Dec. 17-18, 1995
Talisman posts received 12/16/95-12/17/95 -------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 07:16:19+030 To: "[G. Brent Poirier]"From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden) Subject: Re: Conscience Cc: talisman@indiana.edu >On Fri, 15 Dec 1995, Don Peden wrote: > >> Would this mean that Gandhi's approach of passive non-obedience was an >> anarchists approach? If it was, let's hear it for the anarchists (I always >> suspected they had a role to play!) > >Well, having an intimate knowledge of the subject, I recall that there >were some loose connections between the War Resisters I used to hang >around with, (I used to be Anarchy-Boy in an earlier incarnation) and >various anarchist groups. Sure, the moral posture is a good one, with >respect to treatment of one's fellow human beings. But this leaves out >the no less important ethic of supporting the government. Thanks for your reply. It was helpful to clarify my understanding of what you were saying. It seems, however, that the above query and response has awakened many old ideas and emotions from our fellow peaceniks. In the discussion of anarchy/government, I would propose that there is a difference between Gandhi and M.L.King and the anarchists in Spain (just as an example). The difference was that one used passive resistance, and the other used violence as a means of accomplishing their end. When it comes to passive resistance, (which is really what we are discussing with reference to an individual's inability to follow a directive which they feel is contrary to moral conscience), it is very hard to have a catagorical answer...all cases are different...and one walks on very tricky ground, such as the issue of Germany. We are also distinguishing between moral obligation of obedience to Baha'u'llah's directive to obey just governments, and the obligation to be obedient to the House of Justice. Is the House of Justice a just government, or is it something else? A key word which, perhaps, bears some exploration is "just". It seems that you have had some dialogue on this issue with the world centre, and I would be very interested in hearing what the Universal House of Justice responded. I don't know if this is old territory on Talisman or not, and if it is, perhaps a private posting would be appropriate to continue on. Thanks again for your response, Love, Bev. =END= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 23:31:09 -0500 (EST) From: Juan R Cole To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: publishing statistics Paul Johnson's analysis of published books per capita contains an important truth, however you look at it. The OCLC database represents a good indication of what is available to the public, at least, and the Baha'is are weird in this regard even compared to sectarian or esoteric movements that began in the 19th century. It is simply not true that the series *Studies in Babi and Baha'i History/Religions* has sold badly. The fact is that whereas few academic books can hope nowadays to sell more than about 500 copies (that is, monographs published by e.g. Princeton University Press or U of Cal. Press), there is a market of about 1,000 Baha'i households for pretty much any serious book about the Faith. Since it costs $20,000-$30,000 to publish academic books, and since they can be priced around $30, you can see that it is possible to publish such books and to break even or make a small profit. My translations of Mirza Abu'l-Fadl's books must have sold in the thousands by now, by the way (does Tony know?) So, the drawback is not financial, or not primarily so. I personally think it is ideological. The Baha'i community simply is not on the whole very welcoming of individual insights, demanding conformity and centralizing everything in the hands of elected bureaucrats, most of whom are not themselves intellectuals. The covenant is frequently brandished about as some sort of threat or control mechanism. The system provides serious disincentives to authors. First of all, why spend years writing a book that could be turned down in the final analysis by a Review committee? This has happened to a number of Baha'i authors over the years, though not so much in this country; the derailment of the Encyclopaedia is a good example. Nor is everything that goes on in this regard through official channels. Last year a Baha'i academic with a Ph.D. in the social sciences had an introductory book on the Faith submitted for review in a European country. The Review committee contacted an individual member of the House about it. That House member objected to a number of aspects of the book, though he is not himself an academic. It took some doing to convince the Reviewing committee that all this was improper and that the book should be allowed to appear as was. Most authors are simply not willing to put up with these sorts of hassles. We have lost at least two Baha'i magazines because of similar hassles. This situation, as Paul's statistics indicate, is abnormal and intellectually unhealthy. As for the Covenant, can we please listen for once to the Centre of the Covenant? At the Central Congregational Church in Brooklyn on 16 June 1912, `Abdu'l- Baha said: "Just as in the world of politics there is need for free thought, likewise in the world of religion there should be the right of unrestricted individual belief. Consider what a vast difference exists between modern democracy and the old forms of despotism. Under an autocratic government the opinions of men are not free, and development is stifled, whereas in a democracy, because thought and speech are not restricted, the greatest progress is witnessed. It is likewise true in the world of religion. When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization may give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are inevitable." At the Universalist Church Washington, D.C. on 6 Nov. 1912, he said: "Praise be to God! The standard of liberty is held aloft in this land. You enjoy political liberty; you enjoy liberty of thought and speech, religious liberty, racial and personal liberty." Surely we want the "inevitable" "development and growth" of the Baha'i Faith? And if we do, the Master has told us exactly how we can ensure it. We are nearly 40 years into the post-Guardian era, the Faith has emerged from obscurity, and it is time now to move away from spoon-fed baby food and toward something of more intellectual substance, toward a recognition of the individual right of individual interpretation and a recognition of the inevitable (and desirable) diversity of thought in a global Faith. Our profound loyalty to the Institutions, for whom some on Talisman have put their lives at risk in the past, is not a reason to deprive them of the sort of perspectives and consultation that free-wheeling discussion alone can provide. Let us not question one another's motives. After all, it would be as easy to speak of Baha'i "careerists" who attempt to parlay a rhetoric of super-loyalty into a high standing in the community as it would be to speak of selfish Western (is that a racial slur?) intellectuals motivated by ego rather than the best interests of the Faith. The goal for all Baha'is on Talisman is the same, to see an efflorescence of the community. Only if such an efflorescence were already visible would it be illegitimate to discuss the necessary changes to bring it about. In fact, of course, Baha'is are culturally impoverished and intellectually deprived, and I personally believe this gap has made it difficult for the community to grow in a literate society such as the U.S. (and even moreso in places such as France, where our numbers are pitiful). cheers Juan Cole, Dept. of History, University of Michigan =END= From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT" To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 23:42:32 EST Subject: Re: QUANTA'S HOME PAGE Dearly beloved Talismanistas, Some of you send me e-mail and taking my offer for posting your pictures as 'Quanta's Talismanian Friends'on the www.home page. I am very serious about this. I will put your picture, or group picture some of you took at those conferences, if you send me one ASAP. Put your name and the date in the back and mail it with permission to: Quanta Dawn-Light 809 Tower Street Raleigh, N.C. 27607-7364 My home phone (919) 833-2452 best time to reach me is late eves or early mornings. Or, leave a message. p.s. This weekend I will be adding some more stuff on the home page, including a chanting of a prayer and reading poetry, if you have access to multimedia audio equipment, you'll hear Quanta! Also if John & Linda Walbridge wishes me to I will write a few introductory lines about my beloved Talisland too. Love y'all. Thank you God, I needed some pleasant distractions from hoh humm! I am studying for taking an exam for a job position, so when I am done I'll be back in full swing my dearest, much missed Talismafriends. with much love and best wishes, *** *** * * * =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:05:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Timothy A. Nolan" To: 72110.2126@compuserve.com, talisman@indiana.edu Subject: RE: Conscience David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com> writes: > First, the comment, on Tim Nolan's post of yesterday -- Tim, you > say that "there have to be limits on civil disobedience. Not all > disobeyers have the noble principles of a Gandhi or M.L. King. > Some who practice civil disobedience are simply terrorists or > murderers." > dl> I would submit that civil disobedience has a long and powerful dl> history *because* it has disavowed terrorism and murder. I certainly agree that non-violent civil disobedience has a history to be proud of. Unfortunately, not all disobedience is that noble. Surely it is obvious that there are terrorists and murderers who are not merely common criminals. Some horrible actions have been carried out in the name of resisting a government that someone sees as unjust. In my view, this is really about *principles*. If we accept the *principle* that it is morally right sometimes to disobey the law in order to follow what our consciences tell us is a higher good,....once that *principle* is established, then it becomes necessary to define clearly what is "moral" and what is a "higher good". The man who recently murdered the prime minister of Israel apparently thought he was serving a "higher good". So, the fundamental question, which will always pester us until it is answered, is, "Who gets to define what is a 'higher good'" What one person may think is a just cause for disobeying a law, you may see as narrow mindedness, paranoia, or a simple lust for vengeful bloodletting. Who gets to define the circumstances under which civil disobedience is justified or not justified, and who gets to decide what acts of disobedience are permissible? I think it is important to face up to the reality that not everyone is noble minded. Some people are capable of morally horrific acts, which they call "civil disobedience" or "freedom fighting". There are many people who disobey laws, and most of them are not Gandhi or Thoreau. The existence of the Universal House of Justice makes this moral dilemma go away. Since the decisions of the House of Justice are "the truth and the purpose of God Himself", since that body is "the source of all good and freed from all error" therefore it follows that there can never be a circumstance when moral principle will be better served by disobeying the House to follow one's individual conscience. Following one's conscience may make a person feel better, but disobeying the truth and the purpose of God Himself obviously can never be morally right. The voice an individual hears as his or her conscience is not guaranteed unerring divine guidance; the House of Justice is guaranteed exactly this. dl> To lump nonviolent civil disobedience and criminal or genocidal dl> acts together makes a serious category error. Oh, I agree with you completely. The point is there ARE people who make exactly this error. There are people who kill and terrorize and call it civil disobedience. What should be done about them? Should people be allowed civil disobedience only if they have the "right" kind of conscience? If yes, who gets to define what the "right" kind of conscience is? dl> The presence of the Universal House of Justice, and their rulings dl> on various Baha'i laws, helps immeasurably in but does not replace dl> the operation of the individual conscience. I agree. In a letter about chastity, published back in 1969, the Universal House of Justice wrote to the effect that one cannot be a good Baha'i by merely following a list of rules. The House of Justice went on to say that it is not possible AND NOT DESIREABLE for the Universal House of Justice to make rules to tell us precisely what to do in any possible situation. Instead, the House wrote, a Baha'i should perform every conscious act in the spirit of service to God. If a person follows this principle, the House said, he or she will not fail to realize the true purpose of his or her life. Tim Nolan =END= From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck) Subject: Re: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 1 To: rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com (Ahang Rabbani) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 0:58:59 EST Cc: talisman@indiana.edu Dear Ahang: 16 December 1995 Yours is the clearest picture I've seen on Zuhur al-Haqq. I look forward to further posts on this monumental work. I am particularly interested in any information on Baha'u'llah that is not contained in Nabil (if this is at all possible to determine). But I have a more general question. I would like to draw an analogy between the Tehran *House of Justice* (is this accurate? or anachronistic?), the commissioning of Zuhur al-Haqq and the Baha'i Encyclopedia Project and its commissioning by the US-NSA/UHJ. One major difference is that, from what I gather, the Baha'i Encyclopedia Project is not dead. Comatose, perhaps, but not dead. Zuhur al-Haqq, however, suffered much more severe vicissitudes. This historically-encyclopedic project has been dead for decades. The only hope for it is a physical resurrection. Despite the fact that *Jinab-i Fadil* was one of the only two *fully-confirmed Baha'is* whom the beloved Master sent to America (the other being Mirza Abu'l-Fadl) and despite Fadil's secret rank as a Hand of the Cause of God, it appears to me that his scholarship was vigorously opposed by certain powerful influences in Baha'i administration. Perhaps you might enlarge on this, Ahang. It is a delicate subject and it is not my intention to scandalize the Administration in Tehran. But the tensions generated between scholarship and Administration ought to stand as an object lesson in history. No one would ever doubt or impugn Fadil's fidelity to the Covenant. So why was publication of Zuhur al-Haqq opposed? What were the issues involved? Once again, Ahang, I am interested in the issues and not in criticizing the Institutions of the time. I just want your thoughts as to whether or not Baha'i history is repeating itself in the Baha'i Encyclopedia Project. I would hope that my analogy does not hold, and that things have really come quite a long way since then. If the Baha'i Encyclopedia does get published, which I have faith it will, will Zuhur al-Haqq as well? -- Christopher Buck ********************************************************************** * * * * * * * * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est. * * * Carleton University * * * * * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * * * * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * * * * * * * * ********************************************************************** =END= From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins) To: think@ucla.edu Cc: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Interesting info Date: 16 Dec 1995 00:13:07 GMT This is a reference to the 'our' Mason Remey. Actually there were 3 complete sets of his materials in the state. One went to a public library in S E Iowa, don't remember where just now. Iowa received some of the most complete sets that he sent out because of the connection of the Mason family (his mother's maiden name) to Iowa. As I remember, he was born in Iowa, but left at a very early age. His mother's father was the first Federal Judge in the state, and is considered somewhat important in the judicial history of the era because of some of his decisions. Other compete or nearly complete sets were given to Wisconsin (?), because of his father's family roots, and the District of Columbia (?) because of the family's involvement in the government and navy. The issue of the box was first popularized during the move from the old State Library to the new Historical Building because it was rather difficult to move. Then when it was opened, several of the local TV stations were on hand. There was mention of the Faith in connection with it, but he usually came off sounding like an egotistical nut. Don C - sent via an evaluation copy of BulkRate (unregistered). =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 21:09:29 +1300 (NZDT) To: SFotos@eworld.com, talisman@indiana.edu From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) Subject: Re: Darwinism and the Writings Sandy wrote, >Some Baha'i friends in the natural sciences (and me too, since I have a >background in maine botany )have felt that this statement refers to >potentiality rather than to morphology. > >The particular line which would eventually evolve into humans was always >distinct and identifiable in terms of its future direction, although not in >terms of its physical appearance vis a vis other organisms. > >Again, may I argue for the longitudinal perspective? Why not? Religions and the best philosophical systems are inevitably teleological. But just as the deathless human soul comes into existence at conception, even when humans were rather amoebic in appearance they were nonethless essentially separated from all other creatures through their investment with what 'Abdu'l-Baha calls an ideal endowment. Which -- as you indicate -- expresses itself only progressively, through unfoldment... Which is to say, I suppose, that our amoebic thru ape-like forbears will be present in the next world fully invested with *human* beauty.... As will aborted foetuses... Robert (a small black dog with springy step) Johnston =END= Date: 16 Dec 95 00:38:15 U From: "Dan Orey" Subject: my fuzzy post To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz, talisman@indiana.edu Reply to: my fuzzy post Good question - First the Guardian - I think he said something about not being an authority on things that are scientific...... science seems to be saying something different these days. I do not think it takes anything away from what he says, its in the application. Northern California sets the standards, for fine whine, freeways, pollution, both high and low academic standards in our public schools, great weather, some of the finest scenery in the world, Mt. Shasta, hippies, right wing fundamenatlists, left wing fundamentalists, Berkeley, technology, art, culture, smog, fog, a sense that there is a contribution that can be made by everyone in a society no matter who thery are - the sense gets written into things like constitutions, human rights, Easelen, affirmative action statements here, Mrs. Doubtfire, computers, tall trees, Pete's Coffee, great t-shirts, good pizza, the biggest long distance race in the world (Bay to Breakers 150 000 and no crime), the most beautiful city in the world (San Francisco is well, ok, one of them), were only $29.00 away from Disneyland, multiethnic junkfood (I had a salmon burrito today)...... oh yeah gay rights. Admittedly not all of these standards are those that should be adopted by everyone, its just a cool place that a lot of people move to from all over the world. I think the same can be said about about a hundred thousand other palces on the planet. - Daniel (not meaning to be a cultural snob) =END= From: "Mark A. Foster" Subject: epiphanies & reverence To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 07:50:06 -0600 (CST) To: talisman@indiana.edu Hi, Eric - You're welcome, Eric. Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. My Internet provider was down for a little over a day, and I am trying to gradually get caught up on my mail which had build up to 187 messages! P>Mark, you know it is probably ok for you to say you are pissed when P>people make snide comments about why you are still not married, and it P>is probably also ok to say you are frustrated with something about the P>discussion here. Let it out, it's better than letting it fester. You P>are a great guy, I really appreciate what you have contributed. Thank you, brother Eric ;-). Actually, these sorts of statements do not bother me. In the case you are referring to, I think that the poster was well-intentioned and was speaking out of a sincere concern. At *other times*, however (not in the situation you are referring to here in cyberspace), I have had people try to convince me that I *should* get married. Some have even produced Baha'i texts, out of context IMO, to support their contention. I tend to take such statements, however inappropriate, as expressions of where the "other guy" is coming from. I try not to judge these people. What they say honestly does not bother me. OTOH, direct, personal name-calling can, as you know, stir me up. However, recognizing that weakness in myself, I have of late been doing some inner work so that, hopefully, I can, if appropriate, mention my displeasure without *reacting* to that either. P>I don't know if I should be AWED by Mark, Tim and Robert's reverence/faith P>in the infallability/sinlessness (or whatever term you like) of the House P>of Justice, or HORRIFIED by the possibility that because of that faith, P>they would seem to be willing to give up their responsibility to protect P>a friend's life under the hypothetical circumstances that we have been P>discussing. Speaking only for myself, my feeling is that the Bab and Baha'u'llah also wish the highest for God's servants, and I trust that, as They guide the Supreme Body in its deliberations, its members will come to a decision which will be for the best of all concerned - even though neither myself nor my friend may understand the wisdom involved. Warm greetings to you, Mark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * *President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society * *Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality * *Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society * *Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College * * 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. * *Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) * *Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) * *Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); * * 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);* * Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); * * RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ___ * UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-) =END= From: "Mark A. Foster" Subject: miscellaneous To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 07:50:07 -0600 (CST) To: talisman@indiana.edu Hannah, Dan, Terry, and other Talismanians - Hannah, I appreciated your message. Personally, I do not feel that people are playing games, but I think that we are all aware of one or more ideological gulfs on Talisman, and some folks are trying to understand those who have a different view of things than they do. I am also saddened by the AOL problem. Certainly, the National Center should be informed. If Rob Stockman has been reading these messages, perhaps he could, with Dan's consent, relay this information to the secretary's office (unless, of course, they are already aware of it). Since I am one of two supervisory AOL Baha'i staff, I will take it upon myself to discreetly inquire further into this matter. However, I am the chief Baha'i chat host (with my two assistants). It is the other administrator who is responsible for the message board. Fortunately, we have not seen any comparable rudeness on the Front Porch (the religion and ethics chat area). Dan, if you need the screen name of the Baha'i message board host, I can email it to you privately. Terry, I enjoyed reading about your teaching efforts among the Jews. As someone who comes from a Jewish background, I have always wished that there were some way to formally promote such teaching efforts without endangering the special relationship that Baha'is have with the nation of Israel. Fortunately, there is a great deal of universalism in some sectors of the Jewish community. For example, ALEPH, the major organization devoted to Jewish renewal (which I am a member of - since one need not have Judaism as one's formal religion in order to join), has been working on returning spiritual vitality to the Jewish community. Its founder is Reb Zalman Schachter-Shalomi, a former Lubavicher rabbi, who now, by his own admission (in the book _Paradigm Shift_), is trying to do the same thing for Judaism as Matthew Fox has for Roman Catholicism (now, of course, Anglo-Catholicism). Like Fox, Reb Zalman (as he is known) refers to eco-spirituality and calls the earth by its Greek name, gaia (with all its wonderfully neo-pagan connotations). I wonder if Jewish renewal and ALEPH could be a "thought bridge" to reach out to these people - to find a common focus? As an aside, I personally feel that the late Marian Lippitt and Foundation for the Science of Reality may have a *similar*, though not identical, function within the Baha'i community as Fox's Institute for Creation Spirituality is having within Christianity and Reb Zalman's ALEPH is having within Judaism. Bright blessings, Mark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * *President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society * *Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality * *Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society * *Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College * * 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. * *Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) * *Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) * *Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); * * 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);* * Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); * * RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ___ * UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-) =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 05:41:01 -0500 From: "Ahang Rabbani" To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Zuhur'l-Haqq and Encyclopedia [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII] Once again through sheer brilliance, Chris Buck has managed to cut through all the smoke and put his finger right on the heart of the issues -- the short answer is: yes, there are a lot of similarities between what happened to Zuhuru'l-Haqq and the current status of the Baha'i Encyclopedia. Let me first state what I know as to what happened with Zuhuru'l-Haqq project. The lessons may then be obvious. On 11 Jalal 107 BE (1951) the NSA of Iran (Ali-Akbar Furutan was NSA secretary) published a 16 page open letter which at the end contains a short response by Fadil. This letter was the kiss of death for both Zuhurh'l-Haqq series and Fadil's scholarship and reputation. He spent the latter part of his life away from the Baha'i community -- though extremely active in teaching field. After the passing of his wife, he married a Muslim woman and his three sons were raised with deep resentments towards the Baha'i community in general -- though they are very knowledgeable about the Cause and have many good Baha'i friends. His youngest son lives here in Houston, another passed away (in Ohio?) with the eldest (he is about 80 years old now) being in the States now seeking medical treatment (heart problem). Of most concern is that Fadil had some extremely valuable and *unique* Texts and documents in his possessions, not to mention the fact that he had completed a number of very important books on the Faith which I believe he never shared with the administration and left with his sons -- which either have all been destroyed or awaits freezing of hell before they are handed over to the Faith. As an example of some of the books which he has completed but you never hear anyone mentioning it is a massive Encyclopedia on the Cause under the title "Asraru'l-Athar-i Umumi" (General Mysteries of the Writings). Years earlier he published a 5-volume Baha'i encyclopedia series titled "Asraru'l-Athar-i Khususi" (Specific Mysteries of the Writings) which no serious Baha'i student should be without. But his "Umumi" version was apparently the finest single piece of scholarship ever attempted in the Cause and its a great shame if destroyed -- or never published. But again, what is of greatest importance is the massive amount of Tablets and original documents which he had in his possession which never found their way to the Cause. Some time ago, when I was posting on Quddus (I believe my first post on this topic), I discussed that for example he had a Tablet of Baha'u'llah in his possession where He states that had the Bab not declared, then Quddus would have. (Dr. Muhammad Afnan in Andalib states there is not such Tablet, but I think he knows better.) Anyway, the question is what happened with this most productive Baha'i scholar of all time (in my view, several orders of magnitude above Mirza Abu'l-Fadl or anyone else in the Faith)? The answer to this question is with "the Dawnbreakers"! All roads eventually lead to "The Dawnbreakers" which the beloved Guardian has stated is the "standard for Baha'i history", but in reality has served as the standard for Baha'i fundamentalism. "The Dawnbreakers" in my view is the biggest barrier to Baha'i scholarship! In fact, one can trace back the emergence of Baha'i fundamentalism right to the publication of this book and then exaggerated statements about it being "THE STANDARD". And that's when Fadil's troubles began. Fadil's view of history was based on several decades of incomparable collection of Texts, documents, narratives, interviews with old believers and extensive travels throughout the region -- not to mentioned a very elevated sense of devotion to the Cause which both Abdu'l-Baha and the beloved Guardian have praised repeatedly. So, what happened? Fadil had completed his first 3 volumes when Ali-Akbar Furutan got all bent out of shape. Now Furutan was (and is) somewhat of intellectual lightweight (and I'm afraid history won't be very kind to him on his writings, unless the House send out (which they will!) an extremely glowing cable after his death to silence all his critics (which are many)). This is all in early 1930's. So, Furutan, knowing that he couldn't take on a great mind like Fadil, got together with a real intellectual superstar (well, fast becoming one in those days), namely, my other hero, Ishraq-Khavari. Together they made a case that certain points in Zuhuru'l-Haqq series do not conform to The Dawnbreaker -- the "standard"! So, they write to the Guardian. This makes Shoghi Effendi all upset with Zuhuru'l-Haqq as he didn't like anything that deviated by a dot from the Dawnbreakers. So on 15 September 1932, he writes (my inadequate translation): "Immediately organize a special committee to investigate, reorganize and bring into conformity Jinab-i Fadil's history with that of Nabil's history [the Dawnbreakers]. Of this task and grave responsibility, no delay is permitted, and utmost effort must be diligently exerted." Poor Fadil. After a letter like this from the Guardian, well, his goose was cooked. What happened next is the ugliest chapter in Baha'i scholarship which has ever occurred. If you think things are bad now with respect to scholarship, well, you ain't seen nothing. (I have no intention of discussing the details on Talisman, and if pressed, will move the conversation over to Tarjuman, but in truth really rather not disclose any details, mostly because there is no guarantee that what I know is really what happened. Remember, I'm just a young lad in my 30's, I wasn't around in those days.) What is a matter of public record and I can safely state is that a committee was organized and closely (word by word) examined Zuhuru'l-Haqq. Now the Guardian wanted this to be done overnight. Well it took nearly 20 years to complete this process (Fadil's "confessional" letter is dated 1951). So, those hoping for a quick resolution of Baha'i Encyclopedia impasse may wish to make note of this. At the end, as I said, NSA of Iran published a 16 page letter outlining all the "errors" in ZH-3 and included Fadil's own short letter giving a blanket agreement with their comments. This letter of NSA of Iran is the greatest stupidity ever committed by a Baha'i institution and shows only their depth of ignorance. I will share its content as our discussion of ZH-3 unfolds. This letter resulted in discouraging a model servant of the Faith from further association with Baha'i administration and silenced anyone who dared to do serious or independent scholarship. Forever though the memory of this illustrious scholar of the Cause is inscribed upon the hearts of those seeking knowledge. The incredible injustice that took place a half-century ago must be set right, and it is my intention to speak publicly, openly and supportive of the Hand of the Cause of God Fadil-i Mazandarani wherever I can. If justice means anything to you, I implore you to do likewise. With devotion to the Faith, ahang. =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 09:35:48 -0500 (EST) From: Jonah Winters To: Member1700@aol.com, talisman Subject: Review / Provisional Translations Dear Tony, I am asking you this question via Talisman in case others are curious, too. Recently, someone (I apologize for forgetting who) broke down into a few specific categories the reasons that review would reject a text, one of which was the use of provisional translations. Yet, in SBBR Vol. 5, Lambden's "Sinaitic Mysteries" is full of provisional translations. I quote footnote 62, p. 166: "Unless otherwise indicated all translations from Persian and Arabic sources are my own." How was this possible? And, I'm not sure about this, but didn't Lawson also translate some of his quotations of the Bab's works in the first essay himself? -Jonah PS- If anyone reading this note has not read the book, let me encourage you to do so. It is, along with Chris's volume, one of the very best academic books on the Faith yet produced. We owe great thanks to Kalimat for producing such fine work! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Jonah and Kari Winters 33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527 =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 10:02:02 EWT From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Review and translation To: talisman@indiana.edu One of the reasons that I have written virtually nothing for publication on the Faith (apart from a great many unpublished encyclopedia articles) is that it is virtually impossible to write anything substantive about Baha'i thought without doing translations. For example, my own academic speciality is Islamic philosophy, which sheds great light on Baha'i texts like *Some Answered Questions*, but even when such texts are translated, the translations are not suitable for the kind of technical use I would wish to make up them. Nima can explain why, for instance, I could not use the chapter in SAQ that translates "wahdat al-wujud" as "pantheism". It is not that there is anything wrong with the translations; it is just that a translation made for devotional use is probably not going to be usable for theological analysis. The rules have loosened in recent years, so that people now talk about "provisional translations" or "paraphrases," but the situation is still not very satisfactory. There is a larger problem here, in fact. A field like Baha'i studies is comparable to fields like the classics, Egyptology, or Islamic studies. Such fields develop in a logical way, the first step being to make sources available. That means that we now ought to be concentrating on publishing primary texts, translating, cataloging, etc. Apart from the systematic cataloging of primary texts being done in the Holy Land (which are generally not available to scholars) and the American Baha'i archives, the rules about review and translation have made such activity very difficult. We have no critical edition of any work of Baha'i scripture; the only full editions and translations of any Babi works have been done by Azalis and non-Baha'is respectively. None of the primary sources for the life of Baha'u'llah have been published. Such limitations discourage scholars, Baha'i and non-Baha'i, from seriously pursuing the field. After all, to do a critical edition (for non-specialists, a "critical edition" is an edition of a text that uses as many manuscripts as possible to produce a reliable version of the text) of, say, Qayyumu'l- Asma', the first major work of the Bab, would take a scholar two to four years. It would be a worthy project, but no one is going to undertake it unless he is reasonably sure that he can publish it without interference. The real cost of fiascos like the Salmani affair and the Baha'i Encyclopedia is that they discourage scholars from involving themselves in such projects, even if they actually are commissioned or pre-approved by Baha'i institutions. john walbridge =END= From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:58:11 +0100 (MET) Subject: homosexuality To: talisman@indiana.edu John (W), Just to say I appreciated your posting regarding the 'legalisation' of homosexual marriages. Perhaps some less formal type of modus vivendi might be more practically realizable at present. Such as a statement to the effect that there is no reason why the Baha'i community should concern itself with the sexual relations or abstinence, as the case may be, of people living together, whether or not they have formally undertaken a civil marriage (which is legally recognized for homosexuals in the Netherlands, as I understand it). But on the other hand, it might be considered inappropriate at present to apply other aspects of Baha'i law, such as the dowry and parental permission. Politics is the art of the possible Sen ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854 Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL 6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands *** When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things, and the individuality of each, thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ =END= From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:59:05 +0100 (MET) Subject: Quddus To: talisman@indiana.edu On 9 November Ahang posted a piece on Quddus's Commentary on the Sad of Samad, in which he said that this was variously stated as being 500,000 verses and 6 times as long as the Quran. The later figure should at any rate be a 3: the reference is on p 357: In the days of his confinement in the town of Sari, Quddus, whom Mirza Muhammad-Taqi had requested to write a commentary on the Surih of Ikhlas, better known as the Surih of Qul Huva'llahu'l-Ahad, composed, in his interpretation of the Sad of Samad alone, a treatise which was thrice as voluminous as the Qur'an itself. If this is an ongoing work, the 480,200 missing verses might have been composed later, but there is a reference on p 409 which tells us the manuscript fitted in a single saddle-bag. (There is another reference to the commentary on p 390, which also gives an inkling of the level to which a fireside can aspire!). I assume that the 500,000 is mythical rather than arithmetical in the case of Quddus: what about the Bab? Give his long confinement and the availability of secretaries, is 500,000 verses entirely unrealistic in his case? Sen ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854 Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL 6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands *** When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things, and the individuality of each, thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 10:04:14 EWT From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: List Rules To: talisman@indiana.edu The list rules and customs are posted periodically for the benefit of new members and for the exhortation of the old. I remind the honored members of the prohibition of ad hominem arguments and the fact that the culture of the list runs to the argumentitive. John Walbridge ****** TALISMAN is an unmoderated forum for discussion of issues related to the Babi and Baha'i Faiths: history, theology, social issues, etc. Content can include discussion of relevant issues, queries, announcements, advertisements of books of interest to the members, etc. The list owner is John Walbridge, Professor of Near Eastern Languages and of Philosophy, Indiana University, Bloomington. 1. The service is provided through the University Computer Center of Indiana University. Participants are reminded that this service is paid for by the taxpayers of the state of Indiana, that the fundamental purpose of this list is scholarly, and that discussion should thus be conducted on the basis of evidence and rational argument. The list is open to anyone approved by the list owner. 2. The list is actually an automatic forwarding device. The list owner does not moderate content, nor does he wish to do so. Participants are free to argue for whatever views they wish, provided they do so courteously and on the basis of evidence and sound reasoning. 3. Any mail addressed to the list--TALISMAN@INDIANA.EDU--will be automatically forwarded as e-mail to all members of the list. 4. Participants are reminded that they are on the list as guests of the list owner. Violations of decorum will be punished by being dropped from the list. This sanction is solely at the discretion of the list owner and is not subject to appeal. 5. The list owner being a Midwesterner of philosophic temperament, participants are requested to refrain from abusive language, discourtesy, ad hominem arguments, accusations of heresy, and other forms of fallacious argumentation. On the other hand, this is an argumentative list, and members should be willing to defend their expressed opinions against spirited attack without taking it personally. 6. Please remember that all postings go out to all members. Sophomoric, overly long, irrelevant, and badly thought out postings waste everybody's time and someone's money. 7. Please refrain from unnecessarily including the text of the message you are replying to or passages therefrom in your postings. These clutter up the system and are a needless expense for those who personally pay for connect time. 8. No archive of messages is available, nor is there a list of participants. 9. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message to MAJORDOMO@INDIANA.EDU. Subj.: none The body should contain only the command: subscribe talisman or: unsubscribe talisman 10. To contact the listowner privately, e-mail to jwalbrid@indiana.edu. 11. A custom has developed on this list--based, it seems, on Maori etiquette--that new participants should introduce themselves at some point with a brief biography. =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 10:21:27 EWT From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: intelligent readers To: talisman@indiana.edu Robert, the answer to your question as to whether we have any intelligent readers of history (incl. evolution) is: YES! Linda =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 11:23:11 -0500 To: talisman@indiana.edu From: antonpf@name.net (Anton Pickard-Ferguson) Subject: Introducing myself to the list Greetings, Being a new subscriber, I'd like to introduce myself to the other memebers of the list. I am 42 years old, married with a daughter and live in Toronto, Ontario. My vocation is a multimedia artist/producer as a partner in a small company. My primary role is creating computer graphics and animation for presentations, CD-ROM, print and video productions. My interest in this list stems from being a Baha'i in the past but not at present. My journey has brought me back to an investigation of the Faith and I look forward to participating with others as I struggle with my questions. best regards to all, --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anton Pickard-Ferguson In.Visible.Media, Toronto, Ontario, Net: antonpf@name.net | CIS: 71141.2323@compuserve.com Voice: (416) 252-1650 | Fax: (416) 253-4443 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 09:42:01 -0500 From: "Ahang Rabbani" To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Quddus [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII] Dear Sen, You wrote: > On 9 November Ahang posted a piece on Quddus's Commentary on the Sad > of Samad, in which he said that this was variously stated as being > 500,000 verses and 6 times as long as the Quran. The later figure > should at any rate be a 3: the reference is on p 357: > In the days of his confinement in the town of Sari, Quddus, whom > Mirza Muhammad-Taqi had requested to write a commentary on the Surih > of Ikhlas, better known as the Surih of Qul Huva'llahu'l-Ahad, > composed, in his interpretation of the Sad of Samad alone, a treatise > which was thrice as voluminous as the Qur'an itself. Actually the passage you quote continues to say: "That exhaustive and masterly exposition had profoundly impressed Mirza Muhammad-Taqi and had been responsible for the marked consideration which he showed towards Quddus, although in the end he joined the Sa'idu'l-'Ulama' in compassing the death of the heroic martyrs of Shaykh Tabarsi. Quddus continued, while besieged in that fort, to write his commentary on that Surih, and was able, despite the vehemence of the enemy's onslaught, to pen as many verses as he had previously written in Sari in his interpretation of that same letter." The way I read these, and I'm very much open to receiving corrections, is that Quddus wrote half of it, 3 times the size of Qur'an in Sari and then the second half, hence a total of 6 Qur'an, at Fort Tabarsi. Does that make sense? Did I misread Nabil? The passage in the Dawnbreakes continues yet to say: "The rapidity and copiousness of his composition, the inestimable treasures which his writings revealed, filled his companions with wonder and justified his leadership in their eyes. They read eagerly the pages of that commentary which Mulla Husayn brought to them each day and to which he paid his share of tribute." Believe me (and if you don't ask Juan Cole who knows Quddus infinitely better than I), these statement are so true. His composition is so fantastic that it overwhelms. > I assume that the 500,000 is mythical rather than arithmetical in the > case of Quddus: what about the Bab? Give his long confinement and the > availability of secretaries, is 500,000 verses entirely unrealistic > in his case? Again, for now, I'm sticking to my theory that certain references to Quddus and the Bab are mixed up because of the identical titles that they had and that's where Nabil got confused over 500,000 verses for Quddus. The figure for the total amount of Bab's Writings as 500,000 verses, as you well know, comes form the Persian Bayan. Now that was written mid point (3 years) into his Ministry. Of the remaining years, He wrote very little (actually only massive Tablets of Visitation for Quddus and Mulla Husayn) and a Persian work, and a few other odds and ends, from May 1849 (Quddus' martyrdom) to July 1850. So basically the last 14 months of His life He composed little. That leaves us with nearly 2 years between the time of His statement in the Persian Bayan to May 1849. He must have composed many, many items during this period, so in my view 500,000 is a gross underestimate. Besides look at the volume of His Writings contained in INBA series. Its huge. I don't know how many verses, but its huge. Now, does it add up to 7 or 8 hundred thousands verses (or at least 500,000 as testified in the Persian Bayan)? No way! Probably half of it. Maybe even less. Ergo, a large chunk (half?) is missing. But the rumor has it that there is hope .... ;-} Do others (John, Juan, Lambden...) have a thought on these? I for one am very interested to learn what you have to share. regards, ahang. =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 11:04:01 -0500 From: "Ahang Rabbani" To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 3 [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII] Beloved Friends, Since everyone has been so tolerant of my incoherent comments on Zuhuru'l-Haqq, I thought to share a bit more as to their contents, so with your permission, I like to concentrate for now on the first volume that I have in my possession, namely, ZH-3 and hope that others would correct any inadvertent misrepresentation. (By the way, my earlier posting titled "Zuhuru'l-Haqq and Encyclopedia" is now considered part 2 of these series of postings (as if you really cared ...) In the introduction to this 532 page book, Fadil states that his purpose in this third volume (out of 9-vol series) is to provide: 1. biographical information on believers during the Babi Dispensation, 2. efforts of the enemies of the Cause, 3. description of Holy places associated with the early days of the Faith 4. a general history of the Babi community in each region. As we will see, in may ways this book is closely connected to ZH-2 and indeed a reading of it without the earlier volumes (and ZH-6) is relatively unsatisfactory. This is because just about all the topics discussed, have their full story told in ZH-2, and then for many of the survivers of the Babi period, he picks up the rest of their story in ZH-6. More on this later. Fadil has organized the book according to the major regions of Iran and then within each, discusses key communities and prominent figures, both friends and foes, as well as a describing buildings where the Bab visited or otherwise is of importance to the history of the Cause. I think for our purposes, its best if I outline the contents of this book under the headings: 1. Writings of the Bab 2. References to the Revelation of the Bab 3. Documents 4. References to books and treatise 5. References to ZH-2 and ZH-6 (and other ZH's) 6. Regions 7. Holy Places I hope this is acceptable to all. So, here we go ... 1. Writings of the Bab Jinab-i Fadil quotes extensively from the Writings of the Bab which he himself had a particular affinity for -- as we all do. He included the following extracts (listed below by page number) from the Writings of the Bab, and I'll try to include *very brief* comments, unless folks want more detailed discussion of certain Tablets, in which case Juan or John will do the honor: Pd-j: Arabic, 1.5 pages long, in praise and glorification of God, states at the end that sufficient proof (play on words here, since one of the title of the Bab is the Proof) has been divulged in the Book. P13-16: Arabic, 3.5 pages long, the Bab discusses a number of events which befell Him during the first three years of His ministry, for example on the opening paragraph gives the exact date of entrance in Mah-Ku prison, events leading up to His imprisonment, showers praise on such earlier figures as Shaykh Baha'i, Shaykh Ahmad, Siyyid Kazim, Mir Damad and expresses His servitude unto the Threshold of Almighty, and pays homage to earlier Prophets and holy figures. P20-22: Arabic, 3 pages, in response to questions of one of the Letters of the Living, Mulla Baqir-i Tabrizi, as to why so much of the Bayan is devoted to Him Whom God will make manifest. This is among the last Tablets of the Bab and is extremely important as in there, He once again reiterates that He, His Revelation and all the Letters of the Living, are but a creation of Him [Baha'u'llah] and serve His Threshold. At one point (towards the end), the Bab states categorically that He (Baha'u'llah) will appear in the year 80 [1280H = 1863], and that His recognition is not possible except through His Writings. In many ways, this Tablet could be considered the Bab's final testament, though He had a formal Will. P53-54: Arabic, 1.5 pages, Revealed in Mah-Ku, in response to the questions of Mirza Ahmad's Abdal-i Maraghi'i, elucidating a particular verse of Qur'an. P68(extra): Arabic, 3 pages, three examples of the Bab's handwritings and 2 of His seals. One of the reproduced specimen is the Bab's response to a query which He penned on the margin of the incoming letter. P69: Persian, 0.5 pages, an extract from the Persian Bayan where He claims divinity and says that of all things mentioned in Qur'an the most important is the Day of Resurrection (allusion to the Bab's appearance). P69: Arabic, 0.3 pages, a brief extract from one His prayers P70-72: Arabic, 2.5 pages, Revealed in Mah-Ku, a Tablet addressed to Mulla Muhammad-Taqi Harudi, where He emphatically outlines His own stations and claims Qa'imiyyat. (Fadil points out that in ZH-2 another major Tablet where the Bab's claim for Qa'imiyyat is outlined was quoted. Though I don't know exactly what Tablet Fadil is mentioning, I am familiar with a powerful Tablet by the Bab, quoted by Abbas Alavi, where His station of Qa'imiyyat is clearly and emphatically established.) P82-85: Arabic, 3 pages, the Bab's Tablet addressed to Muhammad Shah. The Bab wrote a total of at least 5 Tablets to Muhammad Shah (for a discussion of them see my humble series of articles on the Writings of the Bab in Payam-i Baha'i of last year). In these Tablets, He gradually unleashed the wrath of God towards this indecisive monarch who failed to recognize Him. P85-89: Arabic, 4 pages, in this Tablet addressed to Haj Mirza Aqasi, the Bab in the strongest language rebukes the incompetent Prime Minister, assures his of his downfall and eternal damnation. (Mirza Aqasi received a total of 3 Tablet from the Bab, and I believe this must be the very last one addressed to him. On page 94, Fadil mentions that the other two Tablets addressed to this man are quoted in ZH-2.) P90: Persian, 0.2 pages, a brief extract from the Persian Bayan where He refers to the building He occupied in Isfahan and the significance and exalted character of all buildings associated with Him. P106: Arabic, 0.2 pages, a brief extract where He refers to one of the Letters of the Living, Mulla Ali-y Bastami, (the first to leave Shiraz for Iraq) and says that he recognized the truth by a single verse without requiring any other proofs. P106: Arabic, 0.4 pages, a brief extract from the Bab's Tablet of Visitation for Imam Ali where Mulla Ali Bastami is referred to as the "gem of the believers" and much praise is showered upon him. P107: Arabic, 0.1 pages, a sentence out of the 2nd Tablet addressed to Shaykh Muhammad Hasan (who is also mentioned in the Kitab-i Aqdas as the one who failed to recognized the Bab, and he is the author of 24 volumes "Javahiru'l-Kalam" (an encyclopedia of Islamic law) -- the most useless pile of nonsense ever assembled!), where Mulla Ali-y Bastami is referred to as to "the one who prostrated himself before Me". P122-24: Arabic, 2 pages, a general proclamatory Tablet of the Bab to "the people of Bayan" where all believers are urged to "hasten to the land of Kh (Khurasan)" to attain the presence of Mulla Husayn, engage in teaching the Faith there, and render [Mulla] Husayn victorious. (Husayn is mentioned a few times in this Tablet, and I firmly believe that it alludes also to Baha'u'llah.) This Tablet begs to be translated. Its powerful. Pulsates with call to action and majestic language. Well, I've bored you all enough for one posting, we'll pick it up again later. much love to all, ahang. =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:31:41 -0500 (EST) From: Juan R Cole To: talisman@indiana.edu Cc: tarjuman@umich.edu Subject: Baha'u'llah's notes to Ode of the Dove I am slowly continuing to digitalize my translation of Baha'u'llah's notes to his "Ode of the Dove," a mystical poem written in Sulaymaniyyah, a provisional translation of which I posted earlier. Here is the note to verse 8: 7. The mistral's fragrance wafted from Her hair, and Beauty's eyes were solaced by Her gaze. 8. Her shining face gave Guidance sage advice, and Moses' soul was cleansed by Her form's blaze. 8. When Moses cleansed and sanctified the feet of the divine Self, Who had been consigned to human form, from the sandals of contingent fancies and drew forth the hand of divine Power from the fold of grandeur in the cloak of splendor, He arrived in the holy, good and blessed valley of the heart. This is the base of the throne of everlasting effulgence and the seat of divine and glorious converse. And when He reached that land of Sinai, which lieth outstretched to the right of the illumined Spot, He smelled the perfumed odor of the Spirit from east of eternity, and perceived the undying lights from all directions, without direction. After the darkened glass of self had been removed, the wick of the divine Essence blazed forth in the lamp of his heart, ignited by the passionate scent of godly love and the flaming brand of the fire of divine unity. And after the stations of opposition had been eliminated, He arrived in the valley of eternal sobriety through the wine of the attainment to an incomparable Countenance and the pure nectar of the imperishable. Through the attractive power of His longing for the divine Meeting, He became aware of the city of everlasting life. "He entered the city at a time when its people were heedless" (Q. 28:15). And behold, He discerned the fire of the timeless godhead, and shone with the light of the Almighty God. He said to His family, "Do ye tarry here. Verily, I observe a fire" (Q. 20:10). When He discovered and perceived the visage of pre-existent, most gracious Guidance in the tree that is neither of the east nor the west (Q. 24:35), the changeable and ephemeral face was honored and glorified by attaining to the ancient, imperishable Countenance. In the blazing fire He discovered the wondrous, inaccessible visage of Guidance which had been concealed in the bosoms of the Unseen. This is that to which He then gave utterance: "or I shall find guidance in this fire." (Q. 20:10). Even so, perceive ye the intent of the blessed verse, "He who made for ye fire from the green tree." (Q. 36:80). O would that there were a listener to comprehend it, and that one drop from the vast ocean of fire, one spark from the storehouse of flames, could be mentioned. But it is better, after all, that this pearl remain hidden within the shell of pure longing and stored in the vessels of secrecy, that every stranger might be excluded and every intimate friend may be garbed in pilgrim's dress before the Ka`bah of splendor, that he may enter the sanctuary of beauty. How happy is the soul that consumes the cage of the body in the flames of the fire of love, and becomes the familiar of the Spirit, that he may attain unto the exalted mercy of repose, and that the lofty bounty of glory may be bestowed upon him. All that of which mention hath been made concerning the ranks of guidance and the grades of self-purification in the station of Moses- -may peace be upon Him and our Prophet--hath reference to the manifestation of these effulgences in the world of outward appearances. Otherwise, that Exalted One was always and shall forever be led by the guidance of God. Nay, more, it was from Him that the sun of guidance dawned and the moon of God's grace appeared. It was from His essential being that the flames of the divine Essence were ignited, and from the brilliance of His forehead that the light of eternity became radiant. He Himself resolved such doubts by the words He spoke when questioned by Pharaoh about the man He had killed. He responded, "I did it indeed, and I was one of those who erred. And I fled from you when I feared you; but My Lord hath given Me judgment and hath made Me One of the Apostles." (Q. 26:20-21). The discourse hath come to an end, though in truth this matter is inexhaustible and unending. Note: This passage is extremely important for Baha'u'llah's theophanology, since it explains how he thought the Manifestation of God could *both* be spoken of as traversing various spiritual stations and growing in spiritual stature *and* could be spoken of as an eternal sun of guidance. The former diction has to do with the tajalli or effulgence/manifestation of these attributes in the external world, while the latter diction has to do with the esoteric world. The metaphysical assumptions here, as Nima will recognize, derive from the Ibn al-`Arabi tradition. Baha'u'llah's solution is important, because otherwise Moses' admission in the Qur'an that he was among the sinners or those gone astray (Da:lli:n) appears to contradict the Shi`ite/Babi tenet of the `iSmat or infallibility/immaculacy of the Prophets. Here is evidence that Baha'u'llah thought prophets could commit murder exoterically while maintaining their immaculacy esoterically (presumably on the level of the Universal Intellect). cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 10:20:56 -0800 From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT ) Subject: Dastardly Plot. To: Talisman@indiana.edu My dear Talismanians Due to dark forces at work , we had no power at Bosch until late last night from Monday . So I have just scanned the wide variety of messages . I shall be posting on Sunday the True story of Linda in DC . Also I have some interesting information on removal of rights in the USA Baha'i Community which I will post as well the publishing issue . Last night I was asked to go to a special fireside in San Jose . The San Jose Chief of Police and the Chairman of the San Jose Airport Commission came to hear about the Faith , great fireside went on after 10.30 started at 7.00 . We are meeting them again to continue. Did you miss me Linda? Kindest Regards Derek Cockshut =END= From: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Subject: Darwin on the Brain... To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:06:10 -0600 (CST) > > Robert Johnston wrote > >>Clearly Darwin's view must be reconciled with 'Abdu'l-Baha's. And I refer > particularly to Darwin's failure to see that -- to paraphrase 'Abdu'l-Baha-- > "man was always man." Sandy Fotos wrote: > > Some Baha'i friends in the natural sciences (and me too, since I have a > background in maine botany )have felt that this statement refers to > potentiality rather than to morphology. > > The particular line which would eventually evolve into humans was always > distinct and identifiable in terms of its future direction, although not in > terms of its physical appearance vis a vis other organisms. > > Again, may I argue for the longitudinal perspective? I guess I see this point coming up again and again among Baha'is, that is: physically humans resemble animals but their line was distinct all along... I just want to say that in terms of the natural sciences, I can see no way whatsoever of making this a meaningful statement. In other words you can make the claim that a billion years ago Amoeba A mutated and gave rise to one lineage of organisms and Amoeba B mutated and gave rise to another lineage of organisms including humans, however there would be no empirical way of demonstrating that Amoeba A and Amoeba B were distinct in some significant way (at least biologically/physically) such that humans had to evolve from Amoeba B rather than Amoeba A. As far was I can see the only way to make the distinction of humans from other creatures, all along, plausible in any way is to argue the point metaphysically/metaphorically. This, argument,however, rests primarily on Faith rather than empirical verifiability and will tend to carry little weight with individuals outside of the Faith. A variation on the separateness of humans theme is to point out how distinct humans are in terms of their non-physical qualities; that is, physically humans resemble animals, but "spiritually" they are distinct and have been all along. The "hard" response from your average biologist will be that what distinguishes humans is their sophisticated brain, which incidentally, evolved physically along with the rest of the body. This is a very tough problem to think about and we need good thinking on this issue to become more convincing to the rest of the world. I don't mean to sound cynical or negative, but I've tended to observe a tendency within the Baha'i community to gloss over these sorts of issues, which are actually of fundamental importance in properly "squaring" reason with faith.. How can we make a convincing case that humans are not extremely sophisticated animals, what arguments can we make that it's not just a better brain that distinguishes us; why argue that we have a soul or talk about "spirituality" if it might all amount to having better biochips in head!! We can do it, but we need to try!! Philosophers of science grab your pens!!! OK, I'll get off my soap-box now... Warmest Regards to All! Ken =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 14:26:53 From: "Stockman, Robert" To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Ahang Rabbani" Subject: Re[2]: Quddus Have we any idea whether the number "500,000" was meant to be literal or figurative? For example, in *God Passes By* Shoghi Effendi says Baha'u'llah composed one hundred volumes of works. We now know he wrote 15,000-20,000 tablets, but the Guardian did not have access to such a statistic; under such circumstances, "100 volumes" is an excellent way of making the scale of Baha'u'llah's revelation apparent. But the number probably is not literal. -- Rob Stockman ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Quddus Author: "Ahang Rabbani" at INTERNET Date: 12/16/95 11:17 AM [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII] Dear Sen, You wrote: > On 9 November Ahang posted a piece on Quddus's Commentary on the Sad > of Samad, in which he said that this was variously stated as being > 500,000 verses and 6 times as long as the Quran. The later figure > should at any rate be a 3: the reference is on p 357: > In the days of his confinement in the town of Sari, Quddus, whom > Mirza Muhammad-Taqi had requested to write a commentary on the Surih > of Ikhlas, better known as the Surih of Qul Huva'llahu'l-Ahad, > composed, in his interpretation of the Sad of Samad alone, a treatise > which was thrice as voluminous as the Qur'an itself. Actually the passage you quote continues to say: "That exhaustive and masterly exposition had profoundly impressed Mirza Muhammad-Taqi and had been responsible for the marked consideration which he showed towards Quddus, although in the end he joined the Sa'idu'l-'Ulama' in compassing the death of the heroic martyrs of Shaykh Tabarsi. Quddus continued, while besieged in that fort, to write his commentary on that Surih, and was able, despite the vehemence of the enemy's onslaught, to pen as many verses as he had previously written in Sari in his interpretation of that same letter." The way I read these, and I'm very much open to receiving corrections, is that Quddus wrote half of it, 3 times the size of Qur'an in Sari and then the second half, hence a total of 6 Qur'an, at Fort Tabarsi. Does that make sense? Did I misread Nabil? The passage in the Dawnbreakes continues yet to say: "The rapidity and copiousness of his composition, the inestimable treasures which his writings revealed, filled his companions with wonder and justified his leadership in their eyes. They read eagerly the pages of that commentary which Mulla Husayn brought to them each day and to which he paid his share of tribute." Believe me (and if you don't ask Juan Cole who knows Quddus infinitely better than I), these statement are so true. His composition is so fantastic that it overwhelms. > I assume that the 500,000 is mythical rather than arithmetical in the > case of Quddus: what about the Bab? Give his long confinement and the > availability of secretaries, is 500,000 verses entirely unrealistic > in his case? Again, for now, I'm sticking to my theory that certain references to Quddus and the Bab are mixed up because of the identical titles that they had and that's where Nabil got confused over 500,000 verses for Quddus. The figure for the total amount of Bab's Writings as 500,000 verses, as you well know, comes form the Persian Bayan. Now that was written mid point (3 years) into his Ministry. Of the remaining years, He wrote very little (actually only massive Tablets of Visitation for Quddus and Mulla Husayn) and a Persian work, and a few other odds and ends, from May 1849 (Quddus' martyrdom) to July 1850. So basically the last 14 months of His life He composed little. That leaves us with nearly 2 years between the time of His statement in the Persian Bayan to May 1849. He must have composed many, many items during this period, so in my view 500,000 is a gross underestimate. Besides look at the volume of His Writings contained in INBA series. Its huge. I don't know how many verses, but its huge. Now, does it add up to 7 or 8 hundred thousands verses (or at least 500,000 as testified in the Persian Bayan)? No way! Probably half of it. Maybe even less. Ergo, a large chunk (half?) is missing. But the rumor has it that there is hope .... ;-} Do others (John, Juan, Lambden...) have a thought on these? I for one am very interested to learn what you have to share. regards, ahang. =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 14:26:49 From: "Stockman, Robert" To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: 90s pub stats Fascinating statistics. But they need to be normalized to English-language membership to be useful. The Baha'is probably have about 250,000 English language speakers worldwide; the Mormons, five million (4.5 million of the some 8 million Mormons woldwide live in the U.S.); the Adventists, a million or so (there are 750,000 Seventh Day Adventists in the US alone). Spiritualism is a vaguely defined movement and I don't know what the estimates for membership are, but it is also a subject of a lot of popular and scholarly literature. The Christian Scientists probably have about twice the English-speaking membership of the Faith worldwide, so their numbers are comparable. It is not clear to me that one can conclude much about the impact of prepublication review from the statistics below. Considering how obscure we are in academia, the number of publications listed below seems pretty good to me. -- Rob Stockman ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: 90s pub stats Author: "K. Paul Johnson" at INTERNET Date: 12/15/95 4:00 PM One last time-- it occurred to me that it would be more instructive in terms of measuring the effect of current policy to look at current publishing rates. So I got just the 1990s publications, all formats, all languages, for the six groups in question. Theosophy falls to last place, showing our lack of membership growth in the last few decades, but Baha'i still lags way behind all the others: Mormon 1886, Adventist 1107, Spiritualist 673, Christian Science 359, Baha'i 255, Theosophy 191. On a per capita basis, I think the Theosophists are still the bibliophiles par excellence. =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 14:53:50 -0600 (CST) From: Paul Easton To: Talisman Subject: Re-Intro and Ignorant Questions... Allah'u'abha! After having been unsubscribed from Talisman for some time I have decided to jump in again. However I chose to do so at an inopportune time - as I have 6 finals next week, so I don't expect to be very active in the discussions for a week or so. My name is Paul Chistopher Easton and I am an undergraduate ( soon to be 2nd Semester Senior ) at the the University of Wisconsin - Stevens Point. My major is International Studies, with an Asian emphasis and a Religious Studies minor. I became a Baha'i two years ago in Taiwan where I was teaching English as a respite from school. I speak "survival Chinese" ( excuse me, waiter! my snails are still moving... ) and - if all goes well - I'll be studying Chinese full-time next fall at the Mandarin Training Center, National Taiwan Normal University on a scholarship - would it be innappropriate to ask for a few prayers for acceptance to be directed my way? My interest in Baha'i Scholarship began when I returned to the United States. My great-great grandfather, Peter Z. Easton, was a missionary in Tabriz. Thinking that perhaps he would have known something about the Babi and Baha'i Faiths I began searching for his writings. Under one search (this still being before I had actually read any of Peter Z's writings) the name Mirza Abu'l-Fadl appeared. That sounded promising, so I posted to BAHAI-DICUSS asking if anyone had heard of this person, esp. in connection with Peter Z. Easton. Well I'm still tasting the aftertaste of my foot, but I do appreciate the help and kindness offered by those who did respond. Since then Mirza Abu'l-Fadl has become one of my heros, not only as a Baha'i scholar, but also a man who had overcome both his earlier hubris and quite an addiction to nicotine. Both of which I have had to deal with my self. An on-going project is still trying to dig up more info on Peter Z. Easton and to find out what happened to his library in Tabriz after he died. Also, I am interested in studying the Baha'i Faith in China, and in East Asia in general. Interests also include: canoeing, backpacking, HTML, Richard Braughtigan, Eastern Religious Philosophy, relationships, people and thinking about those things that I will never be able to understand - in hopes that I may grasp a few of the little problems in life. Pet peeves include: scholars who tackle each other instead of issues and people who complain about the weather more than once a day. This is longer than I had intended it to be, I need to study for my finals and the computer lab I'm at is closing. So I will have to save my ignorant questions for later. Glad to be back! Looking forward to fruitful discussions. Yours, _____________________________________________________________________________ Paul C. Easton _____________________________________________________________________________ HOME || WORK ________________________________________||___________________________________ 2321 Jersey Street || UW-Stevens Point Stevens Point, WI 54481 || International Programs || Stevens Point, WI 54481-3897 PHONE: (715) 344-4174 || PHONE: (715) 346-2717 E-MAIL: peaston@worf.uwsp.edu || FAX: (715) 346-3591 ________________________________________||___________________________________ O Lord! make us firm in Thy love and cause us to be loving toward the whole of mankind. Confirm us in service to the world of humanity, so that we may become the servants of Thy servants, that we may love all Thy creatures and become compassionate to all Thy people. -`Abdu'l-Baha' =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 15:00:14 From: "Stockman, Robert" To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain... I quite agree with Ken; we can only understand humanity as "separate" in some sort of metaphorical way. If we assume that humanity as a species has always been biologically separate from all other life on earth, then we must dismiss anatomical and biochemical similarities as coincidence. And when one considers that our genetic material is 98% similar to chimpanzees this would be an extraordinary argument indeed. It would be about as scientifically meaningful as the argument that Genesis and evolution can be reconciled by realizing the devil created the fossils. When one takes such an approach, the harmony of science and religion collapses. But I think there are also philosophical problems with `Abdu'l-Baha's argument even when it is taken as a metaphorical statement. The best way of reconciling `Abdu'l-Baha and evolution is to argue that the first life form on earth was the ancestor of all life on earth, and therefore was the ancestor of humanity as well, and thus was "potentially human." As life evolved and species split off the trunk of the tree that led to modern homo sapiens sapiens, they ceased to have the potential to be human and thus were ordinary life forms. Presumably this means that at the level of individual life forms that one individual had the potential to be human because it produced descendants that eventually were us, whereas the individual's brother produced descendants that became something else. Thus within one "family" some members were potentially human and others were not, and thus some had souls and others did not. Yet the individuals might not have had any significant genetic differences between them; it might be that X was potentially human because of something a great great great granddaughter did accidentally that led to that line's survival and mutation into something slightly different, whereas Y had one descendant who accidentally fell off a cliff before reproducing, and thus Y is not potentially human. Obviously, scientists would be very uncomfortable with the theoretical and untestable notion that individual amoeba X had a soul and her brother amoeba Y did not. So we must remember that this idea exists and makes sense only in the realms of theology, not in the realm of science. We can hardly fault Darwin for that. Another interesting implication of `Abdu'l-Baha's theory is that it turns the usual popular conception of evolution on its head: evolution was not the ascent of man, but the descent of everything else from man. Strange. But perhaps all of this is to philosophize too much. It is better to remember (1) `Abdu'l-Baha was making theological statements, not scientific ones, and possibly not even philosophical ones; and (2) this should be viewed in the realm of metaphor, and metaphors can never be pushed too far. -- Rob Stockman ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Darwin on the Brain... Author: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu at INTERNET Date: 12/16/95 1:33 PM > > Robert Johnston wrote > >>Clearly Darwin's view must be reconciled with 'Abdu'l-Baha's. And I refer > particularly to Darwin's failure to see that -- to paraphrase 'Abdu'l-Baha-- > "man was always man." Sandy Fotos wrote: > > Some Baha'i friends in the natural sciences (and me too, since I have a > background in maine botany )have felt that this statement refers to > potentiality rather than to morphology. > > The particular line which would eventually evolve into humans was always > distinct and identifiable in terms of its future direction, although not in > terms of its physical appearance vis a vis other organisms. > > Again, may I argue for the longitudinal perspective? I guess I see this point coming up again and again among Baha'is, that is: physically humans resemble animals but their line was distinct all along... I just want to say that in terms of the natural sciences, I can see no way whatsoever of making this a meaningful statement. In other words you can make the claim that a billion years ago Amoeba A mutated and gave rise to one lineage of organisms and Amoeba B mutated and gave rise to another lineage of organisms including humans, however there would be no empirical way of demonstrating that Amoeba A and Amoeba B were distinct in some significant way (at least biologically/physically) such that humans had to evolve from Amoeba B rather than Amoeba A. As far was I can see the only way to make the distinction of humans from other creatures, all along, plausible in any way is to argue the point metaphysically/metaphorically. This, argument,however, rests primarily on Faith rather than empirical verifiability and will tend to carry little weight with individuals outside of the Faith. A variation on the separateness of humans theme is to point out how distinct humans are in terms of their non-physical qualities; that is, physically humans resemble animals, but "spiritually" they are distinct and have been all along. The "hard" response from your average biologist will be that what distinguishes humans is their sophisticated brain, which incidentally, evolved physically along with the rest of the body. This is a very tough problem to think about and we need good thinking on this issue to become more convincing to the rest of the world. I don't mean to sound cynical or negative, but I've tended to observe a tendency within the Baha'i community to gloss over these sorts of issues, which are actually of fundamental importance in properly "squaring" reason with faith.. How can we make a convincing case that humans are not extremely sophisticated animals, what arguments can we make that it's not just a better brain that distinguishes us; why argue that we have a soul or talk about "spirituality" if it might all amount to having better biochips in head!! We can do it, but we need to try!! Philosophers of science grab your pens!!! OK, I'll get off my soap-box now... Warmest Regards to All! Ken =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:11:38 -0500 (EST) From: Richard Vernon Hollinger To: Paul Easton Cc: Talisman Subject: Re: Re-Intro and Ignorant Questions... On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, Paul Easton wrote: > My interest in Baha'i Scholarship began when I returned to the United > States. My great-great grandfather, Peter Z. Easton, was a missionary in > Tabriz. This is fascinating. Are you a first-generation Baha'i? I always suspected that someone in the Easton family was friendly to the Faith, because on two different occassions I have come accross postcards from Peter Z. Easton (from Tabriz) dating from the late nineteenth century, in the papers of Baha'is: once in the Los Angeles Baha'i Archives and once in the papers Charles Mason Remey at Yale. In neither instance was there in indication as to how the cards got there, but I suspected that someone in his family might have given them to Baha'i friends because they depicted sites in Iran. > An on-going project is still trying to dig up more info on Peter Z. > Easton and to find out what happened to his library in Tabriz after he > died. I belive there is correspondence from and biographical material about Peter Z. Easton in the holdings of the Presbyterian Historical Society, in Philadelphia. Cheers, Richard =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 18:02:15 -0600 (CST) From: Saman Ahmadi To: talisman Subject: Baha'i Encyclopedia / Zuhurul Haq Dear Ahang and All, Hopefully we can learn from past mistakes. One note though: Ali Akbar Furutan has a special place in the hearts of Baha'is - especially Iranian Baha'is (he is probably thought of the same as William Sears is thought of in the West). Most likely due to his incredible memory - I was in Haifa in May and the fortune of meeting him - he is in his late 80's or early 90's. When I introduced myself and told him where my father was from, he immediately remembered something about that area and my father's greater family. Ofcourse that does not say anything about his actions in the Fadil Mazandarani episode. It seems from what you said Mazandarani decided not to press the issue with the Guardian. It also seems that he did not stop his scholarship - just did not let many people know about it. Hopefull, someday soon we can benefit from his works - which btw sound incredibly massive. As you probably guessed by now I have another of my suggestions - being hopelessly optimistic I'll keep suggesting until somebody says stop :-) And even then, my conscience will say to keep at it ;-) May be we can vote on the following: to formally ask the staff of the World Centre's Research Department to come online to Talisman - and not just as lurkers. The give and take, I feel, can be beneficial - Robert Stockman who is the director of the US Research Office is online; a fact that I think the other scholars present here (and the rest of us) greatly appreciate. And one observation: can we not assume that since Talisman is here and has the tacit approval of the House that there has been a passive change in policy with regards to scholarship: we have seen provisional translations, Baha'i Encyclopedia articles, the "Service of Women" paper, threads on just about every conroversial subject within the Faith - all without review. In spite of the occasional food fights (and I have thrown my share of tomatoes) this is a watershed event - I hope we can make the best of it. take care, sAmAn =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 13:44:31 +1200 To: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu, talisman@indiana.edu From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain... Dear Ken, You wrote: "This, argument,however, rests primarily on Faith rather than empirical verifiability and will tend to carry little weight with individuals outside of the Faith." Response: One can't bend reality so that it suits the candy-floss fantasies of a bewildered humanity. The '"hard" response from your average biologist' is a pretty cynical position. Why accord it any real value? If we accept humanity in a foetus then, logically, why should be not accord humanity to our ancestor who looked like a possum? I yawn, actually. How many times does it need to be stated that the Baha'i conception of science is not limited to empiricism...before it really sinks in. Robert (a barking ant with a long nose in a black mood) Johnston. =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 13:52:17 +1200 To: "Stockman, Robert" , talisman@indiana.edu From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain... Robert Stockman wrote: It is better to > remember (1) `Abdu'l-Baha was making theological statements, not > scientific ones, and possibly not even philosophical ones; This appears to marginalise the station of 'Abdu'l-Baha to the outskirts of science. Even the fool Heidegger knew that modern science was a mere branch of metaphysics. Robert, if you can prove 'Abdu'l-Baha wrong, then I'll listen. If you can't then I humbly suggest you give Him the benefit of the doubt...[at least] Robert (barking mad on a long black Sunday afternoon) Johnston =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 14:02:47 +1200 To: talisman@indiana.edu From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) Subject: Re: intelligent readers Linda, Your wrote: >Robert, the answer to your question as to whether we have any intelligent >readers of history (incl. evolution) is: YES! Linda Oh? Please name someone here who has understood the Baha'i teachings on evolution, has reconciled them with Darwinism, and has provided ( or is able to provide) scholarly evidence of his/her insights? Really, this is just the same old Socrates story in a different outfit. Why don't we go back and fight that one out again? I'd really love to hear the comments of John and Juan re. the House letter. Robert (a long black springing dog-ant) Johnston =END= From: TLCULHANE@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 21:08:54 -0500 To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Baha'u'llah's notes to Od... Juan : Goodness this just keeps getting better . You already know I am partial to this "poem ". Are there more notes to this as well ? For what its worth it seems to me there is a liturgical feast herein as well as among additional of Baha u llah's works along the same lines . All it takes is a little imagination and permission for the friends to explore this revelatory material . One of the things that is always painfully aware to me when speaking with members of other religious traditions is the paucity of criticl work that would constitute a body of spirituality. It is material like this which aids considerably in building that "praxis " . I for one appreciate a great deal the time and effort tha goes into all this . The fruits , if the friends will make use of it , will be enormous . It will also go a long way to demonstrating to and for others that there is a very real sense of spirituality in the Faith of Bahau llah. This one I am going to be sharing with the Jewish folks I made reference to earlier in Inter -faith dialogue . There is a Syrian Orthodox priest whom I have known for several years now - he is well aware of the Faith - who I have discussed some of this with . He is a deeply virtuous man and one of his remaeks a few years back to me was that of the material on the Faith he had seen was much like the kind of things that children are taught in Sunday schools . He wondered where the "heart" of the Faith was its spiritual praxis . Lasat spring I shared with him your original "Ode" translation and this summer Stephens work on the Halih . He is beginning to think there may be something substantive about this Bahu llah thing after all other than that I may happen to be an intersting guy . He is not likely to become a Bahai and thst is not my goal, frankly, but he does have a more favorable view of "Bahai" than before . Again it just opens up doors for "consorting with the followers of all religions in friendliness and fellowship ." He and I have on occasion , amidst the light and incense of the church recited together the "Jesus Prayer " . Whew - now that is a powereful one . I have already informed him that a little spiritual quid pro quo requires the same with regard to some things from the "Ode" and "Halih" and the song of the Heavenly Dove ( Her song as Baha says after all ) " Thou art God . There is no God but Thee. He has let me practice to my hearts content the "Alastu bi rabbikun" over the years . To make a long story short I hope you and others will continue to make available this kind of Bahau llahs work . I hope some critical work will be done as well . I have so little to give my orthodox friend that addresses context and commentary; the kind of work that makes Revelation come alive and like a great story you just cant wait to tell others . It is in the spiritual praxis that grows out of worship that lies transformation - and our ability to truly attract the hearts of the world . FOR JOHN : A reminder the *Deathless Youth* :) warm regards , Terry =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 21:29:22 EWT From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: standing by my words To: talisman@indiana.edu Dear Robert, I do think that Ken and Rob's excellent responses on the subject of evolution are quite adequate to prove my point that there are highly intelligent and knowledgeable people here on Talisman who can explain the concept quite adequately. I refuse to return to the bad old days when science had to conform to theology. And, I trust you read the posting from Juan of Abdu'l Baha's talk in New York. This says it all. We should not follow blindly. I feel quite confident that, if the information we have now on evolution were available to Abdu'l Baha, that he would have explained things differently. He was not a scientist. He was a true religious leader - a moral guide for us to follow. It belittles his station (in my eyes) to make him into some cult figure who somehow had all knowledge of all aspects of life. This was not his claim, Robert. We should read his words to feed our hearts, not to nit pick about scientific issues. Let's leave that to the scientists, please!! I found Ahang's posting about the story of Fadil to be both fascinating and heart wrenching. I suppose I can relate so strongly to it because of the Encyclopoedia project. Three cheers for the battle against Fundamentalism! And, Derek. Long may your power outage continue. Dear friends, just as I was posting this note to Derek, the telphone rang. It was my dear nemisis, Derek. He and Burl now have a campaign of telephone torment. I will never be left in peace. I dread tuning into Talisman on Monday for the Derek and Burl scandal hour. They admit to conspiring against me. Is this the example that Abdu'l Baha gave us? Should we not be asking ourselves, would Abdu'l Baha approve of Derek and Burl's treatment of me? (We are supposed to ask ourselves questions like that, aren't we?) By the way, Burl has unsubscribed from Talisman for the week. However, I do believe that he will be sorry. I suggest that everyone forward their messages to Burl this week to make sure he has plenty of reading material when he returns. Thank you in advance for your cooperation in this matter. Linda =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 22:11:36 EWT From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Evolution To: talisman@indiana.edu I remember smugly telling seekers at firesides that because Baha'is believed in the harmony of science and religion, we would not be in the foolish position of having to deny the discoveries of modern biology. I have a private theory that before God absolves me and leaves me in peace as a Baha'i, all the things that I did while I was young and fanatical will be visited on my head. The following is a paragraph I wrote for the article on evolution in the Baha'i Encyclopedia: ******* AB's statements on evolution reflect the unease of many thoughtful religious people of the time at the use and misuse of Darwinist concepts. Evolution was being used as a justification for the abandonment of traditional religious and spiritual ideas, of standards of decency and kindness, and of the social solidarity that made the rich and powerful responsible for the well-being of the poorer and weaker memebers of society. The formulation given in this talk is clearly AB's attempt to offer a way out of this dilemma, using the philosophical and theological concepts of the sophisticated Iranian philosophical tradition, which since the work of the great philosopher Mulla Sadra in the 17th century, had seen the transformation of substance as a key to understanding the deepest nature of being and the godhead. Thus, AB's statements on evolution should be read not literally as corrections to a particular scientific theory but as affirmations that scientific truth must be understood in the context of a spiritual view of the universe. ********* As to the larger question of Abdu'l-Baha's omniscience on scientific and scholarly matters, I offer the following anecdote. Those who have heard it before, such as my dear wife, may go on to the next posting: When I was in Haifa on pilgrimage some years ago, as custom dictates I went to pray at the deathbed of Abdu'l-Baha. Now, since this was day eight, not counting the earlier visits to Jerusalem, Bethleham, and Nazareth, I was rather shrined out. I knelt by the bed, assumed the expression of pious blankness learned in childhood, and tried to read the titles of the books on the bedside table that, I fancied, were being read to Abdu'l-Baha during his last illness. One was a volume of the *Da'irat al-Ma'arif*, the first great modern Arabic encyclopedia. john walbridge =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 19:49:59 -0800 From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT ) Subject: Fwd: standing by my words To: talisman@indiana.edu ---- Begin Forwarded Message From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu X-To: PO%"talisman" Subject: standing by my words To: talisman@indiana.edu Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk ! And, Derek. Long may your power outage continue. ''My Dear Linda Your worst nightmare happened not only has the power been restored but my computor has been given the kiss of life , back again to bring the truth to the nations .'' Dear friends, just as I was posting this note to Derek, the telphone rang. It was my dear nemisis, Derek. He and Burl now have a campaign of telephone torment. I will never be left in peace. I dread tuning into Talisman on Monday for the Derek and Burl scandal hour. They admit to conspiring against me. ''Burl and I has good supportive friends naturally speak to each other. Linda has locked John up in a cupboard under the stairs because he tried to tell the truth over DC , is this the example of correct behaviour ?'' Is this the example that Abdu'l Baha gave us? Should we not be asking ourselves, would Abdu'l Baha approve of Derek and Burl's treatment of me? (We are supposed to ask ourselves questions like that, aren't we?) By the way, Burl has unsubscribed from Talisman for the week. However, I do believe that he will be sorry. I suggest that everyone forward their messages to Burl this week to make sure he has plenty of reading material when he returns. Thank you in advance for your cooperation in this matter. Linda Would all those who feel Linda is being unfair to John please E'Mail her and those who believe she is acting correctly please E"Mail her . We would like a report , young lady , on this matter . A Tit-bit from Monday's posting Linda caused a major problem by carrying a large banner that read ' Shi'ite's Rule Forever 'at the lecture on the 4 rightful Caliphs and throwing two custard pies at the presenter . Her falling over on the bus was a result of grapping hold of both ears of Nima's idol Sorush and hollering this is what Lyndon Johnson did to the amazed bus riders. The poor chap now has sore enlarged ears and hasn't a clue who Lyndon Johnson was . These and more are some of the trials of John Walbridge at Mensa without the n in DC . John may shortly be receiving a very high honor because of his trials and tribulations with Linda , watch for Monday . Kindest Regards Derek Cockshut =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 21:53:01 -0500 From: "Ahang Rabbani" To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Fadil [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII] Just got back from taking my boys to see Giumonji; absolutely a must-see movie, filled with great action... though our 7 year old will probably sleep in our bed tonight. Robin Williams is great. This must be a brief note as I'm very tired. But judging by the number of private emails, it clear that the memory of Fadil has touched many hearts. I will deal with some of the specifics privately. However do want to comment on a couple of things. 1. A dear friend objected to my comparison of Zuhuru'l-Haqq and Encyclopedia project and specifically my use of the expression "a lot of similarities" between the two. I really feel this friend is right and there are not "a lot" of similarities between the two events. After all: one took place in Iran, the other in the States; one was in 30's and 40's, the other in 80's and 90's; one involved a single man, the other a whole Board; one involved materials in Persian, the other is solely in English; one required intervention of the Guardian, the other the House; etc., etc., ... Yes, I agree that there are not "a lot" of similarities, ... just the tiny one that neither work has seen the light of day. Oh well, I stand corrected. 2. Another wanted to know who the "bad guys" were in ZH's episode. The answer to that question is very simple: there were none. On one side of the debate was Fadil with his impeccable record, and on the other side were folks like Ishraq-Khavari (a profoundly magnificent man whom I love just as much as I love Fadil) plus the NSA of Iran (4 of whom were elevated to the rank of the Hands and again I deeply love and admire each of them and grew up with their names on our lips and in our heart). So, when I say there were no "bad guys", I mean exactly that! There was not a single person, in my view, who acted out of self interest or maliciously. The issues became complex. Remember that this debate spanned over two decades, perhaps more, to unfold and there are many correspondences from the beloved Guardian which I have not seen on this subject, so its not just confined to the mickymouse letter that the NSA published in 1951. I just wanted to share my strong belief that this episode involved men, each with historic contributions to the Cause, acting in the very best interest of the community. As such, we must be very careful not to oversimply the issues. In this regard, there *is* a great deal of similarity between the ZH episode and Encyclopedia project. 3. My comments about fundamentalism in the community is solely in regard to the attitude of certain believes regarding the literal exactness of the Dawnbreakers. Those who feel that the Dawnbreakers is the "standard" in the sense that it contains no error, well here is a news flash: You are wrong. With that, I'm off to bed. love, ahang. =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 18:02:55 -0700 To: talisman@indiana.edu From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller) Subject: Re: Homosexuality Cc: lua@sover.net Dear Luanne, I have not yet seen another reply to your posting ( which I have quoted below in full in case any others may have discarded it or misplaced it) which I think and feel is one of the more profound and insightful postings shared on Talisman since I have been a subscriber. Thank you for sharing the "in-sights" from your journey of healing. I urge others to read it and reread it for clues as to the "depth" dynamic of what it is we are trying to "access" or get ahold of in terms of our inherent human/spiritual nature. Unless one has started to access the unconscious aspect of one's self by way of healing - using all the potency of one's own determination alongside the powerful prayers given to us for purposes of healing - it is difficult to understand the place you are speaking from. If one does not urge him/herself on in this task, however, crisis will force the issue. Of course, the crisis is already upon us. Will fears keep us up in our heads and away from the underlying pain? - the energy we need to make it through is being tied up in the futile attempts our bodies use to fend off the pain. It is in embracing the pain, however, that we find the way to release the energy used to defend ourselves -as you have intimated - against loss of control. As with all things paradoxical in this mysterious universe, by giving in we don't lose, we transform! Without change through self-transformation, individuals tend to judge the Faith, its Institutions, and other people, for example, with only the tools of an unawakened lower human nature. The knowledge we of necessity must seek, in order to grow, is pointed to in your posting. I hope many Talisman readers will look at it again and ponder what you are telling us. Luanne, are you a subscriber to the Baha'i-Intuition mailing list? If not, may I have your permission to post your message on that list? There may be a number of Baha'is interested in this area who subscribe to that list but not to Talisman. Looking forward to hearing from you. I still owe you a private response on the Marion Woodman book, which I haven't gotten to yet. Baha'i love, your brother, Henry Luanne, in her posting entitled: Homosexuality, dated 12/14/95 wrote: >The question I raise with regard to my own struggles to obey Baha'i law is: >do I believe that Baha'u'llah has a prospective which I do not possess, and >which is enjoined upon me for the benefit of my soul, or do I make wrong His >perspective in favor of my own inclinations or for my own comfort. I have >several friends who are homosexual or bisexual, and my impression of their >inclinations is that this lifestyle is largely chosen (unconcsciously, for >the most part) to avoid issues that are highly charged and emotionally very >uncomfortable. It is easier for them to live this way in order not to have >triggered much unfinished conflict, usually within their family of origin, >and in order to support certain viewpoints gathered from such experience, >such as "Men only want one thing," "So this is how men and women treat >eachother after the courtship is over," "All women do is try to control >you," etc. etc. etc. I am not meaning to oversimplify this issue, but in >my own journey of healing I have encountered again and again distortions in >my own thinking that subtlely controlled my behavior in ways that I didn't >for most of my life understand and struggled like a fiend to try to make >sense of or justify. These attitudes frequently don't even belong to us, >but are broadcast in the very gestures of our parents and those around us >when we are young. Until we uncover them and see their power over us, we go >on making choices (usually unhealthy) that are based upon the operation of >these distortions. Burl's posting addressed this very clearly. I am not >saying that this is universally the case, but our family issues are at the >root of most of our pathologies. It seems that these inclinations can occur >very early in life, apparently as some natural state. Are not most of our >idiosyncracies some sort of defense mechanism or coping skill formed in >response to unpleasant or even unbearable situations? Supposing them to be >our inherent qualities makes little more sense to me than supposing that we >live many lifetimes in order to explain these character and personality traits. > >As far as genetics are concerned, I am no authority on this any topic, >except my own search. So from the perspective that God tests his servants, >perhaps even this genetic fluke, this accident of chromosomal arrangement is >every bit His Will as the tests that all of us endure. I have my own set >that I have spent years sorting through and continue to struggle with, and >by and large, although the pain involved in facing my own history has been >and is from time to time excruciating, I can see these events as a mercy in >the long run - they have challenged me, have required that I surrender my >will again and again and again in order to survive the onslaught of this >world. We all suffer, we are all brought to our knees in one way or >another, because most of us if given the choice would never choose this path. > >Someone mentioned chakras. This is one of those phenomena (like gravity), >the source of which is unseen. I believe that they are qute literal, and >consistent in their properties. The second chakra, the sex chakra is the >center of sensuality and creativity. If there are distortions around issues >such as whether or not we were touched as children, whether that touch was >safe and appropriate, whether our creativity was encouraged, whether we were >allowed some expression of that creativity, or had our need for touch and >closeness validated, whether we experienced physical pleasure, or whether >all of these healthy aspects of ourselves were suppressed/denied/kicked out >of us, then disortions will arise in our interactions with others, in our >abilty to relate in healthy ways to others. Sexual abuse and domestic >violence does much to destroy our ability to relate to our own creative >urges and yearnings, let alone our sensuality. The example of (was it you, >David?) the woman who mistook her spritual yearning for sexual attraction is >only one configuration of how this can play itself out in our interactions >with other human beings. > >John Upledger, DO, founder of the Upledger Institute has done years of >medical research (Michigan State University) on the nature of fascial >restrictions and restrictions within the craniosacral membrane itself. He >has discovered that the nature of all these restrictions is energetic, the >sources of which can be physical, emotional, or spiritual in nature, yet >they all manifest physically: at times as simple tissue restrictions, but >they can ultimately lead to diseases in the organs and tissues (utilizing >the meridian system) if the restriction remains over a period of time. In >other words, the roots of many diseases are energetic (vibrational) in >nature. Imagine that. Uncovering the traumatic source of the restriction >can be accessed directly throught the tissue (it has memory and is >consciously accessible). He has documented case after case of physical and >psychological symptoms (as well as many learning disabilties) that have >responded positively to Craniosacral Therapy and Somato Emotional Release >techniques. He is no New Age cook or weirdo, but an osteopathic physician >who is pioneering methods of treating "hopeless" or "inexplicable >(psychosomatic)" conditions. The medical community is just beginning to >give ear. Perhaps we need more time to uncover the various causes of >homosexuality and need not rush to conclude that all the "scientific" >evidence is in. > >I, too, have known several people who decided that they were homosexual, >only to change their minds years later. With the current state of >male/female relationships in this culture it is tempting to bag it and adopt >an alternative lifestyle, gathering evidence along the way for why you are >doing what you are doing. Again, I mean no offense, nor do I mean to making >sweeping generalizations, or to take lightly the suffering that accompanies >the decision or conclusion that one is gay. But it seems that the standard >of modern Western culture is being upheld as the Truth in many postings and >I have to question this. I have no idea what it is like to be a homosexual, >I have not suffered the prejudices and inequities that homosexuals have >suffered. Can we trust the Western Medical model any more than the mores of >our society, that model being the product of this society? I long for >something more. > >Loving Regards, >LuAnne Henry W. Miller Martinez, California,U.S.A. hwmiller@ccnet.com hwmiller@eworld.com 510-372-0709 =END= From: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain... To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 23:31:40 -0600 (CST) Dear Robert you wrote: > > "This, > argument,however, rests primarily on Faith rather than empirical verifiability > and will tend to carry little weight with individuals outside of the > Faith." > > Response: One can't bend reality so that it suits the candy-floss fantasies > of a bewildered humanity. Well I suppose the answer from our cynical biologist would be "One can't bend reality so that it suits the candy-floss explanations of your theology". The crux of the issue, I think, is to distinguish between those questions whose answers can be determined experimentally (e.g. the physical relation of species to one another) in principle and those issues, who by their very nature, are not accessible to experimental proof (e.g. the existence of God). > > The '"hard" response from your average biologist' is a pretty cynical > position. Why accord it any real value? > > If we accept humanity in a foetus then, logically, why should be not accord > humanity to our ancestor who looked like a possum? Very Simple. The (physical) potential of a human foetus to become a (morphologically) recognizable human being can be verified quite easily by experimental means (e.g. genetic testing). The physical potential for a possum to "become" human is demonstrably nil. > > I yawn, actually. How many times does it need to be stated that the Baha'i > conception of science is not limited to empiricism...before it really sinks > in. It is not clear to me that empiricism (in the tradition of Hume) and empirical validation (i.e. validation by repeated experience of multiple individuals) are the same...I believe the latter is fully consistent with the principles of the Faith. Respectfully, Ken =END= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 23:48:07 -0600 To: talisman@indiana.edu From: Steve Jordan Subject: Hello, Talisman Hello All: I have been lurking here on Talisman for the past few weeks, and realized that I need to introduce myself. I am 41, married, with a 10 year old daughter and a five year old son. I live in a suburb of Houston (Friendswood) where I work for a large aerospace company providing support for NASA. How I got in the aerospace business after spending 10 years as a professional musician is still a mystery to many (including myself), but here I am nonetheless. On the spiritual front, I was a Baha'i for about five years, but upon moving to the Houston area, pretty much fell away from the faith. I currently attend a Unitarian Universalist church (I think one of my posts from SRB found its way to Talisman a while back, so forgive me if you've already heard this). I ended up here after pulling together a lesson on the Baha'i faith for the Jr.Hi UU class I help teach. I am now in a quandary since in researching this lesson, I came to the conclusion that I am more in tune with the Baha'is than with UUism. Thus I am taking a good look at my own spiritual path/belief system and reinvestigating the Baha'i Faith. For Anton: Hi. Good to see you made it here. For Mark Foster: I see that you teach at JCCC. This is where I really discovered the Baha'i Faith. Upon quitting the music business in 1983, I returned to school - first stop JCCC (a wonderful school, BTW). My uncle, Dan Jordan, had been murdered about two years prior. I had heard that he was Co-Chairman of the NSA (though I had no idea what that was), and the only newspaper account I had of his murder said that an Iranian group had claimed credit for the deed (to my knowledge, it has never been solved). So, there I was wandering around the JCCC library one day, when I happened upon the religion section. I saw the book "Baha'i World Faith" and decided to see what Dan Jordan may have died for. I opened the book to the twelve principles and my search began. I took that book home and read it, the whole time thinking that this is what I had always believed, but had never seen it laid out like this before. Eventually I found a class being offered through the Communiversity (a sort of Free University in Kansas City) called "One Planet, One People, Please." I thought the title sounded Baha'ish, and sure enough it was a class at the KC Baha'i Center. Mary Rowe taught the course and did a wonderful job of introducing me to the history and tenets of the Baha'i Faith. BTW, if she is still around, please tell her hello for me. I declared about a year or so later, and remained fairly active until relocating to Houston in 1988. There you have it. Probably more than you wanted to know, but far be it from me to go against Talisman customs and Maori etiquette. I look forward to hearing from you all. Regards, Steve jordan@iapc.net =END= From: "Mark A. Foster" Subject: Evolution To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 23:47:05 -0600 (CST) To: talisman@indiana.edu Talismanians - I have read with interest recent posts which attempt to reconcile remarks made by the Master to L.C. Barney with classical evolutionary theory (Darwin and Spencer). I doubt that the issues involved will be resolved all at once. The harmony of science and religion, as envisioned in the Baha'i teachings, has not yet been realized. Once this unity of thought has been achieved, humanity will begin to see reality from an entirely different standpoint. Moreover, I do not think that we have any way of knowing with certainty what new insights and methodologies this remarkable development will produce. IMV, it is far too premature at this point to make any definitive statements. Although I appreciate the views of those who argue that there is a biological link between hominid and animal evolution (whether man from the animals or the animals from man), I have difficulty making this connection from a Baha'i standpoint. The animal is emanated by the animal spirit (the purposeful power of sensation), the vegetable spirit (the purposeful power of growth), and the mineral spirit (the purposeful power of cohesion). It lacks the human spirit and, consequently, does not have the ability, potentially or otherwise, to engage in rational thought. The animal is also absent the spirit of faith and, as a result, cannot receive the divine blessings which come to a being who has consciously recognized the inner evidences of divine Revelation. To my understanding, the human spirit and the spirit of faith are the twin purposeful powers of the soul. These powers, and their various manifestations, are what distinguishes humanity from the animal kingdom. Although man is outwardly like the higher mammals, he is, from a spiritual POV, able to function on an altogether different plane of existence - the spiritual Kingdom revealed. As I see it, the similarity between man and the apes is a sign of the divine ordering of creation. It teaches us about the purposefulness of evolution - a dimension of science which is unattainable using the normal tools of empirical research. It is, IMHO, one of the hidden, or esoteric, implications of the evolutionary process. And could the similarity between man and the apes also be a symbol vehicle for our human potentialities? IOW, despite the many genetic similarities between ourselves and other primates, it is only man who can develop civilization. Seeing what is, in some ways, man minus his spiritual substance in these creatures can both remind us of the need to develop our minds and hearts and teach of about the instinctual, conditioned beings we would be if we did not possess the capacity for human socialization. Bright blessings, Mark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (and Structuralist) * *President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society * *Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality * *Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society * *Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College * * 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. * *Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) * *Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) * *Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); * * 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);* * Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); * * RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ___ * UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God in the diversity of His creation. =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 19:05:02 +1200 To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) Subject: Re: standing by my words Dear Linda, Call me a perverse dog eating ant with a long nose and a short black springy bark if you like, but I stand by my words also. (Though, I liked what John wrote : "Thus, AB's statements onevolution should be read not literally as corrections to a particular scientific theory but as affirmations that scientific truth must be understood in the context of a spiritual view of the universe.") But,alas, my conscience is now instructing me to be silent. I sincerely wish you, Ken and Rob (et al) the greatest contentment with your views... Robert. PS Re: And, I trust you read the posting from Juan of >Abdu'l Baha's talk in New York. No. But then I didn't read Juan's response to the Research Dept. letter re. Socrates either. I'd like to read both sometime. I am also waiting for Chris Buck to supply a full version of the House letter he has recently used to re-assert his view that there were Manifestations of God in the Americas. =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 19:10:59 +1200 To: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu, talisman@indiana.edu From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain... Dear Ken, >Very Simple. The (physical) potential of a human foetus to become a >(morphologically) recognizable human being can be verified quite easily by >experimental means (e.g. genetic testing). The physical potential for a >possum to "become" human is demonstrably nil. Oh: did you find THAT *possum* already, and test it? Robert (about to play possum) =END= From: "Mark A. Foster" Subject: Hello, Talisman To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 01:23:16 -0600 (CST) To: talisman@indiana.edu Steve - What a beautiful and spiritually moving story. Thank you. As you may know, your uncle, Dan Jordan, was one of the closest people to one of spiritual mentors, Marian Lippitt. His ANISA project (an alternative educational model) was based largely on Marian's work in the science of reality which she later incorporated into her Ph.D. dissertation. Dan himself was much loved by the American Baha'i community. You certainly have a proud heritage, Steve. Thanks for the kind words about my employer . Johnson County Community College is, supposedly, one of the five best community colleges in the country, and it consistently turns up at the top of the list on almost all comparative indices. That was part of the draw for me from my previous teaching position in Georgia. But Johnson County, Kansas, is one of the five wealthiest counties in the U.S., so it can afford to put a lot of money into the college! It is nice to know that someone came into the Faith through JCCC. Unfortunately, there are, to the best of my knowledge, no Baha'i students currently at the college. Communiversity is a wonderful continuing education force in the KC area. Of course, most larger cites I am familiar with have similar programs. The majority of the courses tend to be geared toward to personal and career development, neo-paganism, and new-ageism. However, once in a while, someone, like Mary (who is still very much involved in Baha'i activities here), will offer a course in the Faith. A friend of mine is now teaching a course in the Unification Church through Communiversity. Best wishes to you, Steve, in your continuing search! Warm regards to you, Mark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion/Structuralist * *President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society * *Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality * *Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society * *Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College * * 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. * *Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) * *Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) * *Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); * * 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);* * Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); * * RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ___ * UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God in the diversity of His creation. =END= Date: 16 Dec 95 23:38:28 U From: "Dan Orey" Subject: My Favorite Book To: talisman@indiana.edu Cc: SBirkland@aol.com, 103275.1472@compuserv.com, slynch@interserv.com, jfmalaret@ucdavis.edu, Kkonline@aol.com Subject: Time: 8:45 PM OFFICE MEMO My Favorite Book Date: 12/16/95 Citizens of Planet Talisman, I would like to recommend the following book, whose original is in Dutch (I can find the name of the original if needed). The English translation is: Pronk, P. (1993). _Against nature? Types of oral argumentation regarding homosexuality_.Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans Publishing Co. Forward by Hendrick Hart. Pim Pronk's work is probably the finest example of scholarship related to the moral issue that we Baha'is face re: sexual orientation. In this book, Pronk skillfully asks, "What could be done to activate the churches into more actively considering a practice of visible love for homosexuals such that homosexuals themselves would feel accepted?" This is an essential question for Baha'is as well. Hart in the forward states, "No major denomination that condemns homosexual practice shows that its professed love for homosexuals is real by actively protesting the persecution of homosexuals. The church here runs the risk of being fairly accused of injustice by neglecting to advocate on behalf of its homosexual members. It is widely agreed that cultural situations of this kind, where members of a society are condemned because they are different, exist as a result of a widespread prejudice and ignorance rooted in irrational anxiety. It is also widely agreed that only education, information, and advocacy can change this situation. " p. xiv later Pronk states, "Sexual justice calls us to acknowledge and respect the diversity of age, gender, sexual orientation, color, body size and shape, families, and custom. Such diversity enriches rather than diminishes our life together. Justice requires us to promote such diversity. It questions elitist cultural assumptions and stereotypes. In the church, the division is not between homosexuals and heterosexuals, between men and women, or between white and black, but between justice and injustice" (Pronk p. 99). The book jacket states that Pim Pronk teaches dogmatics and philosophy at Hogeschool Holland, an affiliate of Vrije Universitet, Amsterdam, Netherlands. His doctorates are in in biology and theology. regards, Daniel =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 00:32:15 -0700 To: talisman@indiana.edu From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller) Subject: Re: Hello, Talisman Dear Steve Jordan, you wrote, among other things: >>Hello All: Welcome. Interesting that you are(were) a musician like your uncle (Rhodes scholar, music) Dan. I declared as a Baha'i while living in Chicago in December, 1964, while attending Chicago Theological Seminary. I spent my very first Fast with your uncle Dan and his lovely wife, Nancy, and little (at that time) Melissa when they lived at the Univ. of Chicago. I remember those cold, wintry mornings - walking from around 57th Street, across the Midway, with the moon lighting my way, to Dan and Nancy's place. We shared breakfast and prayers. I still have the copy of Prayers And Meditations by Baha'u'llah which Dan and Nancy gave to me: "For Henry, on this great occasion - with a thousand greetings! Love from Dan and Nancy. 7 Dec. 64" It was also your Uncle Dan who drove Ethel and Lacy Crawford and me to the old Baha'i Center in downtown Chicago the night we presented ourselves to the Spiritual Assembly of Chicago. Regards, Henry Henry W. Miller Martinez, California,U.S.A. hwmiller@ccnet.com hwmiller@eworld.com 510-372-0709 =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 01:13:56 -0800 To: Paul Easton , Talisman From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson) Subject: Re: Re-Intro and Ignorant Questions... Welcome Back Paul.... At 02:53 PM 12/16/95 -0600, Paul Easton wrote: >Allah'u'abha! >My name is Paul Chistopher Easton and I am an undergraduate ( soon to be >2nd Semester Senior ) >- I'll be studying >Chinese full-time next fall at the Mandarin Training Center, National >Taiwan Normal University on a scholarship - would it be innappropriate to >ask for a few prayers for acceptance to be directed my way? Paul, you got it... Good luck. > >This is longer than I had intended it to be, I need to study for my >finals and the computer lab I'm at is closing. So I will have to save my >ignorant questions for later. Glad to be back! Looking forward to >fruitful discussions. The only ignorant question is one not asked! >Yours, > Paul C. Easton Warmly, Margreet =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 01:34:01 -0700 To: talisman@indiana.edu From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller) Subject: Re: Re: Evolution Christopher, you wrote, in part, in answer to Cheshmak: > *Ontogeny* relates to the development of the individual, while >*Phyllogeny* pertains to the phyllum. (A new phyllum has just been >discovered--a strange funnel-shaped parasite that lives on the lips of >lobsters.) So, the evolutionary transformations of the phyllum are not >unlike the transformations in the genesis and development of the >individual. The metamorphoses of the fetus was, as you recall, >`Abdu'l-Baha's favorite proof as to why man was still man even when he >looked like a fish. > > Hope this gives you a couple of leads, Cheshmak. > > -- Christopher Buck Christopher, I'm no scientist either, but this reference to "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" brought to mind a book by Sandor Ferenzci, entitled *Thalassa, A Theory of Genitality.* It was difficult to get ahold of back when I was at the University of Rochester years ago. Ferenzci was a student of Freud's at one time, I believe, and developed this theme while discussing psychological issues, including, as I recall, his ideas on the etiology of homosexuality. I also seem to recall that he may have been somewhat discredited due to his illicit sexual relationships with patients. I cannot give a review of its contents, as it relates specifially to theories of evolution, but it does unfold some fascinating discussion about "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny." Might this not also have some connection to the Jungian theory of a "collective unconscious?" That book was recommended to me by Norman O. Brown, author of Love's Body, among other publications. N.O.Brown was my professor for an honors seminar entitled Archetypal Analysis, and I ended up writing a paper on parallels between Jean Danielou, (a French typologist), Teilhard de Chardin, and Sandor Ferenzci. At any rate, it's a fascinating theory. I am interested in tracking down that paper you mentioned, "The Evolution of The Human Brain," by Bruce........? Perhaps Cheshmak, or someone else, has discovered the author's name by now? Regards, Henry Henry W. Miller Martinez, California,U.S.A. hwmiller@ccnet.com hwmiller@eworld.com 510-372-0709 =END= From: SFotos@eworld.com Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 03:12:28 -0800 To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: DNA and Darwin on the brain Dear Talismans, Very interesting to read the different ideas on Darwinism and human evolution from Robert Johnston, Robert Stockman and Ken and the others. I'd like to add two more thoughts. I remember hearing that, during His visit to the US, 'Abdu'l-Baha said that materialism was contagious, just like TB and cancer. At that time, people thought, 'Oh poor 'Abdu'l-Baha. He doesn't know that those diseases can't be passed around.' Of course, the TB bacillus was identified shortly afterwards and some forms of leukemia have been determined to be viral in origin. Recalling the quote, " Knowledge is twenty and seven letters. All that the Prophets have revealed are two letters thereof...But when the Qa'im shall arise, He will cause the remaining twenty five letters to be made manifest."( KI), it is clear that our current level of knowlege in all areas is very, very limited. So we should be quite tentative in evaluating the scientific validity of the Writings in accordance with present theories, etc. For an example of our currently quite minimal knowledge of heredity, consider the following (Source: _The Sciences_ 35 (3): 8-9. New York Academy of Sciences) There is a lot of DNA in cells but only about 3% encodes for the manufacture of proteins. The other 97% has been called "junk" DNA and has been ignored since it doesn't code for protein and its function can't be determined. However, a team of East Coast researchers recently applied two statistical tests used on various languages to both the coding and "junk" DNA. They found that the noncoding DNA showed the same frequency curve and hierarchy as natural human languages, and it also had fractal-like properties. Their conclusions: "There is something substantial in the noncoding regions." Could it be a language? When I read this, I thought of the Hidden Words in particular: #13 (Arabic)" ...Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting." And # 16."Myriads of mystic tongues find utterance in one speech and myriads of hidden mysteries are revealed in a single melody.." There's a lot we don't know... Best, Sandy Fotos =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 16:26:06+030 To: talisman@indiana.edu From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden) unsubscribe talisman =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 10:23:24 EWT From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Biology and the soul To: talisman@indiana.edu If we are going to argue from Abdu'l-Baha's position, we should probably recognize his assumptions. He is working from the classical Islamic Avicennan/Sadrian system. According to Avicenna, a human rational soul is emanated when there is a suitable material substrate for it. If that is so, then the rational soul is not inherited, so there would be no particular philosophical difficulty about men being descended from apes (or, to be more accurate, being apes); only the human brain is a suitable substrate for the emanation of a rational soul, although other apes come very close. However, I think this whole argument is misconceived and a gross misuse of the writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha. Each was asked endless questions by seekers coming from a large variety of intellectual traditions: Sufism, Islamic law, Islamic philosophy, Protestantism, modern science, etc. Each was a well educated man, deeply versed in the culture of his time and place, and each was committed to what is really a rather simple religious message: that truth is one, that man receives moral and spiritual guidance from God, and that every human intellectual and religious tradition reaches towards God in its own way. They did not purport to teach about evolutionary biology, subatomic physics, the history of philosophy, or whatever. If we try to read them as though that is what they were doing, the results will be silly. They did, however, constantly restate the Baha'i message in the language of each seeker they dealt with. Please remember the story of Baha'u'llah and the dervish from *Dawn-Breakers*. Baha'u'llah was travelling and met a dervish cooking dinner. When asked what he was doing, the dervish explained that he was eating God. Baha'u'llah did not see fit to condemn the "blasphemy." On a related matter, I read Robert's letter from the Research Dept. on Socrates as saying that it was a matter to be explained in terms of the Islamic traditions about Socrates, which is what I have been saying. The whole issue is laid out in great detail in the book by Ilai Alon that they cite. The only novelty of the Baha'i texts is that accounts refering originally to Empedocles have been assimilated with the Socrates tradition. john walbridge =END= From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck) Subject: Re: Re: Evolution To: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 11:06:14 EST Cc: talisman@indiana.edu Henry, the author's name came to me: Bruce Ryan. The last I heard, he was taeching biology at a university in Arizona. Perhaps someone from that neck of the woods has heard of him. Bruce is the only guy I've ever met who could say, "Wanna come to my place and see my lichen collection?" and really mean it! -- Christopher Buck ********************************************************************** * * * * * * * * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est. * * * Carleton University * * * * * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * * * * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * * * * * * * * ********************************************************************** =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 11:05:43 EWT From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: evolution To: talisman@indiana.edu Dear Mark, I cannot for the life of me understand what you mean by not having the tools for studying evolution empirically. There are a multitude of ways to study various aspects of evolution using excellent scientific methodology. What else do you want? Why do Baha'is in the 1990s have to sound like my Christian fundamentalist students who literally will not look at ape and hominid skulls when I take them for tours of the anthropology museum? This stuff is so exciting. I find it difficult to believe that intelligent Baha'is don't relish in this stuff knowing that we are liberated from old religious views that denied people the right to explore the universe without fear of breaking religious law. I guess my comments to Derek will have to wait. My husband, the Beloved Listowner, has summoned me to assist him with some matter. I have not even asked what it is, so dutiful and obedient a wife am I. Submissively, Linda =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 12:37:53 EWT From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Ahang: To: talisman@indiana.edu I think you and your friend are wrong about the Fadil and encyclopedia affairs being fundamentally different. The fact is that though the two episodes happened in very different settings, they have unfolded in very similar ways over similar issues: History was the sensitive issue. The project was initially encouraged at the highest level.. The project was derailed when it was seen to disagree with a popular portrayal of the Faith. The decision to stop the project was made by the head of the faith. The decision to stop the project was made in the name of maintaining intellectual uniformity. The cast of characters is even related, with students and admirers of the original principals involved in the encyclopedia affair. When you combine this with various other incidents and trends, you see a pattern in the Faith--that history is an untouchable area, that intellectual life must be uniform, that ideas must come from the top, that diversity of opinion cannot be handled without crisis. This is a pattern that goes back at least to the Fadil affair and probably farther (Browne/Nuqtatu'l-Kaf, Avarih, or the Reading Room affair). It seems to me that this is a problem that can only be satisfactorily resolved through firm leadership from the House over a long period of time. I see three alternatives: 1) The House makes the decision to encourage independent academic investigation and then sticks to it through the inevitable complaints until a more tolerant attitude becomes well established in the community. 2) The House succeeds in maintaining the current policies of uniformity of thought. The result will be to drive out or marginalize Baha'i intellectuals and condemn the Faith to a status like that of the Mormons: a religion that may be able to grow but is permanently confined to a cult-like intellectual life and is therefore marginal in the larger life of society. 3) Baha'i intelletuals simply cease to obey the House on matters relating the intellectual life and scholarship. This would, I think, do long-term damage, both by dividing the Faith and by making intellectual life a permanent source of conflict within the community. If things continue as they do, we will end up with (2) or (3), probably (2). As they told me when I first became a Baha'i, if you don't face a test, it keeps coming back until you do. What kinds of policies I think should be followed is a subject I will discuss another time. john walbridge =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 09:39:11 -0800 To: SFotos@eworld.com, talisman@indiana.edu From: Safa Sadeghpour Subject: Re: DNA and Darwin on the brain At 03:12 AM 12/17/95 -0800, SFotos@eworld.com wrote: >Dear Talismans, > >Very interesting to read the different ideas on Darwinism and human evolution >from Robert Johnston, Robert Stockman and Ken and the others. I'd like to add >two more thoughts. > >I remember hearing that, during His visit to the US, 'Abdu'l-Baha said that >materialism was contagious, just like TB and cancer. At that time, people >thought, 'Oh poor 'Abdu'l-Baha. He doesn't know that those diseases can't be >passed around.' Of course, the TB bacillus was identified shortly >afterwards and some forms of leukemia have been determined to be viral in >origin. > >Recalling the quote, " Knowledge is twenty and seven letters. All that the >Prophets have revealed are two letters thereof...But when the Qa'im shall >arise, He will cause the remaining twenty five letters to be made manifest."( >KI), it is clear that our current level of knowlege in all areas is very, >very limited. So we should be quite tentative in evaluating the scientific >validity of the Writings in accordance with present theories, etc. > >For an example of our currently quite minimal knowledge of heredity, consider >the following >(Source: _The Sciences_ 35 (3): 8-9. New York Academy of Sciences) > >There is a lot of DNA in cells but only about 3% encodes for the manufacture >of proteins. The other 97% has been called "junk" DNA and has been ignored >since it doesn't code for protein and its function can't be determined. > >However, a team of East Coast researchers recently applied two statistical >tests used on various languages to both the coding and "junk" DNA. They >found that the noncoding DNA showed the same frequency curve and hierarchy as >natural human languages, and it also had fractal-like properties. Their >conclusions: "There is something substantial in the noncoding regions." This is fascinating. Do you happen to have a reference to it by any chance? Thanks. Take care. Safa > >Could it be a language? > >When I read this, I thought of the Hidden Words in particular: #13 (Arabic)" >...Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within >thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting." > >And # 16."Myriads of mystic tongues find utterance in one speech and myriads >of hidden mysteries are revealed in a single melody.." > >There's a lot we don't know... > > >Best, >Sandy Fotos > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- "My goal is simple. It is complete understanding of the universe, why it as it is and why it exists as all." - Stephen Hawking "Truth decays into beauty, while beauty soon becomes merely charm. Charm ends up as strangeness, and even that doesn't last, but up and down are forever." - The Laws of Physics "The shining spark of truth comes forth only from the clash of differing opinions." Abdu'l-Baha Safa Sadeghpour (think@ucla.edu) http://www.smc.edu/homepage/maclab/maclab.web/web/safa.web/safa.htm =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 10:40:49 -0800 From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT ) Subject: The 1995 figures on the Removal and Restoring of Administrative Rights in the USA Baha'i Community ! To: talisman@indiana.edu To: farshid@ix.netcom.com To: BANANI@humnet.ucla.edu To: barney@leith.demon.co.uk Dear Talismanians . Some time ago on this list a debate ran regarding the number of people who have their rights removed . A figure that was quoted placed the percentage of the USA Baha'i community having their rights removed at around 2% . I was curious regarding the current figure as well as the accuracy of the original data . I seem to recall the information quoted in the posting was over 10 years old . I decided to request the current data from the National Office . The figures show that far from a system that seeks out individuals to remove their rights . Rather one that trys to enable believers overcome their problems , of setting in place a personal lifestyle that relates to the Teachings of the Blessed Beauty . The statistics are for 1995 from January 1st : Removal of Rights : 37 Restoring of Rights : 19 Taking the USA Baha'i Community as 135,000 the removal rate is 0 . 0274 % . I did not ask for the number of matters before the Office of Community Administration and Development nor do I believe it would have been correct to ask for such a figure . I would suggest that the removal of the Rights of 37 people is a tragedy for them personally and the local community each one is part of . It does mean such a relatively light caseload that each case can and is treated with all due care and concern by the NSA . That I know has nothing to do with the point over what if the NSA is involved directly in such situations . Those cases are rare and infrequent and are not a regular part of the functioning of the USA Baha'i National Community nor does it seem are the removal of Administrative Rights for any matter . Kindest Regards Derek Cockshut . =END= From: Peter_Tamas@bcon.com (Peter Tamas) To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: infalibility thread request Date: 17 Dec 1995 19:13:43 GMT I've been a wall flower on the list for about four months and would like to take a run at the infallibility question. Rather than begin with my partial collection of posts on the thread, I'd like to have the whole picture before I opened my ignorant mouth. So, if anybody has archived this thread (infalibility of the House of Justice) I'd appreciate a copy. Please don't expect quick turn around..I've done a bunch of this sort of stuff at school and it generally takes me a while to come up with a reasonable set of questions. thanks -Peter Tamas =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 07:14:01 -0500 From: "Ahang Rabbani" To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Miracles and history [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII] One of my good friends who is rendering exemplary service at a particular administrative post and lurks on Talisman just wrote and raised a couple of interesting questions and since he invited me to post it publicly as others may find it amusing (or better yet, offer upgrades), then I'll take some bandwidth. > In a message you posted last week you mentioned a manuscript > by Shahmirzadi, which contains, as you put it, "Wild stories > about miracles by Quddus and Mulla Husayn (and a few others) > that you can't find in any sciencefiction!" > Can you provide the title of this manuscript? Has it seen > publication? Can you e-mail me some examples of the wildest > of the "wild stories"? Finally, could you expound a little > on what you think the source of these stories might be? Did > Shahmirzadi invent them himself, or did he inflate stories > told him by others, or did he faithfully record stories that > had already grown wild and enormous through having been told > and retold within the Babi-Baha'i community? What is raised could actually be the subject of a very interesting paper for the upcoming History conference, (but I think that after letting the cat out of bag on Fadil's episode that organizers are sufficiently annoyed with me to be barred from the event ...) The title of the manuscript is simply "Vaqayi'ih Qal`ih" (the events of the Fort) by Mirza Abu-Talib-i Shahmirzadi. He was a "baqiatu'l-sayf" (remnant of the Fort) and together with a few other survivors of Fort Tabarsi have each independently, penned their recollection of the events of leading up to and during the Fort. None of these been published (though a few short extracts appear in Zuhuru'l-Haqq, vol. 3). The other important narratives are: Lutf Ali Mirza Shirazi, Account of Uprising of Mazandaran, (I own two versions of it; the better one is in the hand of Muhammad-Baqir Tihrani, 111 pages). This work is early since he fell as a martyr during 1852 pogrom. Aqa Siyyid Hasan (Mahjur) Zavarih'i, "Vaqa'i-y Mimiyyih" (Events of Mazandaran), (I have two versions of it: one 100 pages in his own hand, the other 146 pages transcribed by M.A. Malik-Khusravi) Hajji Ja`far Qazvini, "Tarikh", 52 pages, (was included in the first edition of "Tarikh-i Samandar" but removed in subsequent printing of that book -- the editors forgot to remove references to it from the introduction and the Table of Contents ;-} Again this work is early since Qazvini was martyred in 1852. Hajji Nasir Qazvini, "Tarikh Qali'h-i Shaykh Tabarsi", 25 pages. Another early work. And there are some odds and ends such as Zavarih'i's account of Mulla Husayn's martyrdom (in form of exceptionally moving poetry of some 20 pages long), etc. Now, let me give a brief example of the sort of "miracle" story you find in Shahmirzadi's account. He related that on arriving at the Fort, he went straight to the presence of Quddus who received them with much kindness and told them to take his place among the defenders and receive daily instructions from Mulla Husayn. In seeing Mulla Husayn, likewise, he uplifted their his with words of encouragement and then told that nothing happens in the Fort unless its the will of Jinab-i Quddus at its appointed time. Mulla Husayn relates that for example when we were at Sabzihmaydon and it was the time of prayers, I asked one of the believers to call out the Adhan, who was shot immediately by the town's people. The the second believer took up the adhan, who was also shot, and then the third, at which I time I got on my horse and road out and single-handedly dispersed the mob. (This much of the story is in the Dawnbreakers too.) Then Mulla Husayn says that when I returned back to the mosque, after having dispersed the mob, in front of all believers I took off my belt which was holding together my Aba (outer garment), and immediately fell to the ground hundreds of bullets fired upon my by town's people. All these bullets had penetrated my Aba but had failed to go through my shirt to harm me and were thus collected around my belt. Shahmirzadi goes on to report that many of time similar things happened to himself while in the Fort -- as if God wanted him to survive to tell of the events. Of course, the beloved Guardian was very careful not to bring any of these stories in the Dawnbreakers (if in fact Nabil had captured them, which I understand that he had many "miracle" stories indeed) as it would only undermine the integrity of the events. And of course the beloved Guardian is correct (as if he needs my approval!) and we must follow in his footsteps. But again, it should be borne in mind, that Shoghi Effendi also recognized that some of these "miracle" events were by then matters of public records and non-Baha'i writers, such as Sipihr or Hedayat, etc., were writing about them: such as the miracles associated with the martyrdom of the Bab, or His going to bath episode in Urumi'ih, etc. These he had to include in the Dawnbreakers and no body could attack him since he could point to Ruzatu'l-Safa and say, "see, Muslims and enemies are saying it too." Now, you ask what the sources of these stories might be and if they were inflated, etc. I believe that Shahmirzadi and all the other reporters where exceptionally sincere and these things *actually happened*. Shahmirzadi had no intention of leaving behind a *history*. He only wrote his comments as a source of edification for his own descendants -- a fact mentioned in the text along with his instructions that the manuscript not leave the family (and how I ended up with it is yet a different story). He wasn't trying to influence Babi history, etc. He lived until 1892 and served the *Baha'i* Faith and Baha'u'llah. There was no reason for him to create stories about earlier days as his concern shifted to his new Faith. Besides, similar stories are told by other survivors. Incidentally, MacEoin maintains that the source of Nabil's story for Fort Tabarsi is Shahmirzadi. I have proved this theory wrong and have shown that the source is another narrative. Actually this is among a more brilliant contributions on my part. > While I have your attention, let me ask you a question about > Nabil's Narrative: Is the passage known as "the Bab's > address to the Letters of the Living," Baha'i scripture, > according to your understanding? Is there any likelihood > that this address was actually invented, in whole or in part, > by Nabil? Or by Shoghi Effendi? The Dawnbreakers (remember I use this term to distinguish it from Nabil's Narrative with I consider a term for the *original* manuscript of Nabil) is a book of history and not scripture in my view. The Baha'is who elevate it to the level of Scripture will do the beloved Guardian a great disservice. Hence in my view (however wrong others may consider it to be), the Bab's address to the Letters of the Living is simply an inspiration piece -- which *somewhat* resembles what the Bab may have said on that evening. It clearly and categorically NOT an invented of Shoghi Effendi. It was not even invented by Nabil (though I have never seen Nabil's text to be sure, but I trust Shoghi Effendi when he says its there). So, where did it come from? And that question can't in all probability ever be answered. But examining Nabil's actual text will without doubt give us much better insights. His narrative is rich with dialogue. Its very important to see his *original* manuscript to see if he identifies the source(s) of his dialogues or events. Also, its important to examine the original to see the style of these dialogues. Let me give an example to clarify. There are two important "farewell" addresses by the Bab: one given to all the Letters and the second to Quddus in Bushihr (on their supposedly last meeting -- which this "last meeting" is bogus but that's a different story). If Nabil does not in fact identify his source for these two "farewell" talks in original text, then I submit examination of the original (and not the Guardian's translation) will be of a great help. Here is my theory: Quddus probably told no one except Mulla Sadiq Muqqadas-i Khurasani of what the Bab said to him, so if the style of the two talks are indeed similar then it seems likely the source for the Bab's farewell address to the Letters is Mulla Sadiq. We won't know for sure, but we'll be on more solid ground. There are many, many questions which can only be answered by examining the original of Nabil's text and where the translation has obscured the details. Anyway, these are my 2 cents worth. Perhaps others can add to them. much love, ahang. =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 14:50:47 EWT From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Nabil and "authentic" speeches To: talisman@indiana.edu Let us remember when evaluating these things that premodern historians (and some modern popular historians) are in the habit of doing their analysis by having the characters say what they *ought* to have said at the time had they not been mere mortals. The grand master of this technique was Thucydides; the speeches in his history of the Peloponesian War are among the world's masterpieces of political and historical analysis. It is possible that Nabil had a written source for the Bab's farewell speech, but I suspect that it represents an expansion of what Nabil heard second or third hand from participants in the light of what Nabil thought was the significance of the occasion. Its value therefore depends on what you think of Nabil's acumen as a Babi historian. john walbridge =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 12:42:58 -0700 To: talisman@indiana.edu From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller) Subject: Re: Review and translation Dear John, you wrote in part: >> A field like Baha'i studies is comparable to fields like the classics, >>Egyptology, or Islamic studies. >>john walbridge Certainly the term "Baha'i studies" is a much larger umbrella than the study of history, with all of its fascinating and nitty-gritty research, verification of texts, translations, and so on. Under the term "Baha'i studies," recognizing that there is an overall Association for Baha'i Studies, how many spheres or fields of study and investigation have been identified, or have simply developed into their own niches or groups of Baha'i scholars pursuing their respective research? And what organizations or vehicles for cross-communication now exist that we might be informed of, from within or without the Association for Baha'i Studies? ABS doesn't have its own mailing list or other type of online clearing house as far as I know. I haven't seen an ABS Homepage on the WWW yet. Is there a group of scholars , for example, who are in constant touch around the field of Health/Medicine/Nutrition, for example? Is there any other online list reflecting more of that emphasis? I have recently subscribed to the Baha'i-Intuition mailing list; I certainly wouldn't want to dismiss that emphasis as outside the circle of "Baha'i studies." And, of course, there are many private email conversations occurring along more personal lines of interest. In that sense Talisman may be similar to an iceberg, representing the "conscious" tip - but only the tip of what is waiting to emerge or brought to consciousness. Talisman is a wonderful clearing house. I was thrilled to see a posting from Luanne, for example, which dealt more with the "experiential" aspects of integrating the "esoteric" and the "exoteric." Some Talismanians are more interested in the abstract, theoretical mapping type of discussion in referencing the "esoteric-exoteric" spiritual and/or scientific landscape. Others desire an experiential, metaphorical (which does not imply a lack of reality) sharing. Still others desire to discuss methodological tools, primary and secondary sources. There is room for everyone. Confusion occurs when metaphors are mixed, or when one writer makes unwarranted assumptions about what another poster states, rather that inquiring or asking for further delineation of one's thought. It often feels like a demon of slippery thinking lurks here. Some postings sound so absolutist. This is so strange, especially in a time when the boundaries of thought and the parameters of various fields are shifting, bumping into one another, and holographically shaping into a whole new -as yet undefineable and ungraspable- unified field of understanding. That does not imply that we don't observe, record, hypothesize, measure, conclude, etc., but it does suggest that we should take the "long view," as Sandy Fotos and others have intimated or stated outright . It does mean, it seems to me, that one must ponder and search for the "secret doors" where seemingly opposing or different fields of study truly do access or hook up with one another. The true poet must of necessity become also a scientist, and the scientist must also animate and awaken materialistic thinking and become thereby a metaphorical, mytho-poet. Talisman, afterall, is a metaphor suggestive of magical qualities. There is either oneness or there isn't. Reality does not admit of multiplicity, the Writings state. If any one of us limits ourself to thinking that "Baha'i studies" relates to only one of many equally important fields of endeavor - spiritual and material - then it would be my fear that the insights and joys deriving from a point of view of oneness may well escape us. I do not think any one of us escapes the responsibility of rethinking - and reflecting upon - what she/he has written before it is sent. As I rethought this I was reminded to thank you, John, for letting your posting help me with mine. I responded to your posting with mostly an observation-turned-question, and I have expanded it into more of"observations-turned-lecture." Thank you for starting and working so hard to operate and manage Talisman. Regards, Henry Henry W. Miller Martinez, California,U.S.A. hwmiller@ccnet.com hwmiller@eworld.com 510-372-0709 =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 14:17:01 -0500 From: "Ahang Rabbani" To: "JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.e" <"jwalbrid@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu"@esds01. mrgate.bmoa.umc.dupont.com>, talisman@indiana.edu Subject: RE: Nabil and "authentic" speeches [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII] What John says is very reasonable. One could even take a step further and argue that this farewell speech is the Babi version of the Biblical "Last Supper" -- after all, the Babis were obsessed with the question of fulfillment of Biblical/Islamic prophecies and strongly believed that they were re-enacting previous historical events. And of course the speech conveniently quotes the words of Jesus addressed to His disciples at the Last Supper -- presumably for those too dense to figure the symbolism. But before we quickly dismiss it a yet another Babi myth or invention of Nabil, let's keep in mind that several Letters of the Living survived 1852 events and may have then left behind memoirs. I've never seen reference to any, but am interested to hear if others have. At any rate, its a strange thing that a speech as inspirational and historically important as this, is not referred to by anyone else except Nabil. The Bab never refers to it. No other fellow Letter wrote to Tahirih about it (that we know of). She makes no mention of it in her writings. No evidence that Siyyid Javad Karbali had heard from Muall Ali-y Bastami who should have received a report of it from Shiraz. And above all, no similiar sentiments in the Bab's Tablet to Mulla Ali Bastami sent to Iraq! Curious!!? ahang. =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 15:53:42 EWT From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: "Baha'i Studies" To: talisman@indiana.edu Henry Miller is quite right; my discussion refered to a particular kind of Baha'i studies: that which involves the scientific study of primary sources. I don't want to dismiss such areas as Baha'i studies of agriculture, addiction, etc. (to which Rob Stockman once gave the splendid name of "applied Bahaism"), but at this stage in Baha'i history they seem to raise fewer questions than that branch of study that asks what the Faith is and where it came from and attempts to do so scientifically rather than theologically. john walbridge =END= From: "Mark A. Foster" Subject: evolution To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:14:36 -0600 (CST) Linda Walbridge wrote to talisman@indiana.edu: L>Dear Mark, I cannot for the life of me understand what you mean by not L>having the tools for studying evolution empirically. There are a L>multitude of ways to study various aspects of evolution using L>excellent scientific methodology. What else do you want? Why do L>Baha'is in the 1990s have to sound like my Christian fundamentalist L>students who literally will not look at ape and hominid skulls when I L>take them for tours of the anthropology museum? This stuff is so L>exciting. Hi, Linda - Thanks for your note. I used to teach a 400-level (senior) course entitled "Human Evolution and Prehistory" at the southwest campus of the University of Virginia - Clinch Valley College - back when I chaired the Department of Social and Behavioral Sciences there. Certainly, I am familiar with the methodologies which have been used to empirically study hominid/primate evolution. I don't think that I ever said that we do not have the tools for studying evolution empirically. What I wrote was: It [the divine ordering of creation] teaches us about the purposefulness of evolution - a dimension of science which is unattainable using the normal tools of empirical research. By purpose, I meant God's purpose for existence (loving and knowing God, developing virtues, etc.), which we know through studying the divine teachings. Material science cannot teach us about the purposeful power (spirit) of the soul. It can only observe outward appearances. OTOH, the divine metaphysics brought by the Prophets fills that gap in our knowledge. Warm greetings to you, Mark (Foster) ___ * UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates His creative diversity. =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:25:03 +1300 (NZDT) To: SFotos@eworld.com, talisman@indiana.edu From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) Subject: Re: DNA and Darwin on the brain Dear Sandy, Great! Loved it. Metaphysically, humans were seen as metaphysical entities; modernly, humans were seen as biological entities; postmodernly, human beings are seen as essentially...communicators. Religiously: all three. If you are able, could you please sent to me your recent letter on fractals. Robert.... =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 16:23:49 EWT From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Baha'i studies To: talisman@indiana.edu Heaven forbid that I should publicly disagree with my husband, but I really don't understand the concept of "Baha'i agriculture" or "Baha'i nutrition." I can understand studying the Faith theologically, historically, and socially (or anthropolgically), but beyond that, I haven't a clue as to what anyone means. Linda =END= From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT" To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:21:49 EST Subject: infallability (2pgs.) Dear Friends, First, I would like to acknowledge that my response to the above is assisted by a dear unknown scholar friend Walter Wootten age 65 and a Baha'i since age of 18 and taught by Hand of the Cause Agnes Alexander in Honolulu while a young Marine Corps person at the time, who has the responsibility of my staying in the Faith through hard times. He states that the statements here are advisory and not decretal, as he is labile, (subject to error). "Infallability issue is dealt with in the Kitab'i Iqan p. 181-182. It is stated that there are seven degrees within the realm of the infallable Divine Unity; previous to this precious Book, no one had it altogether. The seven degrees within the Divine Unity stipulated are as follows (see reference p.181 Kitab'i Iqan) 1) Divinity; Baha'u'llah?? 2) Lordship; Bab?? (see page 86 Prayers and Meditations by Bahau'llah) 3) Prophethood; (Moses? Jesus? Muhammad? Buddha? Krishna? etc. these are Prophets endowed with Constancy; Lawgivers, Legislator Prophets ) 4) Messengership; e.g. The lesser Prophets of the House of Israel? examples; Isaah? Daniel, Jeremiah etc. 5)Guardianship; (Shoghi Effendi?) 6)Apostleship; (The Twelve Imams of the Islamic Dispensation?) and possibly John the Writer of the Revelation of St. John?? Not sure about John. 7) Servitude; Question: Mr. Wootten is unable to make any reference or give examples on this rank and is asking for further assistance of those who may know. Shoghi Effendi in Mrs. May Maxwell's Haifa Pilgrim Notes, 1937 pointed out that threre are two types of infallibility; 1) Innate 2) Derived It is up to the reader or inquirer to discover or ascertain which of the seven degrees are innate or derived. I (Walter)presume all are innate infallability;THUS THE GUARDIAN IS INFALLABLE IN EVERTHING! To admit otherwise would open Pendoras Box for every snake and mouse and spider to crawl out challenging the infallability of the Guardian of the Cause of God. Some said that the Guardian is not an Authority on science. Then the question; who is Authority on science which has never been defined. It has been only recently that we have used the coined term "scientist" and all scientists disagree among themselves about the foundation of the empiricism. So, how could anyone say that the Guardian is not an Authority on science? Rumi in his Mathnawi over 700 years ago stated that all of these sciences in the Light of Divine Revelation are as dainty nosegay. Touching upon derived infallability, these offices subsist by virtue of the corollaries derivative of their function, pursuing the Divine Law. Thus, for example if a Prophet of God establishes an Institution it is a Divine Institution. Therefore, it enjoys derived infallability. For example, in Kitab'i Aqdas in 1873 Baha'u'llah divinely creates the Universal House of Justice to legislate in areas of human endeavour, not specifically stipulated in the Aqdas. This is derived infallability. So far as we are concerned must be obeyed, unquestioningly. Another example is the Institution of the Hands of the Cause of God, during the period between 1957-63 where there was no Guardianship the Institution as a Body enjoyed derived infallability pursuing their divinely stipulated duties in the Aqdas. Therefore they had the derived infallability to officially convoce the election of the Universal House of Justice in 1963. With respect to the challenging of Authority of Infallibility by the believers, those who presume to speak in God's Name who have not been officially designated by the Manifestation of God, we are at liberty to challenge. Lying imposters are the chief creators of fear in the hearts of men. Those who presume to be authorities in that wonderful NO MAN'S LAND at the metaphysical realm between the Prophet of God and his creatures and who do not hold credentials from the Manifestation of God may be challenged and ignored. This applies to the so called empirical fields of theology, metaphysical abstraction, natural magic-all three (LEARNINGS) of which have been discredited in Baha'u'llah's Kitab'i Iqan. We already have in society two ranks of military men: 1) officers 2) enlisted men. An officer is to all intents and purposes, so far as an enlisted men is concerned unchallengeable and within the degree of officership we have generals,colonels, majors, liutenants and ensigns etc., even as we have seven degrees within the realm of Divine Unity all are infallable. We next get to the nitty grityy and the cutting edge of the discussion as to which are fields in empiricism and which not? The human mind is just as much a facet of the unseen realm as the rest of the unseen realm. It therefore is within the province of the Prophet of God or the Manifestations of God, or possibly within those Institutions enjoying derived infallability to pronounce upon the subject of the legitimacy of empirical fields residing within the unseen realm. Even as we have discovered the Periodic Table in chemistry to which we are continually and periodically adding elements, even so before an empirical field in metaphysical realm is accorded official recognition and proof of existence, a PERIODIC TABLE OF THE ELEMENTS OF HUMAN MIND is necessary, before the field can be officially established and before we can discuss intelligently such disciplines as psychology which has its premises based on empirical studies on animal behaviors, theology, philosophy, economic theory, sociology- in short the entire gammut of social sciences. Abdu'lBaha as recorded in Star of the West said that a thing cannot know itself (paraphrased?). It stands to simple reason that the encompassor can understand the encompassed; the surrounder can fathom the surrounded, but not vice versa. Therefore, in order to talk about the human mind, we have to stand on the ground of not-mind. Can you imagine what this should do to the current university curricula, especially in social and behavioral and philosophical studies and all efforts of metaphysical abstraction, and the sciences of prediction beyond natural law? greetings, Walter R. Wootten P.S.: Mr. Wootten is only a guest who is leaving today and enjoys no access to e-mail. I only was his typist in this effort. However, I will forward any reply by snail mail to him. *** *** * * * =END= From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT" To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:51:00 EST Subject: Servitude Addendum to previous posting regarding 7 degrees of infallability 7) Servitude; perhaps relevant to this rank is Baha'u'llah's perplexing verse in His Epistle to The Son of The Wolf: "Servitude is a substance the essence of which is divinity" Thus far we consciously know only of the two facets of Divinity: 1) Matter; the people who were and are the denizens of matter are empiricists and kings and civil rulers. 2) Spirit; the denizens of spirit have been ecclesiastics and mystics. For 6 thousands years these two campers have been fighting each other. The question which I entertain as a node of difficulty is: IS THE RANK OF SERVITUDE PROPOUNDED BY BAHA'ULLAH IN THE AFORESAID PASSAGES A THIRD FACET OF DIVINITY???? WOW!!!!!! If so, is this rank of Servitude will adequate for the first time in history the competing vectors of Matter and Spirit; thus, reorienting the human mind in a completely different direction than the denizens of the Spirit of Matter who are at each others' throats??? The institution of Servitude is the only way to unite these two warring elements of bidders for royal or ecclesiastical transcendancy. greetings, Walter Wootten *** *** * * * =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:01:35 -0600 (CST) From: Saman Ahmadi To: talisman Subject: Another suggestion regarding scholarship Dear Everyone, As I understand it the compeletion date for the Centre of the Study of the Sacred Text is only a few short years away - I am guessing about 1 1/2 since from the pictures the skeleton is almost finished. What if we ask the Universal House of Justice about their plans for the work at the Centre for the, say, next 10 years after its completion: how does the House prioritize the massive basic scholarly work that remains. John mentioned that he would share his suggestions regarding scholarship - may be the consulation on the matter can generate recommendations to the House regarding possible projects for the Centre. BTW, Ahang's posts about reported miracles at Shaykh Tabarsi have a "Raiders of the Lost Ark" ring to them! I hope he, and others, will share more of what they know. take care, sAmAn =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 13:54:53 -0800 From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT ) Subject: Fwd: Marion Hofman's funeral To: talisman@indiana.edu ---- Begin Forwarded Message Return-Path: Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net by ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id NAA11460; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:32:20 -0800 Received: from post.demon.co.uk by relay-4.mail.demon.net id sg.ae06152; 12 Dec 95 21:27 GMT Received: from leith.demon.co.uk by relay-3.mail.demon.net id sg.aa04104; 12 Dec 95 21:26 GMT X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 21:29:17 +0000 To: bahai-exchange-uk@bcca.org From: Barney Leith Subject: Marion Hofman's funeral Cc: DEREK COCKSHUT X-SMTP-Posting-Host: leith.demon.co.uk [Tue, 12 Dec 95 21:26:38 GMT] X-SMTP-Posting-Host: post.demon.co.uk [Tue, 12 Dec 95 21:27:12 GMT] Status: RO 12 December, 1995 Over a hundred people attended Marion Hofman's funeral in Oxford today. The service was simple, but moving. Marion's granddaughters (Mark and Deborah's children), Martha and Mary, together with May Hofman, played the second movement of J.S. Bach's Concerto in D minor for two violins. That music was so apt, dissolving us in tears of recollection, bringing us back to the centre ground of commemoration. A wonderful beginning. The message from the Universal House of Justice was read (by the writer of this message). Hasan Sabri delivered the eulogy, personal recollections of the help Marion gave him as a young man, of her generosity, her faithfulness to those she loved, her utter dedication to the Cause and faithfulness to the Covenant. Prayers and extracts from the Writings were read by Manoocher Samii, Paddy O'Mara, Erica Leith, and May Hofman. Mrs Taeedi chanted beautifully a prayer of `Abdu'l-Baha. And Mark Hofman read "Blest pair of sirens" and another short poem, both by John Milton. At the graveside, David Hofman recited the Obligatory Prayer for the Dead with a strong voice and looking up to heaven as he read. Juliet and Novin Doostdar hosted a reception after the funeral, where David Hofman read out the wonderful message from Ruhiyyih Khanum and spoke briefly of the other messages he had received from around the world. Part of Khanum's message: SADDENED NEWS PASSING MY DEAR OLD FRIEND MARION, DEVOTED, OUTSTANDING VERY ACTIVE BELIEVER IN NORTH AMERICA DURING MY GIRLHOOD AND LATER IN HER YEARS IN GREAT BRITAIN AND EUROPE. HISTORY HER MANY DEVOTED SERVICES WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN BY THOSE WHO LOVED AND ADMIRED HER. MY ARDENT HOPE IS THAT HER CHILDREN WILL BEFITTINGLY APPRECIATE HER WORTH AND FOLLOW IN HER FOOTSTEPS IN SERVING THE CAUSE OF GOD AND THROUGH IT THEIR CONTEMPORARY GENERATION IN SUCH A WAY AS TO GLADDEN HER SPIRIT AND BRING JOY TO HER SOUL IN THE REALMS BEYOND TO WHICH SHE IS NO DOUBT WELCOMED BY MANY WHO LOVED HER IN THIS LIFE, INCLUDING THE SPIRIT OF MY OWN DEAR MOTHER. It was a wonderful service, simple, deeply moving, entirely appropriate. I think many of us felt Marion's spirit close by. Barney ========================================================= * Barney Leith Leith Editorial Services * Writing * Editing * Typography * Layout * Print Production Management * 24 Gardiner Close, Abingdon, Oxon OX14 3YA, UK * e-mail: barney@leith.demon.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------- The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing... Baha'u'llah ========================================================= =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:54:50 +1300 (NZDT) To: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) Subject: Re: Biology and the soul ffolks, I could not but read John's letter with dismay and a profound sense of loss. Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha reduced to being well-read gentlemen, a narrow and prejudiced reading of the Research Dept material on Socrates, the Baha'i view that the human soul comes into existence at conception over-ridden... I scan the horizon for support, but feel hopelessly outnumbered. If John's view represents the prevailing viewpoint among American Baha'i intellectuals, then I must surely retreat from the field, and leave the proponents of what I consider to be a perverse position to themselves... A long time must pass before the meaning of the harmony of science and religion will be genuinely grasped, I feel. Intuitively, I feel that greatest inroads will be made only after entry by troops. Then, huge numbers from the among the unlettered will rapidly acquire learning while retaining a simple and vital faith. Brahmanic American Baha'i intellectuals by contrast will find themselves in a condition of severe loss, as their materialistic and dessicated theories are trampled under by the sheer weight of an advancing humanity... Thank God Mark Foster is on Talisman! Robert. =END= From: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Subject: Man, Apes, and "Junk" DNA... To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:03:29 -0600 (CST) Dear friends, Some quick thoughts on posts by Mark (re: Evolution) and Sandy (re: Junk DNA). The point is often made of the extreme genetic similarity between man and chimpanzees (let's say on the order of 98% identity at the DNA sequence level). Well, you know, you can do a lot with that 2%! It is estimated that we have about 100,000+ genes so that could be as many as 2,000 genes, assuming none of the dissimilarity was in "junk" DNA regions, which would probably be a naive assumption. Let's say, then, that 90% of the 2% difference was junk DNA; that still leaves 200 genes to play with. You can do an awful lot with 200 genes not only in terms of the function of the genes themselves but how their expression is spatially and temporally regulated. This is particularly relevant with developmental transcription factors whose function is to turn on whole sets of other genes (it's really like a wondrous symphony when you start to think about it). These genes can regulate such critical parameters in development as the number of times brain cells undergo cell division during development which will determine the brain size of a particular species.. ..Finally, the brains of chimpanzees and apes are PHYSICALLY different from humans in very important ways, undoubtedly as a consequence of these seemingly small genetic differences, which however have enormous developmental consequences. Sandy mentioned some interesting information about so called "Junk" DNA and there is little doubt in my mind that more and more will be uncovered about the function of this paradoxical DNA "stuffing"! A really intriguing point, however, is that without this junk "DNA" which is highly polymorphic (sequence variation) in mammals, there probably would have been no efficient method to start finding the many genes responsible for genetically based diseases such as cystic fibrosis, huntington's, muscular dystrophy, amyelotrophic lateral schlerosis (Lou Gehrig's disease) etc...Indeed the ability to map and sequence the human genome (admittedly a potentially double-edged sword) has depended on this junk DNA. Briefly, the reason the junk DNA is important is that because it does not code for any particular function (at least no obvious function) it can accumulate mutations without affecting its carrier and can therefore be passed on indefinitely. Oh, Oh, I think I just bit off more than I want to chew here, but for those interested the basic principle behind genetic mapping is linkage analysis. (there was an excellent article about this in one of the summer or early fall Scientific American-Medicine issues). So THANK GOD for "junk" DNA!!! Warmest Regards to All! Ken =END= From: Stephen Bedingfield Subject: Solar / Lunar Observances of Baha'i Holy Days To: talisman@indiana.edu (Talisman) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:03:44 MST Dear Friends, What follows is a partially completed schedule of Baha'i Observances according to their solar or lunar basis for observing them within the Baha'i (Badi) calendar. I seek your assistance in completing this schedule if that is possible at this time. Please post back the unknown bases marked with an "?", as well as correcting any errors or omissions. Perhaps the following comments will be useful: - References for Textual Authority are to the Kitab-i-Aqdas, and Question and Answers. - Under "East" and "BWC" columns I am looking for first-hand observations, not hearsay. Please quote chapter and verse for Textual Authorities. Also, with respect to the observances of the Twin Holy Birthdays even though it is current practice to commemorate these on a solar basis in the West, and even though it remains for the House to determine the solar or lunar basis for commemorating these observances, the burning question is: is there any restriction on we in the West celebrating these now on a lunar basis? TERRY, I know this question burns in your heart too. _______________ Schedule of Current Baha'i Practices and Textual Authorities for Determining Solar or Lunar Basis for Baha'i Observances Basis for Observation(1) --------------------- Textual Baha'i Observances West East BWC Authority(2) ________________________________________________________________________ Naw-Ruz Solar Solar Solar Solar: Q35 Ridvan Festival(3) Solar(4) Solar Solar Solar: Q1 Declaration of the Bab Solar(4) ? ? Lunar: Q36 Ascension of Baha'u'llah Solar(4) ? ? ? Martyrdom of the Bab Solar(4) ? ? ? Birth of the Bab Solar Lunar Lunar Lunar: K110, Q36 Birth of Baha'u'llah Solar Lunar Lunar Lunar: K110, Q36 Day of the Covenant Solar ? ? ? Ascension of Abdu'l-Baha Solar(4) ? ? ? Ayyam-i-Ha Solar Solar Solar Solar: K16 The Baha'i Fast Solar Solar Solar Solar: K16 ____________________ (1) "Given that the Baha'i calendar ... is a solar calendar, it remains for the Universal House of Justice to determine whether the Twin Holy Birthdays are to be celebrated on a solar or lunar basis"(note 138 of the Kitab-i-Aqdas). Current practices given are for the Eastern, Western and Baha'i World Centre communities (2) References given are for determining the days for observances only. For example, Naw-Ruz is commanded in K16, but Q35 fixes the day astronomically. (3) First, Ninth and Twelfth are Holy Days (4) Shoghi Effendi, quoted in "Dawn of a New Day", p.68, outlines the proper time to celebrate these Holy Days. However, the solar or lunar determination of the dates are subject to legislation by the Universal House of Justice. Loving regards, stephen -- Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations" email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah =END= To: Talisman Subject: Greetings Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 17:37:12 -0500 From: "William P. Collins" -- [ From: William P. Collins * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- It has been several months since I was last subscribed to Talisman (I needed the respite), so it is appropriate that I introduce myself again to those who subscribe to the list. In fairness to the real complexities of the human reality, however, I preface this introduction with my favorite words from the Broadway musical "A Chorus Line": "What am I to say? Am I my resume. which is a picture of a person I don't know?" So I give you a resume, but it is not me. People usually call me Bill. My ancestors, may God's peace be upon them, appear to be the typical British and northern European stock that took over the native territories and turned them into New England. My great- grandfather John Collins came from Northamptonshire to the U.S. in the 1870s . He married Mary L. Denison, descendant of stern New England congregationalist stock that produced a number of Harvard-graduated clergy: the Denisons, Miners, Chesebroughs, Crandalls, Palmers, Tracys, Clarkes, Ingrahams, and so forth. Some of those ancestors (Howlands and Tilleys) were on the Mayflower, though one of them, thank goodness, was an indentured servant. They were met by my wife's Wampanoag ancestors, who got them through that legendary winter that we associate with Thanksgiving. My mother's family are mostly descendants of Palatine immigrants who were brought to New York state by Governor Hunter to make naval stores on the Hudson. The naval stores project never worked, but the Palatines were terribly successful - the largest single immigration during the colonial period. One of my ancestors, Johannes Leyer/Layer, is the progenitor of the Lawyer family. Everyone you know with that last name is descended from him. I was born in 1950 and grew up in the small hamlet of Brisben, about 20 miles north of Binghamton. I was an introspective kid, read a lot of history and Shakespeare, and never was without a sense that God was around. I studied all the religions during my teenage years, and heard about the Baha'i Faith from a television program in 1968 just after I graduated from high school (my valedictory address was about unity). I became a Baha'i that fall at Middlebury College, after independently reading the Kitab-i- Iqan, Gleanings, Prayers & Meditations, Baha'i World Faith, Some Answered Questions, and The Advent of Divine Justice. The first Baha'is I met were those who came to enroll me. At Middlebury I majored in French and Russian, with minors in Spanish and Geology (B.A. 1972). I got a Masters in Library Science from Syracuse University in 1973, and worked at Middlebury College for three years. In 1976-77 I worked at the State Historical Society of Wisconsin. From 1977- 1990 I was Librarian of the Baha'i World Centre. And now I work at the Library of Congress. I have written a few articles, mostly on the Faith and some about librarianship, and compiled a bibliography. I just completed my Master of Social Science degree at Syracuse University by independent study, with a thesis on "The Millerites and Time Prophecy: Their Function as Millennial Themes in the American Baha'i Community." I have two children, both teenagers. My wife Rachel is an artist and scientific illustrator who happens to have been trained as a librarian and archivist. I like a cappella music. Five guys at the World Centre were part of a doo- wop group called The Carmels. I am also thrilled by the current spate of movies based on Jane Austen's novels. If you haven't seen "Persuasion" and "Sense and Sensibility", what are you doing with your time? There's much more, but it would probably bore you. I do not post much; I read and listen and bide my time. Bill Collins wcol@loc.gov -- William Collins 6819 Stoneybrooke Lane, Alexandria, VA 22306, USA wcol@loc.gov (w) or 4705541@mcimail.com (h) =END= From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 18:09:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: EVOLUTION To: talisman@indiana.edu Dear Linda, As a former geologist with six years of training as a paleontologist, I second your remarks. The universe as seen through the lens of the evolutionary process is truly grand and exciting. I for one am glad to be free from the shackles of the fundamentalist approach to science. I am reminded of a wonderful account that occurred just after the publication of Darwin's _Origin of Species_. As we all know, many of the more conservative theologians at that time objected to Darwin's view because they thought it somehow lessened the grandeur and power of God. Other more thoughtful theologians argued that the theory of evolution made God seem much more powerful and grand because, as they said: Before Darwin we were taught that God in "his" greatness made the universe in six days, but now we know that God is greater, for "he" created the universe to create itself! I've always thought the Baha'i discussion of evolution could benefit from the insights found in process philosophy and theology, especially the work of Henri Bergson, Alfred North Whitehead and Charles Hartsworne. Bergson's _Creative Evolution_ is especially good, IMO, in dealing with Abdul-Baha's comments about evolution. Anyone care to respond? I would need to reread my Bergson to delve into this further, but I have promised myself to do this for a long time. LW>Dear Mark, I cannot for the life of me understand what you mean by not LW>the tools for studying evolution empirically. There are a multitude of LW>study various aspects of evolution using excellent scientific methodolo LW>What else do you want? Why do Baha'is in the 1990s have to sound like LW>Christian fundamentalist students who literally will not look at ape an LW>hominid skulls when I take them for tours of the anthropology museum? LW>stuff is so exciting. I find it difficult to believe that intelligent LW>don't relish in this stuff knowing that we are liberated from old relig LW>views that denied people the right to explore the universe without fear LW>breaking religious law. Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ. --- * WR 1.32 # 669 * Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers. Vol =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 18:05:12 From: "Stockman, Robert" To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston), talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re[2]: Darwin on the Brain... I'm not sure anyone can PROVE `Abdu'l-Baha wrong in a matter such as evolution, but there are varying levels of probability to consider. IF `Abdu'l-Baha's statements about evolution are meant to STATE that humans never had any genetic interaction with the rest of life on the Earth--that humanity is a completely independent tree of life on the Earth--then there are massive scientific problems. As I said, one can hold such a position; but if one does, one cannot condemn Christian Fundamentalists for maintaining that the fossils in the rocks were created by Satan to fool us. The issue is that the harmony of science and religion--one principle stated by `Abdu'l-Baha--would contradict your understanding of the principle of infallibility (and possibly the Baha'i understanding of infallibility; the exact nature of this principle is not clear either). But whether this conflict really exists is not yet clear. First of all, the statements by `Abdu'l-Baha about evolution are either from oral talks--nonscripture--or from unreliable translations. Possibly the entire issue of interpreting `Abdu'l-Baha will be resolved by better translations. Or, possibly, the issue will become more complex. Now, one other matter: `Abdu'l-Baha and science. Considering that Shoghi Effendi's secretary has said Shoghi Effendi was not infallible in matters of science and economics, and we have a letter of the House of Justice noting that `Abdu'l-Baha reported to a group of friends information about martyrdoms in Yazd that had been reported to Him but was not correct, we have, I think, reason to wonder whether `Abdu'l-Baha sould be considered infallible in science. (These documents have been posted on Talisman several times.) But there will have to be a lot more work done before we can settle this matter. Even if `Abdu'l-Baha is not infallible in matters of science, I am not sure whether that would "marginalize... [Him] to the outskirts of science." That depends on what we mean by "marginalize" and "outskirts." -- Rob Stockman ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain... Author: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) at INTERNET Date: 12/16/95 7:02 PM Robert Stockman wrote: It is better to > remember (1) `Abdu'l-Baha was making theological statements, not > scientific ones, and possibly not even philosophical ones; This appears to marginalise the station of 'Abdu'l-Baha to the outskirts of science. Even the fool Heidegger knew that modern science was a mere branch of metaphysics. Robert, if you can prove 'Abdu'l-Baha wrong, then I'll listen. If you can't then I humbly suggest you give Him the benefit of the doubt...[at least] Robert (barking mad on a long black Sunday afternoon) Johnston =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:21:54 +1200 To: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com, talisman@indiana.edu From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) Subject: Re: EVOLUTION ffolks, Dann, Robert S and Linda (et al) express their positions on evolution in extreme ways. That is: if yer not with Darwin yer a fundamentalist and think the world was made in seven days. The articulation of this polarity is a sure indication of the weakness of BOTH positions. Any intellectual position that is not moderate is untrue. Robert. =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 18:11:35 -0800 To: talisman@indiana.edu From: Safa Sadeghpour Subject: Re: EVOLUTION At 02:21 PM 12/18/95 +1200, Robert Johnston wrote: >ffolks, > Dann, Robert S and Linda (et al) express their positions on >evolution in extreme ways. That is: if yer not with Darwin yer a >fundamentalist and think the world was made in seven days. The >articulation of this polarity is a sure indication of the weakness of BOTH >positions. Any intellectual position that is not moderate is untrue. Dear Robert, It might be better to present specific arguments against a specific positions instead of proclaiming general conditions of truth. It is not true that anything that is not moderate is necessarily not true. A perfect example might be that of God's existence: Is God's existence true, or does He half-exist? Existence or non-existence. . . the two extremes are the only options. Take care. Safa > >Robert. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- "My goal is simple. It is complete understanding of the universe, why it as it is and why it exists as all." - Stephen Hawking "Truth decays into beauty, while beauty soon becomes merely charm. Charm ends up as strangeness, and even that doesn't last, but up and down are forever." - The Laws of Physics "The shining spark of truth comes forth only from the clash of differing opinions." Abdu'l-Baha Safa Sadeghpour (think@ucla.edu) http://www.smc.edu/homepage/maclab/maclab.web/web/safa.web/safa.htm =END= From: PayamA@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 21:54:42 -0500 To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: The 1995 figures on the Removal and Restoring of Rights Since removal of rights usually involves 'active' Baha'is, then I think we should use the number for the Baha'i population that represents the active community. Wouldn't that put the number closer to 0.1% ? That number, though very small, is about the same as the pecentage of the population that are Baha'is in many countries. And we feel those numbers are highly significant. Payam =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 19:24:18 -0800 From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT ) Subject: The Truth of MENSA without the N in DC the other story ! A tale of varied pranks part one ! To: talisman@indiana.edu Dear Talismanians Linda's wild antics at Mensa with out the N or John and Juan's reasons for wearing dark glasses in the middle of the night in Washington DC. Linda very kindly admitted to a fit of the giggles in the line at the Hotel at the thought of tap-dancing on the Registration desk to the song 'Oh why are we waiting '. She failed to mention kicking the Achilles heels of two people ahead of her so she could advance in line .While they rolled in agony on the floor .Off telling the gray haired gentleman from Morocco his French girlfriend was waiting in the Hotel Sportsbar . The gentleman's wife grabbed him by the throat saying the immortal words "I knew this wasn't an academic forum . " The commotion that followed saw our Linda slipping to the head of the line . She then dragged over the registration counter the clerk who refused to upgrade the Walbridge room to a suite ,claiming the person was prejudiced against Shiite women scholars . The Hotel had to promise to place a full page of advertising in Linda's book when it comes out , have given her free hotel soap for life as well as a monthly shower cap to be hand delivered to Bloomington Indiana., to the Walbridge Estates . Every morning at breakfast she baited an innocent scholar from Egypt with the taunt " No good works since the Pyramids in your backyard Sonny Boy " Kept throwing pieces of melon at the a Sunni Sufi Academic followed with the chant : The Caliphs got you down and be a loser in Mecca . The plenary session presentation on the role of Mystics in the development of Islamic Jurisprudence was twice stopped by Linda doing cartwheels on stage . Her explanation to the assembled and rather confused academics was that carting needed looking into as a form of thought processing in the early days of Islamic Community development and especially the thorny issue of the ijaza that required riding backwards transsexual donkeys the 6th Monday of each month . Two bearded Imams from Kuwait wearing long flowing robes got accosted by Linda at dinner on the second night to the cry " I can twirl better without a beard watch me spin , Women save it " Both chaps had a poor command of English and thought Linda wanted to shave off their beards and left on the next flight home nervous wrecks . The Nights were one terrible incident after another including chasing my dear friend Juan Cole around the hotel lobby using a foghorn to bellow out : Watch me dunk this one in the Pool .and where are your leather clad female twins cousins now Matey !. The DC Mosque incident was very bad in addition to yelling "Watch it Bandaged Heads " She sprayed with pepper the next speaker causing him to cancel due to sneezing . Then did an Irish jig with the odd repeated remark this is what they did in Fustat in 152 AH . Finishing off by getting the daughters of the Imam-Jumih of Washington DC Mosque to dance the Can-Can to her loud shouts of ; you won't get them back on the Farm now that they have seen Paris . I will post on Tuesday more of the various happenings that occurred . I believe poor John has really been put through a lot . Especially when Linda burst into the study session on modernization of Druze's Society to the 21st century demanding they read "Javid Nama " as the salvation to their problem . When they refused she promptly spray painted them in bright yellow . Kindest Regards Derek Cockshut =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 16:09:13 +1200 To: Safa Sadeghpour , talisman@indiana.edu From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) Subject: Re: EVOLUTION Dear Safa, > >It might be better to present specific arguments against a specific positions >instead of proclaiming general conditions of truth. One thing that amazes me is the logical inconsistencies of empiricistic personages. In your above sentence you do what you ask me not to do. Are you able to see this? If not we can spent more time examining the matter. > >It is not true that anything that is not moderate is necessarily >not true. A perfect example might be that of God's existence: Is >God's existence true, or does He half-exist? Existence or non-existence. . . >the two extremes are the only options. First of all, what I wrote was : "Any intellectual position that is not moderate is untrue." A ref. for this: Baha'i Faith is the religion of the middle way (Shoghi Effendi). The Darwinistic viewpoint expresses itself in anti-religious forms (see letters to Talisman which again seek to devalue the station of 'Abdu'l-Baha, etc; and Darwin's own works): fundamentalism expresses itself in anti-scientific forms. These are extreme positions. To state that God exists is not an immoderate statement. To state that MY GOD exists and yours doesn't is immoderate. That that is just was these Darwinists and fundamentalists are doing. They are the flip side of each other, and not susceptible to rational argumentation. God wins the day, brother: moderation is ultimately determined by relationship to the Word of God. An intellectual position that departs from the Word of God eventually becomes implicated in immoderation. I not longer expect that what I write will have anymore influence than has a snowball in hell. But it seems that, like the sparrow, I am destined to sit on the wire and sing, for no apparently good reason... Robert. =END= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 19:40:01 -0500 From: "Ahang Rabbani" To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 4 [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII] First a note of thanks to all who continue to send private supportive emails about comments on Fadil's case. I don't mean to sound rude by this, but you must forgive me if I don't engage in further discussion of this episode and the specifics of the case -- mostly since I really don't know all the details (I thought I made that very clear already), but also partly because I believe we can do the memory of this great man a disservice by continuing to discuss his case. But since I love Fadil's work, I will continue to discuss ZH series. And before I do, please allow me to make a suggestion and hope that Rob Stockman would forward it for the consideration of appropriate committee: A formal Fadil-i Mazandarani lectures be instituted at the annual History Conferences in Wilmette. Given that Fadil is the most productive historian of our Cause (whatever you feel about the merits of his work, he produced nearly 9,000 pages of text on history of the Cause), then its befitting that such a memorial lecture, much like Balyuzi lectures at ABS, be inaugurated in his honor. OK, that was my last word about the man, from now on I will focus only on his work, still hoping that others will join the discussion ... As you recall we begin outlining contents of Zuhuru l-Haqq, vol. 3, (ZH-3) and decided to divide its contents into seven categories, the first being the Writings of the Bab quoted in that volume and outlined these Writings which appear in the first quarter of the book. Now I like to pick up where I left unfinished. P139-40: Persian, 0.4 pages, excerpt from Dala'il-i Sab'ih (the Seven Proofs) which refers to Mulla Husayn. (Notes: you will also find this quoted on page 23, note 5, of the Dawn-breakers). My own provisional translation follows: "You are acquainted with him who believed first, [Mulla Husayn]. You know that the majority of the learned Shaykhi and the Siyyidiyyih and other sects admired his knowledge and virtues. When he came to Isfahan the urchins of the town cried out as he passed, "ragged student has arrived on behalf of the Siyyid [Kazim-i Rashti]!" But this man by his proofs and arguments convinced the great scholar of that land by the name of Muhammad-Baqir! Truly that is one of the proofs of this Manifestation, for after the death of the Siyyid, may God's exaltation be upon him in paradise, this personage went to see most of the doctors and found Truth only with the Master of Truth [the Bab]. It was then that he attained the destiny which had been determined for him. In truth the people from the beginning until the end, till the Day of Resurrection, envy him. And who then can accuse this master-mind of mental weakness and infidelity?" P140: Arabic, 0.8 page, an extract about Mulla Husayn where his virtues are extolled and the Bab says unto the people of the world that they must fear God and believe in Him, much as has Mulla Husayn. P140-2: Arabic, 2 pages, the opening paragraphs of a Tablet of Visitation revealed in Mulla Husayn's honor. (Note: I know from elsewhere that this Tablet of Visitation is 300 pages long and only recently was relocated.) (P142: Persian and Arabic, two excerpts by Baha'u'llah about Mulla Husayn) P149-50: Arabic, 1.4 pages, Tablet addressed to Mulla Sadiq-i Khurasani revealed in Bushihr where specific instructions are given him about his proclamation of the new Day in Shiraz. P150-51: Arabic, 0.6 pages, a prayer revealed in honor of Mulla Sadiq where the Bab says he deserves the rewards of a 1000 martyrs. P164-66: Arabic, 2 pages, a Tablet addressed to Mulla Shaykh Ali Turshizi (`Azim), revealed towards the end of Mah-Ku period, where the Bab raises the call of Qa'imiyyat through `Azim. (This Tablet is of fundamental importance in understanding the station of the Bab and must be translated someday soon.) P169: Arabic, 0.3 pages, a portion of a Tablet addressed to Hajji Mirza Hasan-i Mashhadi. P173: Arabic, 0.2 pages, a portion of a Tablet addressed to Mulla Abdu'l-Khaliq Yazdi (P73-74: Persian, 0.3 pages, a portion of Tablet of Baha'u'llah where he recalls how Mulla Abdu'l-Khaliq recanted his faith on seeing the Bab's claim to Qa'imiyyat) P223-25: Persian, 2.5 pages, a Tablet of the Bab addressed to His own family where He outlines His own stations, provides conclusive proofs based on Qur'anic and Hadith prophecies, draws parallels between Himself and Muhammad and finally says those who believe in Him are considered denizens of paradise with the rest as dwellers of hell. Another very important Tablet begging to be translated. P231-32: Arabic, 0.2 pages, a portion of Tablet of Visitation for the shrine of Shah Abdu'l-Azim (located in the southern portion of Tihran). The Bab expresses His wish to be buried in the vicinity of this shrine, near Tihran, under the shadow of His "Beloved". (A wish which came through as Baha'u'llah instructed His remains buried in a wall there for a period of time, prior to eventual move to Haifa.) P235: Arabic, 0.3 pages, a portion of an early Tablet where the Bab instruct His followers to gather in Iraq (Kufih) after His return from pilgrimage. P243: Persian, 0.1 pages, regarding Vahid-i Darabi and Siyyid Javad Karbali, He states: "In the belief of any believer nonfulfillment (bada`) is possible, except in the certitude of Vahid-i Akbar (Siyyid Yahya) and Siyyid Javad-i Karbali nonfulfillment is not possible." (That is, anyone but these two can loss faith -- a statement worthy of much pondering.) P244: Arabic, 0.1 pages, addressed to Siyyid Javad-i Karbala'i where he is referred to as one of the Witnesses. P255(footnote): Arabic, 0.1 pages, addressed to Mulla Muhammad-Baqir, one of the Letters, about the importance of acquisition of sciences and knowledge. P266: Arabic, 2 pages, the first page is a reprint of the Bab's handwriting prior to His Declaration, and the second is a reprint of His well-known Tablet on Qa'imiyyat. P265: Arabic, 0.4 pages, a prayer where He laments the deeds of Husayn-Khan the governor of Shiraz. P268-69: Arabic, 0.5 pages, a prayer in which He recalls some of the misdeeds towards Him in the early days after His Declaration and how people due to their ego turned away from Him. P269-70: Arabic, 1 page, another prayer where he laments on the perversity of people, their lack of acceptance and events in the early days of Shiraz. (to be continued) lovingly, ahang. =END= From: Member1700@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:27:19 -0500 To: Talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Zuhuru'l-Haqq Much love and many thanks to Ahang for providing us with information on the background and content of Fadil-i Mazandarani's Zuhur al-Haqq. Indeed, it is an enormous blessing to have Ahang with us, and to have him so generously share his deep knowledge of Baha'i history and literature with us. We must all be grateful. As I understand from Roy Mottahedeh, the policy of calling for the collection of local Baha'i histories among the believers in Iran was actually initiated by the Greatest Holy Leaf during her brief tenure as the acting-Head of the Baha'i Faith after the passing of 'Abdu'l-Baha and during Shoghi Effendi's retirement to Europe. According to Roy, her policy was aimed at holding things together in the Iranian community after the traumatic loss of the Master. Of course, this policy was continued and extended by the Guardian. In addition, according to Roy, the Greatest Holy Leaf seems to have called for a census of the Baha'is in Iran at the same time. He told me that he had seen the documents in Haifa, and that during the early 1920s, the census yielded a number of 500,000 Baha'is in Iran. Yes, half a million! Since there are now only 300,000 or so, this is extremely suggestive for the recent history of the Faith in Iran. Perhaps the publication of Zuhur al-Haqq may even shed some light on this. Warmest, Tony =END= From: Member1700@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:38:22 -0500 To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Review / Provisional Translations Jonah: Thank you very much for your question and for your kind words about Kalimat Press. You are much appreciated here. The translations of the writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah that are found in Steve Lambden's essay in the fourth volume of the STUDIES series are not provisional. They were all submitted to the World Center for approval, and they were corrected and approved. So, this is an approved (authorized?) translation, rather than a provisional one. That is how it got through review. Warmest, Tony =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 00:15:31 -0500 (EST) From: Jonah Winters To: Member1700@aol.com Cc: talisman Subject: Re: Review / Provisional Translations AHA! Now I understand. So all of the translations that Lambden publishes in his journal have also been "approved" the same way? The only "provisional translations" we ever see in print are the ones posted on Talisman? I notice that Chris used an ingenious device for translating in his book: he called it a "paraphrase" which, I assume from reading the _Revelation_ series et al., is accepted? How close of a "paraphrase" would be accepted, if I may be so bold? ;-) Thanks for your answers. -Jonah =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Jonah and Kari Winters 33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527 =END= From: Member1700@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 01:23:47 -0500 To: Talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Evolution It does seem odd to me that Baha'is would insist on limiting 'Abdu'l-Baha's remarks on evolution to a short scientific essay, while ignoring their much more profound theological content. After all, as a scientific treatise, the chapter in Some Answered Questions is not very interesting or helpful. As a statement of morality and belief and social solidarity (as John has pointed out) it is startling in its modernity and deep insight. Not only should 'Abdu'l-Baha's remarks be understood in the light of Islamic philosophy (again our thanks to John), but also in the light of the popular ideas about evolution that were circulating in the West around the turn of the century. That is, we must take into account where the question was coming from--as well as where the answer was coming from. In particular, I would point to the (false) notion that was then popular that all animals could be ordered in some evolutionary hierarchy, with one descended from another. So that men must be descended from chimpanzees, who are descended from lower apes, and so forth. People literally believed that human beings must be descended from monkeys as we know them. And there was much made of trying to find the "missing link," that intermediate form between the two species, etc. In this context, 'Abdu'l-Baha's statement that man has always been man makes a great deal of scientific sense (that is, that man has his own seperate line of evolutionary development)--not back to the first amoeba, of course, but our ancestors were not chimpanzees, though obviously we share common ancestors with them. Warmest, Tony Tony =END= [end of 12/17/95 T951218þ ` { ¸‚+°¸‚+°T951218 q'H oc° ob@ oŸÐ ozÜ o0 TEXTAOp3 ÿÿÿÿ ]þ {¸‚+°¸‚+° 0´ Talisman emails received 12/18/95 ---------------------------------------------------------- From: l.droege@genie.geis.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 07:33:00 UTC 0000 To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: RE: List Rule #11 Since it appears that a ~rbiography is a requirement for subscribers, I'm emerging yet again from lurk mode to identify myself: My name is Leigh Droege; I've been a Baha{'i since 1971 (declared during a fit of teenage idealism and it stuck). Was born on Chicago's North {Shore & grew up there, but spent most of my adult life in Minnesota before deciding the cold was turning me homicidal. Moved to Florida last month. Scholarly qualifications: none whatsoever. I'm a college dropout (majored in Anthropology, minored in Geology) and have a tech zVschool degree in PC repair and network administration. {Main interests and hobbies: Fantasy/SF books & games, music (any style, any culture), natural sciences, fiddling with obsolete computers (I'm still stubbornly using an Apple IIGS, although I've got access to a PowerMac and an IBM Aptiva), and lurking in this list (my newest obsession ). I've written _one_ article (unpublished, a slightly ill-tempered review of a book attacking the Baha'i Faith from the perspective of a Christian fundamentalist). Otherwise I've made no useful contributions to society, although I'm hoping some of my music might someday be found palatable. A note: I saw that my previous post contained garbage characters. Those were not typos; they're due to a very dirty phone line, which I hope to remedy soon (hope being the operative word). I'm assuming this post will be ssimilarly blessed, so apologies in advance. { Leigh =END= From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck) Subject: Re: Zuhur'l-Haqq and Encyclopedia To: rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com (Ahang Rabbani) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 3:48:35 EST Cc: talisman@indiana.edu Ahang writes: ^^^^^^^^^^^^ This makes Shoghi Effendi all upset with Zuhuru'l-Haqq as he didn't like anything that deviated by a dot from the Dawnbreakers. So on 15 September 1932, he writes (my inadequate translation): "Immediately organize a special committee to investigate, reorganize and bring into conformity Jinab-i Fadil's history with that of Nabil's history [the Dawnbreakers]. Of this task and grave responsibility, no delay is permitted, and utmost effort must be diligently exerted." Poor Fadil. After a letter like this from the Guardian, well, his goose was cooked. ____________ RESPONSE In Christian terms, this endeavor would be called a *Gospel Harmony*. Considering that the *Dawnbreakers* is the Baha'i Gospel, the beloved Guardian's concern makes sense. The original Nabil and the *Dawnbreakers* and *Baha'u'llah, the King of Glory* are the Synoptic Gospels. *Zuhur al-Haqq* is the Gospel of John. Salmani and the other memoirs (Eric, can you repost Juan's description of them?) is the Gospel of Thomas. But the Dawnbreakers also had what would appear to be a critical apparatus: its French and English footnotes. With this in mind, I have two possibly *safe* uses of Zuhur al-Haqq to propose: (1) Volume 5 (and possibly most of Vol. 4) should not be bound by the Guardian's directive which Ahang translated, for the simple reason that there is no *Dawnbreakers* covering Baha'u'llah's ministry requiring harmonization. (Note that I am pressing the very same distinction as Ahang in differentiating between the Guardian's translation (and extensively reworking) of Nabil in the *Dawnbreakers*, as distinct from Nabil's manuscript itself.) Therefore, unless Balyuzi's masterpiece, *Baha'u'llah, the King of Glory* has the same status as the Dawbreakers (which I doubt), there should be no restriction in the use of Zuhur al-Haqq for writing on Baha'u'llah's life and work. Indeed, considering the Guardian's probable reasons for NOT translating the second half of Nabil, it may even be that ZH is superior to the latter half of Nabil. Either way, use of ZH for research on Baha'u'llah is not constrained by the directive in question (IMHO). (2) As to Fadil's Babi material, at the very least, it ought to enjoy the same status as the Footnotes to the Dawnbreakers. Some of those footnotes were in French. These were translated into English. Why not do the same with Vol. 3 of ZH? Having said that, I look forward to Ahang's detailed description of Vol. 4 of ZH. BTW, I agree completely with John Walbridge's reasons for justifying the parallel between Zuhur al-Haqq and the Baha'i Encyclopedia Project. Now, Ahang, you were circumspect in not wishing to divulge any more details regarding the persons and politics involved. But you have not given a single example of where Fadil and Nabil disagree. Could you cite an example? What about Zanjan? One final comment: Surely Fadil has material that is supplemental to Nabil. If so, what restrictions could there possibly be on Fadil's material that is not covered by Nabil? As for Baha'u'llah, doesn't Nabil's narrative contain miracle stories, whereas Fadil's chroncicles do not? -- Christopher Buck (Patiently waiting for Ishraq-Khavari's lecture on the Tablet of the Holy Mariner!). ********************************************************************** * * * * * * * * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est. * * * Carleton University * * * * * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * * * * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * * * * * * * * ********************************************************************** =END= From: belove@sover.net Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 00:35:54 PST Subject: Re: EVOLUTION To: talisman@indiana.edu On Mon, 18 Dec 1995 16:09:13 +1200 Robert Johnston wrote: >To state that God exists is not an immoderate statement. To state that MY >GOD exists and yours doesn't is immoderate. That that is just was these >Darwinists and fundamentalists are doing. > >I not longer expect that what I write will have anymore influence than has >a snowball in hell. But it seems that, like the sparrow, I am destined to >sit on the wire and sing, for no apparently good reason... > >Robert. > > > Really Robert! This "poor misunderstood messenger" position doesn't call forth a lot of sympathy from me and feels vaguely like an accusation that your thoughts are not being fairly considered. Speaking for my self, I do listen to your "vendor's song," but in this issue, I'm not buying. Also, the sparrow's reasons for singing vary. Sometimes the best reason for singing is because you have a song-o! Finally, these godless Darwinists you've been talking to really represent only a portion of the Darwinists in the world, many of whom imagine God is ways you might find acceptable. Philip ------------------------------------- Name: Philip Belove E-mail: belove@sover.net Date: 12/18/95 Time: 00:35:54 This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------- Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:18:11 -0500 (EST) From: Richard Vernon Hollinger To: Member1700@aol.com Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Zuhuru'l-Haqq On Sun, 17 Dec 1995 Member1700@aol.com wrote: > In addition, according to Roy, the Greatest Holy Leaf seems to have > called for a census of the Baha'is in Iran at the same time. He told me that > he had seen the documents in Haifa, and that during the early 1920s, the > census yielded a number of 500,000 Baha'is in Iran. Yes, half a million! > Since there are now only 300,000 or so, this is extremely suggestive for the > recent history of the Faith in Iran. I think this was undertaken by the Guardian, not the Greatest Holy Leaf. That's what Roy Mottahedeh told me, and I know that Shoghi Effendi undertook such a census in the West, because the lists that were compiled for him are in the US Baha'i Archives. Richard =END= Sub: ... no subject ... Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:08:04 +0000 (MULTINET_TIMEZONE) From: maeissin@ichange.com (Michael Eissinger) To: jwinters@epas.utoronto.ca Cc: Member1700@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu Sorry about the length, but this might help clear up this question. This is a copy of a letter posted by Robert Stockman, earlier on one of the NewsGroups... 26 November 1994 The questions which you put to Mr. XXXXXXXXXXXX on 23 August 1994 were submitted by him to the Universal House of Justice, and were in turn referred to the Research Department for its comments on issues which had already been determined in the past by the House of Justice. The Research Department's memorandum dated 26 November is enclosed, and it is hoped that its contents and the extracts attached to it will help to clarify some of the points which you raised. In response to your concerns about a category of "approved" translators and the potential inequities to which this might lead, the House of Justice wishes you to know that it does not have such a list of translators who are exempt from the requirement of submitting their provisional translations to the Baha'i World Centre for approval prior to publication. All individuals must continue to submit their provisional translations to the World Centre for approval. In making their submissions, they are free to request permission to publish specific provisional translations, and these will be considered on a case by case basis. At this time the House of Justice is giving consideration to decentralizing, to the extent advisable and feasible, the responsibilities for revising existing translations or preparing new translations of hitherto untranslated texts. It is certainly not the intention of the House of Justice to discourage Baha'i scholarship among the believers; on the contrary it attaches great importance to this area of activity. The existing policies are, by their very nature, temporary, and should be viewed as such by Baha'i scholars. Your recommendation that a translation reviewing committee, made up of translators whose work is known to the House of Justice, be formed under the auspices of the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, was not approved. The House of Justice assures you of its prayers for the success of your endeavours in discharging your important responsibilities. With loving Baha'i greetings, For Department of the Secretariat Enclosure with attachment M E M O R A N D U M To: The Universal House of Justice Date: 26 November 1994 From: Research Department Policy Concerning Provisional Translations The Research Department has studied the electronic mail messages dated 23 August 1994 and 14 September 1994 from XXXXXXXXXXXXX to XXXXXXXXXXX, who conveyed them to the Universal House of Justice at XXXXXXXXXXXX's request. XXXXXXXXXXX enquires about the current policies and procedures concerning the publication of new translations in the English language. He sets out his understanding of the present situation as follows: ...if a Baha'i scholar writes an article about some aspect of the Baha'i Faith he cannot translate a passage from the untranslated writings into English and publish it without first sending the translation to the Universal House of Justice for approval. Presumably it is possible for the scholar to paraphrase the passage; he might even translate phrases and collections of words, but not put quotation marks around them, thereby disguising the fact that they are a translation. But it is not permissible to translate even a few words within quotation marks, even if the footnote states the translation is a provisional one by the author. XXXXXXXXXXX also calls attention to recent decisions of the Universal House of Justice permitting XXXXXXXXXX and others to publish provisional translations. He cites a memorandum dated 8 September 1991, written on behalf of the House of Justice, which states: The first question ... concerns the use of provisional (and therefore unreviewed) translations of the Baha'i Writings that appeared in an article by XXXXXXXXXX. We have been asked to say that the policy of the House of Justice in this matter has not changed and that translations into English, and revisions of earlier translations into that language, must be checked at the World Centre and officially approved before publication. There have been, however, occasions when the House of Justice has permitted the publication of provisional translations made by individuals whose work is known to it. In these cases the translations usually appear in scholarly or other publications of limited distribution and are not likely to be used as a basis for translations into other languages. Such usage does not alter the general policy as stated above. In light of the foregoing, XXXXXXXXXXX expresses disquiet that perhaps two categories of scholars are being created -- those whose translations need to be submitted to the World Centre for approval and those who are exempt from this requirement. He asks whether, in fact, there is a list of "approved" Baha'i translators and raises a number of questions about its membership and the practical implications of having such a list, e.g., the possibility that the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States might appoint a translation reviewing committee which could, potentially, serve to speed up review, give translators new opportunities to gain experience and encourage a larger volume of new translations. Current Policies We attach a compilation of extracts from communications written by and on behalf of the House of Justice relating to the publication of new translations from which the following facts emerge: - An "authorized" translation is defined as a translation "approved by one or more translation committees appointed by the House of Justice". Such a translation may be improved or amended in the future [10]. - "Keen and capable scholars" are not prohibited from translating passages from the Sacred Writings [4]. - The policy calling for the submission of new translations into English to the Universal House of Justice for approval was first articulated in the memorandum on Baha'i publishing in 1971 (extract [1]). It has been reiterated on a number of occasions (extracts [3], [4], [5], [8], [9]). - Currently, the World Centre assumes responsibility for: - "the careful checking and approval of translations made into English from the original Writings". This policy is of importance since "translations into most other languages should be based on the approved English texts and not be made directly and solely from the original texts". [4] and [5] - deciding "what Works of Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha are to be translated when the time is ripe" [5], and for establishing a priority for their translation [4] and [5] - assessing the timeliness, the wisdom, and the potential impact "on the non-Baha'i public" of releasing translations on certain subjects [4] - Given the pressure of work of the Translation Committee at the World Centre, the Universal House of Justice has made the following provisions which can apply in the absence of an approved translation: - provisional translations of passages can be prepared to assist individuals in their study, but they should not be published "unless they are checked and approved by the World Centre" [5] - an author may replace "unauthorized translations" with "general descriptions of [the] contents" of the passages [6] - authors may "paraphrase the passages" they wish to include in their manuscripts [8] - While not altering the "general policy", there have been occasions when the Universal House of Justice has "permitted the publication of provisional translations made by individuals whose work is known to it" [9]. This provision appears to operate under the following circumstances: - when the author is known to be competent, "there is no objection in principle" to the publication of unauthorized translations "if clearly identified as provisional in character" [7] - "the translations usually appear in scholarly or other publications of limited distribution" [9] - the translations "are not likely to be used as a basis for translations into other languages" [9] Application of the Policies While it is very difficult to piece together a coherent picture of the application of the policies concerning the publication of new translations in the English language, we offer the following comment based on material provided by the Master Reference File and a perusal of a number of Baha'i journals and publications. - The National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, its Publishing Trust, and individual American believers appear to have received the most detailed guidance from the Universal House of Justice about the need to submit new translations for approval prior to publication. - Publishing Trusts and other Baha'i publishers submit new translations for approval prior to publication. - In the United Kingdom, the "Baha'i Studies Bulletin", which first appeared in 1982, regularly features provisional translations by such individuals as XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, and XXXXXXXXXX. Originally designed as a channel for communication between Baha'is interested in the scholarly study of the Faith, this journal was produced in mimeographed form. It appeared infrequently and had a very limited circulation. Since 1991, the "Baha'i Studies Bulletin" has become more professional in appearance and it is published on a more regular schedule. No information is available about the number of people who subscribe to it. To date, the Research Department has not been able to locate any communications between the Universal House of Justice and the National Spiritual Assembly of the United Kingdom or the editors of the "Baha'i Studies Bulletin" concerning the publication of provisional translations in this journal. It is clear, however, that some of those whose translations were published in the "Bulletin" in the early 1980s were aware of the need to submit their translations to the World Centre for approval and they complied with this requirement for publications other than the "Bulletin". It is possible that, from the outset, the "Baha'i Studies Bulletin" was not regarded as a publication, but rather as a means for sharing notes and manuscripts between friends and scholars. - "The Journal of Baha'i Studies" published in Canada includes provisional translations made either by the author of an article or someone else. Such translations are identified as "provisional", often in a footnote. It is interesting to observe that some of these provisional translations have been taken from the "Baha'i Studies Bulletin". - With regard to the statement written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the effect that "there have been ... occasions when the House of Justice has permitted the publication of provisional translations made by individuals whose work is known to it" [9]: Based on the materials we had assembled, apart from the situation of XXXXXXXXXX, which was specifically mentioned by the House of Justice, we have been unsuccessful in our attempts to identify other such "occasions". - With regard to the case of XXXXXXXXXX, the permission granted by the House of Justice does not appear to be a blanket permission, but rather pertains to particular translations XXXXXXXXXX wanted to use in his paper. Please refer to extract [7] in the attached compilation. - We have not been able to identify a list of "approved" translators who are exempted from the requirement of submitting their translations to the World Centre for approval prior to publication. Attachment POLICIES AND PROCEDURES CONCERNING THE PUBLICATION OF TRANSLATIONS Extracts from Communications Written by and on Behalf of the Universal House of Justice As regards English, the beloved Guardian's translations are obviously the most authentic and should be used. If, for some particular reason, a Baha'i author, when quoting a passage of the Sacred Text which has been rendered into English by the Guardian, wishes to use a translation other than that made by the beloved Guardian, his request may be referred to the Universal House of Justice. Passages from the Sacred Text not translated by Shoghi Effendi, but already in English and published with approval, may be used. If an author wishes to make his own translation of a passage not already translated by Shoghi Effendi, the new translation may be submitted to the Universal House of Justice for approval. (Ridvan 1971, from a memorandum by the Universal House of Justice on Baha'i publishing addressed to "National Spiritual Assemblies and all those concerned with the production of Baha'i publications")[1] There is definitely a gray area between publication on the one hand and the sharing of notes and manuscripts between friends and fellow-scholars on the other. Recognizing this distinction the House of Justice has made several decisions over the years which have a bearing on your question. 1. It has been decided that doctoral theses and similar treatises submitted to institutions of learning for the obtaining of a degree are not subject to Baha'i review unless they are to be published more widely than is required for the degree in question.... (11 May 1982, from a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer) [2] The Universal House of Justice has no objection in principle to your Trust's publishing translations of previously untranslated Tablets, but it would like to know which Tablets or passages are being considered for publication. As to approval of the translations, Mr. ... is in frequent contact with the World Centre and is familiar with the fact that whenever he wishes to have any of his translations published he should submit them to the World Centre for checking. (25 July 1982, written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States) [3] As you know, the World Centre is responsible for the careful checking and approval of translations made into English from the original Writings. The House of Justice feels that, in the present circumstances, the time has not yet come to relinquish this responsibility or to delegate it to a committee outside the Holy Land. This is of particular significance as it is the current policy of the House of Justice that translations into most other languages should be based on the approved English texts and not be made directly and solely from the original texts. The Publishing Trust will readily realize that this process of approval of translations is very time-consuming. For your information, we have been asked to point out that there are several Tablets which have already been rendered into English by competent translators, yet their approval has had to be postponed until a future time, notwithstanding the fact that their contents can be extremely useful to the friends everywhere, as they include specific Tablets revealed by Baha'u'llah or `Abdu'l-Baha suitable for devotional readings at Baha'i Holy Days and anniversaries. The little time, therefore, that can be spared at the World Centre for approval of translations of Sacred Texts into English should primarily be devoted to projects which would be of direct benefit to the believers or promote the teaching work.... Furthermore, as you are well aware, the enemies of the Faith would use any pretext to attack the Baha'i community and discredit its Founders or its teachings. It is therefore not wise at this time to undertake large-scale projects to publish the Writings of Baha'u'llah, or those of the Bab and `Abdu'l-Baha, without carefully assessing the effect of such publications on the non-Baha'i public.... This, of course, does not mean that such keen and capable scholars as Mr. ... should be prohibited from translating passages from the Sacred Writings or, indeed, entire Tablets, provided this is done with discrimination and, possibly, as indicated in the letter of your Publishing Trust dated 21 June, undertaken in stages with adequate annotations for reproduction in, or incorporation in articles for, the "World Order" magazine. Such a procedure would avoid placing too much pressure on the World Centre at this time. (19 December 1982, written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States)[4] The decision on what Works of Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha are to be translated when the time is ripe is taken by the Universal House of Justice.... As you will appreciate, the volume of the Sacred Writings is far greater than can possibly be translated at the present time; therefore the House of Justice has to concentrate on obtaining translations of those texts that are of immediate relevance to the work of the Cause at this stage of its development. If any of your Iranian friends have Tablets in Persian of which you do not have a translation, there would be no objection to your having them give you a provisional translation of any passages which particularly interest you. Such translations should not be published, however, unless they are checked and approved by the World Centre, since translations into English form the basis for translations into most other languages and it is vital for them to be as accurately and beautifully made as possible. (19 October 1983, written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer) [5] EDITED TEXTS OF TWO TABLETS ARE NOT PARAPHRASES, BUT UNAUTHORIZED TRANSLATIONS. OWING PRESSURE WORK HERE, SUGGEST REPLACE THESE PASSAGES WITH GENERAL DESCRIPTIONS OF CONTENTS.... (23 August 1988, telex from the Universal House of Justice to a publisher) [6] XXXXXXXXXX has requested confirmation on the acceptability of the the publication of his provisional translations in the paper before you on Matter. Although these extracts cannot be reviewed here for the present, there is no objection in principle, given the competence of the author, to their use if clearly identified as provisional in character. (21 November 1990, written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the Association for Baha'i Studies, Canada) [7] It is noted that you are hoping to include English excerpts from two Tablets revealed by Baha'u'llah of which authorized translations are not available. In view of pressures of work on the Translation Committee at the World Centre, it is regretted that it would not be possible for your translations of extracts from the Writings of Baha'u'llah to be reviewed and approved by that Committee. It is suggested, therefore, that you do what other authors have done in similar cases, namely, paraphrase the passages which you wish to include in your manuscript. (5 December 1990, written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer) [8] The first question ... concerns the use of provisional (and therefore unreviewed) translations of the Baha'i Writings that appeared in an article by XXXXXXXXXX. We have been asked to say that the policy of the House of Justice in this matter has not changed and that translations into English, and revisions of earlier translations in that language, must be checked at the World Centre and officially approved before publication. There have been, however, occasions when the House of Justice has permitted the publication of provisional translations made by individuals whose work is known to it. In these cases the translations usually appear in scholarly or other publications of limited distribution and are not likely to be used as a basis for transla- tions into other languages. Such usage does not alter the general policy as stated above. (8 September 1991, from a memorandum written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer) [9] With reference to your present request for clarification of the difference in the use of "authorized" and "provisional" when describing translations, we are to convey the following. When a translation is approved by one or more translation committees appointed by the House of Justice, the translation is regarded as authorized. This does not mean it is final, as improvements or amendments can always be made in the future. In the work of translation from the original text into English, the following statement was made by Shoghi Effendi when he released the text of his translation of "The Kitab-i-Iqan": This is one more attempt to introduce to the West, in language however inadequate, this book of unsurpassed pre-eminence among the writings of the Author of the Baha'i Revelation. The hope is that it may assist others in their efforts to approach what must always be regarded as the unattainable goal -- a befitting rendering of Baha'u'llah's matchless utterance. (11 February 1992, written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer) [10] =END= From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: 90s pub stats To: "Stockman, Robert" Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 9:53:30 EST Cc: talisman@indiana.edu According to Stockman, Robert: > > > Fascinating statistics. But they need to be normalized to > English-language membership to be useful. OCLC is an international database with works in dozens of languages. While English-language ephemera (e.g. pamphlets) may be overrepresented compared to non-English works, for serious books, especially contemporary ones, it is safe to assume that at least one makes it into the collection of an OCLC library. I checked the Spanish language publications to see whether or not the situation was comparable; it was. Will look into other languages but compare fewer traditions. The Baha'is probably have > about 250,000 English language speakers worldwide; the Mormons, five > million (4.5 million of the some 8 million Mormons woldwide live in > the U.S.); the Adventists, a million or so (there are 750,000 Seventh > Day Adventists in the US alone). Spiritualism is a vaguely defined > movement and I don't know what the estimates for membership are, but > it is also a subject of a lot of popular and scholarly literature. > The Christian Scientists probably have about twice the > English-speaking membership of the Faith worldwide, so their numbers > are comparable. > > It is not clear to me that one can conclude much about the impact of > prepublication review from the statistics below. It's more a reflection of the overall literary productivity of the Faith (including works by outsiders about it), which has many causes, one of which is presumably the review situation. =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 09:07:01 -0500 From: "Ahang Rabbani" To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- NSA's objections [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII] Chris Buck is right, I've not given examples as to what the Iranian NSA objected to in ZH-3; I do so now. But first a comment: during the past day or two, its been brought to my attention, from an unimpeachable source, that actually my comment that the Guardian didn't wish "a dot of deviation from the Dawn-breakers" is not correct and that he was fully aware of the limitations of this book and encouraged alternative versions. This is fine. In good faith I accept this. (And I'm not saying so as taqqiyyih). This would be consistent with my view of the Guardian as a very progressive, liberal mind. However, the burden of proof for this claim is now with those that hold such views that the beloved Guardian did not object to deviations from the Dawn-breakers. I have posted the *only* letter of the Guardian that I know on this subject, and I'm sure there are *many* more. So, for now, I'm standing by my story, but would love nothing more than being proved wrong. I say that from the depth of my heart. The letter that I quoted is dated 15 Sept 1932. Its an early letter. The Iranian NSA's public letter is 11 Jalal 107 BE (1951) -- some 2 decades later. But they quote only this one letter of the Guardian. I'm sure that there had been *many* more communications form Shoghi Effendi during these 19 years. Why didn't the Iranian NSA quote them? Why did they base their entire public case on this single early letter of the Guardian? Based on this evidence, am I to believe that the Guardian's position actually did not change and that in fact he did not like deviations from the Dawn-breakers? That's going to be my position for now, pending further evidence to the contrary. Now, back to NSA's letter where they objected to information in ZH-3 which deviated from the Dawn-breakers. What follows is my summary translation of this open letter: (Note: the Iranian NSA used the Arabic translation of the Dawn-breakers as their base of comparison, so all the page numbers to DBA means "Dawn-breakers Arabic") 1. On page 16 of ZH-3, its stated that among the places where the Bab stayed is the house of Muhammad-Big Chaparchi. But on page 187 of DBA it is stated that near Tabriz, Muhammad-Big handed over the Bab to the Tabriz authorities. 2. On page 17 of ZH-3, its stated that the Bab was bastinadoed at the hand of Shaykhu'l-Islam at courtyard of his house. But on page 295 of DBA its stated that this beating took place in his inner court, namaz-khanih, and a picture of this location is also provided on on page 254 of DBA and 318 of English original. 3. At the end of page 16 and beginning of page 17 of ZH-3, it is stated as follows: "And the mutilated body of that martyr, Sulyman-Khan, was hidden on at a location outside of Tihran near the shrine of Shah Abdu'l-Azim". But on page 496 of DBA its written that it was taken to shrine of Imam-zadih Hasan. 4. From line 11 to 16 of page 30 of ZH-3 is in contradiction with the Dawn-breakers. [ahang: In these lines Fadil is quoting from the history of Haj Mu'inu's-Saltanih where Haj Mu'in, based on the observation of those present states, that at the second firing on the Bab, on His day of martyrdom, again the ropes were torn and both the mutilated body of the Bab and still barely alive body of Anis fell to the ground and that Anis crawled over to the Bab and in his last breath uttered: "Are you well please with me, my Master?"] 5. On beginning of page 63 of ZH-3, Mulla Mihdi Khu'y is referred to as a Letter of the Living, whereas he is not counted as such. 6. On page 69 of ZH-3, towards the end of page, it is written: "On the question of condition of prison, the situation of Mah-Ku, and the story of Ali-Khan was discussed in the previous volume [ZH-2]. It was at the prison of Mah-Ku where the call of Qa'imiyyat was raised and a new shariyyat commenced through revelation of the Persian and Arabic Bayans." However, in the Dawn-breakers it is written that when they brought the Bab to Tabriz for His trial, outside of the city gate, He first announced His Qa'immiyyat to Azim and then later at the trail repeated this Call. 7. Towards the end of page 75 of ZH-3 it is written that Nawruz-Ali carried the Tablet of the Bab addressed Hajji Sulyman-Khan from Zanjan to him. But in the Dawn-breakers the carrier of this Tablet is Mulla Iskandar. 8. On page 93 of ZH-3, it was written that the daughter of Muhammad-Shah was planned for the marriage with the Bab. But in page 167 of DBA, it is the sister of Muhammad-Shah. 9. On page 98 of ZH-3, is stated that Mirza Muhammad-Ali Nahry had no child and hence wished for one, where the Bab offered him some of His food. But in the Dawn-breakers it is stated that Mirza Ibrahim made such a request of the Bab on behalf of his brother Mirza Muhammad-Ali, and that the latter was not even at the gathering. 10. On page 104, line 7 and 8, of ZH-3, as the text also notes, there is a deviation between the number of reported martyrs of Isfahan. 11. On page 109, line 10, of ZH-3, the length of the stay of the friends at Badasht is recorded as 10 days, whereas in the Dawn-breakers its 22 days. Ahang again: I'm getting very depressed with this translation and I don't want to continue. The NSA letter has a total of 16 pages where they outline 37 such deviations, of which the first 11 are listed above and the remaining 26 are very similar. It concludes with a short letter by Fadil in which he states his consent and askes the readers of ZH-3 to make these 37 "corrections". In the words of a friend, reading Fadil's retraction, makes one ashamed to be a Baha'i. I'm going to leave it to your judgment whether these "deviations" are worthy of ruining the reputation of Fadil-i Mazandarani and burying the Zuhuru'l-Haqq project. ahang. =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 11:19:58 -0500 (EST) From: Juan R Cole To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Evolution & SAQ I have Keven Brown's permission to post a comment he recently made about `Abdu'l-Baha's statement that the human "species" always existed. Keven and I agree that by "species" he did not intend the modern biological concept. Rather, he meant the sublunar reflected `species' (naw`) governed by the Platonic Form or Idea of humanity. I have suggested before that the Master believed that the Platonic Form or Idea of humanity is reflected in whatever actually-existing earthly species has attained the most complex neurological development at any one time. Its specific biological form is irrelevant. Clearly, all this is a sort of Neoplatonic theology, a means of making Jabarut-level, right-brain sense of evolution; it is not Nasut-level, left-brain science. (Keven Brown is, incidentally, a Baha'i Ph.D. student in Near Eastern Languages and Cultures at UCLA, working with Amin Banani and Hossein Ziai on Islamic philosophy.) Of course, all this is only put forward tentatively and awaits the imprimatur of our foremost living Baha'i philosopher and Suhrawardi expert, John Walbridge. On Sat, 16 Dec 1995 Keven19@aol.com wrote: I feel relatively > sure that 'Abdu'l-Baha does not mean "species" in this purely nominal sense, > and is applying it in a special way to the same thing that Suhrawardi called > rabb-i naw' and rabb-i sanam, and which he and his commentators understood as > the Platonic Form. Since these are eternal, in a certain sense their > reflections or shadows also have to be eternal, i. e. the individual members > of species are generated wherever and whenever capacity exists to receive the > form. Hence, man on the planet earth at a certain point in time appeared and > developed under the influence of his species lord because the capacity was > there in matter or in the relationships existing between beings, but this > does not mean that man did not exist previously on other planets where > capacity had already been developed to receive the influence of the species > lord. This is where the Baha'i conception goes beyond Darwinism in > recognizing a preexisting supernatural cause for all the species on earth. > The evolution of creatures may be governed in part by random forces, but more > essentially it is directed by the Mind of God and is a direct effect of His > Will. There are many places where 'Abdu'l-Baha argues against the formation > of beings by any other means except by God's will, and the species lords can > be understood as being inherent in the Primal Will. This is why they cannot > be taken as logical universals in the usual sense. They only resemble > universals because they have a common influence over the species' individuals > under their care but other than this they are completely different from > logical universals because they have a causal priority to particulars. > > cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan =END= From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: 90s pub stats by language To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 11:29:11 EST Cc: theos-l@vnet.net Continuing my research into WorldCat titles for various religious movements of the 19th century. One can search by any of a number of languages. A search for book titles published in the 1990s about six religions in six languages revealed the following: English Spanish German French Russian Japanese Mormon 1421 12 0 4 1 1 Adventist 925 32 8 3 1 1 Spiritualist 428 42 6 29 12 17 C. Science 239 3 3 2 1 1 Baha'i 203 7 1 1 0 0 Theosophy 118 20 9 4 32 0 For Theosophists, this is an encouraging picture. In German and Russian, there are more new books on Theosophy than any other of the 6 traditions. In Spanish, French and English, Theosophy's publishing presence is comparable to those of groups dozens of times larger. For Baha'is, it would appear that English-language works are a disproportionately *high* percentage compared to other groups, or to Baha'i membership statistics. Raising questions about database coverage. Another search looked for new titles in the 1990s on the world religions in all languages. The totals: Christianity 45034, Judaism 15649, Islam 10745, Buddhism, 7432, Hinduism 3050, Sikhism 359, Baha'i 255. Even allowing for some distortion caused by a North American databse, this shows Judaism, Christianity and Buddhism to be producing far more literary works in relation to their memberships than is found in the cases of Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, and Baha'i. BTW a listing of the titles under Islam shows them overwhelmingly in Arabic and other non-European languages, indicating OCLC's coverage. =END= From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: 7 Returns of Christ To: theos-l@vnet.net Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 12:26:59 EST Cc: talisman@indiana.edu Having wandered into the subject of comparative publishing output for different 19th century religious movements, I found much more information than I went looking for. The immediate reason for searching WorldCat was to compare Baha'i publishing to that of comparable traditions. But in coming up with five other examples (and contemplating a sixth) there is one surprising implication: the theme of Christ's return runs through all of them. The Mormons, most successful of 19th century religions, claim to have the restored gospel and the restored early Church. Their prophecies include a fairly imminent return of Christ. The Adventists, 2nd most numerous, have based their entire movement on anticipation of the return. Baha'i teaching in Western countries tends to center on Baha'u'llah's claim to be the returned Christ. Christian Science sees its founder as complementing the original gospel with new information about Christ's message; her own spiritual status is ambiguous. Spiritualism defines Jesus as a great medium, and has produced a large body of "channeled" material about him. Theosophy emphasizes the law of cycles, and various factions anticipate (or have anticipated) cyclical teachers who in some sense are seen as returns of Christ-- most notably Krishnamurti, who rejected the role. Theosophical offshoots like Anthroposophy, the Temple of the People and the Lucis Trust are even more emphatic about the present being a time for Christ to return; yet the return is often defined as a spiritual rather than material event. Radhasoami, another movement from the 19th century, teaches that its spiritual practices are the same techniques implicit in the teachings of Jesus, and can give direct access to him. The work of Edgar Cayce recapitulates themes from all seven of these traditions. What is most interesting from the above facts, in light of publishing statistics, is that contemporary vitality in spiritual movements seems so connected to visions of Christ's return, conceived in a great variety of manners. Regardless of the dubious accuracy of most claims made on behalf of this event, it is revealing about our time in history that this theme is so prevalent. If we define the Christ as an archetype of the collective unconscious, it seems fair to say that He/It *has* returned *through* all the movements mentioned above. Returned in many new forms, and with conflicting messages. =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:39:03 -0700 (MST) From: "[G. Brent Poirier]" To: Don Peden Cc: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Conscience On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, Bev/Don Peden wrote: > When it comes to passive resistance, (which is really what we are > discussing with reference to an individual's inability to follow a directive > which they feel is contrary to moral conscience), it is very hard to have a > catagorical answer...all cases are different...and one walks on very tricky > ground, such as the issue of Germany. We are also distinguishing between > moral obligation of obedience to Baha'u'llah's directive to obey just > governments, and the obligation to be obedient to the House of Justice. Is > the House of Justice a just government, or is it something else? A key word > which, perhaps, bears some exploration is "just". It seems that you have > had some dialogue on this issue with the world centre, and I would be very > interested in hearing what the Universal House of Justice responded. I > don't know if this is old territory on Talisman or not, and if it is, > perhaps a private posting would be appropriate to continue on. I can look up the letters I've sent and received on the subject; I'll try to do so over the Christmas weekend. There does not seem to me to be a dichotomy between what Baha'u'llah said and what the House said. There are two principles enunciated by Baha'u'llah: Obedience to government and not killing. Both of these have been carried forward by the Guardian and by the House. The Guardian stated that if available, Baha'is should seek non-combatant service. Dave can clarify for me, but my understanding is as follows. Non combatant, in general, refers to service which is by nature not violent: Cook, medic, quartermaster, etc. However, there is another aspect to this. At present, there are, in military parlance, no noncombatants in the US military service. Whatever job a particular soldier has, he or she is subject to an order to change duties without notice, and take up arms. However, during the days of the Guardian in World War II, and during the Vietnam War, there was a category for religious conscientious cooperators, and I think there was an agreement that these people would not be subject to an order to take up arms. So (again, from the armchair; it's a whole other reality when you are in an ambush, and your life and the lives of your friends are very much at risk of a horrible death) a Baha'i medic who was, during the Vietnam War, ordered to take up arms, might or might not be receiving a *lawful* order. And American military law requires U.S. soldiers to obey every lawful order. That's the way the law is written. Not having been in the military I freely admit I might have the whole thing wrong. The main point I am making is that the dichotomy between taking up arms in an ambush situation in furtherance of the Baha'i principle of obedience to government, versus refusing to do so in furtherance of the Baha'i principle of not committing violence against a fellow human being, is not a Baha'u'llah-House of Justice dichotomy, but a conflict between two principles revealed by Baha'u'llah, and enunciated by the Guardian and by the House after Him. My recollection from the story I read by David, is that he did not take up arms, and the situation worked out. He followed his conscience and his standing on principle as he honestly understood it in that situation, carried him and his friends through. Brent =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:42:09 -0500 (EST) From: Juan R Cole To: Jonah Winters Cc: Member1700@aol.com, talisman Subject: Re: Review / Provisional Translations Jonah: Stephen Lambden's *Baha'i Studies Bulletin* is published under the auspices of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United Kingdom. As with many other Baha'i journals (e.g. World Order and the Journal of Baha'i Studies), refereeing the articles has been turned over to the editor and this in-house peer-review procedure is counted as fulfilling Review. The provisional translations that have appeared in *Baha'i Studies Bulletin* were not vetted by the Research Department in Haifa. On the other hand, the *Baha'i Studies Bulletin* is received in Haifa (I've heard the copies get snapped up immediately), and it is perfectly well known to the House and the Research Department that these provisional translations have been published there, and Mr. Lambden has never been instructed to desist. As for e-mail, the letter of the Universal House of Justice permitting electronic-mail discussion groups among the Baha'is, posted by Saman last spring, categorizes such groups as "private" discussions, not public "publications", and therefore does not require Review of what goes on here. Again, the House and the Research Department are perfectly well aware that provisional translations have been posted here, and they have not seen fit to ask anyone to desist. It is not the place of anyone else to tell another Baha'i what to do. A provisionally translated paragraph was published, by Keven Brown, in the Journal of Baha'i Studies, and when Rob queried the House on it he was told that it was all right because they trusted Mr. Brown's translating abilities (or words to that effect). Circulating provisional translations is absolutely essential to the advance of Baha'i scholarship. Only in this way can scholars get feedback on their translations from peers. I had excellent comments from Dr. Franklin Lewis of the University of Chicago on my translation of Baha'u'llah's "Commentary on the Surah of the Sun" after it appeared in *Baha'i Studies Bulletin*. It would have been impossible for me to send the translation out privately to 150 persons in hopes of getting this one response. Thanks to Michael Eissinger for posting the letters from the Research Department about provisional translation. My reply is that, however, these guidelines do in fact make conventional academic scholarship on the Baha'i Faith difficult or impossible, and impede the growth of Baha'i studies as a field. John Walbridge has already powerfully stated some of the reasons for this. There are also philosophical problems. There simply is not only one right way to translate something, nor can there be an all-purpose translation. Philosophers and historians must be free to translate contextually in order to make their arguments. There should be one Some Answered Questions translation for the lay community, and another for the use of professional philosophers and theologians. And, of course, eventually there will be a multiplicity of translations of Baha'i texts, just as there are of the Bible and the Qur'an. Another problem is that the Research Department sometimes itself gets things wrong. When Mr. Faizi's translation of *Stories from the Delight of Hearts* was reviewed in Haifa, he had accurately translated Mirza Haydar `Ali's encounter with the ahl-i tariqat as an encounter with Sufis. The Research department objected to this rendering and insisted it be replaced with "people of religion" or some such pablum. Of course, this was before Dr. Vahid Rafati was hired (he has the same degree as I do, in Islamic Studies from the University of California). But one person cannot do everything--more especially since the Research Department has very little time indeed to do things like check translations, mainly spending their time looking up references for the practical needs of the House. The American Baha'i community now actually has far more expertise and talent in this area than does Haifa, with Professor Amin Banani, UCLA, Professor Heshmet Moayyad, U of Chicago, Dr. Frank Lewis, U of Chicago, Professor Sholeh Quinn, U of Ohio, Professor Todd Lawon, McGill, Professor John Walbridge, Indiana University, and a number of others; it is perhaps for this reason that the House can now envisage decentralizing some of these processes. I can only think of three persons in Haifa whose suggestions for how better to render a verse I would seek out--Vahid Rafati, Mark Hellaby and Hushmand Fatheazam. But in no case would I feel bound but such a suggestion, especially if the issue were historical, since I've spent years reading 19th-century Arabic newspapers, e.g. I'd be equally interested in what Professor Banani, Moayyad, Lewis and Walbridge, e.g., had to say. There is no justification from expertise in the current procedure, which makes it unwieldy and irrational. Those lay Baha'is who are so eager to tell professional Baha'i historians and philosophers how they should do things would be well advised to listen to us when we say that their suggestions are impractical and have a deleterious effect upon Baha'i scholarship (and thence upon a number of other important areas--publication of journal articles, incorporation of accurate accounts into reference works, public knowledge of the Faith, and teaching persons of capacity). cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:39:39 -0800 From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT ) Subject: Baha'i Studies Bulletin ! at Bosch To: talisman@indiana.edu The Baha'i Studies Bulletin which is published in the UK is available at the Bosch Book Shop . We have several issues . I mention this because of a posting that Juan did to Jonah Winters . Kindest Regards Derek Cockshut =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 13:23:54 EWT From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Fadil and Babism To: talisman@indiana.edu With regard to the suppression of Zuhur al-Haqq and the public disgrace of Fadil, there is an ideological side that Ahang did not touch on. It has to do with changing attitudes to the Bab and the Babis. The nuances of Baha'i attitudes towards the Babi and the Babi religion have changed over time. Three interpretations are relevant here: 1) Sympathy with Babism as a revolutionary Shiite movement continuous with esoteric and sectarian Shiism. 2) Distancing of the Baha'i Faith from Babism on the grounds that the Baha'i Faith is a distinct religious movement. 3) Retroactive assimilation of the Babi religion to Baha'i standards. The fact is that in many ways the Babis *were* different from Baha'is. They were deeply involved in a sort of cabbalistic eschatology that goes far back into the esoteric and charismatic roots of Shiism. They did not share the Baha'i rejection of violence. They were, on the whole, a thoroughly Shiite enterprise. Baha'u'llah, who was trying to preserve the community, stressed the distinctiveness of the Baha'i religion. This is most easily seen in various statements of 'Abdu'l-Baha where he stresses, for example, that violence of the sort practiced by the Babis was contrary to the Baha'i religion. This is alternative (2). Alternative (3) stresses the commonality of the Babi and Baha'i religions and minimizes those aspects of the Babis that differed fundamentally from the Baha'i Faith. The two great champions of this approach are Shoghi Effendi's Nabil and the Guardian himself. At least in the form we have it, Nabil's history is, among many other things, an attempt to justify Babi history as being in conformity with Baha'i standards. Thus, in the study I did of his treatment of the battle of Zanjan, he downplays, reinterprets, or omits anything that portrays the Babis as aggressive. Such an approach is very characteristic of the Guardian who translated Nabil and who carefully refers to the various battles as "upheavals," rather than "Babi revolts," in *God Passes By*. Such a position served to strengthen the quite valid Baha'i claim to be apolitical and law-abiding. Probably as a result of 'Abdu'l-Baha's distancing of the Faith from the Babis, Babi studies were generally out of fashion with Iranian Baha'i scholars in the period between the death of 'Abdu'l-Baha and the Islamic Revolution. Virtually none of the Bab's works were published by the Iranian Baha'is, and not very much was written about the Bab. The current revival of interest in Babi studies arose in the West. The exception was Fadil. Apart from the three volumes of Zuhuru'l-Haqq dealing with the Shaykhis and Babis, he is far more likely than his contemporary Ishraq-Khavari to cite Babi parallels as explanations for Baha'i texts and teachings. He is also far more likely to cite Islamic parallels. Fadil was thus stressing the continuity of the Baha'i Faith with Babism and Islam and stressing the Shiite and Babi aspects of the Baha'i Faith at a time when the general policy was to stress the distinctiveness, rationality, and modernity of the Baha'i Faith. Moreover, his deep and detailed knowledge of Babi thought and history tended to undermine the two rhetorical moves that would distance the Baha'i Faith from the esoteric and sectarian aspects of the Babis. In contrast, all three of those responsible for Fadil's fall and the suppression of Zuhur al-Haqq were committed to other interpretations of the Faith. Furutan was a Russian-trained educationist deeply involved in the modernization of Iranian education and with little sympathy for the esoteric Shiite tradition that Fadil recognized in the Babi and Baha'i Faiths. Ishraq- Khavari also was exclusively concerned with Baha'i topics to the exclusion of Babi material. He also translated of Shoghi Effendi's translation of Nabil into Persian (from an Arabic translation of the English!). Shoghi Effendi was Western-educated and his views are well known. The suppression of Fadil's work can thus be seen as an attempt to preserve the integrity of a particular reinterpretation of Baha'i history--one that portrayed the Babis as (1) marginal to current Baha'i concerns and (2) proto-Baha'is--against an intepretation of Babi and Baha'i history that (1) stressed the distinctive features of the Babis and (2) implicitly stressed the continuity of Islam, Babism, and the Baha'i Faith. john walbridge =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:30:10 -0500 To: talisman@indiana.edu From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower) Subject: Sema, the Alim, etc. Dear friends, Filled to overflowing on this Monday morning. Saturday evening I participated (as a musician) yet another time in the Sema, the traditional whirling ceremony of the Mevlevi Dervishes (Threshold Society/Threshold Books). This ceremony is so profoundly powerful and beautiful and always opens the hearts of even those spectators that don't understand exactly what it is they're seeing and hearing. The ceremony itself is symbolic of the death of our small self and resurrection to the Beloved. The music is classical Turkish Sufi music, composed specifically for Sema. Three drums, a ney (reed flute), voice, bowed tanbour, and tanbour all played by a Turk, a Syrian-Russian, a Greek, a Kuwaiti, and three white folks (Boston's Eurasian Ensemble and guests). A Persian artist from Manhattan came to chant the opening lines of the Mathnawi and a surah of the Qur'an. The music evokes such longing as slowly the semazens (dervishes) begin to whirl, unfolding like flowers in long white flowing skirts and tall felt hats (sikkes), their right hands turned toward heaven to receive baraka (blessings) and their left hand turned toward the earth to bestow the blessing on all creation. It filled me with such joy to be able to share in this with people of many tariqats and diverse cultures. Over two hundred people from little ol' Brattleboro, VT and beyond attended the event and over one hundred stayed to join in the Mevlevi dhikr (reciting Names of God with drumming and movement). The traditional Sema is performed annually in Konya, Turkey, Cairo, Egypt, and Brattleboro, Vermont. I'll be bringing some music of this tradition, Insha'llah, to the Mysticism Conference at Bosch in February. So, SIGN UP NOW. Juan: The ALIM is truly a wonderful tool, great fun, and, yes, even as addictive as Talisman. So, let the buyer beware. Warmest Regards, LuAnne =END= From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck) Subject: Re: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- NSA's objections To: rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com (Ahang Rabbani) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 14:10:56 EST Cc: talisman@indiana.edu FROM NSA OBJECTIONS TO SOURCE CRITICISM Perhaps one problem in the writing of Baha'i history is that the sources are not allowed to speak for themselves, and to be judged on their own merits, on a case-by-case basis. Fadil worked from his sources, as did Nabil, as did the beloved Guardian. The integrity of none of these three historians should have ever been questioned -- only the integrity of the primary sources themselves. DOES THE GUARDIAN'S DIRECTIVE PROHIBIT USE OF ZH VOLS. 4 & 5? Obviously overcome by the injustice done to Fadil, Ahang's pearls were left unstrung. I still wish to hear Ahang's response to my tongue-in-cheek comments on Gospel harmonization. Christianity's first great scholar -- Origen -- noted that there was an irreconcilable disharmony been the Gospel of John and the Synoptics. My question is this: How far does the Guardian's requirement for harmonization really go? For the sake of argument, let us say that publication of ZH is constrained by the *Dawnbreakers*. But the Dawnbreakers only takes us so far. There is nothing against which ZH vols. 4 & 5 MUST be measured, except possibly for *God Passes By*. If there is a disagreement as to sources, it is not arguing against the integrity or the conferred infallibility of the Guardian when sources are critically and impartially examined. Stephen Lambden (and, following him, Michael Sours) has argued that there are hagiographical tendencies in Nabil in the creation of a Baha'i *myth* that gilds its received history. And even the House has written a letter suggesting that the Guardian's historical accuracy was constrained by his sources. So, here again, we need to critically evaluate the sources, not the historians. RECLAIMING FADIL'S INTEGRITY: A PROPOSAL TO TRANSLATE AN ABRIDGEMENT OF ZH VOLS 4 & 5 *Dawnbreakers* takes us only to the dawn of Baha'u'llah's ministry. The Arabic original of the second half of Nabil's history remains unpublished. I submit that this is because there are certain problems with Nabil's treatment of Baha'u'llah's ministry. For one thing, I hear there are a number of miracles Nabil ascribes to Baha'u'llah. Therefore, unless there is a stated administrative requirement that harmonization is required for writing Baha'i history, such that *God Passes By* and Balyuzi's *Baha'u'llah, the King of Glory* are sacrosanct and cannot be questioned, I submit that Fadil's later work ought to be published (vols. 4 & 5), beginning with an abridged translation of vols. 4 & 5. In this way, I believe a partial vindication of Fadil is possible and highly desirable. Besides which, we might learn something new about Baha'u'llah. Note that I am not touching the ethical issues here. As Leonard Cohen wrote in one of his songs: *I don't like what happened to my sister.* The same goes for Fadil. So let's at least begin to make use of that part of his work that has not (yet) been impeached. Your thoughts, Ahang, Juan, John, et al? -- Christopher Buck ********************************************************************** * * * * * * * * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est. * * * Carleton University * * * * * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * * * * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * * * * * * * * ********************************************************************** =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 14:09:09 EWT From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: birds warbling To: talisman@indiana.edu We have Robert singing out on a limb by himself and Derek carrying on like a crazed hoopoe bird. I will check with my love bird and see if either or both could share her cage with her. Robert, the entire foundation of the Baha'i Faith is not going to fall if the Baha'is follow the logic of Darwin's theory. The Baha'i Faith is not built on a brief statement by Abdu'l Baha during a talk on the nature of man. If you are going to limit yourself in this way, what other restrictions are you going to put on yourself? Is the goal of the Baha'i Faith to see the world as narrowly as possible? And if we cannot apply the teaching about the harmony of science and religion to evolutionary theory, then, pray tell, where can we apply it? I believe that weeks ago Burl noted that I had placed an order with Derek for Burl'l book. It is now December 18 and the book still has not arrived. I know that it is a very long walk for Derek from Bosch to the post office (no doubt the walk does him a world of good), but I am now wondering if he does not make enough trips to the post office. If Derek had more errands of this nature to run, he might not have as much time to torment certain victimized individuals on Talisman. I suggest that, as a Talisman project, we think of errands to occupy Derek's excessive amount of free time. In the meantime, he might send the music to "Why are we Waiting?" or whatever that little ditty is. I realize now that I was humming the wrong tune. My tap dance went to the tune of Why Was I Born Too Late. However, now I realize that I made a grievous error. Please send the music Derek, but not "Chapter 2." Linda =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 14:21:23 EWT From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: religious images To: talisman@indiana.edu John's posting on Fadil and his writings on the Babis made great sense to me. There is a continual struggle in the religions with which I am familiar for control of the image that the religion wishes to project. I have some difficulty, though not nearly to the extent that John, Juan, Todd, and others have, in doing anthropoligical work among the Shi'a because the more learned Shi'a don't want the world to think that the extreme "irrational" aspects of Shi'ism are really present in the world today. They prefer to present an image of Islam (and Shi'ism) as being very legalistic, rational, and in harmony with modern life. For me to explore other aspects of the religion makes them a tad nervous. However, they don't try to stop me. They just expresss exasperation that I persist in speaking to the "wrong" people. My feeling is that the Baha'i Faith won't really gain "respectability" until we are allowed to explore all aspects of the Babi and Baha'i religions and present them as openly as we would any other body of material. I have watched scholars become Muslims even though they are exploring this religion using "cold" Western scientific methodology in their studies. This type of writing is not going to harm the Faith. It will deepen and broaden it. Right now, it is stuck in a groove and, alas, is appearing to be a bit naive. I hope that Talisman's success is to open the doors for all sorts of new understandings. Linda =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:59:35 -0500 (EST) From: Richard Vernon Hollinger To: Christopher Buck Cc: Ahang Rabbani , talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Zuhur'l-Haqq and Encyclopedia > Ahang writes: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > This makes Shoghi Effendi all upset with Zuhuru'l-Haqq as he > didn't like anything that deviated by a dot from the Dawnbreakers. > So on 15 September 1932, he writes (my inadequate translation): > > "Immediately organize a special committee to investigate, > reorganize and bring into conformity Jinab-i Fadil's history > with that of Nabil's history [the Dawnbreakers]. Of this > task and grave responsibility, no delay is permitted, and > utmost effort must be diligently exerted." I would very much like to more about the situation that gave rise to this letter. There are so many variant versions of the story about the demise of this work, that it is more than a little difficult to sort out what the purpose of this was. One person, who has seen unpublished correspondence from Shoghi Effendi and others relating to this event, has assrted to me that the Guardian was concerned that Fadil had collected copies of tablets and historical materials without making any efforts to authenticate them and without gathering sufficient information about their provenance. In other words, he did not want such materials published without some critical analysis of their origins. Using the Dawn Breakers as a standard for authentification of historical materials, while hardly scholarly or scientific, may have been seen as a way of keeping the project alive rather than suppressing it. Such a possibility seems to be more consistent with the other actions of Shoghi Effendi. For example, while he obviously held Nabil's Narrative in high esteem and used it heavily in his own writings, it was at his instructions that memoirs of companions of Baha'u'llah be collected, Now, it is inconceivable that these memoirs would be in agreement with Nabil's Narrative on every point, yet in at least one instance (the memoirs of Ashchi, Baha'u'llah's cook), he commissioned an English translation, presumeably to make it available to Western Baha'is. He also, as is well-known, directed that histories and memoirs be written about Baha'i communities around the world. Consequently, the obvious reading of the letter translated by Ahang, seems out-of-character, unless we are missing a critical part of the story. Richard =END= Date: 18 Dec 95 15:25:27 EST From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com> To: Subject: Talisman Mysticism Conference Call Dear Talismanians, A warm Talis-welcome to Anton, Paul, Steve, Peter and to Bill Collins. I would appeal to other lurkers to introduce themselves, too. The time draws nigh for the long-awaited Talisman Mysticism Conference (Bosch Baha'i School, February 23-25, 1996 -- Register Now! or fall hopeless into error and loss), and those who have chosen to help out with its structure and form will convene this week on a conference call. We will speak with each other on Thursday the 21st, and I'll take suggestions now as to the time of day most convenient for most conveners. Bosch program wiz and Hobbesian ABM Marsha Gilpatrick will join us in our deliberations. Nima, Luanne, Juan, Steve, Terry, and all others on the agenda for the conference -- you might want to think a bit in advance as to how the agenda might aspire to or flee from structure, and what you'd recommend. Anyone else who plans to attend the conference would be most welcome on the call -- Irfan Republic at work, right before our very eyes. Please call me at 1-800-950-2647, extension 720 during business hours PST, or at home -- 310-326-8900 -- at all other odd hours of the day and night if you wish to be included on the call. E-mail would work, too. Love, David p.s. A rumour persists that the Carmels will appear in concert there -- any mystical truth to that one? =END= From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 14:11:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: Teaching Christians To: talisman@indiana.edu Dear Robert, Robert Johnson: "Any intellectual position that is not moderate is untrue." Dann May: Including this one? RJ: The Darwinistic viewpoint expresses itself in anti-religious forms. DM:It doesn t necessarily have to, see process philosophy. RJ: Dann, Robert S and Linda (et al) express their positions on evolution in extreme ways. That is: if yer not with Darwin yer a fundamentalist and think the world was made in seven days. DM: I think you have misread me. I didn't state my extreme allegiance in Darwinism, almost no philosopher or scientist does. Modern evolutionary theory has moved considerably past Darwin's original theory. I suggested that the universe is in process -- is dynamic, evolving, and ever-changing -- and also suggested that process philosophy and theology might come to our aid in understanding Abdu'l-Baha's remarks on evolution. Henri Bergson (1859-1941), a French philosopher, was writing on the subject at about the same time as Abdu'l-Baha, and Jack McLean tells me that they even met. Bergson was one of the most popular and often read philosophers of his day. He inspired such thinkers as Alfred Whitehead, Gabriel Marcel, Jacques Maritain, and won acclaim from the American philosophers John Dewey and William James, as well as considerable praise from Carl Jung. The Nobel laureate in chemistry Ilya Prigogine credits Bergson as a great influence on his own work in oscillating chemical reactions (see _Order out of Chaos: Man s New Dialogue with Nature_, 1984). Bergson was a critic of two extremes in the then current evolutionary debate: one being neo-Darwinism, especially mechanistic explanations of evolution, the other, neo-Lamarkian theories. In other words, he criticized both mechanistic and teleological theories, and offered what he thought was a more tenable alternative. Bergson argues in _Creative Evolution_ (1911), that matter embodies or contains within in itself what he calls _elan vital_, "the vital impetus" or "principle," "the life force" or life potentiality that "drives" or gives rise to the very emergence of life on this planet. This vital principle also impels the evolutionary process to unfold all of its potentiality in the rich and varied diversity of living creatures we now see around us. Bergson goes on to argue that consciousness was always a potentiality within the elan vital and this is what drove the evolutionary process to eventually bring forth human beings. This might be one way to interpret Abdu'l-Baha's remarks about "man always being man." In other words, if consciousness is one of our distinguishing features (what makes us human), then we could say that we were always potentially present in the universe, like the genetic encoding of the mature oak tree in the seed, to use Aristotle's example. The oak tree, like human beings, must pass through many stages before becoming the mature acorn bearing tree -- but in some profound sense, the mature tree is always "present" in the seed and in the process, just as human beings could be seen to be always "present" in the evolutionary process, and in fact being part of the impetus for the process. Bergson specialist Pete Gunter (one of my professors at the University of North Texas) writes: "The evolutionary impetus, as Bergson describes it, contains within itself an infinity of potentialities, but in a state of mutual interpenetration. Through its interaction with matter, however, this impetus has divided in three main directions: the plants, which exist in vegetative stupor; the arthropods (insects, spiders, crabs, etc.) whose mode of life is instinctive; and the vertebrates (whose _modus vivendi_ is "intelligence") culminating in the higher primates and man ("Introduction to the UPA Edition" of _Creative Evolution_, pp. xxxiii-iv). While Bergson is usually labeled as an "emergent naturalist," his ideas can be modified to include a more theistic or religious approach. For example, the elan vital could be seen as the life force (or spirit) that "God" places in the very core of all matter -- at the heart of every atom or subatomic particle, or alternatively, it is the process by which God "begins" the creative act. I await comment, as I feel such ideas have some potential for dealing with the difficult area of `Abdu l-Baha s comments on evolution. PS. A personal note. One reason I never became a Christian was its anti-scientific stand, especially when it came to evolution. The Baha i Faith attracted my attention because Baha is claimed to uphold the theory of evolution as well as the principle of the harmony of science and religion. My training in paleontology and paleoecology (BS and MS degrees from the University of Washington and six years of exploration geology with the Standard Oil Company), however, led me to question the commonly held explanations of Abdu l-Baha s discussion of evolution. Such explanations as well as simplistic readings of Abdu l-Baha simply don t fit very well with modern evolutionary theory, nor with the contributions made in the area of the philosophy of science. Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ. --- * WR 1.32 # 669 * All human beings have an innate urge to know. Aristotle =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:52:12 -0700 (MST) From: Sadra To: "K. Paul Johnson" Cc: theos-l@vnet.net, talisman@indiana.edu Subject: 8? (Re: 7 Returns of Christ) Dear Paul-- You forgot to mention the late sage of Ahmednagar, Meher Baba. As far as I'm aware he claimed to be the latest avataric manifestation of all the prophets. He especially emphasized the christic aspect to his mission. See his "God Speaks," for instance. Regards, Nima --- O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith "In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:01:53 -0800 (PST) From: SAFA SADEGHPOUR Subject: Re: EVOLUTION To: Robert Johnston Cc: talisman@indiana.edu On Mon, 18 Dec 1995, Robert Johnston wrote: > Dear Safa, > > > > >It might be better to present specific arguments against a specific positions > >instead of proclaiming general conditions of truth. > > > One thing that amazes me is the logical inconsistencies of empiricistic > personages. In your above sentence you do what you ask me not to do. Are > you able to see this? If not we can spent more time examining the matter. Dearest Robert, Most appropriate IMO would be not to catagorize people as empiricists or idealists insomuch that these artificial divisions divide us in ways in which we are not intrinsicaly divided. No one is a true empiricist or idealist but everyone has their tendencies. What it adds up to is an ad hominem attack, which I doubt was your intention. We can follow logical hair splittings into saying that the statement that I made above is paradoxical. But, so, also we can follow such hair splittings into making pretty much any statement to become paradoxical. If it's stated, for instance, that truth can only be a non-extreme then the following argument may be proposed: Things can only be false, or true - these being the only two extremes. Therefore, whatever an statement is it will always be an extreme. In other words, every statement is either false or true, both being extremes. Finally, since every statement must be an extreme, therefore every statement, under the logic that truth can only arrive from non-extremes, must not be true . . . which is a contradiction. Therefore, we have nicely arrived to a reductio ad absurdum of the original statement. > > > > > >It is not true that anything that is not moderate is necessarily > >not true. A perfect example might be that of God's existence: Is > >God's existence true, or does He half-exist? Existence or non-existence. . . > >the two extremes are the only options. > > > First of all, what I wrote was : "Any intellectual position that is not > moderate is untrue." A ref. for this: Baha'i Faith is the religion of the > middle way (Shoghi Effendi). The Darwinistic viewpoint expresses itself in Indeed, in many fields it is. But, this is not true when the Faith takes a strong stand against abuse, prejudice, theft, rape, homicide, destruction of books, and many other areas. Abuse is never condoned, nor is the destruction of human life. Then, it cannot be said that the statement that "the Bahai Faith is middle ground" to be rigorous and complete. > anti-religious forms (see letters to Talisman which again seek to devalue > the station of 'Abdu'l-Baha, etc; and Darwin's own works): fundamentalism > expresses itself in anti-scientific forms. These are extreme positions. > To state that God exists is not an immoderate statement. To state that MY > GOD exists and yours doesn't is immoderate. That that is just was these > Darwinists and fundamentalists are doing. They are the flip side of each > other, and not susceptible to rational argumentation. As mentioned in the previous post, I would suggest demonstrating how is Darwinian logic is flawed. It's far better than saying Darwinism is probably not true due to this general thing and the other. Remember, science is inductive at first, and deductive at end. Not the other way around. First, we discover general conditions of truth, then we turn around and use these conditions to test hypotheses. > > God wins the day, brother: moderation is ultimately determined by > relationship to the Word of God. An intellectual position that departs > from the Word of God eventually becomes implicated in immoderation. > > I not longer expect that what I write will have anymore influence than has > a snowball in hell. But it seems that, like the sparrow, I am destined to > sit on the wire and sing, for no apparently good reason... Despair not. We all try to sing while our breath allows us. Sooner or later our rhythms will match, and then our music will be stronger. Until then, we got to practice and try to complement our voices, as hard as that may be. > > Robert. > > > the lost singing -albeit not very well- canary, Safa =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:54:36 -0700 (MST) From: Sadra To: Talisman@indiana.edu Cc: frlw@midway.indiana.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu Subject: Reuters 12/16-17/95 (fwd) > 'IRAN' STORIES >Transmission date: 95/12/17 > 1. 14:05 UAE CRITICISES IRAN OVER DISPUTED ISLANDS > 2. 12:33 IRAN ARRESTS 40 FOR ILLEGAL CURRENCY DEALINGS > 3. 10:39 IRAN SAYS U.S. CAUSING GULF CRISES TO SELL ARMS > 4. 08:37 U.S. CAUSING GULF CRISES TO SELL ARMS, IRAN SAYS > 5. 07:11 IRAN CUTS IMPORTS FROM GULF TO SAVE HARD CURRENCY >Transmission date: 95/12/16 > 6. 01:55 BURST HEROIN CAPSULE KILLS NIGERIAN NATIONAL > >=START= XMT: 14:05 Sun Dec 17 EXP: 14:00 Wed Dec 20 > > > UAE criticises Iran over disputed islands > ABU DHABI, Dec 17 (Reuter) - The United Arab Emirates on Sunday criticised >what it termed Iranian war threats in their dispute over three strategic Gulf >islands. > ``When we raise the voice of peace, Iran raises the voice of war and >threats,'' UAE Foreign Minister Rashid Abdullah al-Nuaimi said in remarks >carried by the official WAM news agency. > He stressed that the UAE favoured a peaceful solution to the dispute with >non-Arab Iran over the islands of Greater Tumb, Lesser Tumb and Abu Musa. The >UAE and its Gulf Arab allies term Iran's presence on the islands as occupation. > ``Every time the UAE calls for a peaceful solution, Iran responds with >threats and is disturbed'' with such calls. ``It responded by saying it fought >eight years (against Iraq) and can fight for 80 years'' over the islands, the >minister said. > He was referring to remarks earlier this month by the Iranian deputy navy >commander, Admiral Abbas Mohtaj. > The dispute flared when Tehran tightened security measures in 1992 on Abu >Musa, an island with several thousand inhabitants near oil shipping lanes at >the mouth of the Gulf, which the two sides had jointly run under a 1971 >agreement. > The UAE responded by reasserting its claim to the Tumbs. > >=END= > >=START= XMT: 12:33 Sun Dec 17 EXP: 12:00 Wed Dec 20 > > > Iran arrests 40 for illegal currency dealings > TEHRAN, Dec 17 (Reuter) - Iranian intelligence ministry officers arrested >40 people for illegal hard currency dealings in Tehran, newspapers said on >Sunday. > The suspects arrested over three days, were charged with ``intending to >disrupt and cause fluctuations in currency markets,'' Ettelaat daily quoted a >ministry statement as saying. > In May, free market hard currency dealings were banned and all such >transactions were ordered to go through state banks. The intelligence ministry >was empowered to deal with violators. > An official rate of 3,000 rials to the dollar was introduced for importers. > Last week, the rial dropped about 10 percent on the illegal market in an >apparent reaction to tougher sanctions approved on Tuesday against Iran by the >U.S. Senate's banking committee. > The rate exceeded 4,000 rials on Wendesday and reached 4,080 on Thursday >when the crackdown started. The black market rate was little changed on Sunday. > >=END= > >=START= XMT: 10:39 Sun Dec 17 EXP: 10:00 Wed Dec 20 > > > Iran says U.S. causing Gulf crises to sell arms > (Adds Khamenei statement, details, pvs NICOSIA) > TEHRAN, Dec 17 (Reuter) - Iran on Sunday accused the United States of >creating artificial crises in the Gulf to justify arms sales to the region. > Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati said that even though the main pretext >for foreign forces in the region -- Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait -- had been >removed, foreign fleets were still carrying out ``provocative military >manoeuvres.'' > Spiritual leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, meanwhile, said the United States >cannot ``do a damn thing'' against Iran. > Velayati, opening a two-day international seminar on the Gulf, said Arab >countries were still spending huge sums on exercises, paying for the dispatch >of U.S. forces to the region. > The official Iranian news agency IRNA said he referred to an unprecedented >rush of foreign forces to the Gulf. > The United States attributed any crisis, rioting or bombs in Gulf littoral >states to Iran, it quoted him saying. > Velayati described an invitation to foreign powers to bring security to the >Gulf as a ``big blunder.'' He said that in an atmosphere of suspicion and >concern, triggered by the military presence of aliens and their intimidating >and divisive policy, regional countries had no option but to get closer to one >another and build confidence among themselves. > Iran's deputy foreign minister for Africa and the Middle East, Hussein >Sheikholeslam, was reported over the weekend as saying for the first time that >Iran was willing to sign a non-aggression treaty with all Gulf states. > ``We are ready to sign a non-aggression treaty with all the countries of >the Gulf to boost security in the region,'' the Qatar daily al-Raya quoted him >saying in a statement. > ``The treaty must also stipulate that the countries of the region do not >support any aggression carried out by one state against another,'' it quoted >him saying, adding that the presence of foreign troops in the region was a >threat to security. > Velayati said the United States was continuing its policy of dual >containment and economic pressure and sanctions on Iran in an effort to impose >its own policies on the Gulf. > Iran was willing to resolve problems and misunderstandings with its >neighbours, who he urged to put aside old enmities and false and chronic >disputes and lay down conditions for friendship and cooperation. > ``The introduction of the new world order in the Persian Gulf region must >coincide with the exit of foreign forces and the removal of their colonialist >bases in the region,'' Iranian television quoted him as saying. > Velayati also pointed to growing Islamic awareness and the assumption of a >new dynamic concept of transnationalism referred to as a ``single Islamic >community.'' > IRNA said political experts from Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon, >Egypt, Jordan, Tunisia, Britain, Germany, the United States, France, China, >Russia and Japan were to present papers at the seminar. > Khamenei, speaking to officers during a visit to an air force college, >said: ``Due to inexperience, rawness and lack of information about humane >realities, American rulers have always failed against (the) Islamic state. > ``As America faced defeat in their conspiracy of economic embargo, from now >on, too, they will not be able to do a damn thing against the mountain of >patience, faith and dynamic talents of the Iranian Moslem nation.'' > >=END= > >=START= XMT: 08:37 Sun Dec 17 EXP: 08:00 Wed Dec 20 > > > U.S. causing Gulf crises to sell arms, Iran says > NICOSIA, Dec 17 (Reuter) - Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati >accused the United States of creating artificial crises in the Gulf to justify >arms sales to the region, Iranian television reported on Sunday. > Even though the main pretext for the presence of foreign forces in the >region -- Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait -- had been removed, foreign fleets >were still carrying out ``provocative military manoeuvres,'' Velayati told a >two-day international seminar on the Gulf. > Arab countries were also continuing to spend huge sums on these exercises, >paying for the dispatch of U.S. forces to the region, he said according to >Iranian television monitored by the BBC. > The United States was continuing its policy of dual containment and >maintaining economic pressure and sanctions on Iran in an effort to impose its >own policies on the Gulf, he said. > Velayati said Iran was willing to resolve problems and misunderstandings >with its neighbours, who he urged to put aside old enmities and false disputes >and lay down conditions for friendship and cooperation. > ``The introduction of the new world order in the Persian Gulf region must >coincide with the exit of foreign forces and the removal of their colonialist >bases in the region,'' he said. > >=END= > >=START= XMT: 07:11 Sun Dec 17 EXP: 07:00 Wed Dec 20 > > > Iran cuts imports from Gulf to save hard currency > By Steven Swindells > DUBAI, Dec 17 (Reuter) - Iran has slashed by nearly a quarter its imports >of hard-currency goods from its main Gulf trading partner Dubai, latest trade >statistics from the emirate's customs department showed on Sunday. > Reduced purchases from the UAE's main port city are signs of Tehran's >policy of limiting non-essential imports so that it can build foreign currency >reserves to meet international debt repayments in 1996, bankers in the region >said. > Re-exports of goods from Dubai to Iran fell to 2.50 billion dirhams ($681 >million) in the first nine months of 1995, 23 percent down from the same period >last year, Dubai officials told Reuters. > Dubai -- trading hub of the United Arab Emirates -- is Iran's main link to >foreign goods, particularly machinery, mechanical appliances, electrical >equipment and textiles, according to the Dubai Chamber of Commerce and >Industry. > U.S. goods, even though banned under U.S. trade sanctions against Iran, >often find their way to the Islamic republic through Dubai, which is just >across the Gulf. > Evidence of lower re-exports from Dubai agrees with estimates by >Tehran-based diplomats who say that Iran's imports from its main trading >partners of Germany, Japan, Britain, Italy and France have fallen by up to half >this year. > By limiting its hard-currency imports, Tehran hopes to be able to meet an >annual debt obligation of between $5 billion and $6 billion, diplomats say. > The Iranian parliament in September voted to ban imports of soft drinks, >chocolate and toys as non-essential goods. > Iran's total financial obligations to foreign countries in the context of >its second five-year plan are $33 billion, of which $17 billion is rescheduled, >according to Central Bank governor Mohsen Nourbakhsh. > Tehran's oil revenue -- Iran is the world's third largest oil exporter >after Saudi Arabia and Norway -- is expected to be just under $16 billion in >the next Iranian financial year which begins in March. > A collapse in the value of the rial against the dollar in May and the >resulting introduction of strict currency controls has also dented Iran's >ability to import goods from Dubai, diplomats say. > Dubai customs statistics show that Iran accounted for 28.6 percent of its >total re-export market between January and September, down from 30.2 percent in >the first six months of the year and 41.7 percent in the first six months of >1994. > Dubai's total re-export trade volume grew to 8.745 billion dirhams in the >first nine months of the year, compared with 7.886 billion dirhams in >January-September 1994, latest figures show. > REUTER > >=END= > >=START= XMT: 01:55 Sat Dec 16 EXP: 01:00 Tue Dec 19 > > > Burst heroin capsule kills Nigerian national > QUETTA, Pakistan, Dec 16 (Reuter) - A Nigerian died in a hotel on the >Pakistan-Iran border when one of several dozen heroin capsules burst in his >stomach, police and hospital sources said on Saturday. > Police said the Nigerian, identified only as Abby-Bwelew, had booked into a >hotel in Taftan in the southwestern province of Balochistan on Thursday evening >because the border was shut. > The next morning his West Indian companion Nash Johnson told the hotel >management Abby-Bwelwe had died in the night. Johnson was arrested as a murder >suspect and Abby-Bwelwe's body was sent to Quetta, the provincial capital, for >an autopsy. > A hospital doctor said the Nigerian had been carrying 82 capsules of heroin >in his stomach, one of which had burst, causing his death. Johnson was also >medically examined but was not found to be carrying drugs. He remained in >detention. > Police said Abby-Bwelew had planned to travel overland to Europe via Iran >and Turkey to avoid airport checks where Nigerians and other Africans are often >searched for drugs. > In another development, customs men seized more than three tonnes of >marijuana concealed in an apple truck at Balily near Quetta on Friday night, a >customs official said. > He said the marijuana had been brought from Afghanistan for shipment to >Europe from Balochistan. The driver and his companions escaped in the dark, the >official added. > Smugglers use Pakistan as a route to transport narcotics produced here and >in neighbouring Afghanistan to markets in Europe, the Gulf and elsewhere. > REUTER > >=END= > > > =END= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:31:44 +1300 (NZDT) To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) Subject: Re: birds warbling Dear Linda, Sparrows chirrup rather than warble. And like William Carlos Williams' red wheel barrow in the rain (your cue David) EVERYTHING depends upon our knowing this... Robert ;-} =END= From: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Subject: A Thought on Faith & Reason... To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:52:15 -0600 (CST) Dear Friends Allah'u'Abha! I have noticed that as Baha'is we tend to want to find a comfortable/stable position to which we can "cling", which frequently involves dismissing a view which seems contradictory to us. I have struggled and continue struggling to balance Faith and Reason. Sometimes this is very hard and uncomfortable. Lately, however, I'm beginning to sense that perhaps this "tension" between the two will propel us to a higher plane of discourse. Rather than "degenerating" to one view or the other of those available, perhaps this "tension" I'm referring to can help to propel us to a novel view; a path which is very difficult (the road less taken, perhaps (g)! I realize that I'm not explaining myself very well, but are there others out there who perhaps have the "sense" of what I'm saying here? Warmest Regards to All! Ken =END= From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: 90s pub stats by language To: "K. Paul Johnson" Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 16:47:35 EST Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, theos-l@vnet.net Followup: checked the OCLC database for books in Arabic and Persian on Baha'i. The totals were 54 and 129 titles, respectively. Taking these numbers in relation to the estimated overall number of titles printed on the Faith in these languages should give a measure of the representativeness of the database. =END= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:57:47 +1300 (NZDT) To: SAFA SADEGHPOUR , talisman@indiana.edu From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) Subject: Re: EVOLUTION Dear Safa, ...the Faith >takes a strong stand against abuse, prejudice, theft, rape, >homicide, destruction of books, and many other areas. Abuse is never >condoned, nor is the destruction of human life. Then, it cannot >be said that the statement that "the Bahai Faith is middle ground" to >be rigorous and complete. When I was a child I went with a friend to collect some shoes from the shoe shop. We went at "morning interval" and arrived back at nearly lunch time. As I recall the weather was wet and miserable. For going away without permission and for coming back late anyway, the teacher strapped our hands with a lump of leather. Our hands, already numb with cold, became agonizingly painful, and we jumped around, our faces contorted like images from hell... Now, I hope I learned something from that experience. If I am to accept from you that Shoghi Effendi was wrong when he said the Faith was the religion of the middle way, then it seems to me that once again I am going with Harltey Collett out into the rain to get a pair of shoes ... You wrote: Remember, science is inductive at first, >and deductive at end. Not the other way around. First, we >discover general conditions of truth, then we turn >around and use these conditions to test hypotheses. If you insist. The standard of truth on all the world of God is the Baha'i Writings... If the Darwinists can prove that 'Abdu'l-Baha was wrong, I'd be very interested... Always your companion in the schoolroom and on the playground, Robert. =END= From: Dave10018@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 17:50:34 -0500 To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz, LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: birds warbling Robert, cues are piling up! As a child I imagined myself one of a group of scientists eons in the future shooting missiles into the sun to keep it going.Admittedly this seems unlikely ever. Also I looked forward to monkeys evolving speech organs and abilities for talk and reason. What then? And why not? I can't for the life of me understand your evolution, though I like you very much. It seems we are all so related, the universe being one thing, that the body is an organ which develops to house (temporarily) the soul. As such, we would expect that the boundary between human life and non-human life is, as examined over time, both indefinite and unknowable. Further, for everything that happens(however "thing" and "happens" be defined) multiple causes operate simultaneously, and can be viewed through both teleological and nonteleological frames.This, it seems, can be derived from the revealed nature of God, fairly simply, as His Names, for instance, the Hidden and the Seen, require it. Scripture may indeed provide some metaphors of use to science, but to reject scientific metaphors and accounts of events or classes of events in toto in favor of deriving explanations from scripture usually leads to error because it means a rejecting of information, and we should never reject information, but just as fundamentally, presents a model which, if successful, would prove believers in possession of the kind of "magical" power which, in this age of maturity, we should --not-- expect to possess. By the same reasoning I expect that even in the Golden Age of the Faith there will be reasonable, even wonderful people who, though exemplary in every way, will not be Baha'is, even in their heart of hearts. And I mean such people as I would not want to be in Heaven without! The other day you said something about people who are not Baha'is lacking something. It made me remember that in my early Baha'i days I heard quaint talk of people being "veiled from the Truth." Humanity being one, it seems to me the only difference between people with faith in Baha'u'llah and others is in the variety of veil covering us. We all have bits and peices of the truth. Necessarily, some of us possess a Name that will increasingly prove central to the Spirit guiding us all, but we go astray in many ways, particularly when we think of truth as something we posess. We become Baha'i for many reasons. How many of us know what we are getting into? How many of the ideas and images that move us come from elewhere? Wish it was summer here. "Well I wish I was On some Australian mountain range. Ain't got no reason to be there But I imagine it would be some kind of change." (Mr. Dylan--Outlaw Blues) your freind who hopes to post more but lacks time dave taylor Again cues are piling up as is, unfortunately, the snow. =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 17:50:14 EWT From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Authenticity of texts To: talisman@indiana.edu In fairness to Fadil, *no* Baha'i scholar in Iran dealt with sources in a way that would be satisfactory to a Western scholar. Ishraq-Khavari's works are full of statements like, "Dar lawhi'st"--"In a tablet is. . . " --with no indication of source. john walbridge =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:30:44 -0800 (PST) From: SAFA SADEGHPOUR Subject: Re: EVOLUTION To: Robert Johnston Cc: talisman@indiana.edu On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Robert Johnston wrote: > Dear Safa, > > ...the Faith > >takes a strong stand against abuse, prejudice, theft, rape, > >homicide, destruction of books, and many other areas. Abuse is never > >condoned, nor is the destruction of human life. Then, it cannot > >be said that the statement that "the Bahai Faith is middle ground" to > >be rigorous and complete. > > When I was a child I went with a friend to collect some shoes from the shoe > shop. We went at "morning interval" and arrived back at nearly lunch > time. As I recall the weather was wet and miserable. For going away > without permission and for coming back late anyway, the teacher strapped > our hands with a lump of leather. Our hands, already numb with cold, > became agonizingly painful, and we jumped around, our faces contorted like > images from hell... Now, I hope I learned something from that experience. > If I am to accept from you that Shoghi Effendi was wrong when he said the > Faith was the religion of the middle way, then it seems to me that once > again I am going with Harltey Collett out into the rain to get a pair of > shoes ... > Dear Robert, I don't know but I keep feeling not a conversation here but a discussion on who wins, faith or reason - science or religion. Everything I say seems to be used to show how weak my faith is, and what that all I say is in some way or another against the true standard of belief. Can't we have a simple minded conversation just trying to find what the truth is instead of trying to prove our point by intricate arguments and such (I am guilty of this as anyone else)? When it is said that a statement is not complete and rigorous this does not imply that the statement is false. A perfect example is that mentioned by Juan some time ago, "The Sun rises." This statement is true if all persons involved understand the specific connotation of it when used in spoken language. If not, one might believe that the person who utters that statement is in total ignorance inasmuch that we know that the Sun doesn't rise per se, but it is us that translate around the Sun. The key here is to see the context, and to follow the connotations carried with a particular sentence. I might be off but it seems that Shoghi Effendi was referring to those things in which the Bahai Faith characterizes itself in being moderate - Harmony of Science and Religion, Equality of rights of men and women, Elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty, and others. But, I doubt that he was denying the KIA where it is stated that a murderer shall receive the death penalty (or a life sentence) (which is quite a harsh punishment). Under this logic and following Juan's concept of Infabillity (if I have not misinterpreted), no statement coming from a Manifestation of God can be complete and rigorous inasmuch that this would deny the principle of Progressive Revelation, the curtains of Divine Emanation would become shut, and the ever-flowing rivers of never-emptying sweetness would come to an end. In other words, there would be nothing left to say. > > You wrote: > > Remember, science is inductive at first, > >and deductive at end. Not the other way around. First, we > >discover general conditions of truth, then we turn > >around and use these conditions to test hypotheses. > > > If you insist. The standard of truth on all the world of God is the Baha'i > Writings... If the Darwinists can prove that 'Abdu'l-Baha was wrong, I'd Would you say that to the next Manifestation of God when she/he proclaims a statement which may seem different from either Darwin or Abdul-Baha? Both scientific and religious truth are relative, but each claim precedence in their own realm of validity. > be very interested... > > Always your companion in the schoolroom and on the playground, > > Robert. > > Take care. your friend in the cold and darkness ;), Safa =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 14:52:01 -0500 From: "Ahang Rabbani" To: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: So, what's wrong with Zuhuru'l-Haqq? [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII] With apologies to all for posting again; I'm on Xmas vacation with too much free time on hand .... besides this subject is too fascinating not to comment, even though I'm aware its of interest to a small segment of Talisman. I think the suggestion of a conspiracy to suppress Zuhuru'l-Haqq might be too strong, or at least there are other factors that must be considered. In 131-132 BE (1975-76), the Iranian publishing trust, printed volume 8 of ZH in two parts (too thick to make a single book). There is an interesting comment in the short introduction that they included. They say, and I paraphrase: since the publication of vol 3 of 9-volume series of Zuhuru'l-Haqq, friends have been anticipating publication of the remaining volumes so they may study and benefit from them. Recently it was learned that vols 8 and 9 are in Iran and accessible, and after securing the permission of the NSA we now present vol 8 with the hope to print vol 9 very shortly. So I don't believe there was a organized campaign to suppress ZH series, since as late as mid 70's the Iranian NSA was supporting its publication. I think a more likely scenario is that the set was no longer in Iran! Perhaps the entire project was shipped to Haifa and that's where it was? I don't know, I'm just guessing. I also think that Richard's theory about authenticity issues of manuscripts and Texts used, is plausible. As such later volumes would perceived "accurate" since these covered the contemporary periods and contained very little Scripture (at least vol 8 is like that). I suspect that the same would be true of vol 9 since it covered the time of the Guardian and its accuracy must have been evident. But what of earlier volumes? I don't think John's theory is really applicable to vol 4-9 since there is almost no mention of the Bab, His Writings and teachings, or the behavior of the Babis in these (I'm obviously extrapolating from vol 4, 6 and 8 to the remaining ones, namely, 5, 7 and 9). Besides, John's theory about unruly Babis and their revolutionary characters (which is all true!) would be most evident in vol 3 when Fadil discussed individual Babi leaders -- and there is very little of this sort of thing in there. Thus, it can't be because of the embarrassing things in there they didn't get published. My father was a student of both Fadil and Ishraq-Khavari (in fact he was an assistant of Fadil for some 8 months transcribing things). If you ask a guy like that what were the ideological differences between the two, he couldn't answer. But, without a hesitation he would say Fadil was much more knowledgeable when it came to Tablets and history, where Ishraq-Khavari knew Islam better. (My dad also once said of these two men: "The *least* developed attribute in them, was their knowledge." At first I was puzzled by this comment, as I thought of these men as great scholars and expected their *knowledge* to be their outstanding character, but then I understood how truly remarkable men they were.) Getting back to the topic, I'm beginning, therefore, to think that the issue was as simple as accuracy and authenticity of the Text. But we will not know the answer for sure until the Guardian's communications are made available on this subject. As for Chris Buck's proposal for translation of an abridged ZH-4 and ZH-5, namely, Baha'u'llah's period, the main problem is that I don't think anyone outside of Haifa has a copy of ZH-5. (Chris, are you holding back? Among us book traders that would the ultimate sin ;-} so, if you got a copy, speak up... at least whisper it in my ear ...) Somebody needs to write to the World Centre and ask for a copy. As part of the proposal to the World Centre, there should be a discussion of verification of any Text used in ZH. I believe that much work has already been done on that in Haifa. At any rate, writing to the World Centre seems to be the next logical step. Chris, if you're interested in the project, which I think is a splendid idea, write to Haifa. regards, ahang. =END= From: Dave10018@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 17:49:24 -0500 To: 72110.2126@compuserve.com, Talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Talisman Mysticism Conference Call I couldn't afford the ticket if I had the time, but as it turns out, at the time of the mysticism conference, i will be in boston at the college art association conference "seeking" to convince some folks from Baltimore or somewhere to let me teach drawing and painting for pay. maybe you all could say a "Hail Mary" or something for me. At any rate the conferences make a sort of symmetry of endeavor. I wish I could be singing and dancing and praying and pontificating and speculating with you, but my path leads to Boston, city of my birth. On another note, in about a week I will post the address for a web-site which will contain a few words and scanned color images of five paintings and a drawing. David Taylor ever behind in his mail =END= From: Dave10018@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:21:24 -0500 To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz, think@ucla.edu, talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: EVOLUTION Robert! You went to a horrible grade school and were terribly mistreated. Really I grieve for you, but you must struggle against such "education," and not try to impose it on us here. As I recall at the same school where you and your friend were given such cruel corporal punishment, you were made to memorize Vachel Lindsay's rhythmic but incredibly racist poem "The Congo(a study of the Negro Race)". with concern, dave taylor =END= From: "Eric D. Pierce" To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:19:10 PST8PDT Subject: Re: infalibility thread request Hi, I forwarded the 46 text file archives that Sen sent me last Spring (end of May 1995). If anyone else has compiled additional extracts from talisman messages since the end of May 1995, please send them on. EP Volume in drive N is SYS Volume Serial Number is EED4-7CD9 Directory of N:\DOCUMENT\PERSONAL\TEMP_SEN\TEMP_ALL\INFALLAB INFAL J22 3,437 10-22-94 10:20a INFALL DOS 4,170 10-24-94 12:37a INFALLB J25 5,860 10-25-94 1:31p INFALL J26 1,543 10-26-94 2:01p INFALL L03 2,739 12-03-94 8:50p INFALL M03 3,764 01-03-95 9:29p INFAL M06 7,097 01-06-95 3:39p INFALL M06 3,095 01-06-95 10:37p INFAL M07 919 01-08-95 6:04p INFAL2 M07 3,462 01-08-95 6:12p INFAL3 M07 1,477 01-08-95 6:14p INFAL2 M10 2,504 01-10-95 10:01a INFAL4 M10 1,042 01-10-95 10:05a INFAL6 M10 2,426 01-10-95 10:11a INFAL7 M10 5,954 01-10-95 10:14a INFALLZ M10 3,603 01-10-95 3:46p INFAL2 O03 4,729 03-03-95 5:10p INFAL 5C 6,776 03-03-95 10:08p INFALL5 O03 6,994 03-03-95 10:30p INFALL4 O03 3,128 03-03-95 10:33p INFAL1 O04 2,505 03-04-95 8:03p INFAL8 O04 6,412 03-04-95 8:03p INFAL1 O05 10,510 03-05-95 10:58p INFAL2 O05 14,750 03-05-95 11:00p INFAL3 O05 1,605 03-05-95 11:01p INFAL6 O05 2,797 03-05-95 11:08p INFAL7 O05 5,070 03-05-95 11:10p INFAL0 O05 7,665 03-05-95 11:11p INFAL2 O06 5,942 03-06-95 7:12p INFAL7 O06 3,344 03-06-95 7:22p INFAL1 O07 3,158 03-07-95 7:56a INFAL3 O07 2,066 03-07-95 7:58a INFAL10 O07 2,866 03-07-95 11:47a INFAL20 O07 10,481 03-07-95 10:22p INFAL2 O13 1,493 03-13-95 7:47p INFAL 5C2 2,671 03-14-95 1:40p INFAL4 O15 12,774 03-15-95 3:00p INFAL 5C3 787 03-16-95 11:46a INFAL4 O18 2,833 03-18-95 1:55p INFAL2 O18 2,880 03-18-95 2:28p INFAL3 O29 1,422 03-29-95 11:20a INFAL1 O30 2,801 03-30-95 12:45p INFAL O31 11,494 03-31-95 7:09p INFAL P06 2,454 04-06-95 10:16a INFAL 5E1 6,373 05-02-95 9:32p INFAL 5E4 8,423 05-30-95 11:06p DIR DIR 0 10-09-95 1:03p 47 file(s) 210,295 bytes 80,314,368 bytes free > From: Peter_Tamas@bcon.com (Peter Tamas) > Send reply to: Peter_Tamas@bcon.com > To: talisman@indiana.edu > Subject: infalibility thread request > Date sent: 17 Dec 1995 19:13:43 GMT > Organization: BCON > I've been a wall flower on the list for about four months and would like to > take a run at the infallibility question. Rather than begin with my partial > collection of posts on the thread, I'd like to have the whole picture before > I opened my ignorant mouth. So, if anybody has archived this thread > (infalibility of the House of Justice) I'd appreciate a copy. > > Please don't expect quick turn around..I've done a bunch of this sort of > stuff at school and it generally takes me a while to come up with a > reasonable set of questions. > > thanks > > -Peter Tamas > =END= From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 17:33:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: ZUHURU'L-HAQQ -- NSA To: talisman@indiana.edu Chrs Buck wrote: I submit that Fadil's later work ought to be published (vols. 4 & 5), beginning with an abridged translation of vols. 4 & 5. I second this proposal both for its intellectual and historical significance and as as way of providing some justice in this unfortunate affair. Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ. --- * WR 1.32 # 669 * Old musicians never die, they just decompose. =END= From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 17:33:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: Teaching Christians To: talisman@indiana.edu I am sorry for posting this twice, but in my offline reader it is very easy to end up putting the wrong subject header on my posts. My original post listed the subject as Teaching Christians which I felt might not be read by the appropriate parties. Dear Robert, Robert Johnson: "Any intellectual position that is not moderate is untrue." Dann May: Including this one? RJ: The Darwinistic viewpoint expresses itself in anti-religious forms. DM: It doesn t necessarily have to, see process philosophy. RJ: Dann, Robert S and Linda (et al) express their positions on evolution in extreme ways. That is: if yer not with Darwin yer a fundamentalist and think the world was made in seven days. DM: I think you have misread me. I didn't state my extreme allegiance in Darwinism, almost no philosopher or scientist does. Modern evolutionary theory has moved considerably past Darwin's original theory. I argued that the universe is in process -- is dynamic, evolving, and ever-changing -- and suggested that process philosophy and theology might come to our aid in understanding Abdu'l-Baha's remarks on evolution. Henri Bergson (1859-1941), a French philosopher, was writing on the subject at about the same time as Abdu'l-Baha, and Jack McLean tells me that they even met. Bergson was one of the most popular and often read philosophers of his day. He inspired such thinkers as Alfred Whitehead, Gabriel Marcel, Jacques Maritain, and won acclaim from the American philosophers John Dewey and William James, as well as considerable praise from Carl Jung. The Nobel laureate in chemistry Ilya Prigogine credits Bergson as a great influence on his own work in oscillating chemical reactions (see _Order out of Chaos: Man s New Dialogue with Nature_, 1984). Bergson was a critic of two extremes in the then current evolutionary debate: one being neo-Darwinism, especially mechanistic explanations of evolution, the other, neo-Lamarkian theories. In other words, he criticized both mechanistic and teleological theories, and offered what he thought was a more tenable alternative. Bergson argues in _Creative Evolution_ (1911), that matter embodies or contains within in itself what he calls _elan vital_, "the vital impetus" or "principle," "the life force" or life potentiality that "drives" or gives rise to the very emergence of life on this planet. This vital principle also impels the evolutionary process to unfold all of its potentiality in the rich and varied diversity of living creatures we now see around us. Bergson goes on to argue that consciousness was always a potentiality within the elan vital and this is what drove the evolutionary process to eventually bring forth human beings. This might be one way to interpret Abdu'l-Baha's remarks about "man always being man." In other words, if consciousness is one of our distinguishing features (what makes us human), then we could say that we were always potentially present in the universe, like the genetic encoding of the mature oak tree in the seed, to use Aristotle's example. The oak tree, like human beings, must pass through many stages before becoming the mature acorn bearing tree -- but in some profound sense, the mature tree is always "present" in the seed and in the process, just as human beings could be seen to be always "present" in the evolutionary process, and in fact being part of the impetus for the process. Bergson specialist Pete Gunter (one of my professors at the University of North Texas) writes: "The evolutionary impetus, as Bergson describes it, contains within itself an infinity of potentialities, but in a state of mutual interpenetration. Through its interaction with matter, however, this impetus has divided in three main directions: the plants, which exist in vegetative stupor; the arthropods (insects, spiders, crabs, etc.) whose mode of life is instinctive; and the vertebrates (whose _modus vivendi_ is "intelligence") culminat ing in the higher primates and man ("Introduction to the UPA Edition" of _Creative Evolution_, pp. xxxiii-iv). While Bergson is usually labeled as an "emergent naturalist," his ideas can be modified to include a more theistic or religious approach. For example, the elan vital could be seen as the life force (or spirit) that "God" places in the very core of all matter -- at the heart of every atom or subatomic particle, or alternatively, it is the process by which God "begins" the creative act. I await comment, as I feel such ideas have some potential for dealing with the difficult area of `Abdu l-Baha s comments about evolution. PS. A personal note. One reason I never became a Christian was its anti-scientific stand, especially when it came to evolution. The Baha i Faith attracted my attention because Baha is claimed to uphold the theory of evolution as well as the principle of the harmony of science and religion. My training in paleontology and paleoecology (BS and MS degrees from the University of Washington and six years of exploration geology with the Standard Oil Company), however, led me to question the commonly held explana tions of Abdu l-Baha s discussion of evolution. Such explanations as well as simplistic readings of Abdu l-Baha simply don t fit very well with modern evolutionary theory, nor with the contributions made in the area of the philosophy of science. Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ. --- * WR 1.32 # 669 * All human beings have an innate urge to know. Aristotle =END= From: "Mark A. Foster" Subject: Lay Baha`is? To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:03:17 -0600 (CST) To: talisman@indiana.edu Talismanians - A posting today which referred to *"lay Baha'is"* and criticized such individuals for interfering with certain expressions of academic Baha'i scholarship disturbed me greatly. As an academic who has done some research related to the Faith, I have no desire to be considered a *professional Baha'i*, whatever that might be, and, personally, would never choose to refer to any of my fellow believers as *"lay Baha'is."* A concern I and others have periodically had is that there may be an attempt to bring about a certain type of Baha'i intellectual hegemony. Postings like the one we saw today renewed this concern in my mind. In the Baha'i community, there are *no professional Baha'is*, in the sense of a career clergy who are authorized to act as interpreters or expounders of the text to other believers, and, thus, there can be *no* *"lay Baha'is."* Regards to all, Mark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) * *President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society * *Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality * *Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society * *Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College * * 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. * *Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) * *Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) * *Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); * * 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);* * Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); * * RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ___ * UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity =END= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:17:44 +1300 (NZDT) To: Dave10018@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) Subject: Re: EVOLUTION Dear Dave, With friends like you who needs enemies!! ;-} Couldn't you find something nice -- even if untrue -- to say about me, just as Juan was able to about John this morning. C'mon buddy, I NEED yer support here! Robert (sparrow squawking to buckshot) Johnston... =END= From: "Mark A. Foster" Subject: Lay Baha`is? To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:42:43 -0600 (CST) To: talisman@indiana.edu Talismanians - A posting today which referred to *"lay Baha'is"* and criticized such individuals for interfering with certain expressions of academic Baha'i scholarship disturbed me greatly. As an academic who has done some research related to the Faith, I have no desire to be considered a *professional Baha'i*, whatever that might be, and, personally, would never choose to refer to any of my fellow believers as *"lay Baha'is."* A concern I and others have periodically had is that there may be an attempt to bring about a certain type of Baha'i intellectual hegemony. Postings like the one we saw today renewed this concern in my mind. In the Baha'i community, there are *no professional Baha'is*, in the sense of a career clergy who are authorized to act as interpreters or expounders of the text to other believers, and, thus, there can be *no* *"lay Baha'is."* Regards to all, Mark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) * *President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society * *Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality * *Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society * *Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College * * 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. * *Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) * *Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) * *Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); * * 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);* * Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); * * RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ___ * UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity =END= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:54:35 +1300 (NZDT) To: talisman@indiana.edu From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) Subject: evolution & Socrates misc. (longish) Ffolks, Against my better judgement I have decided to respond to some of these postings on evolution and Socrates. Ken Seiden wrote: "I guess I see this point coming up again and again among Baha'is, that is: physically humans resemble animals but their line was distinct all along... I just want to say that in terms of the natural sciences, I can see no way whatsoever of making this a meaningful statement." The analogy that 'Abdu'l-Baha gives on the development of the embryo in the womb warrants greater attention I think. From something so frail and microscopic...to something eternal and universal. Think about it. Then tell me what views the natural sciences support... "A variation on the separateness of humans theme is to point out how distinct humans are in terms of their non-physical qualities; that is, physically humans resemble animals, but "spiritually" they are distinct and have been all along. The "hard" response from your average biologist will be that what distinguishes humans is their sophisticated brain, which incidentally, evolved physically along with the rest of the body." Of course. The empiricist cannot prove the existence of God, nor the existence of the soul. Other forms of proof are required. Of course the empiricist thinks that with a slide rule and microscope he will get to the bottom of anything... This is a Faustian fantasy, pure and simple. Empiricism does not define the scope of science.. Robert Stockman wrote: "Obviously, scientists would be very uncomfortable with the theoretical and untestable notion that individual amoeba X had a soul and her brother amoeba Y did not. So we must remember that this idea exists and makes sense only in the realms of theology, not in the realm of science. We can hardly fault Darwin for that. " Again: scientists have trouyble with the soul anyway, and if we are to accept the Baha'i view that the soul is attracted to the body at conception, then it is not to hard to accept that the original "amoeba" (like a fertilised egg) had a soul... We really have to develop our powers of vision... "Another interesting implication of `Abdu'l-Baha's theory is that it turns the usual popular conception of evolution on its head: evolution was not the ascent of man, but the descent of everything else from man. Strange." Please explain. Ken again: "It is not clear to me that empiricism (in the tradition of Hume) and empirical validation (i.e. validation by repeated experience of multiple individuals) are the same...I believe the latter is fully consistent with the principles of the Faith." Empiricist and popular verification requirements are absurd. The most important existences leave no sensible trace, and their reality is generally repudiated. Take prophetic dreams for instance... Only among the illumined are these verified, and not by empirical means. Yet the illumined consider their deliberations scientific, and the existences discussed real... John Walbridge wrote (re. esp. the Socrates matter): "They [the Founders of the Faith] did not purport to teach about evolutionary biology, subatomic physics, the history of philosophy, or whatever. If we try to read them as though that is what they were doing, the results will be silly." Not so. Please carefully read the following by 'Abdu'l-Baha. In came with the other material from the Research Dept. By inference, it becomes clear -- as Sandy Fotos has pointed out -- that the scientific component of the Writings cannot be lightly dismissed. (I particularly draw your attention to "Nevertheless, Holy Writ is authoritative, and with it no history of the world can compare, for experience hath shown that after investigation of the facts and a thorough study of ancient records and corroborative evidence, all have referred back to the Holy Scriptures. The most important thing is to establish the validity of God's universal Manifestation; once His claim proveth true, then whatsoever He may choose to say is right and correct."): "From the Tablets and Utterances of 'Abdu'l-Baha As to what thou didst ask regarding the history of the philosophers: history, prior to Alexander of Greece, is extremely confused, for it is a fact that only after Alexander did history become an orderly and systematized discipline. One cannot, for this reason, rely upon traditions and reported historical events that have come down from before the days of Alexander. This is a matter thoroughly established, in the view of all authoritative historians. How many a historical account was taken as fact in the eighteenth century, yet the opposite was proved true in the nineteenth. No reliance, then, can be placed upon the traditions and reports of historians which antedate Alexander, not even with regard to ascertaining the lifetimes of leading individuals. Wherefore ye should not be surprised that the Tablet of Wisdom is in conflict with the historical accounts. It behoveth one to reflect a while on the great diversity of opinion among the historians, and their contradictory accounts; for the historians of East and West are much at odds, and the Tablet of Wisdom was written in accordance with certain histories of the East. Furthermore, the Torah, held to be the most ancient of histories, existeth today in three separate versions: the Hebrew, considered authentic by the Jews and the Protestant clergy; the Greek Septuagint, which is used as authoritative in the Greek and other Eastern churches; and the Samaritan Torah, the standard authority for that people. These three versions differ greatly, one from another, even with regard to the lifetimes of the most celebrated figures. In the Hebrew Torah, it is recorded that from Noah's flood until the birth of Abraham there was an interval of two hundred and ninety-two years. In the Greek, that time-span is given as one thousand and seventy-two years, while in the Samaritan, the recorded span is nine hundred and forty-two years. Refer to the commentary by Henry Westcott,[l] for tables are supplied therein which show the discrepancies among the three Torahs as to the birthdates of a number of the descendants of Shem, and thou wilt see how greatly the versions differ one from another. Moreover, according to the text of the Hebrew Torah, from the creation of Adam until Noah's flood the elapsed time is recorded as one thousand six hundred and fifty-six years, while in the Greek Torah the interval is given as two thousand two hundred and sixty-two years, and in the Samaritan text, the same period is said to have lasted one thousand three hundred and seven years. Reflect thou now over the discrepancies among these three Torahs. The case is indeed surprising. The Jews and Protestants belittle the Greek Torah, while to the Greeks, the Hebrew version is spurious, and the Samaritans deny both the Hebrew and the Greek versions. Our purpose is to show that even in Scriptural history, the most out standing of all histories, there are contradictions as to the time when the great ones lived, let alone as to dates related to others. And furthermore, learned societies in Europe are continually revising the existing records, both of East and West. In spite of this, how can the confused accounts of peoples dating from before Alexander be compared with the Holy Text of God? If any scholar expresses astonishment, let him be surprised at the discrepancies in Scriptural history. Nevertheless, Holy Writ is authoritative, and with it no history of the world can compare, for experience hath shown that after investigation of the facts and a thorough study of ancient records and corroborative evidence, all have referred back to the Holy Scriptures. The most important thing is to establish the validity of God's universal Manifestation; once His claim proveth true, then whatsoever He may choose to say is right and correct. The histories prior to Alexander, which were based on oral accounts current among the people, were put together later on. There are great discrepancies among them, and certainly they can never hold their own against Holy Writ. It is an accepted fact among historians themselves that these histories were compiled after Alexander, and that prior to his time history was transmitted by word of mouth. Note how extremely confused was the history of Greece, so much so that to this day there is no agreement on the dates related to the life of Homer, Greece's far-famed poet. Some even maintain that Homer never existed at all, and that the name is a fabrication. (From a Tablet, translated from the Persian) . [1. The English equivalent of this name written in Persian by 'Abdu'l-Baha is not certain.]" You (John) continue: "On a related matter, I read Robert's letter from the Research Dept. on Socrates as saying that it was a matter to be explained in terms of the Islamic traditions about Socrates, which is what I have been saying. The whole issue is laid out in great detail in the book by Ilai Alon that they cite. The only novelty of the Baha'i texts is that accounts refering originally to Empedocles have been assimilated with the Socrates tradition." Again, this is not (IMHO) a fair representation of what was stated in the letter. I particularly draw your attention to the following: "To date, we have no documentary evidence to support the Master's statement concerning what is "recorded in eastern histories" about Socrates' visiting the Holy Land [11]. Baha'is accept the "authority [of 'Abdu'l-Baha] on this matter" [13], since we believe that He had "an intuitive knowledge" [13] and since He affirmed the source of the report [4]." Dann May wrote: "Dear Linda, As a former geologist with six years of training as a paleontologist, I second your remarks. The universe as seen through the lens of the [Darwinist] evolutionary process is truly grand and exciting." I fail to see why the Baha'i account is less exciting. Dann also wrote: "I for one am glad to be free from the shackles of the fundamentalist approach to science." Are you saying that the account given by 'Abdu'l-Baha in SAQ is fundamentalist? Dann also wrote: "I've always thought the Baha'i discussion of evolution could benefit from the insights found in process philosophy and theology, especially the work of Henri Bergson, Alfred North Whitehead and Charles Hartsworne. Bergson's _Creative Evolution_ is especially good, IMO, in dealing with Abdul-Baha's comments about evolution. " Are you able to elucidate? Tony wrote: "It does seem odd to me that Baha'is would insist on limiting 'Abdu'l-Baha's remarks on evolution to a short scientific essay, while ignoring their much more profound theological content. After all, as a scientific treatise, the chapter in Some Answered Questions is not very interesting or helpful. " I don't agree. But my definition of science is much broader than the definitions given by others. Maybe Baha'is have problems with the fact that 'Abdu'l-Baha was able to solve this riddle so simply.... But really, it such a minor riddle isn't it? Compared with the riddles associated with harmonising human relationships... And every day we have to attend to these riddles. Philip wrote, "Finally, these godless Darwinists you've been talking to really represent only a portion of the Darwinists in the world, many of whom imagine God is ways you might find acceptable." Why not stick with 'Abdu'l-Baha? Juan wrote: "I have Keven Brown's permission to post a comment he recently made about `Abdu'l-Baha's statement that the human "species" always existed. Keven and I agree that by "species" he did not intend the modern biological concept. Rather, he meant the sublunar reflected `species' (naw`) governed by the Platonic Form or Idea of humanity. " Only in modern materialistic/empiricist thought are these two split and lacking reconciliation. "I have suggested before that the Master believed that the Platonic Form or Idea of humanity is reflected in whatever actually-existing earthly species has attained the most complex neurological development at any one time. Its specific biological form is irrelevant. " This viewpoint would seem to fails to adequately address the ontological reality of a rational soul. Further, do you recall that the Guardian said that human soul is attracted to the body at conception? Juan also wrote: "Of course, all this is only put forward tentatively and awaits the imprimatur of our foremost living Baha'i philosopher and Suhrawardi expert, John Walbridge." No comment Well that's it, Robert. =END= From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck) Subject: Re: 90s pub stats by language To: pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu (K. Paul Johnson) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 20:06:27 EST Cc: pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu, talisman@indiana.edu, theos-l@vnet.net Dear Paul: Thanks for your interesting and instructive bibliographic posts. They complement Seena Fazel's citation studies. For us neophytes, could you tell us how one accesses the OCLC database? Thanks! -- Christopher Buck ********************************************************************** * * * * * * * * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est. * * * Carleton University * * * * * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * * * * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * * * * * * * * ********************************************************************** =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 17:02:23 -0800 From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT ) Subject: 90's Publishing Stats by Language 1 A First for the Baha'i Faith To: talisman@indiana.edu Dear Talismanians I thought I would try and get the actual figures by Language this is not a reflection on Paul , as I know in many cases the Institutions in some countries are not so developed as to provide information on Publishing . The situation in Russia was reported as Zero for Baha'i . According to their NSA Secretary today : 40 titles in Russian all published in the 90's . I believe that makes us first in Russian . I am sure the Spanish and German figures are wrong and may be the French as well . I hope to have the correct ones soon . Kindest Regards Derek Cockshut =END= From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck) Subject: Re: *Gospel Harmony* To: Talisman@indiana.edu Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 20:29:19 EST Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck) Philip privately granted his permission for me to post this reply on Talisman. (Philip, do want to post the letter you sent to me but intended for Talisman as well?) -- Christopher Buck Christopher Buck writes: > From cbuck Mon Dec 18 13:26:45 1995 > From: cbuck (Christopher Buck) > Message-Id: <9512181827.AA00610@superior> > Subject: Re: Zuhur'l-Haqq and Encyclopedia > To: belove@sover.net > Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 13:27:57 EST > Cc: cbuck (Christopher Buck) > In-Reply-To: ; from "belove@sover. net" at Dec 18, 95 8:43 am > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] > > Dear Philip: 18 December 1995 > > With the visual dimension of e-mail communication missing, it was > not possible to display where my tongue was when I suggested that there > were some deliberate attempts at harmonization in writing Baha'i history. > My tongue was of course, *Tongue-in-Cheek*. > > So as not to appear *cheeky* and run counter to an Baha'i > Administrative position, I tried to argue around the Guardian's directive > which Ahang had translated. In that sense, I differ from Juan's style of > reform. I am the quintessential Canadian in trying to seek the *great > Canadian compromise*. > > I want to say that I perfectly agree with your concerns. My > strategy is less principled than Juan's. I try, usually unsuccessfully, to > try to work around administrative barriers by engaging in Baha'i > discourse, which is a different discourse than academics. It all comes of > trying to wear two hats at the same time. I encourage you to express these > views of yours on Talisman. They are important considerations. > > Regards, > > -- Christopher Buck > > ********************************************************************** > * * * * * * > * * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est. > * * * Carleton University * * * > * * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * * > * * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * * > * * * * * * > ********************************************************************** > > ********************************************************************** * * * * * * * * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est. * * * Carleton University * * * * * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * * * * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * * * * * * * * ********************************************************************** =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 19:02:09 -0700 (MST) From: "[G. Brent Poirier]" To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT Cc: talisman@indiana.edu Subject: Re: infallability (2pgs.) On the 7 stages of infallibility: > 1) Divinity; Baha'u'llah?? > 2) Lordship; Bab?? (see page 86 Prayers and Meditations by > Bahau'llah) > 3) Prophethood; (Moses? Jesus? Muhammad? Buddha? Krishna? etc. > these are Prophets endowed with Constancy; Lawgivers, Legislator > Prophets ) > 4) Messengership; e.g. The lesser Prophets of the House of Israel? > examples; Isaah? Daniel, Jeremiah etc. > 5)Guardianship; (Shoghi Effendi?) > 6)Apostleship; (The Twelve Imams of the Islamic Dispensation?) > and possibly John the Writer of the Revelation of St. John?? Not sure > about John. > 7) Servitude; Question: Mr. Wootten is unable to make any reference > or give examples on this rank and is asking for further > assistance of those who may know. while I like this analysis of the hierarchy as applied to different stations of beings, I have found that in the Bible most of these stations are specifically applied to Christ -- in fact, all except Guardianship. References if you like. > obeyed, unquestioningly. Another example is the Institution of the > Hands of the Cause of God, during the period between 1957-63 where > there was no Guardianship the Institution as a Body enjoyed derived > infallability pursuing their divinely stipulated duties in the Aqdas. > Therefore they had the derived infallability to officially convoce > the election of the Universal House of Justice in 1963. The institutions which possess infallibility are specifically identified as such in the Sacred Texts, and while I love this posting, this is a point on which I wish to express my view; I'm surely willing and open to changing my views. First, the Hands themselves never claimed infallibility. Second, in its first message to the Baha'i world after its election, the House stated that the Cause faced "appalling dangers" during the time of the Hands. Third, in the compilation on the Continental Counsellors, there is a letter in which several passages from Shoghi Effendi on the Institution of the Learned are translated (the only source I know for some of them). The House comments on these, and in one of these there is a rather plain disavowal of the infallibility of the Hands. Finally, I agree that the timing of the election of the House was divinely guided. There are a multitude of other examples of the guidance the Hands received during their Stewardship; but there is in the Text no guarantee of such guidance in every action. Nevertheless, all should have turned their eyes towards the Hands, and the believers of today should have love and gratitude for the Stewardship of the Hands. Their rising to the occasion at a time of not only grief, but sometimes profound doubt, is an astonishing event in religious history and a proof of their station. In the words of the House, the Hands brought the ship of the Cause safely to port, i.e., delivered the Cause of God faithfully into the hands of the Universal House of Justice in 1963. My own view is that it is no less important to not expand on the powers of infallibility granted in the Sacred Texts, than it is to not whittle down those powers which have been provided. Brent =END= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 21:18:40 EWT From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: critical texts To: talisman@indiana.edu I alluded to the lack of critical editions of Baha'i texts, and Brent asked me what was meant. A critical edition will (a) be made from as many authoritative texts as possible, and (b) will contain enough information to show the reader what evidence the editor had for his decisions and what other possibilities were available to him. This is normally done by annotations of some sort. For example, a critical edition of the Iqan would indicate the passages added in the margin by Baha'u'llah. If the manuscripts differ about a word, there will be a note showing the variation not used and its source. There are also rules for deciding which variation to chose, how much weight to give various MSS, etc. If you are dealing with an old text with a lot of manuscripts , such as a book of the bible or a famous classical text, it can get quite technical. It would be less so for Baha'i texts, where you normally have an autograph manuscript available, although sometimes for Baha'u'llah's works you have more than one version available. A critical text, in short, is a tool for (a) getting as reliable a text as the available information allows while (b) preserving a sort of audit trail that allows the reader to second-guess the editor. john walbridge =END= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:26:54 +1300 To: talisman@indiana.edu From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) Subject: birds/Bergson/capital punishment/relativism Linda, you wrote: >Robert, the entire foundation of the Baha'i Faith is not going to fall if the >Baha'is follow the logic of Darwin's theory. The question, it seems to me, is: "What useful remains of Darwin's theory after the Baha'i teachings have been applied?" The major differences carry intimations of God's wondrous mercy -- the provision of (1) a motive force besides survival of the fittest, and (2) a story of human origins from within the womb of the world of breathtaking elegance. I have just read Dann May's interesting letter and will comment briefly. I am developing the view that in the modern world the Aristotelian notion of causation has been mutilated. Vitalism and volutarism (etc) can be incorporated into the Ariostotelian system, and (therefore) need not be seen as being at odds with other notions of causation, such as (especially) final (or first) cause. As John and Nima (et al) will be quick to point out, the Baha'i viewpoint has strong Aristotelian resonances, to put it mildly. Naturally (excuse the pun) we owe a debt of gratitude to anyone who introduces us to the great rhythms and melodies of creation... It just happens that our debts are to different people... Dann, you wrote: >I am sorry for posting this twice, but in my offline reader it is very easy >to end up putting the wrong subject header on my posts. My original post >listed the subject as Teaching Christians which I felt might not be read by >the appropriate parties. It still has that header, and yes, I almost didn't read it. (3) Safa, you asked whether I thought capital punishment was extreme. My response is this: sometimes getting out of bed in the morning is extreme. Sometimes cutting a flower. Sometimes standing in sunlight. Thus, in order to assess whether capital punishment is extreme or not we must go the the Holy Writ and see whether it is permitted. If we see that it is permitted, we then assume that it is not extreme. This is a marvellous inductive/deductive science. For a less marvellously scientific analysis (but marvellous, nonetheless) we could perhaps bring into our deliberations a wide array of possible punishments for -- say -- mass murder. In this way we might find that torturing and killing the members of the offender's family and village is a genuinely extreme punishment. When we get to the other side Saffa, we must ask a few of those who have been put to death for heinous crimes whether they themselves thought the punishment was extreme.... Until we get their picture, we might just as well be trying to imagine what the feel of water is to a fish. If you know what I mean. I think you take relativism too far. Until a law or teaching of the Faith is changed it is "true". Of course, we know it as true only from the standpoint of contingency, as well as only until it is changed. But it is true nonetheless. Best, Robert. =END= From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT" To: talisman@indiana.edu Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 21:43:41 EST Subject: Re: infallability (2pgs.) Dear Brent, I shall snail mail a hard copy of your response to Mr. Wootten. He is an interesting old-timer the only white man who can successfully put up a tipi and live in it for ten years (that I know of). He was elated to be able to communicate with some Baha'i scholars. I was happy to provide the opportunity for one day. He has deep and profound faith and knowledge of the Writings. However, he falls in the category of eccentric personage. He spent all his time studying Mathnawi, Quran and Baha'i Writings including other sacred scriptures. Sorry, I can't speak on his behalf regarding what he wrote. But, I consider him a good friend. best regards, *** *** * * * =END= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:44:17 +1300 To: Juan R Cole , talisman@indiana.edu From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) Subject: Re: Review / Provisional Translations Juan Cole wrote: > >Those lay Baha'is who are so eager to tell professional Baha'i historians >and philosophers how they should do things would be well advised to listen >to us when we say that their suggestions are impractical and have a >deleterious effect upon Baha'i scholarship (and thence upon a number of >other important areas--publication of journal articles, incorporation of >accurate accounts into reference works, public knowledge of the Faith, >and teaching persons of capacity). Judas, as 'Abdu'l-Baha points out, was the brightest of the disciples. I guess what got Judas in the end was arrogance... More mildly, Fadl was humbled by a mere blacksmith... The Master also wrote that the early Christians, though unlettered, were genuine philosophers... But of course these don't apply here. They just came to mind, that's all. Nothing personal.... From my keyboard to God's ear, Robert. =END= [end of 12/18/95 session =END= Return to Talisman Index
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