Talisman Bahai Archives Dec. 17-18, 1995
Dec. 17-18, 1995
Talisman posts received 12/16/95-12/17/95
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Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 07:16:19+030
To: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: Re: Conscience
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>On Fri, 15 Dec 1995, Don Peden wrote:
>
>> Would this mean that Gandhi's approach of passive non-obedience was an
>> anarchists approach? If it was, let's hear it for the anarchists (I always
>> suspected they had a role to play!)
>
>Well, having an intimate knowledge of the subject, I recall that there
>were some loose connections between the War Resisters I used to hang
>around with, (I used to be Anarchy-Boy in an earlier incarnation) and
>various anarchist groups. Sure, the moral posture is a good one, with
>respect to treatment of one's fellow human beings. But this leaves out
>the no less important ethic of supporting the government.
Thanks for your reply. It was helpful to clarify my understanding
of what you were saying. It seems, however, that the above query and
response has awakened many old ideas and emotions from our fellow peaceniks.
In the discussion of anarchy/government, I would propose that there is a
difference between Gandhi and M.L.King and the anarchists in Spain (just as
an example). The difference was that one used passive resistance, and the
other used violence as a means of accomplishing their end.
When it comes to passive resistance, (which is really what we are
discussing with reference to an individual's inability to follow a directive
which they feel is contrary to moral conscience), it is very hard to have a
catagorical answer...all cases are different...and one walks on very tricky
ground, such as the issue of Germany. We are also distinguishing between
moral obligation of obedience to Baha'u'llah's directive to obey just
governments, and the obligation to be obedient to the House of Justice. Is
the House of Justice a just government, or is it something else? A key word
which, perhaps, bears some exploration is "just". It seems that you have
had some dialogue on this issue with the world centre, and I would be very
interested in hearing what the Universal House of Justice responded. I
don't know if this is old territory on Talisman or not, and if it is,
perhaps a private posting would be appropriate to continue on.
Thanks again for your response,
Love,
Bev.
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 23:31:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: publishing statistics
Paul Johnson's analysis of published books per capita contains an
important truth, however you look at it. The OCLC database represents a
good indication of what is available to the public, at least, and the
Baha'is are weird in this regard even compared to sectarian or esoteric
movements that began in the 19th century.
It is simply not true that the series *Studies in Babi and Baha'i
History/Religions* has sold badly. The fact is that whereas few academic
books can hope nowadays to sell more than about 500 copies (that is,
monographs published by e.g. Princeton University Press or U of Cal.
Press), there is a market of about 1,000 Baha'i households for pretty
much any serious book about the Faith. Since it costs $20,000-$30,000 to
publish academic books, and since they can be priced around $30, you can
see that it is possible to publish such books and to break even or make a
small profit.
My translations of Mirza Abu'l-Fadl's books must have sold in the
thousands by now, by the way (does Tony know?)
So, the drawback is not financial, or not primarily so. I personally
think it is ideological. The Baha'i community simply is not on the whole
very welcoming of individual insights, demanding conformity and
centralizing everything in the hands of elected bureaucrats, most of whom
are not themselves intellectuals. The covenant is frequently brandished
about as some sort of threat or control mechanism.
The system provides serious disincentives to authors. First of all, why
spend years writing a book that could be turned down in the final
analysis by a Review committee? This has happened to a number of Baha'i
authors over the years, though not so much in this country; the
derailment of the Encyclopaedia is a good example.
Nor is everything that goes on in this regard through official channels.
Last year a Baha'i academic with a Ph.D. in the social sciences had an
introductory book on the Faith submitted for review in a European
country. The Review committee contacted an individual member of the
House about it. That House member objected to a number of aspects of the
book, though he is not himself an academic. It took some doing to
convince the Reviewing committee that all this was improper and that the
book should be allowed to appear as was. Most authors are simply not
willing to put up with these sorts of hassles. We have lost at least two
Baha'i magazines because of similar hassles.
This situation, as Paul's statistics indicate, is abnormal and
intellectually unhealthy.
As for the Covenant, can we please listen for once to the Centre of the
Covenant?
At the Central Congregational Church in Brooklyn on 16 June 1912, `Abdu'l-
Baha said: "Just as in the world of politics there is need for free thought,
likewise in the world of religion there should be the right of
unrestricted individual belief. Consider what a vast difference exists
between modern democracy and the old forms of despotism. Under an
autocratic government the opinions of men are not free, and
development is stifled, whereas in a democracy, because thought and
speech are not restricted, the greatest progress is witnessed. It is
likewise true in the world of religion. When freedom of conscience,
liberty of thought and right of speech prevail--that is to say, when
every man according to his own idealization may give expression to his
beliefs--development and growth are inevitable." At the Universalist
Church Washington, D.C. on 6 Nov. 1912, he said: "Praise be to
God! The standard of liberty is held aloft in this land. You enjoy
political liberty; you enjoy liberty of thought and speech, religious
liberty, racial and personal liberty."
Surely we want the "inevitable" "development and growth" of the Baha'i
Faith? And if we do, the Master has told us exactly how we can ensure
it. We are nearly 40 years into the post-Guardian era, the Faith has
emerged from obscurity, and it is time now to move away from spoon-fed
baby food and toward something of more intellectual substance, toward a
recognition of the individual right of individual interpretation and a
recognition of the inevitable (and desirable) diversity of thought in a
global Faith. Our profound loyalty to the Institutions, for whom some on
Talisman have put their lives at risk in the past, is not a reason to
deprive them of the sort of perspectives and consultation that
free-wheeling discussion alone can provide.
Let us not question one another's motives. After all, it would be as easy
to speak of Baha'i "careerists" who attempt to parlay a rhetoric of
super-loyalty into a high standing in the community as it would be to
speak of selfish Western (is that a racial slur?) intellectuals motivated
by ego rather than the best interests of the Faith. The goal for all
Baha'is on Talisman is the same, to see an efflorescence of the
community. Only if such an efflorescence were already visible would it
be illegitimate to discuss the necessary changes to bring it about. In
fact, of course, Baha'is are culturally impoverished and intellectually
deprived, and I personally believe this gap has made it difficult for the
community to grow in a literate society such as the U.S. (and even moreso
in places such as France, where our numbers are pitiful).
cheers Juan Cole, Dept. of History, University of Michigan
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 23:42:32 EST
Subject: Re: QUANTA'S HOME PAGE
Dearly beloved Talismanistas,
Some of you send me e-mail and taking my offer for posting your
pictures as 'Quanta's Talismanian Friends'on the www.home page. I am
very serious about this. I will put your picture, or group picture
some of you took at those conferences, if you send
me one ASAP. Put your name and the date in the back and mail it with
permission to:
Quanta Dawn-Light
809 Tower Street
Raleigh, N.C. 27607-7364
My home phone (919) 833-2452 best time to reach me is late eves or
early mornings. Or, leave a message.
p.s. This weekend I will be adding some more stuff on the home page,
including a chanting of a prayer and reading poetry, if you have
access to multimedia audio equipment, you'll hear Quanta!
Also if John & Linda Walbridge wishes me to I will write a few
introductory lines about my beloved Talisland too. Love y'all.
Thank you God, I needed some pleasant distractions from hoh humm!
I am studying for taking an exam for a job position, so when I am done
I'll be back in full swing my dearest, much missed Talismafriends.
with much love and best wishes,
*** ***
* *
*
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:05:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy A. Nolan"
To: 72110.2126@compuserve.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Conscience
David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com> writes:
> First, the comment, on Tim Nolan's post of yesterday -- Tim, you
> say that "there have to be limits on civil disobedience. Not all
> disobeyers have the noble principles of a Gandhi or M.L. King.
> Some who practice civil disobedience are simply terrorists or
> murderers."
>
dl> I would submit that civil disobedience has a long and powerful
dl> history *because* it has disavowed terrorism and murder.
I certainly agree that non-violent civil disobedience has a history
to be proud of. Unfortunately, not all disobedience is that noble.
Surely it is obvious that there are terrorists and murderers who
are not merely common criminals. Some horrible actions have been
carried out in the name of resisting a government that someone sees
as unjust. In my view, this is really about *principles*.
If we accept the *principle* that it is morally right sometimes to
disobey the law in order to follow what our consciences tell us
is a higher good,....once that *principle* is established, then it
becomes necessary to define clearly what is "moral" and what is
a "higher good". The man who recently murdered the prime minister
of Israel apparently thought he was serving a "higher good".
So, the fundamental question, which will always pester us until
it is answered, is, "Who gets to define what is a 'higher good'"
What one person may think is a just cause for disobeying a law, you may
see as narrow mindedness, paranoia, or a simple lust for vengeful
bloodletting. Who gets to define the circumstances under which civil
disobedience is justified or not justified, and who gets to decide
what acts of disobedience are permissible? I think it is important
to face up to the reality that not everyone is noble minded. Some
people are capable of morally horrific acts, which they call
"civil disobedience" or "freedom fighting". There are many people
who disobey laws, and most of them are not Gandhi or Thoreau.
The existence of the Universal House of Justice makes this
moral dilemma go away. Since the decisions of the House of Justice
are "the truth and the purpose of God Himself", since that body
is "the source of all good and freed from all error" therefore
it follows that there can never be a circumstance when moral principle
will be better served by disobeying the House to follow one's
individual conscience. Following one's conscience may make a person
feel better, but disobeying the truth and the purpose of God Himself
obviously can never be morally right. The voice an individual hears
as his or her conscience is not guaranteed unerring divine guidance;
the House of Justice is guaranteed exactly this.
dl> To lump nonviolent civil disobedience and criminal or genocidal
dl> acts together makes a serious category error.
Oh, I agree with you completely. The point is there ARE people who
make exactly this error. There are people who kill and terrorize
and call it civil disobedience. What should be done about them?
Should people be allowed civil disobedience only if they have
the "right" kind of conscience? If yes, who gets to define
what the "right" kind of conscience is?
dl> The presence of the Universal House of Justice, and their rulings
dl> on various Baha'i laws, helps immeasurably in but does not replace
dl> the operation of the individual conscience.
I agree. In a letter about chastity, published back in 1969, the
Universal House of Justice wrote to the effect that one cannot
be a good Baha'i by merely following a list of rules. The House of
Justice went on to say that it is not possible AND NOT DESIREABLE
for the Universal House of Justice to make rules to tell us precisely
what to do in any possible situation. Instead, the House wrote,
a Baha'i should perform every conscious act in the spirit of service
to God. If a person follows this principle, the House said, he or she
will not fail to realize the true purpose of his or her life.
Tim Nolan
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 1
To: rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com (Ahang Rabbani)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 0:58:59 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Ahang: 16 December 1995
Yours is the clearest picture I've seen on Zuhur al-Haqq. I look
forward to further posts on this monumental work. I am particularly
interested in any information on Baha'u'llah that is not contained in
Nabil (if this is at all possible to determine).
But I have a more general question. I would like to draw an
analogy between the Tehran *House of Justice* (is this accurate? or
anachronistic?), the commissioning of Zuhur al-Haqq and the Baha'i
Encyclopedia Project and its commissioning by the US-NSA/UHJ.
One major difference is that, from what I gather, the Baha'i
Encyclopedia Project is not dead. Comatose, perhaps, but not dead. Zuhur
al-Haqq, however, suffered much more severe vicissitudes. This
historically-encyclopedic project has been dead for decades. The only hope
for it is a physical resurrection.
Despite the fact that *Jinab-i Fadil* was one of the only two
*fully-confirmed Baha'is* whom the beloved Master sent to America (the
other being Mirza Abu'l-Fadl) and despite Fadil's secret rank as a Hand of
the Cause of God, it appears to me that his scholarship was vigorously
opposed by certain powerful influences in Baha'i administration.
Perhaps you might enlarge on this, Ahang. It is a delicate subject
and it is not my intention to scandalize the Administration in Tehran. But
the tensions generated between scholarship and Administration ought to
stand as an object lesson in history.
No one would ever doubt or impugn Fadil's fidelity to the
Covenant. So why was publication of Zuhur al-Haqq opposed? What were the
issues involved?
Once again, Ahang, I am interested in the issues and not in
criticizing the Institutions of the time. I just want your thoughts as to
whether or not Baha'i history is repeating itself in the Baha'i
Encyclopedia Project. I would hope that my analogy does not hold, and that
things have really come quite a long way since then.
If the Baha'i Encyclopedia does get published, which I have faith it
will, will Zuhur al-Haqq as well?
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: think@ucla.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Interesting info
Date: 16 Dec 1995 00:13:07 GMT
This is a reference to the 'our' Mason Remey.
Actually there were 3 complete sets of his materials in the state. One went
to a public library in S E Iowa, don't remember where just now. Iowa
received some of the most complete sets that he sent out because of the
connection of the Mason family (his mother's maiden name) to Iowa. As I
remember, he was born in Iowa, but left at a very early age. His mother's
father was the first Federal Judge in the state, and is considered somewhat
important in the judicial history of the era because of some of his
decisions. Other compete or nearly complete sets were given to Wisconsin
(?), because of his father's family roots, and the District of Columbia (?)
because of the family's involvement in the government and navy.
The issue of the box was first popularized during the move from the old State
Library to the new Historical Building because it was rather difficult to
move. Then when it was opened, several of the local TV stations were on
hand. There was mention of the Faith in connection with it, but he usually
came off sounding like an egotistical nut.
Don C
- sent via an evaluation copy of BulkRate (unregistered).
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 21:09:29 +1300 (NZDT)
To: SFotos@eworld.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Darwinism and the Writings
Sandy wrote,
>Some Baha'i friends in the natural sciences (and me too, since I have a
>background in maine botany )have felt that this statement refers to
>potentiality rather than to morphology.
>
>The particular line which would eventually evolve into humans was always
>distinct and identifiable in terms of its future direction, although not in
>terms of its physical appearance vis a vis other organisms.
>
>Again, may I argue for the longitudinal perspective?
Why not? Religions and the best philosophical systems are inevitably
teleological. But just as the deathless human soul comes into existence at
conception, even when humans were rather amoebic in appearance they were
nonethless essentially separated from all other creatures through their
investment with what 'Abdu'l-Baha calls an ideal endowment. Which -- as
you indicate -- expresses itself only progressively, through unfoldment...
Which is to say, I suppose, that our amoebic thru ape-like forbears will be
present in the next world fully invested with *human* beauty.... As will
aborted foetuses...
Robert (a small black dog with springy step) Johnston
=END=
Date: 16 Dec 95 00:38:15 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: my fuzzy post
To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz, talisman@indiana.edu
Reply to: my fuzzy post
Good question - First the Guardian - I think he said something about not being
an authority on things that are scientific...... science seems to be saying
something different these days. I do not think it takes anything away from what
he says, its in the application.
Northern California sets the standards, for fine whine, freeways, pollution,
both high and low academic standards in our public schools, great weather, some
of the finest scenery in the world, Mt. Shasta, hippies, right wing
fundamenatlists, left wing fundamentalists, Berkeley, technology, art, culture,
smog, fog, a sense that there is a contribution that can be made by everyone in
a society no matter who thery are - the sense gets written into things like
constitutions, human rights, Easelen, affirmative action statements here, Mrs.
Doubtfire, computers, tall trees, Pete's Coffee, great t-shirts, good pizza,
the biggest long distance race in the world (Bay to Breakers 150 000 and no
crime), the most beautiful city in the world (San Francisco is well, ok, one of
them), were only $29.00 away from Disneyland, multiethnic junkfood (I had a
salmon burrito today)...... oh yeah gay rights.
Admittedly not all of these standards are those that should be adopted by
everyone, its just a cool place that a lot of people move to from all over the
world. I think the same can be said about about a hundred thousand other palces
on the planet. - Daniel (not meaning to be a cultural snob)
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: epiphanies & reverence
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 07:50:06 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi, Eric -
You're welcome, Eric. Sorry for taking so long to get back to you.
My Internet provider was down for a little over a day, and I am trying
to gradually get caught up on my mail which had build up to 187 messages!
P>Mark, you know it is probably ok for you to say you are pissed when
P>people make snide comments about why you are still not married, and it
P>is probably also ok to say you are frustrated with something about the
P>discussion here. Let it out, it's better than letting it fester. You
P>are a great guy, I really appreciate what you have contributed.
Thank you, brother Eric ;-). Actually, these sorts of statements do
not bother me. In the case you are referring to, I think that the poster
was well-intentioned and was speaking out of a sincere concern. At
*other times*, however (not in the situation you are referring to here
in cyberspace), I have had people try to convince me that I *should* get
married. Some have even produced Baha'i texts, out of context IMO, to
support their contention. I tend to take such statements, however
inappropriate, as expressions of where the "other guy" is coming from.
I try not to judge these people. What they say honestly does not bother
me. OTOH, direct, personal name-calling can, as you know, stir me up.
However, recognizing that weakness in myself, I have of late been doing
some inner work so that, hopefully, I can, if appropriate, mention my
displeasure without *reacting* to that either.
P>I don't know if I should be AWED by Mark, Tim and Robert's reverence/faith
P>in the infallability/sinlessness (or whatever term you like) of the House
P>of Justice, or HORRIFIED by the possibility that because of that faith,
P>they would seem to be willing to give up their responsibility to protect
P>a friend's life under the hypothetical circumstances that we have been
P>discussing.
Speaking only for myself, my feeling is that the Bab and Baha'u'llah
also wish the highest for God's servants, and I trust that, as They
guide the Supreme Body in its deliberations, its members will come to a
decision which will be for the best of all concerned - even though
neither myself nor my friend may understand the wisdom involved.
Warm greetings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-)
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: miscellaneous
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 07:50:07 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hannah, Dan, Terry, and other Talismanians -
Hannah, I appreciated your message. Personally, I do not feel that
people are playing games, but I think that we are all aware of one or
more ideological gulfs on Talisman, and some folks are trying to
understand those who have a different view of things than they do.
I am also saddened by the AOL problem. Certainly, the National
Center should be informed. If Rob Stockman has been reading these
messages, perhaps he could, with Dan's consent, relay this information
to the secretary's office (unless, of course, they are already aware of
it).
Since I am one of two supervisory AOL Baha'i staff, I will take it
upon myself to discreetly inquire further into this matter. However, I
am the chief Baha'i chat host (with my two assistants). It is the other
administrator who is responsible for the message board. Fortunately, we
have not seen any comparable rudeness on the Front Porch (the religion
and ethics chat area).
Dan, if you need the screen name of the Baha'i message board host, I
can email it to you privately.
Terry, I enjoyed reading about your teaching efforts among the Jews.
As someone who comes from a Jewish background, I have always wished that
there were some way to formally promote such teaching efforts without
endangering the special relationship that Baha'is have with the nation
of Israel.
Fortunately, there is a great deal of universalism in some sectors
of the Jewish community. For example, ALEPH, the major organization
devoted to Jewish renewal (which I am a member of - since one need not
have Judaism as one's formal religion in order to join), has been
working on returning spiritual vitality to the Jewish community. Its
founder is Reb Zalman Schachter-Shalomi, a former Lubavicher rabbi, who
now, by his own admission (in the book _Paradigm Shift_), is trying to
do the same thing for Judaism as Matthew Fox has for Roman Catholicism
(now, of course, Anglo-Catholicism). Like Fox, Reb Zalman (as he is
known) refers to eco-spirituality and calls the earth by its Greek name,
gaia (with all its wonderfully neo-pagan connotations).
I wonder if Jewish renewal and ALEPH could be a "thought bridge" to
reach out to these people - to find a common focus? As an aside, I
personally feel that the late Marian Lippitt and Foundation for the
Science of Reality may have a *similar*, though not identical, function
within the Baha'i community as Fox's Institute for Creation Spirituality
is having within Christianity and Reb Zalman's ALEPH is having within
Judaism.
Bright blessings,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-)
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 05:41:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Zuhur'l-Haqq and Encyclopedia
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Once again through sheer brilliance, Chris Buck has managed to cut
through all the smoke and put his finger right on the heart of the
issues -- the short answer is: yes, there are a lot of
similarities between what happened to Zuhuru'l-Haqq and the
current status of the Baha'i Encyclopedia.
Let me first state what I know as to what happened with
Zuhuru'l-Haqq project. The lessons may then be obvious.
On 11 Jalal 107 BE (1951) the NSA of Iran (Ali-Akbar Furutan was
NSA secretary) published a 16 page open letter which at the end
contains a short response by Fadil. This letter was the kiss of
death for both Zuhurh'l-Haqq series and Fadil's scholarship and
reputation. He spent the latter part of his life away from the
Baha'i community -- though extremely active in teaching field.
After the passing of his wife, he married a Muslim woman and his
three sons were raised with deep resentments towards the Baha'i
community in general -- though they are very knowledgeable about
the Cause and have many good Baha'i friends. His youngest son
lives here in Houston, another passed away (in Ohio?) with the
eldest (he is about 80 years old now) being in the States now
seeking medical treatment (heart problem).
Of most concern is that Fadil had some extremely valuable and
*unique* Texts and documents in his possessions, not to mention
the fact that he had completed a number of very important books on
the Faith which I believe he never shared with the administration
and left with his sons -- which either have all been destroyed or
awaits freezing of hell before they are handed over to the Faith.
As an example of some of the books which he has completed but you
never hear anyone mentioning it is a massive Encyclopedia on the
Cause under the title "Asraru'l-Athar-i Umumi" (General Mysteries
of the Writings). Years earlier he published a 5-volume Baha'i
encyclopedia series titled "Asraru'l-Athar-i Khususi" (Specific
Mysteries of the Writings) which no serious Baha'i student should
be without. But his "Umumi" version was apparently the finest
single piece of scholarship ever attempted in the Cause and its a
great shame if destroyed -- or never published.
But again, what is of greatest importance is the massive amount of
Tablets and original documents which he had in his possession
which never found their way to the Cause. Some time ago, when I
was posting on Quddus (I believe my first post on this topic), I
discussed that for example he had a Tablet of Baha'u'llah in his
possession where He states that had the Bab not declared, then
Quddus would have. (Dr. Muhammad Afnan in Andalib states there is
not such Tablet, but I think he knows better.)
Anyway, the question is what happened with this most productive
Baha'i scholar of all time (in my view, several orders of
magnitude above Mirza Abu'l-Fadl or anyone else in the Faith)?
The answer to this question is with "the Dawnbreakers"!
All roads eventually lead to "The Dawnbreakers" which the beloved
Guardian has stated is the "standard for Baha'i history", but in
reality has served as the standard for Baha'i fundamentalism.
"The Dawnbreakers" in my view is the biggest barrier to Baha'i
scholarship! In fact, one can trace back the emergence of Baha'i
fundamentalism right to the publication of this book and then
exaggerated statements about it being "THE STANDARD".
And that's when Fadil's troubles began.
Fadil's view of history was based on several decades of
incomparable collection of Texts, documents, narratives,
interviews with old believers and extensive travels throughout the
region -- not to mentioned a very elevated sense of devotion to
the Cause which both Abdu'l-Baha and the beloved Guardian have
praised repeatedly.
So, what happened?
Fadil had completed his first 3 volumes when Ali-Akbar Furutan got
all bent out of shape. Now Furutan was (and is) somewhat of
intellectual lightweight (and I'm afraid history won't be very
kind to him on his writings, unless the House send out (which they
will!) an extremely glowing cable after his death to silence all
his critics (which are many)).
This is all in early 1930's. So, Furutan, knowing that he
couldn't take on a great mind like Fadil, got together with a real
intellectual superstar (well, fast becoming one in those days),
namely, my other hero, Ishraq-Khavari. Together they made a case
that certain points in Zuhuru'l-Haqq series do not conform to The
Dawnbreaker -- the "standard"! So, they write to the Guardian.
This makes Shoghi Effendi all upset with Zuhuru'l-Haqq as he
didn't like anything that deviated by a dot from the Dawnbreakers.
So on 15 September 1932, he writes (my inadequate translation):
"Immediately organize a special committee to investigate,
reorganize and bring into conformity Jinab-i Fadil's history
with that of Nabil's history [the Dawnbreakers]. Of this
task and grave responsibility, no delay is permitted, and
utmost effort must be diligently exerted."
Poor Fadil. After a letter like this from the Guardian, well,
his goose was cooked.
What happened next is the ugliest chapter in Baha'i scholarship
which has ever occurred. If you think things are bad now with
respect to scholarship, well, you ain't seen nothing.
(I have no intention of discussing the details on Talisman, and
if pressed, will move the conversation over to Tarjuman, but in
truth really rather not disclose any details, mostly because
there is no guarantee that what I know is really what happened.
Remember, I'm just a young lad in my 30's, I wasn't around in
those days.)
What is a matter of public record and I can safely state is that
a committee was organized and closely (word by word) examined
Zuhuru'l-Haqq. Now the Guardian wanted this to be done
overnight. Well it took nearly 20 years to complete this process
(Fadil's "confessional" letter is dated 1951). So, those hoping
for a quick resolution of Baha'i Encyclopedia impasse may wish to
make note of this.
At the end, as I said, NSA of Iran published a 16 page letter
outlining all the "errors" in ZH-3 and included Fadil's own short
letter giving a blanket agreement with their comments.
This letter of NSA of Iran is the greatest stupidity ever
committed by a Baha'i institution and shows only their depth of
ignorance. I will share its content as our discussion of ZH-3
unfolds.
This letter resulted in discouraging a model servant of the Faith
from further association with Baha'i administration and silenced
anyone who dared to do serious or independent scholarship.
Forever though the memory of this illustrious scholar of the
Cause is inscribed upon the hearts of those seeking knowledge.
The incredible injustice that took place a half-century ago must
be set right, and it is my intention to speak publicly, openly
and supportive of the Hand of the Cause of God Fadil-i
Mazandarani wherever I can. If justice means anything to you, I
implore you to do likewise.
With devotion to the Faith, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 09:35:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: Member1700@aol.com, talisman
Subject: Review / Provisional Translations
Dear Tony,
I am asking you this question via Talisman in case others are
curious, too. Recently, someone (I apologize for forgetting who) broke
down into a few specific categories the reasons that review would reject
a text, one of which was the use of provisional translations. Yet, in
SBBR Vol. 5, Lambden's "Sinaitic Mysteries" is full of provisional
translations. I quote footnote 62, p. 166: "Unless otherwise indicated
all translations from Persian and Arabic sources are my own." How was
this possible? And, I'm not sure about this, but didn't Lawson also
translate some of his quotations of the Bab's works in the first essay
himself?
-Jonah
PS- If anyone reading this note has not read the book, let me encourage
you to do so. It is, along with Chris's volume, one of the very best
academic books on the Faith yet produced. We owe great thanks to Kalimat
for producing such fine work!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 10:02:02 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Review and translation
To: talisman@indiana.edu
One of the reasons that I have written virtually nothing for publication
on the Faith (apart from a great many unpublished encyclopedia
articles) is that it is virtually impossible to write anything substantive
about Baha'i thought without doing translations. For example, my
own academic speciality is Islamic philosophy, which sheds great
light on Baha'i texts like *Some Answered Questions*, but even
when such texts are translated, the translations are not suitable for
the kind of technical use I would wish to make up them. Nima
can explain why, for instance, I could not use the chapter in
SAQ that translates "wahdat al-wujud" as "pantheism". It is not
that there is anything wrong with the translations; it is just that
a translation made for devotional use is probably not going to be
usable for theological analysis. The rules have loosened in recent
years, so that people now talk about "provisional translations" or
"paraphrases," but the situation is still not very satisfactory.
There is a larger problem here, in fact. A field like Baha'i studies
is comparable to fields like the classics, Egyptology, or Islamic studies.
Such fields develop in a logical way, the first step being to make
sources available. That means that we now ought to be concentrating
on publishing primary texts, translating, cataloging, etc. Apart from
the systematic cataloging of primary texts being done in the Holy
Land (which are generally not available to scholars) and the American Baha'i
archives, the rules about review and translation have made such
activity very difficult. We have no critical edition of any work of
Baha'i scripture; the only full editions and translations of any Babi works
have been done by Azalis and non-Baha'is respectively. None of the
primary sources for the life of Baha'u'llah have been published. Such
limitations discourage scholars, Baha'i and non-Baha'i, from seriously
pursuing the field. After all, to do a critical edition (for non-specialists,
a "critical edition" is an edition of a text that uses as many manuscripts
as possible to produce a reliable version of the text) of, say, Qayyumu'l-
Asma', the first major work of the Bab, would take a scholar two to
four years. It would be a worthy project, but no one is going to
undertake it unless he is reasonably sure that he can publish it without
interference. The real cost of fiascos like the Salmani affair and the
Baha'i Encyclopedia is that they discourage scholars from involving
themselves in such projects, even if they actually are commissioned
or pre-approved by Baha'i institutions.
john walbridge
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:58:11 +0100 (MET)
Subject: homosexuality
To: talisman@indiana.edu
John (W),
Just to say I appreciated your posting
regarding the 'legalisation' of homosexual
marriages. Perhaps some less formal type
of modus vivendi might be more practically
realizable at present. Such as a statement to the
effect that there is no reason why the Baha'i
community should concern itself with the sexual
relations or abstinence, as the case may be, of
people living together, whether or not they have
formally undertaken a civil marriage (which is legally
recognized for homosexuals in the Netherlands, as I
understand it). But on the other hand, it might be
considered inappropriate at present to apply other aspects
of Baha'i law, such as the dowry and parental permission.
Politics is the art of the possible
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:59:05 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Quddus
To: talisman@indiana.edu
On 9 November Ahang posted a piece on Quddus's Commentary on the Sad of Samad,
in which he said that this was variously stated as being 500,000 verses and
6 times as long as the Quran. The later figure should at any rate be a 3:
the reference is on p 357:
In the days of his confinement in the town of Sari, Quddus,
whom Mirza Muhammad-Taqi had requested to write a commentary
on the Surih of Ikhlas, better known as the Surih of
Qul Huva'llahu'l-Ahad, composed, in his interpretation
of the Sad of Samad alone, a treatise which was thrice
as voluminous as the Qur'an itself.
If this is an ongoing work, the 480,200 missing verses might have been
composed later, but there is a reference on p 409 which tells us the
manuscript fitted in a single saddle-bag. (There is another reference
to the commentary on p 390, which also gives an inkling of the level
to which a fireside can aspire!). I assume that the 500,000 is mythical
rather than arithmetical in the case of Quddus: what about the Bab? Give
his long confinement and the availability of secretaries, is 500,000 verses
entirely unrealistic in his case?
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 10:04:14 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: List Rules
To: talisman@indiana.edu
The list rules and customs are posted periodically for the benefit of
new members and for the exhortation of the old. I remind the honored
members of the prohibition of ad hominem arguments and the fact
that the culture of the list runs to the argumentitive.
John Walbridge
******
TALISMAN is an unmoderated forum for discussion of issues
related to the Babi and Baha'i Faiths: history, theology, social issues, etc.
Content can include discussion of relevant issues, queries, announcements,
advertisements of books of interest to the members, etc. The list owner is
John Walbridge, Professor of Near Eastern Languages and of Philosophy,
Indiana University, Bloomington.
1. The service is provided through the University Computer Center of
Indiana University. Participants are reminded that this service is paid for
by the taxpayers of the state of Indiana, that the fundamental purpose of
this list is scholarly, and that discussion should thus be conducted on the
basis of evidence and rational argument. The list is open to anyone
approved by the list owner.
2. The list is actually an automatic forwarding device. The list owner does
not moderate content, nor does he wish to do so. Participants are free to
argue for whatever views they wish, provided they do so courteously and
on the basis of evidence and sound reasoning.
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4. Participants are reminded that they are on the list as guests of the list
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5. The list owner being a Midwesterner of philosophic temperament,
participants are requested to refrain from abusive language, discourtesy, ad
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members should be willing to defend their expressed opinions against
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6. Please remember that all postings go out to all members. Sophomoric,
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7. Please refrain from unnecessarily including the text of the message you
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8. No archive of messages is available, nor is there a list of participants.
9. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message to
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10. To contact the listowner privately, e-mail to jwalbrid@indiana.edu.
11. A custom has developed on this list--based, it seems, on Maori
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=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 10:21:27 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: intelligent readers
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Robert, the answer to your question as to whether we have any intelligent
readers of history (incl. evolution) is: YES! Linda
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 11:23:11 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: antonpf@name.net (Anton Pickard-Ferguson)
Subject: Introducing myself to the list
Greetings,
Being a new subscriber, I'd like to introduce myself to the other memebers
of the list.
I am 42 years old, married with a daughter and live in Toronto, Ontario. My
vocation is a multimedia artist/producer as a partner in a small company.
My primary role is creating computer graphics and animation for
presentations, CD-ROM, print and video productions.
My interest in this list stems from being a Baha'i in the past but not at
present. My journey has brought me back to an investigation of the Faith
and I look forward to participating with others as I struggle with my
questions.
best regards to all,
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anton Pickard-Ferguson
In.Visible.Media, Toronto, Ontario,
Net: antonpf@name.net | CIS: 71141.2323@compuserve.com
Voice: (416) 252-1650 | Fax: (416) 253-4443
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 09:42:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Quddus
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Sen,
You wrote:
> On 9 November Ahang posted a piece on Quddus's Commentary on the Sad
> of Samad, in which he said that this was variously stated as being
> 500,000 verses and 6 times as long as the Quran. The later figure
> should at any rate be a 3: the reference is on p 357:
> In the days of his confinement in the town of Sari, Quddus, whom
> Mirza Muhammad-Taqi had requested to write a commentary on the Surih
> of Ikhlas, better known as the Surih of Qul Huva'llahu'l-Ahad,
> composed, in his interpretation of the Sad of Samad alone, a treatise
> which was thrice as voluminous as the Qur'an itself.
Actually the passage you quote continues to say:
"That exhaustive and masterly exposition had profoundly impressed
Mirza Muhammad-Taqi and had been responsible for the marked
consideration which he showed towards Quddus, although in the end he
joined the Sa'idu'l-'Ulama' in compassing the death of the heroic
martyrs of Shaykh Tabarsi. Quddus continued, while besieged in that
fort, to write his commentary on that Surih, and was able, despite
the vehemence of the enemy's onslaught, to pen as many verses as he
had previously written in Sari in his interpretation of that same
letter."
The way I read these, and I'm very much open to receiving corrections,
is that Quddus wrote half of it, 3 times the size of Qur'an in Sari and
then the second half, hence a total of 6 Qur'an, at Fort Tabarsi. Does
that make sense? Did I misread Nabil?
The passage in the Dawnbreakes continues yet to say:
"The rapidity and copiousness of his composition, the inestimable
treasures which his writings revealed, filled his companions with
wonder and justified his leadership in their eyes. They read eagerly
the pages of that commentary which Mulla Husayn brought to them each
day and to which he paid his share of tribute."
Believe me (and if you don't ask Juan Cole who knows Quddus infinitely
better than I), these statement are so true. His composition is so
fantastic that it overwhelms.
> I assume that the 500,000 is mythical rather than arithmetical in the
> case of Quddus: what about the Bab? Give his long confinement and the
> availability of secretaries, is 500,000 verses entirely unrealistic
> in his case?
Again, for now, I'm sticking to my theory that certain references to
Quddus and the Bab are mixed up because of the identical titles that
they had and that's where Nabil got confused over 500,000 verses for
Quddus.
The figure for the total amount of Bab's Writings as 500,000 verses, as
you well know, comes form the Persian Bayan. Now that was written mid
point (3 years) into his Ministry. Of the remaining years, He wrote
very little (actually only massive Tablets of Visitation for Quddus and
Mulla Husayn) and a Persian work, and a few other odds and ends, from
May 1849 (Quddus' martyrdom) to July 1850. So basically the last 14
months of His life He composed little.
That leaves us with nearly 2 years between the time of His statement in
the Persian Bayan to May 1849. He must have composed many, many items
during this period, so in my view 500,000 is a gross underestimate.
Besides look at the volume of His Writings contained in INBA series.
Its huge. I don't know how many verses, but its huge.
Now, does it add up to 7 or 8 hundred thousands verses (or at least
500,000 as testified in the Persian Bayan)? No way! Probably half of
it. Maybe even less. Ergo, a large chunk (half?) is missing. But the
rumor has it that there is hope .... ;-}
Do others (John, Juan, Lambden...) have a thought on these? I for one
am very interested to learn what you have to share.
regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 11:04:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 3
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Beloved Friends,
Since everyone has been so tolerant of my incoherent comments on
Zuhuru'l-Haqq, I thought to share a bit more as to their contents,
so with your permission, I like to concentrate for now on the first
volume that I have in my possession, namely, ZH-3 and hope that
others would correct any inadvertent misrepresentation. (By the
way, my earlier posting titled "Zuhuru'l-Haqq and Encyclopedia" is
now considered part 2 of these series of postings (as if you really
cared ...)
In the introduction to this 532 page book, Fadil states that his
purpose in this third volume (out of 9-vol series) is to provide:
1. biographical information on believers during the Babi
Dispensation,
2. efforts of the enemies of the Cause,
3. description of Holy places associated with the early days of
the Faith
4. a general history of the Babi community in each region.
As we will see, in may ways this book is closely connected to ZH-2
and indeed a reading of it without the earlier volumes (and ZH-6)
is relatively unsatisfactory. This is because just about all the
topics discussed, have their full story told in ZH-2, and then for
many of the survivers of the Babi period, he picks up the rest of
their story in ZH-6. More on this later.
Fadil has organized the book according to the major regions of Iran
and then within each, discusses key communities and prominent
figures, both friends and foes, as well as a describing buildings
where the Bab visited or otherwise is of importance to the history
of the Cause.
I think for our purposes, its best if I outline the contents of
this book under the headings:
1. Writings of the Bab
2. References to the Revelation of the Bab
3. Documents
4. References to books and treatise
5. References to ZH-2 and ZH-6 (and other ZH's)
6. Regions
7. Holy Places
I hope this is acceptable to all. So, here we go ...
1. Writings of the Bab
Jinab-i Fadil quotes extensively from the Writings of the Bab
which he himself had a particular affinity for -- as we all do.
He included the following extracts (listed below by page number)
from the Writings of the Bab, and I'll try to include *very brief*
comments, unless folks want more detailed discussion of certain
Tablets, in which case Juan or John will do the honor:
Pd-j: Arabic, 1.5 pages long, in praise and glorification of
God, states at the end that sufficient proof (play on words here,
since one of the title of the Bab is the Proof) has been divulged
in the Book.
P13-16: Arabic, 3.5 pages long, the Bab discusses a number of
events which befell Him during the first three years of His
ministry, for example on the opening paragraph gives the exact
date of entrance in Mah-Ku prison, events leading up to His
imprisonment, showers praise on such earlier figures as Shaykh
Baha'i, Shaykh Ahmad, Siyyid Kazim, Mir Damad and expresses His
servitude unto the Threshold of Almighty, and pays homage to
earlier Prophets and holy figures.
P20-22: Arabic, 3 pages, in response to questions of one of the
Letters of the Living, Mulla Baqir-i Tabrizi, as to why so much of
the Bayan is devoted to Him Whom God will make manifest. This is
among the last Tablets of the Bab and is extremely important as in
there, He once again reiterates that He, His Revelation and all the
Letters of the Living, are but a creation of Him [Baha'u'llah] and
serve His Threshold. At one point (towards the end), the Bab
states categorically that He (Baha'u'llah) will appear in the year
80 [1280H = 1863], and that His recognition is not possible except
through His Writings. In many ways, this Tablet could be
considered the Bab's final testament, though He had a formal Will.
P53-54: Arabic, 1.5 pages, Revealed in Mah-Ku, in response to
the questions of Mirza Ahmad's Abdal-i Maraghi'i, elucidating a
particular verse of Qur'an.
P68(extra): Arabic, 3 pages, three examples of the Bab's
handwritings and 2 of His seals. One of the reproduced specimen
is the Bab's response to a query which He penned on the margin
of the incoming letter.
P69: Persian, 0.5 pages, an extract from the Persian Bayan where
He claims divinity and says that of all things mentioned in
Qur'an the most important is the Day of Resurrection (allusion to
the Bab's appearance).
P69: Arabic, 0.3 pages, a brief extract from one His prayers
P70-72: Arabic, 2.5 pages, Revealed in Mah-Ku, a Tablet
addressed to Mulla Muhammad-Taqi Harudi, where He emphatically
outlines His own stations and claims Qa'imiyyat. (Fadil points out
that in ZH-2 another major Tablet where the Bab's claim for
Qa'imiyyat is outlined was quoted. Though I don't know exactly
what Tablet Fadil is mentioning, I am familiar with a powerful
Tablet by the Bab, quoted by Abbas Alavi, where His station of
Qa'imiyyat is clearly and emphatically established.)
P82-85: Arabic, 3 pages, the Bab's Tablet addressed to Muhammad
Shah. The Bab wrote a total of at least 5 Tablets to Muhammad Shah
(for a discussion of them see my humble series of articles on the
Writings of the Bab in Payam-i Baha'i of last year). In these
Tablets, He gradually unleashed the wrath of God towards this
indecisive monarch who failed to recognize Him.
P85-89: Arabic, 4 pages, in this Tablet addressed to Haj Mirza
Aqasi, the Bab in the strongest language rebukes the incompetent
Prime Minister, assures his of his downfall and eternal damnation.
(Mirza Aqasi received a total of 3 Tablet from the Bab, and I
believe this must be the very last one addressed to him. On page
94, Fadil mentions that the other two Tablets addressed to this man
are quoted in ZH-2.)
P90: Persian, 0.2 pages, a brief extract from the Persian Bayan
where He refers to the building He occupied in Isfahan and the
significance and exalted character of all buildings associated with
Him.
P106: Arabic, 0.2 pages, a brief extract where He refers to one of
the Letters of the Living, Mulla Ali-y Bastami, (the first to leave
Shiraz for Iraq) and says that he recognized the truth by a single
verse without requiring any other proofs.
P106: Arabic, 0.4 pages, a brief extract from the Bab's Tablet of
Visitation for Imam Ali where Mulla Ali Bastami is referred to as
the "gem of the believers" and much praise is showered upon him.
P107: Arabic, 0.1 pages, a sentence out of the 2nd Tablet
addressed to Shaykh Muhammad Hasan (who is also mentioned in the
Kitab-i Aqdas as the one who failed to recognized the Bab, and he
is the author of 24 volumes "Javahiru'l-Kalam" (an encyclopedia of
Islamic law) -- the most useless pile of nonsense ever assembled!),
where Mulla Ali-y Bastami is referred to as to "the one who
prostrated himself before Me".
P122-24: Arabic, 2 pages, a general proclamatory Tablet of the Bab
to "the people of Bayan" where all believers are urged to "hasten
to the land of Kh (Khurasan)" to attain the presence of Mulla
Husayn, engage in teaching the Faith there, and render [Mulla]
Husayn victorious. (Husayn is mentioned a few times in this
Tablet, and I firmly believe that it alludes also to Baha'u'llah.)
This Tablet begs to be translated. Its powerful. Pulsates with
call to action and majestic language.
Well, I've bored you all enough for one posting, we'll pick it up
again later.
much love to all, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:31:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: tarjuman@umich.edu
Subject: Baha'u'llah's notes to Ode of the Dove
I am slowly continuing to digitalize my translation of Baha'u'llah's
notes to his "Ode of the Dove," a mystical poem written in Sulaymaniyyah,
a provisional translation of which I posted earlier. Here is the note to
verse 8:
7. The mistral's fragrance wafted from Her hair,
and Beauty's eyes were solaced by Her gaze.
8. Her shining face gave Guidance sage advice,
and Moses' soul was cleansed by Her form's blaze.
8. When Moses cleansed and sanctified the feet of the divine Self,
Who had been consigned to human form, from the sandals of
contingent fancies and drew forth the hand of divine Power from the
fold of grandeur in the cloak of splendor, He arrived in the holy, good
and blessed valley of the heart. This is the base of the throne of
everlasting effulgence and the seat of divine and glorious converse.
And when He reached that land of Sinai, which lieth outstretched to
the right of the illumined Spot, He smelled the perfumed odor of the
Spirit from east of eternity, and perceived the undying lights from all
directions, without direction. After the darkened glass of self had been
removed, the wick of the divine Essence blazed forth in the lamp of his
heart, ignited by the passionate scent of godly love and the flaming
brand of the fire of divine unity. And after the stations of opposition
had been eliminated, He arrived in the valley of eternal sobriety
through the wine of the attainment to an incomparable Countenance
and the pure nectar of the imperishable.
Through the attractive power of His longing for the divine
Meeting, He became aware of the city of everlasting life. "He entered
the city at a time when its people were heedless" (Q. 28:15). And
behold, He discerned the fire of the timeless godhead, and shone with
the light of the Almighty God. He said to His family, "Do ye tarry
here. Verily, I observe a fire" (Q. 20:10). When He discovered and
perceived the visage of pre-existent, most gracious Guidance in the
tree that is neither of the east nor the west (Q. 24:35), the changeable
and ephemeral face was honored and glorified by attaining to the
ancient, imperishable Countenance. In the blazing fire He discovered
the wondrous, inaccessible visage of Guidance which had been
concealed in the bosoms of the Unseen. This is that to which He then
gave utterance: "or I shall find guidance in this fire." (Q. 20:10).
Even so, perceive ye the intent of the blessed verse, "He who
made for ye fire from the green tree." (Q. 36:80). O would that there
were a listener to comprehend it, and that one drop from the vast
ocean of fire, one spark from the storehouse of flames, could be
mentioned. But it is better, after all, that this pearl remain hidden
within the shell of pure longing and stored in the vessels of secrecy,
that every stranger might be excluded and every intimate friend may be
garbed in pilgrim's dress before the Ka`bah of splendor, that he may
enter the sanctuary of beauty. How happy is the soul that consumes
the cage of the body in the flames of the fire of love, and becomes the
familiar of the Spirit, that he may attain unto the exalted mercy of
repose, and that the lofty bounty of glory may be bestowed upon him.
All that of which mention hath been made concerning the ranks
of guidance and the grades of self-purification in the station of Moses-
-may peace be upon Him and our Prophet--hath reference to the
manifestation of these effulgences in the world of outward
appearances. Otherwise, that Exalted One was always and shall
forever be led by the guidance of God. Nay, more, it was from Him
that the sun of guidance dawned and the moon of God's grace
appeared. It was from His essential being that the flames of the divine
Essence were ignited, and from the brilliance of His forehead that the
light of eternity became radiant. He Himself resolved such doubts by
the words He spoke when questioned by Pharaoh about the man He
had killed. He responded, "I did it indeed, and I was one of those who
erred. And I fled from you when I feared you; but My Lord hath given
Me judgment and hath made Me One of the Apostles." (Q. 26:20-21).
The discourse hath come to an end, though in truth this matter is
inexhaustible and unending.
Note: This passage is extremely important for Baha'u'llah's
theophanology, since it explains how he thought the Manifestation of God
could *both* be spoken of as traversing various spiritual stations and
growing in spiritual stature *and* could be spoken of as an eternal sun
of guidance. The former diction has to do with the tajalli or
effulgence/manifestation of these attributes in the external world, while
the latter diction has to do with the esoteric world. The metaphysical
assumptions here, as Nima will recognize, derive from the Ibn al-`Arabi
tradition. Baha'u'llah's solution is important, because otherwise Moses'
admission in the Qur'an that he was among the sinners or those gone
astray (Da:lli:n) appears to contradict the Shi`ite/Babi tenet of the
`iSmat or infallibility/immaculacy of the Prophets. Here is evidence
that Baha'u'llah thought prophets could commit murder exoterically while
maintaining their immaculacy esoterically (presumably on the level of the
Universal Intellect).
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 10:20:56 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Dastardly Plot.
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
My dear Talismanians
Due to dark forces at work , we had no power at Bosch until late last
night from Monday . So I have just scanned the wide variety of messages
. I shall be posting on Sunday the True story of Linda in DC . Also I
have some interesting information on removal of rights in the USA
Baha'i Community which I will post as well the publishing issue .
Last night I was asked to go to a special fireside in San Jose . The
San Jose Chief of Police and the Chairman of the San Jose Airport
Commission came to hear about the Faith , great fireside went on after
10.30 started at 7.00 . We are meeting them again to continue.
Did you miss me Linda?
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Subject: Darwin on the Brain...
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:06:10 -0600 (CST)
>
> Robert Johnston wrote
> >>Clearly Darwin's view must be reconciled with 'Abdu'l-Baha's. And I refer
> particularly to Darwin's failure to see that -- to paraphrase 'Abdu'l-Baha--
> "man was always man."
Sandy Fotos wrote:
>
> Some Baha'i friends in the natural sciences (and me too, since I have a
> background in maine botany )have felt that this statement refers to
> potentiality rather than to morphology.
>
> The particular line which would eventually evolve into humans was always
> distinct and identifiable in terms of its future direction, although not in
> terms of its physical appearance vis a vis other organisms.
>
> Again, may I argue for the longitudinal perspective?
I guess I see this point coming up again and again among Baha'is, that is:
physically humans resemble animals but their line was distinct all along...
I just want to say that in terms of the natural sciences, I can see no way
whatsoever of making this a meaningful statement. In other words you can make
the claim that a billion years ago Amoeba A mutated and gave rise to one
lineage of organisms and Amoeba B mutated and gave rise to another lineage of
organisms including humans, however there would be no empirical way of
demonstrating that Amoeba A and Amoeba B were distinct in some significant way
(at least biologically/physically) such that humans had to evolve from
Amoeba B rather than Amoeba A. As far was I can see the only way to make the
distinction of humans from other creatures, all along, plausible in any way
is to argue the point metaphysically/metaphorically. This,
argument,however, rests primarily on Faith rather than empirical verifiability
and will tend to carry little weight with individuals outside of the Faith.
A variation on the separateness of humans theme is to point out how distinct
humans are in terms of their non-physical qualities; that is, physically
humans resemble animals, but "spiritually" they are distinct and have been all
along. The "hard" response from your average biologist will be that what
distinguishes humans is their sophisticated brain, which incidentally, evolved
physically along with the rest of the body. This is a very tough problem to
think about and we need good thinking on this issue to become more convincing
to the rest of the world.
I don't mean to sound cynical or negative, but I've tended to observe a
tendency within the Baha'i community to gloss over these sorts of issues, which
are actually of fundamental importance in properly "squaring" reason with
faith.. How can we make a convincing case that
humans are not extremely sophisticated animals, what arguments can we make
that it's not just a better brain that distinguishes us; why argue that we
have a soul or talk about "spirituality" if it might all amount to having better
biochips in head!! We can do it, but we need to try!! Philosophers of
science grab your pens!!!
OK, I'll get off my soap-box now...
Warmest Regards to All!
Ken
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 14:26:53
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Ahang Rabbani"
Subject: Re[2]: Quddus
Have we any idea whether the number "500,000" was meant to be literal
or figurative? For example, in *God Passes By* Shoghi Effendi says
Baha'u'llah composed one hundred volumes of works. We now know he
wrote 15,000-20,000 tablets, but the Guardian did not have access to
such a statistic; under such circumstances, "100 volumes" is an
excellent way of making the scale of Baha'u'llah's revelation
apparent. But the number probably is not literal.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Quddus
Author: "Ahang Rabbani" at INTERNET
Date: 12/16/95 11:17 AM
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Sen,
You wrote:
> On 9 November Ahang posted a piece on Quddus's Commentary on the Sad
> of Samad, in which he said that this was variously stated as being
> 500,000 verses and 6 times as long as the Quran. The later figure
> should at any rate be a 3: the reference is on p 357:
> In the days of his confinement in the town of Sari, Quddus, whom
> Mirza Muhammad-Taqi had requested to write a commentary on the Surih
> of Ikhlas, better known as the Surih of Qul Huva'llahu'l-Ahad,
> composed, in his interpretation of the Sad of Samad alone, a treatise
> which was thrice as voluminous as the Qur'an itself.
Actually the passage you quote continues to say:
"That exhaustive and masterly exposition had profoundly impressed
Mirza Muhammad-Taqi and had been responsible for the marked
consideration which he showed towards Quddus, although in the end he
joined the Sa'idu'l-'Ulama' in compassing the death of the heroic
martyrs of Shaykh Tabarsi. Quddus continued, while besieged in that
fort, to write his commentary on that Surih, and was able, despite
the vehemence of the enemy's onslaught, to pen as many verses as he
had previously written in Sari in his interpretation of that same
letter."
The way I read these, and I'm very much open to receiving corrections,
is that Quddus wrote half of it, 3 times the size of Qur'an in Sari and
then the second half, hence a total of 6 Qur'an, at Fort Tabarsi. Does
that make sense? Did I misread Nabil?
The passage in the Dawnbreakes continues yet to say:
"The rapidity and copiousness of his composition, the inestimable
treasures which his writings revealed, filled his companions with
wonder and justified his leadership in their eyes. They read eagerly
the pages of that commentary which Mulla Husayn brought to them each
day and to which he paid his share of tribute."
Believe me (and if you don't ask Juan Cole who knows Quddus infinitely
better than I), these statement are so true. His composition is so
fantastic that it overwhelms.
> I assume that the 500,000 is mythical rather than arithmetical in the
> case of Quddus: what about the Bab? Give his long confinement and the
> availability of secretaries, is 500,000 verses entirely unrealistic
> in his case?
Again, for now, I'm sticking to my theory that certain references to
Quddus and the Bab are mixed up because of the identical titles that
they had and that's where Nabil got confused over 500,000 verses for
Quddus.
The figure for the total amount of Bab's Writings as 500,000 verses, as
you well know, comes form the Persian Bayan. Now that was written mid
point (3 years) into his Ministry. Of the remaining years, He wrote
very little (actually only massive Tablets of Visitation for Quddus and
Mulla Husayn) and a Persian work, and a few other odds and ends, from
May 1849 (Quddus' martyrdom) to July 1850. So basically the last 14
months of His life He composed little.
That leaves us with nearly 2 years between the time of His statement in
the Persian Bayan to May 1849. He must have composed many, many items
during this period, so in my view 500,000 is a gross underestimate.
Besides look at the volume of His Writings contained in INBA series.
Its huge. I don't know how many verses, but its huge.
Now, does it add up to 7 or 8 hundred thousands verses (or at least
500,000 as testified in the Persian Bayan)? No way! Probably half of
it. Maybe even less. Ergo, a large chunk (half?) is missing. But the
rumor has it that there is hope .... ;-}
Do others (John, Juan, Lambden...) have a thought on these? I for one
am very interested to learn what you have to share.
regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 14:26:49
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: 90s pub stats
Fascinating statistics. But they need to be normalized to
English-language membership to be useful. The Baha'is probably have
about 250,000 English language speakers worldwide; the Mormons, five
million (4.5 million of the some 8 million Mormons woldwide live in
the U.S.); the Adventists, a million or so (there are 750,000 Seventh
Day Adventists in the US alone). Spiritualism is a vaguely defined
movement and I don't know what the estimates for membership are, but
it is also a subject of a lot of popular and scholarly literature.
The Christian Scientists probably have about twice the
English-speaking membership of the Faith worldwide, so their numbers
are comparable.
It is not clear to me that one can conclude much about the impact of
prepublication review from the statistics below. Considering how
obscure we are in academia, the number of publications listed below
seems pretty good to me.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: 90s pub stats
Author: "K. Paul Johnson" at INTERNET
Date: 12/15/95 4:00 PM
One last time-- it occurred to me that it would be more
instructive in terms of measuring the effect of current policy
to look at current publishing rates. So I got just the 1990s
publications, all formats, all languages, for the six groups in
question. Theosophy falls to last place, showing our lack of
membership growth in the last few decades, but Baha'i still lags
way behind all the others: Mormon 1886, Adventist 1107, Spiritualist
673, Christian Science 359, Baha'i 255, Theosophy 191. On a
per capita basis, I think the Theosophists are still the
bibliophiles par excellence.
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 14:53:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Paul Easton
To: Talisman
Subject: Re-Intro and Ignorant Questions...
Allah'u'abha!
After having been unsubscribed from Talisman for some time I have decided
to jump in again. However I chose to do so at an inopportune time - as
I have 6 finals next week, so I don't expect to be very active in the
discussions for a week or so.
My name is Paul Chistopher Easton and I am an undergraduate ( soon to be
2nd Semester Senior ) at the the University of Wisconsin - Stevens
Point. My major is International Studies, with an Asian emphasis and a
Religious Studies minor.
I became a Baha'i two years ago in Taiwan where I was teaching English as
a respite from school. I speak "survival Chinese" ( excuse me, waiter!
my snails are still moving... ) and - if all goes well - I'll be studying
Chinese full-time next fall at the Mandarin Training Center, National
Taiwan Normal University on a scholarship - would it be innappropriate to
ask for a few prayers for acceptance to be directed my way?
My interest in Baha'i Scholarship began when I returned to the United
States. My great-great grandfather, Peter Z. Easton, was a missionary in
Tabriz. Thinking that perhaps he would have known something about the
Babi and Baha'i Faiths I began searching for his writings. Under one
search (this still being before I had actually read any of Peter Z's
writings) the name Mirza Abu'l-Fadl appeared. That sounded promising, so
I posted to BAHAI-DICUSS asking if anyone had heard of this person, esp.
in connection with Peter Z. Easton. Well I'm still tasting the
aftertaste of my foot, but I do appreciate the help and kindness offered
by those who did respond.
Since then Mirza Abu'l-Fadl has become one of my heros, not only as a
Baha'i scholar, but also a man who had overcome both his earlier hubris
and quite an addiction to nicotine. Both of which I have had to deal
with my self.
An on-going project is still trying to dig up more info on Peter Z.
Easton and to find out what happened to his library in Tabriz after he
died.
Also, I am interested in studying the Baha'i Faith in China, and in East
Asia in general.
Interests also include: canoeing, backpacking, HTML, Richard Braughtigan,
Eastern Religious Philosophy, relationships, people and thinking about
those things that I will never be able to understand - in hopes that I
may grasp a few of the little problems in life.
Pet peeves include: scholars who tackle each other instead of issues and
people who complain about the weather more than once a day.
This is longer than I had intended it to be, I need to study for my
finals and the computer lab I'm at is closing. So I will have to save my
ignorant questions for later. Glad to be back! Looking forward to
fruitful discussions.
Yours,
_____________________________________________________________________________
Paul C. Easton
_____________________________________________________________________________
HOME || WORK
________________________________________||___________________________________
2321 Jersey Street || UW-Stevens Point
Stevens Point, WI 54481 || International Programs
|| Stevens Point, WI 54481-3897
PHONE: (715) 344-4174 || PHONE: (715) 346-2717
E-MAIL: peaston@worf.uwsp.edu || FAX: (715) 346-3591
________________________________________||___________________________________
O Lord! make us firm in Thy love and cause us to be loving toward the
whole of mankind. Confirm us in service to the world of humanity, so
that we may become the servants of Thy servants, that we may love all Thy
creatures and become compassionate to all Thy people. -`Abdu'l-Baha'
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 15:00:14
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain...
I quite agree with Ken; we can only understand humanity as "separate"
in some sort of metaphorical way. If we assume that humanity as a
species has always been biologically separate from all other life on
earth, then we must dismiss anatomical and biochemical similarities as
coincidence. And when one considers that our genetic material is 98%
similar to chimpanzees this would be an extraordinary argument indeed.
It would be about as scientifically meaningful as the argument that
Genesis and evolution can be reconciled by realizing the devil created
the fossils. When one takes such an approach, the harmony of science
and religion collapses.
But I think there are also philosophical problems with `Abdu'l-Baha's
argument even when it is taken as a metaphorical statement. The best
way of reconciling `Abdu'l-Baha and evolution is to argue that the
first life form on earth was the ancestor of all life on earth, and
therefore was the ancestor of humanity as well, and thus was
"potentially human." As life evolved and species split off the trunk
of the tree that led to modern homo sapiens sapiens, they ceased to
have the potential to be human and thus were ordinary life forms.
Presumably this means that at the level of individual life forms that
one individual had the potential to be human because it produced
descendants that eventually were us, whereas the individual's brother
produced descendants that became something else. Thus within one
"family" some members were potentially human and others were not, and
thus some had souls and others did not. Yet the individuals might not
have had any significant genetic differences between them; it might be
that X was potentially human because of something a great great great
granddaughter did accidentally that led to that line's survival and
mutation into something slightly different, whereas Y had one
descendant who accidentally fell off a cliff before reproducing, and
thus Y is not potentially human.
Obviously, scientists would be very uncomfortable with the theoretical
and untestable notion that individual amoeba X had a soul and her
brother amoeba Y did not. So we must remember that this idea exists
and makes sense only in the realms of theology, not in the realm of
science. We can hardly fault Darwin for that.
Another interesting implication of `Abdu'l-Baha's theory is that it
turns the usual popular conception of evolution on its head: evolution
was not the ascent of man, but the descent of everything else from
man. Strange.
But perhaps all of this is to philosophize too much. It is better to
remember (1) `Abdu'l-Baha was making theological statements, not
scientific ones, and possibly not even philosophical ones; and (2)
this should be viewed in the realm of metaphor, and metaphors can
never be pushed too far.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Darwin on the Brain...
Author: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu at INTERNET
Date: 12/16/95 1:33 PM
>
> Robert Johnston wrote
> >>Clearly Darwin's view must be reconciled with 'Abdu'l-Baha's. And I refer
> particularly to Darwin's failure to see that -- to paraphrase 'Abdu'l-Baha--
> "man was always man."
Sandy Fotos wrote:
>
> Some Baha'i friends in the natural sciences (and me too, since I have a
> background in maine botany )have felt that this statement refers to
> potentiality rather than to morphology.
>
> The particular line which would eventually evolve into humans was always
> distinct and identifiable in terms of its future direction, although not in
> terms of its physical appearance vis a vis other organisms.
>
> Again, may I argue for the longitudinal perspective?
I guess I see this point coming up again and again among Baha'is, that is:
physically humans resemble animals but their line was distinct all along...
I just want to say that in terms of the natural sciences, I can see no way
whatsoever of making this a meaningful statement. In other words you can make
the claim that a billion years ago Amoeba A mutated and gave rise to one
lineage of organisms and Amoeba B mutated and gave rise to another lineage of
organisms including humans, however there would be no empirical way of
demonstrating that Amoeba A and Amoeba B were distinct in some significant way
(at least biologically/physically) such that humans had to evolve from
Amoeba B rather than Amoeba A. As far was I can see the only way to make the
distinction of humans from other creatures, all along, plausible in any way
is to argue the point metaphysically/metaphorically. This,
argument,however, rests primarily on Faith rather than empirical verifiability
and will tend to carry little weight with individuals outside of the Faith.
A variation on the separateness of humans theme is to point out how distinct
humans are in terms of their non-physical qualities; that is, physically
humans resemble animals, but "spiritually" they are distinct and have been all
along. The "hard" response from your average biologist will be that what
distinguishes humans is their sophisticated brain, which incidentally, evolved
physically along with the rest of the body. This is a very tough problem to
think about and we need good thinking on this issue to become more convincing
to the rest of the world.
I don't mean to sound cynical or negative, but I've tended to observe a
tendency within the Baha'i community to gloss over these sorts of issues, which
are actually of fundamental importance in properly "squaring" reason with
faith.. How can we make a convincing case that
humans are not extremely sophisticated animals, what arguments can we make
that it's not just a better brain that distinguishes us; why argue that we
have a soul or talk about "spirituality" if it might all amount to having better
biochips in head!! We can do it, but we need to try!! Philosophers of
science grab your pens!!!
OK, I'll get off my soap-box now...
Warmest Regards to All!
Ken
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:11:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: Paul Easton
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Re: Re-Intro and Ignorant Questions...
On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, Paul Easton wrote:
> My interest in Baha'i Scholarship began when I returned to the United
> States. My great-great grandfather, Peter Z. Easton, was a missionary in
> Tabriz.
This is fascinating. Are you a first-generation Baha'i? I always
suspected that someone in the Easton family was friendly to the Faith,
because on two different occassions I have come accross postcards from
Peter Z. Easton (from Tabriz) dating from the late nineteenth century, in
the papers of Baha'is: once in the Los Angeles Baha'i Archives and once in the
papers Charles Mason Remey at Yale. In neither instance was there in
indication
as to how the cards got there, but I suspected that someone in his family
might have given them to Baha'i friends because they depicted sites in Iran.
> An on-going project is still trying to dig up more info on Peter Z.
> Easton and to find out what happened to his library in Tabriz after he
> died.
I belive there is correspondence from and biographical material about
Peter Z. Easton in the holdings of the Presbyterian Historical Society, in
Philadelphia.
Cheers,
Richard
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 18:02:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Baha'i Encyclopedia / Zuhurul Haq
Dear Ahang and All,
Hopefully we can learn from past mistakes. One note though:
Ali Akbar Furutan has a special place in the hearts of
Baha'is - especially Iranian Baha'is (he is probably thought
of the same as William Sears is thought of in the West). Most likely
due to his incredible memory - I was in Haifa in May and the fortune
of meeting him - he is in his late 80's or early 90's. When I introduced
myself and told him where my father was from, he immediately remembered
something about that area and my father's greater family. Ofcourse
that does not say anything about his actions in the Fadil Mazandarani
episode.
It seems from what you said Mazandarani decided not to press
the issue with the Guardian. It also seems that he did not stop
his scholarship - just did not let many people know about it.
Hopefull, someday soon we can benefit from his works -
which btw sound incredibly massive.
As you probably guessed by now I have another of my
suggestions - being hopelessly optimistic I'll keep
suggesting until somebody says stop :-) And even then,
my conscience will say to keep at it ;-)
May be we can vote on the following: to formally ask
the staff of the World Centre's Research Department to
come online to Talisman - and not just as lurkers. The
give and take, I feel, can be beneficial - Robert Stockman
who is the director of the US Research Office is online;
a fact that I think the other scholars present here
(and the rest of us) greatly appreciate.
And one observation: can we not assume that since
Talisman is here and has the tacit approval of the
House that there has been a passive change in policy
with regards to scholarship: we have seen provisional
translations, Baha'i Encyclopedia articles, the
"Service of Women" paper, threads on just about every
conroversial subject within the Faith - all without
review.
In spite of the occasional food fights (and I have thrown my
share of tomatoes) this is a watershed event - I hope we can
make the best of it.
take care,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 13:44:31 +1200
To: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain...
Dear Ken,
You wrote:
"This,
argument,however, rests primarily on Faith rather than empirical verifiability
and will tend to carry little weight with individuals outside of the
Faith."
Response: One can't bend reality so that it suits the candy-floss fantasies
of a bewildered humanity.
The '"hard" response from your average biologist' is a pretty cynical
position. Why accord it any real value?
If we accept humanity in a foetus then, logically, why should be not accord
humanity to our ancestor who looked like a possum?
I yawn, actually. How many times does it need to be stated that the Baha'i
conception of science is not limited to empiricism...before it really sinks
in.
Robert (a barking ant with a long nose in a black mood) Johnston.
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 13:52:17 +1200
To: "Stockman, Robert" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain...
Robert Stockman wrote:
It is better to
> remember (1) `Abdu'l-Baha was making theological statements, not
> scientific ones, and possibly not even philosophical ones;
This appears to marginalise the station of 'Abdu'l-Baha to the outskirts of
science. Even the fool Heidegger knew that modern science was a mere
branch of metaphysics. Robert, if you can prove 'Abdu'l-Baha wrong, then
I'll listen. If you can't then I humbly suggest you give Him the benefit
of the doubt...[at least]
Robert (barking mad on a long black Sunday afternoon) Johnston
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 14:02:47 +1200
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: intelligent readers
Linda,
Your wrote:
>Robert, the answer to your question as to whether we have any intelligent
>readers of history (incl. evolution) is: YES! Linda
Oh? Please name someone here who has understood the Baha'i teachings on
evolution, has reconciled them with Darwinism, and has provided ( or is
able to provide) scholarly evidence of his/her insights? Really, this is
just the same old Socrates story in a different outfit. Why don't we go
back and fight that one out again? I'd really love to hear the comments of
John and Juan re. the House letter.
Robert (a long black springing dog-ant) Johnston
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 21:08:54 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Baha'u'llah's notes to Od...
Juan : Goodness this just keeps getting better . You already know I
am partial to this "poem ". Are there more notes to this as well ?
For what its worth it seems to me there is a liturgical feast herein
as well as among additional of Baha u llah's works along the same lines .
All it takes is a little imagination and permission for the friends to
explore this revelatory material . One of the things that is always painfully
aware to me when speaking with members of other religious traditions is the
paucity of criticl work that would constitute a body of spirituality. It is
material like this which aids considerably in building that "praxis " . I
for one appreciate a great deal the time and effort tha goes into all this .
The fruits , if the friends will make use of it , will be enormous . It will
also go a long way to demonstrating to and for others that there is a very
real sense of spirituality in the Faith of Bahau llah. This one I am going
to be sharing with the Jewish folks I made reference to earlier in Inter
-faith dialogue .
There is a Syrian Orthodox priest whom I have known for several years
now - he is well aware of the Faith - who I have discussed some of this with
. He is a deeply virtuous man
and one of his remaeks a few years back to me was that of the material on
the Faith he had seen was much like the kind of things that children are
taught in Sunday schools . He wondered where the "heart" of the Faith was
its spiritual praxis . Lasat spring I shared with him your original "Ode"
translation and this summer Stephens work on the Halih . He is beginning to
think there may be something substantive about this Bahu llah thing after all
other than that I may happen to be an intersting guy . He is not likely to
become a Bahai and thst is not my goal, frankly, but he does have a more
favorable view of "Bahai" than before . Again it just opens up doors for
"consorting with the followers of all religions in friendliness and
fellowship ." He and I have on occasion , amidst the light and incense of
the church recited together the "Jesus Prayer " . Whew - now that is a
powereful one . I have already informed him that a little spiritual quid pro
quo requires the same with regard to some things from the "Ode" and "Halih"
and the song of the Heavenly Dove ( Her song as Baha says after all ) " Thou
art God . There is no God but Thee. He has let me practice to my hearts
content the "Alastu bi rabbikun" over the years .
To make a long story short I hope you and others will continue to make
available this kind of Bahau llahs work . I hope some critical work will be
done as well . I have so little to give my orthodox friend that addresses
context and commentary; the kind of work that makes Revelation come alive and
like a great story you just cant wait to tell others . It is in the
spiritual praxis that grows out of worship that lies transformation - and our
ability to truly attract the hearts of the world .
FOR JOHN : A reminder the *Deathless Youth* :)
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 21:29:22 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: standing by my words
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Robert, I do think that Ken and Rob's excellent responses on the subject
of evolution are quite adequate to prove my point that there are highly
intelligent and knowledgeable people here on Talisman who can explain the
concept quite adequately. I refuse to return to the bad old days when science
had to conform to theology. And, I trust you read the posting from Juan of
Abdu'l Baha's talk in New York. This says it all. We should not follow
blindly.
I feel quite confident that, if the information we have now on evolution were
available to Abdu'l Baha, that he would have explained things differently. He
was not a scientist. He was a true religious leader - a moral guide for us to
follow. It belittles his station (in my eyes) to make him into some cult
figure who somehow had all knowledge of all aspects of life. This was not his
claim, Robert. We should read his words to feed our hearts, not to nit pick
about scientific issues. Let's leave that to the scientists, please!!
I found Ahang's posting about the story of Fadil to be both fascinating and
heart wrenching. I suppose I can relate so strongly to it because of the
Encyclopoedia project. Three cheers for the battle against Fundamentalism!
And, Derek. Long may your power outage continue.
Dear friends, just as I was posting this note to Derek, the telphone rang. It
was my dear nemisis, Derek. He and Burl now have a campaign of telephone
torment. I will never be left in peace. I dread tuning into Talisman on
Monday for the Derek and Burl scandal hour. They admit to conspiring against
me. Is this the example that Abdu'l Baha gave us? Should we not be asking
ourselves, would Abdu'l Baha approve of Derek and Burl's treatment of me? (We
are supposed to ask ourselves questions like that, aren't we?) By the way,
Burl has unsubscribed from Talisman for the week. However, I do believe that
he will be sorry. I suggest that everyone forward their messages to Burl this
week to make sure he has plenty of reading material when he returns. Thank you
in advance for your cooperation in this matter. Linda
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 22:11:36 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Evolution
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I remember smugly telling seekers at firesides that because Baha'is
believed in the harmony of science and religion, we would not be in
the foolish position of having to deny the discoveries of modern
biology. I have a private theory that before God absolves me and
leaves me in peace as a Baha'i, all the things that I did while I was
young and fanatical will be visited on my head.
The following is a paragraph I wrote for the article on evolution in
the Baha'i Encyclopedia:
*******
AB's statements on evolution reflect the unease of many thoughtful
religious people of the time at the use and misuse of Darwinist concepts.
Evolution was being used as a justification for the abandonment of
traditional religious and spiritual ideas, of standards of decency and
kindness, and of the social solidarity that made the rich and powerful
responsible for the well-being of the poorer and weaker memebers of
society. The formulation given in this talk is clearly AB's attempt to
offer a way out of this dilemma, using the philosophical and theological
concepts of the sophisticated Iranian philosophical tradition, which since
the work of the great philosopher Mulla Sadra in the 17th century, had
seen the transformation of substance as a key to understanding the
deepest nature of being and the godhead. Thus, AB's statements on
evolution should be read not literally as corrections to a particular
scientific theory but as affirmations that scientific truth must be
understood in the context of a spiritual view of the universe.
*********
As to the larger question of Abdu'l-Baha's omniscience on scientific and
scholarly matters, I offer the following anecdote. Those who have
heard it before, such as my dear wife, may go on to the next posting:
When I was in Haifa on pilgrimage some years ago, as custom dictates
I went to pray at the deathbed of Abdu'l-Baha. Now, since this was
day eight, not counting the earlier visits to Jerusalem, Bethleham, and
Nazareth, I was rather shrined out. I knelt by the bed, assumed the
expression of pious blankness learned in childhood, and tried to read
the titles of the books on the bedside table that, I fancied, were being
read to Abdu'l-Baha during his last illness. One was a volume of
the *Da'irat al-Ma'arif*, the first great modern Arabic encyclopedia.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 19:49:59 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: standing by my words
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
X-To: PO%"talisman"
Subject: standing by my words
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
Precedence: bulk
!
And, Derek. Long may your power outage continue.
''My Dear Linda
Your worst nightmare happened not only has the power been restored but
my computor has been given the kiss of life , back again to bring the
truth to the nations .''
Dear friends, just as I was posting this note to Derek, the telphone
rang. It
was my dear nemisis, Derek. He and Burl now have a campaign of
telephone
torment. I will never be left in peace. I dread tuning into Talisman
on
Monday for the Derek and Burl scandal hour. They admit to conspiring
against
me.
''Burl and I has good supportive friends naturally speak to each other.
Linda has locked John up in a cupboard under the stairs because he
tried to tell the truth over DC , is this the example of correct
behaviour ?''
Is this the example that Abdu'l Baha gave us? Should we not be asking
ourselves, would Abdu'l Baha approve of Derek and Burl's treatment of
me? (We
are supposed to ask ourselves questions like that, aren't we?) By the
way,
Burl has unsubscribed from Talisman for the week. However, I do
believe that
he will be sorry. I suggest that everyone forward their messages to
Burl this
week to make sure he has plenty of reading material when he returns.
Thank you
in advance for your cooperation in this matter. Linda
Would all those who feel Linda is being unfair to John please E'Mail
her and those who believe she is acting correctly please E"Mail her .
We would like a report , young lady , on this matter .
A Tit-bit from Monday's posting Linda caused a major problem by
carrying a large banner that read ' Shi'ite's Rule Forever 'at the
lecture on the 4 rightful Caliphs and throwing two custard pies at the
presenter . Her falling over on the bus was a result of grapping hold
of both ears of Nima's idol Sorush and hollering this is what Lyndon
Johnson did to the amazed bus riders. The poor chap now has sore
enlarged ears and hasn't a clue who Lyndon Johnson was . These and more
are some of the trials of John Walbridge at Mensa without the n in DC .
John may shortly be receiving a very high honor because of his trials
and tribulations with Linda , watch for Monday .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 21:53:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fadil
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Just got back from taking my boys to see Giumonji; absolutely a
must-see movie, filled with great action... though our 7 year old
will probably sleep in our bed tonight. Robin Williams is great.
This must be a brief note as I'm very tired. But judging by the
number of private emails, it clear that the memory of Fadil has
touched many hearts. I will deal with some of the specifics
privately. However do want to comment on a couple of things.
1. A dear friend objected to my comparison of Zuhuru'l-Haqq and
Encyclopedia project and specifically my use of the expression "a
lot of similarities" between the two. I really feel this friend is
right and there are not "a lot" of similarities between the two
events. After all:
one took place in Iran, the other in the States;
one was in 30's and 40's, the other in 80's and 90's;
one involved a single man, the other a whole Board;
one involved materials in Persian, the other is solely in English;
one required intervention of the Guardian, the other the House;
etc., etc., ...
Yes, I agree that there are not "a lot" of similarities, ... just
the tiny one that neither work has seen the light of day. Oh well,
I stand corrected.
2. Another wanted to know who the "bad guys" were in ZH's episode.
The answer to that question is very simple: there were none. On
one side of the debate was Fadil with his impeccable record, and on
the other side were folks like Ishraq-Khavari (a profoundly
magnificent man whom I love just as much as I love Fadil) plus the
NSA of Iran (4 of whom were elevated to the rank of the Hands and
again I deeply love and admire each of them and grew up with their
names on our lips and in our heart). So, when I say there were no
"bad guys", I mean exactly that! There was not a single person, in
my view, who acted out of self interest or maliciously.
The issues became complex. Remember that this debate spanned over
two decades, perhaps more, to unfold and there are many
correspondences from the beloved Guardian which I have not seen on
this subject, so its not just confined to the mickymouse letter that
the NSA published in 1951.
I just wanted to share my strong belief that this episode involved
men, each with historic contributions to the Cause, acting in the
very best interest of the community. As such, we must be very
careful not to oversimply the issues.
In this regard, there *is* a great deal of similarity between the ZH
episode and Encyclopedia project.
3. My comments about fundamentalism in the community is solely in
regard to the attitude of certain believes regarding the literal
exactness of the Dawnbreakers. Those who feel that the Dawnbreakers
is the "standard" in the sense that it contains no error, well here
is a news flash: You are wrong.
With that, I'm off to bed.
love, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 18:02:55 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality
Cc: lua@sover.net
Dear Luanne,
I have not yet seen another reply to your posting ( which I have
quoted below in full in case any others may have discarded it or misplaced
it) which I think and feel is one of the more profound and insightful
postings shared on Talisman since I have been a subscriber. Thank you for
sharing the "in-sights" from your journey of healing.
I urge others to read it and reread it for clues as to the "depth" dynamic
of what it is we are trying to "access" or get ahold of in terms of our
inherent human/spiritual nature. Unless one has started to access the
unconscious aspect of one's self by way of healing - using all the potency
of one's own determination alongside the powerful prayers given to us for
purposes of healing - it is difficult to understand the place you are
speaking from.
If one does not urge him/herself on in this task, however, crisis will
force the issue.
Of course, the crisis is already upon us. Will fears keep us up in our
heads and away from the underlying pain? - the energy we need to make it
through is being tied up in the futile attempts our bodies use to fend off
the pain. It is in embracing the pain, however, that we find the way to
release the energy used to defend ourselves -as you have intimated -
against loss of control. As with all things paradoxical in this mysterious
universe, by giving in we don't lose, we transform!
Without change through self-transformation, individuals tend to judge
the Faith, its Institutions, and other people, for example, with only the
tools of an unawakened lower human nature. The knowledge we of necessity
must seek, in order to grow, is pointed to in your posting. I hope many
Talisman readers will look at it again and ponder what you are telling us.
Luanne, are you a subscriber to the Baha'i-Intuition mailing list? If
not, may I have your permission to post your message on that list? There
may be a number of Baha'is interested in this area who subscribe to that
list but not to Talisman. Looking forward to hearing from you. I still
owe you a private response on the Marion Woodman book, which I haven't
gotten to yet.
Baha'i love, your brother, Henry
Luanne, in her posting entitled: Homosexuality, dated 12/14/95 wrote:
>The question I raise with regard to my own struggles to obey Baha'i law is:
>do I believe that Baha'u'llah has a prospective which I do not possess, and
>which is enjoined upon me for the benefit of my soul, or do I make wrong His
>perspective in favor of my own inclinations or for my own comfort. I have
>several friends who are homosexual or bisexual, and my impression of their
>inclinations is that this lifestyle is largely chosen (unconcsciously, for
>the most part) to avoid issues that are highly charged and emotionally very
>uncomfortable. It is easier for them to live this way in order not to have
>triggered much unfinished conflict, usually within their family of origin,
>and in order to support certain viewpoints gathered from such experience,
>such as "Men only want one thing," "So this is how men and women treat
>eachother after the courtship is over," "All women do is try to control
>you," etc. etc. etc. I am not meaning to oversimplify this issue, but in
>my own journey of healing I have encountered again and again distortions in
>my own thinking that subtlely controlled my behavior in ways that I didn't
>for most of my life understand and struggled like a fiend to try to make
>sense of or justify. These attitudes frequently don't even belong to us,
>but are broadcast in the very gestures of our parents and those around us
>when we are young. Until we uncover them and see their power over us, we go
>on making choices (usually unhealthy) that are based upon the operation of
>these distortions. Burl's posting addressed this very clearly. I am not
>saying that this is universally the case, but our family issues are at the
>root of most of our pathologies. It seems that these inclinations can occur
>very early in life, apparently as some natural state. Are not most of our
>idiosyncracies some sort of defense mechanism or coping skill formed in
>response to unpleasant or even unbearable situations? Supposing them to be
>our inherent qualities makes little more sense to me than supposing that we
>live many lifetimes in order to explain these character and personality traits.
>
>As far as genetics are concerned, I am no authority on this any topic,
>except my own search. So from the perspective that God tests his servants,
>perhaps even this genetic fluke, this accident of chromosomal arrangement is
>every bit His Will as the tests that all of us endure. I have my own set
>that I have spent years sorting through and continue to struggle with, and
>by and large, although the pain involved in facing my own history has been
>and is from time to time excruciating, I can see these events as a mercy in
>the long run - they have challenged me, have required that I surrender my
>will again and again and again in order to survive the onslaught of this
>world. We all suffer, we are all brought to our knees in one way or
>another, because most of us if given the choice would never choose this path.
>
>Someone mentioned chakras. This is one of those phenomena (like gravity),
>the source of which is unseen. I believe that they are qute literal, and
>consistent in their properties. The second chakra, the sex chakra is the
>center of sensuality and creativity. If there are distortions around issues
>such as whether or not we were touched as children, whether that touch was
>safe and appropriate, whether our creativity was encouraged, whether we were
>allowed some expression of that creativity, or had our need for touch and
>closeness validated, whether we experienced physical pleasure, or whether
>all of these healthy aspects of ourselves were suppressed/denied/kicked out
>of us, then disortions will arise in our interactions with others, in our
>abilty to relate in healthy ways to others. Sexual abuse and domestic
>violence does much to destroy our ability to relate to our own creative
>urges and yearnings, let alone our sensuality. The example of (was it you,
>David?) the woman who mistook her spritual yearning for sexual attraction is
>only one configuration of how this can play itself out in our interactions
>with other human beings.
>
>John Upledger, DO, founder of the Upledger Institute has done years of
>medical research (Michigan State University) on the nature of fascial
>restrictions and restrictions within the craniosacral membrane itself. He
>has discovered that the nature of all these restrictions is energetic, the
>sources of which can be physical, emotional, or spiritual in nature, yet
>they all manifest physically: at times as simple tissue restrictions, but
>they can ultimately lead to diseases in the organs and tissues (utilizing
>the meridian system) if the restriction remains over a period of time. In
>other words, the roots of many diseases are energetic (vibrational) in
>nature. Imagine that. Uncovering the traumatic source of the restriction
>can be accessed directly throught the tissue (it has memory and is
>consciously accessible). He has documented case after case of physical and
>psychological symptoms (as well as many learning disabilties) that have
>responded positively to Craniosacral Therapy and Somato Emotional Release
>techniques. He is no New Age cook or weirdo, but an osteopathic physician
>who is pioneering methods of treating "hopeless" or "inexplicable
>(psychosomatic)" conditions. The medical community is just beginning to
>give ear. Perhaps we need more time to uncover the various causes of
>homosexuality and need not rush to conclude that all the "scientific"
>evidence is in.
>
>I, too, have known several people who decided that they were homosexual,
>only to change their minds years later. With the current state of
>male/female relationships in this culture it is tempting to bag it and adopt
>an alternative lifestyle, gathering evidence along the way for why you are
>doing what you are doing. Again, I mean no offense, nor do I mean to making
>sweeping generalizations, or to take lightly the suffering that accompanies
>the decision or conclusion that one is gay. But it seems that the standard
>of modern Western culture is being upheld as the Truth in many postings and
>I have to question this. I have no idea what it is like to be a homosexual,
>I have not suffered the prejudices and inequities that homosexuals have
>suffered. Can we trust the Western Medical model any more than the mores of
>our society, that model being the product of this society? I long for
>something more.
>
>Loving Regards,
>LuAnne
Henry W. Miller
Martinez, California,U.S.A.
hwmiller@ccnet.com
hwmiller@eworld.com
510-372-0709
=END=
From: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain...
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 23:31:40 -0600 (CST)
Dear Robert you wrote:
>
> "This,
> argument,however, rests primarily on Faith rather than empirical verifiability
> and will tend to carry little weight with individuals outside of the
> Faith."
>
> Response: One can't bend reality so that it suits the candy-floss fantasies
> of a bewildered humanity.
Well I suppose the answer from our cynical biologist would be "One can't bend
reality so that it suits the candy-floss explanations of your theology". The
crux of the issue, I think, is to distinguish between those questions whose
answers can be determined experimentally (e.g. the physical relation of
species to one another) in principle and those issues, who by their very
nature, are not accessible to experimental proof (e.g. the existence of
God).
>
> The '"hard" response from your average biologist' is a pretty cynical
> position. Why accord it any real value?
>
> If we accept humanity in a foetus then, logically, why should be not accord
> humanity to our ancestor who looked like a possum?
Very Simple. The (physical) potential of a human foetus to become a
(morphologically) recognizable human being can be verified quite easily by
experimental means (e.g. genetic testing). The physical potential for a
possum to "become" human is demonstrably nil.
>
> I yawn, actually. How many times does it need to be stated that the Baha'i
> conception of science is not limited to empiricism...before it really sinks
> in.
It is not clear to me that empiricism (in the tradition of Hume) and empirical
validation (i.e. validation by repeated experience of multiple individuals)
are the same...I believe the latter is fully consistent with the
principles of the Faith.
Respectfully,
Ken
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 23:48:07 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Steve Jordan
Subject: Hello, Talisman
Hello All:
I have been lurking here on Talisman for the past few weeks, and realized
that I need to introduce myself.
I am 41, married, with a 10 year old daughter and a five year old son. I
live in a suburb of Houston (Friendswood) where I work for a large
aerospace company providing support for NASA. How I got in the aerospace
business after spending 10 years as a professional musician is still a
mystery to many (including myself), but here I am nonetheless.
On the spiritual front, I was a Baha'i for about five years, but upon
moving to the Houston area, pretty much fell away from the faith. I
currently attend a Unitarian Universalist church (I think one of my posts
from SRB found its way to Talisman a while back, so forgive me if you've
already heard this). I ended up here after pulling together a lesson on the
Baha'i faith for the Jr.Hi UU class I help teach. I am now in a quandary
since in researching this lesson, I came to the conclusion that I am more
in tune with the Baha'is than with UUism. Thus I am taking a good look at
my own spiritual path/belief system and reinvestigating the Baha'i Faith.
For Anton: Hi. Good to see you made it here.
For Mark Foster: I see that you teach at JCCC. This is where I really
discovered the Baha'i Faith. Upon quitting the music business in 1983, I
returned to school - first stop JCCC (a wonderful school, BTW). My uncle,
Dan Jordan, had been murdered about two years prior. I had heard that he
was Co-Chairman of the NSA (though I had no idea what that was), and the
only newspaper account I had of his murder said that an Iranian group had
claimed credit for the deed (to my knowledge, it has never been solved).
So, there I was wandering around the JCCC library one day, when I happened
upon the religion section. I saw the book "Baha'i World Faith" and decided
to see what Dan Jordan may have died for. I opened the book to the twelve
principles and my search began. I took that book home and read it, the
whole time thinking that this is what I had always believed, but had never
seen it laid out like this before.
Eventually I found a class being offered through the Communiversity (a sort
of Free University in Kansas City) called "One Planet, One People, Please."
I thought the title sounded Baha'ish, and sure enough it was a class at the
KC Baha'i Center. Mary Rowe taught the course and did a wonderful job of
introducing me to the history and tenets of the Baha'i Faith. BTW, if she
is still around, please tell her hello for me. I declared about a year or
so later, and remained fairly active until relocating to Houston in 1988.
There you have it. Probably more than you wanted to know, but far be it
from me to go against Talisman customs and Maori etiquette. I look forward
to hearing from you all.
Regards,
Steve
jordan@iapc.net
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Evolution
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 23:47:05 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
I have read with interest recent posts which attempt to reconcile
remarks made by the Master to L.C. Barney with classical evolutionary
theory (Darwin and Spencer). I doubt that the issues involved will be
resolved all at once. The harmony of science and religion, as envisioned
in the Baha'i teachings, has not yet been realized. Once this unity of
thought has been achieved, humanity will begin to see reality from an
entirely different standpoint. Moreover, I do not think that we have
any way of knowing with certainty what new insights and methodologies
this remarkable development will produce. IMV, it is far too premature
at this point to make any definitive statements.
Although I appreciate the views of those who argue that there is a
biological link between hominid and animal evolution (whether man from
the animals or the animals from man), I have difficulty making this
connection from a Baha'i standpoint. The animal is emanated by the
animal spirit (the purposeful power of sensation), the vegetable spirit
(the purposeful power of growth), and the mineral spirit (the purposeful
power of cohesion). It lacks the human spirit and, consequently, does
not have the ability, potentially or otherwise, to engage in rational
thought. The animal is also absent the spirit of faith and, as a result,
cannot receive the divine blessings which come to a being who has
consciously recognized the inner evidences of divine Revelation.
To my understanding, the human spirit and the spirit of faith are
the twin purposeful powers of the soul. These powers, and their various
manifestations, are what distinguishes humanity from the animal kingdom.
Although man is outwardly like the higher mammals, he is, from a
spiritual POV, able to function on an altogether different plane of
existence - the spiritual Kingdom revealed.
As I see it, the similarity between man and the apes is a sign of
the divine ordering of creation. It teaches us about the purposefulness
of evolution - a dimension of science which is unattainable using the
normal tools of empirical research. It is, IMHO, one of the hidden, or
esoteric, implications of the evolutionary process.
And could the similarity between man and the apes also be a symbol
vehicle for our human potentialities? IOW, despite the many genetic
similarities between ourselves and other primates, it is only man who
can develop civilization. Seeing what is, in some ways, man minus his
spiritual substance in these creatures can both remind us of the need to
develop our minds and hearts and teach of about the instinctual,
conditioned beings we would be if we did not possess the capacity for
human socialization.
Bright blessings,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (and Structuralist) *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God in the diversity of His creation.
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 19:05:02 +1200
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: standing by my words
Dear Linda,
Call me a perverse dog eating ant with a long nose and a short
black springy bark if you like, but I stand by my words also. (Though, I
liked what John wrote : "Thus, AB's statements onevolution should be read
not literally as corrections to a particular scientific theory but as
affirmations that scientific truth must be understood in the context of a
spiritual view of the universe.") But,alas, my conscience is now
instructing me to be silent. I sincerely wish you, Ken and Rob (et al) the
greatest contentment with your views...
Robert.
PS Re:
And, I trust you read the posting from Juan of
>Abdu'l Baha's talk in New York.
No. But then I didn't read Juan's response to the Research Dept. letter
re. Socrates either. I'd like to read both sometime. I am also waiting for
Chris Buck to supply a full version of the House letter he has recently
used to re-assert his view that there were Manifestations of God in the
Americas.
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 19:10:59 +1200
To: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain...
Dear Ken,
>Very Simple. The (physical) potential of a human foetus to become a
>(morphologically) recognizable human being can be verified quite easily by
>experimental means (e.g. genetic testing). The physical potential for a
>possum to "become" human is demonstrably nil.
Oh: did you find THAT *possum* already, and test it?
Robert (about to play possum)
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Hello, Talisman
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 01:23:16 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Steve -
What a beautiful and spiritually moving story. Thank you. As you may
know, your uncle, Dan Jordan, was one of the closest people to one of
spiritual mentors, Marian Lippitt. His ANISA project (an alternative
educational model) was based largely on Marian's work in the science of
reality which she later incorporated into her Ph.D. dissertation. Dan
himself was much loved by the American Baha'i community. You certainly
have a proud heritage, Steve.
Thanks for the kind words about my employer . Johnson County
Community College is, supposedly, one of the five best community
colleges in the country, and it consistently turns up at the top of the
list on almost all comparative indices. That was part of the draw for me
from my previous teaching position in Georgia. But Johnson County,
Kansas, is one of the five wealthiest counties in the U.S., so it can
afford to put a lot of money into the college! It is nice to know that
someone came into the Faith through JCCC. Unfortunately, there are, to
the best of my knowledge, no Baha'i students currently at the college.
Communiversity is a wonderful continuing education force in the KC
area. Of course, most larger cites I am familiar with have similar
programs. The majority of the courses tend to be geared toward to
personal and career development, neo-paganism, and new-ageism. However,
once in a while, someone, like Mary (who is still very much involved in
Baha'i activities here), will offer a course in the Faith. A friend of
mine is now teaching a course in the Unification Church through
Communiversity.
Best wishes to you, Steve, in your continuing search!
Warm regards to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion/Structuralist *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God in the diversity of His creation.
=END=
Date: 16 Dec 95 23:38:28 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: My Favorite Book
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: SBirkland@aol.com, 103275.1472@compuserv.com, slynch@interserv.com,
jfmalaret@ucdavis.edu, Kkonline@aol.com
Subject: Time: 8:45 PM
OFFICE MEMO My Favorite Book Date: 12/16/95
Citizens of Planet Talisman,
I would like to recommend the following book, whose original is in Dutch (I can
find the name of the original if needed). The English translation is:
Pronk, P. (1993). _Against nature? Types of oral argumentation regarding
homosexuality_.Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans Publishing Co. Forward by Hendrick
Hart.
Pim Pronk's work is probably the finest example of scholarship related to the
moral issue that we Baha'is face re: sexual orientation. In this book, Pronk
skillfully asks,
"What could be done to activate the churches into more actively considering a
practice of visible love for homosexuals such that homosexuals themselves would
feel accepted?"
This is an essential question for Baha'is as well. Hart in the forward states,
"No major denomination that condemns homosexual practice shows that its
professed love for homosexuals is real by actively protesting the persecution
of homosexuals. The church here runs the risk of being fairly accused of
injustice by neglecting to advocate on behalf of its homosexual members. It is
widely agreed that cultural situations of this kind, where members of a society
are condemned because they are different, exist as a result of a widespread
prejudice and ignorance rooted in irrational anxiety. It is also widely agreed
that only education, information, and advocacy can change this situation. " p.
xiv
later Pronk states,
"Sexual justice calls us to acknowledge and respect the diversity of age,
gender, sexual orientation, color, body size and shape, families, and custom.
Such diversity enriches rather than diminishes our life together. Justice
requires us to promote such diversity. It questions elitist cultural
assumptions and stereotypes. In the church, the division is not between
homosexuals and heterosexuals, between men and women, or between white and
black, but between justice and injustice" (Pronk p. 99).
The book jacket states that Pim Pronk teaches dogmatics and philosophy at
Hogeschool Holland, an affiliate of Vrije Universitet, Amsterdam, Netherlands.
His doctorates are in in biology and theology.
regards, Daniel
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 00:32:15 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Subject: Re: Hello, Talisman
Dear Steve Jordan, you wrote, among other things:
>>Hello All:
Welcome. Interesting that you are(were) a musician like your uncle
(Rhodes scholar, music) Dan.
I declared as a Baha'i while living in Chicago in December, 1964, while
attending Chicago Theological Seminary. I spent my very first Fast with
your uncle Dan and his lovely wife, Nancy, and little (at that time)
Melissa when they lived at the Univ. of Chicago.
I remember those cold, wintry mornings - walking from around 57th
Street, across the Midway, with the moon lighting my way, to Dan and
Nancy's place. We shared breakfast and prayers.
I still have the copy of Prayers And Meditations by Baha'u'llah which
Dan and Nancy gave to me: "For Henry, on this great occasion - with a
thousand greetings! Love from Dan and Nancy. 7 Dec. 64"
It was also your Uncle Dan who drove Ethel and Lacy Crawford and me to
the old Baha'i Center in downtown Chicago the night we presented ourselves
to the Spiritual Assembly of Chicago.
Regards,
Henry
Henry W. Miller
Martinez, California,U.S.A.
hwmiller@ccnet.com
hwmiller@eworld.com
510-372-0709
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 01:13:56 -0800
To: Paul Easton , Talisman
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Re-Intro and Ignorant Questions...
Welcome Back Paul....
At 02:53 PM 12/16/95 -0600, Paul Easton wrote:
>Allah'u'abha!
>My name is Paul Chistopher Easton and I am an undergraduate ( soon to be
>2nd Semester Senior )
>- I'll be studying
>Chinese full-time next fall at the Mandarin Training Center, National
>Taiwan Normal University on a scholarship - would it be innappropriate to
>ask for a few prayers for acceptance to be directed my way?
Paul, you got it... Good luck.
>
>This is longer than I had intended it to be, I need to study for my
>finals and the computer lab I'm at is closing. So I will have to save my
>ignorant questions for later. Glad to be back! Looking forward to
>fruitful discussions.
The only ignorant question is one not asked!
>Yours,
> Paul C. Easton
Warmly, Margreet
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 01:34:01 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Subject: Re: Re: Evolution
Christopher, you wrote, in part, in answer to Cheshmak:
> *Ontogeny* relates to the development of the individual, while
>*Phyllogeny* pertains to the phyllum. (A new phyllum has just been
>discovered--a strange funnel-shaped parasite that lives on the lips of
>lobsters.) So, the evolutionary transformations of the phyllum are not
>unlike the transformations in the genesis and development of the
>individual. The metamorphoses of the fetus was, as you recall,
>`Abdu'l-Baha's favorite proof as to why man was still man even when he
>looked like a fish.
>
> Hope this gives you a couple of leads, Cheshmak.
>
> -- Christopher Buck
Christopher, I'm no scientist either, but this reference to "ontogeny
recapitulates phylogeny" brought to mind a book by Sandor Ferenzci,
entitled *Thalassa, A Theory of Genitality.* It was difficult to get ahold
of back when I was at the University of Rochester years ago.
Ferenzci was a student of Freud's at one time, I believe, and developed
this theme while discussing psychological issues, including, as I recall,
his ideas on the etiology of homosexuality. I also seem to recall that he
may have been somewhat discredited due to his illicit sexual relationships
with patients.
I cannot give a review of its contents, as it relates specifially to
theories of evolution, but it does unfold some fascinating discussion about
"ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny." Might this not also have some
connection to the Jungian theory of a "collective unconscious?"
That book was recommended to me by Norman O. Brown, author of Love's
Body, among other publications. N.O.Brown was my professor for an honors
seminar entitled Archetypal Analysis, and I ended up writing a paper on
parallels between Jean Danielou, (a French typologist), Teilhard de
Chardin, and Sandor Ferenzci.
At any rate, it's a fascinating theory. I am interested in tracking
down that paper you mentioned, "The Evolution of The Human Brain," by
Bruce........? Perhaps Cheshmak, or someone else, has discovered the
author's name by now?
Regards,
Henry
Henry W. Miller
Martinez, California,U.S.A.
hwmiller@ccnet.com
hwmiller@eworld.com
510-372-0709
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 03:12:28 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: DNA and Darwin on the brain
Dear Talismans,
Very interesting to read the different ideas on Darwinism and human evolution
from Robert Johnston, Robert Stockman and Ken and the others. I'd like to add
two more thoughts.
I remember hearing that, during His visit to the US, 'Abdu'l-Baha said that
materialism was contagious, just like TB and cancer. At that time, people
thought, 'Oh poor 'Abdu'l-Baha. He doesn't know that those diseases can't be
passed around.' Of course, the TB bacillus was identified shortly
afterwards and some forms of leukemia have been determined to be viral in
origin.
Recalling the quote, " Knowledge is twenty and seven letters. All that the
Prophets have revealed are two letters thereof...But when the Qa'im shall
arise, He will cause the remaining twenty five letters to be made manifest."(
KI), it is clear that our current level of knowlege in all areas is very,
very limited. So we should be quite tentative in evaluating the scientific
validity of the Writings in accordance with present theories, etc.
For an example of our currently quite minimal knowledge of heredity, consider
the following
(Source: _The Sciences_ 35 (3): 8-9. New York Academy of Sciences)
There is a lot of DNA in cells but only about 3% encodes for the manufacture
of proteins. The other 97% has been called "junk" DNA and has been ignored
since it doesn't code for protein and its function can't be determined.
However, a team of East Coast researchers recently applied two statistical
tests used on various languages to both the coding and "junk" DNA. They
found that the noncoding DNA showed the same frequency curve and hierarchy as
natural human languages, and it also had fractal-like properties. Their
conclusions: "There is something substantial in the noncoding regions."
Could it be a language?
When I read this, I thought of the Hidden Words in particular: #13 (Arabic)"
...Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within
thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting."
And # 16."Myriads of mystic tongues find utterance in one speech and myriads
of hidden mysteries are revealed in a single melody.."
There's a lot we don't know...
Best,
Sandy Fotos
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 16:26:06+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
unsubscribe talisman
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 10:23:24 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Biology and the soul
To: talisman@indiana.edu
If we are going to argue from Abdu'l-Baha's position, we should probably
recognize his assumptions. He is working from the classical Islamic
Avicennan/Sadrian system. According to Avicenna, a human rational
soul is emanated when there is a suitable material substrate for it.
If that is so, then the rational soul is not inherited, so there would be
no particular philosophical difficulty about men being descended from
apes (or, to be more accurate, being apes); only the human brain is a
suitable substrate for the emanation of a rational soul, although other
apes come very close.
However, I think this whole argument is misconceived and a gross
misuse of the writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha. Each was
asked endless questions by seekers coming from a large variety of
intellectual traditions: Sufism, Islamic law, Islamic philosophy,
Protestantism, modern science, etc. Each was a well educated man,
deeply versed in the culture of his time and place, and each was
committed to what is really a rather simple religious message: that
truth is one, that man receives moral and spiritual guidance from God,
and that every human intellectual and religious tradition reaches
towards God in its own way. They did not purport to teach about
evolutionary biology, subatomic physics, the history of philosophy,
or whatever. If we try to read them as though that is what they were
doing, the results will be silly. They did, however, constantly restate the
Baha'i message in the language of each seeker they dealt with.
Please remember the story of Baha'u'llah and the dervish from
*Dawn-Breakers*. Baha'u'llah was travelling and met a dervish
cooking dinner. When asked what he was doing, the dervish
explained that he was eating God. Baha'u'llah did not see fit to
condemn the "blasphemy."
On a related matter, I read Robert's letter from the Research Dept.
on Socrates as saying that it was a matter to be explained in terms
of the Islamic traditions about Socrates, which is what I have been
saying. The whole issue is laid out in great detail in the book by
Ilai Alon that they cite. The only novelty of the Baha'i texts is
that accounts refering originally to Empedocles have been assimilated
with the Socrates tradition.
john walbridge
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Re: Evolution
To: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 11:06:14 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Henry, the author's name came to me: Bruce Ryan. The last I heard,
he was taeching biology at a university in Arizona. Perhaps someone from
that neck of the woods has heard of him. Bruce is the only guy I've ever
met who could say, "Wanna come to my place and see my lichen collection?"
and really mean it!
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 11:05:43 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: evolution
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Mark, I cannot for the life of me understand what you mean by not having
the tools for studying evolution empirically. There are a multitude of ways to
study various aspects of evolution using excellent scientific methodology.
What else do you want? Why do Baha'is in the 1990s have to sound like my
Christian fundamentalist students who literally will not look at ape and
hominid skulls when I take them for tours of the anthropology museum? This
stuff is so exciting. I find it difficult to believe that intelligent Baha'is
don't relish in this stuff knowing that we are liberated from old religious
views that denied people the right to explore the universe without fear of
breaking religious law.
I guess my comments to Derek will have to wait. My husband, the Beloved
Listowner, has summoned me to assist him with some matter. I have not even
asked what it is, so dutiful and obedient a wife am I. Submissively, Linda
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 12:37:53 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Ahang:
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I think you and your friend are wrong about the Fadil and encyclopedia
affairs being fundamentally different. The fact is that though the
two episodes happened in very different settings, they have unfolded in
very similar ways over similar issues:
History was the sensitive issue.
The project was initially encouraged at the highest level..
The project was derailed when it was seen to disagree with a
popular portrayal of the Faith.
The decision to stop the project was made by the head of the
faith.
The decision to stop the project was made in the name of
maintaining intellectual uniformity.
The cast of characters is even related, with students and
admirers of the original principals involved in the
encyclopedia affair.
When you combine this with various other incidents and trends, you see
a pattern in the Faith--that history is an untouchable area, that
intellectual life must be uniform, that ideas must come from the top,
that diversity of opinion cannot be handled without crisis. This is
a pattern that goes back at least to the Fadil affair and probably
farther (Browne/Nuqtatu'l-Kaf, Avarih, or the Reading Room affair).
It seems to me that this is a problem that can only be satisfactorily
resolved through firm leadership from the House over a long period of
time. I see three alternatives:
1) The House makes the decision to encourage independent academic
investigation and then sticks to it through the inevitable complaints
until a more tolerant attitude becomes well established in
the community.
2) The House succeeds in maintaining the current policies of
uniformity of thought. The result will be to drive out or marginalize
Baha'i intellectuals and condemn the Faith to a status like that of
the Mormons: a religion that may be able to grow but is permanently
confined to a cult-like intellectual life and is therefore marginal
in the larger life of society.
3) Baha'i intelletuals simply cease to obey the House on matters
relating the intellectual life and scholarship. This would, I think, do
long-term damage, both by dividing the Faith and by making intellectual
life a permanent source of conflict within the community.
If things continue as they do, we will end up with (2) or (3), probably
(2).
As they told me when I first became a Baha'i, if you don't face a test,
it keeps coming back until you do.
What kinds of policies I think should be followed is a subject I will
discuss another time.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 09:39:11 -0800
To: SFotos@eworld.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: Safa Sadeghpour
Subject: Re: DNA and Darwin on the brain
At 03:12 AM 12/17/95 -0800, SFotos@eworld.com wrote:
>Dear Talismans,
>
>Very interesting to read the different ideas on Darwinism and human evolution
>from Robert Johnston, Robert Stockman and Ken and the others. I'd like to add
>two more thoughts.
>
>I remember hearing that, during His visit to the US, 'Abdu'l-Baha said that
>materialism was contagious, just like TB and cancer. At that time, people
>thought, 'Oh poor 'Abdu'l-Baha. He doesn't know that those diseases can't be
>passed around.' Of course, the TB bacillus was identified shortly
>afterwards and some forms of leukemia have been determined to be viral in
>origin.
>
>Recalling the quote, " Knowledge is twenty and seven letters. All that the
>Prophets have revealed are two letters thereof...But when the Qa'im shall
>arise, He will cause the remaining twenty five letters to be made manifest."(
>KI), it is clear that our current level of knowlege in all areas is very,
>very limited. So we should be quite tentative in evaluating the scientific
>validity of the Writings in accordance with present theories, etc.
>
>For an example of our currently quite minimal knowledge of heredity, consider
>the following
>(Source: _The Sciences_ 35 (3): 8-9. New York Academy of Sciences)
>
>There is a lot of DNA in cells but only about 3% encodes for the manufacture
>of proteins. The other 97% has been called "junk" DNA and has been ignored
>since it doesn't code for protein and its function can't be determined.
>
>However, a team of East Coast researchers recently applied two statistical
>tests used on various languages to both the coding and "junk" DNA. They
>found that the noncoding DNA showed the same frequency curve and hierarchy as
>natural human languages, and it also had fractal-like properties. Their
>conclusions: "There is something substantial in the noncoding regions."
This is fascinating. Do you happen to have a reference to it by any
chance?
Thanks.
Take care.
Safa
>
>Could it be a language?
>
>When I read this, I thought of the Hidden Words in particular: #13 (Arabic)"
>...Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within
>thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting."
>
>And # 16."Myriads of mystic tongues find utterance in one speech and myriads
>of hidden mysteries are revealed in a single melody.."
>
>There's a lot we don't know...
>
>
>Best,
>Sandy Fotos
>
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"My goal is simple. It is complete understanding of the universe, why it as
it is and why it exists as all." - Stephen Hawking
"Truth decays into beauty, while beauty soon becomes merely charm. Charm
ends up as strangeness, and even that doesn't last, but up and down are
forever." - The Laws of Physics
"The shining spark of truth comes forth only from the clash of differing
opinions." Abdu'l-Baha
Safa Sadeghpour (think@ucla.edu)
http://www.smc.edu/homepage/maclab/maclab.web/web/safa.web/safa.htm
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 10:40:49 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: The 1995 figures on the Removal and Restoring of Administrative Rights
in the USA Baha'i Community !
To: talisman@indiana.edu
To: farshid@ix.netcom.com
To: BANANI@humnet.ucla.edu
To: barney@leith.demon.co.uk
Dear Talismanians .
Some time ago on this list a debate ran regarding the number of
people who have their rights removed . A figure that was quoted
placed the percentage of the USA Baha'i community having their
rights removed at around 2% .
I was curious regarding the current figure as well as the accuracy of
the original data . I seem to recall the information quoted in the
posting was over 10 years old . I decided to request the current
data from the National Office . The figures show that far from a
system that seeks out individuals to remove their rights . Rather
one that trys to enable believers overcome their problems , of
setting in place a personal lifestyle that relates to the Teachings of
the Blessed Beauty .
The statistics are for 1995 from January 1st :
Removal of Rights : 37
Restoring of Rights : 19
Taking the USA Baha'i Community as 135,000 the removal rate is
0 . 0274 % .
I did not ask for the number of matters before the Office of
Community Administration and Development nor do I believe it
would have been correct to ask for such a figure .
I would suggest that the removal of the Rights of 37 people is a
tragedy for them personally and the local community each one is
part of . It does mean such a relatively light caseload that each case
can and is treated with all due care and concern by the NSA . That I
know has nothing to do with the point over what if the NSA is
involved directly in such situations . Those cases are rare and
infrequent and are not a regular part of the functioning of the USA
Baha'i National Community nor does it seem are the removal of
Administrative Rights for any matter .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut .
=END=
From: Peter_Tamas@bcon.com (Peter Tamas)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: infalibility thread request
Date: 17 Dec 1995 19:13:43 GMT
I've been a wall flower on the list for about four months and would like to
take a run at the infallibility question. Rather than begin with my partial
collection of posts on the thread, I'd like to have the whole picture before
I opened my ignorant mouth. So, if anybody has archived this thread
(infalibility of the House of Justice) I'd appreciate a copy.
Please don't expect quick turn around..I've done a bunch of this sort of
stuff at school and it generally takes me a while to come up with a
reasonable set of questions.
thanks
-Peter Tamas
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 07:14:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Miracles and history
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
One of my good friends who is rendering exemplary service at a
particular administrative post and lurks on Talisman just wrote and
raised a couple of interesting questions and since he invited me to
post it publicly as others may find it amusing (or better yet, offer
upgrades), then I'll take some bandwidth.
> In a message you posted last week you mentioned a manuscript
> by Shahmirzadi, which contains, as you put it, "Wild stories
> about miracles by Quddus and Mulla Husayn (and a few others)
> that you can't find in any sciencefiction!"
> Can you provide the title of this manuscript? Has it seen
> publication? Can you e-mail me some examples of the wildest
> of the "wild stories"? Finally, could you expound a little
> on what you think the source of these stories might be? Did
> Shahmirzadi invent them himself, or did he inflate stories
> told him by others, or did he faithfully record stories that
> had already grown wild and enormous through having been told
> and retold within the Babi-Baha'i community?
What is raised could actually be the subject of a very interesting
paper for the upcoming History conference, (but I think that after
letting the cat out of bag on Fadil's episode that organizers are
sufficiently annoyed with me to be barred from the event ...)
The title of the manuscript is simply "Vaqayi'ih Qal`ih" (the events
of the Fort) by Mirza Abu-Talib-i Shahmirzadi. He was a
"baqiatu'l-sayf" (remnant of the Fort) and together with a few other
survivors of Fort Tabarsi have each independently, penned their
recollection of the events of leading up to and during the Fort. None
of these been published (though a few short extracts appear in
Zuhuru'l-Haqq, vol. 3). The other important narratives are:
Lutf Ali Mirza Shirazi, Account of Uprising of Mazandaran, (I own two
versions of it; the better one is in the hand of Muhammad-Baqir
Tihrani, 111 pages). This work is early since he fell as a martyr
during 1852 pogrom.
Aqa Siyyid Hasan (Mahjur) Zavarih'i, "Vaqa'i-y Mimiyyih" (Events of
Mazandaran), (I have two versions of it: one 100 pages in his own
hand, the other 146 pages transcribed by M.A. Malik-Khusravi)
Hajji Ja`far Qazvini, "Tarikh", 52 pages, (was included in the first
edition of "Tarikh-i Samandar" but removed in subsequent printing of
that book -- the editors forgot to remove references to it from the
introduction and the Table of Contents ;-} Again this work is early
since Qazvini was martyred in 1852.
Hajji Nasir Qazvini, "Tarikh Qali'h-i Shaykh Tabarsi", 25 pages.
Another early work.
And there are some odds and ends such as Zavarih'i's account of Mulla
Husayn's martyrdom (in form of exceptionally moving poetry of some 20
pages long), etc.
Now, let me give a brief example of the sort of "miracle" story you
find in Shahmirzadi's account.
He related that on arriving at the Fort, he went straight to the
presence of Quddus who received them with much kindness and told them
to take his place among the defenders and receive daily instructions
from Mulla Husayn. In seeing Mulla Husayn, likewise, he uplifted
their his with words of encouragement and then told that nothing
happens in the Fort unless its the will of Jinab-i Quddus at its
appointed time. Mulla Husayn relates that for example when we were at
Sabzihmaydon and it was the time of prayers, I asked one of the
believers to call out the Adhan, who was shot immediately by the
town's people. The the second believer took up the adhan, who was
also shot, and then the third, at which I time I got on my horse and
road out and single-handedly dispersed the mob. (This much of the
story is in the Dawnbreakers too.) Then Mulla Husayn says that when I
returned back to the mosque, after having dispersed the mob, in front
of all believers I took off my belt which was holding together my Aba
(outer garment), and immediately fell to the ground hundreds of
bullets fired upon my by town's people. All these bullets had
penetrated my Aba but had failed to go through my shirt to harm me and
were thus collected around my belt.
Shahmirzadi goes on to report that many of time similar things
happened to himself while in the Fort -- as if God wanted him to
survive to tell of the events.
Of course, the beloved Guardian was very careful not to bring any of
these stories in the Dawnbreakers (if in fact Nabil had captured them,
which I understand that he had many "miracle" stories indeed) as it
would only undermine the integrity of the events. And of course the
beloved Guardian is correct (as if he needs my approval!) and we must
follow in his footsteps.
But again, it should be borne in mind, that Shoghi Effendi also
recognized that some of these "miracle" events were by then matters of
public records and non-Baha'i writers, such as Sipihr or Hedayat,
etc., were writing about them: such as the miracles associated with
the martyrdom of the Bab, or His going to bath episode in Urumi'ih,
etc. These he had to include in the Dawnbreakers and no body could
attack him since he could point to Ruzatu'l-Safa and say, "see,
Muslims and enemies are saying it too."
Now, you ask what the sources of these stories might be and if they
were inflated, etc. I believe that Shahmirzadi and all the other
reporters where exceptionally sincere and these things *actually
happened*. Shahmirzadi had no intention of leaving behind a
*history*. He only wrote his comments as a source of edification for
his own descendants -- a fact mentioned in the text along with his
instructions that the manuscript not leave the family (and how I ended
up with it is yet a different story). He wasn't trying to influence
Babi history, etc. He lived until 1892 and served the *Baha'i* Faith
and Baha'u'llah. There was no reason for him to create stories about
earlier days as his concern shifted to his new Faith. Besides,
similar stories are told by other survivors.
Incidentally, MacEoin maintains that the source of Nabil's story for
Fort Tabarsi is Shahmirzadi. I have proved this theory wrong and have
shown that the source is another narrative. Actually this is among a
more brilliant contributions on my part.
> While I have your attention, let me ask you a question about
> Nabil's Narrative: Is the passage known as "the Bab's
> address to the Letters of the Living," Baha'i scripture,
> according to your understanding? Is there any likelihood
> that this address was actually invented, in whole or in part,
> by Nabil? Or by Shoghi Effendi?
The Dawnbreakers (remember I use this term to distinguish it from
Nabil's Narrative with I consider a term for the *original* manuscript
of Nabil) is a book of history and not scripture in my view. The
Baha'is who elevate it to the level of Scripture will do the beloved
Guardian a great disservice. Hence in my view (however wrong others
may consider it to be), the Bab's address to the Letters of the Living
is simply an inspiration piece -- which *somewhat* resembles what the
Bab may have said on that evening.
It clearly and categorically NOT an invented of Shoghi Effendi.
It was not even invented by Nabil (though I have never seen Nabil's
text to be sure, but I trust Shoghi Effendi when he says its there).
So, where did it come from? And that question can't in all
probability ever be answered. But examining Nabil's actual text will
without doubt give us much better insights.
His narrative is rich with dialogue. Its very important to see his
*original* manuscript to see if he identifies the source(s) of his
dialogues or events. Also, its important to examine the original to
see the style of these dialogues. Let me give an example to clarify.
There are two important "farewell" addresses by the Bab: one given to
all the Letters and the second to Quddus in Bushihr (on their
supposedly last meeting -- which this "last meeting" is bogus but
that's a different story). If Nabil does not in fact identify his
source for these two "farewell" talks in original text, then I submit
examination of the original (and not the Guardian's translation) will
be of a great help. Here is my theory: Quddus probably told no one
except Mulla Sadiq Muqqadas-i Khurasani of what the Bab said to him,
so if the style of the two talks are indeed similar then it seems
likely the source for the Bab's farewell address to the Letters is
Mulla Sadiq. We won't know for sure, but we'll be on more solid
ground.
There are many, many questions which can only be answered by examining
the original of Nabil's text and where the translation has obscured
the details.
Anyway, these are my 2 cents worth. Perhaps others can add to them.
much love, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 14:50:47 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Nabil and "authentic" speeches
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Let us remember when evaluating these things that premodern historians
(and some modern popular historians) are in the habit of doing their
analysis by having the characters say what they *ought* to have said
at the time had they not been mere mortals. The grand master of
this technique was Thucydides; the speeches in his history of the
Peloponesian War are among the world's masterpieces of political
and historical analysis. It is possible that Nabil had a written
source for the Bab's farewell speech, but I suspect that it represents
an expansion of what Nabil heard second or third hand from participants
in the light of what Nabil thought was the significance of the occasion.
Its value therefore depends on what you think of Nabil's acumen as a
Babi historian.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 12:42:58 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Subject: Re: Review and translation
Dear John, you wrote in part:
>> A field like Baha'i studies is comparable to fields like the classics,
>>Egyptology, or Islamic studies.
>>john walbridge
Certainly the term "Baha'i studies" is a much larger umbrella than the
study of history, with all of its fascinating and nitty-gritty research,
verification of texts, translations, and so on.
Under the term "Baha'i studies," recognizing that there is an overall
Association for Baha'i Studies, how many spheres or fields of study and
investigation have been identified, or have simply developed into their own
niches or groups of Baha'i scholars pursuing their respective research? And
what organizations or vehicles for cross-communication now exist that we
might be informed of, from within or without the Association for Baha'i
Studies?
ABS doesn't have its own mailing list or other type of online clearing
house as far as I know. I haven't seen an ABS Homepage on the WWW yet. Is
there a group of scholars , for example, who are in constant touch around
the field of Health/Medicine/Nutrition, for example? Is there any other
online list reflecting more of that emphasis?
I have recently subscribed to the Baha'i-Intuition mailing list; I
certainly wouldn't want to dismiss that emphasis as outside the circle of
"Baha'i studies." And, of course, there are many private email
conversations occurring along more personal lines of interest. In that
sense Talisman may be similar to an iceberg, representing the "conscious"
tip - but only the tip of what is waiting to emerge or brought to
consciousness.
Talisman is a wonderful clearing house. I was thrilled to see a posting
from Luanne, for example, which dealt more with the "experiential" aspects
of integrating the "esoteric" and the "exoteric." Some Talismanians are
more interested in the abstract, theoretical mapping type of discussion in
referencing the "esoteric-exoteric" spiritual and/or scientific landscape.
Others desire an experiential, metaphorical (which does not imply a lack
of reality) sharing. Still others desire to discuss methodological tools,
primary and secondary sources. There is room for everyone. Confusion
occurs when metaphors are mixed, or when one writer makes unwarranted
assumptions about what another poster states, rather that inquiring or
asking for further delineation of one's thought.
It often feels like a demon of slippery thinking lurks here. Some
postings sound so absolutist. This is so strange, especially in a time
when the boundaries of thought and the parameters of various fields are
shifting, bumping into one another, and holographically shaping into a
whole new -as yet undefineable and ungraspable- unified field of
understanding. That does not imply that we don't observe, record,
hypothesize, measure, conclude, etc., but it does suggest that we should
take the "long view," as Sandy Fotos and others have intimated or stated
outright . It does mean, it seems to me, that one must ponder and search
for the "secret doors" where seemingly opposing or different fields of
study truly do access or hook up with one another. The true poet must of
necessity become also a scientist, and the scientist must also animate and
awaken materialistic thinking and become thereby a metaphorical,
mytho-poet. Talisman, afterall, is a metaphor suggestive of magical
qualities.
There is either oneness or there isn't. Reality does not admit of
multiplicity, the Writings state. If any one of us limits ourself to
thinking that "Baha'i studies" relates to only one of many equally
important fields of endeavor - spiritual and material - then it would be my
fear that the insights and joys deriving from a point of view of oneness
may well escape us.
I do not think any one of us escapes the responsibility of rethinking -
and reflecting upon - what she/he has written before it is sent. As I
rethought this I was reminded to thank you, John, for letting your posting
help me with mine. I responded to your posting with mostly an
observation-turned-question, and I have expanded it into more
of"observations-turned-lecture."
Thank you for starting and working so hard to operate and manage Talisman.
Regards,
Henry
Henry W. Miller
Martinez, California,U.S.A.
hwmiller@ccnet.com
hwmiller@eworld.com
510-372-0709
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 14:17:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: "JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.e" <"jwalbrid@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu"@esds01.
mrgate.bmoa.umc.dupont.com>,
talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Nabil and "authentic" speeches
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
What John says is very reasonable.
One could even take a step further and argue that this farewell
speech is the Babi version of the Biblical "Last Supper" -- after
all, the Babis were obsessed with the question of fulfillment of
Biblical/Islamic prophecies and strongly believed that they were
re-enacting previous historical events. And of course the speech
conveniently quotes the words of Jesus addressed to His disciples
at the Last Supper -- presumably for those too dense to figure
the symbolism.
But before we quickly dismiss it a yet another Babi myth or
invention of Nabil, let's keep in mind that several Letters of
the Living survived 1852 events and may have then left behind
memoirs. I've never seen reference to any, but am interested to
hear if others have.
At any rate, its a strange thing that a speech as inspirational
and historically important as this, is not referred to by anyone
else except Nabil. The Bab never refers to it. No other fellow
Letter wrote to Tahirih about it (that we know of). She makes no
mention of it in her writings. No evidence that Siyyid Javad
Karbali had heard from Muall Ali-y Bastami who should have
received a report of it from Shiraz. And above all, no similiar
sentiments in the Bab's Tablet to Mulla Ali Bastami sent to Iraq!
Curious!!?
ahang.
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 15:53:42 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: "Baha'i Studies"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Henry Miller is quite right; my discussion refered to a particular kind
of Baha'i studies: that which involves the scientific study of primary
sources. I don't want to dismiss such areas as Baha'i studies of
agriculture, addiction, etc. (to which Rob Stockman once gave the
splendid name of "applied Bahaism"), but at this stage in Baha'i history
they seem to raise fewer questions than that branch of study that asks
what the Faith is and where it came from and attempts to do so
scientifically rather than theologically.
john walbridge
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: evolution
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:14:36 -0600 (CST)
Linda Walbridge wrote to talisman@indiana.edu:
L>Dear Mark, I cannot for the life of me understand what you mean by not
L>having the tools for studying evolution empirically. There are a
L>multitude of ways to study various aspects of evolution using
L>excellent scientific methodology. What else do you want? Why do
L>Baha'is in the 1990s have to sound like my Christian fundamentalist
L>students who literally will not look at ape and hominid skulls when I
L>take them for tours of the anthropology museum? This stuff is so
L>exciting.
Hi, Linda -
Thanks for your note.
I used to teach a 400-level (senior) course entitled "Human
Evolution and Prehistory" at the southwest campus of the University of
Virginia - Clinch Valley College - back when I chaired the Department of
Social and Behavioral Sciences there. Certainly, I am familiar with the
methodologies which have been used to empirically study hominid/primate
evolution.
I don't think that I ever said that we do not have the tools for
studying evolution empirically. What I wrote was:
It [the divine ordering of creation] teaches us about the
purposefulness of evolution - a dimension of science which
is unattainable using the normal tools of empirical research.
By purpose, I meant God's purpose for existence (loving and knowing God,
developing virtues, etc.), which we know through studying the divine
teachings. Material science cannot teach us about the purposeful power
(spirit) of the soul. It can only observe outward appearances. OTOH, the
divine metaphysics brought by the Prophets fills that gap in our
knowledge.
Warm greetings to you,
Mark (Foster)
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates His creative diversity.
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:25:03 +1300 (NZDT)
To: SFotos@eworld.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: DNA and Darwin on the brain
Dear Sandy,
Great! Loved it.
Metaphysically, humans were seen as metaphysical entities; modernly, humans
were seen as biological entities; postmodernly, human beings are seen as
essentially...communicators. Religiously: all three.
If you are able, could you please sent to me your recent letter on fractals.
Robert....
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 16:23:49 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Baha'i studies
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Heaven forbid that I should publicly disagree with my husband, but I really
don't understand the concept of "Baha'i agriculture" or "Baha'i nutrition." I
can understand studying the Faith theologically, historically, and socially (or
anthropolgically), but beyond that, I haven't a clue as to what anyone means.
Linda
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:21:49 EST
Subject: infallability (2pgs.)
Dear Friends,
First, I would like to acknowledge that my response to the above
is assisted by a dear unknown scholar friend Walter Wootten age 65
and a Baha'i since age of 18 and taught by Hand of the Cause Agnes
Alexander in Honolulu while a young Marine Corps person at the time,
who has the responsibility of my staying in the Faith through hard times.
He states that the statements here are advisory and not decretal, as
he is labile, (subject to error).
"Infallability issue is dealt with in the Kitab'i Iqan p. 181-182.
It is stated that there are seven degrees within the realm of the
infallable Divine Unity; previous to this precious Book, no one had
it altogether. The seven degrees within the Divine Unity
stipulated are as follows (see reference p.181 Kitab'i Iqan)
1) Divinity; Baha'u'llah??
2) Lordship; Bab?? (see page 86 Prayers and Meditations by
Bahau'llah)
3) Prophethood; (Moses? Jesus? Muhammad? Buddha? Krishna? etc.
these are Prophets endowed with Constancy; Lawgivers, Legislator
Prophets )
4) Messengership; e.g. The lesser Prophets of the House of Israel?
examples; Isaah? Daniel, Jeremiah etc.
5)Guardianship; (Shoghi Effendi?)
6)Apostleship; (The Twelve Imams of the Islamic Dispensation?)
and possibly John the Writer of the Revelation of St. John?? Not sure
about John.
7) Servitude; Question: Mr. Wootten is unable to make any reference
or give examples on this rank and is asking for further
assistance of those who may know.
Shoghi Effendi in Mrs. May Maxwell's Haifa Pilgrim Notes, 1937
pointed out that threre are two types of infallibility;
1) Innate
2) Derived
It is up to the reader or inquirer to discover or ascertain which of
the seven degrees are innate or derived. I (Walter)presume all are innate
infallability;THUS THE GUARDIAN IS INFALLABLE IN EVERTHING! To
admit otherwise would open Pendoras Box for every snake and mouse and
spider to crawl out challenging the infallability of the Guardian
of the Cause of God. Some said that the Guardian is not an Authority on
science. Then the question; who is Authority on science which has
never been defined. It has been only recently that we have used the
coined term "scientist" and all scientists disagree among themselves
about the foundation of the empiricism. So, how could anyone say that
the Guardian is not an Authority on science? Rumi in his Mathnawi
over 700 years ago stated that all of these sciences in the Light of
Divine Revelation are as dainty nosegay.
Touching upon derived infallability, these offices subsist by virtue
of the corollaries derivative of their function, pursuing the Divine
Law. Thus, for example if a Prophet of God establishes an Institution
it is a Divine Institution. Therefore, it enjoys derived
infallability. For example, in Kitab'i Aqdas in 1873 Baha'u'llah
divinely creates the Universal House of Justice to legislate in areas
of human endeavour, not specifically stipulated in the Aqdas.
This is derived infallability. So far as we are concerned must be
obeyed, unquestioningly. Another example is the Institution of the
Hands of the Cause of God, during the period between 1957-63 where
there was no Guardianship the Institution as a Body enjoyed derived
infallability pursuing their divinely stipulated duties in the Aqdas.
Therefore they had the derived infallability to officially convoce
the election of the Universal House of Justice in 1963.
With respect to the challenging of Authority of Infallibility by the
believers, those who presume to speak in God's Name who have not been
officially designated by the Manifestation of God, we are at liberty
to challenge. Lying imposters are the chief creators of fear in the
hearts of men. Those who presume to be authorities in that wonderful
NO MAN'S LAND at the metaphysical realm between the Prophet of God
and his creatures and who do not hold credentials from the
Manifestation of God may be challenged and ignored. This applies to
the so called empirical fields of theology, metaphysical abstraction,
natural magic-all three (LEARNINGS) of which have been discredited in
Baha'u'llah's Kitab'i Iqan.
We already have in society two ranks of military men:
1) officers
2) enlisted men.
An officer is to all intents and purposes, so far as an enlisted men
is concerned unchallengeable and within the degree of officership we
have generals,colonels, majors, liutenants and ensigns etc., even as
we have seven degrees within the realm of Divine Unity all are
infallable.
We next get to the nitty grityy and the cutting edge of the
discussion as to which are fields in empiricism and which not?
The human mind is just as much a facet of the unseen realm as the
rest of the unseen realm. It therefore is within the province of the
Prophet of God or the Manifestations of God, or possibly within those
Institutions enjoying derived infallability to pronounce upon the
subject of the legitimacy of empirical fields residing within the
unseen realm. Even as we have discovered the Periodic Table in
chemistry to which we are continually and periodically adding
elements, even so before an empirical field in metaphysical realm is
accorded official recognition and proof of existence, a PERIODIC
TABLE OF THE ELEMENTS OF HUMAN MIND is necessary, before the field
can be officially established and before we can discuss intelligently
such disciplines as psychology which has its premises based on
empirical studies on animal behaviors, theology, philosophy, economic
theory, sociology- in short the entire gammut of social sciences.
Abdu'lBaha as recorded in Star of the West said that a thing cannot
know itself (paraphrased?). It stands to simple reason that the
encompassor can understand the encompassed; the surrounder can fathom
the surrounded, but not vice versa. Therefore, in order to talk about
the human mind, we have to stand on the ground of not-mind. Can you
imagine what this should do to the current university curricula,
especially in social and behavioral and philosophical studies and all efforts of
metaphysical abstraction, and the sciences of prediction beyond
natural law?
greetings,
Walter R. Wootten
P.S.: Mr. Wootten is only a guest who is leaving today and
enjoys no access to e-mail. I only was his typist in this effort.
However, I will forward any reply by snail mail to him.
*** ***
* *
*
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:51:00 EST
Subject: Servitude
Addendum to previous posting regarding 7 degrees of infallability
7) Servitude; perhaps relevant to this rank is Baha'u'llah's
perplexing verse in His Epistle to The Son of The Wolf:
"Servitude is a substance the essence of which is divinity"
Thus far we consciously know only of the two facets of Divinity:
1) Matter; the people who were and are the denizens of matter are
empiricists and kings and civil rulers.
2) Spirit; the denizens of spirit have been ecclesiastics and
mystics.
For 6 thousands years these two campers have been fighting
each other. The question which I entertain as a node of difficulty
is:
IS THE RANK OF SERVITUDE PROPOUNDED BY BAHA'ULLAH IN THE AFORESAID
PASSAGES A THIRD FACET OF DIVINITY???? WOW!!!!!!
If so, is this rank of Servitude will adequate for the first time in
history the competing vectors of Matter and Spirit; thus, reorienting
the human mind in a completely different direction than the denizens
of the Spirit of Matter who are at each others' throats???
The institution of Servitude is the only way to unite these two
warring elements of bidders for royal or ecclesiastical
transcendancy.
greetings,
Walter Wootten
*** ***
* *
*
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:01:35 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Another suggestion regarding scholarship
Dear Everyone,
As I understand it the compeletion date for the Centre of
the Study of the Sacred Text is only a few short years away - I am
guessing about 1 1/2 since from the pictures the skeleton is almost
finished.
What if we ask the Universal House of Justice about their
plans for the work at the Centre for the, say, next 10
years after its completion: how does the House prioritize
the massive basic scholarly work that remains.
John mentioned that he would share his suggestions regarding
scholarship - may be the consulation on the matter can
generate recommendations to the House regarding possible
projects for the Centre.
BTW, Ahang's posts about reported miracles at Shaykh
Tabarsi have a "Raiders of the Lost Ark" ring to them!
I hope he, and others, will share more of what they know.
take care,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 13:54:53 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Marion Hofman's funeral
To: talisman@indiana.edu
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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 21:29:17 +0000
To: bahai-exchange-uk@bcca.org
From: Barney Leith
Subject: Marion Hofman's funeral
Cc: DEREK COCKSHUT
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Status: RO
12 December, 1995
Over a hundred people attended Marion Hofman's funeral in Oxford today.
The
service was simple, but moving. Marion's granddaughters (Mark and
Deborah's
children), Martha and Mary, together with May Hofman, played the second
movement of J.S. Bach's Concerto in D minor for two violins. That music
was
so apt, dissolving us in tears of recollection, bringing us back to the
centre ground of commemoration. A wonderful beginning.
The message from the Universal House of Justice was read (by the writer
of
this message).
Hasan Sabri delivered the eulogy, personal recollections of the help
Marion
gave him as a young man, of her generosity, her faithfulness to those
she
loved, her utter dedication to the Cause and faithfulness to the
Covenant.
Prayers and extracts from the Writings were read by Manoocher Samii,
Paddy
O'Mara, Erica Leith, and May Hofman. Mrs Taeedi chanted beautifully a
prayer of `Abdu'l-Baha. And Mark Hofman read "Blest pair of sirens" and
another short poem, both by John Milton.
At the graveside, David Hofman recited the Obligatory Prayer for the
Dead
with a strong voice and looking up to heaven as he read.
Juliet and Novin Doostdar hosted a reception after the funeral, where
David
Hofman read out the wonderful message from Ruhiyyih Khanum and spoke
briefly of the other messages he had received from around the world.
Part of Khanum's message:
SADDENED NEWS PASSING MY DEAR OLD FRIEND MARION, DEVOTED, OUTSTANDING
VERY
ACTIVE BELIEVER IN NORTH AMERICA DURING MY GIRLHOOD AND LATER IN HER
YEARS
IN GREAT BRITAIN AND EUROPE. HISTORY HER MANY DEVOTED SERVICES WILL NOT
BE
FORGOTTEN BY THOSE WHO LOVED AND ADMIRED HER. MY ARDENT HOPE IS THAT
HER
CHILDREN WILL BEFITTINGLY APPRECIATE HER WORTH AND FOLLOW IN HER
FOOTSTEPS
IN SERVING THE CAUSE OF GOD AND THROUGH IT THEIR CONTEMPORARY
GENERATION IN
SUCH A WAY AS TO GLADDEN HER SPIRIT AND BRING JOY TO HER SOUL IN THE
REALMS
BEYOND TO WHICH SHE IS NO DOUBT WELCOMED BY MANY WHO LOVED HER IN THIS
LIFE, INCLUDING THE SPIRIT OF MY OWN DEAR MOTHER.
It was a wonderful service, simple, deeply moving, entirely
appropriate. I
think many of us felt Marion's spirit close by.
Barney
=========================================================
* Barney Leith Leith Editorial Services
* Writing * Editing * Typography * Layout * Print Production Management
* 24 Gardiner Close, Abingdon, Oxon OX14 3YA, UK
* e-mail: barney@leith.demon.co.uk
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing...
Baha'u'llah
=========================================================
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:54:50 +1300 (NZDT)
To: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Biology and the soul
ffolks,
I could not but read John's letter with dismay and a profound sense
of loss. Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha reduced to being well-read
gentlemen, a narrow and prejudiced reading of the Research Dept material on
Socrates, the Baha'i view that the human soul comes into existence at
conception over-ridden...
I scan the horizon for support, but feel hopelessly outnumbered. If
John's view represents the prevailing viewpoint among American Baha'i
intellectuals, then I must surely retreat from the field, and leave the
proponents of what I consider to be a perverse position to themselves... A
long time must pass before the meaning of the harmony of science and
religion will be genuinely grasped, I feel. Intuitively, I feel that
greatest inroads will be made only after entry by troops. Then, huge
numbers from the among the unlettered will rapidly acquire learning while
retaining a simple and vital faith. Brahmanic American Baha'i
intellectuals by contrast will find themselves in a condition of severe
loss, as their materialistic and dessicated theories are trampled under by
the sheer weight of an advancing humanity...
Thank God Mark Foster is on Talisman!
Robert.
=END=
From: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Subject: Man, Apes, and "Junk" DNA...
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:03:29 -0600 (CST)
Dear friends,
Some quick thoughts on posts by Mark (re: Evolution) and Sandy (re: Junk
DNA). The point is often made of the extreme genetic similarity between man
and chimpanzees (let's say on the order of 98% identity at the DNA sequence
level). Well, you know, you can do a lot with that 2%! It is estimated that
we have about 100,000+ genes so that could be as many as 2,000 genes, assuming
none of the dissimilarity was in "junk" DNA regions, which would probably be a
naive assumption. Let's say, then, that 90% of the 2% difference was junk
DNA; that
still leaves 200 genes to play with. You can do an awful lot with 200 genes
not only in terms of the function of the genes themselves but how their
expression is spatially and temporally regulated. This is particularly
relevant with developmental transcription factors whose function is to turn on
whole sets of other genes (it's really like a wondrous symphony when you start
to think about it). These genes can regulate such critical parameters in
development as the number of times brain cells undergo cell division
during development which will determine the brain size of a particular species..
..Finally, the brains of chimpanzees and apes are PHYSICALLY different from
humans in very important ways, undoubtedly as a consequence of these seemingly
small genetic differences, which however have enormous developmental
consequences.
Sandy mentioned some interesting information about so called "Junk" DNA and
there is little doubt in my mind that more and more will be uncovered about
the function of this paradoxical DNA "stuffing"! A really intriguing point,
however, is that without this junk "DNA" which is highly polymorphic (sequence
variation) in mammals, there probably would have been no efficient method to
start finding the many genes responsible for genetically based diseases such
as cystic fibrosis, huntington's, muscular dystrophy, amyelotrophic lateral
schlerosis (Lou Gehrig's disease) etc...Indeed the ability to map and sequence
the human genome (admittedly a potentially double-edged sword) has depended on
this junk DNA. Briefly, the reason the junk DNA is important is that because
it does not code for any particular function (at least no obvious function) it
can accumulate mutations without affecting its carrier and can therefore be
passed on indefinitely. Oh, Oh, I think I just bit off more than I want to
chew here, but for those interested the basic principle behind genetic mapping
is linkage analysis.
(there was an excellent article about this in one of the summer or early fall
Scientific American-Medicine issues).
So THANK GOD for "junk" DNA!!!
Warmest Regards to All!
Ken
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: Solar / Lunar Observances of Baha'i Holy Days
To: talisman@indiana.edu (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:03:44 MST
Dear Friends,
What follows is a partially completed schedule of Baha'i Observances
according to their solar or lunar basis for observing them within the
Baha'i (Badi) calendar.
I seek your assistance in completing this schedule if that is possible
at this time. Please post back the unknown bases marked with an "?", as
well as correcting any errors or omissions. Perhaps the following
comments will be useful:
- References for Textual Authority are to the Kitab-i-Aqdas, and
Question and Answers.
- Under "East" and "BWC" columns I am looking for first-hand
observations, not hearsay. Please quote chapter and verse for Textual
Authorities.
Also, with respect to the observances of the Twin Holy Birthdays even
though it is current practice to commemorate these on a solar basis in
the West, and even though it remains for the House to determine the
solar or lunar basis for commemorating these observances, the burning
question is: is there any restriction on we in the West celebrating
these now on a lunar basis? TERRY, I know this question burns in your
heart too.
_______________
Schedule of Current Baha'i Practices and Textual Authorities
for Determining Solar or Lunar Basis for Baha'i Observances
Basis for Observation(1)
--------------------- Textual
Baha'i Observances West East BWC Authority(2)
________________________________________________________________________
Naw-Ruz Solar Solar Solar Solar: Q35
Ridvan Festival(3) Solar(4) Solar Solar Solar: Q1
Declaration of the Bab Solar(4) ? ? Lunar: Q36
Ascension of Baha'u'llah Solar(4) ? ? ?
Martyrdom of the Bab Solar(4) ? ? ?
Birth of the Bab Solar Lunar Lunar Lunar: K110, Q36
Birth of Baha'u'llah Solar Lunar Lunar Lunar: K110, Q36
Day of the Covenant Solar ? ? ?
Ascension of Abdu'l-Baha Solar(4) ? ? ?
Ayyam-i-Ha Solar Solar Solar Solar: K16
The Baha'i Fast Solar Solar Solar Solar: K16
____________________
(1) "Given that the Baha'i calendar ... is a solar calendar, it remains
for the Universal House of Justice to determine whether the Twin Holy
Birthdays are to be celebrated on a solar or lunar basis"(note 138 of
the Kitab-i-Aqdas). Current practices given are for the Eastern,
Western and Baha'i World Centre communities
(2) References given are for determining the days for observances only.
For example, Naw-Ruz is commanded in K16, but Q35 fixes the day
astronomically.
(3) First, Ninth and Twelfth are Holy Days
(4) Shoghi Effendi, quoted in "Dawn of a New Day", p.68, outlines the
proper time to celebrate these Holy Days. However, the solar or lunar
determination of the dates are subject to legislation by the Universal
House of Justice.
Loving regards,
stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
To: Talisman
Subject: Greetings
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 17:37:12 -0500
From: "William P. Collins"
-- [ From: William P. Collins * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
It has been several months since I was last subscribed to Talisman (I
needed the respite), so it is appropriate that I introduce myself again to
those who subscribe to the list. In fairness to the real complexities of
the human reality, however, I preface this introduction with my favorite
words from the Broadway musical "A Chorus Line": "What am I to say? Am I my
resume. which is a picture of a person I don't know?" So I give you a
resume, but it is not me.
People usually call me Bill. My ancestors, may God's peace be upon them,
appear to be the typical British and northern European stock that took over
the native territories and turned them into New England. My great-
grandfather John Collins came from Northamptonshire to the U.S. in the 1870s
. He married Mary L. Denison, descendant of stern New England
congregationalist stock that produced a number of Harvard-graduated clergy:
the Denisons, Miners, Chesebroughs, Crandalls, Palmers, Tracys, Clarkes,
Ingrahams, and so forth. Some of those ancestors (Howlands and Tilleys)
were on the Mayflower, though one of them, thank goodness, was an indentured
servant. They were met by my wife's Wampanoag ancestors, who got them
through that legendary winter that we associate with Thanksgiving. My
mother's family are mostly descendants of Palatine immigrants who were
brought to New York state by Governor Hunter to make naval stores on the
Hudson. The naval stores project never worked, but the Palatines were
terribly successful - the largest single immigration during the colonial
period. One of my ancestors, Johannes Leyer/Layer, is the progenitor of the
Lawyer family. Everyone you know with that last name is descended from him.
I was born in 1950 and grew up in the small hamlet of Brisben, about 20
miles north of Binghamton. I was an introspective kid, read a lot of
history and Shakespeare, and never was without a sense that God was around.
I studied all the religions during my teenage years, and heard about the
Baha'i Faith from a television program in 1968 just after I graduated from
high school (my valedictory address was about unity). I became a Baha'i
that fall at Middlebury College, after independently reading the Kitab-i-
Iqan, Gleanings, Prayers & Meditations, Baha'i World Faith, Some Answered
Questions, and The Advent of Divine Justice. The first Baha'is I met were
those who came to enroll me.
At Middlebury I majored in French and Russian, with minors in Spanish and
Geology (B.A. 1972). I got a Masters in Library Science from Syracuse
University in 1973, and worked at Middlebury College for three years. In
1976-77 I worked at the State Historical Society of Wisconsin. From 1977-
1990 I was Librarian of the Baha'i World Centre. And now I work at the
Library of Congress.
I have written a few articles, mostly on the Faith and some about
librarianship, and compiled a bibliography. I just completed my Master of
Social Science degree at Syracuse University by independent study, with a
thesis on "The Millerites and Time Prophecy: Their Function as Millennial
Themes in the American Baha'i Community."
I have two children, both teenagers. My wife Rachel is an artist and
scientific illustrator who happens to have been trained as a librarian and
archivist.
I like a cappella music. Five guys at the World Centre were part of a doo-
wop group called The Carmels. I am also thrilled by the current spate of
movies based on Jane Austen's novels. If you haven't seen "Persuasion" and
"Sense and Sensibility", what are you doing with your time?
There's much more, but it would probably bore you. I do not post much; I
read and listen and bide my time.
Bill Collins
wcol@loc.gov
--
William Collins
6819 Stoneybrooke Lane, Alexandria, VA 22306, USA
wcol@loc.gov (w) or 4705541@mcimail.com (h)
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 18:09:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: EVOLUTION
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Linda, As a former geologist with six years of training as a
paleontologist, I second your remarks. The universe as seen through the
lens of the evolutionary process is truly grand and exciting. I for one
am glad to be free from the shackles of the fundamentalist approach to
science. I am reminded of a wonderful account that occurred just after the
publication of Darwin's _Origin of Species_. As we all know, many of the
more conservative theologians at that time objected to Darwin's view
because they thought it somehow lessened the grandeur and power of God.
Other more thoughtful theologians argued that the theory of evolution made
God seem much more powerful and grand because, as they said: Before Darwin
we were taught that God in "his" greatness made the universe in six days,
but now we know that God is greater, for "he" created the universe to
create itself!
I've always thought the Baha'i discussion of evolution could benefit from
the insights found in process philosophy and theology, especially the work
of Henri Bergson, Alfred North Whitehead and Charles Hartsworne. Bergson's
_Creative Evolution_ is especially good, IMO, in dealing with Abdul-Baha's
comments about evolution. Anyone care to respond? I would need to reread my
Bergson to delve into this further, but I have promised myself to do this
for a long time.
LW>Dear Mark, I cannot for the life of me understand what you mean by not
LW>the tools for studying evolution empirically. There are a multitude of
LW>study various aspects of evolution using excellent scientific methodolo
LW>What else do you want? Why do Baha'is in the 1990s have to sound like
LW>Christian fundamentalist students who literally will not look at ape an
LW>hominid skulls when I take them for tours of the anthropology museum?
LW>stuff is so exciting. I find it difficult to believe that intelligent
LW>don't relish in this stuff knowing that we are liberated from old relig
LW>views that denied people the right to explore the universe without fear
LW>breaking religious law.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers. Vol
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 18:05:12
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston),
talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re[2]: Darwin on the Brain...
I'm not sure anyone can PROVE `Abdu'l-Baha wrong in a matter such as
evolution, but there are varying levels of probability to consider.
IF `Abdu'l-Baha's statements about evolution are meant to STATE that
humans never had any genetic interaction with the rest of life on the
Earth--that humanity is a completely independent tree of life on the
Earth--then there are massive scientific problems. As I said, one can
hold such a position; but if one does, one cannot condemn Christian
Fundamentalists for maintaining that the fossils in the rocks were
created by Satan to fool us. The issue is that the harmony of science
and religion--one principle stated by `Abdu'l-Baha--would contradict
your understanding of the principle of infallibility (and possibly the
Baha'i understanding of infallibility; the exact nature of this
principle is not clear either).
But whether this conflict really exists is not yet clear. First of
all, the statements by `Abdu'l-Baha about evolution are either from
oral talks--nonscripture--or from unreliable translations. Possibly
the entire issue of interpreting `Abdu'l-Baha will be resolved by
better translations. Or, possibly, the issue will become more
complex.
Now, one other matter: `Abdu'l-Baha and science. Considering that
Shoghi Effendi's secretary has said Shoghi Effendi was not infallible
in matters of science and economics, and we have a letter of the House
of Justice noting that `Abdu'l-Baha reported to a group of friends
information about martyrdoms in Yazd that had been reported to Him but
was not correct, we have, I think, reason to wonder whether
`Abdu'l-Baha sould be considered infallible in science. (These
documents have been posted on Talisman several times.) But there will
have to be a lot more work done before we can settle this matter.
Even if `Abdu'l-Baha is not infallible in matters of science, I am not
sure whether that would "marginalize... [Him] to the outskirts of
science." That depends on what we mean by "marginalize" and
"outskirts."
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain...
Author: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) at INTERNET
Date: 12/16/95 7:02 PM
Robert Stockman wrote:
It is better to
> remember (1) `Abdu'l-Baha was making theological statements, not
> scientific ones, and possibly not even philosophical ones;
This appears to marginalise the station of 'Abdu'l-Baha to the outskirts of
science. Even the fool Heidegger knew that modern science was a mere
branch of metaphysics. Robert, if you can prove 'Abdu'l-Baha wrong, then
I'll listen. If you can't then I humbly suggest you give Him the benefit
of the doubt...[at least]
Robert (barking mad on a long black Sunday afternoon) Johnston
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:21:54 +1200
To: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
ffolks,
Dann, Robert S and Linda (et al) express their positions on
evolution in extreme ways. That is: if yer not with Darwin yer a
fundamentalist and think the world was made in seven days. The
articulation of this polarity is a sure indication of the weakness of BOTH
positions. Any intellectual position that is not moderate is untrue.
Robert.
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 18:11:35 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Safa Sadeghpour
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
At 02:21 PM 12/18/95 +1200, Robert Johnston wrote:
>ffolks,
> Dann, Robert S and Linda (et al) express their positions on
>evolution in extreme ways. That is: if yer not with Darwin yer a
>fundamentalist and think the world was made in seven days. The
>articulation of this polarity is a sure indication of the weakness of BOTH
>positions. Any intellectual position that is not moderate is untrue.
Dear Robert,
It might be better to present specific arguments against a specific positions
instead of proclaiming general conditions of truth.
It is not true that anything that is not moderate is necessarily
not true. A perfect example might be that of God's existence: Is
God's existence true, or does He half-exist? Existence or non-existence. . .
the two extremes are the only options.
Take care.
Safa
>
>Robert.
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"My goal is simple. It is complete understanding of the universe, why it as
it is and why it exists as all." - Stephen Hawking
"Truth decays into beauty, while beauty soon becomes merely charm. Charm
ends up as strangeness, and even that doesn't last, but up and down are
forever." - The Laws of Physics
"The shining spark of truth comes forth only from the clash of differing
opinions." Abdu'l-Baha
Safa Sadeghpour (think@ucla.edu)
http://www.smc.edu/homepage/maclab/maclab.web/web/safa.web/safa.htm
=END=
From: PayamA@aol.com
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 21:54:42 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: The 1995 figures on the Removal and Restoring of Rights
Since removal of rights usually involves 'active' Baha'is, then I think we
should use the number for the Baha'i population that represents the active
community. Wouldn't that put the number closer to 0.1% ?
That number, though very small, is about the same as the pecentage of the
population that are Baha'is in many countries. And we feel those numbers are
highly significant.
Payam
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 19:24:18 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: The Truth of MENSA without the N in DC the other story ! A tale of
varied pranks part one !
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians
Linda's wild antics at Mensa with out the N or John and Juan's reasons
for wearing dark glasses in the middle of the night in Washington DC.
Linda very kindly admitted to a fit of the giggles in the line at the
Hotel at the thought of tap-dancing on the Registration desk to the
song 'Oh why are we waiting '. She failed to mention kicking the
Achilles heels of two people ahead of her so she could advance in
line .While they rolled in agony on the floor .Off telling the gray
haired gentleman from Morocco his French girlfriend was waiting in the
Hotel Sportsbar . The gentleman's wife grabbed him by the throat saying
the immortal words "I knew this wasn't an academic forum . " The
commotion that followed saw our Linda slipping to the head of the line
.
She then dragged over the registration counter the clerk who refused
to upgrade the Walbridge room to a suite ,claiming the person was
prejudiced against Shiite women scholars . The Hotel had to promise
to place a full page of advertising in Linda's book when it comes out
, have given her free hotel soap for life as well as a monthly shower
cap to be hand delivered to Bloomington Indiana., to the Walbridge
Estates .
Every morning at breakfast she baited an innocent scholar from Egypt
with the taunt " No good works since the Pyramids in your backyard
Sonny Boy " Kept throwing pieces of melon at the a Sunni Sufi
Academic followed with the chant : The Caliphs got you down and be
a loser in Mecca .
The plenary session presentation on the role of Mystics in the
development of Islamic Jurisprudence was twice stopped by Linda
doing cartwheels on stage . Her explanation to the assembled and
rather confused academics was that carting needed looking into as a
form of thought processing in the early days of Islamic Community
development and especially the thorny issue of the ijaza that required
riding backwards transsexual donkeys the 6th Monday of each month .
Two bearded Imams from Kuwait wearing long flowing robes got
accosted by Linda at dinner on the second night to the cry " I can
twirl better without a beard watch me spin , Women save it " Both
chaps had a poor command of English and thought Linda wanted to shave
off their beards and left on the next flight home nervous wrecks .
The Nights were one terrible incident after another including chasing
my dear friend Juan Cole around the hotel lobby using a foghorn to
bellow out : Watch me dunk this one in the Pool .and where are your
leather clad female twins cousins now Matey !.
The DC Mosque incident was very bad in addition to yelling "Watch it
Bandaged Heads " She sprayed with pepper the next speaker causing
him to cancel due to sneezing . Then did an Irish jig with the odd
repeated remark this is what they did in Fustat in 152 AH . Finishing
off by getting the daughters of the Imam-Jumih of Washington DC
Mosque to dance the Can-Can to her loud shouts of ; you won't get
them back on the Farm now that they have seen Paris .
I will post on Tuesday more of the various happenings that occurred .
I believe poor John has really been put through a lot .
Especially when Linda burst into the study session on modernization of
Druze's Society to the 21st century demanding they read "Javid Nama "
as the salvation to their problem . When they refused she promptly
spray painted them in bright yellow .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 16:09:13 +1200
To: Safa Sadeghpour , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
Dear Safa,
>
>It might be better to present specific arguments against a specific positions
>instead of proclaiming general conditions of truth.
One thing that amazes me is the logical inconsistencies of empiricistic
personages. In your above sentence you do what you ask me not to do. Are
you able to see this? If not we can spent more time examining the matter.
>
>It is not true that anything that is not moderate is necessarily
>not true. A perfect example might be that of God's existence: Is
>God's existence true, or does He half-exist? Existence or non-existence. . .
>the two extremes are the only options.
First of all, what I wrote was : "Any intellectual position that is not
moderate is untrue." A ref. for this: Baha'i Faith is the religion of the
middle way (Shoghi Effendi). The Darwinistic viewpoint expresses itself in
anti-religious forms (see letters to Talisman which again seek to devalue
the station of 'Abdu'l-Baha, etc; and Darwin's own works): fundamentalism
expresses itself in anti-scientific forms. These are extreme positions.
To state that God exists is not an immoderate statement. To state that MY
GOD exists and yours doesn't is immoderate. That that is just was these
Darwinists and fundamentalists are doing. They are the flip side of each
other, and not susceptible to rational argumentation.
God wins the day, brother: moderation is ultimately determined by
relationship to the Word of God. An intellectual position that departs
from the Word of God eventually becomes implicated in immoderation.
I not longer expect that what I write will have anymore influence than has
a snowball in hell. But it seems that, like the sparrow, I am destined to
sit on the wire and sing, for no apparently good reason...
Robert.
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 19:40:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 4
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
First a note of thanks to all who continue to send private supportive
emails about comments on Fadil's case. I don't mean to sound rude by
this, but you must forgive me if I don't engage in further discussion
of this episode and the specifics of the case -- mostly since I really
don't know all the details (I thought I made that very clear already),
but also partly because I believe we can do the memory of this great
man a disservice by continuing to discuss his case.
But since I love Fadil's work, I will continue to discuss ZH series.
And before I do, please allow me to make a suggestion and hope that
Rob Stockman would forward it for the consideration of appropriate
committee:
A formal Fadil-i Mazandarani lectures be instituted at the annual
History Conferences in Wilmette.
Given that Fadil is the most productive historian of our Cause
(whatever you feel about the merits of his work, he produced nearly
9,000 pages of text on history of the Cause), then its befitting that
such a memorial lecture, much like Balyuzi lectures at ABS, be
inaugurated in his honor.
OK, that was my last word about the man, from now on I will focus only
on his work, still hoping that others will join the discussion ...
As you recall we begin outlining contents of Zuhuru l-Haqq, vol. 3,
(ZH-3) and decided to divide its contents into seven categories, the
first being the Writings of the Bab quoted in that volume and outlined
these Writings which appear in the first quarter of the book. Now I
like to pick up where I left unfinished.
P139-40: Persian, 0.4 pages, excerpt from Dala'il-i Sab'ih (the
Seven Proofs) which refers to Mulla Husayn. (Notes: you will also
find this quoted on page 23, note 5, of the Dawn-breakers). My own
provisional translation follows: "You are acquainted with him who
believed first, [Mulla Husayn]. You know that the majority of the
learned Shaykhi and the Siyyidiyyih and other sects admired his
knowledge and virtues. When he came to Isfahan the urchins of the
town cried out as he passed, "ragged student has arrived on behalf of
the Siyyid [Kazim-i Rashti]!" But this man by his proofs and
arguments convinced the great scholar of that land by the name of
Muhammad-Baqir! Truly that is one of the proofs of this
Manifestation, for after the death of the Siyyid, may God's exaltation
be upon him in paradise, this personage went to see most of the
doctors and found Truth only with the Master of Truth [the Bab]. It
was then that he attained the destiny which had been determined for
him. In truth the people from the beginning until the end, till the
Day of Resurrection, envy him. And who then can accuse this
master-mind of mental weakness and infidelity?"
P140: Arabic, 0.8 page, an extract about Mulla Husayn where his
virtues are extolled and the Bab says unto the people of the world
that they must fear God and believe in Him, much as has Mulla Husayn.
P140-2: Arabic, 2 pages, the opening paragraphs of a Tablet of
Visitation revealed in Mulla Husayn's honor. (Note: I know from
elsewhere that this Tablet of Visitation is 300 pages long and only
recently was relocated.)
(P142: Persian and Arabic, two excerpts by Baha'u'llah about Mulla
Husayn)
P149-50: Arabic, 1.4 pages, Tablet addressed to Mulla Sadiq-i
Khurasani revealed in Bushihr where specific instructions are given
him about his proclamation of the new Day in Shiraz.
P150-51: Arabic, 0.6 pages, a prayer revealed in honor of Mulla Sadiq
where the Bab says he deserves the rewards of a 1000 martyrs.
P164-66: Arabic, 2 pages, a Tablet addressed to Mulla Shaykh Ali
Turshizi (`Azim), revealed towards the end of Mah-Ku period, where the
Bab raises the call of Qa'imiyyat through `Azim. (This Tablet is of
fundamental importance in understanding the station of the Bab and
must be translated someday soon.)
P169: Arabic, 0.3 pages, a portion of a Tablet addressed to Hajji
Mirza Hasan-i Mashhadi.
P173: Arabic, 0.2 pages, a portion of a Tablet addressed to Mulla
Abdu'l-Khaliq Yazdi
(P73-74: Persian, 0.3 pages, a portion of Tablet of Baha'u'llah where
he recalls how Mulla Abdu'l-Khaliq recanted his faith on seeing the
Bab's claim to Qa'imiyyat)
P223-25: Persian, 2.5 pages, a Tablet of the Bab addressed to His
own family where He outlines His own stations, provides conclusive
proofs based on Qur'anic and Hadith prophecies, draws parallels
between Himself and Muhammad and finally says those who believe in Him
are considered denizens of paradise with the rest as dwellers of hell.
Another very important Tablet begging to be translated.
P231-32: Arabic, 0.2 pages, a portion of Tablet of Visitation for
the shrine of Shah Abdu'l-Azim (located in the southern portion of
Tihran). The Bab expresses His wish to be buried in the vicinity of
this shrine, near Tihran, under the shadow of His "Beloved". (A wish
which came through as Baha'u'llah instructed His remains buried in a
wall there for a period of time, prior to eventual move to Haifa.)
P235: Arabic, 0.3 pages, a portion of an early Tablet where the Bab
instruct His followers to gather in Iraq (Kufih) after His return from
pilgrimage.
P243: Persian, 0.1 pages, regarding Vahid-i Darabi and Siyyid Javad
Karbali, He states: "In the belief of any believer nonfulfillment
(bada`) is possible, except in the certitude of Vahid-i Akbar (Siyyid
Yahya) and Siyyid Javad-i Karbali nonfulfillment is not possible."
(That is, anyone but these two can loss faith -- a statement worthy of
much pondering.)
P244: Arabic, 0.1 pages, addressed to Siyyid Javad-i Karbala'i where
he is referred to as one of the Witnesses.
P255(footnote): Arabic, 0.1 pages, addressed to Mulla Muhammad-Baqir,
one of the Letters, about the importance of acquisition of sciences
and knowledge.
P266: Arabic, 2 pages, the first page is a reprint of the Bab's
handwriting prior to His Declaration, and the second is a reprint of
His well-known Tablet on Qa'imiyyat.
P265: Arabic, 0.4 pages, a prayer where He laments the deeds of
Husayn-Khan the governor of Shiraz.
P268-69: Arabic, 0.5 pages, a prayer in which He recalls some of the
misdeeds towards Him in the early days after His Declaration and how
people due to their ego turned away from Him.
P269-70: Arabic, 1 page, another prayer where he laments on the
perversity of people, their lack of acceptance and events in the early
days of Shiraz.
(to be continued)
lovingly, ahang.
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:27:19 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Zuhuru'l-Haqq
Much love and many thanks to Ahang for providing us with information on the
background and content of Fadil-i Mazandarani's Zuhur al-Haqq. Indeed, it is
an enormous blessing to have Ahang with us, and to have him so generously
share his deep knowledge of Baha'i history and literature with us. We must
all be grateful.
As I understand from Roy Mottahedeh, the policy of calling for the
collection of local Baha'i histories among the believers in Iran was actually
initiated by the Greatest Holy Leaf during her brief tenure as the
acting-Head of the Baha'i Faith after the passing of 'Abdu'l-Baha and during
Shoghi Effendi's retirement to Europe. According to Roy, her policy was
aimed at holding things together in the Iranian community after the traumatic
loss of the Master. Of course, this policy was continued and extended by the
Guardian.
In addition, according to Roy, the Greatest Holy Leaf seems to have
called for a census of the Baha'is in Iran at the same time. He told me that
he had seen the documents in Haifa, and that during the early 1920s, the
census yielded a number of 500,000 Baha'is in Iran. Yes, half a million!
Since there are now only 300,000 or so, this is extremely suggestive for the
recent history of the Faith in Iran.
Perhaps the publication of Zuhur al-Haqq may even shed some light on
this.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:38:22 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Review / Provisional Translations
Jonah:
Thank you very much for your question and for your kind words about
Kalimat Press. You are much appreciated here.
The translations of the writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah that are
found in Steve Lambden's essay in the fourth volume of the STUDIES series are
not provisional. They were all submitted to the World Center for approval,
and they were corrected and approved. So, this is an approved (authorized?)
translation, rather than a provisional one. That is how it got through
review.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 00:15:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: Member1700@aol.com
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: Review / Provisional Translations
AHA! Now I understand. So all of the translations that Lambden publishes
in his journal have also been "approved" the same way? The only
"provisional translations" we ever see in print are the ones posted on
Talisman? I notice that Chris used an ingenious device for translating in
his book: he called it a "paraphrase" which, I assume from reading the
_Revelation_ series et al., is accepted? How close of a "paraphrase"
would be accepted, if I may be so bold? ;-)
Thanks for your answers.
-Jonah
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 01:23:47 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Evolution
It does seem odd to me that Baha'is would insist on limiting 'Abdu'l-Baha's
remarks on evolution to a short scientific essay, while ignoring their much
more profound theological content. After all, as a scientific treatise, the
chapter in Some Answered Questions is not very interesting or helpful. As a
statement of morality and belief and social solidarity (as John has pointed
out) it is startling in its modernity and deep insight.
Not only should 'Abdu'l-Baha's remarks be understood in the light of
Islamic philosophy (again our thanks to John), but also in the light of the
popular ideas about evolution that were circulating in the West around the
turn of the century. That is, we must take into account where the question
was coming from--as well as where the answer was coming from.
In particular, I would point to the (false) notion that was then popular
that all animals could be ordered in some evolutionary hierarchy, with one
descended from another. So that men must be descended from chimpanzees, who
are descended from lower apes, and so forth. People literally believed that
human beings must be descended from monkeys as we know them. And there was
much made of trying to find the "missing link," that intermediate form
between the two species, etc. In this context, 'Abdu'l-Baha's statement
that man has always been man makes a great deal of scientific sense (that is,
that man has his own seperate line of evolutionary development)--not back to
the first amoeba, of course, but our ancestors were not chimpanzees, though
obviously we share common ancestors with them.
Warmest,
Tony
Tony
=END=
[end of 12/17/95
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----------------------------------------------------------
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 07:33:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: List Rule #11
Since it appears that a ~rbiography is a requirement for subscribers, I'm
emerging yet again from lurk mode to identify myself:
My name is Leigh Droege; I've been a Baha{'i since 1971 (declared during
a fit of teenage idealism and it stuck). Was born on Chicago's North
{Shore & grew up there, but spent most of my adult life in Minnesota before
deciding the cold was turning me homicidal. Moved to Florida last month.
Scholarly qualifications: none whatsoever. I'm a college dropout (majored
in Anthropology, minored in Geology) and have a tech zVschool degree in PC
repair and network administration. {Main interests and hobbies: Fantasy/SF
books & games, music (any style, any culture), natural sciences, fiddling
with obsolete computers (I'm still stubbornly using an Apple IIGS, although
I've got access to a PowerMac and an IBM Aptiva), and lurking in this list
(my newest obsession ). I've written _one_ article (unpublished, a
slightly ill-tempered review of a book attacking the Baha'i Faith from the
perspective of a Christian fundamentalist). Otherwise I've made no useful
contributions to society, although I'm hoping some of my music might
someday be found palatable.
A note: I saw that my previous post contained garbage characters. Those
were not typos; they're due to a very dirty phone line, which I hope to
remedy soon (hope being the operative word). I'm assuming this post will
be ssimilarly blessed, so apologies in advance.
{
Leigh
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Zuhur'l-Haqq and Encyclopedia
To: rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com (Ahang Rabbani)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 3:48:35 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Ahang writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^^
This makes Shoghi Effendi all upset with Zuhuru'l-Haqq as he
didn't like anything that deviated by a dot from the Dawnbreakers.
So on 15 September 1932, he writes (my inadequate translation):
"Immediately organize a special committee to investigate,
reorganize and bring into conformity Jinab-i Fadil's history
with that of Nabil's history [the Dawnbreakers]. Of this
task and grave responsibility, no delay is permitted, and
utmost effort must be diligently exerted."
Poor Fadil. After a letter like this from the Guardian, well,
his goose was cooked.
____________
RESPONSE
In Christian terms, this endeavor would be called a *Gospel Harmony*.
Considering that the *Dawnbreakers* is the Baha'i Gospel, the beloved
Guardian's concern makes sense.
The original Nabil and the *Dawnbreakers* and *Baha'u'llah, the King
of Glory* are the Synoptic Gospels. *Zuhur al-Haqq* is the Gospel of John.
Salmani and the other memoirs (Eric, can you repost Juan's description of
them?) is the Gospel of Thomas.
But the Dawnbreakers also had what would appear to be a critical
apparatus: its French and English footnotes. With this in mind, I have two
possibly *safe* uses of Zuhur al-Haqq to propose:
(1) Volume 5 (and possibly most of Vol. 4) should not be bound
by the Guardian's directive which Ahang translated, for the simple reason
that there is no *Dawnbreakers* covering Baha'u'llah's ministry requiring
harmonization.
(Note that I am pressing the very same distinction as Ahang in
differentiating between the Guardian's translation (and extensively
reworking) of Nabil in the *Dawnbreakers*, as distinct from Nabil's
manuscript itself.)
Therefore, unless Balyuzi's masterpiece, *Baha'u'llah, the King of
Glory* has the same status as the Dawbreakers (which I doubt), there
should be no restriction in the use of Zuhur al-Haqq for writing on
Baha'u'llah's life and work.
Indeed, considering the Guardian's probable reasons for NOT
translating the second half of Nabil, it may even be that ZH is superior
to the latter half of Nabil. Either way, use of ZH for research on
Baha'u'llah is not constrained by the directive in question (IMHO).
(2) As to Fadil's Babi material, at the very least, it ought
to enjoy the same status as the Footnotes to the Dawnbreakers. Some of
those footnotes were in French. These were translated into English. Why
not do the same with Vol. 3 of ZH?
Having said that, I look forward to Ahang's detailed description
of Vol. 4 of ZH. BTW, I agree completely with John Walbridge's reasons for
justifying the parallel between Zuhur al-Haqq and the Baha'i Encyclopedia
Project.
Now, Ahang, you were circumspect in not wishing to divulge any
more details regarding the persons and politics involved. But you have not
given a single example of where Fadil and Nabil disagree. Could you cite
an example? What about Zanjan?
One final comment: Surely Fadil has material that is supplemental
to Nabil. If so, what restrictions could there possibly be on Fadil's
material that is not covered by Nabil? As for Baha'u'llah, doesn't Nabil's
narrative contain miracle stories, whereas Fadil's chroncicles do not?
-- Christopher Buck
(Patiently waiting for Ishraq-Khavari's
lecture on the Tablet of the Holy Mariner!).
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 00:35:54 PST
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
To: talisman@indiana.edu
On Mon, 18 Dec 1995 16:09:13 +1200 Robert Johnston wrote:
>To state that God exists is not an immoderate statement. To state
that MY
>GOD exists and yours doesn't is immoderate. That that is just was
these
>Darwinists and fundamentalists are doing.
>
>I not longer expect that what I write will have anymore influence
than has
>a snowball in hell. But it seems that, like the sparrow, I am
destined to
>sit on the wire and sing, for no apparently good reason...
>
>Robert.
>
>
>
Really Robert!
This "poor misunderstood messenger" position doesn't call forth a lot
of sympathy from me and feels vaguely like an accusation that your
thoughts are not being fairly considered.
Speaking for my self, I do listen to your "vendor's song," but in
this issue, I'm not buying.
Also, the sparrow's reasons for singing vary. Sometimes the best
reason for singing is because you have a song-o!
Finally, these godless Darwinists you've been talking to really
represent only a portion of the Darwinists in the world, many of whom
imagine God is ways you might find acceptable.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 12/18/95
Time: 00:35:54
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:18:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: Member1700@aol.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Zuhuru'l-Haqq
On Sun, 17 Dec 1995 Member1700@aol.com wrote:
> In addition, according to Roy, the Greatest Holy Leaf seems to have
> called for a census of the Baha'is in Iran at the same time. He told me that
> he had seen the documents in Haifa, and that during the early 1920s, the
> census yielded a number of 500,000 Baha'is in Iran. Yes, half a million!
> Since there are now only 300,000 or so, this is extremely suggestive for the
> recent history of the Faith in Iran.
I think this was undertaken by the Guardian, not the Greatest Holy Leaf.
That's what Roy Mottahedeh told me, and I know that Shoghi Effendi
undertook such a census in the West, because the lists that were compiled
for him are in the US Baha'i Archives.
Richard
=END=
Sub: ... no subject ...
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:08:04 +0000 (MULTINET_TIMEZONE)
From: maeissin@ichange.com (Michael Eissinger)
To: jwinters@epas.utoronto.ca
Cc: Member1700@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Sorry about the length, but this might help clear up this question.
This is a copy of a letter posted by Robert Stockman, earlier on one of
the NewsGroups...
26 November 1994
The questions which you put to Mr. XXXXXXXXXXXX on 23 August 1994 were
submitted by him to the Universal House of Justice, and were in turn
referred
to the Research Department for its comments on issues which had already
been
determined in the past by the House of Justice. The Research
Department's
memorandum dated 26 November is enclosed, and it is hoped that its
contents and
the extracts attached to it will help to clarify some of the points
which you
raised.
In response to your concerns about a category of "approved"
translators
and the potential inequities to which this might lead, the House of
Justice
wishes you to know that it does not have such a list of translators who
are
exempt from the requirement of submitting their provisional translations
to the
Baha'i World Centre for approval prior to publication. All individuals
must
continue to submit their provisional translations to the World Centre
for
approval. In making their submissions, they are free to request
permission to
publish specific provisional translations, and these will be considered
on a
case by case basis.
At this time the House of Justice is giving consideration to
decentralizing, to the extent advisable and feasible, the
responsibilities
for revising existing translations or preparing new translations of
hitherto
untranslated texts. It is certainly not the intention of the House of
Justice
to discourage Baha'i scholarship among the believers; on the contrary it
attaches great importance to this area of activity. The existing
policies are,
by their very nature, temporary, and should be viewed as such by Baha'i
scholars.
Your recommendation that a translation reviewing committee, made up
of
translators whose work is known to the House of Justice, be formed under
the
auspices of the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, was
not
approved.
The House of Justice assures you of its prayers for the success of
your
endeavours in discharging your important responsibilities.
With loving Baha'i greetings,
For Department of the Secretariat
Enclosure with attachment
M E M O R A N D U M
To: The Universal House of Justice Date: 26 November
1994
From: Research Department
Policy Concerning Provisional Translations
The Research Department has studied the electronic mail messages
dated
23 August 1994 and 14 September 1994 from XXXXXXXXXXXXX to XXXXXXXXXXX,
who
conveyed them to the Universal House of Justice at XXXXXXXXXXXX's
request.
XXXXXXXXXXX enquires about the current policies and procedures
concerning the
publication of new translations in the English language.
He sets out his understanding of the present situation as follows:
...if a Baha'i scholar writes an article about some aspect of the
Baha'i
Faith he cannot translate a passage from the untranslated writings
into
English and publish it without first sending the translation to the
Universal House of Justice for approval. Presumably it is possible
for
the scholar to paraphrase the passage; he might even translate
phrases and
collections of words, but not put quotation marks around them,
thereby
disguising the fact that they are a translation. But it is not
permissible to translate even a few words within quotation marks,
even if
the footnote states the translation is a provisional one by the
author.
XXXXXXXXXXX also calls attention to recent decisions of the
Universal
House of Justice permitting XXXXXXXXXX and others to publish provisional
translations. He cites a memorandum dated 8 September 1991, written on
behalf
of the House of Justice, which states:
The first question ... concerns the use of provisional (and
therefore
unreviewed) translations of the Baha'i Writings that appeared in an
article by XXXXXXXXXX. We have been asked to say that the policy
of the
House of Justice in this matter has not changed and that
translations into
English, and revisions of earlier translations into that language,
must be
checked at the World Centre and officially approved before
publication.
There have been, however, occasions when the House of Justice has
permitted the publication of provisional translations made by
individuals
whose work is known to it. In these cases the translations usually
appear
in scholarly or other publications of limited distribution and are
not
likely to be used as a basis for translations into other languages.
Such
usage does not alter the general policy as stated above.
In light of the foregoing, XXXXXXXXXXX expresses disquiet that perhaps
two
categories of scholars are being created -- those whose translations
need to be
submitted to the World Centre for approval and those who are exempt from
this
requirement. He asks whether, in fact, there is a list of "approved"
Baha'i
translators and raises a number of questions about its membership and
the
practical implications of having such a list, e.g., the possibility that
the
National Spiritual Assembly of the United States might appoint a
translation
reviewing committee which could, potentially, serve to speed up review,
give
translators new opportunities to gain experience and encourage a larger
volume
of new translations.
Current Policies
We attach a compilation of extracts from communications written by
and on
behalf of the House of Justice relating to the publication of new
translations
from which the following facts emerge:
- An "authorized" translation is defined as a translation "approved
by one
or more translation committees appointed by the House of Justice".
Such
a translation may be improved or amended in the future [10].
- "Keen and capable scholars" are not prohibited from translating
passages
from the Sacred Writings [4].
- The policy calling for the submission of new translations into
English
to the Universal House of Justice for approval was first
articulated in
the memorandum on Baha'i publishing in 1971 (extract [1]). It has
been
reiterated on a number of occasions (extracts [3], [4], [5], [8],
[9]).
- Currently, the World Centre assumes responsibility for:
- "the careful checking and approval of translations made into
English
from the original Writings". This policy is of importance
since
"translations into most other languages should be based on the
approved English texts and not be made directly and solely
from the
original texts". [4] and [5]
- deciding "what Works of Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha are to be
translated when the time is ripe" [5], and for establishing a
priority for their translation [4] and [5]
- assessing the timeliness, the wisdom, and the potential impact
"on
the non-Baha'i public" of releasing translations on certain
subjects
[4]
- Given the pressure of work of the Translation Committee at the
World
Centre, the Universal House of Justice has made the following
provisions
which can apply in the absence of an approved translation:
- provisional translations of passages can be prepared to assist
individuals in their study, but they should not be published
"unless they are checked and approved by the World Centre" [5]
- an author may replace "unauthorized translations" with
"general
descriptions of [the] contents" of the passages [6]
- authors may "paraphrase the passages" they wish to include in
their
manuscripts [8]
- While not altering the "general policy", there have been occasions
when
the Universal House of Justice has "permitted the publication of
provisional translations made by individuals whose work is known to
it"
[9]. This provision appears to operate under the following
circumstances:
- when the author is known to be competent, "there is no
objection
in principle" to the publication of unauthorized translations
"if
clearly identified as provisional in character" [7]
- "the translations usually appear in scholarly or other
publications
of limited distribution" [9]
- the translations "are not likely to be used as a basis for
translations into other languages" [9]
Application of the Policies
While it is very difficult to piece together a coherent picture of
the
application of the policies concerning the publication of new
translations in
the English language, we offer the following comment based on material
provided
by the Master Reference File and a perusal of a number of Baha'i
journals and
publications.
- The National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, its
Publishing
Trust, and individual American believers appear to have received
the most
detailed guidance from the Universal House of Justice about the
need to
submit new translations for approval prior to publication.
- Publishing Trusts and other Baha'i publishers submit new
translations for
approval prior to publication.
- In the United Kingdom, the "Baha'i Studies Bulletin", which first
appeared
in 1982, regularly features provisional translations by such
individuals
as XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX,
XXXXXXXXXX,
XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, and XXXXXXXXXX.
Originally designed as a channel for communication between Baha'is
interested in the scholarly study of the Faith, this journal was
produced
in mimeographed form. It appeared infrequently and had a very
limited
circulation. Since 1991, the "Baha'i Studies Bulletin" has become
more
professional in appearance and it is published on a more regular
schedule.
No information is available about the number of people who
subscribe to
it.
To date, the Research Department has not been able to locate any
communications between the Universal House of Justice and the
National
Spiritual Assembly of the United Kingdom or the editors of the
"Baha'i
Studies Bulletin" concerning the publication of provisional
translations
in this journal. It is clear, however, that some of those whose
translations were published in the "Bulletin" in the early 1980s
were
aware of the need to submit their translations to the World Centre
for
approval and they complied with this requirement for publications
other
than the "Bulletin".
It is possible that, from the outset, the "Baha'i Studies Bulletin"
was
not regarded as a publication, but rather as a means for sharing
notes and
manuscripts between friends and scholars.
- "The Journal of Baha'i Studies" published in Canada includes
provisional
translations made either by the author of an article or someone
else.
Such translations are identified as "provisional", often in a
footnote.
It is interesting to observe that some of these provisional
translations
have been taken from the "Baha'i Studies Bulletin".
- With regard to the statement written on behalf of the Universal
House of
Justice to the effect that "there have been ... occasions when the
House
of Justice has permitted the publication of provisional
translations made
by individuals whose work is known to it" [9]: Based on the
materials
we had assembled, apart from the situation of XXXXXXXXXX, which was
specifically mentioned by the House of Justice, we have been
unsuccessful
in our attempts to identify other such "occasions".
- With regard to the case of XXXXXXXXXX, the permission granted by
the
House of Justice does not appear to be a blanket permission, but
rather
pertains to particular translations XXXXXXXXXX wanted to use in his
paper.
Please refer to extract [7] in the attached compilation.
- We have not been able to identify a list of "approved" translators
who are
exempted from the requirement of submitting their translations to
the
World Centre for approval prior to publication.
Attachment
POLICIES AND PROCEDURES CONCERNING THE PUBLICATION OF TRANSLATIONS
Extracts from Communications Written by and on Behalf of
the Universal House of Justice
As regards English, the beloved Guardian's translations are
obviously the
most authentic and should be used. If, for some particular reason, a
Baha'i
author, when quoting a passage of the Sacred Text which has been
rendered into
English by the Guardian, wishes to use a translation other than that
made by
the beloved Guardian, his request may be referred to the Universal House
of
Justice. Passages from the Sacred Text not translated by Shoghi
Effendi, but
already in English and published with approval, may be used. If an
author
wishes to make his own translation of a passage not already translated
by
Shoghi Effendi, the new translation may be submitted to the Universal
House of
Justice for approval.
(Ridvan 1971, from a memorandum by the Universal House of
Justice on
Baha'i publishing addressed to "National Spiritual Assemblies
and
all those concerned with the production of Baha'i
publications")[1]
There is definitely a gray area between publication on the one hand
and
the sharing of notes and manuscripts between friends and fellow-scholars
on the
other. Recognizing this distinction the House of Justice has made
several
decisions over the years which have a bearing on your question.
1. It has been decided that doctoral theses and similar treatises
submitted to institutions of learning for the obtaining of a
degree
are not subject to Baha'i review unless they are to be
published
more widely than is required for the degree in question....
(11 May 1982, from a letter written on behalf of the Universal
House
of Justice to an individual believer)
[2]
The Universal House of Justice has no objection in principle to
your
Trust's publishing translations of previously untranslated Tablets, but
it
would like to know which Tablets or passages are being considered for
publication.
As to approval of the translations, Mr. ... is in frequent contact
with
the World Centre and is familiar with the fact that whenever he wishes
to have
any of his translations published he should submit them to the World
Centre for
checking.
(25 July 1982, written on behalf of the Universal House of
Justice
to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States)
[3]
As you know, the World Centre is responsible for the careful
checking and
approval of translations made into English from the original Writings.
The
House of Justice feels that, in the present circumstances, the time has
not yet
come to relinquish this responsibility or to delegate it to a committee
outside
the Holy Land. This is of particular significance as it is the current
policy
of the House of Justice that translations into most other languages
should be
based on the approved English texts and not be made directly and solely
from
the original texts.
The Publishing Trust will readily realize that this process of
approval of
translations is very time-consuming. For your information, we have been
asked
to point out that there are several Tablets which have already been
rendered
into English by competent translators, yet their approval has had to be
postponed until a future time, notwithstanding the fact that their
contents can
be extremely useful to the friends everywhere, as they include specific
Tablets
revealed by Baha'u'llah or `Abdu'l-Baha suitable for devotional readings
at
Baha'i Holy Days and anniversaries. The little time, therefore, that
can be
spared at the World Centre for approval of translations of Sacred Texts
into
English should primarily be devoted to projects which would be of direct
benefit to the believers or promote the teaching work....
Furthermore, as you are well aware, the enemies of the Faith would
use any
pretext to attack the Baha'i community and discredit its Founders or its
teachings. It is therefore not wise at this time to undertake
large-scale
projects to publish the Writings of Baha'u'llah, or those of the Bab and
`Abdu'l-Baha, without carefully assessing the effect of such
publications on
the non-Baha'i public.... This, of course, does not mean that such keen
and
capable scholars as Mr. ... should be prohibited from translating
passages from
the Sacred Writings or, indeed, entire Tablets, provided this is done
with
discrimination and, possibly, as indicated in the letter of your
Publishing
Trust dated 21 June, undertaken in stages with adequate annotations for
reproduction in, or incorporation in articles for, the "World Order"
magazine.
Such a procedure would avoid placing too much pressure on the World
Centre at
this time.
(19 December 1982, written on behalf of the Universal House of
Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United
States)[4]
The decision on what Works of Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha are to
be
translated when the time is ripe is taken by the Universal House of
Justice....
As you will appreciate, the volume of the Sacred Writings is far greater
than can possibly be translated at the present time; therefore the House
of
Justice has to concentrate on obtaining translations of those texts that
are of
immediate relevance to the work of the Cause at this stage of its
development.
If any of your Iranian friends have Tablets in Persian of which you do
not have
a translation, there would be no objection to your having them give you
a
provisional translation of any passages which particularly interest you.
Such
translations should not be published, however, unless they are checked
and
approved by the World Centre, since translations into English form the
basis
for translations into most other languages and it is vital for them to
be as
accurately and beautifully made as possible.
(19 October 1983, written on behalf of the Universal House of
Justice to an individual believer)
[5]
EDITED TEXTS OF TWO TABLETS ARE NOT PARAPHRASES, BUT UNAUTHORIZED
TRANSLATIONS.
OWING PRESSURE WORK HERE, SUGGEST REPLACE THESE PASSAGES WITH
GENERAL
DESCRIPTIONS OF CONTENTS....
(23 August 1988, telex from the Universal House of Justice to
a
publisher)
[6]
XXXXXXXXXX has requested confirmation on the acceptability of the the
publication of his provisional translations in the paper before you on
Matter.
Although these extracts cannot be reviewed here for the present, there
is no
objection in principle, given the competence of the author, to their use
if
clearly identified as provisional in character.
(21 November 1990, written on behalf of the Universal House of
Justice to the Association for Baha'i Studies, Canada)
[7]
It is noted that you are hoping to include English excerpts from
two
Tablets revealed by Baha'u'llah of which authorized translations are not
available. In view of pressures of work on the Translation Committee at
the
World Centre, it is regretted that it would not be possible for your
translations of extracts from the Writings of Baha'u'llah to be reviewed
and
approved by that Committee. It is suggested, therefore, that you do
what other
authors have done in similar cases, namely, paraphrase the passages
which you
wish to include in your manuscript.
(5 December 1990, written on behalf of the Universal House of
Justice to an individual believer)
[8]
The first question ... concerns the use of provisional (and
therefore
unreviewed) translations of the Baha'i Writings that appeared in an
article by
XXXXXXXXXX. We have been asked to say that the policy of the House of
Justice
in this matter has not changed and that translations into English, and
revisions of earlier translations in that language, must be checked at
the
World Centre and officially approved before publication. There have
been,
however, occasions when the House of Justice has permitted the
publication of
provisional translations made by individuals whose work is known to it.
In
these cases the translations usually appear in scholarly or other
publications
of limited distribution and are not likely to be used as a basis for
transla-
tions into other languages. Such usage does not alter the general
policy as
stated above.
(8 September 1991, from a memorandum written on behalf of the
Universal House of Justice to an individual believer)
[9]
With reference to your present request for clarification of the
difference in the use of "authorized" and "provisional" when describing
translations, we are to convey the following.
When a translation is approved by one or more translation
committees
appointed by the House of Justice, the translation is regarded as
authorized.
This does not mean it is final, as improvements or amendments can always
be
made in the future. In the work of translation from the original text
into
English, the following statement was made by Shoghi Effendi when he
released
the text of his translation of "The Kitab-i-Iqan":
This is one more attempt to introduce to the West, in language
however inadequate, this book of unsurpassed pre-eminence among the
writings of the Author of the Baha'i Revelation. The hope is that
it may assist others in their efforts to approach what must always
be regarded as the unattainable goal -- a befitting rendering of
Baha'u'llah's matchless utterance.
(11 February 1992, written on behalf of the Universal House of
Justice to an individual believer)
[10]
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: 90s pub stats
To: "Stockman, Robert"
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 9:53:30 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to Stockman, Robert:
>
>
> Fascinating statistics. But they need to be normalized to
> English-language membership to be useful.
OCLC is an international database with works in dozens of
languages. While English-language ephemera (e.g. pamphlets) may be
overrepresented compared to non-English works, for serious
books, especially contemporary ones, it is safe to assume that
at least one makes it into the collection of an OCLC library.
I checked the Spanish language publications to see whether or
not the situation was comparable; it was. Will look into other
languages but compare fewer traditions.
The Baha'is probably have
> about 250,000 English language speakers worldwide; the Mormons, five
> million (4.5 million of the some 8 million Mormons woldwide live in
> the U.S.); the Adventists, a million or so (there are 750,000 Seventh
> Day Adventists in the US alone). Spiritualism is a vaguely defined
> movement and I don't know what the estimates for membership are, but
> it is also a subject of a lot of popular and scholarly literature.
> The Christian Scientists probably have about twice the
> English-speaking membership of the Faith worldwide, so their numbers
> are comparable.
>
> It is not clear to me that one can conclude much about the impact of
> prepublication review from the statistics below.
It's more a reflection of the overall literary productivity of
the Faith (including works by outsiders about it), which has
many causes, one of which is presumably the review situation.
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 09:07:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- NSA's objections
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Chris Buck is right, I've not given examples as to what the
Iranian NSA objected to in ZH-3; I do so now.
But first a comment: during the past day or two, its been
brought to my attention, from an unimpeachable source, that
actually my comment that the Guardian didn't wish "a dot of
deviation from the Dawn-breakers" is not correct and that he was
fully aware of the limitations of this book and encouraged
alternative versions. This is fine. In good faith I accept
this. (And I'm not saying so as taqqiyyih). This would be
consistent with my view of the Guardian as a very progressive,
liberal mind.
However, the burden of proof for this claim is now with those
that hold such views that the beloved Guardian did not object to
deviations from the Dawn-breakers. I have posted the *only*
letter of the Guardian that I know on this subject, and I'm sure
there are *many* more. So, for now, I'm standing by my story,
but would love nothing more than being proved wrong. I say that
from the depth of my heart.
The letter that I quoted is dated 15 Sept 1932. Its an early
letter. The Iranian NSA's public letter is 11 Jalal 107 BE
(1951) -- some 2 decades later. But they quote only this one
letter of the Guardian. I'm sure that there had been *many* more
communications form Shoghi Effendi during these 19 years. Why
didn't the Iranian NSA quote them? Why did they base their
entire public case on this single early letter of the Guardian?
Based on this evidence, am I to believe that the Guardian's
position actually did not change and that in fact he did not like
deviations from the Dawn-breakers? That's going to be my
position for now, pending further evidence to the contrary.
Now, back to NSA's letter where they objected to information in
ZH-3 which deviated from the Dawn-breakers. What follows is my
summary translation of this open letter: (Note: the Iranian NSA
used the Arabic translation of the Dawn-breakers as their base of
comparison, so all the page numbers to DBA means "Dawn-breakers
Arabic")
1. On page 16 of ZH-3, its stated that among the places where
the Bab stayed is the house of Muhammad-Big Chaparchi. But on
page 187 of DBA it is stated that near Tabriz, Muhammad-Big
handed over the Bab to the Tabriz authorities.
2. On page 17 of ZH-3, its stated that the Bab was bastinadoed
at the hand of Shaykhu'l-Islam at courtyard of his house. But on
page 295 of DBA its stated that this beating took place in his
inner court, namaz-khanih, and a picture of this location is also
provided on on page 254 of DBA and 318 of English original.
3. At the end of page 16 and beginning of page 17 of ZH-3, it is
stated as follows: "And the mutilated body of that martyr,
Sulyman-Khan, was hidden on at a location outside of Tihran near
the shrine of Shah Abdu'l-Azim". But on page 496 of DBA its
written that it was taken to shrine of Imam-zadih Hasan.
4. From line 11 to 16 of page 30 of ZH-3 is in contradiction
with the Dawn-breakers. [ahang: In these lines Fadil is quoting
from the history of Haj Mu'inu's-Saltanih where Haj Mu'in, based
on the observation of those present states, that at the second
firing on the Bab, on His day of martyrdom, again the ropes were
torn and both the mutilated body of the Bab and still barely
alive body of Anis fell to the ground and that Anis crawled over
to the Bab and in his last breath uttered: "Are you well please
with me, my Master?"]
5. On beginning of page 63 of ZH-3, Mulla Mihdi Khu'y is
referred to as a Letter of the Living, whereas he is not counted
as such.
6. On page 69 of ZH-3, towards the end of page, it is written:
"On the question of condition of prison, the situation of Mah-Ku,
and the story of Ali-Khan was discussed in the previous volume
[ZH-2]. It was at the prison of Mah-Ku where the call of
Qa'imiyyat was raised and a new shariyyat commenced through
revelation of the Persian and Arabic Bayans." However, in the
Dawn-breakers it is written that when they brought the Bab to
Tabriz for His trial, outside of the city gate, He first
announced His Qa'immiyyat to Azim and then later at the trail
repeated this Call.
7. Towards the end of page 75 of ZH-3 it is written that
Nawruz-Ali carried the Tablet of the Bab addressed Hajji
Sulyman-Khan from Zanjan to him. But in the Dawn-breakers the
carrier of this Tablet is Mulla Iskandar.
8. On page 93 of ZH-3, it was written that the daughter of
Muhammad-Shah was planned for the marriage with the Bab. But in
page 167 of DBA, it is the sister of Muhammad-Shah.
9. On page 98 of ZH-3, is stated that Mirza Muhammad-Ali Nahry
had no child and hence wished for one, where the Bab offered him
some of His food. But in the Dawn-breakers it is stated that
Mirza Ibrahim made such a request of the Bab on behalf of his
brother Mirza Muhammad-Ali, and that the latter was not even at
the gathering.
10. On page 104, line 7 and 8, of ZH-3, as the text also notes,
there is a deviation between the number of reported martyrs of
Isfahan.
11. On page 109, line 10, of ZH-3, the length of the stay of the
friends at Badasht is recorded as 10 days, whereas in the
Dawn-breakers its 22 days.
Ahang again: I'm getting very depressed with this translation
and I don't want to continue. The NSA letter has a total of 16
pages where they outline 37 such deviations, of which the first
11 are listed above and the remaining 26 are very similar. It
concludes with a short letter by Fadil in which he states his
consent and askes the readers of ZH-3 to make these 37
"corrections". In the words of a friend, reading Fadil's
retraction, makes one ashamed to be a Baha'i.
I'm going to leave it to your judgment whether these "deviations"
are worthy of ruining the reputation of Fadil-i Mazandarani and
burying the Zuhuru'l-Haqq project.
ahang.
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 11:19:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Evolution & SAQ
I have Keven Brown's permission to post a comment he recently made about
`Abdu'l-Baha's statement that the human "species" always existed.
Keven and I agree that by "species" he did not intend the modern
biological concept. Rather, he meant the sublunar reflected `species'
(naw`) governed by the Platonic Form or Idea of humanity.
I have suggested before that the Master believed that the Platonic Form or
Idea of humanity is reflected in whatever actually-existing earthly species
has attained the most complex neurological development at any one time.
Its specific biological form is irrelevant. Clearly, all this is a sort
of Neoplatonic theology, a means of making Jabarut-level, right-brain
sense of evolution; it is not Nasut-level, left-brain science.
(Keven Brown is, incidentally, a Baha'i Ph.D. student in Near Eastern
Languages and Cultures at UCLA, working with Amin Banani and Hossein Ziai
on Islamic philosophy.)
Of course, all this is only put forward tentatively and awaits the
imprimatur of our foremost living Baha'i philosopher and Suhrawardi expert,
John Walbridge.
On Sat, 16 Dec 1995 Keven19@aol.com wrote:
I feel relatively
> sure that 'Abdu'l-Baha does not mean "species" in this purely nominal sense,
> and is applying it in a special way to the same thing that Suhrawardi called
> rabb-i naw' and rabb-i sanam, and which he and his commentators understood as
> the Platonic Form. Since these are eternal, in a certain sense their
> reflections or shadows also have to be eternal, i. e. the individual members
> of species are generated wherever and whenever capacity exists to receive the
> form. Hence, man on the planet earth at a certain point in time appeared and
> developed under the influence of his species lord because the capacity was
> there in matter or in the relationships existing between beings, but this
> does not mean that man did not exist previously on other planets where
> capacity had already been developed to receive the influence of the species
> lord. This is where the Baha'i conception goes beyond Darwinism in
> recognizing a preexisting supernatural cause for all the species on earth.
> The evolution of creatures may be governed in part by random forces, but more
> essentially it is directed by the Mind of God and is a direct effect of His
> Will. There are many places where 'Abdu'l-Baha argues against the formation
> of beings by any other means except by God's will, and the species lords can
> be understood as being inherent in the Primal Will. This is why they cannot
> be taken as logical universals in the usual sense. They only resemble
> universals because they have a common influence over the species' individuals
> under their care but other than this they are completely different from
> logical universals because they have a causal priority to particulars.
>
>
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: 90s pub stats by language
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 11:29:11 EST
Cc: theos-l@vnet.net
Continuing my research into WorldCat titles for various
religious movements of the 19th century.
One can search by any of a number of languages. A search for
book titles published in the 1990s about six religions in six
languages revealed the following:
English Spanish German French Russian Japanese
Mormon 1421 12 0 4 1 1
Adventist 925 32 8 3 1 1
Spiritualist 428 42 6 29 12 17
C. Science 239 3 3 2 1 1
Baha'i 203 7 1 1 0 0
Theosophy 118 20 9 4 32 0
For Theosophists, this is an encouraging picture. In German
and Russian, there are more new books on Theosophy than any
other of the 6 traditions. In Spanish, French and English,
Theosophy's publishing presence is comparable to those of
groups dozens of times larger.
For Baha'is, it would appear that English-language works are
a disproportionately *high* percentage compared to other
groups, or to Baha'i membership statistics. Raising questions
about database coverage.
Another search looked for new titles in the 1990s on the world
religions in all languages. The totals: Christianity 45034,
Judaism 15649, Islam 10745, Buddhism, 7432, Hinduism 3050,
Sikhism 359, Baha'i 255. Even allowing for some distortion
caused by a North American databse, this shows Judaism,
Christianity and Buddhism to be producing far more literary
works in relation to their memberships than is found in the
cases of Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, and Baha'i. BTW a listing of the
titles under Islam shows them overwhelmingly in Arabic and
other non-European languages, indicating OCLC's coverage.
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: 7 Returns of Christ
To: theos-l@vnet.net
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 12:26:59 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Having wandered into the subject of comparative publishing
output for different 19th century religious movements, I found
much more information than I went looking for. The immediate
reason for searching WorldCat was to compare Baha'i publishing
to that of comparable traditions. But in coming up with five
other examples (and contemplating a sixth) there is one
surprising implication: the theme of Christ's return runs
through all of them.
The Mormons, most successful of 19th century religions, claim
to have the restored gospel and the restored early Church.
Their prophecies include a fairly imminent return of Christ.
The Adventists, 2nd most numerous, have based their entire
movement on anticipation of the return. Baha'i teaching in
Western countries tends to center on Baha'u'llah's claim to be
the returned Christ. Christian Science sees its founder as
complementing the original gospel with new information about
Christ's message; her own spiritual status is ambiguous.
Spiritualism defines Jesus as a great medium, and has produced
a large body of "channeled" material about him. Theosophy
emphasizes the law of cycles, and various factions anticipate
(or have anticipated) cyclical teachers who in some sense are
seen as returns of Christ-- most notably Krishnamurti, who
rejected the role. Theosophical offshoots like Anthroposophy,
the Temple of the People and the Lucis Trust are even more
emphatic about the present being a time for Christ to return;
yet the return is often defined as a spiritual rather than
material event. Radhasoami, another movement from the 19th
century, teaches that its spiritual practices are the same
techniques implicit in the teachings of Jesus, and can give
direct access to him. The work of Edgar Cayce recapitulates
themes from all seven of these traditions.
What is most interesting from the above facts, in light of
publishing statistics, is that contemporary vitality in
spiritual movements seems so connected to visions of Christ's
return, conceived in a great variety of manners. Regardless of
the dubious accuracy of most claims made on behalf of this
event, it is revealing about our time in history that this
theme is so prevalent. If we define the Christ as an archetype
of the collective unconscious, it seems fair to say that He/It
*has* returned *through* all the movements mentioned above.
Returned in many new forms, and with conflicting messages.
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:39:03 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Don Peden
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Conscience
On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, Bev/Don Peden wrote:
> When it comes to passive resistance, (which is really what we are
> discussing with reference to an individual's inability to follow a directive
> which they feel is contrary to moral conscience), it is very hard to have a
> catagorical answer...all cases are different...and one walks on very tricky
> ground, such as the issue of Germany. We are also distinguishing between
> moral obligation of obedience to Baha'u'llah's directive to obey just
> governments, and the obligation to be obedient to the House of Justice. Is
> the House of Justice a just government, or is it something else? A key word
> which, perhaps, bears some exploration is "just". It seems that you have
> had some dialogue on this issue with the world centre, and I would be very
> interested in hearing what the Universal House of Justice responded. I
> don't know if this is old territory on Talisman or not, and if it is,
> perhaps a private posting would be appropriate to continue on.
I can look up the letters I've sent and received on the subject; I'll try
to do so over the Christmas weekend.
There does not seem to me to be a dichotomy between what Baha'u'llah said
and what the House said. There are two principles enunciated by
Baha'u'llah: Obedience to government and not killing. Both of these have
been carried forward by the Guardian and by the House. The Guardian
stated that if available, Baha'is should seek non-combatant service. Dave
can clarify for me, but my understanding is as follows. Non combatant, in
general, refers to service which is by nature not violent: Cook, medic,
quartermaster, etc. However, there is another aspect to this. At
present, there are, in military parlance, no noncombatants in the US
military service. Whatever job a particular soldier has, he or she is
subject to an order to change duties without notice, and take up arms.
However, during the days of the Guardian in World War II, and during the
Vietnam War, there was a category for religious conscientious cooperators,
and I think there was an agreement that these people would not be subject
to an order to take up arms.
So (again, from the armchair; it's a whole other reality when you are in
an ambush, and your life and the lives of your friends are very much at
risk of a horrible death) a Baha'i medic who was, during the Vietnam War,
ordered to take up arms, might or might not be receiving a *lawful* order.
And American military law requires U.S. soldiers to obey every lawful
order. That's the way the law is written. Not having been in the
military I freely admit I might have the whole thing wrong.
The main point I am making is that the dichotomy between taking up arms in
an ambush situation in furtherance of the Baha'i principle of obedience to
government, versus refusing to do so in furtherance of the Baha'i
principle of not committing violence against a fellow human being, is not
a Baha'u'llah-House of Justice dichotomy, but a conflict between two
principles revealed by Baha'u'llah, and enunciated by the Guardian and by
the House after Him.
My recollection from the story I read by David, is that he did not take up
arms, and the situation worked out. He followed his conscience and his
standing on principle as he honestly understood it in that situation,
carried him and his friends through.
Brent
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:42:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Jonah Winters
Cc: Member1700@aol.com, talisman
Subject: Re: Review / Provisional Translations
Jonah: Stephen Lambden's *Baha'i Studies Bulletin* is published under
the auspices of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the
United Kingdom. As with many other Baha'i journals (e.g. World Order and
the Journal of Baha'i Studies), refereeing the articles has been turned
over to the editor and this in-house peer-review procedure is counted as
fulfilling Review. The provisional translations that have appeared in
*Baha'i Studies Bulletin* were not vetted by the Research Department in
Haifa. On the other hand, the *Baha'i Studies Bulletin* is received in
Haifa (I've heard the copies get snapped up immediately), and it is
perfectly well known to the House and the Research Department that these
provisional translations have been published there, and Mr. Lambden has
never been instructed to desist.
As for e-mail, the letter of the Universal House of Justice permitting
electronic-mail discussion groups among the Baha'is, posted by Saman last
spring, categorizes such groups as "private" discussions, not public
"publications", and therefore does not require Review of what goes on
here. Again, the House and the Research Department are perfectly well
aware that provisional translations have been posted here, and they have
not seen fit to ask anyone to desist. It is not the place of anyone else
to tell another Baha'i what to do.
A provisionally translated paragraph was published, by Keven Brown, in the
Journal of Baha'i Studies, and when Rob queried the House on it he was
told that it was all right because they trusted Mr. Brown's translating
abilities (or words to that effect).
Circulating provisional translations is absolutely essential
to the advance of Baha'i scholarship. Only in this way can scholars get
feedback on their translations from peers. I had excellent comments from
Dr. Franklin Lewis of the University of Chicago on my translation of
Baha'u'llah's "Commentary on the Surah of the Sun" after it appeared in
*Baha'i Studies Bulletin*. It would have been impossible for me to send
the translation out privately to 150 persons in hopes of getting this one
response.
Thanks to Michael Eissinger for posting the letters from the Research
Department about provisional translation.
My reply is that, however, these guidelines do in fact make conventional
academic scholarship on the Baha'i Faith difficult or impossible, and
impede the growth of Baha'i studies as a field. John Walbridge has
already powerfully stated some of the reasons for this. There are also
philosophical problems. There simply is not only one right way to
translate something, nor can there be an all-purpose translation.
Philosophers and historians must be free to translate contextually in
order to make their arguments. There should be one Some Answered
Questions translation for the lay community, and another for the use of
professional philosophers and theologians. And, of course, eventually
there will be a multiplicity of translations of Baha'i texts, just as
there are of the Bible and the Qur'an.
Another problem is that the Research Department sometimes itself gets
things wrong. When Mr. Faizi's translation of *Stories from the Delight
of Hearts* was reviewed in Haifa, he had accurately translated Mirza
Haydar `Ali's encounter with the ahl-i tariqat as an encounter with
Sufis. The Research department objected to this rendering and insisted
it be replaced with "people of religion" or some such pablum. Of course,
this was before Dr. Vahid Rafati was hired (he has the same degree as I
do, in Islamic Studies from the University of California). But one
person cannot do everything--more especially since the Research
Department has very little time indeed to do things like check
translations, mainly spending their time looking up references for the
practical needs of the House.
The American Baha'i community now actually has far more expertise and
talent in this area than does Haifa, with Professor Amin Banani, UCLA,
Professor Heshmet Moayyad, U of Chicago, Dr. Frank Lewis, U of Chicago,
Professor Sholeh Quinn, U of Ohio, Professor Todd Lawon, McGill, Professor
John Walbridge, Indiana University, and a number of others; it is perhaps
for this reason that the House can now envisage decentralizing some of
these processes. I can only think of three persons in Haifa whose
suggestions for how better to render a verse I would seek out--Vahid
Rafati, Mark Hellaby and Hushmand Fatheazam. But in no case would I feel
bound but such a suggestion, especially if the issue were historical,
since I've spent years reading 19th-century Arabic newspapers, e.g. I'd
be equally interested in what Professor Banani, Moayyad, Lewis and
Walbridge, e.g., had to say. There is no justification from expertise in
the current procedure, which makes it unwieldy and irrational.
Those lay Baha'is who are so eager to tell professional Baha'i historians
and philosophers how they should do things would be well advised to listen
to us when we say that their suggestions are impractical and have a
deleterious effect upon Baha'i scholarship (and thence upon a number of
other important areas--publication of journal articles, incorporation of
accurate accounts into reference works, public knowledge of the Faith,
and teaching persons of capacity).
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:39:39 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Baha'i Studies Bulletin ! at Bosch
To: talisman@indiana.edu
The Baha'i Studies Bulletin which is published in the UK is available
at the Bosch Book Shop . We have several issues . I mention this
because of a posting that Juan did to Jonah Winters .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 13:23:54 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Fadil and Babism
To: talisman@indiana.edu
With regard to the suppression of Zuhur al-Haqq and the public disgrace
of Fadil, there is an ideological side that Ahang did not touch on. It has
to do with changing attitudes to the Bab and the Babis.
The nuances of Baha'i attitudes towards the Babi and the Babi religion have
changed over time. Three interpretations are relevant here:
1) Sympathy with Babism as a revolutionary Shiite movement continuous
with esoteric and sectarian Shiism.
2) Distancing of the Baha'i Faith from Babism on the grounds that
the Baha'i Faith is a distinct religious movement.
3) Retroactive assimilation of the Babi religion to Baha'i standards.
The fact is that in many ways the Babis *were* different from Baha'is.
They were deeply involved in a sort of cabbalistic eschatology that goes far
back into the esoteric and charismatic roots of Shiism. They did not share
the Baha'i rejection of violence. They were, on the whole, a thoroughly
Shiite enterprise.
Baha'u'llah, who was trying to preserve the community, stressed the
distinctiveness of the Baha'i religion. This is most easily seen in various
statements of 'Abdu'l-Baha where he stresses, for example, that violence of
the sort practiced by the Babis was contrary to the Baha'i religion. This is
alternative (2).
Alternative (3) stresses the commonality of the Babi and Baha'i religions
and minimizes those aspects of the Babis that differed fundamentally from
the Baha'i Faith. The two great champions of this approach are Shoghi
Effendi's Nabil and the Guardian himself. At least in the form we have it,
Nabil's history is, among many other things, an attempt to justify Babi
history as being in conformity with Baha'i standards. Thus, in the study I
did of his treatment of the battle of Zanjan, he downplays, reinterprets, or
omits anything that portrays the Babis as aggressive. Such an approach is
very characteristic of the Guardian who translated Nabil and who carefully
refers to the various battles as "upheavals," rather than "Babi revolts," in
*God Passes By*. Such a position served to strengthen the quite valid
Baha'i claim to be apolitical and law-abiding.
Probably as a result of 'Abdu'l-Baha's distancing of the Faith from the
Babis, Babi studies were generally out of fashion with Iranian Baha'i
scholars in the period between the death of 'Abdu'l-Baha and the Islamic
Revolution. Virtually none of the Bab's works were published by the
Iranian Baha'is, and not very much was written about the Bab. The current
revival of interest in Babi studies arose in the West.
The exception was Fadil. Apart from the three volumes of Zuhuru'l-Haqq
dealing with the Shaykhis and Babis, he is far more likely than his
contemporary Ishraq-Khavari to cite Babi parallels as explanations for
Baha'i texts and teachings. He is also far more likely to cite Islamic
parallels. Fadil was thus stressing the continuity of the Baha'i Faith with
Babism and Islam and stressing the Shiite and Babi aspects of the Baha'i
Faith at a time when the general policy was to stress the distinctiveness,
rationality, and modernity of the Baha'i Faith. Moreover, his deep and
detailed knowledge of Babi thought and history tended to undermine the
two rhetorical moves that would distance the Baha'i Faith from the esoteric
and sectarian aspects of the Babis.
In contrast, all three of those responsible for Fadil's fall and the suppression
of Zuhur al-Haqq were committed to other interpretations of the Faith.
Furutan was a Russian-trained educationist deeply involved in the
modernization of Iranian education and with little sympathy for the esoteric
Shiite tradition that Fadil recognized in the Babi and Baha'i Faiths. Ishraq-
Khavari also was exclusively concerned with Baha'i topics to the exclusion
of Babi material. He also translated of Shoghi Effendi's translation of
Nabil into Persian (from an Arabic translation of the English!). Shoghi
Effendi was Western-educated and his views are well known.
The suppression of Fadil's work can thus be seen as an attempt to preserve
the integrity of a particular reinterpretation of Baha'i history--one that
portrayed the Babis as (1) marginal to current Baha'i concerns and (2)
proto-Baha'is--against an intepretation of Babi and Baha'i history that (1)
stressed the distinctive features of the Babis and (2) implicitly stressed the
continuity of Islam, Babism, and the Baha'i Faith.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:30:10 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: Sema, the Alim, etc.
Dear friends,
Filled to overflowing on this Monday morning. Saturday evening I
participated (as a musician) yet another time in the Sema, the traditional
whirling ceremony of the Mevlevi Dervishes (Threshold Society/Threshold
Books). This ceremony is so profoundly powerful and beautiful and always
opens the hearts of even those spectators that don't understand exactly what
it is they're seeing and hearing. The ceremony itself is symbolic of the
death of our small self and resurrection to the Beloved. The music is
classical Turkish Sufi music, composed specifically for Sema. Three drums,
a ney (reed flute), voice, bowed tanbour, and tanbour all played by a Turk,
a Syrian-Russian, a Greek, a Kuwaiti, and three white folks (Boston's
Eurasian Ensemble and guests). A Persian artist from Manhattan came to
chant the opening lines of the Mathnawi and a surah of the Qur'an. The
music evokes such longing as slowly the semazens (dervishes) begin to whirl,
unfolding like flowers in long white flowing skirts and tall felt hats
(sikkes), their right hands turned toward heaven to receive baraka
(blessings) and their left hand turned toward the earth to bestow the
blessing on all creation. It filled me with such joy to be able to share in
this with people of many tariqats and diverse cultures. Over two hundred
people from little ol' Brattleboro, VT and beyond attended the event and
over one hundred stayed to join in the Mevlevi dhikr (reciting Names of God
with drumming and movement). The traditional Sema is performed annually in
Konya, Turkey, Cairo, Egypt, and Brattleboro, Vermont. I'll be bringing
some music of this tradition, Insha'llah, to the Mysticism Conference at
Bosch in February. So, SIGN UP NOW.
Juan: The ALIM is truly a wonderful tool, great fun, and, yes, even as
addictive as Talisman. So, let the buyer beware.
Warmest Regards,
LuAnne
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- NSA's objections
To: rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com (Ahang Rabbani)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 14:10:56 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
FROM NSA OBJECTIONS TO SOURCE CRITICISM
Perhaps one problem in the writing of Baha'i history is that the
sources are not allowed to speak for themselves, and to be judged on
their own merits, on a case-by-case basis.
Fadil worked from his sources, as did Nabil, as did the beloved
Guardian. The integrity of none of these three historians should have ever
been questioned -- only the integrity of the primary sources themselves.
DOES THE GUARDIAN'S DIRECTIVE PROHIBIT USE OF ZH VOLS. 4 & 5?
Obviously overcome by the injustice done to Fadil, Ahang's pearls
were left unstrung. I still wish to hear Ahang's response to my
tongue-in-cheek comments on Gospel harmonization.
Christianity's first great scholar -- Origen -- noted that there
was an irreconcilable disharmony been the Gospel of John and the
Synoptics. My question is this: How far does the Guardian's requirement
for harmonization really go?
For the sake of argument, let us say that publication of ZH is
constrained by the *Dawnbreakers*. But the Dawnbreakers only takes us so
far. There is nothing against which ZH vols. 4 & 5 MUST be measured,
except possibly for *God Passes By*.
If there is a disagreement as to sources, it is not arguing against
the integrity or the conferred infallibility of the Guardian when sources
are critically and impartially examined. Stephen Lambden (and, following
him, Michael Sours) has argued that there are hagiographical tendencies in
Nabil in the creation of a Baha'i *myth* that gilds its received history.
And even the House has written a letter suggesting that the
Guardian's historical accuracy was constrained by his sources. So, here
again, we need to critically evaluate the sources, not the historians.
RECLAIMING FADIL'S INTEGRITY:
A PROPOSAL TO TRANSLATE AN ABRIDGEMENT OF ZH VOLS 4 & 5
*Dawnbreakers* takes us only to the dawn of Baha'u'llah's
ministry. The Arabic original of the second half of Nabil's history
remains unpublished. I submit that this is because there are certain
problems with Nabil's treatment of Baha'u'llah's ministry. For one thing,
I hear there are a number of miracles Nabil ascribes to Baha'u'llah.
Therefore, unless there is a stated administrative requirement
that harmonization is required for writing Baha'i history, such that
*God Passes By* and Balyuzi's *Baha'u'llah, the King of Glory* are
sacrosanct and cannot be questioned, I submit that Fadil's later work
ought to be published (vols. 4 & 5), beginning with an abridged
translation of vols. 4 & 5.
In this way, I believe a partial vindication of Fadil is possible
and highly desirable. Besides which, we might learn something new about
Baha'u'llah. Note that I am not touching the ethical issues here. As
Leonard Cohen wrote in one of his songs: *I don't like what happened to my
sister.* The same goes for Fadil. So let's at least begin to make use of
that part of his work that has not (yet) been impeached. Your thoughts,
Ahang, Juan, John, et al?
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 14:09:09 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: birds warbling
To: talisman@indiana.edu
We have Robert singing out on a limb by himself and Derek carrying on like a
crazed hoopoe bird. I will check with my love bird and see if either or both
could share her cage with her.
Robert, the entire foundation of the Baha'i Faith is not going to fall if the
Baha'is follow the logic of Darwin's theory. The Baha'i Faith is not built on
a brief statement by Abdu'l Baha during a talk on the nature of man. If you
are going to limit yourself in this way, what other restrictions are you going
to put on yourself? Is the goal of the Baha'i Faith to see the world as
narrowly as possible? And if we cannot apply the teaching about the harmony of
science and religion to evolutionary theory, then, pray tell, where can we
apply it?
I believe that weeks ago Burl noted that I had placed an order with Derek for
Burl'l book. It is now December 18 and the book still has not arrived. I know
that it is a very long walk for Derek from Bosch to the post office (no doubt
the walk does him a world of good), but I am now wondering if he does not make
enough trips to the post office. If Derek had more errands of this nature to
run, he might not have as much time to torment certain victimized individuals
on Talisman. I suggest that, as a Talisman project, we think of errands to
occupy Derek's excessive amount of free time. In the meantime, he might send
the music to "Why are we Waiting?" or whatever that little ditty is. I realize
now that I was humming the wrong tune. My tap dance went to the tune of Why
Was I Born Too Late. However, now I realize that I made a grievous error.
Please send the music Derek, but not "Chapter 2." Linda
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 14:21:23 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: religious images
To: talisman@indiana.edu
John's posting on Fadil and his writings on the Babis made great sense to me.
There is a continual struggle in the religions with which I am familiar for
control of the image that the religion wishes to project.
I have some difficulty, though not nearly to the extent that John, Juan, Todd,
and others have, in doing anthropoligical work among the Shi'a because the more
learned Shi'a don't want the world to think that the extreme "irrational"
aspects of Shi'ism are really present in the world today. They prefer to
present an image of Islam (and Shi'ism) as being very legalistic, rational, and
in harmony with modern life. For me to explore other aspects of the religion
makes them a tad nervous. However, they don't try to stop me. They just
expresss exasperation that I persist in speaking to the "wrong" people.
My feeling is that the Baha'i Faith won't really gain "respectability" until we
are allowed to explore all aspects of the Babi and Baha'i religions and present
them as openly as we would any other body of material. I have watched scholars
become Muslims even though they are exploring this religion using "cold"
Western scientific methodology in their studies. This type of writing is not
going to harm the Faith. It will deepen and broaden it. Right now, it is
stuck in a groove and, alas, is appearing to be a bit naive. I hope that
Talisman's success is to open the doors for all sorts of new understandings.
Linda
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:59:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: Christopher Buck
Cc: Ahang Rabbani , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Zuhur'l-Haqq and Encyclopedia
> Ahang writes:
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> This makes Shoghi Effendi all upset with Zuhuru'l-Haqq as he
> didn't like anything that deviated by a dot from the Dawnbreakers.
> So on 15 September 1932, he writes (my inadequate translation):
>
> "Immediately organize a special committee to investigate,
> reorganize and bring into conformity Jinab-i Fadil's history
> with that of Nabil's history [the Dawnbreakers]. Of this
> task and grave responsibility, no delay is permitted, and
> utmost effort must be diligently exerted."
I would very much like to more about the situation that gave rise to this
letter. There are so many variant versions of the story about the demise
of this work, that it is more than a little difficult to sort out what
the purpose of this was. One person, who has seen unpublished
correspondence from Shoghi Effendi and others relating to this event, has
assrted to me that the Guardian was concerned that Fadil had collected
copies of tablets and historical materials without making any efforts to
authenticate them and without gathering sufficient information about
their provenance. In other words, he did not want such materials
published without some critical analysis of their origins. Using the
Dawn Breakers as a standard for authentification of historical materials,
while hardly scholarly or scientific, may have been seen as a way of
keeping the project alive rather than suppressing it.
Such a possibility seems to be more consistent with the other actions of
Shoghi Effendi. For example, while he obviously held Nabil's Narrative
in high esteem and used it heavily in his own writings, it was at his
instructions that memoirs of companions of Baha'u'llah be collected,
Now, it is inconceivable that these memoirs would be in agreement with
Nabil's Narrative on every point, yet in at least one instance (the
memoirs of Ashchi, Baha'u'llah's cook), he commissioned an English
translation, presumeably to make it available to Western Baha'is.
He also, as is well-known, directed that histories and memoirs be written
about Baha'i communities around the world. Consequently, the obvious
reading of the letter translated by Ahang, seems out-of-character, unless
we are missing a critical part of the story.
Richard
=END=
Date: 18 Dec 95 15:25:27 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Talisman Mysticism Conference Call
Dear Talismanians,
A warm Talis-welcome to Anton, Paul, Steve, Peter and to Bill Collins.
I would appeal to other lurkers to introduce themselves, too.
The time draws nigh for the long-awaited Talisman Mysticism Conference
(Bosch Baha'i School, February 23-25, 1996 -- Register Now! or fall
hopeless into error and loss), and those who have chosen to help out
with its structure and form will convene this week on a conference
call.
We will speak with each other on Thursday the 21st, and I'll take
suggestions now as to the time of day most convenient for most
conveners. Bosch program wiz and Hobbesian ABM Marsha Gilpatrick will
join us in our deliberations.
Nima, Luanne, Juan, Steve, Terry, and all others on the agenda for the
conference -- you might want to think a bit in advance as to how the
agenda might aspire to or flee from structure, and what you'd recommend.
Anyone else who plans to attend the conference would be most welcome on
the call -- Irfan Republic at work, right before our very eyes.
Please call me at 1-800-950-2647, extension 720 during business hours PST,
or at home -- 310-326-8900 -- at all other odd hours of the day and night
if you wish to be included on the call. E-mail would work, too.
Love,
David
p.s. A rumour persists that the Carmels will appear in concert there --
any mystical truth to that one?
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 14:11:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Teaching Christians
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Robert,
Robert Johnson: "Any intellectual position that is not moderate is untrue."
Dann May: Including this one?
RJ: The Darwinistic viewpoint expresses itself in anti-religious forms.
DM:It doesn t necessarily have to, see process philosophy.
RJ: Dann, Robert S and Linda (et al) express their positions on
evolution in extreme ways. That is: if yer not with Darwin yer a
fundamentalist and think the world was made in seven days.
DM: I think you have misread me.
I didn't state my extreme allegiance in Darwinism, almost no philosopher or
scientist does. Modern evolutionary theory has moved considerably past
Darwin's original theory. I suggested that the universe is in process -- is
dynamic, evolving, and ever-changing -- and also suggested that process
philosophy and theology might come to our aid in understanding
Abdu'l-Baha's remarks on evolution. Henri Bergson (1859-1941), a French
philosopher, was writing on the subject at about the same time as
Abdu'l-Baha, and Jack McLean tells me that they even met.
Bergson was one of the most popular and often read philosophers of his day.
He inspired such thinkers as Alfred Whitehead, Gabriel Marcel, Jacques
Maritain, and won acclaim from the American philosophers John Dewey and
William James, as well as considerable praise from Carl Jung. The Nobel
laureate in chemistry Ilya Prigogine credits Bergson as a great influence
on his own work in oscillating chemical reactions (see _Order out of Chaos:
Man s New Dialogue with Nature_, 1984).
Bergson was a critic of two extremes in the then current evolutionary
debate: one being neo-Darwinism, especially mechanistic explanations of
evolution, the other, neo-Lamarkian theories. In other words, he criticized
both mechanistic and teleological theories, and offered what he thought was
a more tenable alternative. Bergson argues in _Creative Evolution_ (1911),
that matter embodies or contains within in itself what he calls _elan
vital_, "the vital impetus" or "principle," "the life force" or life
potentiality that "drives" or gives rise to the very emergence of life on
this planet. This vital principle also impels the evolutionary process to
unfold all of its potentiality in the rich and varied diversity of living
creatures we now see around us. Bergson goes on to argue that consciousness
was always a potentiality within the elan vital and this is what drove the
evolutionary process to eventually bring forth human beings. This might be
one way to interpret Abdu'l-Baha's remarks about "man always being man." In
other words, if consciousness is one of our distinguishing features (what
makes us human), then we could say that we were always potentially present
in the universe, like the genetic encoding of the mature oak tree in the
seed, to use Aristotle's example. The oak tree, like human beings, must
pass through many stages before becoming the mature acorn bearing tree --
but in some profound sense, the mature tree is always "present" in the seed
and in the process, just as human beings could be seen to be always
"present" in the evolutionary process, and in fact being part of the
impetus for the process.
Bergson specialist Pete Gunter (one of my professors at the University of
North Texas) writes: "The evolutionary impetus, as Bergson describes it,
contains within itself an infinity of potentialities, but in a state of
mutual interpenetration. Through its interaction with matter, however, this
impetus has divided in three main directions: the plants, which exist in
vegetative stupor; the arthropods (insects, spiders, crabs, etc.) whose
mode of life is instinctive; and the vertebrates (whose _modus vivendi_ is
"intelligence") culminating in the higher primates and man ("Introduction
to the UPA Edition" of _Creative Evolution_, pp. xxxiii-iv).
While Bergson is usually labeled as an "emergent naturalist," his ideas can
be modified to include a more theistic or religious approach. For example,
the elan vital could be seen as the life force (or spirit) that "God"
places in the very core of all matter -- at the heart of every atom or
subatomic particle, or alternatively, it is the process by which God
"begins" the creative act.
I await comment, as I feel such ideas have some potential for dealing with
the difficult area of `Abdu l-Baha s comments on evolution.
PS. A personal note. One reason I never became a Christian was its
anti-scientific stand, especially when it came to evolution. The Baha i
Faith attracted my attention because Baha is claimed to uphold the theory
of evolution as well as the principle of the harmony of science and
religion. My training in paleontology and paleoecology (BS and MS degrees
from the University of Washington and six years of exploration geology with
the Standard Oil Company), however, led me to question the commonly held
explanations of Abdu l-Baha s discussion of evolution. Such explanations as
well as simplistic readings of Abdu l-Baha simply don t fit very well with
modern evolutionary theory, nor with the contributions made in the area of
the philosophy of science.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * All human beings have an innate urge to know. Aristotle
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:52:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: "K. Paul Johnson"
Cc: theos-l@vnet.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: 8? (Re: 7 Returns of Christ)
Dear Paul--
You forgot to mention the late sage of Ahmednagar, Meher Baba. As far as
I'm aware he claimed to be the latest avataric manifestation of all the
prophets. He especially emphasized the christic aspect to his mission. See
his "God Speaks," for instance.
Regards,
Nima
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
"In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:01:53 -0800 (PST)
From: SAFA SADEGHPOUR
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
To: Robert Johnston
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
On Mon, 18 Dec 1995, Robert Johnston wrote:
> Dear Safa,
>
> >
> >It might be better to present specific arguments against a specific positions
> >instead of proclaiming general conditions of truth.
>
>
> One thing that amazes me is the logical inconsistencies of empiricistic
> personages. In your above sentence you do what you ask me not to do. Are
> you able to see this? If not we can spent more time examining the matter.
Dearest Robert,
Most appropriate IMO would be not to catagorize people as empiricists
or idealists insomuch that these artificial divisions divide us
in ways in which we are not intrinsicaly divided. No one is a
true empiricist or idealist but everyone has their tendencies.
What it adds up to is an ad hominem attack, which I doubt
was your intention.
We can follow logical hair splittings into saying that the
statement that I made above is paradoxical. But, so, also
we can follow such hair splittings into making pretty much
any statement to become paradoxical. If it's stated, for
instance, that truth can only be a non-extreme then the
following argument may be proposed: Things can only be
false, or true - these being the only two extremes. Therefore,
whatever an statement is it will always be an extreme. In
other words, every statement is either false or true, both
being extremes. Finally, since every statement must be
an extreme, therefore every statement, under the logic
that truth can only arrive from non-extremes, must not
be true . . . which is a contradiction. Therefore, we have
nicely arrived to a reductio ad absurdum of the original
statement.
>
>
> >
> >It is not true that anything that is not moderate is necessarily
> >not true. A perfect example might be that of God's existence: Is
> >God's existence true, or does He half-exist? Existence or non-existence. . .
> >the two extremes are the only options.
>
>
> First of all, what I wrote was : "Any intellectual position that is not
> moderate is untrue." A ref. for this: Baha'i Faith is the religion of the
> middle way (Shoghi Effendi). The Darwinistic viewpoint expresses itself in
Indeed, in many fields it is. But, this is not true when the Faith
takes a strong stand against abuse, prejudice, theft, rape,
homicide, destruction of books, and many other areas. Abuse is never
condoned, nor is the destruction of human life. Then, it cannot
be said that the statement that "the Bahai Faith is middle ground" to
be rigorous and complete.
> anti-religious forms (see letters to Talisman which again seek to devalue
> the station of 'Abdu'l-Baha, etc; and Darwin's own works): fundamentalism
> expresses itself in anti-scientific forms. These are extreme positions.
> To state that God exists is not an immoderate statement. To state that MY
> GOD exists and yours doesn't is immoderate. That that is just was these
> Darwinists and fundamentalists are doing. They are the flip side of each
> other, and not susceptible to rational argumentation.
As mentioned in the previous post, I would suggest demonstrating
how is Darwinian logic is flawed. It's far better than saying
Darwinism is probably not true due to this general thing
and the other. Remember, science is inductive at first,
and deductive at end. Not the other way around. First, we
discover general conditions of truth, then we turn
around and use these conditions to test hypotheses.
>
> God wins the day, brother: moderation is ultimately determined by
> relationship to the Word of God. An intellectual position that departs
> from the Word of God eventually becomes implicated in immoderation.
>
> I not longer expect that what I write will have anymore influence than has
> a snowball in hell. But it seems that, like the sparrow, I am destined to
> sit on the wire and sing, for no apparently good reason...
Despair not. We all try to sing while our breath allows us. Sooner
or later our rhythms will match, and then our music will
be stronger. Until then, we got to practice and try
to complement our voices, as hard as that may be.
>
> Robert.
>
>
>
the lost singing -albeit not very well- canary,
Safa
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:54:36 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.indiana.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu
Subject: Reuters 12/16-17/95 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 95/12/17
> 1. 14:05 UAE CRITICISES IRAN OVER DISPUTED ISLANDS
> 2. 12:33 IRAN ARRESTS 40 FOR ILLEGAL CURRENCY DEALINGS
> 3. 10:39 IRAN SAYS U.S. CAUSING GULF CRISES TO SELL ARMS
> 4. 08:37 U.S. CAUSING GULF CRISES TO SELL ARMS, IRAN SAYS
> 5. 07:11 IRAN CUTS IMPORTS FROM GULF TO SAVE HARD CURRENCY
>Transmission date: 95/12/16
> 6. 01:55 BURST HEROIN CAPSULE KILLS NIGERIAN NATIONAL
>
>=START= XMT: 14:05 Sun Dec 17 EXP: 14:00 Wed Dec 20
>
>
> UAE criticises Iran over disputed islands
> ABU DHABI, Dec 17 (Reuter) - The United Arab Emirates on Sunday criticised
>what it termed Iranian war threats in their dispute over three strategic Gulf
>islands.
> ``When we raise the voice of peace, Iran raises the voice of war and
>threats,'' UAE Foreign Minister Rashid Abdullah al-Nuaimi said in remarks
>carried by the official WAM news agency.
> He stressed that the UAE favoured a peaceful solution to the dispute with
>non-Arab Iran over the islands of Greater Tumb, Lesser Tumb and Abu Musa. The
>UAE and its Gulf Arab allies term Iran's presence on the islands as occupation.
> ``Every time the UAE calls for a peaceful solution, Iran responds with
>threats and is disturbed'' with such calls. ``It responded by saying it fought
>eight years (against Iraq) and can fight for 80 years'' over the islands, the
>minister said.
> He was referring to remarks earlier this month by the Iranian deputy navy
>commander, Admiral Abbas Mohtaj.
> The dispute flared when Tehran tightened security measures in 1992 on Abu
>Musa, an island with several thousand inhabitants near oil shipping lanes at
>the mouth of the Gulf, which the two sides had jointly run under a 1971
>agreement.
> The UAE responded by reasserting its claim to the Tumbs.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 12:33 Sun Dec 17 EXP: 12:00 Wed Dec 20
>
>
> Iran arrests 40 for illegal currency dealings
> TEHRAN, Dec 17 (Reuter) - Iranian intelligence ministry officers arrested
>40 people for illegal hard currency dealings in Tehran, newspapers said on
>Sunday.
> The suspects arrested over three days, were charged with ``intending to
>disrupt and cause fluctuations in currency markets,'' Ettelaat daily quoted a
>ministry statement as saying.
> In May, free market hard currency dealings were banned and all such
>transactions were ordered to go through state banks. The intelligence ministry
>was empowered to deal with violators.
> An official rate of 3,000 rials to the dollar was introduced for importers.
> Last week, the rial dropped about 10 percent on the illegal market in an
>apparent reaction to tougher sanctions approved on Tuesday against Iran by the
>U.S. Senate's banking committee.
> The rate exceeded 4,000 rials on Wendesday and reached 4,080 on Thursday
>when the crackdown started. The black market rate was little changed on Sunday.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 10:39 Sun Dec 17 EXP: 10:00 Wed Dec 20
>
>
> Iran says U.S. causing Gulf crises to sell arms
> (Adds Khamenei statement, details, pvs NICOSIA)
> TEHRAN, Dec 17 (Reuter) - Iran on Sunday accused the United States of
>creating artificial crises in the Gulf to justify arms sales to the region.
> Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati said that even though the main pretext
>for foreign forces in the region -- Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait -- had been
>removed, foreign fleets were still carrying out ``provocative military
>manoeuvres.''
> Spiritual leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, meanwhile, said the United States
>cannot ``do a damn thing'' against Iran.
> Velayati, opening a two-day international seminar on the Gulf, said Arab
>countries were still spending huge sums on exercises, paying for the dispatch
>of U.S. forces to the region.
> The official Iranian news agency IRNA said he referred to an unprecedented
>rush of foreign forces to the Gulf.
> The United States attributed any crisis, rioting or bombs in Gulf littoral
>states to Iran, it quoted him saying.
> Velayati described an invitation to foreign powers to bring security to the
>Gulf as a ``big blunder.'' He said that in an atmosphere of suspicion and
>concern, triggered by the military presence of aliens and their intimidating
>and divisive policy, regional countries had no option but to get closer to one
>another and build confidence among themselves.
> Iran's deputy foreign minister for Africa and the Middle East, Hussein
>Sheikholeslam, was reported over the weekend as saying for the first time that
>Iran was willing to sign a non-aggression treaty with all Gulf states.
> ``We are ready to sign a non-aggression treaty with all the countries of
>the Gulf to boost security in the region,'' the Qatar daily al-Raya quoted him
>saying in a statement.
> ``The treaty must also stipulate that the countries of the region do not
>support any aggression carried out by one state against another,'' it quoted
>him saying, adding that the presence of foreign troops in the region was a
>threat to security.
> Velayati said the United States was continuing its policy of dual
>containment and economic pressure and sanctions on Iran in an effort to impose
>its own policies on the Gulf.
> Iran was willing to resolve problems and misunderstandings with its
>neighbours, who he urged to put aside old enmities and false and chronic
>disputes and lay down conditions for friendship and cooperation.
> ``The introduction of the new world order in the Persian Gulf region must
>coincide with the exit of foreign forces and the removal of their colonialist
>bases in the region,'' Iranian television quoted him as saying.
> Velayati also pointed to growing Islamic awareness and the assumption of a
>new dynamic concept of transnationalism referred to as a ``single Islamic
>community.''
> IRNA said political experts from Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon,
>Egypt, Jordan, Tunisia, Britain, Germany, the United States, France, China,
>Russia and Japan were to present papers at the seminar.
> Khamenei, speaking to officers during a visit to an air force college,
>said: ``Due to inexperience, rawness and lack of information about humane
>realities, American rulers have always failed against (the) Islamic state.
> ``As America faced defeat in their conspiracy of economic embargo, from now
>on, too, they will not be able to do a damn thing against the mountain of
>patience, faith and dynamic talents of the Iranian Moslem nation.''
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 08:37 Sun Dec 17 EXP: 08:00 Wed Dec 20
>
>
> U.S. causing Gulf crises to sell arms, Iran says
> NICOSIA, Dec 17 (Reuter) - Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati
>accused the United States of creating artificial crises in the Gulf to justify
>arms sales to the region, Iranian television reported on Sunday.
> Even though the main pretext for the presence of foreign forces in the
>region -- Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait -- had been removed, foreign fleets
>were still carrying out ``provocative military manoeuvres,'' Velayati told a
>two-day international seminar on the Gulf.
> Arab countries were also continuing to spend huge sums on these exercises,
>paying for the dispatch of U.S. forces to the region, he said according to
>Iranian television monitored by the BBC.
> The United States was continuing its policy of dual containment and
>maintaining economic pressure and sanctions on Iran in an effort to impose its
>own policies on the Gulf, he said.
> Velayati said Iran was willing to resolve problems and misunderstandings
>with its neighbours, who he urged to put aside old enmities and false disputes
>and lay down conditions for friendship and cooperation.
> ``The introduction of the new world order in the Persian Gulf region must
>coincide with the exit of foreign forces and the removal of their colonialist
>bases in the region,'' he said.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 07:11 Sun Dec 17 EXP: 07:00 Wed Dec 20
>
>
> Iran cuts imports from Gulf to save hard currency
> By Steven Swindells
> DUBAI, Dec 17 (Reuter) - Iran has slashed by nearly a quarter its imports
>of hard-currency goods from its main Gulf trading partner Dubai, latest trade
>statistics from the emirate's customs department showed on Sunday.
> Reduced purchases from the UAE's main port city are signs of Tehran's
>policy of limiting non-essential imports so that it can build foreign currency
>reserves to meet international debt repayments in 1996, bankers in the region
>said.
> Re-exports of goods from Dubai to Iran fell to 2.50 billion dirhams ($681
>million) in the first nine months of 1995, 23 percent down from the same period
>last year, Dubai officials told Reuters.
> Dubai -- trading hub of the United Arab Emirates -- is Iran's main link to
>foreign goods, particularly machinery, mechanical appliances, electrical
>equipment and textiles, according to the Dubai Chamber of Commerce and
>Industry.
> U.S. goods, even though banned under U.S. trade sanctions against Iran,
>often find their way to the Islamic republic through Dubai, which is just
>across the Gulf.
> Evidence of lower re-exports from Dubai agrees with estimates by
>Tehran-based diplomats who say that Iran's imports from its main trading
>partners of Germany, Japan, Britain, Italy and France have fallen by up to half
>this year.
> By limiting its hard-currency imports, Tehran hopes to be able to meet an
>annual debt obligation of between $5 billion and $6 billion, diplomats say.
> The Iranian parliament in September voted to ban imports of soft drinks,
>chocolate and toys as non-essential goods.
> Iran's total financial obligations to foreign countries in the context of
>its second five-year plan are $33 billion, of which $17 billion is rescheduled,
>according to Central Bank governor Mohsen Nourbakhsh.
> Tehran's oil revenue -- Iran is the world's third largest oil exporter
>after Saudi Arabia and Norway -- is expected to be just under $16 billion in
>the next Iranian financial year which begins in March.
> A collapse in the value of the rial against the dollar in May and the
>resulting introduction of strict currency controls has also dented Iran's
>ability to import goods from Dubai, diplomats say.
> Dubai customs statistics show that Iran accounted for 28.6 percent of its
>total re-export market between January and September, down from 30.2 percent in
>the first six months of the year and 41.7 percent in the first six months of
>1994.
> Dubai's total re-export trade volume grew to 8.745 billion dirhams in the
>first nine months of the year, compared with 7.886 billion dirhams in
>January-September 1994, latest figures show.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 01:55 Sat Dec 16 EXP: 01:00 Tue Dec 19
>
>
> Burst heroin capsule kills Nigerian national
> QUETTA, Pakistan, Dec 16 (Reuter) - A Nigerian died in a hotel on the
>Pakistan-Iran border when one of several dozen heroin capsules burst in his
>stomach, police and hospital sources said on Saturday.
> Police said the Nigerian, identified only as Abby-Bwelew, had booked into a
>hotel in Taftan in the southwestern province of Balochistan on Thursday evening
>because the border was shut.
> The next morning his West Indian companion Nash Johnson told the hotel
>management Abby-Bwelwe had died in the night. Johnson was arrested as a murder
>suspect and Abby-Bwelwe's body was sent to Quetta, the provincial capital, for
>an autopsy.
> A hospital doctor said the Nigerian had been carrying 82 capsules of heroin
>in his stomach, one of which had burst, causing his death. Johnson was also
>medically examined but was not found to be carrying drugs. He remained in
>detention.
> Police said Abby-Bwelew had planned to travel overland to Europe via Iran
>and Turkey to avoid airport checks where Nigerians and other Africans are often
>searched for drugs.
> In another development, customs men seized more than three tonnes of
>marijuana concealed in an apple truck at Balily near Quetta on Friday night, a
>customs official said.
> He said the marijuana had been brought from Afghanistan for shipment to
>Europe from Balochistan. The driver and his companions escaped in the dark, the
>official added.
> Smugglers use Pakistan as a route to transport narcotics produced here and
>in neighbouring Afghanistan to markets in Europe, the Gulf and elsewhere.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:31:44 +1300 (NZDT)
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: birds warbling
Dear Linda,
Sparrows chirrup rather than warble. And like William Carlos
Williams' red wheel barrow in the rain (your cue David) EVERYTHING depends
upon our knowing this...
Robert ;-}
=END=
From: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Subject: A Thought on Faith & Reason...
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:52:15 -0600 (CST)
Dear Friends Allah'u'Abha!
I have noticed that as Baha'is we tend to want to find a comfortable/stable
position to which we can "cling", which frequently involves dismissing a view
which seems contradictory to us. I have struggled and continue struggling to
balance Faith and Reason. Sometimes this is very hard and uncomfortable.
Lately, however, I'm beginning to sense that perhaps this "tension" between
the two will propel us to a higher plane of discourse. Rather than
"degenerating" to
one view or the other of those available, perhaps this "tension" I'm referring
to can help to propel us to a novel view; a path which is very difficult (the
road less taken, perhaps (g)! I realize that I'm not explaining myself very
well, but are there others out there who perhaps have the "sense" of what I'm
saying
here?
Warmest Regards to All!
Ken
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: 90s pub stats by language
To: "K. Paul Johnson"
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 16:47:35 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, theos-l@vnet.net
Followup: checked the OCLC database for books in Arabic and
Persian on Baha'i. The totals were 54 and 129 titles,
respectively. Taking these numbers in relation to the
estimated overall number of titles printed on the Faith in
these languages should give a measure of the representativeness
of the database.
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:57:47 +1300 (NZDT)
To: SAFA SADEGHPOUR , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
Dear Safa,
...the Faith
>takes a strong stand against abuse, prejudice, theft, rape,
>homicide, destruction of books, and many other areas. Abuse is never
>condoned, nor is the destruction of human life. Then, it cannot
>be said that the statement that "the Bahai Faith is middle ground" to
>be rigorous and complete.
When I was a child I went with a friend to collect some shoes from the shoe
shop. We went at "morning interval" and arrived back at nearly lunch
time. As I recall the weather was wet and miserable. For going away
without permission and for coming back late anyway, the teacher strapped
our hands with a lump of leather. Our hands, already numb with cold,
became agonizingly painful, and we jumped around, our faces contorted like
images from hell... Now, I hope I learned something from that experience.
If I am to accept from you that Shoghi Effendi was wrong when he said the
Faith was the religion of the middle way, then it seems to me that once
again I am going with Harltey Collett out into the rain to get a pair of
shoes ...
You wrote:
Remember, science is inductive at first,
>and deductive at end. Not the other way around. First, we
>discover general conditions of truth, then we turn
>around and use these conditions to test hypotheses.
If you insist. The standard of truth on all the world of God is the Baha'i
Writings... If the Darwinists can prove that 'Abdu'l-Baha was wrong, I'd
be very interested...
Always your companion in the schoolroom and on the playground,
Robert.
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 17:50:34 -0500
To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz, LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu,
talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: birds warbling
Robert, cues are piling up! As a child I imagined myself one of a group of
scientists eons in the future shooting missiles into the sun to keep it
going.Admittedly this seems unlikely ever. Also I looked forward to monkeys
evolving speech organs and abilities for talk and reason. What then? And why
not? I can't for the life of me understand your evolution, though I like you
very much. It seems we are all so related, the universe being one thing,
that the body is an organ which develops to house (temporarily) the soul. As
such, we would expect that the boundary between human life and non-human life
is, as examined over time, both indefinite and unknowable. Further, for
everything that happens(however "thing" and "happens" be defined) multiple
causes operate simultaneously, and can be viewed through both teleological
and nonteleological frames.This, it seems, can be derived from the revealed
nature of God, fairly simply, as His Names, for instance, the Hidden and the
Seen, require it. Scripture may indeed provide some metaphors of use to
science, but to reject scientific metaphors and accounts of events or classes
of events in toto in favor of deriving explanations from scripture usually
leads to error because it means a rejecting of information, and we should
never reject information, but just as fundamentally, presents a model which,
if successful, would prove believers in possession of the kind of "magical"
power which, in this age of maturity, we should --not-- expect to possess. By
the same reasoning I expect that even in the Golden Age of the Faith there
will be reasonable, even wonderful people who, though exemplary in every way,
will not be Baha'is, even in their heart of hearts. And I mean such people
as I would not want to be in Heaven without! The other day you said something
about people who are not Baha'is lacking something. It made me remember that
in my early Baha'i days I heard quaint talk of people being "veiled from the
Truth." Humanity being one, it seems to me the only difference between people
with faith in Baha'u'llah and others is in the variety of veil covering us.
We all have bits and peices of the truth. Necessarily, some of us possess a
Name that will increasingly prove central to the Spirit guiding us all, but
we go astray in many ways, particularly when we think of truth as something
we posess. We become Baha'i for many reasons. How many of us know what we
are getting into? How many of the ideas and images that move us come from
elewhere?
Wish it was summer here.
"Well I wish I was
On some Australian mountain range.
Ain't got no reason to be there
But I imagine it would be some kind of change."
(Mr. Dylan--Outlaw Blues)
your freind who hopes to post more but lacks time
dave taylor
Again cues are piling up as is, unfortunately, the snow.
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 17:50:14 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Authenticity of texts
To: talisman@indiana.edu
In fairness to Fadil, *no* Baha'i scholar in Iran dealt with sources
in a way that would be satisfactory to a Western scholar. Ishraq-Khavari's
works are full of statements like, "Dar lawhi'st"--"In a tablet is. . . "
--with no indication of source.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:30:44 -0800 (PST)
From: SAFA SADEGHPOUR
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
To: Robert Johnston
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Robert Johnston wrote:
> Dear Safa,
>
> ...the Faith
> >takes a strong stand against abuse, prejudice, theft, rape,
> >homicide, destruction of books, and many other areas. Abuse is never
> >condoned, nor is the destruction of human life. Then, it cannot
> >be said that the statement that "the Bahai Faith is middle ground" to
> >be rigorous and complete.
>
> When I was a child I went with a friend to collect some shoes from the shoe
> shop. We went at "morning interval" and arrived back at nearly lunch
> time. As I recall the weather was wet and miserable. For going away
> without permission and for coming back late anyway, the teacher strapped
> our hands with a lump of leather. Our hands, already numb with cold,
> became agonizingly painful, and we jumped around, our faces contorted like
> images from hell... Now, I hope I learned something from that experience.
> If I am to accept from you that Shoghi Effendi was wrong when he said the
> Faith was the religion of the middle way, then it seems to me that once
> again I am going with Harltey Collett out into the rain to get a pair of
> shoes ...
>
Dear Robert,
I don't know but I keep feeling not a conversation here but
a discussion on who wins, faith or reason - science or religion.
Everything I say seems to be used to show how weak my faith
is, and what that all I say is in some way or another
against the true standard of belief. Can't we have a
simple minded conversation just trying to find what the
truth is instead of trying to prove our point by intricate
arguments and such (I am guilty of this as anyone else)?
When it is said that a statement is not complete and
rigorous this does not imply that the statement is false.
A perfect example is that mentioned by Juan some time
ago, "The Sun rises." This statement is true if all
persons involved understand the specific connotation
of it when used in spoken language. If not, one might
believe that the person who utters that statement is
in total ignorance inasmuch that we know that the
Sun doesn't rise per se, but it is us that translate
around the Sun. The key here is to see the context,
and to follow the connotations carried with a
particular sentence.
I might be off but it seems that Shoghi Effendi
was referring to those things in which the Bahai Faith
characterizes itself in being moderate - Harmony
of Science and Religion, Equality of rights of men
and women, Elimination of extremes of wealth and
poverty, and others. But, I doubt that he was denying
the KIA where it is stated that a murderer shall receive
the death penalty (or a life sentence) (which is quite
a harsh punishment).
Under this logic and following Juan's concept of
Infabillity (if I have not misinterpreted), no statement
coming from a Manifestation of God can be complete
and rigorous inasmuch that this would deny the
principle of Progressive Revelation, the curtains
of Divine Emanation would become shut, and the
ever-flowing rivers of never-emptying sweetness
would come to an end. In other words, there would
be nothing left to say.
>
> You wrote:
>
> Remember, science is inductive at first,
> >and deductive at end. Not the other way around. First, we
> >discover general conditions of truth, then we turn
> >around and use these conditions to test hypotheses.
>
>
> If you insist. The standard of truth on all the world of God is the Baha'i
> Writings... If the Darwinists can prove that 'Abdu'l-Baha was wrong, I'd
Would you say that to the next Manifestation of God when she/he
proclaims a statement which may seem different from either
Darwin or Abdul-Baha? Both scientific and religious
truth are relative, but each claim precedence in their
own realm of validity.
> be very interested...
>
> Always your companion in the schoolroom and on the playground,
>
> Robert.
>
>
Take care.
your friend in the cold and darkness ;),
Safa
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 14:52:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: So, what's wrong with Zuhuru'l-Haqq?
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
With apologies to all for posting again; I'm on Xmas vacation
with too much free time on hand .... besides this subject is too
fascinating not to comment, even though I'm aware its of interest
to a small segment of Talisman.
I think the suggestion of a conspiracy to suppress Zuhuru'l-Haqq
might be too strong, or at least there are other factors that
must be considered.
In 131-132 BE (1975-76), the Iranian publishing trust, printed
volume 8 of ZH in two parts (too thick to make a single book).
There is an interesting comment in the short introduction that
they included. They say, and I paraphrase:
since the publication of vol 3 of 9-volume series of
Zuhuru'l-Haqq, friends have been anticipating publication of
the remaining volumes so they may study and benefit from them.
Recently it was learned that vols 8 and 9 are in Iran and
accessible, and after securing the permission of the NSA we
now present vol 8 with the hope to print vol 9 very shortly.
So I don't believe there was a organized campaign to suppress ZH
series, since as late as mid 70's the Iranian NSA was supporting
its publication. I think a more likely scenario is that the set
was no longer in Iran! Perhaps the entire project was shipped to
Haifa and that's where it was? I don't know, I'm just guessing.
I also think that Richard's theory about authenticity issues of
manuscripts and Texts used, is plausible. As such later volumes
would perceived "accurate" since these covered the contemporary
periods and contained very little Scripture (at least vol 8 is
like that). I suspect that the same would be true of vol 9 since
it covered the time of the Guardian and its accuracy must have
been evident.
But what of earlier volumes?
I don't think John's theory is really applicable to vol 4-9 since
there is almost no mention of the Bab, His Writings and
teachings, or the behavior of the Babis in these (I'm obviously
extrapolating from vol 4, 6 and 8 to the remaining ones, namely,
5, 7 and 9).
Besides, John's theory about unruly Babis and their revolutionary
characters (which is all true!) would be most evident in vol 3
when Fadil discussed individual Babi leaders -- and there is very
little of this sort of thing in there. Thus, it can't be because
of the embarrassing things in there they didn't get published.
My father was a student of both Fadil and Ishraq-Khavari (in fact
he was an assistant of Fadil for some 8 months transcribing
things). If you ask a guy like that what were the ideological
differences between the two, he couldn't answer. But, without a
hesitation he would say Fadil was much more knowledgeable when it
came to Tablets and history, where Ishraq-Khavari knew Islam
better. (My dad also once said of these two men: "The *least*
developed attribute in them, was their knowledge." At first I
was puzzled by this comment, as I thought of these men as great
scholars and expected their *knowledge* to be their outstanding
character, but then I understood how truly remarkable men they
were.)
Getting back to the topic, I'm beginning, therefore, to think
that the issue was as simple as accuracy and authenticity of the
Text.
But we will not know the answer for sure until the Guardian's
communications are made available on this subject.
As for Chris Buck's proposal for translation of an abridged ZH-4
and ZH-5, namely, Baha'u'llah's period, the main problem is that
I don't think anyone outside of Haifa has a copy of ZH-5.
(Chris, are you holding back? Among us book traders that would
the ultimate sin ;-} so, if you got a copy, speak up... at least
whisper it in my ear ...)
Somebody needs to write to the World Centre and ask for a copy.
As part of the proposal to the World Centre, there should be a
discussion of verification of any Text used in ZH. I believe
that much work has already been done on that in Haifa. At any
rate, writing to the World Centre seems to be the next logical
step. Chris, if you're interested in the project, which I think
is a splendid idea, write to Haifa.
regards, ahang.
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 17:49:24 -0500
To: 72110.2126@compuserve.com, Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Talisman Mysticism Conference Call
I couldn't afford the ticket if I had the time, but as it turns out, at the
time of the mysticism conference, i will be in boston at the college art
association conference "seeking" to convince some folks from Baltimore or
somewhere to let me teach drawing and painting for pay. maybe you all could
say a "Hail Mary" or something for me. At any rate the conferences make a
sort of symmetry of endeavor. I wish I could be singing and dancing and
praying and pontificating and speculating with you, but my path leads to
Boston, city of my birth.
On another note, in about a week I will post the address for a web-site which
will contain a few words and scanned color images of five paintings and a
drawing.
David Taylor
ever behind in his mail
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:21:24 -0500
To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz, think@ucla.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
Robert! You went to a horrible grade school and were terribly mistreated.
Really I grieve for you, but you must struggle against such "education," and
not try to impose it on us here. As I recall at the same school where you and
your friend were given such cruel corporal punishment, you were made to
memorize Vachel Lindsay's rhythmic but incredibly racist poem "The Congo(a
study of the Negro Race)".
with concern,
dave taylor
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:19:10 PST8PDT
Subject: Re: infalibility thread request
Hi,
I forwarded the 46 text file archives that Sen sent me
last Spring (end of May 1995). If anyone else has compiled
additional extracts from talisman messages since the end of
May 1995, please send them on.
EP
Volume in drive N is SYS
Volume Serial Number is EED4-7CD9
Directory of N:\DOCUMENT\PERSONAL\TEMP_SEN\TEMP_ALL\INFALLAB
INFAL J22 3,437 10-22-94 10:20a
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> From: Peter_Tamas@bcon.com (Peter Tamas)
> Send reply to: Peter_Tamas@bcon.com
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: infalibility thread request
> Date sent: 17 Dec 1995 19:13:43 GMT
> Organization: BCON
> I've been a wall flower on the list for about four months and would like to
> take a run at the infallibility question. Rather than begin with my partial
> collection of posts on the thread, I'd like to have the whole picture before
> I opened my ignorant mouth. So, if anybody has archived this thread
> (infalibility of the House of Justice) I'd appreciate a copy.
>
> Please don't expect quick turn around..I've done a bunch of this sort of
> stuff at school and it generally takes me a while to come up with a
> reasonable set of questions.
>
> thanks
>
> -Peter Tamas
>
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 17:33:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: ZUHURU'L-HAQQ -- NSA
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Chrs Buck wrote: I submit that Fadil's later work ought to be published
(vols. 4 & 5), beginning with an abridged translation of vols. 4 & 5.
I second this proposal both for its intellectual and historical
significance and as as way of providing some justice in this unfortunate
affair.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * Old musicians never die, they just decompose.
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 17:33:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Teaching Christians
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I am sorry for posting this twice, but in my offline reader it is very easy
to end up putting the wrong subject header on my posts. My original post
listed the subject as Teaching Christians which I felt might not be read by
the appropriate parties.
Dear Robert,
Robert Johnson: "Any intellectual position that is not moderate is untrue."
Dann May: Including this one?
RJ: The Darwinistic viewpoint expresses itself in anti-religious
forms.
DM: It doesn t necessarily have to, see process philosophy.
RJ: Dann, Robert S and Linda (et al) express their positions on
evolution in extreme ways. That is: if yer not with Darwin yer a
fundamentalist and think the world was made in seven days.
DM: I think you have misread me.
I didn't state my extreme allegiance in Darwinism, almost no philosopher or
scientist does. Modern evolutionary theory has moved considerably past
Darwin's original theory. I argued that the universe is in process -- is
dynamic, evolving, and ever-changing -- and suggested that process
philosophy and theology might come to our aid in understanding
Abdu'l-Baha's remarks on evolution. Henri Bergson (1859-1941), a French
philosopher, was writing on the subject at about the same time as
Abdu'l-Baha, and Jack McLean tells me that they even met.
Bergson was one of the most popular and often read philosophers of his day.
He inspired such thinkers as Alfred Whitehead, Gabriel Marcel, Jacques
Maritain, and won acclaim from the American philosophers John Dewey and
William James, as well as considerable praise from Carl Jung. The Nobel
laureate in chemistry Ilya Prigogine credits Bergson as a great influence
on his own work in oscillating chemical reactions (see _Order out of Chaos:
Man s New Dialogue with Nature_, 1984).
Bergson was a critic of two extremes in the then current evolutionary
debate: one being neo-Darwinism, especially mechanistic explanations of
evolution, the other, neo-Lamarkian theories. In other words, he criticized
both mechanistic and teleological theories, and offered what he thought was
a more tenable alternative. Bergson argues in _Creative Evolution_ (1911),
that matter embodies or contains within in itself what he calls _elan
vital_, "the vital impetus" or "principle," "the life force" or life
potentiality that "drives" or gives rise to the very emergence of life on
this planet. This vital principle also impels the evolutionary process to
unfold all of its potentiality in the rich and varied diversity of living
creatures we now see around us. Bergson goes on to argue that consciousness
was always a potentiality within the elan vital and this is what drove the
evolutionary process to eventually bring forth human beings. This might be
one way to interpret Abdu'l-Baha's remarks about "man always being man." In
other words, if consciousness is one of our distinguishing features (what
makes us human), then we could say that we were always potentially present
in the universe, like the genetic encoding of the mature oak tree in the
seed, to use Aristotle's example. The oak tree, like human beings, must
pass through many stages before becoming the mature acorn bearing tree --
but in some profound sense, the mature tree is always "present" in the seed
and in the process, just as human beings could be seen to be always
"present" in the evolutionary process, and in fact being part of the
impetus for the process.
Bergson specialist Pete Gunter (one of my professors at the University of
North Texas) writes: "The evolutionary impetus, as Bergson describes it,
contains within itself an infinity of potentialities, but in a state of
mutual interpenetration. Through its interaction with matter, however, this
impetus has divided in three main directions: the plants, which exist in
vegetative stupor; the arthropods (insects, spiders, crabs, etc.) whose
mode of life is instinctive; and the vertebrates (whose _modus vivendi_ is
"intelligence") culminat ing in the higher primates and man ("Introduction
to the UPA Edition" of _Creative Evolution_, pp. xxxiii-iv).
While Bergson is usually labeled as an "emergent naturalist," his ideas can
be modified to include a more theistic or religious approach. For example,
the elan vital could be seen as the life force (or spirit) that "God"
places in the very core of all matter -- at the heart of every atom or
subatomic particle, or alternatively, it is the process by which God
"begins" the creative act.
I await comment, as I feel such ideas have some potential for dealing with
the difficult area of `Abdu l-Baha s comments about evolution.
PS. A personal note. One reason I never became a Christian was its
anti-scientific stand, especially when it came to evolution. The Baha i
Faith attracted my attention because Baha is claimed to uphold the theory
of evolution as well as the principle of the harmony of science and
religion. My training in paleontology and paleoecology (BS and MS degrees
from the University of Washington and six years of exploration geology with
the Standard Oil Company), however, led me to question the commonly held
explana tions of Abdu l-Baha s discussion of evolution. Such explanations
as well as simplistic readings of Abdu l-Baha simply don t fit very well
with modern evolutionary theory, nor with the contributions made in the
area of the philosophy of science.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * All human beings have an innate urge to know. Aristotle
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Lay Baha`is?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:03:17 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
A posting today which referred to *"lay Baha'is"* and criticized such
individuals for interfering with certain expressions of academic Baha'i
scholarship disturbed me greatly. As an academic who has done some
research related to the Faith, I have no desire to be considered a
*professional Baha'i*, whatever that might be, and, personally, would
never choose to refer to any of my fellow believers as *"lay Baha'is."*
A concern I and others have periodically had is that there may be an
attempt to bring about a certain type of Baha'i intellectual hegemony.
Postings like the one we saw today renewed this concern in my mind.
In the Baha'i community, there are *no professional Baha'is*, in the
sense of a career clergy who are authorized to act as interpreters or
expounders of the text to other believers, and, thus, there can be *no*
*"lay Baha'is."*
Regards to all,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:17:44 +1300 (NZDT)
To: Dave10018@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
Dear Dave,
With friends like you who needs enemies!! ;-} Couldn't you find
something nice -- even if untrue -- to say about me, just as Juan was able
to about John this morning. C'mon buddy, I NEED yer support here!
Robert (sparrow squawking to buckshot) Johnston...
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Lay Baha`is?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:42:43 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
A posting today which referred to *"lay Baha'is"* and criticized such
individuals for interfering with certain expressions of academic Baha'i
scholarship disturbed me greatly. As an academic who has done some
research related to the Faith, I have no desire to be considered a
*professional Baha'i*, whatever that might be, and, personally, would
never choose to refer to any of my fellow believers as *"lay Baha'is."*
A concern I and others have periodically had is that there may be an
attempt to bring about a certain type of Baha'i intellectual hegemony.
Postings like the one we saw today renewed this concern in my mind.
In the Baha'i community, there are *no professional Baha'is*, in the
sense of a career clergy who are authorized to act as interpreters or
expounders of the text to other believers, and, thus, there can be *no*
*"lay Baha'is."*
Regards to all,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:54:35 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: evolution & Socrates misc. (longish)
Ffolks,
Against my better judgement I have decided to respond to some of
these postings on evolution and Socrates.
Ken Seiden wrote:
"I guess I see this point coming up again and again among Baha'is, that is:
physically humans resemble animals but their line was distinct all along...
I just want to say that in terms of the natural sciences, I can see no way
whatsoever of making this a meaningful statement."
The analogy that 'Abdu'l-Baha gives on the development of the embryo in the
womb warrants greater attention I think. From something so frail and
microscopic...to something eternal and universal. Think about it. Then
tell me what views the natural sciences support...
"A variation on the separateness of humans theme is to point out how
distinct humans are in terms of their non-physical qualities; that is,
physically humans resemble animals, but "spiritually" they are distinct and
have been all along. The "hard" response from your average biologist will
be that what distinguishes humans is their sophisticated brain, which
incidentally, evolved physically along with the rest of the body."
Of course. The empiricist cannot prove the existence of God, nor the
existence of the soul. Other forms of proof are required. Of course the
empiricist thinks that with a slide rule and microscope he will get to the
bottom of anything... This is a Faustian fantasy, pure and simple.
Empiricism does not define the scope of science..
Robert Stockman wrote:
"Obviously, scientists would be very uncomfortable with the theoretical and
untestable notion that individual amoeba X had a soul and her brother
amoeba Y did not. So we must remember that this idea exists and makes sense
only in the realms of theology, not in the realm of science. We can hardly
fault Darwin for that. "
Again: scientists have trouyble with the soul anyway, and if we are to
accept the Baha'i view that the soul is attracted to the body at
conception, then it is not to hard to accept that the original "amoeba"
(like a fertilised egg) had a soul... We really have to develop our powers
of vision...
"Another interesting implication of `Abdu'l-Baha's theory is that it turns
the usual popular conception of evolution on its head: evolution was not
the ascent of man, but the descent of everything else from man. Strange."
Please explain.
Ken again:
"It is not clear to me that empiricism (in the tradition of Hume) and
empirical validation (i.e. validation by repeated experience of multiple
individuals) are the same...I believe the latter is fully consistent with
the principles of the Faith."
Empiricist and popular verification requirements are absurd. The most
important existences leave no sensible trace, and their reality is
generally repudiated. Take prophetic dreams for instance... Only among
the illumined are these verified, and not by empirical means. Yet the
illumined consider their deliberations scientific, and the existences
discussed real...
John Walbridge wrote (re. esp. the Socrates matter):
"They [the Founders of the Faith] did not purport to teach about
evolutionary biology, subatomic physics, the history of philosophy, or
whatever. If we try to read them as though that is what they were doing,
the results will be silly."
Not so. Please carefully read the following by 'Abdu'l-Baha. In came with
the other material from the Research Dept. By inference, it becomes clear
-- as Sandy Fotos has pointed out -- that the scientific component of the
Writings cannot be lightly dismissed. (I particularly draw your attention
to "Nevertheless, Holy Writ is authoritative, and with it no history of the
world can compare, for experience hath shown that after investigation of
the facts and a thorough study of ancient records and corroborative
evidence, all have referred back to the Holy Scriptures. The most
important thing is to establish the validity of God's universal
Manifestation; once His claim proveth true, then whatsoever He may choose
to say is right and correct."):
"From the Tablets and Utterances of 'Abdu'l-Baha
As to what thou didst ask regarding the history of the philosophers:
history, prior to Alexander of Greece, is extremely confused, for it is a
fact that only after Alexander did history become an orderly and
systematized discipline. One cannot, for this reason, rely upon traditions
and reported historical events that have come down from before the days of
Alexander. This is a matter thoroughly established, in the view of all
authoritative historians. How many a historical account was taken as fact
in the eighteenth century, yet the opposite was proved true in the
nineteenth. No reliance, then, can be placed upon the traditions and
reports of historians which antedate Alexander, not even with regard to
ascertaining the lifetimes of leading individuals.
Wherefore ye should not be surprised that the Tablet of Wisdom is in
conflict with the historical accounts. It behoveth one to reflect a while
on the great diversity of opinion among the historians, and their
contradictory accounts; for the historians of East and West are much at
odds, and the Tablet of Wisdom was written in accordance with certain
histories of the East.
Furthermore, the Torah, held to be the most ancient of histories,
existeth today in three separate versions: the Hebrew, considered
authentic by the Jews and the Protestant clergy; the Greek Septuagint,
which is used as authoritative in the Greek and other Eastern churches; and
the Samaritan Torah, the standard authority for that people. These three
versions differ greatly, one from another, even with regard to the
lifetimes of the most celebrated figures.
In the Hebrew Torah, it is recorded that from Noah's flood until the
birth of Abraham there was an interval of two hundred and ninety-two years.
In the Greek, that time-span is given as one thousand and seventy-two
years, while in the Samaritan, the recorded span is nine hundred and
forty-two years. Refer to the commentary by Henry Westcott,[l] for tables
are supplied therein which show the discrepancies among the three Torahs as
to the birthdates of a number of the descendants of Shem, and thou wilt see
how greatly the versions differ one from another.
Moreover, according to the text of the Hebrew Torah, from the creation
of Adam until Noah's flood the elapsed time is recorded as one thousand six
hundred and fifty-six years, while in the Greek Torah the interval is given
as two thousand two hundred and sixty-two years, and in the Samaritan text,
the same period is said to have lasted one thousand three hundred and seven
years.
Reflect thou now over the discrepancies among these three Torahs. The
case is indeed surprising. The Jews and Protestants belittle the Greek
Torah, while to the Greeks, the Hebrew version is spurious, and the
Samaritans deny both the Hebrew and the Greek versions.
Our purpose is to show that even in Scriptural history, the most out
standing of all histories, there are contradictions as to the time when the
great ones lived, let alone as to dates related to others. And
furthermore, learned societies in Europe are continually revising the
existing records, both of East and West. In spite of this, how can the
confused accounts of peoples dating from before Alexander be compared with
the Holy Text of God? If any scholar expresses astonishment, let him be
surprised at the discrepancies in Scriptural history.
Nevertheless, Holy Writ is authoritative, and with it no
history of the world can compare, for experience hath shown that after
investigation of the facts and a thorough study of ancient records and
corroborative evidence, all have referred back to the Holy Scriptures. The
most important thing is to establish the validity of God's universal
Manifestation; once His claim proveth true, then whatsoever He may choose
to say is right and correct.
The histories prior to Alexander, which were based on oral accounts
current among the people, were put together later on. There are great
discrepancies among them, and certainly they can never hold their own
against Holy Writ. It is an accepted fact among historians themselves that
these histories were compiled after Alexander, and that prior to his time
history was transmitted by word of mouth. Note how extremely confused was
the history of Greece, so much so that to this day there is no agreement on
the dates related to the life of Homer, Greece's far-famed poet. Some even
maintain that Homer never existed at all, and that the name is a
fabrication.
(From a Tablet, translated from the Persian) .
[1. The English equivalent of this name written in Persian by 'Abdu'l-Baha
is not certain.]"
You (John) continue:
"On a related matter, I read Robert's letter from the Research Dept. on
Socrates as saying that it was a matter to be explained in terms of the
Islamic traditions about Socrates, which is what I have been saying. The
whole issue is laid out in great detail in the book by Ilai Alon that they
cite. The only novelty of the Baha'i texts is that accounts refering
originally to Empedocles have been assimilated with the Socrates
tradition."
Again, this is not (IMHO) a fair representation of what was stated in the
letter. I particularly draw your attention to the following:
"To date, we have no documentary evidence to support the Master's statement
concerning what is "recorded in eastern histories" about Socrates' visiting
the Holy Land [11]. Baha'is accept the "authority [of 'Abdu'l-Baha] on
this matter" [13], since we believe that He had "an intuitive knowledge"
[13] and since He affirmed the source of the report [4]."
Dann May wrote:
"Dear Linda, As a former geologist with six years of training as a
paleontologist, I second your remarks. The universe as seen through the
lens of the [Darwinist] evolutionary process is truly grand and exciting."
I fail to see why the Baha'i account is less exciting.
Dann also wrote:
"I for one am glad to be free from the shackles of the fundamentalist
approach to science."
Are you saying that the account given by 'Abdu'l-Baha in SAQ is fundamentalist?
Dann also wrote:
"I've always thought the Baha'i discussion of evolution could benefit from
the insights found in process philosophy and theology, especially the work
of Henri Bergson, Alfred North Whitehead and Charles Hartsworne. Bergson's
_Creative Evolution_ is especially good, IMO, in dealing with Abdul-Baha's
comments about evolution. "
Are you able to elucidate?
Tony wrote:
"It does seem odd to me that Baha'is would insist on limiting
'Abdu'l-Baha's remarks on evolution to a short scientific essay, while
ignoring their much more profound theological content. After all, as a
scientific treatise, the chapter in Some Answered Questions is not very
interesting or helpful. "
I don't agree. But my definition of science is much broader than the
definitions given by others.
Maybe Baha'is have problems with the fact that 'Abdu'l-Baha was able to
solve this riddle so simply.... But really, it such a minor riddle isn't
it? Compared with the riddles associated with harmonising human
relationships... And every day we have to attend to these riddles.
Philip wrote,
"Finally, these godless Darwinists you've been talking to really represent
only a portion of the Darwinists in the world, many of whom imagine God is
ways you might find acceptable."
Why not stick with 'Abdu'l-Baha?
Juan wrote:
"I have Keven Brown's permission to post a comment he recently made about
`Abdu'l-Baha's statement that the human "species" always existed. Keven and
I agree that by "species" he did not intend the modern biological concept.
Rather, he meant the sublunar reflected `species' (naw`) governed by the
Platonic Form or Idea of humanity. "
Only in modern materialistic/empiricist thought are these two split and
lacking reconciliation.
"I have suggested before that the Master believed that the Platonic Form or
Idea of humanity is reflected in whatever actually-existing earthly species
has attained the most complex neurological development at any one time. Its
specific biological form is irrelevant. "
This viewpoint would seem to fails to adequately address the ontological
reality of a rational soul. Further, do you recall that the Guardian said
that human soul is attracted to the body at conception?
Juan also wrote:
"Of course, all this is only put forward tentatively and awaits the
imprimatur of our foremost living Baha'i philosopher and Suhrawardi expert,
John Walbridge."
No comment
Well that's it,
Robert.
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: 90s pub stats by language
To: pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu (K. Paul Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 20:06:27 EST
Cc: pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu, talisman@indiana.edu, theos-l@vnet.net
Dear Paul:
Thanks for your interesting and instructive bibliographic posts.
They complement Seena Fazel's citation studies.
For us neophytes, could you tell us how one accesses the OCLC database?
Thanks!
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 17:02:23 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: 90's Publishing Stats by Language 1 A First for the Baha'i Faith
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians
I thought I would try and get the actual figures by Language this is
not a reflection on Paul , as I know in many cases the Institutions in
some countries are not so developed as to provide information on
Publishing .
The situation in Russia was reported as Zero for Baha'i .
According to their NSA Secretary today : 40 titles in Russian all
published in the 90's .
I believe that makes us first in Russian . I am sure the Spanish and
German figures are wrong and may be the French as well . I hope to have
the correct ones soon .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: *Gospel Harmony*
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 20:29:19 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Philip privately granted his permission for me to post this reply
on Talisman. (Philip, do want to post the letter you sent to me but
intended for Talisman as well?)
-- Christopher Buck
Christopher Buck writes:
> From cbuck Mon Dec 18 13:26:45 1995
> From: cbuck (Christopher Buck)
> Message-Id: <9512181827.AA00610@superior>
> Subject: Re: Zuhur'l-Haqq and Encyclopedia
> To: belove@sover.net
> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 13:27:57 EST
> Cc: cbuck (Christopher Buck)
> In-Reply-To: ; from "belove@sover.
net" at Dec 18, 95 8:43 am
> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
>
> Dear Philip: 18 December 1995
>
> With the visual dimension of e-mail communication missing, it was
> not possible to display where my tongue was when I suggested that there
> were some deliberate attempts at harmonization in writing Baha'i history.
> My tongue was of course, *Tongue-in-Cheek*.
>
> So as not to appear *cheeky* and run counter to an Baha'i
> Administrative position, I tried to argue around the Guardian's directive
> which Ahang had translated. In that sense, I differ from Juan's style of
> reform. I am the quintessential Canadian in trying to seek the *great
> Canadian compromise*.
>
> I want to say that I perfectly agree with your concerns. My
> strategy is less principled than Juan's. I try, usually unsuccessfully, to
> try to work around administrative barriers by engaging in Baha'i
> discourse, which is a different discourse than academics. It all comes of
> trying to wear two hats at the same time. I encourage you to express these
> views of yours on Talisman. They are important considerations.
>
> Regards,
>
> -- Christopher Buck
>
> **********************************************************************
> * * * * * *
> * * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
> * * * Carleton University * * *
> * * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
> * * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
> * * * * * *
> **********************************************************************
>
>
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 19:02:09 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: infallability (2pgs.)
On the 7 stages of infallibility:
> 1) Divinity; Baha'u'llah??
> 2) Lordship; Bab?? (see page 86 Prayers and Meditations by
> Bahau'llah)
> 3) Prophethood; (Moses? Jesus? Muhammad? Buddha? Krishna? etc.
> these are Prophets endowed with Constancy; Lawgivers, Legislator
> Prophets )
> 4) Messengership; e.g. The lesser Prophets of the House of Israel?
> examples; Isaah? Daniel, Jeremiah etc.
> 5)Guardianship; (Shoghi Effendi?)
> 6)Apostleship; (The Twelve Imams of the Islamic Dispensation?)
> and possibly John the Writer of the Revelation of St. John?? Not sure
> about John.
> 7) Servitude; Question: Mr. Wootten is unable to make any reference
> or give examples on this rank and is asking for further
> assistance of those who may know.
while I like this analysis of the hierarchy as applied to different
stations of beings, I have found that in the Bible most of these stations
are specifically applied to Christ -- in fact, all except Guardianship.
References if you like.
> obeyed, unquestioningly. Another example is the Institution of the
> Hands of the Cause of God, during the period between 1957-63 where
> there was no Guardianship the Institution as a Body enjoyed derived
> infallability pursuing their divinely stipulated duties in the Aqdas.
> Therefore they had the derived infallability to officially convoce
> the election of the Universal House of Justice in 1963.
The institutions which possess infallibility are specifically identified
as such in the Sacred Texts, and while I love this posting, this is a
point on which I wish to express my view; I'm surely willing and open to
changing my views. First, the Hands themselves never claimed
infallibility. Second, in its first message to the Baha'i world after its
election, the House stated that the Cause faced "appalling dangers" during
the time of the Hands. Third, in the compilation on the Continental
Counsellors, there is a letter in which several passages from Shoghi
Effendi on the Institution of the Learned are translated (the only source
I know for some of them). The House comments on these, and in one of
these there is a rather plain disavowal of the infallibility of the Hands.
Finally, I agree that the timing of the election of the House was divinely
guided. There are a multitude of other examples of the guidance the Hands
received during their Stewardship; but there is in the Text no guarantee
of such guidance in every action. Nevertheless, all should have turned
their eyes towards the Hands, and the believers of today should have love
and gratitude for the Stewardship of the Hands. Their rising to the
occasion at a time of not only grief, but sometimes profound doubt, is an
astonishing event in religious history and a proof of their station. In
the words of the House, the Hands brought the ship of the Cause safely to
port, i.e., delivered the Cause of God faithfully into the hands of the
Universal House of Justice in 1963.
My own view is that it is no less important to not expand on the powers of
infallibility granted in the Sacred Texts, than it is to not whittle down
those powers which have been provided.
Brent
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 21:18:40 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: critical texts
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I alluded to the lack of critical editions of Baha'i texts, and Brent
asked me what was meant.
A critical edition will (a) be made from as many
authoritative texts as possible, and (b) will contain enough information
to show the reader what evidence the editor had for his decisions and what
other possibilities were available to him. This is normally done by
annotations of some sort. For example, a critical edition of the Iqan
would indicate the passages added in the margin by Baha'u'llah. If the
manuscripts differ about a word, there will be a note showing the variation
not used and its source. There are also rules for deciding which variation
to chose, how much weight to give various MSS, etc. If you are dealing with
an old text with a lot of manuscripts
, such as a book of the bible or a
famous classical text, it can get quite technical. It would be less so
for Baha'i texts, where you normally have an autograph manuscript available,
although sometimes for Baha'u'llah's works you have more than one version
available.
A critical text, in short, is a tool for (a) getting as reliable a text
as the available information allows while (b) preserving a sort of
audit trail that allows the reader to second-guess the editor.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:26:54 +1300
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: birds/Bergson/capital punishment/relativism
Linda, you wrote:
>Robert, the entire foundation of the Baha'i Faith is not going to fall if the
>Baha'is follow the logic of Darwin's theory.
The question, it seems to me, is: "What useful remains of Darwin's theory
after the Baha'i teachings have been applied?" The major differences carry
intimations of God's wondrous mercy -- the provision of (1) a motive force
besides survival of the fittest, and (2) a story of human origins from
within the womb of the world of breathtaking elegance.
I have just read Dann May's interesting letter and will comment briefly. I
am developing the view that in the modern world the Aristotelian notion of
causation has been mutilated. Vitalism and volutarism (etc) can be
incorporated into the Ariostotelian system, and (therefore) need not be
seen as being at odds with other notions of causation, such as (especially)
final (or first) cause. As John and Nima (et al) will be quick to point
out, the Baha'i viewpoint has strong Aristotelian resonances, to put it
mildly. Naturally (excuse the pun) we owe a debt of gratitude to anyone
who introduces us to the great rhythms and melodies of creation... It just
happens that our debts are to different people...
Dann, you wrote:
>I am sorry for posting this twice, but in my offline reader it is very easy
>to end up putting the wrong subject header on my posts. My original post
>listed the subject as Teaching Christians which I felt might not be read by
>the appropriate parties.
It still has that header, and yes, I almost didn't read it.
(3) Safa, you asked whether I thought capital punishment was extreme. My
response is this: sometimes getting out of bed in the morning is extreme.
Sometimes cutting a flower. Sometimes standing in sunlight. Thus, in
order to assess whether capital punishment is extreme or not we must go the
the Holy Writ and see whether it is permitted. If we see that it is
permitted, we then assume that it is not extreme. This is a marvellous
inductive/deductive science. For a less marvellously scientific analysis
(but marvellous, nonetheless) we could perhaps bring into our deliberations
a wide array of possible punishments for -- say -- mass murder. In this
way we might find that torturing and killing the members of the offender's
family and village is a genuinely extreme punishment.
When we get to the other side Saffa, we must ask a few of those who have
been put to death for heinous crimes whether they themselves thought the
punishment was extreme.... Until we get their picture, we might just as
well be trying to imagine what the feel of water is to a fish. If you know
what I mean.
I think you take relativism too far. Until a law or teaching of the Faith
is changed it is "true". Of course, we know it as true only from the
standpoint of contingency, as well as only until it is changed. But it is
true nonetheless.
Best,
Robert.
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 21:43:41 EST
Subject: Re: infallability (2pgs.)
Dear Brent,
I shall snail mail a hard copy of your response to Mr. Wootten.
He is an interesting old-timer the only white man who can
successfully put up a tipi and live in it for ten years (that I know
of). He was elated to be able to communicate with some Baha'i
scholars. I was happy to provide the opportunity for one day.
He has deep and profound faith and knowledge of the Writings.
However, he falls in the category of eccentric personage.
He spent all his time studying Mathnawi, Quran and Baha'i Writings
including other sacred scriptures. Sorry, I can't speak on his behalf
regarding what he wrote. But, I consider him a good friend.
best regards,
*** ***
* *
*
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:44:17 +1300
To: Juan R Cole , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Review / Provisional Translations
Juan Cole wrote:
>
>Those lay Baha'is who are so eager to tell professional Baha'i historians
>and philosophers how they should do things would be well advised to listen
>to us when we say that their suggestions are impractical and have a
>deleterious effect upon Baha'i scholarship (and thence upon a number of
>other important areas--publication of journal articles, incorporation of
>accurate accounts into reference works, public knowledge of the Faith,
>and teaching persons of capacity).
Judas, as 'Abdu'l-Baha points out, was the brightest of the disciples. I
guess what got Judas in the end was arrogance... More mildly, Fadl was
humbled by a mere blacksmith... The Master also wrote that the early
Christians, though unlettered, were genuine philosophers... But of course
these don't apply here. They just came to mind, that's all. Nothing
personal....
From my keyboard to God's ear,
Robert.
=END=
[end of 12/18/95 session
=END=
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