See page 25 of ADJ, copyright 1971... It says it all... And all it
>takes is common sense.
>And one more point, as a chaste, single-never-married female... that for
>anyone to suggest I house with men, not my husband, would be absolutely
>horrible. Just because the girls of society lose their virginity at age 12,
>do not assume Bahai Women do too.
>Margreet
Thank you Margreet. Sorry if I have offended you. All i wanted to know is
how someone can loose chastity by sharing different rooms in the same house.
Of course nobody is suggesting that you share rooms in the same house if
you do not fill comfortable. The question is if a bahai law is violated
and the answer to me is No unless it is proved otherwise. And I am yet
to see a single piece of writing that says so. The ADJ clearly upholds
chastity. Actually it makes me very angry if someone accuses that my
moral strength is so weak that by sharing a room in the same house I
automatically violate the law of chastity. i guess I can say that much
as a chaste single-never married male and I DO NOT come from this society
any way.
Love
Arindam
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: RE: Lay Baha`is?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:56:25 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Juan R Cole wrote to talisman@indiana.edu:
J >They must, I am afraid, direct their objections to some other quarter,
J >such as Webster's Dictionary (or the various Webster's), since this is
J >simply established English usage (as Mark Foster has also admitted).
Juan,
Not to belabor the point, but since you have mentioned me, please
allow me to clarify:
I realize that the term "lay" can be correctly used to refer to
someone who is not an expert in some particular field. As I have said,
that is how I make use of this term in my Social Problems classes.
Thus, individuals can be laypersons (or laity) in relation to one or
another field. However, you referred to "lay Baha'is."
I certainly appreciated your clarification that you did not intend
an approximation of the standard clerical/laity distinction. However,
even as someone accustomed to this term, if I read someone writing about
"lay Baha'is," my assumption would be that she or he were making some
sort of elitist distinction between Baha'is. I now accept that you did not
intend it that way, but, given that, I feel that your usage was somewhat
confusing and not technically correct. Would it not have been more
accurate to refer to those who were not professional historians rather
than to "lay Baha'is"?
In addition, one of the other list members posted a message today
which said that there are very few true Baha'is scholars, or words to
that effect. My feeling is that this message might be reflective of what
I would regard as a very narrow view of Baha'i scholarship - one limited
to those who engage in study of the Arabic/Persian primary sources.
Warm greetings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:04:39 +1300 (NZDT)
To: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: RE: Lay Baha`is?
ffolks,
Whatever the explanation, and after a night sleeping on it, I have to admit
to still getting a little chicken bone in my throat over the expression
"lay Baha'is". While it has to be acknowledged that the person of skill
should receive his/her due (ref; in the Writings: the person of science has
a great right [or somesuch]) I question some of the distinctions/categories
given by our esteemed Juan R. Cole (PhD). How can I say this? Hmm. A
story...
OK. Let's say Juan asserts the philosophical excellence of "Fred Smith",
who happens to be his close friend and a PhD. Let's say Juan goes further
than that and says that no one around can come close to Fred Smith's level
of excellence. Let's say, also, that Juan asserts that the generality of
Baha'is are bound to listen to this already too snotty Freddy on
philosophical matters, because they don't have PhDs and haven't been
endorsed by JRC PhD... Can't you see? The situation is sewn-up in a mesh
of "expert" prison-wire that would make even Foucault blanch. To top it all
off, because the whole matter IS essentially philosophical, there's ol'
snotty Fred playing Sherpa Tensing and Ed Hilliary on the highest summit,
absolutely beyond impeachment.
Now this just won't do!! Will it ;-} Huh? The proletariat will rebel,
and lynch these oppressors, especially when it is discovered that old Fred
doesn't really know what he is talking about, and isn't really a scholar's
big toe, let alone a philosopher. Y'see, ol' Fred is perpetually
contradicting the House, etc...
Of course, I have exaggerated this story a little. But you'll get my
point, if yer really think about it. But don't think me an entirely
humourless kill-joy. I have an idea for lightening this topic. It
includes widening its scope to include a passing reference to the other hot
topic de jour, "unrelated men and women in same house." To start the ball
[!] rolling, I'll put a simple question:"In what circumstances may we lay
Baha'is?"
Now if this topic is too rich for our refined tastes, perhaps we should
discuss the suitablity of "lay Baha'is?" from another perspective. I
mean...is it suggested that Baha'i women should be brood hens for the
Faith?
Utterly lay but could be more laid back,
Robert.
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:16:02 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: lay Baha'is
In a message dated 95-12-19 14:56:05 EST, you write:
>Even without special
>costumes, they do the job just fine - perpetuating ignorance. Linda
>
>
Before I say anything here - and I have been quiet due to some other matters
more pressing - Linda, would you possibly like to rephrase the above?
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 15:58:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: "PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus." <"pierceed@sswdserver.sswd.csus.
edu"@esds01.mrgate.bmoa.umc.dupont.com>,
talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 1 (inspiration or thought control?)
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Eric,
You make a fine detective, but I suggest you keep your day job
for now ;-}
The "unattributed" message that I posted as part of my posting
which I identified as "from a friend in administrative post", did
*not* come anyone who has posted on Talisman, including SL. As
such, I knew people couldn't identify this person by the
questions or composition style.
I honor people's privacy and I rather we don't speculate further
on the identity of the person from "the administrative post".
This thing is getting out of hand ...
We have to understand that certain email system don't show the
addressee of message, as such its easy to confuse a private email
with one received by all of Talisman. Fortunately, my system
keeps all the attributions so I'm careful to differentiate
between emails from work, Talisman, private, professional
societies, etc. But its fully understandable if other people's
system is not equipped with these bells and whistles and hence
occasional confusion can occur. Its not the end of the world!
Can we now go back to scholarly discussions? I'll post part 5 of
ZH-3 series later today.
love, ahang.
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 16:57:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re:men and women in the same house
To: talisman@indiana.edu
OOps, seems I have ignited a hot topic on arrival. Actually now that
I think of it it does seem to be an issue of concern to me. A few
months ago one of my unmarried Bahai friends gave shelter to his
imprisoned friend's wife and baby in his apartment for a long time.
I guess I would do so also irrespective of what anybody has to say
on this issue and whether I face any administrative sanction or not.
I guess I should write to the House on this issue since this seems to
be a gray area.
Love
Arindam
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:42:16 EST
Subject: Re: lay Baha'is
My response to the below statement is that according to the example
given by Mr. Ahang, some individuals from either camp seem to be
undeserving of absolute trust of the "lay Baha'is".
Your point regarding the administrators as individuals is very well
taken by me. Unfortunately, due to misunderstandings of the phrasing of the
"election
call" many members of the Local Spiritual Assemblies I have witnessed
as saying "Baha'u'llah has chosen me. There must be something about
me and I will try my best to be worthy of such a trust etc. etc.etc."
I can guarantee you that some individual administrators are no less
arrogant than some scholars in any given community.
It will take decades, if not century before we are at a point of
slightly manifesting the phrase "possess ye a pure, kindly and radiant
heart" from the Hidden Words. Additionally, no one perpetuates
ignorance in me, but a deep pain in my heart, very successfully.
Knowledge without truth and purity = ignorance
Love without detachment and wisdom=idolatry
Service without humility and detachment=egoism
lovingly,
quanta
>We don't need a clergy, guys. We have
>our administrators and our auxiliary board members, etc. Even without special
>costumes, they do the job just fine - perpetuating ignorance. Linda
*** ***
* *
*
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:53:34 +1300 (NZDT)
To: cybrmage@niia.net (Bud Polk), talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: birds warbling
OK Bud,
I don't mind if you get into Linda's good books at my expense, especially
as you are -- at least in spirit -- and, as usual -- right.
Robert, flapping across a blue sky with black wings. Caaaaawww! (a rook?)
=END=
From: "Bud Polk"
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu,
robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 06:47:30 +0600
Subject: Re: birds warbling
On 19 Dec 95 at 10:31, Robert Johnston wrote:
> Dear Linda,
> Sparrows chirrup rather than warble. And like William
> Carlos
> Williams' red wheel barrow in the rain (your cue David) EVERYTHING
> depends upon our knowing this...
>
> Robert ;-}
My dearest Robert,
There is no way to transcribe -- in any notation -- the songs and
call notes of birds. What to one Taliswoman may sound like a
"warble", may, to a Talisman, sound like a "chirrup."
Bird sounds may only be learned in the field (or from tapes). I
would suggest, however, that "chir-rup, chir-rup" most closely
approximates a transcription of the call-note of the North American
turdus migratorius and not any of the 30 some North American sparrow
calls and songs I know.
And I would suggest that the ammodramus sparrows do indeed sound
more like a "warble" than a "chirrup."
I enjoy Wallace Steven's "Thirteen Ways of Looking at at a
Blackbird." How much more developed, richer and profound than
William's single, insistent wheelbarrow! Much like the list Talisman
itself, how beautiful it is to hear the chorus of many voices.
Ornithologically yours,
Bud ;-)
P.S. Turdus migratorius is the American robin.
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:59:50 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: lay Bahai
Dear friends ,
I would have thought Juakn's explanation of the term "lay" would have
sufficed . Abdul Baha in Secret of Divine Civilization clearlt recognizes
the existence of professional experts. He calls for the convening of a body
of " experts " to assist legislators , assuming that said representatives do
not meet the criteria of "comprehensive knowledge." And lacking such
"knowledge" the representatives would be "unequal in an emergency". Now
uless we assume Abdul Baha is being an intellectual snob here it seems we
should honor his wishes and respect those with "expert " knowledge as being
essential to the proper functioning of the Commonwealth. It is instructive
to ponder Abdul Baha's comments in this regard . He discusses the category of
the "learned " in such subject areas as sacred Scirtures , divine and
natural science , religious jurisprudence and the arts of government and my
goodness how did this one slip inthere " . .and the great events of history
." Apparently Abdul Baha thought historians were of some importance to the
functioning of the legislature and among others shoud be consulted for the
expert knowledge .
One of the most common forms of anti - intellectualism is to create a
caricature which is meant to demean the character of the possessor of
knowledge . If someone can find passages from Abdul Baha that support the
belittling of "expert " knowledge which he suggests is essential to the
"order and equilibrium of society please let me know . As he points out ">.
The first attribute of perfection is learning and the cultural attainments of
the mind . "
If as a lay bahai I do not have that "attribute " and wish to acquire
"comprehensive knowledge" how might I acquire the same ? Surely is does not
come from ridiculing those who do and can assist in its realization .
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:03:41 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: turkey
Quanta, I see from your home page that you are from Turkey. Have you
visited the sites associated with Rumi? Was this a part of your
upbringing? A few years ago there was a marvelous display of arts from
Turkey at a museum in Santa Fe; plates, textiles, pottery.
Brent
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 16:52:04 PST8PDT
Subject: LONG: ADJ excerpts (1938, Shoghi on sex, drugs and rock&roll)
(Margreet, others without ftp: unzipped ecopy from oneworld.wa.com/pub/bwc)
THE ADVENT OF DIVINE JUSTICE
(U.S., First pocket-size edition 1990)
FILENAME: ADJ
FILEDATE: 08-12-94
+P1
THE ADVENT OF DIVINE JUSTICE
...
+P20
...
Theirs will be the
duty and privilege, in their capacity first as the establishers
of one of the most powerful pillars sustaining the edifice of
the Universal House of Justice, and then as the champion-builders
of that New World Order of which that House is to
be the nucleus and forerunner, to inculcate, demonstrate,
and apply those twin and sorely needed principles of Divine
justice and order--principles to which the political corruption
and the moral license, increasingly staining the society
to which they belong, offer so sad and striking a contrast.
...
How great, therefore, how staggering the responsibility
that must weigh upon the present generation of the American
believers, at this early stage in their spiritual and administrative
evolution, to weed out, by every means in their
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
power, those faults, habits, and tendencies which they have
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
inherited from their own nation, and to cultivate, patiently
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
and prayerfully, those distinctive qualities and characteristics
that are so indispensable to their effective participation
in the great redemptive work of their Faith. Incapable as yet,
in view of the restricted size of their community and the limited
influence it now wields, of producing any marked effect
on the great mass of their countrymen, let them focus their
attention, for the present, on their own selves, their own individual
needs, their own personal deficiencies and weaknesses,
+P21
ever mindful that every intensification of effort on
their part will better equip them for the time when they will
be called upon to eradicate in their turn such evil tendencies
from the lives and the hearts of the entire body of their fellow-citizens.
Nor must they overlook the fact that the World
Order, whose basis they, as the advance-guard of the future
&Baha'i generations of their countrymen, are now laboring to
establish, can never be reared unless and until the generality
of the people to which they belong has been already purged
from the divers ills, whether social or political, that now so
severely afflict it.
Surveying as a whole the most pressing needs of this
community, attempting to estimate the more serious deficiencies
by which it is being handicapped in the discharge of
its task, and ever bearing in mind the nature of that still
greater task with which it will be forced to wrestle in the
future, I feel it my duty to lay special stress upon, and draw
the special and urgent attention of the entire body of the
American believers, be they young or old, white or colored,
teachers or administrators, veterans or newcomers, to what I
firmly believe are the essential requirements for the success
of the tasks which are now claiming their undivided attention.
Great as is the importance of fashioning the outward
instruments, and of perfecting the administrative agencies,
which they can utilize for the prosecution of their dual task
under the Seven Year Plan; vital and urgent as are the campaigns
which they are initiating, the schemes and projects
which they are devising, and the funds which they are raising,
for the efficient conduct of both the Teaching and Temple
work, the imponderable, the spiritual, factors, which are
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
bound up with their own individual and inner lives, and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
with which are associated their human and social relationships,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
are no less urgent and vital, and demand constant
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
scrutiny, continual self-examination and heart-searching on
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
their part, lest their value be impaired or their vital necessity
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
be obscured or forgotten.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Of these spiritual prerequisites of success, which constitute
+P22
the bedrock on which the security of all teaching
plans, Temple projects, and financial schemes, must ultimately
rest, the following stand out as preeminent and vital,
which the members of the American &Baha'i community will
do well to ponder. Upon the extent to which these basic requirements
are met, and the manner in which the American
believers fulfill them in their individual lives, administrative
activities, and social relationships, must depend the measure
of the manifold blessings which the All-Bountiful Possessor
can vouchsafe to them all. These requirements are none
other than a high sense of moral rectitude in their social and
administrative activities, absolute chastity in their individual
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
lives, and complete freedom from prejudice in their dealings
^^^^^
with peoples of a different race, class, creed, or color.
The first is specially, though not exclusively, directed to
their elected representatives, whether local, regional, or national,
...
The second is mainly and directly concerned
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
with the &Baha'i youth, who can contribute so decisively to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
the virility, the purity, and the driving force of the life of the
&Baha'i community, and upon whom must depend the future
orientation of its destiny, and the complete unfoldment of
the potentialities with which God has endowed it.
The third
should be the immediate, the universal, and the chief concern
...
+P23
A rectitude of conduct, an abiding sense of undeviating
justice, unobscured by the demoralizing influences which a
corruption-ridden political life so strikingly manifests; a
chaste, pure, and holy life, unsullied and unclouded by the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
indecencies, the vices, the false standards, which an inherently
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
deficient moral code tolerates, perpetuates, and fosters;
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
a fraternity freed from that cancerous growth of racial
prejudice, which is eating into the vitals of an already debilitated
society--these are the ideals which the American believers
must, from now on, individually and through concerted
action, strive to promote, in both their private and
public lives, ideals which are the chief propelling forces that
can most effectively accelerate the march of their institutions,
plans, and enterprises, that can guard the honor and
integrity of their Faith, and subdue any obstacles that may
confront it in the future.
This rectitude of conduct, with its implications of justice,
equity, truthfulness, honesty, fair-mindedness, reliability,
and trustworthiness, must distinguish every phase of the
life of the &Baha'i community.
...
+P29
...
As to a chaste and holy life, it should be regarded as no
less essential a factor that must contribute its proper share to
the strengthening and vitalization of the &Baha'i community,
upon which must in turn depend the success of any &Baha'i
plan or enterprise. In these days when the forces of irreligion
are weakening the moral fiber, and undermining the
foundations of individual morality, the obligation of chastity
and holiness must claim an increasing share of the attention
of the American believers, both in their individual
capacities and as the responsible custodians of the interests
of the Faith of &Baha'u'llah. In the discharge of such an obligation,
to which the special circumstances resulting from an
excessive and enervating materialism now prevailing in
their country lend particular significance, they must play a
conspicuous and predominant role. All of them, be they
men or women, must, at this threatening hour when the
lights of religion are fading out, and its restraints are one by
one being abolished, pause to examine themselves, scrutinize
their conduct, and with characteristic resolution arise to
purge the life of their community of every trace of moral
laxity that might stain the name, or impair the integrity, of
so holy and precious a Faith.
A chaste and holy life must be made the controlling
principle in the behavior and conduct of all &Baha'is, both in
their social relations with the members of their own community,
and in their contact with the world at large. It must
+P30
adorn and reinforce the ceaseless labors and meritorious exertions
of those whose enviable position is to propagate the
Message, and to administer the affairs, of the Faith of &Baha'u'llah.
It must be upheld, in all its integrity and implications,
in every phase of the life of those who fill the ranks of that
Faith, whether in their homes, their travels, their clubs, their
societies, their entertainments, their schools, and their universities.
It must be accorded special consideration in the
conduct of the social activities of every &Baha'i summer
school and any other occasions on which &Baha'i community
life is organized and fostered. It must be closely and continually
identified with the mission of the &Baha'i youth, both as
an element in the life of the &Baha'i community, and as a factor
in the future progress and orientation of the youth of
their own country.
Such a chaste and holy life, with its implications of
modesty, purity, temperance, decency, and clean-mindedness,
involves no less than the exercise of moderation in all
that pertains to dress, language, amusements, and all artistic
and literary avocations. It demands daily vigilance in the
control of one's carnal desires and corrupt inclinations. It
calls for the abandonment of a frivolous conduct, with its
excessive attachment to trivial and often misdirected pleasures.
It requires total abstinence from all alcoholic drinks,
from opium, and from similar habit-forming drugs. It condemns
the prostitution of art and of literature, the practices
of nudism and of companionate marriage, infidelity in marital
relationships, and all manner of promiscuity, of easy familiarity,
and of sexual vices. It can tolerate no compromise
with the theories, the standards, the habits, and the excesses
of a decadent age. Nay rather it seeks to demonstrate,
through the dynamic force of its example, the pernicious
character of such theories, the falsity of such standards, the
hollowness of such claims, the perversity of such habits, and
the sacrilegious character of such excesses.
"By the righteousness of God!" writes &Baha'u'llah, "The
world, its vanities and its glory, and whatever delights it can offer,
+P31
are all, in the sight of God, as worthless as, nay even more contemptible
than, dust and ashes. Would that the hearts of men could
comprehend it. Wash yourselves thoroughly, O people of &Baha,
from the defilement of the world, and of all that pertaineth unto it.
God Himself beareth Me witness! The things of the earth ill beseem
you. Cast them away unto such as may desire them, and fasten
your eyes upon this most holy and effulgent Vision." "O ye My
loved ones!" He thus exhorts His followers, "Suffer not the hem
of My sacred vesture to be smirched and mired with the things of
this world, and follow not the promptings of your evil and corrupt
desires." And again, "O ye the beloved of the one true God! Pass
beyond the narrow retreats of your evil and corrupt desires, and
advance into the vast immensity of the realm of God, and abide ye
in the meads of sanctity and of detachment, that the fragrance of
your deeds may lead the whole of mankind to the ocean of God's
unfading glory." "Disencumber yourselves," He thus commands
them, "of all attachment to this world and the vanities thereof.
Beware that ye approach them not, inasmuch as they prompt you
to walk after your own lusts and covetous desires, and hinder you
from entering the straight and glorious Path." "Eschew all manner
of wickedness," is His commandment, "for such things are forbidden
unto you in the Book which none touch except such as God
hath cleansed from every taint of guilt, and numbered among the
purified." "A race of men," is His written promise, "incomparable
in character, shall be raised up which, with the feet of detachment,
will tread under all who are in heaven and on earth, and
will cast the sleeve of holiness over all that hath been created from
water and clay." "The civilization," is His grave warning, "so
often vaunted by the learned exponents of arts and sciences, will, if
allowed to overleap the bounds of moderation, bring great evil
upon men.... If carried to excess, civilization will prove as prolific
a source of evil as it had been of goodness when kept within the
restraints of moderation." "He hath chosen out of the whole world
the hearts of His servants," He explains, "and made them each a
seat for the revelation of His glory. Wherefore, sanctify them from
every defilement, that the things for which they were created may
be engraven upon them. This indeed is a token of God's bountiful
+P32
favor." "Say," He proclaims, "He is not to be numbered with the
people of &Baha who followeth his mundane desires, or fixeth his
heart on things of the earth. He is My true follower who, if he come
to a valley of pure gold will pass straight through it aloof as a
cloud, and will neither turn back, nor pause. Such a man is assuredly
of Me. From his garment the Concourse on high can inhale
the fragrance of sanctity.... And if he met the fairest and most
comely of women, he would not feel his heart seduced by the least
shadow of desire for her beauty. Such an one indeed is the creation
of spotless chastity. Thus instructeth you the Pen of the Ancient of
Days, as bidden by your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bountiful."
"They that follow their lusts and corrupt inclinations," is yet another
warning, "have erred and dissipated their efforts. They indeed
are of the lost." "It behooveth the people of &Baha," He also
has written, "to die to the world and all that is therein, to be so
detached from all earthly things that the inmates of Paradise may
inhale from their garment the sweet smelling savor of sanctity....
They that have tarnished the fair name of the Cause of God by
following the things of the flesh--these are in palpable error!"
"Purity and chastity," He particularly admonishes, "have been,
and still are, the most great ornaments for the handmaidens of
God. God is My Witness! The brightness of the light of chastity
sheddeth its illumination upon the worlds of the spirit, and its fragrance
is wafted even unto the Most Exalted Paradise." "God," He
again affirms, "hath verily made chastity to be a crown for the
heads of His handmaidens. Great is the blessedness of that handmaiden
that hath attained unto this great station." "We, verily,
have decreed in Our Book," is His assurance, "a goodly and
bountiful reward to whosoever will turn away from wickedness,
and lead a chaste and godly life. He, in truth, is the Great Giver,
the All-Bountiful." "We have sustained the weight of all calamities,"
He testifies, "to sanctify you from all earthly corruption and
ye are yet indifferent.... We, verily, behold your actions. If We
perceive from them the sweet smelling savor of purity and holiness,
We will most certainly bless you. Then will the tongues of the
inmates of Paradise utter your praise and magnify your names
amidst them who have drawn nigh unto God."
+P33
...
It must be remembered, however, that the maintenance
of such a high standard of moral conduct is not to be
associated or confused with any form of asceticism, or of excessive
and bigoted puritanism. The standard inculcated by
&Baha'u'llah seeks, under no circumstances, to deny anyone
the legitimate right and privilege to derive the fullest advantage
and benefit from the manifold joys, beauties, and pleasures
with which the world has been so plentifully enriched
by an All-Loving Creator. "Should a man," &Baha'u'llah Himself
reassures us, "wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of
the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can
bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to
intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good
thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of
His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good
things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves
from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him,
and be of them that are truly thankful."
...
+P41
...
Dearly beloved friends! A rectitude of conduct which,
in all its manifestations, offers a striking contrast to the deceitfulness
and corruption that characterize the political life
of the nation and of the parties and factions that compose it;
a holiness and chastity that are diametrically opposed to the
moral laxity and licentiousness which defile the character of
a not inconsiderable proportion of its citizens; an interracial
fellowship completely purged from the curse of racial prejudice
which stigmatizes the vast majority of its people--these
are the weapons which the American believers can and
must wield in their double crusade, first to regenerate the
inward life of their own community, and next to assail the
long-standing evils that have entrenched themselves in the
life of their nation. The perfection of such weapons, the
wise and effective utilization of every one of them, more
than the furtherance of any particular plan, or the devising
of any special scheme, or the accumulation of any amount
of material resources, can prepare them for the time when
the Hand of Destiny will have directed them to assist in creating
and in bringing into operation that World Order which
is now incubating within the worldwide administrative institutions
of their Faith.
+P49
...
Those who participate in such a campaign, whether in
an organizing capacity, or as workers to whose care the execution
of the task itself has been committed, must, as an essential
preliminary to the discharge of their duties, thoroughly
familiarize themselves with the various aspects of
the history and teachings of their Faith. In their efforts to
achieve this purpose they must study for themselves, conscientiously
and painstakingly, the literature of their Faith,
delve into its teachings, assimilate its laws and principles,
ponder its admonitions, tenets and purposes, commit to
memory certain of its exhortations and prayers, master the
essentials of its administration, and keep abreast of its current
affairs and latest developments. They must strive to obtain,
from sources that are authoritative and unbiased, a
sound knowledge of the history and tenets of &Islam--the
source and background of their Faith--and approach reverently
and with a mind purged from preconceived ideas the
study of the &Qur'an which, apart from the sacred scriptures
of the &Babi and &Baha'i Revelations, constitutes the only Book
which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository
of the Word of God. They must devote special attention
to the investigation of those institutions and circumstances
that are directly connected with the origin and birth
of their Faith, with the station claimed by its Forerunner,
and with the laws revealed by its Author.
...
+P69
...
To the &Baha'i youth of America, moreover, I feel a
word should be addressed in particular, as I survey the possibilities
which a campaign of such gigantic proportions has
to offer to the eager and enterprising spirit that so powerfully
animates them in the service of the Cause of &Baha'u'llah.
Though lacking in experience and faced with insufficient resources,
yet the adventurous spirit which they possess, and
the vigor, the alertness, and optimism they have thus far so
consistently shown, qualify them to play an active part in
arousing the interest, and in securing the allegiance, of their
fellow youth in those countries. No greater demonstration
can be given to the peoples of both continents of the youthful
vitality and the vibrant power animating the life, and the
+P70
institutions of the nascent Faith of &Baha'u'llah than an intelligent,
persistent, and effective participation of the &Baha'i
youth, of every race, nationality, and class, in both the
teaching and administrative spheres of &Baha'i activity.
Through such a participation the critics and enemies of the
Faith, watching with varying degrees of skepticism and resentment,
the evolutionary processes of the Cause of God
and its institutions, can best be convinced of the indubitable
truth that such a Cause is intensely alive, is sound to its very
core, and its destinies in safe keeping. I hope, and indeed
pray, that such a participation may not only redound to the
glory, the power, and the prestige of the Faith, but may also
react so powerfully on the spiritual lives, and galvanize to
such an extent the energies of the youthful members of the
&Baha'i community, as to empower them to display, in a
fuller measure, their inherent capacities, and to unfold a further
stage in their spiritual evolution under the shadow of
the Faith of &Baha'u'llah.
...
+P75
...
Dearly beloved friends! I can do no better, eager as I am
to extend to every one of you any assistance in my power
that may enable you to discharge more effectively your divinely
appointed, continually multiplying duties, than to direct
your special attention, at this decisive hour, to these immortal
passages, gleaned in part from the great mass of
&Baha'u'llah's unpublished and untranslated writings.
...
"O friends! Be not careless of the virtues with which ye have
been endowed, neither be neglectful of your high destiny.... Ye
are the stars of the heaven of understanding, the breeze that stirreth
at the break of day, the soft-flowing waters upon which must
depend the very life of all men, the letters inscribed upon His sacred
scroll."
...
+P91
...
SHOGHI
December 25, 1938
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:33:56 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Talisman
Subject: Specialization
Permit me to express some discomfort on the subject of specialists. I
don't want to elaborate how important specialists are to the Faith in all
areas. What I want to talk about is how we deal with one another.
If I present myself as an international lawyer, or a specialist in refugee
law, or a student of jurisprudence, and apply the skills I've learned to
the study of the Faith, great. We can all learn from one another's
disciplines. So far, so good. And no, I'm not saying I'm as good in that
field as you might be in yours. Frankly, I'm not a specialist in much of
anything. So factor in jealousy if you want.
What I have a problem with is the flattery, and moreso the deference,
shown to people with skills in various areas. If I post a message, and in
the course of a public communication with a physicist I not only praise
his knowledge, but state that I'm going to defer to him in matters of
physics, there is another message implicit. That is, that I expect
deference in the areas where I claim knowledge.
There's lots in the writings about deference to the learned; I found some
marvelous passages in "The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah" over lunch today.
I'm not sure if it's that I'm uncomfortable actually showing the deference
when it comes down to translating the Word into action, or if I am sensing
an unhealthy flattery, and an unhealthy desire for deference, that is
counter to our mutual desire to get someplace.
Just checking the plumbing. Is that OK? I'm not a plumber, but I'm a
roommate in this house.
Brent
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:35:59 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Words of Warning (was Unrelated men and women)
Dear Nima and Talismans
Nima wrote:
>>No need to say what happened next: they have both since left the Faith
altogether. Can anyone say the word "flexible."
A letter dated July 15, 1957 written to the National Spiritual Assembly of
North East Asia on behalf of the Guardian (signed by R. Rabbani) says:
Your Assembly must be very careful not to overload the Baha'is with rules
and regulations, circulars and directions. The purpose of the administration
at this time is to blow on the fire newly kindled in the hearts of these
people who have accepted the Faith, to create in them the desire and capacity
to teach, to facilitate the pioneer and teaching work, and help deepen the
knowledge and understanding of the friends. The beloved Guardian issues this
word of warning, as long experience has shown that it is a tendency on the
part of all N.S.A.s to over-administer. In their enthusiasm they forget that
they have only a handful of inexperienced souls to guide and attempt to deal
with their work as if they had a large population to regulate! This then
stifles the spirit of the friends and the teaching work suffers.
(Source: 1992. _ Japan Will Turn Ablaze: Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Baha, Letters of
Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice and Historical Notes about
Japan_ (revised edition)
(pp 83-84). Compiled by Barbara Sims; Tokyo: Baha'i Publishing Trust of
Japan)
Nima has just given us a good example of what happens when this warning by
the Guardian is not heeded.
It's strange how often our biggest tests in life come from the unwisdom of
the friends... It's as though, knowing the station that we're all called to
and the fact that we are all trying so hard, the harm done by Baha'is to each
other becomes more hurtful than anything done by outsiders.
Best,
Sandy Fotos
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:42:40 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Unrelated persons of different genders under the same roof..
To: talisman@indiana.edu
In reference to the ongoing discussion on unrelated people of the
opposite gender sharing living quarters .
Tony makes the correct point that Baha'u'llah canceled the edict
from Shi'i Islam that an unrelated women could not stay under the
same roof with a man without being married to him or to a
relation living there when she is employed to carry out
household duties . This of course was a matter of Shi'i Islam not
Sunni
Islam . So if I hire a woman to be my housekeeper as long as she
has her own quarters in the residence , it is perfectly respectable
under Baha'i Law .
The matter that Melissa mentions in Western society is fairly
common and normal . Indeed if the ruling living under the same
roof applied then anyone single living in a high rise apartment
block of mixed gender would be in technical violation of Baha'i
Law .
I think the concept of good taste and prudence in such matters
should prevail . For example what is the only way to be able to
live in a big City could be unacceptable in a small village . We all
need to look at the separate situations and try to make the
correct choices , based on our desire to show forth the example
as laid down in the Writings .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 20:52:46 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: trained bear acts
To: talisman@indiana.edu
It is probably obvious from the subject heading that I am not backing down from
my words, Jim and Robert. So, the ball is in your court.
As far as I am concerned, Robert, the scenario that you have painted is quite
accurate, except that the little elite of whom you speak are the Baha'is who
are the noted great speakers. The kind that make ya feel real good when you
listen to them. But, when asked what they said, no one can quite remember
because there was no substance to the talk whatsoever. Now, this sort of thing
is fine in its place. Unfortunately, though, this is pretty much the only kind
of speaker who is really wanted in the Faith. Get too analytical, too
intellectual, and the tittering can be heard over the more soft spoken scholar
who might, once in blue moon, get asked to present a paper somehwere liberal
enough for such an occasion.
The other alternative is the speaker who fits current trends into the Baha'i
teachings or vice versa. This is really my favorite. The 1980s style: how to
make a successful Baha'i marriage in ten easy steps - just actualize your
spiritual potential and consult - step by step! I once went to a conference at
Green Acre which was supposed to be on the topic of the equality of men and
womn. I delivered John's and my infamous paper on the inheritence laws of the
Aqdas. Nobody even listened. But, boy, the next pair to get up told their
life stories about how they met and how great their marriage was because the
guy stayed home and cleaned house while the wife went to work. They went on
for two hours like this. The next act was a couple who had gone through
counseling, baring their souls to the entire audience. But, I am digressing.
Anyway, I maintain that there is a sort of scholarship that is "Baha'i
scholarship." Yes, it is rather narrowly defined. It involved much more than
simply applying Baha'i principles to ones work. It means careful study of the
development and philosophy or the Faith, of the development of the Baha'i
community - an objective study that often requires years and years of special
training. This is hardly elitist. Juan referred to going to a plumber for
plumbing work. How about a brain surgeon? Would you want anyone else working
on your brain? Is it elitist to be a cardiologist? Would you have anyone else
performing surgery on your heart? Is it elitist to recognize the special
capacities of specially trained people. Yet, it seems that the message we are
constantly getting is that "the truly learned" are somehow suspect and most
definitely not wanted, in spite of the fact that, in their youth, they were
encouraged to spend years and years of their lives preparing to be "Baha'i
scholars."
Since I am crabby, I will now get on Derek's case. Derek, the book still
hasn't arrived. If it does come tomorrow, plan to take the first flight to
Escanaba, Michigan (look it up on the map, Derek - it's in a very cold place) -
to hand deliver a copy. This was meant as a Christmas present for my dearly
beloved father in law. (Just a warning, when you find someone to drive you out
to the bluff on which John's parents live, give a loud warning as you pull down
the road leading to the house. Identify yourself somehow so that John's father
won't rush off to pull out one of his shot guns. You'll love this guy, Derek.
He's just great. You'll be snowed in so bring lots of long underwear and some
skis. Or, you might pray real hard that the book shows up tomorrw.) Linda
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:24:10 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: re: lay Bahai
Dear Terry,
Re:
>
> I would have thought Juakn's explanation of the term "lay" would have
>sufficed .
If you think Juan should have the last word on this matter , good and fine,
but please don't try to insist that your values need prevail. This is a
discursive context, friend. Hope you don't mind if the talking continues.
If I need a philosopher I'll go to Plato. If I need an historian I'll go
to Horodotus. The only living learned I defer to in matters spiritual are
the Learned in El Abha -- Hands of the Cause and such...
If I need someone who encompasses everything excellent in thought, I'll go
to 'Abdu'l-Baha...
If that is anti-intellectual, so be it.
I trust you will regain your good humour soon,
Robert.
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 20:35:13 -0600 (CST)
From: Paul Easton
To: Talisman
Subject: Unmarried Men and Women Sharing a House...
Dear Talismanians (emp MANIA ;)
The debate over what constitutes breaking Baha'i standards against
co-habitation has been interesting, but somewhat confusing. In order to
avoid to much redundancy, could we try to clarify HOUSE. What definition(s)
are we using? To avoid being overly redundant, I'll focus my questions
to University living conditions. Are dormitories ( or residence halls,
etc...) where men and women live in the same building - even on the same
floor (GASP!) - but live in seperate rooms and use seperate W.C.s
considered unchaste living arrangments? Would a Baha'i University not have
co-ed housing of any sort? I assume, from previous posts, that I must make
sure that when looking for houseing, I should not rent a room if there are
unmarried females renting other rooms in the house.
Yours,
_____________________________________________________________________________
Paul C. Easton
_____________________________________________________________________________
HOME || WORK
________________________________________||___________________________________
2321 Jersey Street || UW-Stevens Point
Stevens Point, WI 54481 || International Programs
|| Stevens Point, WI 54481-3897
PHONE: (715) 344-4174 || PHONE: (715) 346-2717
E-MAIL: peaston@worf.uwsp.edu || FAX: (715) 346-3591
________________________________________||___________________________________
O Lord! make us firm in Thy love and cause us to be loving toward the
whole of mankind. Confirm us in service to the world of humanity, so
that we may become the servants of Thy servants, that we may love all Thy
creatures and become compassionate to all Thy people. -`Abdu'l-Baha'
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:40:56 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Robert Johnston
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Techne (re: lay Bahai)
Dear Robert--
Hello! And how is the summer over there in New Zealand treating you ;-) Hope
all is well.
Allow me to jump to Juan and Terry's defense. You mentioned Plato as
one of the sources you would go to for philosophy. Well, we share in a
common regard - as you well know. However, you invoked Plato to take
issue in the "laity vs experts" question. Let me say this: I agree with
both Juan and Terry on this point because I agree with Plato. Plato,
on the other hand, would not necessarily agree with your enumeration.
In Plato's weltanschauung (there's my favorite German word again!) there are
definitely those who know and those who do not, those who can and those
who cannot...Both Plato and Aristotle speak of _techne_ when in comes to
expertise on specific matters. Actually translators have often rendered
the word exactly in this way, expertise - although "craft," "skill" etc
are also usually used. W.L. Reese in his _Dictionary of Philosophy and
Religion_ Humanities Press, inc. (New Jersey: 1980), p. 570, left hand
column, defines "techne" as such:
"A Greek term referring to knowledge and application of principles
involved in the production of objects and the accomplishment of specific
ends. For Aristotle, where "episteme" implies disinterested knowledge of
principles and leads to theoretical science, "teche" implies the
application of principles and relates to productive science."
For the Greeks there is a "techne" to everything: administration, art,
philosophising, scholarship, and, yes, even living right, etc. etc. And
this implies doing it well; if a task is not accomplished well, then
the person exercising it does not possess "techne" and is therefore not
in any qualified position to pass judgement on the specific enterprise in
question - period. This is implied in all of Plato's dialogues where the
dialogue invariably ends in aporia, no solution. The purpose of this is that
Socrates demonstrates to his interlocutor that he, the interlocutor, really
doesn't _know_ (episteme or noesis, take your pick) or understand what he's
talking about and that he is merely exercising belief or opinion on the
matter, which for Plato is at the lower epistemological rung of things
because it does not conform with "certainty," the goal of knowledge. I
direct your attention to some of the early and middle dialogues like the
Ion, Laches, Lysis, Charmides, Hippias Minor, Hippias Major, Euthydemus,
Gorgias and especially Euthyphro. Also see Aristotle's Nichomachean and
Eudemian Ethics, On Rhetoric, The Politics and the Poetics. That should
keep you busy for a while (no pun intended) ;-)
Now in regard to Baha'i scholarship, there are certainly people who know -
those who possess the techne of scholarly methodology & analysis - and those
obviously who do not. This is pretty basic stuff here and has nothing to do
with elitism! Therefore in regard to scholarship _specifically_ there is
self-evidently a laity and a non-laity in the Baha'i community: those who
know what they're talking about; those who know somewhat about what
they're talking about and those who absolutely do not have a clue about
what they're talking about. However, this does not detract from the fact
that as _individuals_, naked before the Almighty, all are potentially of
the same rank and equal. We are all God's vicegerents here, and no
one is arguing otherwise. But, as the Holy Quran so eloquently states,
"Are they equal those who know and those who do not?" The answer is an
obvious and emphatic, no! And such is the raison d'etre of life, "For
every one who knows, there is one above who knows more." After all, we're
not communists here ([c] Tatalia, Godfather I) :-)
All Juan, Terry, John, Linda, myself and others are saying is let
the technicians to their craft (techne), and nothing more. Why this should
sound threatening or elitist to some is quite beyond me.
Btw, doesn't Baha'u'llah say, "Blessed are the learned in Baha"?
Yours,
Nima
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
"In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:28:19 -0800
Message-Id: <199512200528.VAA29726@ix.ix.netcom.com>
From: steve.ua@ix.netcom.com (S Lieberman )
Subject: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 1
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Chuck@ccs.carleton.ca
Dear Christopher:
Thanks for your post; I was relieved to see that a confidential post
was not publicly posted, as I had feared. 'Ahang and I had a great
conversation tonight, so it turned out to be a fortunate misfortune.
Re: your quip about the reference to Fazel in Star of the West. You'll
find it, and another very interesting reference in Star Vol. 11, No. 15
(Dec. 12, 1920). For anyone interested, the excerpts from the Tablets
are as follows:
"...His honor Fazel is a revered person. He has been growing for a
long time in the Cause. Next to his honor, Mirza Abul Fazl, he is the
best informed of his contemporaries. He has no aspiration save service
to the Cause of God. He is a scholar, he is appreciative and grateful
to thee." (p. 257, from Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Baha to Roy Wilhelm)
"...The maid-servant of God, Mrs. Hoagg, and the maid-servant of God,
Miss Culver, arrived. They brought your photograph with green turban
and that of your respected wife; likewise the photograph of his honor
Fazel with white turban and luminous face. It was conducive to great
rejoicing. His honor Fazel, in reality, is perfect in all the
grades--in knowledge and virtue, in sincerity of intention, in beauty
of character, in severance from aught else save God and attraction with
the fragrances of God. Truly I say, he is the manifestation of this
blessed verse: "I do not ask ye any reward. Verily my reward is with
God, the Lord of the two worlds. It is written: 'If for the sake of thy
self sacrifice thou desirest a compensation, the compensation which is
given by His Holiness the Almighty is the best of all'"... (p. 257,
from Tablet from 'Abdu'l-Baha to Ahmad Sohrab)
Cheers....from Steve...at the friendly skies of UAL
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 22:02:42 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu
Subject: lay Baha'is and academics
Dear Talismans,
Here's something that my dissertation chairman, Rod Ellis, told me after my
defense. I think it's relevant to considerations that Linda and others have
raised about a general lack of appreciation for the Baha'i Mid-Eastern
scholars.
"It's called 'Post-dissertation depression,'" Rod said. "A person spends
years, studying, passing language exams, doing research and finally writing
the dissertation and then what? Well, usually nothing. No one congratulates
you, appreciates you, there is no special reward, and you still get wet when
it rains! And sometimes the recognition never comes despite your best
effort..."
If this is true in the large applied field of English language education, how
much more true must it be for Mid-Eastern History. In this area, even the
general scholars--let alone the Baha'i-- have to learn several extremely
difficult languages, get hold of primary sources under difficult and
dangerous conditions, be expert translators and then, after a long period of
writing exhaustively (characteristic of historians, versus us social science
types, who can whip up very credible research reports in a matter of
weeks/months) publish their work for a very limited readership. Furthermore,
instead of literally thousands of journals providing a publication venue in
the fields of education or language, I wonder how many there are in
Mid-Eastern History. Probably not many...
And then the Baha'i scholars have to put up with attacks from Muslim and
other colleagues. On top of this, they often don't receive recognition for
their hard study and years of effort from many of the Baha'is who they are
try to serve and inform.
Well, North America is noted for an anti-intellectual tendency--seen in the
highly pejorative terms designating intellectuals: eggheads, nerds, geeks,
etc. We shouldn't really be surprised if this trend is sometimes shows up the
Baha'i community, despite the emphasis on excellence and scholarship in the
Writings. The scholars must just continue the march out of love for their
field and their Faith, and put expectations behind them.
One thing which might help is to set up a way to publish"working paper"
versions of work in progress; for example, Talisman Working Papers,
consisting of edited posts, opinion pieces, etc. In my field, these are put
out by specific institutions or groups for the members, and therefore don't
require blind peer review outside the institution. I have learned so much by
following the posts of the Mid-Eastern scholars and have my own archives for
further study. This material should be disseminated more widely somehow.
Disclaimer: This idea has probably been proposed many times by many people,
so forgive this new member if I'm covering old ground.
Best,
Sandy Fotos
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:59:12 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: trained bear acts
Yes I have seen my share of trained bears over the years. probably as many as
you have Linda, maybe even more. Can't stand them. Remind me of the folks on
the Potomac river.
And I too have stood up there and tried to clearly outline, e.g., America's
spiritual destiny and why it couldn't be done in seven easy steps. Why it
would require more than one afternoon's study of the writings of the
Guardian, with a long break so that everyone could run down to 7-11 and grab
a Super Big Gulp. But then what do youy expect. Look at who our mass teaching
projects appealed to. Between that and the wonderful masking job done in the
60's to give the Faith the appearence of something right out of the commune
look at the majority of the people we attracted to the Cause.
Anti-intellectual, anti-establishment, with a wonderful mixture of middle and
lower-middle class disenfranchised folk who spent gobs of time in front of
the t.v.
The problem that has been created by not following the Guardian's vision in
this country has simply grown each decade. And each time the *leadership*
panicked it went for the easy solution. This isn't to say that we should not
have invited these folk into the Cause - but come on, we were going for the
easy kill here and we knew it.
"Free food in the park if you'll come over and listen to us sing and talk
about unity!"
"No man we don't have a clergy - everyone is responsible for their own
spiritual growth; we have writings but you decide what they mean, ya know?!"
Where the intellectuals should have been was and is where they should be
right now. Not bickering over secondary and tertiary issues but dealing with
the central issue that is the cause of most if not all our problems. What on
earth do you hope to accomplish Linda with a statement such as this:
> Even without special costumes, they do the job just fine - perpetuating
ignorance.<
Do you really see yourself as the big dragonslayer?? Is this the role
you've cut out for yourself here - to constantly find some nameless big bully
to go charging after cause they called your friend a twit??
So what if they're jerks! So what if we have people in place who would
like to put a halt to certain types of speculation. Your yelling and shaking
your tiny little fist ( I am assuming here that you are of diminutive size)
at these people is a huge waste of valuable energy!
Instead of this constant haranguing against the *establishment* why don't
we put our heads together and devise a plan to blow all these buffalo bagles
right out the back door?! If we could capture the attention of enough sincere
believers with a vision of America truly reaching toward its spiritual
destiny - if we could create a critical mass of these people who have the
ability to see the vision and the guts to make it happen - then all these
negative forces, these dancing bears will be shoved aside.
Or is it that we would rather thrive on real and supposed conflict and
conspiracy because it actually makes us feel as if we are doing something
meaningful? Since we haven't generated squat-for-attention among the general
population maybe this is our way of fulfilling that hope that we have
actually accomplished something?
Because what is it coming down to really Linda? Perhaps three or four
dozen disgruntled *scholars* and *leaders-of-thought* arrayed against a few
dozen stick-in-the-muds and troglodytes? Gods of Olympus that'll be something
for the history books (assuming any ever get published after all the bitching
and fussing - you people are as bad as the AHA.) What a rousing battle that
will be. While America slides into the "slough of impending extinction" we're
gonna fuss over who should be the Holder of the Key to the Toilet!
Instead of constantly picking on the symptoms of our inherited and
collective spiritual disease why don't we examine the virus causing it and
find a way of killing it? That way we can get rid of that nasty old puss your
constantly railing against and we can toss those stupid kiddy band-aids that
keep getting slapped on the wounds by the ever-so-talented bears?!
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
[end of 12/19/95 session
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--------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 23:24:02 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Donna Katich Bosch long time servant .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
My dear Talismanians .
Many of you who have been to Bosch , know and love Donna.
Today Tuesday she suffered a burst blood vessel in the brain ans is in
the critical care unit of Dominican Hospital Santa Cruz . She faces ,
we hope a major operation on Thursday to repair the damage if it is
possible to do so .
May I ask for your prayers for her and her husband Jose .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:57:52 +0100
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: rk-mll@algonet.se (Marie-Louise Lundberg)
Subject: nuzul-i-tadriji (was:Re: Ma'dih-yi asmani & Suriy-i-Sabr)
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Dear Talisman,
Christopher Buck wrote:
> BTW, did you ever find the Persian term for *Progressive
>Revelation* that I suggested you look up? (I never heard back from
>you!) The Baha'i technical term for Progressive revelation current
>among Persian Baha'is is:
>
> --nuzul-i-tadriji [= *nuzUl-i tadrIjI*]--
> ^^^^^ ^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^ ^^^^^^
> in any of Baha'u'llahs writings?
>
Yes, I did send out a request on Talisman to find out more about the "Origin
of Progressive Revelation". I had hoped that those Talismanians who are well
versed and deepened in the Arabic/Persian languages would have replied. (It
is unfortunate that although half of my genetic make-up is of "Arabic
origin" I am less than a novice in Arabic. And I do not know Persian at
all). I think you were the only one that did answer my question, and I am
truly grateful for that. It is interesting that you say that "The Baha'i
technical term for Progressive revelation current among Persian Baha'is is
*nuzul-i-tadriji*". I believe that *nuzul-i-tadriji* is a purely Arabic
term. I looked up the relevant terms in my Arabic-English Dictionary (Wehr,
1976) and read that *nuzUl* translates as "to dismount, alight, to descend,
go down, come down . . . to descend from heaven, be revealed (esp., the
Koran) . . ." Almost a whole page was devoted to explain this single word. I
further believe that *muqaddam* is a more common word for progress whereas
*mutadrrij* qualified "in third place". The term *tadriji* was translated as
"gradual, gradatory, progressive".
This is all great, and the Arabic term sounds like an appropriate synonym to
the English *progressive revelation*. However, my question still remains
unanswered:
What is the ORIGINAL word for *Progressive Revelation* that is used in our
Holy Writings, both the Arabic and Persian??? In other words, what is the
original word that lies at the foundation for Shoghi Effendi's translation
of *Progressive Revelation*???
I did recently speak to a Persian Friend and asked him if the Persians use
*nuzul-i-tadriji*. He said it is not very common and that there is not ONE
single expression in Persian which conveys the same meaning. Instead,
according to him, the Persians try to elaborate and explain the term! Is
this correct??? What do you, our Persian Friends, have to say to this???
In Gleanings XXXI (p. 75) Baha'u'llah writes:
"And when this process of PROGRESSIVE REVELATION culminated . . ." (my emphasis)
What does the Arabic/Persian texts say here?
Chris also asked:
> Will your Master's thesis be published?
I will (God willingly) probably have it completed in May 1996 but I do not
think I will have it published. However, I would be very grateful if several
Friends (and "non-Friends"!?) would read and comment upon it before I submit
it . . .
Shal-OM Shanti Shanti . . .
Zaid Lundberg
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:49:27 +0000 (GMT)
From: Robert Parry
To: "William P. Collins"
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Re: Statistics on Publishing
nima re philo piece can you get back to me with your e mail address. i`ve
gone and lost it. yoiks!
robert parry
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 09:28:50 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Intellectual elitism
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Justice compels me to say that, contrary to what Sandy Fotos not
unreasonably assumes,
I myself at least have received nothing but courtesy and respect as a
Baha'i from my Muslim colleagues, Muslim teachers, Muslim students,
Muslim clergy, and Muslim laymen.
The real problem with these difficulties is not that people's feelings are
hurt--the Baha'is in Middle East studies are reasonably successful as
a group, thank you--but that it discourages people from doing things.
I have done translations of Arabic poetry and Islamic philosophy but not
of Baha'i texts--simply because I know that it would be too much trouble
or very likely impossible to get a Baha'i translation approved and published.
I spent eleven years off and on, four of them full time, working on the
Baha'i Encyclopedia--12,000-14,000 hours of my time, not counting
what other people have done--only to see the project stopped at the last
minute. I am therefore not likely to undertake any other large Baha'i
projects. I do not encourage Baha'i students to go into this field.
Nor, for similar reasons, would I agree to supervise a
dissertation by a Baha'i on a Baha'i topic.
Similar problems arise in other areas: Sonya can speak to the arts. I
have friends interested in television production who have encountered
similar problems.
The cost of fiascos in these specialized areas is cumulative. My generation
of Baha'is produced maybe ten people with the qualifications to do
serious study of Babi and Baha'i history and literature in the original
languages. How much Baha'i work have we gotten out of these people
compared to what we might have had?
john walbridge
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: 90's Publishing Stats by Language 1 A First for the Baha'i Faith
To: DEREK COCKSHUT
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 9:32:50 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to DEREK COCKSHUT:
>
> Dear Talismanians
>
> I thought I would try and get the actual figures by Language this is
> not a reflection on Paul , as I know in many cases the Institutions in
> some countries are not so developed as to provide information on
> Publishing .
> The situation in Russia was reported as Zero for Baha'i .
> According to their NSA Secretary today : 40 titles in Russian all
> published in the 90's .
> I believe that makes us first in Russian .
Only on the assumption that all the other totals were
absolutely correct. What if everyone else is underrepresented
in the database as well? Non-sequitur.
I am sure the Spanish and
> German figures are wrong and may be the French as well . I hope to have
> the correct ones soon .
Wrong, in terms of not representing the total output, of
course-- they all are. But not wrong in terms of what the
database shows. And one can only speculate about why Russian
Theosophy books would make it into OCLC at a higher rate than
Russian Baha'i books. Perhaps they don't, and there were
really hundreds published of which only a few made it into
North American libraries.
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Statistics on Publishing
To: "William P. Collins"
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 9:49:11 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to William P. Collins:
>
> -- [ From: William P. Collins * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
>
> I have been watching this discussion with some amusement, primarily because
> I think it proves little or nothing about Baha'i publishing as compared with
> publishing of other religious groups. As one of those posting has pointed
> out, there are many more Baha'i publications in Russian than OCLC's database
> would lead us to believe.
I'm always happy to provide a source of amusement; glad you have
enjoyed the posts. How much they "prove" may be directly proportional
to the reader's openness to persuasion. Of course OCLC comparisons
leave large gaps in the picture, and we don't know what
proportion of Adventist, Mormon, Christian Science, etc. books
never make it into the database. But the overall picture, even
in only English language works, clearly shows Baha'i
publishing output to be comparable to that of much smaller groups,
while groups of comparable size have considerably greater
output.
>
> Bascially, what I'm saying is that the comparisons being made are subject to
> considerable vicissitudes in working out the numbers. I don't have any
> question that one can argue that the Baha'i community has produced fewer
> publications than some other religious communities; I simply don't see it as
> a useful argument in getting more publications.
I wasn't arguing for any particular strategy to increase
output, simply documenting the status quo with as refined a
tool as available -- crude though it may be. The implication
is that it may help Baha'is to see themselves in accurate,
objective context in comparison to other religions' vitality. I was
shocked to see the Mormons and Adventists as the big success
stories of 19th century religion, since they're frankly silly
IMHO. As are the Spiritualists, Theosophists, Christian
Scientists, and Baha'is, all in their own ways. Maybe 100
years is not enough time for a religion to mature into
dignified adulthood.
>
> I am even more interested in how it might be possible to turn the Kitab-i-
> Iqan or Hidden Words into bestsellers in bookstores. These scriptures are
> inspiring, yet sales are almost totally internal. Why should this be?
IMO a new paperback compilation of `Abdu'l Baha writings, well
illustrated and with a good introduction, might also do well in
stores.
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 07:35:14 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: carmen@ucla.edu (Carmen Mathenge)
Subject: Re: Tahirih Bibliography?
Dear friends,
I'm posting this question on behalf of a friend, Muhtadia Rice. (Those of
you who were at the ABS Conference in San Francisco heard her sing some of
her settings of Tahirih's poems.) She is seeking funding for a project
related to the poetry and life of Tahirih and needs to compile a
comprehensive bibliography so that she can demonstrate the impact that
Tahirih made and convince possible funding sources that there will indeed be
an interest. Please forward any bibliographical information you may have to
me, and I will pass it along to Muhtadia. Many thanks. If anyone has
knowledge of possible funding sources, she would appreciate any suggestions.
With loving Baha'i greetings,
Carmen
99999999999999999999999999999999999999
Carmen Mathenge
UCLA, Los Angeles, California, USA
Contact me for expert word processing,
copy editing, or English assistance.
99999999999999999999999999999999999999
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: 90s pub stats by language
To: Christopher Buck
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 10:39:57 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, theos-l@vnet.net
According to Christopher Buck:
>
> Dear Paul:
>
> Thanks for your interesting and instructive bibliographic posts.
> They complement Seena Fazel's citation studies.
>
> For us neophytes, could you tell us how one accesses the OCLC database?
Not all libraries offer public access to it; it is very rare to
find a terminal in a public library other than for staff use.
But I have seen public access terminals at Duke, and have had a
friend at Colgate talk about having the same at that
university. Note that OCLC is the company, which provides its
database through regional networks like SOLINET but also
directly through its FirstSearch online service, which includes
a public access catalog called WorldCat. That may be the form
in which you would be most likely to find it. Sorry I'm
ignorant of Canadian circumstances, but I bet somewhere in the
Ottawa area is access to OCLC in some form. National Library,
perhaps? Perhaps Bill Collins can advise.
Now what was that about Seena Fazel's citation study? What did
he find?
Cheers
PJ
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: re: lay Baha`i
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 10:06:16 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Terry, I do not see any evidence of anti-intellectualism in this
discussion. Nor do I see how questioning the merits of using a
particular term could, in any sense, be construed as anti-intellectual.
However, speaking nonspecifically, I only hope that we, as a list, will
not, once again, return to the old pattern of defining the parameters of
what is and is not intellectual by confusing the single pointedness of
truth with onesidedness of understanding.
Warm regards,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:59:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: expertise
I'm amused at how this discussion has spun out of control, and the
original terms of debate have ended up being reversed or taken in
tangents. Electronic mail is the perfect postmodern form of
communication, discontinuous, ambiguous, impossible to nail down,
deconstructing itself, and constantly subject to Chaos in the sense of
nonlinear dynamic development.
We began, you will remember, with the question of provisional
translations and current policies regarding the quotation and translation
of the Writings by Baha'i scholars.
John and I pointed out that translation is key to writing scholarship,
and retranslation is often necessary in order to make technical points.
Just to give an example, in my article on *The Concept of Manifestation*
for ABS, published in 1982, I wanted to discuss some technical
philosophical points from Some Answered Questions, and to quote
`Abdu'l-Baha in my technical translation. (The current "official"
translation of Some Answered Questions is extremely flawed and is useless
for technical scholarship; this is now being remedied by the House). I
was instructed by the Research Department that I had to quote the current
translation, but could put more technical paraphrases in the footnotes.
My question is, "why?" If I were a Christian or Muslim theologian or
philosopher or historian, I would not have to be saddled with such Mickey
Mouse rules when I wrote. And the fact is, this sort of intererence with
scholarship makes it difficult to produce. Paraphrase is not always a
satisfactory alternative to quotation. I just don't understand what
would be wrong with quoting my translation and simply noting in a
parenthesis that it is my translation.
So, we began by pointing out that these extensive rules hem scholars in
and make it difficult to get anything done. And I said that
non-historians and non-philosophers shouldn't be making rules for
professional historians and philosophers.
My mild complaint was seized upon as a power-grab and an assertion of
elitism and a demand for deference and all sorts of things it was not.
Although I appreciate Sandy's canny commentary on post-Ph.D. depression,
I have to say that putting things this way misreads the problem. The
problem is not that Baha'i Middle East scholars feel underappreciated by
the community. With the exception of a couple of rude postings on
Talisman by people I do not know, I have always been treated very well by
the Baha'i community (no doubt better than I deserve), and don't seek any
special appreciation, and *certainly* not "deference" (as if there were a
danger of *that* from this crew)! Nor do I think such things are sought by
Moojan Momen, John Walbridge, Frank Lewis, Susan Stiles Maneck, Sholeh
Quinn or others. As for professional success, Baha'is in the Middle East
field appear to have done disproportionately well--History at Yale,
Harvard, Michigan, Ohio State;, two Persianists at Chicago, Islamics at
McGill, with people coming up through good and hard-to-get-into graduate
programs such as UCLA and UC-Berkeley. All of this is a remarkable
success story. The problem lies elsewhere.
You all know the story, told by `Abdu'l-Baha, about how two American
women pilgrims on their way to Haifa stopped in Alexandria to see Mirza
Abu'l-Fadl. They knocked on his door. No response. They knocked
again. A voice came from within, in accented English, "Mirza Abu'l-Fadl
is not home." :-)
Mirza Abu'l-Fadl sometimes needed to be left alone, in order to get some
work done. And with regard to the maze of regulations foisted upon us by
the Research Department, I would say most Baha'i Middle East scholars
feel a need to be left alone to get some work done. That's all.
Academic Baha'i scholarship is only one discourse among many in the
community, and it will become influential only if it competes well in the
market of Baha'i ideas. I should think it is obvious that it is and will
for long be a rather minority taste, and the idea of it becoming
hegemonic in the community strikes me as a fantasy. That it should be
available to the community in case aspects of it are found useful,
however, is very important. Those who fear its hegemony or deference to
it should please explain by what mechanisms any Baha'is will be
successfully made to wade through the philological discussions in *Baha'i
Studies Bulletin*!
The hidden debate here is not about the danger of this small and
relatively inaccessible discourse taking over; it is about whether it
should be allowed at all, as an alternative to literalism, esotericism or
administrationism, or should rather be carefully caged and perhaps even
crushed. The issue is pluralism and unity in diversity.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Newspaper coverage
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 11:27:33 EST
For an alternative measure of the Baha'i Faith's place in the
world of print, I looked at OCLC's FirstSearch Newspaper
Abstracts service, which draws upon 25 major U.S. newspapers.
Here's the order of citations of the six religious groups I've
been tracking: Christian Science, 539; Mormon, 359; Adventist,
155; Baha'i, 67; Spiritualist, 28; Theosophy, 5. The problem
here is that a large number of the entries under CS were
actually about a CS Monitor reporter kidnapped by the Bosnian
Serbs. Another anomaly is that many Adventist articles were
about hospitals rather than religion. Theosophists will
probably be less surprised at our dismal showing here than by
our unlikely relative success in terms of books.
In 1995 imprints, here are the numbers (all languages and
formats): Mormon 236, Adventist 82, Spiritualist 64, Christian
Science 30, Theosophy 19, Baha'i 18.
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:14:39 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: unmarried roomates, Dawnbreakers
Dear Everyone,
1. A few years ago a friend of mine became a Baha'i. At the
time he was sharing a house with a girl. The LSA asked him
to make other arrangments. Since it was the middle of the
semester, he reamined in the same house. At the end of the
term, she graduated and moved out - everybody was eventually
happy.
I think each situation is different and while Baha'is, I feel,
should not go looking for roomates of the opposite sex, if there
is no other option, a little patience can go a long way.
2. Dawnbreakers: parts of the Nabil's narrative were
approved by Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha - is there anyway
to tell which parts? Even if differing accounts of some
incidents are discovered, is that sufficient reason for
not publishing something - I would think that texts
inaccurately attributed to the Central Figures would be
one example where not ever publishing something would
be justified.
Since Shoghi Effendi states that future historians may
discover things which might differ from "God Passes By",
I would think the same would apply to the Dawnbreakers,
or at least parts of it. Afterall, the records in
Russia, Turkey and Iran have not still been researched
completely. And there remains all the books in the hands
of Baha'is in Iran or in the families of the early
believers who have no idea what they posses.
And the letter which Ahang posted from Shoghi Effendi,
it seems to me, could be a reflection of his surprise
that Zuhurul Haq differed from the Dawnbreakers and
his anxiety about finding the specifics.
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:09:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Marie-Louise Lundberg
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, Christopher Buck
Subject: Re: nuzul-i-tadriji (was:Re: Ma'dih-yi asmani & Suriy-i-Sabr)
Zaid:
The original texts of *Gleanings* in Arabic and Persian are available
from the German Baha'i Publishing Trust.
In the original of Gleanings 31, the words "progressive revelation" do
not appear. It simply says, "hatta: balagha 'l-amru"," "until the Matter
arrived at . . ."
To my knowledge there is no technical term for progressive revelation in
the Writings of the Bab or Baha'u'llah; they simply assumed that it is
the nature of religion to be progressively revealed, which is really also
a Quranic idea, so that it was not necessary to have a technical term. I
think the need only arose when the Guardian tried to explain the
Islamo-Baha'i schema to Western Christians, who distinguished between
Patriarchs, prophets, and the Son of God, and who therefore did not think
of Revelation as the same phenomenon through sacred history, and who in
any case thought it had stopped 2000 years ago.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 12:40:15 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Scholarship: policy recommendations
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Since Steve Birlund has suggested that things turn into policy
recommendations, so I will do so for my sort of scholarship: i.e.,
technical study of history and the writings in the original languages.
For convenience I will call this "scholarship," with the caveat that if
somebody wants to use the word to mean something else, they are not
talking about what I am talking about.
1. Scholarship needs to be left alone to function in its own realm. It should
*not* be required to conform to standards that would make it
understandable or appealing or unshocking to all believers. That is to say,
if Abbas Amanat writes a book on the Bab, it should not be required to
sound like *God Passes By* or *Dawn-Breakers*.
2. Administrative institutions should avoid interfering in scholarly affairs.
Academics should be left alone to run their affairs by their own standards.
If decisions are to be made that affect scholarship, they should either be
made by the scholars themselves or in close consultation with them.
3. Review should be abolished or made optional, either for all books, or
for scholarly books, or for books not published by Baha'i institutions.
4. Primary sources should be available to qualified scholars according to the
standards usually observed by archivists and librarians.
5. Enough community resources should be made available to allow Baha'i
scholarship to operate. That means there should be a few professional
positions funded. There should be a reasonable amount of grant money
available for the usual purposes: research leaves, fellowships for students,
conferences, travel funds, book subventions, etc.
What does this mean in practice? It would mean that for a project like
the *Baha'i Encyclopedia*, the people interested would have sought
funding and been responsible for the results. If the results are not good,
reviewers in journals can say so and the editors would presumably have
difficulty finding additional funding. If an NSA or the House of Justice
wished to encourage research in a particular area, they could provide
funding to those interested in pursuing it. Nima wants to go to graduate
school; he could compete for a Baha'i fellowship. If I want to do a
technical, annotated philosophical translation, fine. It would just be
understood that it was not official. If somebody doesn't like my translation,
they do not have to use it.
Such measures would remove most of the sources of friction involving
scholarship. They would encourage Baha'i scholars to undertake Baha'i
projects. They would allow young people to enter the field with
confidence that they would be able to afford to complete their studies
and would have support of various kinds from the community thereafter.
And these are not particularly radical proposals. They would essentially
provide the conditions that Catholic scholars work under (except that
we don't have colleges or universities to provide employment.)
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 13:47:52 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: assessing "the problem"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Jim, while I appreciate what you are saying and really prefer not to go
around griping about things - since I know this has a tendency to ultimately
just grate on people's nerves - I do think I have some justification for my
complaints about administrators and those close to the administration trying to
"own knowledge" and marginalizing various groups of people. I don't agree that
the problem was so much with who became Baha'is years ago as the fact that
there is a relatively small group of people who maintain control and don't
allow the community to take its course and grow. Of course, my main example is
with Baha'i scholarship, which has been chopped off at the roots. But there
are other examples as well.
I confess to having been immoderate in my speech yesterday. I was reacting to
the travails of a Baha'i who is tangling with the administration. I had just
learned additional details and was very angry. No doubt you would be too if
you had been presented with this information. In a highly centralized system
as we have, it does not good to take initiative, to just go out there and work
for the Cause if you are going to find yourself being throttled by
administrators for having done so. The case I am referring to is exactly such
a scenario.
When I read comments that suggest that the scholars in the Faith are arrogant
and demanding deference, I must say I have to laugh. They are virtually
invisible in the community. The defernce seekers I see are those who are "the
establishment." They are the ones with power and they want us to know it. I
have yet to see a posting from one of our Talismanian scholars suggesting that
the "proper tone" be used in addressing him or her.
Dear Eric, you too had an interesting posting, but I do not have time to pick
up on this thread right now. I am leaving town for a week and must get packed,
etc. Perhaps when I get back we can discuss this. Linda
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:00:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: re:unmarried man and woman in same house
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Saman,
The question is not that if the problem will go away. The question to
me is why this is a problem? Abdul Baha says that think of everybody as
your brothers and sisters and parents and you would KNOW how to behave.
If I think of somebody as a sister, and if she is in trouble my first
reaction would be to help her out, say give her shelter. I just do not
understand HOW that comes into conflict with this so-called Bahai Law.
Only Bahai law, time and again affirmed by all the principal figures of
the faith is chastity which is no way related to this issue. Also what
bothers me is that the moment a believer declares the assemblies seem
to be eager to inform them of this so-called law. Why is this eagerness
not displayed rather in helping the new-believer connect his/her heart
to Bahaullah. About "neighbours talking" you cannot stop it even if
you are married and give shelter to someone else. Though most of the time
it seems that only Bahais do the talking, the rest of the world has
enough problem of its own.
Anyway personally I am planning to get married soon and I hope this issue
won't bother me anymore. I guess that's why Bahaullah designated family
as the "fortress" designated to protect you from these man-made problems.
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 16:54:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 5
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
We were listing extracts from the Writings of the Bab which Fadil
has included in ZH-3 and I like to continue with cataloguing
these in the belief that it might be of some interest to the
western friends and would ease the search for those who read the
original.
I am fully aware that these lists and associated comments suffers
from much deficiencies and possible inaccuracies, and as such
would love nothing more but to be guided and corrected by my
learned brothers on Talisman.
P270-71: Arabic, 1.4 pages, a prayer of the Bab which must have
been revealed after His pilgrimage journey as in it refers to
fulfilling His duty to "rajul ma`ruf" (the well-known man) who
was met at "masjidu'l-Haram". I believe this is a reference to
the meeting with Mirza Muhit-i Kirmani. Although it could also
be a reference to the Sheriff of Mecca. (Somebody please
enlighten me.) Again, in the prayer/Tablet, He laments on
people's rejection of His message.
P271-5: Arabic, 4 pages, this is an important Tablet where the
Bab names certain people He encountered on the course of His
pilgrimage such as Mirza Muhit, Haj Siyyid Ali Kirmani, Haj
Siyyid Muhammad Khurasani, Haj Sulayman-Khan, Haj Muhammad-Ali
Mazandarani; His invitation to Mirza Hasan-i Guhar for
"mubahilh" (a form of religious debate); refers to false claims
of Haj Muhammad-Karim Khan-i Kirmani; gives the number of
Tablets, prayers, homilies revealed on the course of pilgrimage
as 50 items; and generally surveys the events of the first year
of His Ministry.
P275-82: Arabic, 7.5 pages, a very important Tablet where He
outlines the events of Shiraz after His return back from
pilgrimage and outlines His comments at the Masjid-j Vakil where
He indicated where assembled in excess of a thousand people some
of whom intended on harming Him.
P282-3: Arabic, 0.3 pages,
P283-4: Arabic, 0.2 pages, points out that acceptance or
rejection of the Cause makes no difference to Haqq (the Truth).
P283-6: Persian, 3 pages, this is a proof Tablet where the Bab
seeks to establish the validity of His claim. States that one of
the proofs is that He has produces a Book in the style of Qur'an
and were the entire people of the earth assembled, none could
fathom its inner meaning, (I believe this is a reference to
Qayyumu'l-Asma). Then says, were all that dwell on earth to
assist one another, they would fail to produce a single verse of
this Book and if they produced one, it would be a synthetic of
Qur'anic words. States that He completed the Commentary on the
Sura of Joseph in 40 days, each day writing a little. Says that
whenever He wants to write anything, Ruhu'llah (the Spirit of God
[Jesus?]) will inspire Him. Offers as evidence, a recently
revealed "sahifih" (treatise) where it was completed in one day,
and invites others to do likewise, if able. Categorically states
that none among the learned may write as rapidly as He can and
offers this as further testimony for His truth. Says that the
entire creation (based on knowledge) is like the pen He holds
(lifeless).
P287: Arabic, 0.5 pages, on the station of earlier figures
(Imams, etc.)
P286-7: Arabic, 0.2 pages, mentioning what has been revealed
should suffice all (to recognize Him).
P287: Arabic, 0.1 pages, a prayer, mentioning that He has
revealed numerous Books.
P287: Arabic, 0.3 pages, defending the style of His composition
(which had come under attacked by the divines).
(P287:8: Persian, 1 pages, a Tablet of Baha'u'llah where He
comments on gradually unfolding station of the Bab and says this
was due to people's inability to comprehend His true station from
the beginning.)
P290-91: Arabic, 1.3 pages, regarding the number, style, types
of materials revealed from 1260H to 1262H in Shiraz.
P305: Arabic, 0.5 pages, addressed to Mirza Muhammad-Ali
Qazvini, one of the Letters of the Living, where He outlines the
condition of the seeker and the manner in which one embark on
search after truth.
P305-6: Arabic, 0.2 pages, a portion of the ziyarat-i jam`ih-i
saghirih (the shorter Tablet of Visitation for the 14
Immaculates) where Mirza Muhammad-Ali Qazvini (one of the
Letters) and his father Hajji Abdu'l-Vahhab-i Qazvini are
mentioned.
P331: Arabic, 0.2 page, regarding the purity of Tahirih,
revealed after the Badasht conference.
P331-2: Arabic, 0.3 page, again another extract supporting
Tahirih and her station.
P332-33: Arabic, 1.5 pages, a Tablet addressed to Hajji
Muhammad-i Qazvini which Tahirih is the dominant theme.
P333-34: Arabic, 0.5 pages, a Tablet addressed to Tahirih where
she is instructed in observing moderations and wisdom in her
teaching activities and her speech.
P402-5: Arabic, 3 pages, a Tablet of the Bab addressed to Mulla
Muhammad-Ja`far-i Kirmani.
P424-6: Arabic, 2 pages, a Tablet of Visitation for Quddus.
This Tablet was revealed after a passing of 6 months from the
news of Quddus's martyrdom (16 May) during which time the
billowing ocean of the Bab's revelation was stilled. At the
beginning of the Tablet, twice, each three times, the Bab evokes
the name of Quddus: "Quddusun, Quddusun, Quddus." However the
text of this Tablet is incomplete.
[I like to take this opportunity to express my profound
gratitude to the Research Department of the Universal House
of Justice for providing me with the full text of this
Tablet of Visitation to be used in the forthcoming book on
Quddus. Their constant support and encouragement is deeply
appreciated and will be properly acknowledged. ahang.]
(P459: Arabic, 0.1 page, a sentence from a Tablet of Baha'u'llah
where Aqa Siyyid Husayn-i Yazdi's memory is exalted.)
P460: Arabic, 0.1 page, a sentence from a Tablet of the Bab
where reference is made to Siyyid Husayn-i Yazdi, surnamed,
`Aziz, and referred to as the essence of knowledge and wisdom.
P.460-61, Arabic, 1.2 pages, a Tablet addressed to Aqa Siyyid
Ahmad (the father of Siyyid Husayn-i Yazdi).
P478-79: Arabic, 0.4 page, a portion of Qayyumu'l-Asma in which
reference is made to Siyyid Ja`far-i Kashfi (father of Vahid-i
Darabi). Due to its beauty and importance, I offer a provisional
translation:
"O Solace of My eyes! Say unto the renowned learned-one,
Ja`far-i `Alavi: thou art of the righteous if thou prostrate
thyself before the Gate of God as thou art among the favored
and accepted ones in this Mother Book. And God Himself
testifieth on thy behalf. Know thou, verily, that without
the confirmation of the Gate, thou will not be able to set
blazon the world. And of truth, thou will not succeed in
teaching the mountains [the divines] without the help of the
Remembrance, Who is sent as the supreme Word unto the
dwellers of the earth and heavens. And if thou wert to
embrace His Cause, know assuredly that We shall exalt thee
over all that is in both worlds and that verily, through
God's consent, in the world beyond and in most exalted
paradise thou shalt dwell with Us. God testifieth to all
things. Know thou that which God hath revealed unto you, has
a certain wisdom. So anticipate the Great Truth of His Cause
and assist the Great Remembrance Who is this Arabian Youth.
Thou art among the beloved in this Mother Book."
P479: Arabic, 0.2 page, a portion of a Tablet where the Bab
praises Sana-barq, a book by Siyyid Ja`far Kashfi. In part this
Tablet says (my tentative translation):
"I have read 'Sana-barq' of Ja`far-i Alavi and beheld secrets
of its verses. He verily hath known his own self and
expressed his servitude unto His Threshold. Regarding the
relations of the Messenger of God [Muhammad], Upon Him be
peace, has unraveled the truth in form of a commentary on a
revealed prayers [by Imams]."
P479: Arabic, 0.2 page, another extract in praise of Sana-barq
of Siyyid Ja`far Kashfi.
P479: Persian, 0.2 page, a portion of Dala'il-Sab`ih (the Seven
Proofs) where the Bab recalls Vahid-i Darabi in such terms:
"Behold again the number of the name of God (Vahid)! This
man was living a holy, peaceful life in such a way that no
one could deny his talents or his sanctity, all admired his
greatness in the sciences and the heights he had attained in
wisdom. Refer to the commentary of the Suratu'l-Kawthar and
to the other treatises written for him, which prove how high
a place he occupies in the sight of God!"
(to be continued)
lovingly, ahang.
=END=
Date: 20 Dec 95 14:48:00 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Lay Baha'is
Dear Talismanians,
What's all this fuss about L.A. Baha'is? Why, L.A. Baha'is are some of
the finest people I know! Sure, some of 'em think they're special, but
hey, some of 'em *are* special!
Never mind.
Love,
David
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Scholarship
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:16:19 -0600 (CST)
Talismanians,
I have asked this question several times before and have never received
an answer (except from people who were not involved):
Why this pattern of defining academic Baha'i scholarship as Middle East
studies? Is that a restriction on the use of the term which has been
placed by the World Centre?
I am asking this question sincerely in hopes of acquiring some
understanding. I honestly do not understand why certain people on this
list persist in using this term that way. Do they see something about the
scope of legitimate academic knowledge of the faith I don't? I am fully
willing to admit that such might be the case. If so, can someone clarify
it for me (minus the sometimes frequent appeals to anti-intellectualism)?
Mark (Foster)
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:35:20 +1300 (NZDT)
To: Sadra , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Techne (re: lay Bahai)
Dear Nima,
You wrote a long letter giving your rather condescending view
of Greek philosophy and ended up saying:
> All Juan, Terry, John, Linda, myself and others are saying is let
>the technicians to their craft (techne), and nothing more. Why this should
>sound threatening or elitist to some is quite beyond me.
My comment is this. You are not right. Something more is being said and
it is not being owned up to. I do not intend chasing that which is very
street wise and slippery. The Taoist in me is utterly disinclined. But I
come from blunt and honest people and am blunt, so I'll leave you with a
(but one) quotation from Dr J R Cole for you to ponder. After you have
read it ask yourself whether we're really talking about a bunch of humble
translators (the "grammarians"of the SV, and not necessarily the "learned
in el Abha") or whatnot...
Juan recently wrote: "Of course, all this is only put forward tentatively
and awaits the imprimatur of our foremost living Baha'i philosopher and
Suhrawardi expert, John Walbridge."
This kind is stuff is repugnant.
Robert.
P.S. First Terry, then you. The old lynch mob forming, huh? Where's Chis?
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:49:52 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Scholarship
Mark wrote, repeatedly:
>
>Why this pattern of defining academic Baha'i scholarship as Middle East
>studies? Is that a restriction on the use of the term which has been
>placed by the World Centre?
How about an answer folks? And while you're at it I like some intelligent
comment on the Socrates/Native Manifestattions letters. We spent months
arguing these. And when the light comes these great philosophers and
historians immediately dive under the nearest rock.
Methinks the there is a major lack of intellectual honesty on Talisman. If
John and Linda and Juan (et al) wanted to set a up list upon which they
could share their grizzles about the Faith they should have said so. I
came here for scholarship, and there are a few good scholars here...imho...
Some of the best have fled in disgust though...
Robert.
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 22:51:29 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Sonja: cohabitation
To: talisman@indiana.edu
FROM: Sonja van Kerkhoff
Re: co-habitation.
When I was 17 I flatted in a house with two men who were roughly
10-15 years older than me, and it was a wonderful opportunity for a
young niave dairy farmer's daughter to learn how to relate to men,
without romance or threat.
I think they also enjoyed living in the house with me as both were
usually shy with women, and so it was an opportunity for us to become
friends.
In New Zealand, as far as I was aware of, flatting in a house with men
or women was not an issue, and if anything, because you were sharing
a house (like sharing a business in a way) I always felt safer with these
men, than ones I'd meet anywhere else.
I am sure that I learnt a lot about learning to relate to men with the
detachment usually associated with 'girl friends', from these experiences.
Around 6 flats, several cities and 3 years later, I declared, and after
some months, one Bahai suggested that it might not be proper for me to
be flatting in the house with 3 men. Well, I couldn't stop laughing. I
took it as a joke, and perhaps no other Bahai around me said anything
because of my reaction! Although, there were others mixed flatting as
well, and it wasn't an issue as far as I was aware of.
I'd even advocate that it is healthier to mix flat than not, because here
are idle opportunities to learn how to relate to men and women and to
develop friendships, without all the hype of romance.
I found it noticable during my days as a trainee nurse, that the women
who swooned over men, tended to be ones, who had never lived in the
same house with them!
THe idea that mixed flatting implies inchastity is as crazy as the
thinking that a woman must wear a chador so that a man's desires are
contained.
arohanui, Sonja
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: "talisman@indiana.edu" ,
"AGhosh@uh.edu"
Subject: RE: unmarried man and woman in same house
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 14:19:18 -0800
Praise and salutations for your common sense, my friend! Your point is
eloquent and true.
Hannah
----------
From: AGhosh@uh.edu[SMTP:AGhosh@uh.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, 20 December, 1995 11:00 AM
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re:unmarried man and woman in same house
Though most of the time
it seems that only Bahais do the talking, the rest of the world has
enough problem of its own.
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 16:50:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: sharing house,marriage
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Well, the marriage is still one year away. Thanks all for the congratulations.
She is half-a-world away . So there's no problem with chastity (-:. And I
did not print marriage cards also, so hopefully there's no problem with
the law of engagement (-:.
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:41:04 +1300 (NZDT)
To: "K. Paul Johnson" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Techne (re: lay Bahai)
Dear K. Paul,
Yeah: maybe you're right.. it is a joke. But as Freud knew, a
joke is more than a just a joke... I'd like ...I say, I'd like... a little
honesty around here, son... ;-}
Bud and I are collecting birds.....
...and Foghorn is a most welcome addition to the aviary...
The sky cracks wide with a smile....
Robert.
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:00:38 PST8PDT
Subject: (Blunt) Elites and Counter-Elites/ wasRe: Techne (re: lay Bahai)
Hi Robert/Talismanians,
If I recall correctly, Abdu'l-Baha *did* denounce the
weaknesses and elitist tendencies of the western
educational system. Not sure if he was specifically
addressing a European or American audience, does
anybody have references?.
Also, somewhere in Taherzadeh's "Revelation" series,
there is commentary regarding a tablet of Baha'u'llah
in which the attributes (signs/names?) of God converse
with themselves. The highest attribute is knowledge,
but it weeps because attachment to it is the thing that
keeps man from God.
Of course we have heard the story of the raindrops and
the dog again, and have been reminded for the millionth
time of the moral decline of the educated religious
classes at the time and in the land of the birth of the
Faith, and their rejection of the Cause and subsequent
nefarious role in the persecution of the Founders and
Dawnbreakers.
On the other hand, I assume that you accept the elevation
of some sort of special status for both mystical/Baha'i
"learning/arts" and a system of organizing "material" or
applied knowledge as various quotations from the writings
made here lately indicate is proper.
Since I'm not aware of any institutional OR consensus
definition of such "Baha'i Scholarship" at this time, I
have a naive question:
Do you have any suggestions as to how to proceed toward a
better understanding of what the future Baha'i system of
organizing knowledge is to be (as well as the steps to be
taken to create a system of education revolving around the
release of spiritual potential), or are we to forever wallow
in this pigsty of asinine personal niggling and sniping?
Yes, I love you too (in a dysfunctional sort of way),
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
> Date sent: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:35:20 +1300 (NZDT)
> To: Sadra , talisman@indiana.edu
> From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
> Subject: Re: Techne (re: lay Bahai)
> Dear Nima,
> You wrote a long letter giving your rather condescending view
> of Greek philosophy and ended up saying:
...snip
> This kind is stuff is repugnant.
>
>
> Robert.
>
> P.S. First Terry, then you. The old lynch mob forming, huh? Where's Chis?
>
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 18:01:44 EST
Subject: Re: trained bear acts
Good Golly Ms. Molly,
with the aid of Mr. Jolly,
will "throw out the rascals"
Buffalo bagles and all,
and build a 'new society'
by using old world tools.
HO! HO! HO! MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Now, where are my toys?
loving learning living,
Quanta
*** ***
* *
*
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 18:04:47 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: "Scholarship"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Mark Foster queries the use of the term "scholarship" to refer to what
people with specialized training Middle East studies, historiography, etc.,
do when they work and asks where this usage comes from and whether it
has the imprimatur of the World Center. It doesn't, of course, since the
House of Justice defines "scholarship" as what every believer does when he
thinks about the Faith.
The basis of the usage is that there really are two quite different ways to
approach studying the Faith. One way is to go to the writings, Baha'i
history, etc., for inspiration and guidance. This is what the House means by
"scholarship." This also includes enterprises like applying Baha'i principles
to family or addiction therapy.
The other is the academic, scientific (in the German sense) enterprise of
using scholarly tools to find out where the Faith comes from, what exactly
the writings mean in terms of their cultural context, etc. A good part of
this involves specialized skills in Arabic and Persian, historiography,
Islamic intellectual history, etc. There are some related areas like local
Baha'i history that pose similar problems but require slightly different sets
of skills and mental attitudes.
Anyway, it is obvious that these are fundamentally two different
enterprises. The second is most commonly called "scholarship," for lack of
a better term. I occasionally call it "Baha'i orientalism," which slights
people like Rob Stockman and Will van den Hoonaard and offends my
orientalist friends who consider "orientalist" a pejorative term. One is not
better than the other, although the second kind of scholarship requires
special skills that usually take a long time and considerable effort to
acquire.
How about we just call scholarship (2) "Baha'iwissenschaft"?
The enterprises are related, however. You need the Baha'iwissenschaft
folks if you are going to have new translations, if you want to know what
are plausible, implausible, and impossible interpretations of particular
passages, etc., if you want to know whose grave you should pray at as your
country's first believer, etc.
The prohibition of unrelated men and women sharing a flat is a policy, not
a law. The nearest laws are chastity and the permission to employ a maid
without marrying her.
As for Socrates, I thought the issue was settled. Abdu'l-Baha's account is
based on a popular, though historically confused, Islamic account of the
Greek philosophers--"according to certain Eastern histories"--with an added
complication, Socrates' visit to the Holy Land, that results from a
simplification of the tradition, probably as a result of Abdu'l-Baha citing
the story from memory.
As for my claim to be the Baha'i Faith's expert on Suhrawardi--since the
death of Dr. Ali-Murad Davudi and until the conversion of my good friend
Hossein Ziai, I am to the best of my knowledge the Baha'i Faith's only
expert on Suhrawardi, the more's the pity. You could invite all the world's
Suhrawardi specialists to one big dinner party.
john walbridge
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 18:31:28 EST
Subject: Re: assessing "the problem"
It appears that my friend Mr. Wootten have some valid points about
the competitive atmosphere between the empiricists, rationalists and
mysticists within religion. The solution which he provided in
assessing and the resolving the problem was investigating the
possibility of third Divinity which was servitude and applying it as
a synthesis between divinity of matter and the divinity of spirit.
Or, shall we say bring the heart and the brain together with the aid
of lungs? What is knowledge without love, and culminating with
servitude? A possible place to look at for an Example is to the
Mystery of God, the Servant of Baha in this Day.
loving learning living
quanta
*** ***
* *
*
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 16:05:07 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: re:unmarried man and woman in same house
Dear Arindam,
First, congradulation on your upcoming marriage (and Stephen's from New
York as well).
You asked what the "problem" was with unmarried people of the
opposite sex sharing a home.
While I agree with you that it is the Baha'is that do most of the
talking, we do need to be concerned about what non-Baha'is may
think and not always say.
I think the situation is analogus to the behavior of a non-Muslim living
in a Muslim country during the month of Muslim fasting: it would not
be prudent to have a lunch picnic in a situation like that.
Granted that my example is not completely simialr but I am trying
to make the point about prudence - if we preach chastity, then
we should be careful about appearances. Now I am talking about
living like monks but choosing to live with a member of the
opposite sex when one has other options seems unwise to me even
though both parties may be mature adults in complete control
of their desires.
Ofcourse, there are exceptions: if someone is in dire straits
and needs a place to stay, etc., I personally do not see a
problem.
And as Tony mentioned, the House's recent letter regarding
homosexuality re-emphasises the fact that LSA should not go
around digging into the personal lives of the community.
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Techne (re: lay Bahai)
To: Robert Johnston
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 17:18:50 EST
Cc: nima@unm.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
According to Robert Johnston:
>
> Juan recently wrote: "Of course, all this is only put forward tentatively
> and awaits the imprimatur of our foremost living Baha'i philosopher and
> Suhrawardi expert, John Walbridge."
>
> This kind is stuff is repugnant.
> Robert.
1. To quote Foghorn Leghorn, "That's a joke, son."
2. Repugnant not in a vacuum, but to you. For me, what's
repugnant is stuff like this:
>
> P.S. First Terry, then you. The old lynch mob forming, huh? Where's Chis?
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:46:41 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Baha'i Encyclopedia Project Latest News .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians .
The National Spiritual Assembly at it's meeting last week-end , took
the decision to reactivate the Encyclopedia Project and appoint a new
General Editor . It is hoped to have the first volume out by 1997.
I believe that is good news .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Re: "Scholarship"
To: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:53:52 -0600 (CST)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
John,
Thanks for the note. My Internet provider is sick again today, so I am
responding to this message from online . Unfortunately, I will not be
able to correct my initial draft of this message. So, please excuse any
typos, etc.
I appreciate your clarification of your view of Baha'i scholarship. My
immediate response, however, is that there is more than the dichotomy of
"orientalism" vs. non-academic deepening. My question dealt with the
limitations imposed on academic Baha'i scholarship, and orientalism
(which, as you seemed to imply, has sometimes been used in a colonial or
neo-coloniial overtones). My point was that there are additional forms of
*academic* Baha'i scholarship which would not fall under the heading of
orientalism. However, on Talisman, the term seems to be used in a more
restrictive sense - to refer to those involved in translation, study of
the primary sources (Baha'i theology, for instance, or, as I believe Juan
once suggested in an _World Order_ magazine article, "theophanology").
I was questioning whether this more restrictive use of the term might be
problematic. I have repeated seen signs of disunity apparently caused by
this more restrictive usage). Why not just say:
Baha'i-oriented historiography
Baha'i-oriented theology
Baha'i-oriented philosophy
Baha'i-oriented Near East studies
Baha'i-oriented sociology
Baha'i-oriented anthropology
Baha'i-oriented literary criticism of the Guardian's writings,
etc.?
Wouldn't that be clearer, more specific, and less productive of divisions?
Mark (Foster)
=END=
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 13:11:34 +1300 (NZDT)
To: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: "Scholarship"
ffolks,
John is to be thanked for the distinction he draws between two forms
of scholarship. At least we all know now what he and Juan (and Terry and
Nima et al) are on about. It seems that John and Juan feel they have some
kind of superiority with regards to the second kind, and while I think it
is dangerous to boast of one's riches, I am not going to dispute their
claims. More power to them, indeed. I have no expertise at all in Middle
Eastern studies, do not know the languages... And am hardly interested,
actually...
John wrote:
>
>Anyway, it is obvious that these are fundamentally two different
>enterprises.
And added:
>The enterprises are related, however.
Not THAT related though, it seems. Distant cousins, perhaps. This is
evident in the latter part of the letter where John writes:
>As for Socrates, I thought the issue was settled. Abdu'l-Baha's account is
>based on a popular, though historically confused, Islamic account of the
>Greek philosophers--"according to certain Eastern histories"--with an added
>complication, Socrates' visit to the Holy Land, that results from a
>simplification of the tradition, probably as a result of Abdu'l-Baha citing
>the story from memory.
This -- as I have said -- runs contrary to -- or is at least represents a
serious misunderstanding of -- the Research Dept's findings, based on the
W[w]ritings:
"To date, we have no documentary evidence to support the Master's statement
concerning what is "recorded in eastern histories" about Socrates' visiting
the Holy Land [11]. Baha'is accept the "authority [of 'Abdu'l-Baha] on
this matter" [13], since we believe that He had "an intuitive knowledge"
[13] and since He affirmed the source of the report [4]."
There is no sense of confusion here. The source is unknown, yet the fact
is affirmed. The Guardian's view that the Master knew the fact through
intuition is stated. Clearly John simply has not accepted this, but has
chosen to re-interpret, insisting on a humanistic-atheistic-materialistic
epistemolgy. Hence it is clear to me that John's form of scholarship is
not in accord with that which he himself associates with the House... And
this makes ALL the difference so far as I am concerned. I would not give
the name "Baha'i philosopher" to anyone who disputed with the views of the
Guardian or the House...
If we are to accord each person due recognition, then the F(f)ounders of
the Faith must be given theirs, in the first instance. This is the
foundation of stone of the Faith. If I have to say this too many more
times, I shall beg God to allow me to leave this list...
Robert.
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 18:18:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Paul Easton
To: "Mark A. Foster"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Scholarship
On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Mark A. Foster wrote:
> Why this pattern of defining academic Baha'i scholarship as Middle East
> studies?
Good question. I would be the first to agree that there is no way to
seriously study the Baha'i Faith with out some background in Middle
Eastern History, but at the same time there is no way one could
understand the faith *today* if one's head is stuck in the sands of Arabia.
For example how could you do a serious study of the development of
Baha'i Administration without a knowledge of North American history and
political philosophy?
Similarly, as more converts are made in Asia and Africa and as more
believers from these areas become increasingly prominent in the
International Baha'i Community, we are bound to see the faith go in new
directions. A great percentage of the Baha'is in the world are in India
and China, Russia and Africa are all still fertile ground for new
converts. If the understanding of our past necessitates an understanding
of the Mid-East and America, could not an understanding of our future
require an understanding of these ancient hearths of humanity?
Baha'i Studies are certainly not the same as Mid-Eastern Studies, no
more than Christian Studies are.
...Last final tomorrow...just a warning ;)
_____________________________________________________________________________
Paul C. Easton
_____________________________________________________________________________
HOME || WORK
________________________________________||___________________________________
2321 Jersey Street || UW-Stevens Point
Stevens Point, WI 54481 || International Programs
|| Stevens Point, WI 54481-3897
PHONE: (715) 344-4174 || PHONE: (715) 346-2717
E-MAIL: peaston@worf.uwsp.edu || FAX: (715) 346-3591
________________________________________||___________________________________
O Lord! make us firm in Thy love and cause us to be loving toward the
whole of mankind. Confirm us in service to the world of humanity, so
that we may become the servants of Thy servants, that we may love all Thy
creatures and become compassionate to all Thy people. -`Abdu'l-Baha'
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 18:39:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Paul Easton
To: AGhosh@uh.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: sharing house,marriage
On Wed, 20 Dec 1995 AGhosh@uh.edu wrote:
> Well, the marriage is still one year away. Thanks all for the congratulations.
> She is half-a-world away . So there's no problem with chastity (-:. And I
> did not print marriage cards also, so hopefully there's no problem with
> the law of engagement (-:.
SPEEEAKING of which...
My girlfriend and I have plans to get married. However we are holding it
off until I graduate ( her mother thinks that's important and I guess I'd
have to agree ), so we haven't engaged. I'm aware that "westerners" (what
does THAT mean?) are not beholden to the 95 day law, but I figure any law
the Persians can follow, I can follow myself ( I always assumed the UHJ
pampers us because they don't want to scare new belivers away with
"strange and foreign" ordinances ).
My question is: what is engagement? I mean OFFICIALLY? Is it the paying
of the dowry and obtaining parental consent? Is it when you send out an
invitation?
Currently when local Baha'is ask if Wan-Ru and I are getting married I
answer "we're thinking about it." If I say "Yes, but we haven't set a
date yet" would I be going against the 95 day law?
Lastly, I would be interested in learning more about the history and
surrounding circumstances of this law.
Yours,
Paul Easton - peaston@worf.uwsp.edu
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:43:16 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Talisman
Subject: Hello
Well, Steve Friberg is visiting from Japan. He's in town visiting his
dad and brother, and we've wandered over to the computer lab to try to
get him telnetted over to his account in Japan. But it won't let him
long on. Steve just wants to say:
"I visited three New Mexican Talismanians: Nima, Brent, and Enrico. Words,
delightedly absorbed, have been transformed into even more delightful flesh,
blood, heart and warmth. Nima sold me six books on Islamic and Sufi
philosophy at the bookstore he has so patiently stocked, Enrico, I
discovered, was from Italy, my favorite country, and Brent seems the
true examplar of warmth and love. All agree on the marvelousness of
Talisman!"
One more thing. I don't often get to brag about New Mexico, but now I'm
going to. To y'all from fancy places: Yesterday we had winter. Today
I've been in shirtsleeves all day. Nyaaah.
Love
Brent
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 14:15:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: "carmen@ucla.edu" <"carmen@ucla.edu"@esds01.mrgate.bmoa.umc.dupont.com>,
talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Tahirih Bibliography?
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Every year in August/September a major scholarly event is held at
Landegg academy where researchers, mostly from North America and
Europe, share papers and engage in discussions. Each gathering
has a specific theme.
1991 session was devoted to studies on Tahirih. The papers
presented there (all in Persian) were compiled under the title:
"Khush-ha`i az kharman-i-adab va hunar", vol. 3, Landegg, 1992,
183 pages. At the end of this volume, the most comprehensive
bibliography that I'm aware of on Tahirih was assembled -- 180
references to books, papers, research articles on her life and
writings. A supplement of 5 items was included in vol 4,
published in 1993. Both lists are in Persian.
Perhaps someone who knows Persian in your community (and rumor
has it that a few Persians have been sighted in southern
California) can assist with extracting the needed information.
A bibliography of Tahirih in English is included in the same
series, vol 4. It lists 206 references.
Therefore, in these two books a total of 391 references are
listed on Tahirih.
best wishes, ahang.
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 18:30:37 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: re:unmarried man and woman in same house
Hello All...
What ever happen to raising the standard? Rising above the standard of our
society around us, and setting the example?
If we act, think, and do like society, then what business do we have being
Bahai's?
Warmly, Margreet
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 21:56:15 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Food fights
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Esteemed members:
I am leaving town to spend a week with my parents. I hope that I can trust
you to behave in my absence. To help you do so, I am taking my good wife
along.
We will, alas, be out of contact with the internet. My mother is of the
opinion that opening her home to the information superhighway will result
in the house being filled with road dust and diesel fumes.
John Walbrige
List Owner
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 22:19:53 EST
Subject: botanists & farmers
According to botanists,
the soil needs nitrogen
when planting corn,
potassium for the bean.
A plant transports water,
through its xylem,
nutrients via phloem,
by the roots
from the soil.
He explains mechanics
of plant growth,
using his knowledge and tools.
The farmer on other hand,
lives on the land,
ploughs the soil,
pulls out the weeds
and sows the seeds,
tends to crops
then harvests the fields
to feed the botanist.
Farmer knows the soul
of Mother Earth,
but botanist get more rewards
for what he knows
in social and economic goods,
while farmer may be truly NOBLE!
for keeping life to flow.
love learn serve,
Quanta Dawn-Light
*** ***
* *
*
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 21:23:26 -0600 (CST)
From: John Bromberek
Subject: The Disconnected Letters
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Greetings All,
Begging your pardon, but before everyone disappears on holiday I
thought I might sneak in another of my idle questions.
According to Taherzadeh (_Revelation of Baha'u'llah_, V. 1, p. 126)
the Fifth Imam specified that certain of the isolated letters of the
Qur'an added up to the date of the appearance of the Qa'im. I'm
wondering whether anyone on Talisman might be familiar with this
tradition and know which of the letters he had referred to.
___________________________________________________________________
In the spirit of giving a little (while I take), here below, for
your amusement, is a mildly interesting, merely coincidental,
arrangement of these letters which I came up with about ten years ago.
There were actually two similar arrangements that I noticed, but this
is the simpler of them. Both yield the result of 1260.
First, here is a listing of the various combinations of disconnected
letters found in the Qur'an, and the numbers of the Surahs in which
they occur. (Sorry for the make-shift transliteration.)
LETTER COMBINATIONS SURAHS IN WHICH THEY OCCUR
Alif Lam Mim ---------- 2 3 29 30 31 32
Alim Lam Mim Sad ------ 7
Alif Lam Ra ----------- 10 11 12 14 15
Alif Lam Mim Ra ------- 13
Kaf Ha Ya Ain Sad ----- 19
Ta Ha ----------------- 20
Ta Sin Mim ------------ 26 28
Ta Sin ---------------- 27
Ya Sin ---------------- 36
Sad ------------------- 38
Ha Mim ---------------- 40 41 43 44 45 46
Ha Mim & Ain Sin Qaf--- 42
Qaf ------------------- 50
Nun ------------------- 68
And, here is the arrangement and calculations (the explanation of the
calculated values is below the table):
LETTER NUMBER COMBINATION NUMBER OF WHOLE NUMBER**
COMBINATIONS OF ABJAD LETTERS IN THE MULTIPLICATION
OCCURRENCES VALUE COMBINATION & DIVISION
Alif Lam Mim 6 x 71 / 3 = 142
Alim Lam Mim Sad 1 x 161 / 4 = 40
Alif Lam Ra 5 x 231 / 3 = 385
Alif Lam Mim Ra 1 x 271 / 4 = 67
Kaf Ha Ya Ain Sad 1 x 195 / 5 = 39
Ta Ha 1 x 14 / 2 = 7
Ta Sin Mim 2 x 109 / 3 = 72
Ta Sin 1 x 69 / 2 = 34
Ya Sin 1 x 70 / 2 = 35
Sad 1 x 90 / 1 = 90
Ha Mim 6 x 48 / 2 = 144
Ha Mim & Ain Sin Qaf 1 x 278 / 5 = 55
Qaf 1 x 100 / 1 = 100
Nun 1 x 50 / 1 = 50
14 Combinations-----29 Surah's------------------TOTALS---------- 1260
** By whole number division is meant that when dividing one number by
another only the resulting whole number is retained. The fraction is
discarded. For instance, 7 divided by 2 would be 3 (rather than 3.5).
The calculation of the number in the last column goes like this:
Multiply the (Number of Occurrences) times the (Combination Value)
and divide this product by the (Number of Letters in the Combination).
(# OF OCCUR) x (VALUE) / (# OF LETTERS) = (Last Column #)
______________________________________________________________________
BTW, I do expect to get back to finishing up that series on
Astronomical Curiosities before too very long (Part 3). I've got
a few free days; so, if the spirit moves me, I'll take a little time
and write it up.
______________________________________________________________________
John Bromberek
Mechanical Engineer
University of Ark. Physical Plant
Fayetteville, Arkansas
johnb@intellinet.com
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 22:36:07 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Disconnected letters
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Certain suras (chapters) of the Qur'an start with one or more isolated
letters, the second, for example with the combination A-L-M. Even in
medieval times there was no explanation of these letters, and no
generally accepted explanation has ever been proposed.
Somewhere there is a tablet in which Baha'u'llah reads these as a
prophecy of the date of the Bab. When my teacher of such things
(Vahid Rafati) tried to explain it to me many years ago, I am
afraid that my mind wandered.
On that front, however, some years ago a Muslim computerized the text
of the Qur'an and did a number of elaborate calculations finding various
numerological correlations, most based on the number 19. His argument
was that patterns of this complexity could not be by chance and could
not have been inserted by Muhammad. Therefore, the Qur'an is divinely
inspired. In effect, we can do a checksum on the Qur'an to prove its
authenticity. He ended up setting up a sort of Muslim cult in the US.
I seem to recall that he was murdered a few years ago. There are books of
his around in which he expounds this theory.
I presume also that his calculations are related to Louis Farrakhan's interest
in the number 19, although perhaps somebody who listened to the whole speech
can correct me.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 21:47:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Yet another suggestion
Dear Everyone,
It seems that the temperature on Talisman is being affected
by the cold front that is producing a good amount of snowfall
in North America - brrrr!
Now for something completely different: a suggestion regarding
scholarship (in its broadest sense):
Whenever a Baha'i wants to publish something, he/she be required
to send a copy of it to a Baha'i review committee at the same time
as he/she sends it for publication. The review committee could not
stop its publication, but this would allow the Administration of the
Faith to know in advance of a work which it might find problematic -
if so, then the Baha'i Administration can respond with its objections:
in case of a journal article, the Administration can send a rebuttal
to the magazine (the McEoin vs. Hatcher & Afnan exchanges in "Relgion",
for example). I don't know what the normal practice, if any, there is
in case of books - I suppose a published book review might work?
hopelessly in search of an answer,
sAmAn
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Scholarship
Date: 20 Dec 1995 21:37:52 GMT
> >Why this pattern of defining academic Baha'i scholarship as Middle East
> >studies? Is that a restriction on the use of the term which has been
> >placed by the World Centre?
>
> How about an answer folks?
Well, to me, scholarship is the intensive study of an area aimed at
developing some level of expertise in that area.
So for me, 'Lights of Guidance' as a work that collates various available
statements of a variety of subjects is a scholarly work. Helen Hornsby is
not the only woman to do this kind of work, BTW. Bonnie Taylor prepared the
compilation on race unity. There is Marian Lippitt's project. And a number
of others. I think that it is interesting that for many years the Research
Committee of the U.S. NSA was 3 women - Marian Lippitt, Kay Zinky, and I
don't remeber the 3rd.
Likewise Michael Eissinger's attempt to put the works of Shoghi Effendi in
chronological order is a scholarly task. The attempts to develope a
comprehensive index to the Writings is a scholarly task and one which
American's don't seem to do a very good job of. The development of study
guides on a subject is a scholarly task. The development of children's
educational material is a scholarly project. The systematic and critical
study of any area in terms of the Writings is a scholarly task. The accurate
recording and archiving of contemporary Baha'i history is a scholarly task.
Most attempts to prioritized these are probably ego expressions. It seems to
me that the most important scholarly work is the one that the individual
needs at a specific time and place.
Don C
- sent via an evaluation copy of BulkRate (unregistered).
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 23:31:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: "Mark A. Foster"
Cc: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: "Scholarship"
I agree entirely with Mark Foster that what John Walbridge called
Baha'i-Wissenschaft or the academic study of the Baha'i religion in all
its aspects would include the work of an American sociologist of religion
studying American Baha'is without much reference to the Middle East. It
would also include the excellent work of Rob Stockman and Richard
Hollinger on American Baha'i history (though Rob had several years of
Persian at Harvard and Richard has studied Turkish and maybe other Middle
East languages; these have not been central to their scholarship). Peter
is right that it would also include the work of someone like Margit
Warburg, a Danish anthropologist of South Asia who is working on a Baha'i
village in India, also without much reference to the Middle East.
I am among those who reject the word "Orientalist" and do not consider
myself one. I am a historian, and my techniques (apart from language
study) are the same archival, documentary, and social-theory techniques
any of my colleagues use in writing about American history. I do accept
the sobriquet of "Middle East Studies" and see a place for the academic
study of the faith under that rubric.
The Germans call the academic study of religion Religionswissenschaft or the
"science" of religion, to distinguish it from theology, e.g.
Baha'i-Wissenschaft in this sense accepts some key academic hermeneutical
principles identified by Dilthey, including contextualization, change
over time, and so forth.
Baha'i-Wissenschaft in this sense must be distinguished from technical,
applied fields such as Baha'i agriculture or Baha'i radio management, which
are in themselves of the utmost importance, but contain a practical
element involving doing more than writing books.
Baha'i-Wissenschaft must also be distinguished from non-academic study of
the Faith, which *is not* less valuable, and of course constitutes the
vast majority of the study of the Faith that actually occurs.
Is there any real reason, however, that these three approaches to Baha'i
studies cannot co-exist, flourish, and enrich each other? Why not
authorize three language-games, or a hundred, if that many diverse
communities of interpretation give rise to that many intellectual forms
of life (Wittgenstein)? All three, after all, involve individual
interpretation, nothing more. And we live in a world with no living
Authorized Interpreter (Mubayyin), so we shall have to accept a diversity
of views.
I personally think that Baha'i `irfan or mystical insight is tremendously
more important than academic scholarship, and only wish I had as much of
it as some non-academic Baha'is I have met.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 23:12:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: notes to Baha'u'llah's Ode
More of Baha'u'llah's notes to his "Ode of the Dove":
17. I said, "To meet, I'd offer Thee My all.
Have mercy, do not publish My disgrace.
18. Since I love Thee too well, then make us one--
That we might for eternity embrace."
17. My all: That is, "All that which hath descended upon Me of the
stations of eloquent exposition and hidden meanings, and that which it
hath been given to Me to know of the modes of the divine Names and
Attributes, and that which God hath bestowed upon Me in the worlds
of the unseen and the seen--all this I offer up that I might meet Thee
once, and gaze upon Thee a single time."
I beseech Thy forgiveness, O My God, for that which I have
presumed to assert in Thy presence. But, by Thy Might, if I were not
so, I would wish to be so in Thy precincts, for without this nothing can
ever benefit Me, and naught else can grant repose to My heart, even
wert Thou to bestow upon Me all who are in heaven and on earth. I
ask Thee, O My God, by Him Who witnessed in Thy path what none
else hath witnessed, to send down upon Thy Servant the most great
signs of Thy love and the evidences of Thy glorious loving-kindness,
that My soul may be content in that for which it hopeth. Verily, Thou
art powerful over all things.
23. My incandescence kindled every fuel,
the Seen world was illumined by My sigh.
24. God's sea was dried up by My thirst, which the
wide stream of glory cannot satisfy.
23. Fuel: Even so, He saith, "the fire, whose fuel is men and stones."
(Q. 2:24). Flames and intense anxiety are also intended.
The note to verse 17 is very interesting in that it seems to me to be an
early claim to supernatural knowledge, even though it is expressed very
humbly. Baha'u'llah knows "hidden meanings" and the modes (shu'unat) of
the divine names and attributes. The claims are so grandiose, in fact,
that Baha'u'llah then feels compelled to apologize to God for expressing
them.
This is important, because some academics have questioned the earliness
of Baha'u'llah's own messianic convictions about himself.
His note on verse 23 links the lover's intense suffering because of
distance from the beloved to hell-fire. And, of course, this is the
Baha'i definition of hell--existential distance from the divine beloved.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 23:19:23 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alex Tavangar
Subject: Re: Intellectual elitism
At 09:28 AM 12/20/95 EWT, John wrote:
>I have done translations of Arabic poetry and Islamic philosophy but not
>of Baha'i texts--simply because I know that it would be too much trouble
>or very likely impossible to get a Baha'i translation approved and published.
A quick question John:
Can an academician (such as yourself) publish his/her work on Baha'i
subjects outside the Baha'i circles similar to works on other religions that
are published by a university press? In your experience, do non-baha'i
publishers see sufficient interest in Baha'i subjects to finance their
publication? If this is an available avenue for making one's work
accessible to a wider audience, it seems to me that some of the frustrations
of Baha'i social scientists about the rigors of meeting "official" Baha'i
criteria would be alleviated.
I should also say that I do see a role for Baha'i institutions taking part
in "officially authenticating " what will be published as official Baha'i
literature. I am not however clear as to the boundaries of such a review
process. My thought is that such boundaries are ever changing and very much
subjective .
Regards,
ABT [Alex B. Tavangar]
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 23:08:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Raising the moral standard
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear margareet,
To raise the moral standards we have to improve our spiritual qualities,
IMHO. That means to me as Bahaullah said "if he comes to the valley of
pure gold he should walk straight through, neither stop nor pause and
if he sees the most comliest woman least trace of desire should not possess
his heart (paraphrasing)." Of course I fall short of such standards and
try to attain it. However how sharing the rooms in the same house affects
this moral standard is frankly incomprehensible to me. Since in all
dispensations moral standards are set by Manifestations observance of
the moral standards is guided by obedience to the laws: which in this
case is the law of chastity which time and again as I have stressed
IMHO is not violated by sharing room in the same house. If it is a
national policy I would certainly obey it out of my love for Bahaullah,
but that does not make it right. And if you feel that following it is
conductive to uplifting moral standards you SHOULD by all means strive
to follow it. But I thought not imposing personal moral standards on
others is what Bahai Faith is all about.
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 22:09:09 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 95/12/20
> 1. 15:34 REUTERS MIDDLE EAST HIGHLIGHTS 1900 GMT
> 2. 15:29 PALESTINE POLICE SAY IRAN PLOTTED TO KILL ARAFAT
> 3. 13:47 WORLD CHURCHES TO HOLD CONFERENCE IN IRAN
> 4. 12:11 IRAN SAYS U.S, ALLIES PLANES VIOLATE ITS AIRSPACE
> 5. 10:43 IRANIAN RADIO STARTS BROADCASTS IN CHINESE
> 6. 06:40 REUTERS MIDDLE EAST HIGHLIGHTS
> 7. 01:52 CLINTON SAYS READY TO TALK TO IRAN - NEWSPAPER
> 8. 01:23 PRESS DIGEST - KUWAIT - DEC 20
>Transmission date: 95/12/19
> 9. 17:14 PAKISTAN ARRESTS KENYAN WITH HEROIN IN STOMACH
>
>=START= XMT: 15:34 Wed Dec 20 EXP: 15:00 Sat Dec 23
>
>
> Reuters Middle East Highlights 1900 GMT
> UNITED NATIONS - The International Atomic Energy Agency may have to destroy
>additional materials used in Iraq's clandestine nuclear programme as a result
>of documents handed over recently by Baghdad, the IAEA said.
> - - - -
> TEHRAN - Iran has complained to the United Nations that U.S. and allied
>planes patrolling over northern Iraq have violated its airspace, the Iranian
>news agency IRNA said.
> GENEVA - The World Council of Churches said it would be holding its
>first-ever conference with Iranian Moslem scholars in Tehran in October next
>year to discuss religion and the contemporary world.
> - - - -
> JERUSALEM - Israel barred entry to seven Americans Jews including a New
>York rabbi who were considered a security risk by officials still reeling from
>the assassination last month of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin.
> BETHLEHEM, West Bank - The Palestinian mayor of Bethlehem pleaded for
>international investment in his town, saying that without it the Christian
>population in the birthplace of Jesus faced extinction. In JERUSALEM, the head
>of the Roman Catholic church in the Holy Land said Christmas joy was returning
>to Jesus's birthplace as Israel hands over Bethlehem to Palestinian rule.
> - - - -
> PARIS - A bomb planted in a cafe exploded in the centre of the west
>Algerian town of Mostaganem, wounding 23 people, three seriously, the Algerian
>official news agency APS said.
> PARIS - Gunmen kidnapped an Algerian television official near his home in
>southern Algiers, a source close to security forces, and television sources
>said.
> PARIS - Fifty journalists were killed this year on assignments or because
>of their opinions, almost half of them in Algeria, the international press
>watchdog Reporters without Borders (RsF) said.
> - - - -
> ISTANBUL - Gunmen wounded two people in an attack on an office of the
>Islamist Welfare Party which is contesting Turkey's general elections on
>Sunday, Anatolian news agency said.
> - - - -
> ABU DHABI - Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat consolidated political ties
>with Arab Gulf rulers by his first official visit to the United Arab Emirates
>since the Gulf War.
> - - - -
> DAMASCUS - Syrian President Hafez al-Assad issued an amnesty law under
>which more than 5,300 prisoners would be freed, officials and judicial sources
>said.
> - - - -
> SANAA - Yemen told Eritrea to free 200 captured Yemeni soldiers it has
>admitted to holding and leave an island it seized before talks could start on
>ending the conflict between the two impoverished countries.
> - - - -
> CAIRO - A Palestinian Authority (PA) official said talks on Wednesday to
>try and persuade the militant Hamas movement to end its armed struggle against
>Israel were ``the most difficult'' in three days of negotiations.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 15:29 Wed Dec 20 EXP: 15:00 Sat Dec 23
>
>
> Palestine police say Iran plotted to kill Arafat
> ROME, Dec 20 (Reuter) - An Italian television station on Wednesday quoted
>the secret police chief in the Gaza Strip self-rule enclave as saying Iran was
>plotting to kill Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.
> ``At this moment there is the possibility of an attack on Arafat,'' Amin
>al-Hindi told the news programme of Videomusic.
> ``The risks aren't of internal conspiracy. The planning and preparation of
>this attack are being done in a country which has good experience of political
>assassinations. Frankly, I'm talking about Iran,'' he was quoted as saying.
> Videomusic made available an Italian transcript of the interview, which it
>said had been conducted in Gaza and would be broadcast on Wednesday night.
> ``We are afraid that it (Iran) will entrust the job to extremist groups
>ready to sabotage the peace, to kill Arafat, such as Abu Nidal,'' Hindi said.
> Palestinian police last month arrested five people linked to the militant
>Palestinian group Abu Nidal whom they said had planned to kill the Palestine
>Liberation Organisation leader. Abu Nidal opposes Arafat's peace moves with
>Israel.
> Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was shot dead at a peace rally in
>November by a Jewish extremist who opposed the handover of land for Palestine
>self-rule.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 13:47 Wed Dec 20 EXP: 13:00 Sat Dec 23
>
>
> World churches to hold conference in Iran
> GENEVA, Dec 20 (Reuter) - The World Council of Churches (WCC) said on
>Wednesday it would be holding its first-ever conference with Iranian Moslem
>scholars in Tehran in October next year to discuss religion and the
>contemporary world.
> The decision, according to a WCC statement, followed a colloquium last week
>at its Geneva headquarters attended by representatives of the Secretariat for
>Interfaith Dialogue of Iran's Centre for International Studies.
> The WCC, which links some 330 mainly Protestant and Orthodox churches in
>more than 100 countries, said representatives of Iranian churches -- which
>human rights organisations assert are persecuted in Iran -- would attend the
>conference.
> And it quoted senior Iranian official Mohammed Ali Shoaei as saying there
>would be ``no limits'' on the discussion.
> Over the past year, following feelers from Iran, an Iranian delegation has
>visited WCC headquarters and a group from the WCC went to Iran to meet Moslem
>scholars as well as government officials and leaders of WCC-affilated churches
>there.
> The WCC said the colloquium -- at which topics included the challenge of
>secularisation to believers of all faiths, law and human dignity, justice and
>peace -- was the outcome of that exchange.
> It also quoted Shoaei, Director of the Tehran Centre, as saying after the
>gathering that the October conference had to find practical solutions to ways
>in which Christians and Moslems could work together and co-exist.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 12:11 Wed Dec 20 EXP: 12:00 Sat Dec 23
>
>
> Iran says U.S, allies planes violate its airspace
> TEHRAN, Dec 20 (Reuter) - Iran has complained to the United Nations that
>U.S. and allied planes patrolling over northern Iraq have violated its
>airspace, the Iranian news agency IRNA said on Wednesday.
> It said Iran's U.N. ambassador Kamal Kharrazi wrote to U.N.
>Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali listing ``four cases of air violation
>launched by the allied forces on (the) Iran-Iraq southern borderline from July
>12 (to) September 30, 1995.''
> Kharrazi called the violations ``disturbing'' and called on Boutros-Ghali
>to take measures to stop them, the agency said.
> In November, Iran complained for the first time to the U.N. about similar
>violations of its airspace along the Iran-Iraq border and over Gulf waters, it
>added.
> Planes from the United States, Britain and France have patrolled the skies
>of northern Iraq from a base in Turkey since shortly after the 1991 Gulf War,
>keeping Baghdad's troops out of areas now under Kurdish factions.
> In the late 1980s, the United States shot down an Iranian civilian airliner
>in the region mistaking it for a military target.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 10:43 Wed Dec 20 EXP: 10:00 Sat Dec 23
>
>
> Iranian radio starts broadcasts in Chinese
> TEHRAN, Dec 20 (Reuter) - Iranian state radio is starting daily broadcasts
>in Chinese beamed to China on Wednesday, an official said.
> ``The shortwave programme in Chinese is starting today (Wednesday) to mark
>the anniversary of Mab'as (the day Mohammad became the prophet of Islam),'' an
>official at the Iranian radio, who declined to be named, told Reuters.
> Tehran radio said on Tuesday the daily half-hour broadcast was part of
>Iran's efforts at combatting ``Western cultural invasion'' around the world.
> The Iranian radio's external services have been expanding, adding daily
>programmes in Hausa, Italian, Malay and Swahili since late 1994.
> Other external service languages include Arabic, Armenian, Assyrian, Azeri,
>Baluchi, Bengali, Bosnian (Serbo-Croatian), Dari, English, French, German,
>Kurdish, Pushtu, Russian, Spanish, Tajik, Turkish, Turkmen, Urdu and Uzbek.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 06:40 Wed Dec 20 EXP: 06:00 Sat Dec 23
>
>
> Reuters Middle East Highlights
> MANAMA - The United States is ready to talk to Iran, President Bill Clinton
>was quoted as saying in remarks published on Wednesday, but there can be no
>resumption of ties until Tehran changes its ``unacceptable activities.'' He
>also told the Saudi-owned Ashraq al-Awsat newspaper that the United States
>would continue to impose sanctions against Iraq for invading Kuwait in 1990
>until it implemented all U.N. resolutions.
> - - - -
> CAIRO - The Palestinian Authority (PA) and the rival Moslem militant Hamas
>movement resumed talks on the controversial issue of suspending militant
>attacks on Israeli targets. Talks went late into the night on Tuesday without
>final agreement on getting Hamas to take part in Palestinian elections on
>January 20. PA negotiator Jamal Zakkout said there were no disputes and a Hamas
>official said the group had asked for more time to discuss the election issue.
> - - - -
> PARIS - A bomb in the Algerian town of Mostaganem wounded at least 23
>people, three of them seriously, and caused extensive damage, the Algerian
>official news agency APS said.
> - - - -
> TEL AVIV - Israel's Ports and Railways Authority and Palestinian officials
>have begun discussing rebuilding part of an abandoned Israel-Egypt rail line, a
>spokesman said.
> - - - -
> ABU DHABI - Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat arrived in Abu Dhabi on his
>first official visit to the United Arab Emirates since the 1990-91 Gulf crisis
>strained UAE-PLO ties. UAE President Sheikh Zaid bin Sultan al-Nahayan greeted
>Arafat at the airport, the official news agency WAM said.
> - - - -
> KUWAIT - About 100 Kuwaiti politicians and academics have written to
>Bahrain's emir asking him to restore the island state's parliament and release
>political prisoners, a Kuwaiti opposition newspaper reported.
> - - - -
> JERUSALEM - The oldest immigrant in the history of Israel -- a 110-year-old
>woman from Chechnya in southern Russia -- has arrived in the Jewish state.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 01:52 Wed Dec 20 EXP: 01:00 Sat Dec 23
>
>
> Clinton says ready to talk to Iran - newspaper
> MANAMA, Dec 20 (Reuter) - The United States is ready to talk to Iran,
>President Bill Clinton was quoted as saying in remarks published on Wednesday,
>but there can be no resumption of ties until Tehran changes its ``unacceptable
>activities.''
> ``We are ready to enter into dialogue with representatives of the Iranian
>government at any time,'' Clinton was quoted as saying in an interview in
>Washington published in Asharq al-Awsat, a Saudi-owned newspaper produced in
>London.
> ``It must be clear to the Iranians that resumption of ties is impossible
>before Tehran stops its unacceptable activities,'' the Arabic-language daily
>quoted Clinton as saying.
> Washington in June banned trade between U.S. companies and Iran in
>retaliation for Iranian opposition to the Middle East peace process and an
>alleged Iranian threat to U.S. interests globally. Iran rejected the charges.
> Iran's officials say the embargo will not halt its economic development
>because no foreign trade partner can afford to ignore its market, the Gulf's
>biggest with more than 60 million people.
> Clinton said the sanctions were aimed at ``showing our opposition to Iran's
>policy and our determination that Iran takes responsibility of all its
>aggressive activities.''
> ``For the decisions to succeed we need support of Iran's trade partners in
>Europe, Asia and round the world. We are encouraging them to take the step to
>pressure the Iranian government to change its policies.''
> Clinton accused Iran of providing ``direct and indirect support for
>terrorist organisations, involvement in propaganda against friends of the
>United States and military threats against neighbouring countries.''
> He also accused Tehran of seeking to obtain technology of weapons of mass
>destruction including nuclear know-how.
> ``We do not have any problem with the Iranian people. But we are against
>the behaviour of the Iranian government,'' he said.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 01:23 Wed Dec 20 EXP: 01:00 Sat Dec 23
>
>
> PRESS DIGEST - Kuwait - Dec 20
> KUWAIT, Dec 20 (Reuter) - These are the leading stories in the Kuwaiti
>press on Wednesday. Reuters has not verified these stories and does not vouch
>for their accuracy:
> AL-QABAS
> - U.S. proposal about Syrian participation in Lebanon's security published
> - Iran exiles opposition leader
> - Three university students assault teachers
> AL-WATAN
> - Damascus: Circumstances suitable for peace with Israel
> - Arafat continues tour for normalisation with Gulf states
> ARAB TIMES
> - Kuwait debates restoration of ties with pro-Iraq states
> - Zairean charter crashes in Angola; 139 killed
> - Fedral Reserve cuts interest rates
> AL-TALEA (weekly)
> - Limiting role of parliament and cabinet, and abolition of (Sabah) family
>council, stirs disputes within ruling circles
> - Russia gives safe haven to Bosnia's shedder of blood
> AL-SEYASSAH
> - Hamas: Will continue Jihad (holy war) as long as occupation remains
> - Mediation to solve the Eritrean-Yemeni row
> AL-ANBA
> - Syrian foreign minister: We will not negotiate on behalf of Lebanon
> - Turkish Prime Minister survives dangerous accident
> - Oman appoints two ministers
> KUWAIT TIMES
> - UN sanctions against Baghdad likely to stay
> - Stocks rebound on Fed rate cut
> - Reds see big win in Russian elections
> - Worldwide terrorism likely to surge, says CIA chief
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 17:14 Tue Dec 19 EXP: 17:00 Fri Dec 22
>
>
> Pakistan arrests Kenyan with heroin in stomach
> QUETTA, Pakistan, Dec 19 (Reuter) - Pakistani authorities said on Tuesday
>they arrested a Kenyan national leaving for Iran with 90 capsules of heroin in
>his stomach.
> The Kenyan, identified only as Tajay, was arrested while buying a bus
>ticket on Monday for the small border town of Taftan to cross into Iran, said
>the anti-Narcotics Force director for Baluchistan province, Colobel Ehnasul
>Haq.
> He told a news conference at the provincial capital Quetta that Tajay
>bought one kg (2.20 lbs) of heroin in the northwestern town of Peshawar last
>week and put it into small capsules that he swallowed.
> A Nigerian in a hotel on tbe Pakistan-Iran border last Thursday after one
>of several dozen heroin capsules burst in his stomach.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>
>
>
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 23:26:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: re:engagement law
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I also would like to know what exactly constitutes an engagement, I am
afraid again it would be national policy.
In my case I am not so concerned since I do not mind advancing the marriage
if somebody pays my airfare to India and obtains my advisor's consent to
leave this place before finishing the work for my dissertation. Barring
that I do not see any possibility of the marriage occuring before next
December.
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 22:03:48 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Donna Katich Latest News .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
To: farshid@ix.netcom.com
To: BANANI@humnet.ucla.edu
Just to let you all know that after 3 hours of X-Rays and scans today ,
Donna is having brain operation tomorrow morning 8.00 California time .
That is good news because if the vein that burst was further into the
brain stem surgery would have been impossible . It is a delicate
operation and Prayers are needed . Donna may be left with a speech
impediment and lack of movement in her left side ,even if the
operation works .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
[end of 12/20/95 session
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