Talisman Bahai Archives Dec. 13-14, 1995
Dec. 13-15, 1995
T951214
Talisman emails, received 12/13/95-12/14/95
Note: I was unable to locate the first three 64k dumps of this online session, so the 12/14 log is incomplete and starts in the middle of a post.
+++++++++
about this issue. We all ( myself included) have a
long way to go before we really understand "the" letter, and this issue in
general, the continued dialogue here can only lead to a clearer understanding
for all of us.
- Daniel (what has this issue got to do with polygamy anyway?) Orey
=END=
From: Rick Schaut
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: "Talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: RE: Conscience
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:33:23 -0800
Dear Juan and Friends,
I don't recall ever saying that one should not follow one's
own conscience. However you choose to make your
bed is no business of mine. I don't have to sleep
in it.
I just find myself unable to say that my conscience
would prevail in any particular circumstance. Why?
My conscience is not a static entity. It changes, and
will change. I can only say that, faced with a conflict
between my own values and a decision of the Universal
House of Justice, I will spend a great deal of effort
questioning the validity of my values relative to the
Writings.
This may be nothing more than a semantic difference.
But a statement that one will always follow one's
conscience implies that one is not open to this
process of self-doubt--that one has shut the door to
the idea of questioning one's own values. I think this
stance is as morally wrong as the belief that one should
always bow to authority regardless of the dictates of
one's conscience.
Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: Re: Polygamy & the Baha'i community
To: MBOYER%UKANVM.BITNET@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:31:46 MST
Cc: osborndo@pilot.msu.edu, talisman@indiana.edu (Talisman)
Hi Milissa:
While others have commented on whether a polygamous man must divorce his
wives, except for the first wife, upon converting to our Faith--the answer
is no--I wanted to touch upon our attitudes to polygamy by posting the text
of a comment to the Universal House of Justice, and its reply.
The following question was submitted 6 January 1994 to the
Universal House of Justice for its consideration:
If the House of Justice would allow me the following comment regarding
the issue of monogamy, and the manner of its introduction by Baha'u'llah
whereby He was enabled to "outwardly permit two wives in the Kitab-i-
Aqdas but uphold a condition that enabled `Abdu'l-Baha to elucidate
later that the intention of the law was to enforce monogamy" (note 89).
In my view, the statement and elucidation of this law in this manner
allows the Baha'i community to build bridges between those peoples who
traditionally practiced polygamy and Baha'u'llah's new World Order.
As a case in point, among the Inuit of northern Canada traditional
marital practice allowed for more than one wife. These arrangements
were usually a matter of urgent survival or socio-economic support, for
example, where a widow would join an established family. In this
situation it was deemed proper for the head of the family to enter into
a marital relationship with the widow, and would have been deemed
improper to do otherwise. The taking of a second wife in these
circumstances would have been viewed as an act of mercy.
Some anthropologists have suggested that within isolated communities
polygamy may have served to diversify the population genetics.
Like many other aboriginal peoples, polygamy among the Inuit has now
disappeared largely from the direct influence of Christian missionaries
who haughtily assumed the moral highground; but the price was feelings
of guilt among the new converts.
In my view, Baha'is should be able to honestly appreciate and respect
the historical function of polygamy within aboriginal societies, such as
Inuit society, without assuming a superior moral attitude, while
applying Baha'u'llah's counsel "that tranquillity and contentment derive
from monogamy" (note 89) to the present social conditions. Would the
Universal House of Justice consider this a proper Baha'i perspective on
the issue?
The reply of the Universal House of Justice dated 6 April 1994 was:
"Your view that Baha'is "should be able to honestly appreciate and
respect the historical function of polygamy within aboriginal societies,
such as Inuit society, without assuming a superior moral attitude" is
commendable. Of course, when a member of such a society becomes a
Baha'i, he is then bound by the Baha'i law in this regard. The Baha'i
Faith accepts as valid marriages those polygamous unions that a man has
entered into before becoming a Baha'i, whether these unions were
solemnized under civil or religious law or by tribal custom. To require
such a man to give up one of his wives would destroy a family unity
which has already been established, and that would be against the spirit
of the Faith. However, once he has become a Baha'i, such a man becomes
subject to Baha'i law and cannot enter into any more marriages. Even
should one of his wives die or be divorced he cannot replace her unless
the time comes when he is entirely without a wife; only then would he be
free to marry again."
Loving regards,
stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 00:05:48 +0100 (MET)
Subject: conscience
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Mark foster said that "individual conscience represents
nothing more than one's, particularly primary, socialization
(or, in a sense, conditioning)."
Which would leave us with determinism: our environment
forms our concience, our conscience determines our actions,
our actions determine our environment - or that of the next
generations. Important though social conditioning is, two
aspects are missing here: 1) the individual's knowledge of
him/herself (know his own self) and of the immediate
situation (those things which lead to loftiness and honour..),
both of which make it impossible to simply apply social
norms, and make an internal reflective capacity necessary,
and 2) the individual capacity for transcendence, for
freedom, for spiritual insight, which distinguishes us from
animals and frees us from materialistic determinism. To
reduce conscience to conditioning reduces the human
person to a sophisticated animal.
One measure I've always found useful in dealing with
ethical questions comes from Oscar Wilde, who said "I
have learned that, though it may not matter what one does,
it does matter what one becomes" (my paraphrase). For
instance, a raffle ticket now and then is not gambling away
the means of livelihood, unless one's livelihood is
extremely slender, but in my case I observed that I lived in
the interval between buying the ticket and seeing the draw
in a sort of slightly abstracted reality. The consequences of
immediate decisions were slightly fuzzed in the fog of
optimistic expectations. It takes little wisdom to see what
kind of person one becomes by continuing in this way - so
I don't buy raffle tickets, lotto, prize bonds, etc.. In my
book, there is no way that social conditioning can substitute
for self-knowledge. And granted a modicum of self-
knowledge, a degree of moral responsibility and ability to
transcend conditioning follow. Which I should have thought
was a rather fundamental premise of the Baha'i life?
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: Research Dept letter on Homosexuality
To: talisman@indiana.edu (Talisman)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 16:00:42 MST
Sorry for using up the bandwidth here. Can someone email me a copy of
the Research Department's recent letter on Homosexuality; it must have been
posted when I was temporally unsubscribed to Talisman recently.
Thanks, stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 00:06:34 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Ishraqat dating?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Can anyone help with a date for the composition of the
tablet of Ishraqat?
Thanks
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: 13 Dec 95 18:54:09 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: An Experimental Suggestion
Dear Talismanians,
My, what an embarassment of riches we have had during the past few days
here on good old Talisman! Sonja's wonderful dream and video, Sandy
Fotos' piece on fractals, Burl's fractured humor (Hey, B., it's Highway
*61,* not 51, and wasn't the middle name of that guy you were looking
for *Zhang?*), Terry and Juan's persuasive posts on conscience, and most
especially Bud Polk's *White Shoes with Velcro Closures* piece, which
reduced me to tears right here in the office, and which I hereby nominate
as the year's most moving and powerful Talisman post.
Counselor Birkland and I had a wonderful breakfast together on Monday, and
we talked about the high quality and penetrating insight modeled by some
of the posts here. He praised Talisman's impact on the larger community,
and suggested something to me that I thought should be passed along.
His suggestion, and I probably won't do it justice, went something like
this: why not take a suggestion/problem/item that comes up on our little
forum here, and apply the same rules of consultation to it that apply in
any Baha'i administrative environment, thereby coming to at least some
tentative conclusions? Several paradigms for such discussion have surfaced
on Talisman, the one I remember most clearly put forth by Mary Kay Radpour,
and certainly others might come forward, as well. The good Counselor
inferred that our discussions here could bear fruit in other quarters if
we were able to manifest some unity amongst our admittedly diverse
viewpoints.
Anyone want to give it a try? Or at least talk about the process we might
need to go through to attempt it?
Love,
David
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:26:59 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: Re: Polygamy & the Baha'i community
Ooops! Hit the wrong key. :-)
Tony
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: Polygamy & the Baha'i community
Date: 95-12-13 13:20:36 EST
From: Member1700
To: osborndo@pilot.msu.edu
It is true that, while the laws of the Faith forbid the taking of more than
one wife (well, at least, now they do), if one has a polygamous marriage
before becoming a Baha'i or before knowing about the law, that marriage is
recognized as legitimate within the Baha'i community. This does commonly
happen in Africa, for instance.
Also, I have seen instances in Africa were even active Baha'is, finding
the need to take a second wife (say, because of the serility of the first
wife) in accordance with the customs of their culture, have done so. And the
Baha'i community has been decidedly tolerant of that decision. In some
cultural situations, taking a second wife is virtually obligatory--say, when
a brother dies leaving a widow who must be taken care of. I asked an
auxiliary board member for Africa about that once, and she just shrugged her
shoulders and said, "Well . . ."
It is my impression that strict monogamy is not made too much of an issue
of in Africa. Even in accordance with the strictest interpretations of
Baha'i law, if one is unaware of the law, or if one does not sufficiently
appreciate the importance of the law, then one is not responsible for
violating it--and any marriages that result are valid.
We had a situation in our community, for instance, where a Baha'i had
been inactive for a few years and got married. She knew about the Baha'i
marriage laws, but thought that since she was inactive they were not relevant
to her and got married. Then she became active again, and this came out.
The National Assembly advised us that since she had not sufficiently
appreciated the application of the law in her situation, she had acted out of
(relative) ignorance and therefore did not need to have a Baha'i marriage.
Her marriage was recognized and valid in accordance with Baha'i law.
So, there is more flexibility in application of (positive) Baha'i law
than some would lead us to believe.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Re: conscience
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 18:30:57 -0600 (CST)
Eric Pierce wrote the talisman@indiana.edu:
P>Lacking much interest in the predictable and tedious theoretical
P>aspects of this discussion, I would like to ask Tim, Rick, Robert,
P>Mark:
P>If you were in Jane's shoes, and in the extremely unlikely event
P>that the House of Justice told you to turn Mary's address over to
P>the Bloomtown LSA, and you complied, and that action resulted in
P>Mary's allegedly vicious husband finding her and killing her,
P>would you consider her blood to be on your hands, the hands of the
P>House, the hands of the husband, or all of the above?
Eric,
That is a strange one! I am not sure what to say - except that I
would certainly obey the Universal House of Justice. However, if I felt
that there were extentuating circumstances with which the House might
not be familiar, I might want to provide the Supreme Body with additional
information and ask it to reconsider. But in the event that I was still
asked to comply, I would do so - trusting in the wisdom of God. If
something tragic like you mentioned were to happen, I would not blame
anyone except her husband.
Loving greetings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Kansas Director, Foundation for the Science of Reality (Info. on Request) *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-)
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Re: Conscience
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 18:30:43 -0600 (CST)
Two messages are included in this post - to K. Paul Johnson and Richard
Hollinger. First, for Paul...
Hi, Paul -
I agree with you that the capability to develop language is a good
analogy for the development of conscience. However, because the human
brain has the capability to learn language, that obviously does not mean
that one language or the other is favored. Likewise, although the
capacity to develop a conscience (the way one's mind is made up) exists
in the individual, it does not seem to me that any particular moral
framework would be inherently more "natural" than another. A personal
conscience is, IMO, a result of reactions to events; i.e., it is a
consequence of one's moral and behavioral choices. As such, individual
consciences (generalized others or superegos) generally reflect the
collective consciences of one's significant moral communities (culture
and subcultures).
P >O Son of Being! Thy heart is my home; sanctify it for My
P >descent. Thy spirit is My place of revelation; cleanse it for
P >My manifestation.
Yes. I agree that the above passage relates closely to the subject
of conscience. However, the Baha'i teachings also speak of the
susceptibility of the heart to deception. It was for that reason that I
wrote a few days ago, in relation to individual conscience, about the
difficulty in distinguishing between intuition and imagination. From
personal experience, I know how one can strongly, passionately believe
that one is correct in some area only to discover subsequently that one
had sorely misunderstood.
P >What about it? Must it be a black/white either/or distinction,
P >argued on the basis of scriptural proofs?
My point is that conscience is not an innate faculty of the soul. It
is a mental attribute which develops as one internalizes a dominant
normative framework. In that sense, while conscience is useful as a
measure of one's own spiritual development, it does not, IMO, carry the
same weight as the decisions of the Universal House of Justice. I am a
structural sociologist (Durkheim, Marx, etc.), not a sociological
behaviorist or micro-exchange theorist (a la Homans, Burgess, etc.), and
I tend to view reality holistically or sui generis.
P >Mark, it is most unlike you to demonize your ideological
P >opponents, but that is what the following passage seems to do:
Well, my intention was not to demonize anyone. I always try to
distinguish between ideas and the thinkers behind them. I have nothing
but respect for my fellow Talismanians. However, I do disagree with some
of the metaphysical, epistemological, and eschatological assumptions
expressed by a few of my colleagues and others. Most of the points I
made in my early morning post, I have stated here previously. I doubt
that they were any surprise to many people. However, I think that you
were on your first hiatus from the list at the time I made my postings
on these subjects.
The either-or version of "standpoint epistemology" I referred to is
based on several postings I have seen over the last nine months dealing
with what I would perceive to be a compartmentalization of science and
religion, an "autonomous realm of human reason," and a belief which, as
best I understand it, that if one is viewing reality from the spiritual
level, one cannot simultaneously treat it on the level of materiality.
Several Talismanians appear to me to more or less agree with one or
another of these perspectives. As someone who has, several times, taught
courses in social science research to graduating seniors, each of these
seems to be based a nominalist/reductionist methodological framework.
About the review process: To my understanding, though I may have
misinterpreted what others have said, some of the posters do regard
review as a conscience violation. However, as you say, I do not know if
that is "solely" the reason why they have issued calls for it to be
immediately "abolished."
Regarding democracy: There have been several postings recently which
have argued that the Baha'i system should be a democracy. Several months
ago, there was a message (and I generally prefer not to mention names
unless I am prodded ) which stated that, now that we no longer have a
living Guardian, we have the opportunity to reshape the Baha'i world
order model according to a democratic framework. Others seemed to agree.
However, Shoghi Effendi said that democracy was only one of the
recognized forms of government to which parallels to the Baha'i system
could be drawn. IMV, `Abdu'l-Baha's praise for democracy should be seen
in the context of the time - and especially by comparison to the
nineteenth-century Near East and her institutionalized denial of basic
civil liberties. By itself, assuming the existence of a strong basis in
moral community, democracy is certainly preferable to most other
political systems.
About infallibility: I agree with you that the folks I am referring
to *might* not believe that the doctrine of the infallibility of the
House of Justice is in itself dangerous. However, that is not what I
said. My point was only that some of the posters appear *to me* to
believe, based on an examination of the primary sources, that the House
of Justice is not guaranteed infallibility - or perhaps just not in the
common sense of the word. Indeed, there have been some such postings in
the last several days. I do not know Arabic and Persian, so I am really
at a loss here. However, from my POV, this denial, if that is the right
word (and I am not trying to damn anyone!), of the infallibility of the
House of Justice appears *to me* to contradict what the Guardian and the
House itself have written.
P >Explain further? This sounds like marginalizing opponents by
P >name-calling. A time-honored Baha'i tradition, of course, but
P >not one that needs to be upheld.
I do not think that I am calling anyone names, and, again, I have
been careful to leave personalities out of it. I was only describing,
accurately I hope, the methodological/metatheoretical perspectives of
some of the posters. There is nothing inherently wrong with nominalism
or reductionism, if that is how one views reality. And, recognizing the
intelligence of others on this list , I am fairly sure that those who
have been taking this approach recognize it themselves. It is not one
that I would choose to avail myself of, but I know many people who find
it useful.
P >NOTHING MORE?!? Do you *really* mean that? Talk about
P >reductionism! "Nothing more" is always a clear symptom of it
P >in such a context.
As I see it, the conscience is the socialized self. That was the
view of philosopher/pragmatist/sociologist George Herbert Mead and is
one which I also accept. By saying "nothing more," I meant that the
conscience itself is, IMV, not innate in the individual. It is emergent
or, as Mead might say, telescopic.
P >"All men are created equal" is obviously false at one level, but
P >isn't there truth behind it?
Rather than "equal," I would prefer to say "equitably" - at least
from a God's-eye viewpoint.
Namaste, my friend,
Mark
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, Richard -
I agree with you about the importance of carefully electing souls to
serve on the Universal House of Justice. However, personally, I think
that the most important quality to consider is justice - a proven record
of investigating truth through their "own eyes and not through the eyes
of others."
Blessings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director, Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-)
=END=
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 17:48:42 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Law and Communion
On Tue, 12 Dec 1995 TLCULHANE@aol.com wrote, in part:
> I dont think the Faith of Baha ullah is about legalism at all and I am
a > Bahai , somewhat mystically inclined at that.... > I would argue that
the Faith of Baha u llah is about creating a religious > community
centered around the esoteric - The Mashriqu'l Adhkar - and > structuring
that , institutionalizing that reality in dalily life . It is > intended
to be , in my view , a community that builds itself around > supporting
the esoteric truth of life...
I see part of the message of the Seven Valleys as a breaking down of the
traditional barrier between the "legal" approach and the "esoteric"
approach of individuals of different temperaments in response to the
Revelation. Both seem to me to be essential parts of Baha'i life. I
agree that in the West we have under-rated the inner dimension of the
Faith. It's already in there; we have not fully appreciated it or applied
all dimensions of the Faith to our working daily understanding of what it
is to be a Baha'i. We got too much of Robert's Rules in there, and not
enough of the spiritual qualities. Those spiritual qualities are front
and center in Shoghi Effendi's "Baha'i Administration," and he kept trying
to get us to stop clogging up the works with regulations and focus the
Assemblies instead on encouragement and liberating people's energies and
true selves. This, to me, is the connection between the "Seven Valleys"
and "Baha'i Administration." Each has a goal: The first, to draw the
soul closer to God, and the second, to embody the spirit of the Cause in
institutions which function in consonance with the Revelation. The
foundation of each is the qualities of the believer. This is explicit in
both books.
Brent
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 20:36:30 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Conscience again
Dear Friends ,
I do not think conscience is a mere function of socialization nor do I
find it to be "merely " our sense of right and wrong . Socialization
structures the capacities of the soul and one of the principle manifestations
of those capacities is what we call conscience . To suggest it is nothing
more than socialization seems to me a fine explanation at the level of Nasut
but hardly a comprehensive understanding . It is its own form of
reductionism.
It is perhaps what Aristotle and Jefferson :) understood by a "moral sense"
common to all human beings . I think there is justification for this in Abdul
Baha 's remarks in Paris talks as well as in his Commentary on the Hidden
Treasure hadith. It is this moral sense which represents the basis for
equality before God and before the Law . In this I find one of the
significances of "recognition" in the Aqdas . Baha u llah suggests , I cant
find the quote at the moment in Gleanings , that this faculty of recognition
was intended to be more developed in humanity at the time of his appearence
but appears to have regressed . This faculty it seems to me is a " moral
sense " or conscience .
I am surprised that some would , who frequently champion the value of
broader perspectives than scientific positivism or the historical -critical
method, resort to to a form of social behaviorism to justify the inadaquacy
of conscience vis a vis the relinquishing of conscience in favor of the House
. This seems curious to me .
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Homosexuality/Conscience
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 20:09:33 -0600 (CST)
Again - two messages: First to Dave Taylor (homosexuality, etc.) and
then to Sen McGlinn. First to Dave...
Hi, Dave -
I agree that the House's ruling on the subject of homosexuality may
be a burden for many souls. Since I first read the message, I have been
especially praying for those individuals who might have been dishearted
by it. I am, like yourself, on America Online (in fact, as remote
staff), and, therefore, I have had the opportunity to read each of the
postings in the Baha'i folder in the Gay and Lesbian Forum. I was deeply
touched both by the pain experienced by some of these individuals and by
their willingness to remain in the Cause and be firm in the Covenant in
spite of the fact that, outwardly, it might have been *easier*, say, to
be a Unitarian-Universalist, a Hicksite Quaker, or even an Episcopalian.
We are certainly, those of us who are Westerners or members of
Western Baha'i communities, a long way from the high standards of the
teachings. Unfortunately, probably due to our collective Christian
heritage (though I have never been a Christian, personally ), we may
sometimes focus more on the problems associated with homosexual than
heterosexual promiscuity. In reality, both indicate a need for growth.
Certainly, unnecessary condemnation is not the answer. We are the
generation of the half-light, and we need to be patient with ourselves
and with each other.
About aesthetic realism: I was not promoting it - only indicating
that it has been used by some people who wished to change their sexual
orientation. I recognize that it, like all current approaches, is not
terribly successful. However, I do like its dialectical philosophy.
Seigel, of course, did not specifically develop aesthetic realism as a
"treatment" for homosexuality. As laid out in his _Self and the World_,
it is an applied moral philosophy. I am a native New Yorker (born and
raised in the city), and I heard about it while I was living there from
a friend (a gay male member of the Unification Church).
I look forward to discussing these subjects (yoga and Tantra?) more
with you. As you may know, I am a trained hatha yoga teacher and have,
in the past been taught ("initiated" into) two forms of yogic meditation
(both variations of Shiv Dayal's surat shabd yoga). I am immensely
interested in Indian religion, especially the Kashmir Shaivite school of
Tantra and its marvelously esoteric ontology.
Blessings to you,
Mark
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Sen -
Thanks for your note. I agree with you. Essentially, I suppose, I am
a structural "determinist" (though I don't much care for the word
"determinist" ). I believe that the narrative framework one accepts
has a significant influence on one's thoughts and feelings (including
one's conscience), decisions, and actions. As I did this morning, I
would relate the development of the conscience to early childhood
socialization, as stated by the Master.
Warm greetings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (& Kansas Director), Foundation for the Science of Reality*
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-)
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 21:46:48 EST
Subject: QUANTA'S HOME PAGE
Here it is folks,
You can see Quanta at her cyberhome!
http://fllab.chass.ncsu.edu/~dawnliqu/test.htm
*** ***
* *
*
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:50:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy A. Nolan"
To: Member1700@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Conscience
Tony Lee writes
tn> Note: Faithful obedience is NOT the same as blind obedience.
>
tony> Will someone kindly explain the difference?
>
Aha! this is a good question and may lead to some true progress!
What is the difference between doing something faithfully and
doing it blindly?
I think the disagreement about obeying the House of Justice may
lie precisely in this: some of us see no difference between
obeying faithfully and obeying blindly. Others see a great difference.
Thank you Tony for this significant question.
Tim Nolan tan1@cornell.edu
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: re: Conscience again
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 20:52:24 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Terry -
I think that we may be talking terminology. One of my passions is
the exploration of what I regard as the twin purposeful powers of the
soul (the human spirit and the spirit of faith) and their respective
manifestations (such as the mental faculties, bodily coordination, will
power, the innate character, the magnet of faith and service, the
faculty of inner vision, and the the portion of grace). However, the way
that *I am using the term conscience*, I am not referring to any of the
manifestations of spirit specifically but to the result of using and
developing those powers.
For example, how I choose (using my will power) to direct my mental
faculties of imagination, thought, understanding, memory, etc.,
including on the physical level of immediate acts and attributes (using
the coordination of bodily functions), gives me my mental/emotional
makeup (or conscience). My choices (the expression of will power,
through the brain, as free will), however, are largely determined by the
narrative framework of the moral community I identify with and am
socialized by. If I turn my mental faculties to the Kingdom revealed
(the condition which is the spiritual animus of this world), the realm
of purity I can now access, my human spirit will be assisted by the
magnet of faith and service (spiritual love) and inner vision (spiritual
knowledge) and soul growth will be promoted (enlarging my portion of
grace or spiritual capacity). I will then, as the teachings say, be
possessed of a "spiritual heart and conscience." It is, IMHO, a state I
need to attain through constant spiritual work.
Therefore, as I see it, one's conscience is the *result* of one's
choices. As the Master reportedly said, one can turn the reflective
mirror to the physical world or the world of the Kingdom. My conscience
will, within the context of a supportive, moral community, be whatever I
make it.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (& Kansas Director), Foundation for the Science of Reality*
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-)
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:45:26 -0900
To: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: conscience
ffolks,
Sen wrote:'>Mark foster said that "individual conscience represents
>nothing more than one's, particularly primary, socialization
>(or, in a sense, conditioning)"' and went on to make a case for self
>construction.
Comment: If one widens "social context" to include the presence of the
Unseen and Its Abha forces, then Sen's and Mark's positions may be
reconciled. Sen makes a distinction between self-construction and social
construction, but in a profoundly real sense self is never isolated --
never non-social.
In a postmodern/social-constructionist context thinkers typically argue
against what is seen as a Cartesian kind of unitary self identity. Of
course they don't really allow for the Unseen, though, so while we Baha'is
probably like their inter-connected conception of self, we do like to think
that there is sufficient autonomy to make possible such things as stands on
points of principle. This autonomy should however -- expressed briefly --
be seen as self-in-the-presence-of-God-and-the-S/supreme-c/concourse.
Robert.
Robert..
A bird in your hand is useless if you want to blow your nose.
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:40:12 -0900
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Impact on the individual (was conscience & infallibilit)
Dear Sandy,
I am particularly impressed by the mild and even nature of your
position. In much of this discussion there is polarisation, with blind
obedience and the dictates of conscience being heavily contrasted. You
articulate a moderate position regarding House. And why not? This is the
religion of the middle way, afterall. Why should the thought of the House
making decisions become the occasion for a conscience crisis? ;-} "Extreme
case scenarios" will always be challenging, but -- mostly --
life-with-the-House is not like that.
I hear something of the
unity-of-affirmation-in-response-to-decisions-in-view-of-any-wrongness-there
by-
righting-itself advice in your letter. However, I would be reluctant to
apply this advice to House decisions...
You write of decisions sometimes favouring the many and disadvantaging the
few, or disadvantaging the many and favouring the few, or disadvantaging
the present and favouring the future. I suppose you are right. If you are
I'd better chose my positions well (sometimes a democrat, sometimes a
monarchist) and live a long life!
Best wishes,
Robert.
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 06:56:37+030
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: Re: art & entertainment-reponse to Bev
Dear Sonja:
Your statement "art is not entertainment" was not stupid, just human. I
don't like the word stupid much...it has too many negative judgemental
associations. To err is human. I've enjoyed your comments and questions
very much. I agree with many of them completely and there are a few which
are interesting and important to pursue.
>Now this means a discussion of jsut how one would would
>classify something as art.
>A comic book is entertainment but is it art? Just as an oil
>painting of some sunflowers created to amuse the painter
>on their Sunday afternoons?
>
>Here I am aksing questions of intent rather than form (and
>a large part -at least from my perspective that is- of
>postmodernist concerns with representation deal with form-
>whether a comic book is art because it is a comic book.)
>I'm asking hte question because the comic book's intent was
>to entertain.
For example, comic books. You don't feel that comic books are art because
the intent was to entertain. At a certain level, this is true. I would
suggest that the intent of comic books was to get little kids (like me) to
spend our money at the candy shop on a soda and a "Casper". The motive "to
entertain" might be aiming a little high. It is interesting to note a third
role, however, in that comic books have had a huge impact on an entire
culture...an impact that artists could only hope to achieve. Because of
this, museums have included exhibitions of comic books. The graphics are
great, and a craft in and of themselves, so much so that Pop artists used
the comic book form to create art and a statement about the effect of art.
That would be an interesting avenue of thought to pursue, wouldn't it? What
about things which have the affect of influencing an entire nation's
thinking, daily dialogue, taste and imagination? The intent was commercial,
and yet the art of it has swept a nation. How do we classify that? I don't
know how I see this issue, and would appreciate a more in depth discussion.
I'm not even sure how I want to phrase the question. The question could
also expand beyond the visual arts to media which affects culture. For
example, the written word, "pulp fiction", which dates well back to our Wild
West Days and the exploits of Billy the Kid here in North America. What was
the intent of Charles Dickens? Mark Twain? (This needs the historical
context they wrote in, the audience they intended, and the medium they used
before we agrandized them.) What about soap operas, Oprah Winfrey, etc.?
(I am horrified that Oprah has made International fame over the boob tube, I
can't stand it! Nice lady, but the sensationalism is revolting to me.
There is no way you can treat some of the issues she deals with with dignity
in such a public format. It is like a modern day gladiator arena...and don't
get me started on Geraldo and kind!)
As to the Sunday Painter, I have learned over the years to appreciate their
efforts to develop a craft, to explore some of the issues of art, and, in
their own fashion, they do make a kind of art. If you take seriously the
abstract impressionist school, then you also need to take seriously the
sunday painter. I say this in the sense that the abstract expressionist was
enamoured of the elements of colour, line, form, and interested in the
relationships between them. They were also interested in the psychological
response to these elements. The Sunday painter also responds to these
elements, or they would take up baking cakes on a Sunday, or shopping, to
satisfy their consumer needs. I have learned to appreciate the Sunday
Painter for their response to colour, to the satisfaction of "making", and
the psychological pleasure and satisfaction they get from the act of
painting. Sunday painting is rarely involved in making statements, but it
does have it's place in the art world...in fact it would be great to see an
exhibition of Sunday painters in a gallery sometime.
>I would not call Maori dance 'art', but I would call it a
>'craft', not to assume it is less, but that it has another aim -
>to share the familiar. We recognize the skill, the stories,
>etc. However at the same time there is no real dividing line
>between what is art or craft. Rather more differing
>perspectives that are sometimes easier to discern and at
>times not. And I find it significant that Baha'u'llah always
>refers to both in his Writings. But if there is a way to find
>a difference, I would say it lies in the intent of the
>creator/maker/performer rather than in the form. So
>someone using Maori dance form could use it to make
>some statement/discovery (however non-evident this may be
>the the viewer).
This is a good point. But, again, like with pulp fiction and comic books,
this craft has the ability to shape the imaginative and thinking responses
of a society. At what point do we classify one form of dance as craft, and
another as art? Is ballet or jazz a craft or an art form? Do we classify
it because it is what we are familiar with, or have been educated to think
of as "high art" as opposed to "ritual art"? Where would that leave much of
the early Christian art which carried from church to church to be used
during Mass, and the intent of which was to tell the story of Christ, and to
inspire the illiterate to partake in the ritual of communion?
>>How can an artist control whether a person will be
>>entertained or enlightened by what the artist gives form
>to?
>I think the artist should be able to read their audience - I
>believe that is part of the art presentation and an artist
>should present her/his work in an appropriate way. Now,
>this may sound extreme. What I mean is that, there is no
>neutral way of presenting an art work, and so how the artist
>chooses to present/show their work is as important as the
>very making of the work. If the artist is conscious of
>how/where/the environment/society that they are presenting
>their work in, then they will be able to influence the way it
>is read by others. No one can control another's reactions,
>even when presenting hard facts, so why would an artist
>want to try to do this anyway? But to influence (share
>with) others is I believe, the reason most artists would
>present their work.
>If this doesn't make sense-ask me to give some concerte
>examples to explain what I mean.
This statement makes a lot of sense; it also presents an assumption on which
to base this argument. What I mean by this is that to assume this position,
art becomes defined as an act or form created with the express purpose of
display to an audience, and with the hope of an effect on that audience.
Would that mean that everything else would be relegated to "craft"? Has art
been defined as this? Doesn't that limit the possibilities somewhat, and
create a kind of "ivory tower" elitism?
>
>I would not call story telling entertainment because of its
>form, but if it's purpose was just to literally repeat what
>already was/had happened.
Some tribes in Africa have story tellers who are the holders of the history
of the tribe. Their "job" in life is to memorize the history and geneology
of the tribe...they are the memory of the people...which is quite an art in
itself. This is then "sung" and performed at significant gatherings, so
that people develop that sense of who they are. Is this art or craft? Do
we not make art to reflect "who we are"?
>
>Your comments/questions are great! Perhaps some other
>artist Talismanians would like to comment? I'm sorry I
>have to run!
>love, Sonja
>
I'd love to get more feedback too, and not just from artists. It would be
interesting to see how non-artists, i.e., scientist types, social
scientists, psychologists, respond to these issues.
I'll be away over the Christmas break, and will not be here to receive
E-mail. So I hope someone saves any comments and responses to this topic
for me, and will forward them on my return. I'll be gone from the 19th to
the 26th, and then from the 1st to the 7th of January.
Love,
Bev.>
>
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:48:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy A. Nolan"
Subject: Re: conscience and obedience (back to Appleville and Bloomtown)
"Eric D. Pierce" writes:
>
> If you were in Jane's shoes, and in the extremely unlikely event
> that the House of Justice told you to turn Mary's address over to
> the Bloomtown LSA, and you complied, and that action resulted in
> Mary's allegedly vicious husband finding her and killing her,
> would you consider her blood to be on your hands, the hands of the
> House, the hands of the husband, or all of the above?
>
Before answering the question, I want to ask one. Why was the Universal
House of Justice asked in the first place? As someone else has noted,
it may be better sometimes not to ask, but rather to struggle and work
it out for ourselves. Once you ask them, then you have to live with
the issues raised by their response.
There is a hidden assumption in the problem as stated. That is that
neither Jane nor Mary nor the LSA has any cleverness or subtlety.
It is certainly possible to think of ways to reveal Mary's address
without actually revealing where Mary can be found. Here is an example:
You say to Mary, "Please rent a room at 21 Maple St. for the date
of January 5th. You don't ever have to go there, just rent the room
for that day. On that day, Jan. 5th, I will inform the LSA that your
address is 21 Maple St. You, Mary, will actually live somewhere else,
but since you rented the room, it is literally true that 21 Maple St.
will be your address at the time I inform the LSA." You can probably
think of many other ways to accomplish this. I think the problem
is stated with an unfair condition, namely that none of the participants
is clever enough or subtle enough to obey the House of Justice
without putting Mary in danger. If you think about the problem, it is
possible to do that.
First, the husband is clearly directly responsible, no question about
that. There is a question about whether I or the House of Justice are
*indirectly* responsible for this tragedy. With regard to my
responsibility, it depends. If I obeyed the House blindly,
without thinking, as a robot, then yes I would be indirectly to blame.
I agree completely with those who say obedience to the Covenant
never absolves us of moral responsibility for our own actions.
But if I obeyed the House of Justice faithfully, I might have said to them,
"In my opinion, revealing Mary's address will put her life in real
and grave danger from her husband. In view of this do you still want
me to reveal her address to the LSA?" If, after hearing this, the House
still told me to reveal where Mary could be found, then the right thing to do
would be clear: obey the House of Justice. I don't know if I actually
would obey in that case, but I hope I would never claim disobedience
was justified.
This is a very significant difference. To disobey the Universal
House of Justice because of weakness or fear or laziness or stupidity
......that is one thing; I do that frequently. But to claim that
I have the *right* to disobey the divinely guided House of Justice,
to claim that there is any justification for my disobedience of
the "truth and the purpose of God Himself".... that is not just
immoral, it is illogical and silly. I would have to be very foolish
indeed to believe, on the one hand, that the decisions of the House
are unerring guidance from God, and on the other hand believe that
I ever have the *right* or justification to disobey that institution.
Those two beliefs, like fire and water, cannot exist together
in one heart or one mind.
With regard to the responsibility of the House of Justice; my
understanding is they are never responsible for anything evil.
After all, no one forced that husband to commit murder; he had
the choice to act with decency or brutality. It is true that
the decisions of the Universal House of Justice may cause hardship
in individual cases. This does not mean the decisions are bad
nor even unwise.
Tim Nolan
=END=
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:09:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: attention sbeding@govt.nt.ca statement on homosexuality
Earlier tonight i noticed someone (sorry i do not know who anymore) had
asked for the statement on homosexualiy. i forwarded it to you and deleted
your message. Well, the mail came back, i think i may have missed a letter
or something in your address. If you have not received the statement from
someone else already, just write back to me and i will forward it to you.
thank you Regards,
Cheshmak
=END=
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:20:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: talisman
Subject: History according to student bloopers
Response has been encouraging, so I guess it is time to share a sense of
history with my Talisman friends. Please read the following closely: wait
until you see the quiz! ;^)
PS- as a local Promoter of Levity, I send out selected Internet humor
gems to a growing mailing list. Let me know if you want your name added
to the list...
-Jonah
The World According to Student Bloopers
Richard Lederer
St. Paul's School
The inhabitants of Egypt were called mummies. They lived in the Sarah
Dessert and traveled by Camelot. The climate of the Sarah is such that the
tivated by irritation. The Egyptians built the Pyramids in the shape of a huge
triangular cube. The Pramids are a range of mountains between France and
Spain.
The Bible is full of interesting caricatures. In the first book of the
Bible, Guinesses, Adam and Eve were created from an apple tree. One of their
children, Cain, asked "Am I my brother's son?" God asked Abraham to sacrifice
Issac on Mount Montezuma. Jacob, son of Issac, stole his brother's birthmark.
Jacob was a partiarch who brought up his twelve sons to be partiarchs, but they
did not take to it. One of Jacob's sons, Joseph, gave refuse to the Israelites
=END=
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 22:42:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: U.S. Supreme Court, faithful vs. blind
Dear Juan, Tony and All
1. Juan made the analogy between the U.S. Supreme Court
and the UHJ. I think while there may be similarities, there
are vast differences. Where is the shift in paradigm if
we equate the two?
2. Tony asked about the difference between faithful and
blind obedience. As I see it, blind obedience is following
an order without reflection or question. Faithful obedience is
following an order with reflection and possible question - that
is, one accepts the "goodness" of the order but continues to
search for its wisdom.
One natural question may be: what if one does not see the
wisdom of a decision - even after a lengthy effort - and in fact
sees something wrong with the decision?
If I find the answer I will let you know - in the meantime,
reading the Fire Tablet can not hurt.
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:32:48 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Ken Seidenman)
Subject: Re:Homosexuality and Biology cont...
Dear Sen you wrote:
>However social species, including our own, also need to
>have a social logic of continuity analogous to the
>biological/reproductive logic of survival. Could
>homosexuality not be a natural mechanism which ensures
>the continuity of the social group?
I think this is a formal possibility, but if it's truly advantageous for
the continuity of the social group, why isn't it much more widespread than
seems to be the case?
> There are societies in which young men in families without daughters are
>trained
>to act and function as women, because this partially
>satisfies a need in regard to family balance and continuity.
Do these men tend to be homosexual? Is it accepted, within these
societies, that these young men will also function sexually as women?
>I recall one rat study which found that the incidence of
>homosexuality rose when a rat society was stressed.
A rat society!? In this study, were the rats given a "choice" between male
and female, or were all the stressed out rats of the same sex? If they
were given a choice, please give me the reference, because it would be the
first time I've heard of "homosexual" rats in that context.
>Might there not be a degree of genetic potential homosexuality in
>human beings which is actuated, to produce more actually
>homosexual persons, in a society in which the levels of
>agressiveness are unhealthy, population density is excessive,
>etc?
I doubt it, since the human genome was pretty much the same as it is now at
a time (let's say 25,000 years ago) when the human population was no where
near "excessive density". There would have been no selection pressure for
reproductive restraint.
It should be noted that in natural-selective terms, it would be a losing
proposition to maintain "homosexual potential" (i.e. generating offspring
that wouldn't reproduce) UNLESS there is some net selective advantage of a
"heterozygous" maintenance of that trait in the population. The classic
case is sickle cell anemia, where heterozygotes have one functional and one
defective hemoglobin gene; a combination which confers resistance to what
was undoubtedly a very serious health threat: malaria, without causing
sickle cell anemia. Unfortunately, those unlucky offspring (1/4) who got
two defective hemoglobin genes (i.e. they are homozygous for defective
hemoglobin) would die. The natural-selective calculus is still in favor of
maintaining this homozygous-lethal gene since not having it would mean
succumbing (4/4 times possibly) to malaria. The question then, is what
might the heterozygous "carrier" advantage be for "homosexual potential"?
In the spirit of consultation,
Ken
Kenneth J. Seidenman
Department of Neurobiology & Physiology
Northwestern University
kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Law, Kohlberg, esot.
To: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 11:44:12 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Terry and Dann:
According to dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com:
>
>
> Dear Terry, I would agree with both points. The Bahai Faith does seem to be
> making a greater place for the esoteric dimension.
Greater place than what? Since my affiliation is with esoteric
groups and not with mainstream religions, I hope I can
recognize what is and is not hospitable territory for
esotericism. Baha'i may in the future open up in this
dimension, and there may be elements in the writings that would
nurture such a development. But if we define, for the sake of
argument, legalism and esotericism as polar opposites, Baha'i
is clearly way out on the legalistic end of the scale. It is
all about internal vs. external locus of control.
Quick and dirty definitions, subject to challenge: legalism in
religion is characterized by a) defining the divine, the
sacred, the deity(ies) as a source of detailed laws governing
human behavior and b) centering one's definition of religious
obligation around obedience to such detailed laws and the
institutions that uphold them. Whereas esotericism defines the
sacred or the divine as accessible to the individual without
mediation from social or religious institutions, and defines
spiritual obligation in terms of obedience to/harmony with
one's own individual access to divine truth/wisdom/love.
Furthermore, Gilligan's
> work on moral development may be a much better place to center this
> discussion.
Please offer details. Kohlberg is no idol for me, but I would
suggest that the direction of evolution appears to be away
from, rather than toward, the kind of totalistic authority
structure found in Baha'i. One could argue this from a variety
of points, Theosophical of course but on a more mainstream
basis Berger's heretical imperative or Jung's individuation
suggest the same conclusion.
=END=
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 22:23:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Salmani's memories
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Back on Talisman again and wouldn't you know it, Salmani's book
is back again ...
Juan wrote:
> For instance, if the House ordered me to delete a passage from a primary
> source readied for publication, I could not in good conscience do so
> unless it was a matter of life and death. In 1982 the House ordered
> passages excised from Salmani's *My Memories of Baha'u'llah*, apparently
> on grounds that those passages did not reflect well on the Faith (Salmani
> teased Azal by putting onions in his food, e.g.). In this instance, you
> have three imperatives in play: 1) there is a presumption that a Baha'i
> will try to obey the House; 2) there is the House's own concern with the
> image of the Faith; and 3) there is the issue of the reporting
> of the truth to which a historian such as myself is sworn. Here I have
> no choice but to go with 3), or otherwise I would be betraying my own
> most deeply-held values and would be reduced to a guilty hypocrite. I
> recognize that as a professional historian at a public university I have
> obligations that the House does not necessarily share.
Firstly, I'm not sure why Juan's "most deeply-held values" is being
compromised on a Kalimat Press project which apparently had nothing
to do with Juan, unless as the Persians say, there is bowl under a
half-bowl ;-} Why is he outraged?? If anything, Marzieh Gail, as
the book's translator, should have raised concerns and to my
knowledge she did no such thing.
Secondly, what the House instructed was perfectly reasonable. They
did not order *destructions* of these few sentences; the House
simply asked that a few passages be left out from the English
printing. By analogy, Shoghi Effendi left out passages of Nabil's
narrative, or only partially quoted Tablets in the Gleanings (only
one Tablet quoted in full). So, why all the fuss about leaving out
a few passages in Salmani's narrative in English version?
Thirdly, this project was *not* some university project which
"partial" publication of the manuscript would have reflected badly
on Prof Cole; it was a publication activity of a Baha'i Publishing
house, namely, Kalimat Press, and rightly the House, as the Head of
the Faith, was concern with the image of the Faith.
I think the remarkable thing in this entire episode was the
gracious way in which the House of Justice decided to look the
other way when the editors of Kalimat Press ignored most of the
House's explicit instructions for editing of this book by
"creatively interpreting" them.
So, my dear Juan, the problem with such stories are that they are
two-edged swords ;-}
regards, ahang.
ps. One last note on Salmani. I'm well familiar with the original
version (in Persian) and actually am puzzled why would anyone want
to print this narrative. Balyuzi had used all the relevant
information from it and the original text is of very limited
interest. On the other hand, Salmani's poetry is absolutely
magnificent and why it has not received greater (any?) attention is
yet another puzzle I can't fathom.
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 01:48:30 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Inter-faith dialogue
Dear Friends ,
I have returned from a nearly four hour conversation with a Conservative
Rabbi and Regional Director of the Anti -Defamation league . Here I am with
my oatmeal ,walnut raisin cookie and cup of tea pondering the significance of
our conversation .
My part early on in the conversation was to dispel their sense that Baha
i's were well meaning but had an essentially sectarian approach to the world
. I found myself defending the Faith of Baha u llah from critiques based on
various exclusivist or triumphalist perspectives they have heard from Baha is
. That was the sad part ! This is not an intellectual argument this is
real people speaking of and about real human beings and the efffects
religious perspectives have on real human beings .
Some of the questions raised were ones that have appeared on Talisman ,
seperation of church and state and whether if Bahais believe that their
administrative institutions are destined to "rule " is this not hypocritical
while at the same time talking about unity of religion ? What is the
difference between Christian triumphalism and that of Bahais ? What do you
mean when you claim your institutions are divine in origin ? This one they
found particularly chilling . Does divine in origin apply to all religious
communities or just yours ? Why is your claim to divine origin different or
bettter than that asserted by other human groups throughout history? and what
is to,prevent that from degenerating into a self rightous pogrom other than
your mere assertion that it wont happen? Or is it that you believe God is on
your side and the paricular forms of your community are therefore ordained by
God ? Does this apply to other religious communities or just your own ? What
about abrogation and the assumption Bahais possess "The Truth" of which
others are bereft or at least a better truth ? How does this square with
unity ?
As you can see it was an exhilarating evening . I told them they ought
to subscribe to Talisman . I might add I did not try to defend any of these
positions .
I find it fascinating that people who have had little contact with Baha
is but who have read some have come away with the aforementioned perception
of the "meaning" of the Faith of Baha ullah . I would like to think these
people came away with a different sense of what it means to be a Bahai .
These are folks who we are in the process of engaging in interfaith
worship services so I got to put in my plug for the Mashriq u l Adhkar as the
spiritual center of Bahai community and daily morning prayer as the central
ritual of community anf how spirituality radiates out from this central
shrine to encompass all of ones life . This was the really fun part . And
yes they wondered if spirituality was in distinction to social action and my
reply was of course not in the context of the Mashriq for it is an
institution devoted to the translation of worship into active service to
human kind . I qouted Abdul Baha on the radiant hearts being the Mashriq .
Lets see we spoke of mystical things and the midrash and Rabbinic
tradition and thank godness for "standpoint epistemology" and Juans
translation of the Surah of the Sun . They described the Jewish P`shat,
D`rash and Sod ( long 0 ) . That is the literal meaning , the meaning of the
thematic narrative and the secret or hidden meaning . This was my in to
address many of their perceptions of the Faith , some see the literal meaning
only and think Husayn Ali was BAHAULLAH incarnate , some see the themes of
his life and work as well and tryt to apply them to current life and some see
the hidden or esoteric meanings as well . So not to worry or worry as the
case may be( this brought laughter ) Bahais are not a whole lot different
than other religious communities. In the course of this particular discussion
we touched on the meaning is in the spaces between the letters and the words
and the role of the prophets is to release that meaning . And I was able to
touch on one of my favorites of Baha u llahs from Epistle "ye are the letters
of the words and the words of the Book .
We also had a marvelous discussion on education , knowledge scholars and
teachers and the great worth of such souls in a community. Which led to a
discussion of interpretation and its boundaries in the Bahai community .
Interesting stuff listening to the perspectives of another tradition .
I will close this with a practical result . We are of course going to
continue our dialogue and worship activity and the local Bahai community now
has a source for reasonably priced hard wood coffins for burial . We just
made a deal to allow Bahais to purchase them from the local jewish Burial
service . So who says dialogue cant result in commerce and practical but
meaningful results. Oh and we did discuss our similiar viewpoints on burial
practices . Enough for now . I hope this weekend to put together the manner
in which I dealt with the questions that were asked . My replys relied
heavily on the Tablet of All Food and Abdul Baha's Commentary on I Was A
Hidden Treasure .
In case anyone wondered I did assert Bahau llah was a firm supporter of
constitutional democracy . :)
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: 13 Dec 95 23:51:43 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: Homosexuality and Biology
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Reply to: Homosexuality and Biology
Ken asked, " what might the heterozygous "carrier" advantage be for "homosexual
potential"?" a very interesting question... I'd like to share the following in
reply tho first:
Homosexuality as it presents itself in our society is a phenomenon unique to
our society. It is not the same as the homosexuality of Ancient Greece (or the
late 19th Century Middle East - plagiarizer's note here ) , for instance.
Thus simply, to think that one can set up an isomorphisim between one or more
genes and those features and activities which we today label "homosexual" is
both naive and doomed to failure. Such an effort assumes bad biology, bad
psychology, and bad history. Yet, having said this much, there are threads
linking homosexuals. Culture may be crucial for homosexual identity. It is a
lot less obvious that it is crucial for homosexual orientation. There is good
reason to think that this is a transcultural phenomenon, and as such ( at
least) plausibly a candidate for a biological explanation.
Found in _Homosexuality: a philosophical inquiry_ by Michael Ruse (1988) New
York: Basil Blackwell, Inc. p. 138.
This book is highly regarded, and comes with a large number of respected
recommendations. A very detailed examination and thorough discussion can be
found in this resource. It represents hundreds of sound works in the field,
that I wish our friends in the head shed had read , and why I am deeply
concerned for us.
To answer Kens' question: the answer lies in society's needs for creativity and
spirituality not just in procreation ...... Daniel
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 03:05:28 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Law,Kohlberg esot..
Dear Paul ,
Since it is late i will confine myself to a few short remarks though
i would be happy to continue this another time .
I understand the polarity you set up between legalism and esotericism
. It may be a useful analytic distinction a la Weber and ideal types but i
don t think it is descriptive of what Baha u llah is about. Therefore i will
not base my position on that distinction . I am willing to concede that a
good deal of religious history is built around these poles . It seems to me
exactly this point that Baha u llah is attempting to eliminate .
I am a Bahai and a mystical one at that . this means i do not
understand the meaning of the religious community centered around Baha u llah
to be one built on legalism . I may be an aberration but a Bahai none the
less . There are significant elements of the Faith of Baha u lah that are
hospitable to esoteric dimensions of life . I would argue that the inner or
batin dimension of Baha u lah or what i referred to as the *Remembrance * of
the Merciful is at the heart of this Faith. Do I think the Bahai community as
a whole sees this dimension fully . No . But then i dont regard the community
as synonomous with the Faith of Bahau llah .
If legalism is a conception of religion as " a source of detailed laws
governing human behavior and (b) centering ones definition of religious
obligation around obediance to detailed laws and the institutions that uphold
them ." I can only say that this is a curious version of the Faith of Baha u
llah . Where are these detailed laws ? The Kitabi Aqdas has a mere handful .
If we mean ethical prescriptions we could make a case that there is a great
deal of comment on ethical action in Baha u llah's Faith . So it seems to me
the first part of the definition is inapplicable . If by contrast we mean no
laws at all then the esoteric becomes reduced to some new age form of mental
masterbation in my view . A source of ,personal pleasure perhaps but not
productive of much else . If thw first part of the legalism definiton does
not hold the second becomes suspect . No detailed laws no centered
obligation to tie identity to institutions that uphold them . If we mean
legalistic to be the presence of institutions per se then we need to jettison
any governing forms in religious or political communities all together . This
would leave the othher end of the pole as anarchism equals the esoteric . Now
I believe the Faith of Baha u llah is a spiritual democracy , my Irfan
republic this does not mean I equate the presence of institutions in human
life with legalism. As a practical matter there is the issue of children .
If esotericism defines the sacred as " accessible to the individual
without mediation from social or religious institutions ... " where is the
Faith of Baha u llah fall off the esoteric pole . This is a religious
community without clergy - spiritual democracy - the Administrative
institutions do not provise me access to or deny me access to that is mediate
my relationship to God. each od us must come to our individual understanding
of that relationship . In fact Baha u llah and Abdul Baha it seems to me go
to great lengths tp pont this out . Do you mean institutions as symbolic
presence or structured sacred space are anti thetical to the esoteric ? If so
them, virtually every religious commmunity in human history becomes non
esoteric by definition . Institutions facilitate the emregence of an
awareness of the Presence of Being in the world and within ourselves . In the
case of the Faith of Baha u llah my argument is tha the Mashriq u l Adhkar
is intended to do just that so that each day and each generatiuon is not
reinventing the wheel spiritually . It also is intended to translate that
sense of the sacred , worship into service to humanity . The administrative
inistitutions are meant to protect and safeguard that process; the
realization of the inner and outer reality of what Abdul Baha describes with
reference to the lovers of Beauty as " . .he is the dawning place ( mashriq
) of the manifestations of all the Names and Attributes, one of the Divine
Names is manifested most strongly and apears most intensely in each person .
Thus his being originates from this Name and returns unto it ." The role of
administrative institutions is to protect this process of "recognition" and "
observance". It has profound ethical implications . This is my spiritual
democracy . The Mashriqu l Adhkar has a role in engendering this
*remembering* and providing a forum in which it can be experienced and
translated into action . As an esoteric i am sure you are aware of the role
community celebration of the sacred plays in fostering this reality . And it
celebration that Baha u llah speake of in the context of Mashriq.
I have before commented on the reasons I believe the American Bahai
community has taken the administration as an end in itself route .
My general conclusion is that Bahau llah is challenging both to Bahais
and those of other traditions precisely because he is attempting to break
down the divisions betwen the poles you mentioned . I will close for now
but will pursue this further if you wish .
" At one time We spoke in the language of the lawgiver ; at another in
that of the truth seeker and mystic, and yet Our supreme purpose and highest
wish hath always been to disclose the glory and sublimity of this station ."
Baha u llah on Unity human and divine . There is another pole here if you
will that embraces and includes the law and the mystic lover and yet
transcends them both .It is the City of Unity ; the beautific vision realized
or as Abdul Baha might say 'witnessing' the station of the "Essence
witnessing the Beauty of its Essence within its Essence. " And it "desires"
to be "known" in this plane as well .
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:18:44 +1300 (NZDT)
To: Member1700@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Polygamy & the Baha'i community
Tony wrote:
> Also, I have seen instances in Africa were even active Baha'is, finding
>the need to take a second wife (say, because of the serility of the first
>wife) in accordance with the customs of their culture, have done so.
"Serility": now there's a word! Sterility perhaps. Or senility. If it is
the second case, then maybe the Baha'i should have married a younger woman.
Not that I'm ageist.....regardless of what Sonja thinks... ;-}
Robert.
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:30:18 +1300 (NZDT)
To: "Eric D. Pierce" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: conscience and obedience (back to Appleville and Bloomtown)
Dear Eric,
You wrote:
>
>Lacking much interest in the predictable and tedious theoretical
>aspects of this discussion, I would like to ask Tim, Rick, Robert, Mark:
>
> If you were in Jane's shoes, and in the extremely unlikely event
> that the House of Justice told you to turn Mary's address over to
> the Bloomtown LSA, and you complied, and that action resulted in
> Mary's allegedly vicious husband finding her and killing her,
> would you consider her blood to be on your hands, the hands of the
> House, the hands of the husband, or all of the above?
No, no, probably, no. And you? (Play fair now!)
Robert..
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:47:56 +1300 (NZDT)
To: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden), talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: prayer
Dear Bev,
I think we are in general agreement, and especially as the Faith
emphasises the need for deeds to match words, the value you give work seems
a good tonic to one as wordy as me. However, I cannot match your optimism
concerning the value of the works of those outside the Faith. That is not
to say that because I am a Baha'i my trivial and worthless deeds have a
higher value in the sight of God than the deeds of a non-Baha'i dung
collecter in the wastes of Africa. It is to say, rather, that the Faith
alone is the shelter of beseiged humanity, and that only when humanity
consciously recognises this fact and makes it the foundation stone of its
collective life will it be on the path to that which is genuinely wonderful
in this day and age.
Best wishes,
Robert.
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:09:45 +1300 (NZDT)
To: "Ahang Rabbani" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Salmani's memories
ffolks,
Juan writes that he would go against a House decision in a particular
literary instance "otherwise I would be betraying my own
>> most deeply-held values and would be reduced to a guilty hypocrite. I
>> recognize that as a professional historian at a public university I have
>> obligations that the House does not necessarily share."
Sure. Why not? Go ahead. But why make such a fuss about it? Especially
in the presence of lesser mortals who put obedience to the House above all
else, even as they struggle to obey...
If Juan's conscience dictates such a response then it certainly is none of
my business. It is between himself and the House, and himself and God. I
certainly am not burdened with the extreme weight of a "professional"
historian's reponsibilities (and nor was Shoghi Effendi) so I simply cannot
comprehend the moral dilemmas such persons face nor the wonderous
supernatural confidences they must be party to as they struggle with
them...
From my rather dim reading of the Writings, however, I would not advise
such a course of action, if he asked me. Which he won't ;-}. Thank
goodness.
Robert.
PS
Nice to see you Ahang!
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: conscience, polygamy, homosexuality
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 16:40:05 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu:
> inferior condition of women, etc. Now, the basis of the argument that the
> position on homosexuality could be changed is that there is scientific
evidence
> to suggest that a person is essentially born a homosexual. He or she fits
into
> a particular category by virtue of his genetic makeup. There is an increasing
> amount of scientific evidence to show that this is true. To talk about
> homosexuals then as perverted, abnormal, unnatural beings is to exclude them
> from full participation in the community. I, at least, see a distinction
here.
> I don't know about others. Linda
>
The emergence of scientific evidence for genetic factors in
homosexuality is only the latest round of relevant information
that should indicate that Shoghi Effendi was wrong on
this subject. The clinical experience of a great many
professionals for generations now has led to a widespread
consensus internationally to the effect that homosexuality is
not a disease, is not abnormal, and cannot be "cured." More
than 20 years after the AMA, APAs (psychological and
psychiatric) and their equivalents in other countries have
concluded this, the House is still advising gay Baha'is to seek
a cure. Maybe they can find the occasional wild card doctor or
therapist who believes in curing homosexuality-- but chances
are they will be much the worse for their encounter with such
quacks. Any mainstream therapist or physician will tell them
what one told me twenty years ago in essence: "the problem
isn't you, it's your religion."
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 00:42:59 -0800
To: "Dan Orey" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: Safa Sadeghpour
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Biology
At 11:51 PM 12/13/95 U, Dan Orey wrote:
> Reply to: Homosexuality and Biology
>Ken asked, " what might the heterozygous "carrier" advantage be for "homosexual
>potential"?" a very interesting question... I'd like to share the following in
>reply tho first:
>
>To answer Kens' question: the answer lies in society's needs for creativity and
>spirituality not just in procreation ...... Daniel
>
>
Salutations,
Ken's question is quite legitimate. If it is to be accepted that
homosexuality (as a
sexual phenomenon) has *some* genetic influence then this influence has
to be fitted under some Darwinian logic. Under the Darwinian paradigm
the fittest of genes survive, that is, those genes that cause some sort
of advantage when compared with the phenotypes of other genes will tend
to spread themselves in the species. So, genes for stronger muscles,
for instance, might be favored in an heavy-labor
environment since these would permit the individual that possesses them
to survive longer and procreate.
This has little, if anything, to do with what "society's needs" are. The
question
of the procreativity value of the homosexuality gene is biological, and
not sociological in origin. For some phenotype, in this case homosexuality,
to have
an accepted genetic origin a reasonable explanation must be provided
for the value of this gene in the procreation process, and so, in the
transfer of the genetic
material.
Actually, the homosexuality gene, if any such gene or combination of
genes even exists, not only does not have any procreativity value
for the male descendancy, but also it tends to have a destructive
effect (stopping or limiting the procreation of the male). But, this
is not enough to make it impossible for "gay genes" to
exist. Why is this so?
Let's naively assume that the male homosexuality gene (if it exists) does not
have any beneficiary or harmful effects to the survival of the carrier (a
female). This is not entirely naive since we might ask ourselves what
influence would
an inactive male homosexuality gene have in the reproductive cycle of
heterosexual
female. Thus, it seems that this assumption is, although simplistic, quite
well founded.
Under these conditions the presence or absence of this gene would follow
a random walk. It would become a totally probabilistic matter not depending
on its worthwhileness for future male generations. The transfer of
the gene would occur at fertilization, and therefore any procreation-value
that it might have for future male generations does not play a role in its
immanence.
Therefore, the gene might exist not only when it does not provide any
particular benefit to the male descendant, but also in cases where it might
be perjudicial to the survival of his descendancy, which in this case it is.
It is also under this framework that destructive genetic disorders are passed
from generation to generation without them having any intrinsic benefit
to the procreator, and in most cases, having a damaging effect on the
receiving end.
Hence, a particular gene that provides no particular benefit may remain in
the species if it
does not cause any peculiar damage to procreator before the transfer of the
genetic
material.
Of course, a gene that has an actual positive procreativity value for the
heterosexual
carrier would tend to spread itself quite fast, and become a big percentage
of the
population. But this is exactly opposite to what we see in the case of
homosexuality
and this might by itself be a proof of the non-procreativity-value of this
gene, and
the random walk it follows through the narrow alleys of human evolution.
Take care.
Safa
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"My goal is simple. It is complete understanding of the universe, why it as
it is and why it exists as all." - Stephen Hawking
"Truth decays into beauty, while beauty soon becomes merely charm. Charm
ends up as strangeness, and even that doesn't last, but up and down are
forever." - The Laws of Physics
"The shining spark of truth comes forth only from the clash of differing
opinions." Abdu'l-Baha
Safa Sadeghpour (think@ucla.edu)
http://www.smc.edu/homepage/maclab/maclab.web/web/safa.web/safa.htm
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 03:24:49 -0800
To: cybrmage@niia.net (Bud Polk), talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: White shoes, velcro closures
Dear Bud... How truely precious you are. I can see you are on the mend
when you can see in the future. The fact that you recognized a need to come
is a sure sign of recovery.
I had tears when I read this...
I, too have had to deal with depression somewhat to the point of not being
able to get out of bed for two or three days, but not to where anyone
diagnosed me as depressed. I have been able to realize something is wrong
and get out of the house and go do something. I have to pray every day
and work hard to keep my spirits up and going. And eat chocolate. Gads, if
it was not for chocolate, I'd be lost. And yes, I have a peaches and cream
complexion. You and your family are in my prayers, and we (here on
Talisman) hope this radical change in meds is what is needed to bring you
back to good health. I look forward to your postings. You have a wonderful
knack of writing.
God bless you,
Margreet
At 11:13 PM 12/11/95 +6.00, Bud Polk wrote:
>I walked onto the psych unit of a small community hospital in
>Michigan City, Indiana Thursday, November 30. The paint was
>peeling, the carpet needed cleaning and the furniture was broken
>down.
>
>I walked in wearing white shoes with velcro closures.
>
>I had my first episode of manic-depression at age 18. I have seen
>eight psychiatrists and about 20 mental health workers and have taken
>about 30 meds. I have never been correctly diagnosed or treated.
>Behind me lay broken marriages, failed careers and the death of hope
>and the waning of faith. I knew something was terribly wrong, but
>could not name it.
>
>My real treatment for manic-depression -- 27 years after its onset --
>began in a small hospital in a small Indiana city on that recent
>Thursday.
>
>I began a long slide this past June and was hospitalized for nine days
>in September, but it did little good. While I deteriorated, my wife
>Linda and I searched for a psychopharmacologist. We did not want me
>to return to the same hospital and the same psychiatrist who had been
>of so little help for five years.
>
>We found the psychopharmacologist and got a call Thursday morning that
>a bed was available in the afternoon. My parents rushed from nearby
>Chicago, my six-year-old son Rocky went to school, and then Linda went
>to work (we have to eat).
>
>I was ultra rapid cycling, having mixed states and beginning to have
>auditory and visual distortions. But I asked my mother to take me to
>K Mart to buy me a few things. During a suicide watch, under which I
>might have been, they take your shoelaces and belt, for fear, I
>suppose, that you might find an unobserved moment and a sturdy place
>from which to hang yourself. I did not want to face the indignities
>of flopping shoes and pants held up by one hand.
>
>K Mart had rows of gleaming white men's athletic shoes -- only $9.99
>-- each and every pair with laces. We asked the saleswoman were there
>any with velcro closures. She dug around and found three pair. One
>fit. Then we found pants with elastic waist bands, sweatshirts,
>deodorant -- all those things you need for a trip away from home.
>
>We returned home, I shoved everything into a summit pack and I lay
>trembling under several comforters. Rocky came home, we drove to
>Linda's work, and then to hospital. Linda and I walked in. I was
>wearing white shoes with velcro closures.
>
>We went through a quick admission. We kissed, held each other and
>cried. And then came the moment when spouse and friend, lover and
>beloved must separate and stand on the two sides of a chasm deeper and
>wider than the Grand Canyon.
>
>I was on a unit more "serious" than I had been before. No one had
>shoelaces or belts. People walked around in sock-things provided by
>the hospital while holding up their pants. But not me. There were
>group and individual therapy, arts and crafts, indifferent food, three
>cigarette breaks by which we smokers measured the passing of the days,
>psychotic outbursts and the tedium of routine.
>
>I had a radical readjustment in meds. My psychopharmacologist asked
>me the following Monday if I wanted to go home. I packed, got
>instructions on meds, filled out more forms and yet more forms, and
>waited. Linda and I shared supper and a session with the unit social
>worker. Then we came home.
>
>I was wearing wearing white shoes, velcro closures.
>
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 09:12:07 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: science and religion
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Stephen, I had not intended on posting today as I have so much work to do.
However, I cannot resist your posting.
Indeed, your mother's case does not strike me as unusual. Earlier on Talisman
we discussed the possible differences between male and female homosexuality.
Studies have shown that women are far more likely to "discover" homosexual
feelings later in life, after they have been married and have borne children.
I think that this needs to be explored further but, in a nutshell I do think
that there is far more likelihood that social factors play strongly into this
choice. If you talk to thereapists you find that many will say that women in
their middle years become so tired of being wives and taking care of husband
who are unresponsive to their emotional needs. They find that women are more
inclined to fulfill them emotionally. I doubt that sex is a real important
factor in this relationship. When other information is factored in, such as
data about women wanted to be "close and cuddled" by their mate rather than
engaging in the sex act, this seems to make sense. On the other hand, a male
homosexual is inclined to have a realization of his sexual orientation earlier
on. Again, this is a pretty off the cuff response to your well thought-out
posting on this subject but this is all I am able to do for the moment.
As for dismissing science as constantly changing, please consider the work of
biologists and biological anthropologists. We have been through this before,
but Darwin just keeps on coming out right. The core of his arguments are never
disproven, but constantly substantiated. Are we going to go around saying that
all this is just rubbish. That sooner or later scientists are going to
debunk Darwin? Please...Linda
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 19:41:03 PST
Subject: RE: polygamy smiggamy
To: Dan Orey , talisman@indiana.edu
On 13 Dec 95 14:47:25 U Dan Orey wrote:
> Reply to: polygamy smiggamy
Dear Dan, for what it's worth, I am so grateful that you continue
these postings.
I too take comfort from the the open minded and open hearted spirit I
find here on Talisman and do deeply hope that this is the Truer
manifestation of Bahai than what you've described on aol and what I
myself have seen among certain of the friends here locally.
Philip
-
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 12/13/95
Time: 19:41:05
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 09:44:43 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: just a couple more things
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Sen and Terry, thanks for wonderful postings today. Sen, for his explanation
of conscience and Terry for a wonderful argument for keeping the boundaries of
the Baha'i Faith permeable.
To those gentlemen who would feel that Jane's blood was not on their hands I
would like to say that, should anyone ever entrust his life to you, tell you
his or her deepest secrets, confide his worst faults, or whatever, please, tell
that person that you do not wish to hear such things. Only a friend who is
totally trustworthy, who would never reveal any such confidences to anyone
under any circumstances should be such a confidant. Mark, Eric's question was
not strange. Perhaps being a woman, my life experiences are very different
from yours. But I know what it is like to carry around the deepest, darkest
secrets of another person. And there is literally nothing that could get me to
talk. Trustworthiness is, to me, the most basic and most paramount virtue.
One should never betray a friend. If I had been the one to betray Jane's
trust, her blood would be on my hands. Linda
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 09:16:32 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: polygamy and polyandry
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Don, honestly, why does everyone have to pick my pet subjects to discuss
today?! Your posting is very interesting. And I agree with you. I too know
of cases where polygyny is appreciated by women. These usually in societies
where there is a great deal of sexual seclusion and where women do the bulk of
the work. In this case, the women are relieved to have companionship and help
with burdensome chores. I am completely aware of this. However, we are hoping
to envision a society where women are not excluded and not burdened with all of
the work, making these advantages for polygyny passe.
As for polyandry, there are very few societies that have opted for this. The
advantage is when land is very scarce and families want to keep property within
the family system. So, brothers marry one woman and it does not matter whose
children she is carrying. She will only be able to have a limited number of
children and they will inherit the property in spite of who fathered them.
Must go. Linda
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 19:47:53 PST
Subject: RE: Conscience Cooking
To: Rick Schaut , 748-9178@mcimail.com,
talisman@indiana.edu
On Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:33:23 -0800 Rick Schaut wrote:
>Dear Juan and Friends,
>
>I don't recall ever saying that one should not follow one's
>own conscience. However you choose to make your
>bed is no business of mine. I don't have to sleep
>in it.
>
>I just find myself unable to say that my conscience
>would prevail in any particular circumstance. Why?
>My conscience is not a static entity. It changes, and
>will change. I can only say that, faced with a conflict
>between my own values and a decision of the Universal
>House of Justice, I will spend a great deal of effort
>questioning the validity of my values relative to the
>Writings.
>
>This may be nothing more than a semantic difference.
>But a statement that one will always follow one's
>conscience implies that one is not open to this
>process of self-doubt--that one has shut the door to
>the idea of questioning one's own values. I think this
>stance is as morally wrong as the belief that one should
>always bow to authority regardless of the dictates of
>one's conscience.
>
>
>Warmest Regards,
>Rick Schaut
Dear Rick, this statement of yours certainly closes the gap for me
between our positions. I'd word it only slightly differently.
Like you, I would be profoundly uncomfortable to find myself in
disagreement with UHJ.
The question is then what? I think this is the crucible of moral
development. There are two ways to escape it. One is to die in the
pot and simply go with the authority of the House and the other is to
simply to insist on the correctness of own's own point of view and
jump out of the pot. The trick is to stay in the pot. That, of
course, is how one develops morally.
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 12/13/95
Time: 19:47:54
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 09:47:37 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Persian radio
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Last night, someone telephoned me to say that he heard my name mentioned on the
Persian radio station broadcast, I believe, from California. He did not hear
in what context it was mentioned.
Did anyone else hear this broadcast? If so, could you tell me what was said.
I would prefer hearing this from someone other than Burl and Derek as I am
looking for factual rather than fictitious information. Please forgive me,
guys. I just know you have slight propensity for the imaginative. Linda
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 09:24:50 PST
Subject: Re: conscience, polygamy, homosexuality
To: "K. Paul Johnson" , talisman@indiana.edu
On Wed, 13 Dec 95 16:40:05 EST K. Paul Johnson wrote:
>The emergence of scientific evidence for genetic factors in
>homosexuality is only the latest round of relevant information
>that should indicate that Shoghi Effendi was wrong on
>this subject. The clinical experience of a great many
>professionals for generations now has led to a widespread
>consensus internationally to the effect that homosexuality is
>not a disease, is not abnormal, and cannot be "cured." More
>than 20 years after the AMA, APAs (psychological and
>psychiatric) and their equivalents in other countries have
>concluded this, the House is still advising gay Baha'is to seek
>a cure. Maybe they can find the occasional wild card doctor or
>therapist who believes in curing homosexuality-- but chances
>are they will be much the worse for their encounter with such
>quacks. Any mainstream therapist or physician will tell them
>what one told me twenty years ago in essence: "the problem
>isn't you, it's your religion."
That's quite correct, K. Paul (May I call you "K. Paul").
In fact, the plot thicknes a bit around this. There is a therapist in
L.A. who does have a method for the "corrective therapy of male
homosexuals" and his method involves a deep exploration of the male
patient's relationship with his father and -- I think I remember this
right -- the development of a transference relationship which, when
it becomes eroticized -- which he claims it will with a male
therapist -- then allows for an investigation of the underpinning
issues. But the eroticized transference is interpretted as somehow
"not okay." and this would be different than an eroticized
transference in a more mainstream therapy.
Anyway, the man does have a following and some successful case
histories but there is also a movement afoot to bring mal-practice
charges against him and his work is quite controversial within the
field.
The last I'd heard, it was still "okay" to treat homosexuality as a
dysfunction if it were presented so. If someone goes to a therapist
and says "what's wrong with me is that I want to have sex with men
and I want to stop feeling that way," then it's not malpractice for a
therapist to undertake treatment under those conditions. Although any
good therapist would, I expect, first and always maintain a meta-view
of the presenting complaint. The presenting complaint being the key
to all the issues.
So, if a person says, fix me, I'm afraid I might be gay. The doctor
has to say, why is that a problem for you? Emphasis on "for you."
The doctor would be ill advised to simply assume that being gay is a
problem in its essence. Even if the therapist is Bahai or Christian
or of some other ideological stripe which teaches that being Gay is
an action against one's own deepest healthy nature (that is the
teaching after all) the therapist can't let that opinion guide
treatment. Not according to current guidelines. Even if the therapist
is of the deep personal conviction that being gay is an action
against etc, that conviction cannot guide treatment.
It is the discipline of therapy to refer back to the patient's own
inner guidance. That was the point of the official de-pathologizing
of homosexual behavior.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 12/14/95
Time: 09:24:51
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: just a couple more thing
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:52:52 -0600 (CST)
Linda Walbridge wrote to talisman@indiana.edu:
L>Mark, Eric's question was not strange. Perhaps being a woman, my life
L>experiences are very different from yours. But I know what it is like
L>to carry around the deepest, darkest secrets of another person. And
L>there is literally nothing that could get me to talk. Trustworthiness
L>is, to me, the most basic and most paramount virtue. One should never
L>betray a friend. If I had been the one to betray Jane's trust, her
L>blood would be on my hands.
Hi, Linda -
I did not mean anything offensive when I said that Eric's question
was strange. I was merely surprised by it.
I believe that the Guardian, through his secretary, said that, if
requested by an administrative institution, one should not keep a secret
to protect someone, but, if not asked, that one did not need to divulge
it. Obviously, there is a place for *personal information*, especially
when it is a part of a private consultation. Revealing that information
would generally be inappropriate and would violate the confidence which
was placed in the individual. However, as I see it, the well-being of
the whole, as perceived by the Universal House of Justice, outweighs
issues of privacy. Since the Universal House of Justice is, in its
decisons, guided by the Bab and Baha'u'llah, if, after all parties have
had their say, it requests that someone takes a particular course of
action, I do not see how she or he could refuse.
Warm greetings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-)
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: "talisman@indiana.edu" ,
Dan Orey
Subject: RE: polygamy smiggamy
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:05:01 -0800
Dearest friends,
Do you all see what is going on here? A beautiful, struggling, and sincere
soul <> is being called a covenant breaker by fellow Baha'is
on America OnLine (AOL), a public forum accessible to 3.5 million
subscribers. A covenant breaker! How dare they do that? How dare anyone do
that this side of Haifa? I'd like to see outrage. I'd like to see shock. I'd
like to see compassion. And I'd like to see it stopped. Perhaps that's not
strong enough. I *demand* these expressions of support. Isn't this a
dangerous trend? Does it possibly foreshadow the growth of a fundamentalist
mentality, a sectarian attitude, and a threat to any misunderstood minority,
whether behavioral, biological, doctrinal, or any other? Since when does a
declaration of faith give anyone license to condemn anyone else especially
in such an ugly and damaging manner? Let's not have platitudes and smugness.
Let's expose the accusers so that they may become enlightened, chastised, or
just plain stopped.
And some of the locals in my area wonder why I'm afraid to get back into
community activity! I have the strength to change my life and correct a
profound birth defect but I wouldn't have the strength to be condemned by
people of the book. I would never be able to go on.
In sadness and frustration,
Hannah
PS, regarding the murdered women in rural Oregon: a suspect has been
arrested and is being extradited to Oregon at this time. Many women are
still afraid that they will be victims of further violence. On the Oregon
coast last week the home of a transsexual burned down. The deadly beat goes
on.
H.
===================================
"The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of
zeal, well-meaning but without understanding." -- Justice Louis Brandeis
"When even one American -- who has done nothing wrong -- is forced by fear
to shut his mind and close his mouth, then all Americans are in peril."
Harry Truman
Ethernet (n): something used to catch the etherbunny <>
----------
From: Dan Orey[SMTP:dan_orey@qmbridge.csus.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, 13 December, 1995 6:47 AM
To: snoopy@skipper.physics.sunysb.edu; talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: polygamy smiggamy
On the uglier side:
I am being accused of being a covenant breaker by some "well meaning"
friends
on AOL, simply because of my sexual orientation Thanks to my tutelage here
on
Talisman, I am able to refute this baseless and ill founded charge. This is
just the sort of thing that I feared, would begin with "the" letter. Too
many
gays and lesbians do not have a way to defend themselves from such "well
meaning" Baha'is, and I pray that folks will assist them as the pograms
begin.
Speaking of pograms. A gay Baha'i in the Houston area has been told by even
more well meaning friends to make a choice between being gay or Baha'i, he
has
been banned from all Baha'i activity. Is this what we are really about?
=END=
From: PayamA@aol.com
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:14:41 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Salmani's memories
Dear Ahang
Almost. . . . but not quite.
The House of Justice did not initialy ask for minor editing. They asked that
the publication be stopped. We were at that time at the printer. That is,
plates had been made, contracts signed and deposits paid. The National
Spiritual Assembly had approved its publication, so when the phone call to
stop came, we were caught off guard. After appealing the decision, we were
told that we could go ahead with the English translation if certain changes
were made. At that time a single word changed on a page meant a new plate so
we worked with the NSA and the House to minimise the changes. It is unfair
to say we ignored the wishes of the House in this matter, since we could have
said it was too late and the books had already been printed, and made no
changes at all. The Persian edition, however, had not gone to press so we
pulled it from our publishing schedule. The whole book (including the
poetry) had been hand written in beautiful caligraphy, so this cost had to be
absorbed.
I'm sorry I don't share your opinion that there is nothing worth while in
Salmani other than what had been previously excerpted. I hope one day we
will be allowed to complete this publishing project. By the way, since the
this publication was seen as a potential problem to the community, does
anyone know of any negative reaction to it since it first came out in 1982?
Payam
=END=
Subject: Polygamy & "Homogamy" (not smiggamy...)
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:15:47 -0500 (EST)
From: "Donald Zhang Osborn"
Allah'u'Abha! Thanks to those who have helped clarify how polygamous
marriages are dealt with in the Baha'i Faith (and for related interesting
info. & diverse viewpoints...great education).
Since it was I who brought the issue up in the first place, let me try to
bring it around full circle. I have heard that in a Scandinavian country
(Denmark, I believe), the law now recognizes marriage between two people
of the same sex. If a homosexual couple, so legally married, declared
their belief in Baha'u'llah, how would their case be handled by their
Baha'i community? Although the cases of polygamy and homosexual couples
are in many ways different, does how the former is handled give any
insight as to how the latter should be handled?
Don Osborn osborndo@pilot.msu.edu
P.S.- The laws and customs in Scandinavia seem quite liberal. There was a
case of a Swedish man who married two Zambian women according to Zambian
law. When he returned to Sweden with his family he had to push to get his
polygynous marriage legally recognized, but succeeded nonetheless (I don't
know how US law would handle such a situation).
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 09:47:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: LAW, KOHLBERG, ESOT.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Paul,
As a philosopher with an existential twist, I am always a bit skeptical of
basing arguments solely on the basis of rather simplistic definitions,
especially if those definitions are made part of a polarized hierarchy.
Such hierarchies often turn "violent" -- that is, one of the two poles is
seen as dominant, better or preferred, while the other is often seen as
inferior or worthy of suppression or even destruction.
Frithjof Schuon argues in _The Transcendental Unity of Religions_ that the
esoteric and exoteric dimensions are found within every religious
tradition. Granted some religions emphasize the exoteric over the esoteric,
while others seem to emphasize the esoteric over the exoteric.
For those unfamiliar with Schuon's work, here is a brief summary: Schuon
identifies the esoteric dimension as the inherently more mystical of the
two, since it is generally characterized by a monistic realization of an
inclusive, absolute, undifferentiated unity or supreme identity that can
only be spoken of through symbols and myths, allegories and metaphors.
Accordingly, it is at the esoteric level that the concept of the unity of
religions is most often realized. According to Schuon, while this
realization is potentially available in any tradition or culture, only a
small minority of people in any given tradition ever achieve it. In
contrast, the exoteric dimension is concerned with doctrines and dogmas,
devotion to forms and ceremonies, and concerned with logical proofs and
concrete images. The exoteric level is usually characterized by a
monotheistic or dualistic exclusivism that recognizes, as correct, one
concrete form or expression over others. At the exoteric level, for
example, Islam is proclaimed to be the only true religion. It is at this
level that the world's religions are perceived to be both bewilderingly
diverse and mutually exclusive.
Schuon sees the esoteric and exoteric dimensions as embodied in two
distinct personality types found within all religious traditions, with the
majority of religious adherents being exoteric. This is very similar to the
philosopher of religion T. Patrick Burke's discussion of the "popular" or
"devotional" (exoteric) and "reflective" (esoteric) aspects of religion.
Like Schuon, Burke argues that the reflective (esoteric) personality type
has more in common with its counter parts in other religious traditions
than it shared commonality with those within its own tradition. The same is
true for the devotional (exoteric) personality. In other words, these
distinctions cut across religions traditions. Both Schuon and Burke argue
that both dimensions are essential or needed elements within each religious
tradition. The esoteric side keeps alive the sense of mystery and provides
a questioning dynamic that gives life to a religious tradition. The
exoteric side provides stability, security and a sense of direction.
Furthermore, all esoterics were once exoterics. The esoterics, with their
questions and more mystical orientation keep the exoterics "stirred up" and
engaged in the dynamic life of spirituality. The exoterics remind the
esoterics of their spiritual roots and the importance of the community.
Perhaps we can think of these two dimensions less as polar opposites and
more in terms of elements of a dynamic interaction similar to the Chinese
concept of the yin and yang forces, or in Tantric terms, the male and
female energies needed for life to continue in all its dynamic diversity.
Given this brief excursion into the work of Schuon, the Baha'i Faith like
any other religious tradition, contains both dimensions. While for some, it
is tempting to characterized the Baha'i faith as more exoteric or
legalistic, I would argue that this has more to do with Western practice.
As a Baha'i from a Jewish background once put it to me, "the Baha'i Faith
in America is a white Protestant religion." If we turn to the writings,
however, we find abundant instances of the esoteric dimension. In fact,
Baha'u'llah even encourages us to take a more esoteric perspective.
Certainly the mere existence of the _Kitab-i-Iqan_ or _Seven Valleys_
serves as a testimony to this point. I have often thought that the Baha'i
Faith is an attempt to mainline the esoteric dimension, that is, to
incorporate the esoteric perspective into the community at large, and not
merely keeping it the realm of a few elite practioners. For instance, the
unity of religion doctrine in all its complexity and associated concepts (a
more esoteric perspective) is a fundamental Bahai teaching, and is one that
every Bahai accepts, no matter how simplistically conceived.
On the other hand, even so-called esoteric practices have their legalistic
side. Zen Buddhism, Adviata Hinduism, and Sufism while clearly more
mystical in their orientations, embody a disciplined life often governed by
a code of conduct or a rigid ceremonial practice, or certain acceptable or
traditional practices. Furthermore, I have met, in my time, rather dogmatic
and rigid Sufis, Zen Buddhists, and Hindus who held rather exclusivistic
views.
But if we define, for the sake of
P >argument, legalism and esotericism as polar opposites, Baha'i
P >is clearly way out on the legalistic end of the scale. It is
P >all about internal vs. external locus of control.
P >Quick and dirty definitions, subject to challenge: legalism in
P >religion is characterized by a) defining the divine, the
P >sacred, the deity(ies) as a source of detailed laws governing
P >human behavior and b) centering one's definition of religious
P >obligation around obedience to such detailed laws and the
P >institutions that uphold them. Whereas esotericism defines the
P >sacred or the divine as accessible to the individual without
P >mediation from social or religious institutions, and defines
P >spiritual obligation in terms of obedience to/harmony with
P >one's own individual access to divine truth/wisdom/love.
I find it interesting that all the people you mention are male (Berger,
Jung, Kohlberg). Research on learning styles and brain functioning between
males and females suggests that men tend to construct abstract hierarchies
centered on the individual (Kohlberg's work certainly falls into this, as
Gilligan points out). Women on the other hand, usually construct relational
systems which center not on the individual but on the community. For
example, in the field of business ethics (which I teach) men are more
likely to engage in the construction of ethical codes of conduct and they
usually do this without consulting other people in the work force. Women
usually seek much greater input when attempting to deal with the question
of ethics and their approach to ethics are usually much less legalistic.
P > Furthermore, Gilligan's
> work on moral development may be a much better place to center this
> discussion.
P >Please offer details. Kohlberg is no idol for me, but I would
P >suggest that the direction of evolution appears to be away
P >from, rather than toward, the kind of totalistic authority
P >structure found in Baha'i. One could argue this from a variety
P >of points, Theosophical of course but on a more mainstream
P >basis Berger's heretical imperative or Jung's individuation
P >suggest the same conclusion.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * The path to holiness lies in questioning everything.-Peck
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: "talisman@indiana.edu" ,
"kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu"
Subject: RE: Homosexuality and Biology cont...
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:41:05 -0800
I'm learning a great deal about gender issues recently out of necessity of
course. Regrettably, the largest body of information is about western
societies. Two categories of persons are generally classified as physically
appearing to be the opposite of their biologically assigned gender role.
Transsexuals are those persons who are unable to adapt biologically to their
birth gender. They have a lifelong identification with the opposite gender.
Typically they desire surgical means to correct their dysphoria. There is
some emerging evidence (MRI, autopsy, etc.) that points to prenatal hormonal
imbalances that may cause this condition. Regardless of cause, it is
incurable. The few that I have met personally are heterosexual. Some remain
married after their sexual reassignment surgery (SRS). Even long-term
hormonal treatment such as I'm starting in January does not alter their
original sexual orientation.
Transgendered persons are people who live most or all of the time in the
appearance of the gender opposite their birth gender. I have never met one
in person but from what I've read, I understand that they are very different
from transsexuals and will have a variety of sexual orientations from hetero
to bisexual to homosexual and that it's impossible to generalize.
By functioning sexually as women, do you mean entering into homosexual
relationships? That would probably depend on the particular culture and
social and ethical mores of that culture, wouldn't it? It's my admittedly
limited understanding that homosexual men in our culture function sexually
as men although with other men. They do not wish to become women. It's also
important to note that being homosexual does not necessarily equate with
being effeminate. Perhaps some of those cultures that revere effeminate men
as shamans and such also demand celibacy. There may be as many answers as
there are cultures. Even in modern western culture it's difficult to
generalize. Important to us is that, ideally, an unmarried Baha'i,
regardless of gender, birth sex, or genetic predisposition, will not
function sexually with anyone else. That is a Baha'i teaching. One does not
pick and choose their favorite teachings of course.
In the spirit of understanding and sharing,
Hannah
----------
From: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu[SMTP:kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, 13 December, 1995 9:32 PM
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re:Homosexuality and Biology cont...
> There are societies in which young men in families without daughters are
>trained
>to act and function as women, because this partially
>satisfies a need in regard to family balance and continuity.
Do these men tend to be homosexual? Is it accepted, within these
societies, that these young men will also function sexually as women?
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: think@ucla.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Homosexuality and Biology
Date: 14 Dec 1995 10:05:28 GMT
> this influence has
> to be fitted under some Darwinian logic. Under the Darwinian paradigm
> the fittest of genes survive, that is, those genes that cause some sort
> of advantage
This is no longer a universally accepted idea among biologists. One of the
first arguments against it was that it would assume some kind of non-physical
link between an environment and the genes of the species inhabiting that
environment that cause a beneficial mutation to occur. More recently, the
argument has turned on the number of variations that have no survival value.
For instance, it is pretty hard to justify eye color differences as being the
result of an improved survival value, tho' there have been attempts.
Typically, the answer given tho is that a particular variation enhanced
sexual attractiveness at some time in the past. As has been pointed out,
this is a nice argument to propose when you have no answer because it can
never be proven or disproven.
There is an alternative idea that there is a constant process of variation.
(The Effect of Gamma Rays on Man in the Moon Marigolds?) These variations
will be maintained so long as that variation does not have disadvantages that
are significantly greater than the advantages, and they will be enhanced when
the advantages are significantly greater than the disadvantages. It thus
includes some elements of Darwin's research but also provides for other
changes that do not appear to fit his theory.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: "talisman@indiana.edu" ,
"Mark A. Foster"
Subject: RE: just a couple more thing
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:53:44 -0800
Dearest friends,
I believe that the possibility of the Universal House of Justice making a
decision such as has been speculated on in this forum is impossible. If the
House has accurate information, they would have an inspired solution and
would not make a decision that might cause the woman's death. To do so would
be more shocking to the believers than Tahirih removing her veil or Mohammed
changing the qiblih. Certainly, the House would not ask a person to violate
such a confidence. I can't imagine it. Are we not playing an intellectual
game? It's interesting but to what purpose?
Like Linda, I have held secrets about friends that I would never divulge. I
understand that perfectly.
Hannah
----------
From: Mark A. Foster[SMTP:mfoster@tyrell.net]
Sent: Thursday, 14 December, 1995 7:52 AM
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: just a couple more thing
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Linda Walbridge wrote to talisman@indiana.edu:
L>Mark, Eric's question was not strange. Perhaps being a woman, my life
L>experiences are very different from yours. But I know what it is like
L>to carry around the deepest, darkest secrets of another person. And
L>there is literally nothing that could get me to talk. Trustworthiness
L>is, to me, the most basic and most paramount virtue. One should never
L>betray a friend. If I had been the one to betray Jane's trust, her
L>blood would be on my hands.
Hi, Linda -
I did not mean anything offensive when I said that Eric's question
was strange. I was merely surprised by it.
I believe that the Guardian, through his secretary, said that, if
requested by an administrative institution, one should not keep a secret
to protect someone, but, if not asked, that one did not need to divulge
it. Obviously, there is a place for *personal information*, especially
when it is a part of a private consultation. Revealing that information
would generally be inappropriate and would violate the confidence which
was placed in the individual. However, as I see it, the well-being of
the whole, as perceived by the Universal House of Justice, outweighs
issues of privacy. Since the Universal House of Justice is, in its
decisons, guided by the Bab and Baha'u'llah, if, after all parties have
had their say, it requests that someone takes a particular course of
action, I do not see how she or he could refuse.
Warm greetings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion
*
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society
*
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality
*
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society
*
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College
*
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A.
*
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home)
*
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps)
*
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet);
*
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A
(Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff);
*
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange)
*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
___
* UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-)
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:10:29 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Biology
Dear Dann, Ken and All
Question from a less-than-layman biologist: assuming homosexuality
is 100% genetic, how can the evolutionary need for it change
in the span of a few thousand years?
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: 14 Dec 95 09:21:22 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: Re: RE: Homosexuality and Bi
To: caryer@microsoft.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Reply to: RE>RE: Homosexuality and Biolo
Hannah et al - we may not pick and choose but some of us certainly have
teachings that are our "favorites" ..... great post, thanx - Daniel (a manly
sissy)
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: Always make your intent clear
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:16:32 -0800
An object lesson
----------
A professor of chemistry wanted to teach his 9th grade class a lesson
about the evils of liquor, so he produced an experiment that involved a
glass of water, a glass of whiskey, and two worms.
"Now, class. Observe closely the worms," said the professor putting a
worm first into the water. The worm in the water writhed about, happy
as a worm in water could be.
The second worm, he put into the whiskey. It writhed painfully, and
quickly sank to the bottom, dead as a doornail.
"Now, what lesson can we derive from this experiment?" the professor
asked.
Scott, who naturally sits in back, raised his hand and wisely,
responded, "Drink whiskey and you won't get worms."
============================
"'Where do you get your ideas?' has always been the question I'm most
confronted with . . . I'm afraid the answer is much more mundane: I don't
know where my ideas come from. I will admit, however, that one key
ingredient is caffeine." -- Gary Larson (FarSide)
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:52:02 -0800
To: Saman Ahmadi , talisman
From: Safa Sadeghpour
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Biology
At 11:10 AM 12/14/95 -0600, Saman Ahmadi wrote:
>
>Dear Dann, Ken and All
>
>Question from a less-than-layman biologist: assuming homosexuality
>is 100% genetic, how can the evolutionary need for it change
>in the span of a few thousand years?
As mentioned in the previous post the "homosexuality gene" does
not need to provide any sort of benefit for it to exist. Additionally,
evotionary needs do change in time spans shorter than that.
A batch of bacteria will, for instance, become resistant to a specific
antibiotic in very short spans of time. I'm not saying that we have
a similar ability to mutate in such short time scales (due to our
long generation to generation time scale), but rather that
evolutionary needs per se can change very fast.
Take care.
Safa
>
>regards,
>sAmAn
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"My goal is simple. It is complete understanding of the universe, why it as
it is and why it exists as all." - Stephen Hawking
"Truth decays into beauty, while beauty soon becomes merely charm. Charm
ends up as strangeness, and even that doesn't last, but up and down are
forever." - The Laws of Physics
"The shining spark of truth comes forth only from the clash of differing
opinions." Abdu'l-Baha
Safa Sadeghpour (think@ucla.edu)
http://www.smc.edu/homepage/maclab/maclab.web/web/safa.web/safa.htm
=END=
From: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Subject: Dear Darwin....
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:00:40 -0600 (CST)
>
> > this influence has
> > to be fitted under some Darwinian logic. Under the Darwinian paradigm
> > the fittest of genes survive, that is, those genes that cause some sort
> > of advantage
>
> This is no longer a universally accepted idea among biologists. One of the
> first arguments against it was that it would assume some kind of non-physical
> link between an environment and the genes of the species inhabiting that
> environment that cause a beneficial mutation to occur.
Don, I lost you there. Safa hasn't said anything in the passage above
regarding the mechanism by which mutations occur (beneficial or otherwise).
The paradigm you seem to be referring to is that of Lamarck in which traits of
the subsequent generations are "moulded" directly by their parents'
interaction with the environment.
More recently, the
> argument has turned on the number of variations that have no survival value.
> For instance, it is pretty hard to justify eye color differences as being the
> result of an improved survival value, tho' there have been attempts.
The concept of neutral mutations (no advantage or disadvantage), is really in
no way
anti-Darwinian, but rather expands upon the possibilities within a Darwinian
framework.
> Typically, the answer given tho is that a particular variation enhanced
> sexual attractiveness at some time in the past. As has been pointed out,
> this is a nice argument to propose when you have no answer because it can
> never be proven or disproven.
>
> There is an alternative idea that there is a constant process of variation.
> (The Effect of Gamma Rays on Man in the Moon Marigolds?)
What do you mean by "constant process of variation". There are estimates out
there regarding the rate of accumulation of genetic mutations which would
provide some basis for estimating the rate at which the "process of variation"
might occur. Interestingly, it has recently been found that H. sapiens
appears to have one of the lowest mutation rates among all species.
These variations
> will be maintained so long as that variation does not have disadvantages that
> are significantly greater than the advantages, and they will be enhanced when
> the advantages are significantly greater than the disadvantages. It thus
> includes some elements of Darwin's research but also provides for other
> changes that do not appear to fit his theory.
Once again, this postulate does not contradict Darwin's theory.
Warmest Regards,
Ken
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:02:36 EST
Subject: hope from unexpected!
This is a poem inspired by a story of a hungry child, told by a Hunger Relief
worker at our International
Development class who worked in Ethiopia during the famine.
He walked miles,
to get to Relief Center.
His ribs expressing,
the turmoils he lived.
Waiting on the line,
along with many,
could barely talk,
when offered some milk.
He looked at the glass,
held by the lady,
then turned eyes back,
staring at others.
He whispered,
"how far down
do you want me to drink?"
Shocked by this,
the nurse said,
"you may drink all of it!"
He, then slowly sipped it down,
with apparent hesitance.
Oh God! how many occasions,
someone been told,
"it's my thought,
my knowledge,
my feeling,
my moment,
with my friends,
how dare,
you ask to share!"
Oh little son,
you touched my soul,
gave hope to me.
Blessed one,
pray for us to be,
and reach where you are,
and live as thee.
P.S. home page is slow coming, I did it on my school computer
where I work parttime as a teaching assistant.
*** ***
* *
*
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 13:35:08 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Darwin
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Don, I am quite aware that there are findings that don't absolutely
support every detail that Darwin put forward. But these are minor points.
Also, he emphasized sexual selection and part of the evolutionary process. We
are writing variations on a theme here, not throwing out the theme. Whatever
scientists are doing they are not proving so-called "creation theory." Linda
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:37:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Ahang Rabbani
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Salmani's memories
Ahang-jan: It is wonderful to have you back! Your incisive voice always
improves our discussions.
On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Ahang Rabbani wrote:
> [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
>
>
> Back on Talisman again and wouldn't you know it, Salmani's book
> is back again ...
>
>
> Firstly, I'm not sure why Juan's "most deeply-held values" is being
> compromised on a Kalimat Press project which apparently had nothing
> to do with Juan, unless as the Persians say, there is bowl under a
> half-bowl ;-} Why is he outraged?? If anything, Marzieh Gail, as
> the book's translator, should have raised concerns and to my
> knowledge she did no such thing.
Dear friend, I fear you have missed my point, partially because you were
not present for the earlier discussion. We were examining the issue of
whether a Baha'i by virtue of being a Baha'i must abdicate his or her
individual conscience in the face of a ruling by the Baha'i
institutions. My position is that one may never go against one's own
conscience. I am sympathetic to the attempt, urged by Rick, that one
re-examine one's conscience and find a way to reconcile it with the
rulings of the institutions. But if in the final analysis one cannot in
good conscience obey, then one should not. This dilemma does not exist
in Protestantism or Judaism or Hinduism, which are relatively
decentralized, to the same extent. It is a Catholic sort of dilemma,
though it might be present in Shi`ism with regard to the Guardianship of
The Jurisprudent (vilayat-i faqih) or marja`iyyat. I had pointed out
that Thomas of Aquinas stood for the inviolability of the individual
conscience, even with regard to the Church. And Burl posted a quote from
`Abdu'l-Baha about the inviolability of the individual conscience, from
Traveller's Narrative, which it seems to me should help settle the issue.
So, in short, I instanced the Salmani affair only as an example of the
sort of dilemma that might occur. After all, it is not so far-fetched
that I might at some point wish to edit and publish a Babi or Baha'i
primary source. And if the precedents of the censoring of Salmani and
the derailing of the Encyclopaedia are any guide, this dilemma of
conscience is not at all far-fetched. It could occur for others in other
areas. I am just saying that when push comes to shove, sometimes you
have to do what *you* know is the right thing.
By the way, the author of the introduction to Salmani's text insisted in
the wake of the bowdlerization that his name be removed. Marzieh was
absolutely furious. MacEoin has mentioned the details in a footnote to
one of his articles, and it has been thrown in Baha'i scholars' faces by
suspicious Iranian academics as further proof that the Baha'is tamper
with history. So, yes, the incident had personal repercussions for me,
and, in my field, hurt the image of the Faith. Salmani was a
working-class Baha'i close to important events and his memoir would be
recognized by any historian as a significant primary source, despite its
limitations (i.e., no dates!). There are some things we know about only
from this source, to my knowledge, such as Baha'u'llah's initial decision
to resist the Sultan's banishment of him to Edirne/Adrianople. Given
Ahang's past insistence that the manuscript resources for the Faith be
opened up, I am puzzled by his stance here.
As I said, had I been in Kalimat's position I could not have in good
conscience removed anything from the English translation, and I think
ordering Kalimat to do so was unwise.
As for why we should discuss these things in public, well, why not? They
are public events that affect all of us as Baha'is, and affect the image
of the Faith among non-Baha'is. They come into our understanding of our
relationship with the institutions. We discuss these issues for the same
reason that Thomas of Aquinas and Hans Kung did. Theology is faith
seeking understanding.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:31:18 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Poor Salmani
Well, it is hard to see how yet another discussion of the Salmani affair is
going to do a whole lot of good. But, then my friend Ahang knows best about
these things and I am always willing to defer to his superior knowledge and
experience. And as Payam has mentioned, the story is not quite so simple as
it has been presented, and I must--I am afraid--complicate matters with
certain facts.
Well, maybe it is an instructive example, since this is a case where the
Baha'i review process broke down completely and failed. The Salmani memoirs
had been reviewed after all, not once, but twice. Once by the National
Spiritual Assembly of the United States and once by a international Persian
reviewing committee which, as far as I can tell, had been convened by the
House expressly for the purpose of reviewing the manuscript. This was a
process, by the way, which took about two years to complete. But all that
counted for nothing when Payam received that mysterious, early-morning phone
call at home informing him that the House did not want the manuscript
published. This was, as has been pointed out, the ms. had been translated,
paid for, typeset, and sent to the printer. We literally had to call the
printer and stop the presses.
I am, by the way, myself puzzled at why anyone would find it strange that
the bowlderization of Salmani would violate Juan's "deeply held values." I
would suppose that it would violate anyone's deeply held values. Unless, of
course, one believes that historical manuscripts can be translated and
published--with the publisher just leaving out anything that he finds
inconvenient, and leaving no trace.
If that is the Baha'i standard, then the widely held belief in academic
circles--and published from Browne to MacEoin--that Baha'is have routinely
and repeatedly falsified and distorted their own history in order to make it
conform to later doctrine begins to sound plausible. And what do we say
when the "omissions" inevitably come out in the wash?
Anyone who thinks that "just leaving things out" is of no consequence
might consider a translation and publication of, say, the Kitab'i 'Ahd (an
historical document) with all references to 'Abdu'l-Baha removed. We can all
agree that the result would be a grotesque distortion of Baha'u'llah's
intentions. The fact is that by "just leaving things out" one can make any
historical document say just about anything that he wants it to say, in
violation of the intentions of the author.
I also find it difficult to understand why anyone would think that
Salmani's memoirs are insignificant. He was, after all, one of the
companions of Baha'u'llah for many year--his barber and bath attendant--and
one would think that all Baha'is would be intensely interested in what he had
to say. His eyewitness account of the life of the Manifestation can easily
be compared to any one of the Gospel accounts. But the official position
that Salmani's memoirs are "unworthy" seems to me to be a bit disingenuous,
anyway, since NONE of the memoirs of Baha'u'llah's companions have been
translated or published. In fact, they are closely guarded and suppressed.
Surely one or two of them have some merit.
Anyway, the idea that only Juan was shocked by the sudden order to stop
publication of Salmani is most certainly mistaken. Marzieh Gail most
certainly did object to the action, and her feelings were communicated to the
House. She even swore that she would do no more Baha'i translations, and she
didn't. Another Baha'i, a professor of Persian and History at UCLA, who had
written a preface to the memoirs, refused to have his name any longer
associated with the project. Kalimat Press sent repeated appeals to the
House, and even a certain member of the National Spiritual Assembly who is
not known for his love of Kalimat Press or the "Los Angeles group" went out
of his way to express his indignation. Much to my absolute astonishment!
As to what actually happened, the early-morning phone call from a Persian
friend, relaying a message from a member of the House of Justice that the
Salmani memoirs were not to be printed came out of the blue. We sent
repeated telegrams to Haifa (in those pre-email days) asking for an
explanation and wondering what might be objectionable. A couple of weeks
later, we receive a xeroxed Persian manuscript of Salmani with some passages
highlighted. No cover letter, no explanation. Just a highlighted ms. What
did it mean? Were these passages to be modified in translation? excised?
Moreover, we found that fully half of the highlighted passages had
already been translated an published in Balyuzi and Taherzadeh. A fact that
somebody is Haifa had evidently overlooked. So, what did that mean?
Obviously there could be no objection to these passages appearing in a
complete translation of Salmani's memoirs when they had already been publish
in except in other books. Or could there be? I guess Ahang thinks that
there could be.
Anyway, it was a mess. What we were finally able to work out was a
minimum removal of three or four passages which seemed a bit controversial.
But in one case, we actually removed the wrong passage--leaving in the part
that should have been taken out, since the part of the highlighted section we
thought might be objectionable, someone else thought had been OK. So,
"creative interpretation" is also a two way street. :-)
Anyway, it was an ugly episode and I think that it will not be repeated.
Yes, we all learned from it. Just what, I am not sure. But there is a lot
there.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:44:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Ken Seidenman
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re:Homosexuality and Biology cont...
Ken: I think you might check out the bonobos, which are a primate just
as close to humans as chimpanzees (98% the same genes). They differ from
chimps in showing no violent tendencies (gangs of male chimps sometimes
gang up an an individual and mug and kill him).
Bonobos engage in extensive homosociality. There was a fascinating piece
in the *Scientific American* on them last spring. The ethologists think
the same-sex sexual interactions function as social lubrication.
As most of you know, I stand against sociobiology, and I think most human
behavior of consequence has a strong constructed/social element. But if
one were looking for primate evidence of genetic predisposition to a
certain amount of homosociality, bonobos, being so close to humans,
cannot be ignored.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 17:30:14 GMT
From: Abdo@mishmish.demon.co.uk (Abdo Lil & Shoghi)
To: osborndo@pilot.msu.edu, LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Polygamy
personally i don't find the idea of plural marriage particularly problematic,
but i recognise that this is my cultural bias - my vision of it is me and my
friends living together while some bloke finances our lifestyle in return
for a bit if light housework.
i think mr osborn outlined a number of reasons why women in some cultures
are perfectly happy with this sort of arrangement and i don't find them
suprising in the least! whilst i am not for one moment arguing in favour
of multiple marriage, it is i think worth pausing to reflect that some of the
aborrence of westerners to this practice may be based on concepts of exclusive
ownership and private property inherant in captialism. i have met women for whom
the arrangemant has worked perfectly well.
as to the relationship between polygamy and the oppression of women, one might
assume that if polygamy oppresses then conversly polyandry would liberate.
however, this is not the case. in rural Tibet women are sometimes married off
to a
number of male siblings. The logic of this is that patriarchy is maintained by
her father in law being the grandfather of all her children and thus his farm
does not have to be split into uneconomic small units, each unable to support
and individual family unit. the result of this is that a young woman may marry
a man and get all his little brothers as a job lot, she ends up as a servant
to the whole pack of them, has to have sex with them and work the farm -
on balance, sharing a husband seems preferable
the bottom line is not the ratio of men to women in numerical terms but
the balance of power within the relationship, which in turn reflects the
relative status of men and women in the society
-
Abdo Lil & Shoghi
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:15:19 -0800
To: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: Safa Sadeghpour
Subject: Re: Re: Homosexuality and Biology
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
At 10:05 AM 12/14/95 GMT, Don R. Calkins wrote:
>> this influence has
>> to be fitted under some Darwinian logic. Under the Darwinian paradigm
>> the fittest of genes survive, that is, those genes that cause some sort
>> of advantage
>
>This is no longer a universally accepted idea among biologists. One of the
>first arguments against it was that it would assume some kind of non-physical
>link between an environment and the genes of the species inhabiting that
>environment that cause a beneficial mutation to occur. More recently, the
>argument has turned on the number of variations that have no survival value.
>For instance, it is pretty hard to justify eye color differences as being the
>result of an improved survival value, tho' there have been attempts.
>Typically, the answer given tho is that a particular variation enhanced
>sexual attractiveness at some time in the past. As has been pointed out,
>this is a nice argument to propose when you have no answer because it can
>never be proven or disproven.
>
>There is an alternative idea that there is a constant process of variation.
>(The Effect of Gamma Rays on Man in the Moon Marigolds?) These variations
>will be maintained so long as that variation does not have disadvantages that
>are significantly greater than the advantages, and they will be enhanced when
>the advantages are significantly greater than the disadvantages. It thus
>includes some elements of Darwin's research but also provides for other
>changes that do not appear to fit his theory.
>
>Don C
>
Dearest Don,
Both of these approaches can be justified if we look at how evolution
occurs at microscopic scales. Mutations, or changes in base-pair
sequence of DNA, occur every day, every instant and all the time.
These mutations don't show their faces most of the time simply
because more than 99% of our DNA is non-functional material.
In other words, it is only rarely that a mutation falls exactly on
a functional gene, and this gene is passed to the next generation.
If this change causes some disadvantage that would limit the procreativity
of the individual, then this genetic mutation will tend to dissappear from
the population as a whole. But, if it provides some advantage then
the gene will permit the possessing individual to procreate even further
(maybe at the cost of other individuals), and then this genetic material
will become a meaningful portion of the general population. Now, the
case at hand, when the gene does not provide any significant
advantage or disadvantage to the carrier then the presence or
absence of that hereditary mutation will appear to follow a
random walk.
In other words and in plain language, sometimes it will appear
and most of the times it won't. This corresponds rather nicely
with the constant process of variation you presented above.
Actually, these two notions represent one single biological
fact, that of random variation in the genetic code when there
is no intrinsic benefit or disadvantage for the phenotype.
One additional point, Darwinism does not assume a non-physical
relationship between the beneficial gene and the environment, but
does predict that this will seem to be happening to an external
observer.
In fact, computer simulations and mathematical models of evolution
have been created on just the principle that beneficial genes
will tend to survive (causing "good" phenotypes that allow long
lifetimes and greater procreation), and that mutations are
generated on a purely randomic form. All this without assuming
that there is a non-physical link between the environment and
the gene.
Take care.
your friend,
Safa
>
>
>He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"My goal is simple. It is complete understanding of the universe, why it as
it is and why it exists as all." - Stephen Hawking
"Truth decays into beauty, while beauty soon becomes merely charm. Charm
ends up as strangeness, and even that doesn't last, but up and down are
forever." - The Laws of Physics
"The shining spark of truth comes forth only from the clash of differing
opinions." Abdu'l-Baha
Safa Sadeghpour (think@ucla.edu)
http://www.smc.edu/homepage/maclab/maclab.web/web/safa.web/safa.htm
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:44:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: evolution
Dear friends, i need your help please. The other day, the director of the
office i work in e-mailed me to ask if Baha'is believe in evolution. This
was very exciting as this lady does not like organized religion, is an
agnostic, but really likes the Faith and i think in some subtle way is
drawn to it. She is starting to ask questions about the Baha'i view on
different matters. I reviewed the chapters in Some Answered Questions and
e-mailed her back but i don't know if the answer was adequate. the main
point i tried to make was that there may have been evolution within
'kingdom', ie animal, vegetable, human etc, but that humans were always
humans despite what they may have looked like and were and are
distinguished from animals because of their rational mind, and their soul.
She wonders though if there is evidence that plants ie. algae, somehow
grew tails and became animals etc.
THis is all getting too scientific, so i was wondering if you could
kindly assist me by sending me some suggested answers that are based both
on the Faith and on scientific findings that i might be able to forward
to her.
As always, I really appreciate your assistance and look forward to your
responses.
Warmest regards and gratitude.
Cheshmak Farhoumand
=END=
Subject: Genes/Homosexuality/Homophilia/Discovery!
To: snoopy@skipper.physics.sunysb.edu (Stephen Johnson)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:40:07 -0500 (EST)
From: "Donald Zhang Osborn"
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Allah'u'Abha!
Many more questions ... regarding genetics & evolution, different causes
for homosexuality, "philia" vs. "sexuality," and two discussion questions re:
a hypothetical "cure" for a hypothetical "cause" of homosexuality.
First, regarding genetics & evolution (an area in which I am also "less
than layman, as Saman puts it). In a Social Forestry class a few years ago
we read an article on sociobiology in which the author (whose name now escapes
me) used an example of how a male homosexual gene could be passed on. As I
remember, the idea was that in a male dominated society, some males would
help rather than challenge the leading males. This subservience, which
may have ensured survival (of the subservient males & perhaps also of the
larger community), also may have been motivated in part by an attraction
which, although not necessarily sexual, had that potential. This synopsis
is perhaps too sketchy & garbled, but perhaps someone remembers the theory
better (not that I am inclined to give it much credence)?
Second, regarding "the cause" for homosexuality (& variants), is it
possible that there are several different "causes" (or sets of biological &/or
environmental factors), so that we are not talking about one phenomenon, but
several phenomena having similar behavioral expressions (and in the West an
emerging common ideology)? Dan said he thought that people who had "changed"
back & forth were actually "bisexual" ("ambisexual"?). But is "sexual
orientation" (I have reservations about this term) a continuum (as he seems to
imply) or a more complex mosaic?
Furthermore, could homosexual men and homosexual women be subject to the
same genetic or biological "cause"?
Third, a sentence in Stephen's posting brought to mind a term I ran across
somewhere--"homophilia" (I hope Stephen will forgive my taking this out of
its context):
> I, personally, have had very strong feelings (though non-sexual) towards
> members of the same sex, one of them a gay man who was my best friend in
> college. But Baha'u'llah is clear (as is the Beloved Guardian). This is
> not a viable option. The Universal House of Justice has again recently
> clarified this. ........
Is it helpful to discern between Philia
strong feelings--"philia", and |
sexual attraction--"sexuality"? |
Perhaps in today's West, where |
sexuality is so overemphasized, Hetero--------|---------Homo
strong feelings are often assumed |
to have a sexual intent & ultimate |
outcome, when in fact this is not |
necessarily the case. The Descartian Sexuality
plane on the right indicates a possible
schema for discussion (although it has the weakness, in my opinion, of
implying that homosexuality is on a par with heterosexuality). On this
plane, one may situate many inclinations. Perhaps an individual can
be in more than one place (e.g., heterosexual & homophilia). This is
very tentative & I throw it out as an idea...
In any event, I'd be interested to know how the term "homophilia" is
used in academic, clinical, or popular parlance.
Fourth, let's assume for a moment that a team of doctors makes a
breakthrough discovery: they have found the gene that "causes" homosexual
attraction in ~90% of cases. Furthermore, it operates by effecting hormonal
balance at a critical stage in a child's development (one manifestation of
this being the size of the hypothalamus). Here are two questions:
1. Should research money be allocated to developing treatment to modify the
hormonal balance, hence permitting parents to treat their children so that
they will not develop homosexual attractions later in life? Keep in mind
that a lot of money goes for a lot of kinds of research, and funding of this
project would not necessarily affect other medical research (cancer, AIDS,
malaria, etc.).
2. You are the parent (to be) of a child who has just been found to have
this gene, and you have the option of giving them the treatment. Would you
choose to do it? (Assume that the cost is not high & potential discomfort/
side-effects are minimal.)
(One could modify these questions, too.)
Don Osborn osborndo@pilot.msu.edu
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:02:55 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: Homosexuality
The question I raise with regard to my own struggles to obey Baha'i law is:
do I believe that Baha'u'llah has a prospective which I do not possess, and
which is enjoined upon me for the benefit of my soul, or do I make wrong His
perspective in favor of my own inclinations or for my own comfort. I have
several friends who are homosexual or bisexual, and my impression of their
inclinations is that this lifestyle is largely chosen (unconcsciously, for
the most part) to avoid issues that are highly charged and emotionally very
uncomfortable. It is easier for them to live this way in order not to have
triggered much unfinished conflict, usually within their family of origin,
and in order to support certain viewpoints gathered from such experience,
such as "Men only want one thing," "So this is how men and women treat
eachother after the courtship is over," "All women do is try to control
you," etc. etc. etc. I am not meaning to oversimplify this issue, but in
my own journey of healing I have encountered again and again distortions in
my own thinking that subtlely controlled my behavior in ways that I didn't
for most of my life understand and struggled like a fiend to try to make
sense of or justify. These attitudes frequently don't even belong to us,
but are broadcast in the very gestures of our parents and those around us
when we are young. Until we uncover them and see their power over us, we go
on making choices (usually unhealthy) that are based upon the operation of
these distortions. Burl's posting addressed this very clearly. I am not
saying that this is universally the case, but our family issues are at the
root of most of our pathologies. It seems that these inclinations can occur
very early in life, apparently as some natural state. Are not most of our
idiosyncracies some sort of defense mechanism or coping skill formed in
response to unpleasant or even unbearable situations? Supposing them to be
our inherent qualities makes little more sense to me than supposing that we
live many lifetimes in order to explain these character and personality traits.
As far as genetics are concerned, I am no authority on this any topic,
except my own search. So from the perspective that God tests his servants,
perhaps even this genetic fluke, this accident of chromosomal arrangement is
every bit His Will as the tests that all of us endure. I have my own set
that I have spent years sorting through and continue to struggle with, and
by and large, although the pain involved in facing my own history has been
and is from time to time excruciating, I can see these events as a mercy in
the long run - they have challenged me, have required that I surrender my
will again and again and again in order to survive the onslaught of this
world. We all suffer, we are all brought to our knees in one way or
another, because most of us if given the choice would never choose this path.
Someone mentioned chakras. This is one of those phenomena (like gravity),
the source of which is unseen. I believe that they are qute literal, and
consistent in their properties. The second chakra, the sex chakra is the
center of sensuality and creativity. If there are distortions around issues
such as whether or not we were touched as children, whether that touch was
safe and appropriate, whether our creativity was encouraged, whether we were
allowed some expression of that creativity, or had our need for touch and
closeness validated, whether we experienced physical pleasure, or whether
all of these healthy aspects of ourselves were suppressed/denied/kicked out
of us, then disortions will arise in our interactions with others, in our
abilty to relate in healthy ways to others. Sexual abuse and domestic
violence does much to destroy our ability to relate to our own creative
urges and yearnings, let alone our sensuality. The example of (was it you,
David?) the woman who mistook her spritual yearning for sexual attraction is
only one configuration of how this can play itself out in our interactions
with other human beings.
John Upledger, DO, founder of the Upledger Institute has done years of
medical research (Michigan State University) on the nature of fascial
restrictions and restrictions within the craniosacral membrane itself. He
has discovered that the nature of all these restrictions is energetic, the
sources of which can be physical, emotional, or spiritual in nature, yet
they all manifest physically: at times as simple tissue restrictions, but
they can ultimately lead to diseases in the organs and tissues (utilizing
the meridian system) if the restriction remains over a period of time. In
other words, the roots of many diseases are energetic (vibrational) in
nature. Imagine that. Uncovering the traumatic source of the restriction
can be accessed directly throught the tissue (it has memory and is
consciously accessible). He has documented case after case of physical and
psychological symptoms (as well as many learning disabilties) that have
responded positively to Craniosacral Therapy and Somato Emotional Release
techniques. He is no New Age cook or weirdo, but an osteopathic physician
who is pioneering methods of treating "hopeless" or "inexplicable
(psychosomatic)" conditions. The medical community is just beginning to
give ear. Perhaps we need more time to uncover the various causes of
homosexuality and need not rush to conclude that all the "scientific"
evidence is in.
I, too, have known several people who decided that they were homosexual,
only to change their minds years later. With the current state of
male/female relationships in this culture it is tempting to bag it and adopt
an alternative lifestyle, gathering evidence along the way for why you are
doing what you are doing. Again, I mean no offense, nor do I mean to making
sweeping generalizations, or to take lightly the suffering that accompanies
the decision or conclusion that one is gay. But it seems that the standard
of modern Western culture is being upheld as the Truth in many postings and
I have to question this. I have no idea what it is like to be a homosexual,
I have not suffered the prejudices and inequities that homosexuals have
suffered. Can we trust the Western Medical model any more than the mores of
our society, that model being the product of this society? I long for
something more.
Loving Regards,
LuAnne
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 16:19:03 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Salmani
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Tony,
Just out of curiosity, why would you act on an "early-morning phone call from a
Persian
friend, relaying a message from a member of the House of Justice" when you
presumably already had on paper authorizations to publish from the
reviewing committees of the US NSA and the House of Justice? Why did
you think that this "Persian friend" was authorized to overrule a World
Centre decision? Why, in fact, did you think that the individual House
member was authorized to overrule the reviewing committee? After all,
if something I write passes review, and then a member of the NSA calls me
up and says he doesn't like it, I presumable have every right to hang up
on him and publish anyway.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 16:45:34 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Darwin et al
To: talisman@indiana.edu
In his later book, *The Descent of Man*, Darwin identified sexual
selection as a more powerful engine of change than natural selection.
In sexual selection particular traits give a direct advantage in mating.
That is why you have creatures like peacocks, whose tails certainly give
them no advantage in avoiding being eater but as very attractive to
peahens. Sexual selection explains how you can get creatures like
cocker spaniels and great danes out of the same stock in a relatively
short period of time.
BTW, I once read through Darwin's three main works: *Voyage of
the Beagle*, *Origin of Species*, and *Descent of Man*. I highly
recommend it. Darwin lived in the days when scientists could write.
These are glorious, epic works and could be just as well classed with
Homer as with Aristotle.
john walbridge
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Polygamy
To: Donald Zhang Osborn
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 16:41:27 EST
Cc: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, Talisman@indiana.edu
According to Donald Zhang Osborn:
>
>
> Another kind of polygamy--polyandry, or marrying many husbands--is very rare.
> One reason is it is hard to tell who is the father of the woman's children
> (although genetic research is changing that). I'm not sure if de jure
> polyandry ever really existed; generally it was a cultural accepotance that a
> woman would be "with" more than one man. I don't know what the economic or
> demographic reasons or functionality of polyandry could be. In the future
> however, due to lare numbers of elective abortions of female fetuses,
countries
> like India and China may have a shortage of women--who know what that could
> lead to.
Polyandry was practiced in Tibet, although as I understand it
the woman would marry brothers rather than unrelated men.
Whether this was due to strange demographics, I don't know.
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:17:09 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: the Salmani Manuscript
Dear Everyone,
As an outsider, I a bit confused. This is what I gather
from what has been said.
1. The Salmani manuscript is reviewed and approved
twice.
2. Someone who happened to be Persian (seriously, what does
the fact that he/she was Persian add anything to the
point of the story?), relaying a message from the House of Justice,
informs the publisher by a phone call that the work should not be
published - this occurs as the book is ready to be printed.
3. No reason is given for the stoppage - the World
Centre sends some highlighted pages in response to
repeated calls for an explanation.
4. A compromise is reached wherein a few passges
that seem controversial are deleted.
5. After more than a decade, no one really knows
why certain passages were thought inappropriate.
With all due respect I get the impression - confirmed
by all the discussions about review - that publishers,
scholars and the Research Department are not communicating
very effectively.
May I make my suggestion again: elect, pick, whatever...
a group of scholars and request to physically meet with
the Research Department (meeting with the House would
be better).
These discussions are finding their way into more public
forums than this such as soc.religion.bahai. I don't
really mind that - what really bothers me is the lack of
optimism for a solution.
Whatever approach is currently being taken on the part of the
scholars is not working and rather than finding a middle ground, it
seems that positions are only being hardened. I think
only two people engaged in a discussions of Chris' recommendation -
and if memory serves they were both physicists!
For Maiden's sake people! ;-) C'mon.
In engineering if an attempt to a solution does not
work, another path is tried, if that one does not work
then another one, and so on and so on....
It seems that we have decided on the path and want to
align the problem with it - as anyone who has seen
Apollo 13 knows, you can not fit a square peg in a round
hole... unless you devise an adaptor to make the sqaure
peg be accepted by the hole.
I apologize for venting - it has not been a good
couple of days on other counts.
take care,
sAmAn (I hope the fact that I am Persian means that you
will consider my suggestion ;-)
=END=
Date: 14 Dec 95 14:36:48 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: Re: Re- Re- Homosexuality an
To: think@ucla.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Reply to: RE>Re: Re: Homosexuality and B
Safa -
This is great, keep going, I'm listening, tho not mutating very fast
- Daniel ( with the possibly funny gene)
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:30:13 -0700
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Probably some cult in the Bahamas
Dear Friends:
There has been a lot of discussion on Talisman lately on conscience,
intuition, synchronicity and the like an I have been finding it very
stimulating.
I remember the beloved Cousellor Angus Cowan, when discussion became rather
academic and abstract and it was his turn to speak, would preface his
comments with "If you'll excuse me, I'd like to tell a story". And he would.
His stories were always simple, frequently funny and brought the subject
under consultation into clearer focus. Sometimes a story reveals more about
an individual and his/her relationship with God than all h(is)er scholarly
and erudite efforts.
I am neither a beloved counsellor nor a scholar, but if you'll excuse me,
I'd like to tell a story. I'ts a story that I have told several times, in
abridged form at intimate Baha'i gatherings and one which I've often wanted
to put into writing in it's entirety. I'm lazy. I write about everything
except what I should. I don't know if this is an appropriate forum for
story telling, but I trust if it isn't I will be so informed by either our
host Dr. Walbridge or a cohort of his guests.
PART 1.
PROBABLY SOME CULT IN THE BAHAMAS
I don't recall the exact year. I belive it was about 1965 but it could have
been later. I didn't care as much then as I do now about how much time I'd
spent, wisely or unwisely, or how much I had remaining in my account. The
moment was all that mattered and at that moment I was lounged on the sofa
absently flipping through the pages of a Mad magazine I'd already read twice.
My Brother, Murray, got home from a day of classes at the Universtiy and
flopped in the armchair across from me. I could tell he wanted to talk. I
didn't.
Murray had decided years before that to become a minister. He had been
called, he firmly believed, to God's service one clear cold winter day
while snowshoeing across the Naashwaak River. There had been a heavy
snowfall the day before but this day was bright and sunny; just cold enough
to keep things crisp. He and I went snowshoeing often after scool - to the
back of our lot in Marysville, along the river to the flats, across the
river and up the cleared swath along the power line. I wasn't with him that
day. He fell through the snow and ice, the current tugging him down. Imagine
trying to pull yourself out of a swift flowing current, slush coated
snowshoes firmly lashed to your feet, nothing to grab on to but loose,
freshly fallen snow and polished ice. I don't believe it can be done.
Someone pulled him out: so he says. He made it home, coated with ice from
torso to toe, exhausted and delirious.
My father, after he and Mom had seen to it that Murray was relatively
undamaged by the incident and warmed up, wrapped in some blankets and given
some hot soup, hiked back to the spot. There was a large hole in the ice,
the snow clawed back from it's perimiter. The river rushed by underneath,
lapping at the edges. There were snowshoe tracks to and away from the place,
and my fathers tracks of course. There were no others.
But that's my brother's story, not mine, and to this day I don't know
whether to believe it or not. It doesn't matter what I believe. He believed
he was saved by the Lord and had decided to serve the Lord. Of course he
realized from the outset that such a career would involve offering spiritual
guidance to others and since I was handy, and obviously in need of spiritual
guidance, he began practicing on me.
I had been called too. But I'd hung up on the caller. In 1962 the
evangelist Leighton Ford, a brother in law of Billy Graham I believe, had
brought his crusade to Fredericton. My whole family went to hear him. I sat
fidgeting for most of the service and toward the end began to doze off. The
next thing I knew I was traipsing up the aisle to center of the the
Beaverbrook Arena, the sound of the choir singing "Just as I am", and
Leighton Ford's amplified voice, ringing in my ears, beckoning me to come
forward and give my life to Jesus.
"Mass hypnosis," I'd tell him later "Damnit Murray! that's all it was. God
had nothing to do with it. Hitler could do the same thing! And I was only 12
years old and half asleep!"
Murray would shake his head sadly and mutter a prayer on my behalf.
I was never sure if I was convinced of this interpretation or if I only
insisted upon it out of embarrasment. There were other families who had
dragged their kids, some of whom were my classmates, to the same
performance. None of them had gone forward.
"Hey Gord!" they'd tease later. "You goin up to the coolin' pond or are yuh
goin' home t' pray."
"Geez, knock it off you guys!. I was hypnotized O.K."
I increased the frequency of my blasphemies to convince them that the
incident was bogus.
While my brother was determine to become a Christian minister he hadn't
been able to decide on any particular denomination. Our family had gone to
a variety of churches over the years. All that mattered to my mother was
that there was a good community feeling, a spiritual atmosphere and a
minister who could deliver an "uplifting sermon". Fire and brimstone
weren't part of her religion. My father went to church because he knew it
was important to my mother and couldn't hurt the rest of us. He was a civil
engineer and professor at U.N.B.: one of those "Sons of Martha" Kipling
describes, whose good deeds were performed
"Not as a ladder from earth to Heaven, not as a witness to any creed,
But simple service simply given to his own kind in their common need."
That was his religion.
None of our grandparents or relatives had been clergymen. Murray was the
first of his kind in the clan. So he began surveying possible markets for
his services. It was during this period of inquiry that he encountered a
Baha'i student at U.N.B., Will Van Den Hoonard. It was shortly after that
encounter that he had arrived home and flopped in the armchair across from
where I was sitting. pretending be engrossed in a Mad magazine, oblivious of
his presence and uncomfortably aware that he was about to say something that
I did not want to hear. There was a long silence - then the inevitable voice.
"I was talking to a Baha'i today."
I kept my eyes focussed on the magazine and mumbled, "Uh huh - so - what's
Baha'i?"
My brother, undeterred by my disinterested tone and obviously believing
that I wouldn't have asked the question unless I wanted an answer, answered.
"It's a religion. Sounds like, ah, It sounds like a really interesting
religion."
"Hmmph." I flipped the page. "Probably some cult in the Bahamas".
"It's from one of those Arab countries." he said.
I flipped another page and quietly intoned a fragement of a silly song I'd
heard on the radio, "A-haab the A-raab the Shiek of the burning sand."
Still undeterred but becoming a little agitated at my reluctance to be
drawn into philosophical or theological discourse, he pressed on. "Anyway,
this guy I was talking to - Will Van Den Hoonard - he said this, ah, Baha'i
prophet or whatever - he wrote something to the effect that whenever two
people are arguing about religion, they're both wrong regardless of what
they believe in. Y'know, like the Baha'is belive that religion is intended
to unite people so if they're arguing about it, they're not following it."
I stood up, stretched and tossed the Mad magazine in Murray's lap. "Well, I
won't argue with that", I yawned and left the room, and Murray, alone with
his thoughts.
While I don't remember specific dates I do, vividly remember sequences of
events. The night that followed that seemingly ordinary and insignificant
conversation with my brother was not ordinary or insignificant. I often had
nightmares at that age but never, never like the one I had that night. It
was one of those deep-sleep apparitions that leaves you struggling to find
voice and limb, that you can only slowly emerge from by stages until you're
jerked back into consciousness by the sound of your own disembodied voice
barking in the night.
At 1:30 A.M. I went downstairs to the kitchen, turned on all the lights,
shut the blinds, turned the radio on, put water on for coffee, tried to read
a book. But there was an image burnt into my mind that wouldn't go away. And
it would haunt and plague me for over a decade.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 17:59:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: talisman
Subject: Part two: student-bloopers
Apparently, only one half of the Student's View of history transmitted,
yes? So here is, hopefully, the rest:
-Jonah
...Pharaoh forced the Hebrew slaves to make bread without straw.
Moses led them to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread, which is
bread made without any ingredients. Afterwards, Moses went up on Mount
Cyanide to get the ten commandments. David was a Hebrew king skilled at
playing the liar. He fougth with the Philatelists, a race of people who
lived in Biblical times. Solomon, one of David's sons, had 500 wives and
500 porcupines.
Without the Greeks, we wouldn't have history. The Greeks invented three
kinds of columns - Corinthian, Doric and Ironic. They also had myths. A myth
is a female moth. One myth says that the mother of Achilles dipped him in the
River Stynx until he became intolerable. Achilles appears in "The Illiad", by
Homer. Homer also wrote the "Oddity", in which Penelope was the last hardship
that Ulysses endured on his journey. Actually, Homer was not written by Homer
but by another man of that name.
Socrates was a famous Greek teacher who went around giving people advice.
They killed him. Socrates died from an overdose of wedlock.
In the Olympic Games, Greeks ran races, jumped, hurled the biscuits, and
threw the java. The reward to the victor was a coral wreath. The government
of Athen was democratic because the people took the law into their own hands.
There were no wars in Greece, as the mountains were so high that they couldn't
climb over to see what their neighbors were doing. When they fought the
Parisians, the Greeks were outnumbered because the Persians had more men.
Eventually, the Ramons conquered the Geeks. History call people Romans
because they never stayed in one place for very long. At Roman banquets, the
guests wore garlic in their hair. Julius Caesar extinguished himself on the
battlefields of Gaul. The Ides of March killed him because they thought he
was going to be made king. Nero was a cruel tyrany who would torture his poor
subjects by playing the fiddle to them.
Then came the Middle Ages. King Alfred conquered the Dames, King Arthur
lived in the Age of Shivery, King Harlod mustarded his troops before the
Battle of Hastings, Joan of Arc was cannonized by George Bernard Shaw, and the
victims of the Black Death grew boobs on their necks. Finally, the Magna Carta
provided that no free man should be hanged twice for the same offense.
In midevil times most of the people were alliterate. The greatest writer
of the time was Chaucer, who wrote many poems and verse and also wrote liter-
ature. Another tale tells of William Tell, who shot an arrow through an apple
while standing on his son's head.
The Renaissance was an age in which more individuals felt the value of
their human being. Martin Luther was nailed to the church door at Wittenberg
for selling papal indulgences. He died a horrible death, being excommunicated
by a bull. It was the painter Donatello's interest in the female nude that
made him the father of the Renaissance. It was an age of great inventions and
discoveries. Gutenberg invented the Bible. Sir Walter Raleigh is a historical
figure because he invented cigarettes. Another important invention was the
circulation of blood. Sir Francis Drake circumcised the world with a 100-foot
clipper.
The government of England was a limited mockery. Henry VIII found walking
difficult because he had an abbess on his knee. Queen Elizabeth was the "Vir-
gin Queen." As a queen she was a success. When Elizabeth exposed herself be-
fore her troops, they all shouted "hurrah." Then her navy went out and
defeated the Spanish Armadillo.
The greatest writer of the Renaissance was William Shakespear. Shakespear
never made much money and is famous only because of his plays. He lived in
Windsor with his merry wives, writing tragedies, comedies and errors. In one
of Shakespear's famous plays, Hamlet rations out his situation by relieving
himself in a long soliloquy. In another, Lady Macbeth tries to convince Mac-
beth to kill the King by attacking his manhood. Romeo and Juliet are an
example of a heroic couplet. Writing at the same time as Shakespear was Miquel
Cervantes. He wrote "Donkey Hote". The next great author was John Milton.
Milton wrote "Paradise Lost." Then his wife dies and he wrote "Paradise
Regained."
During the Renaissance America began. Christopher Columbus was a great
navigator who discovered America while cursing about the Atlantic. His ships
were called the Nina, the Pinta, and the Santa Fe. Later the Pilgrims
crossed the Ocean, and the was called the Pilgrim's Progress. When they
landed at Plymouth Rock, they were greeted by Indians, who came down the hill
rolling their was hoops before them. The Indian squabs carried porposies on
their back. Many of the Indian heroes were killed, along with their
cabooses, which proved very fatal to them. The winter of 1620 was a hard one
for the settlers. Many people died and many babies were born. Captain John
Smith was responsible for all this.
One of the causes of the Revolutionary Wars was the English put tacks in
their tea. Also, the colonists would send their pacels through the post with-
out stamps. During the War, Red Coats and Paul Revere was throwing balls over
stone walls. The dogs were barking and the peacocks crowing. Finally, the
colonists won the War and no longer had to pay for taxis.
Delegates from the original thirteen states formed the Contented Congress.
Thomas Jefferson, a Virgin, and Benjamin Franklin were two singers of the
Declaration of Independence. Franklin had gone to Boston carrying all his
clothes in his pocket and a loaf of bread under each arm. He invented elec-
tricity by rubbing cats backwards and declared "a horse divided against itself
cannot stand." Franklin died in 1790 and is still dead.
George Washington married Matha Curtis and in due time became the Father
of Our Country. Them the Constitution of the United States was adopted to
secure domestic hostility. Under the Constitution the people enjoyed the
right to keep bare arms.
Abraham Lincoln became America's greatest Precedent. Lincoln's mother
died in infancy, and he was born in a log cabin which he built with his own
hands. When Lincoln was President, he wore only a tall silk hat. He said,
"In onion there is strength." Abraham Lincoln write the Gettysburg address
while traveling from Washington to Gettysburg on the back of an envelope. He
also signed the Emasculation Proclamation, and the Fourteenth Amendment gave
the ex-Negroes citizenship. But the Clue Clux Clan would torcher and lynch
the ex-Negroes and other innocent victims. On the night of April 14, 1865,
Lincoln went to the theater and got shot in his seat by one of the actors in
a moving picture show. The believed assinator was John Wilkes Booth, a sup-
posedl insane actor. This ruined Booth's career.
Meanwhile in Europe, the enlightenment was a reasonable time. Voltare
invented electricity and also wrote a book called "Candy". Gravity was
invented by Issac Walton. It is chiefly noticeable in the Autumn, when the
apples are flaling off the trees.
Bach was the most famous composer in the world, and so was Handel. Handel
was half German, half Italian and half English. He was very large. Bach died
from 1750 to the present. Beethoven wrote music even though he was deaf. He
was so deaf he wrote loud music. He took long walks in the forest even when
everyone was calling for him. Beethoven expired in 1827 and later died for
this.
France was in a very serious state. The French Revolution was accomplished
before it happened. The Marseillaise was the theme song of the French Revolu-
tion, and it catapulted into Napoleon. During the Napoleonic Wars, the crowned
heads of Europe were trembling in their shoes. Then the Spanish gorrilas came
down from the hills and nipped at Napoleon's flanks. Napoleon became ill with
bladder problems and was very tense and unrestrained. He wanted an heir to
inheret his power, but since Josephine was a baroness, she couldn't bear him
any children.
The sun never set on the British Empire because the British Empire is in
the East and the sun sets in the West. Queen Victoria was the longest queen.
She sat on a thorn for 63 years. He reclining years and finally the end of
her life were exemplatory of a great personality. Her death was the final
event which ended her reign.
The nineteenth century was a time of many great inventions and thoughts.
The invention of the steamboat caused a network of rivers to spring up. Cyrus
McCormick invented the McCormick Raper, which did the work of a hundred men.
Samuel Morse invented a code for telepathy. Louis Pastuer discovered a cure
for rabbis. Charles Darwin was a naturailst who wrote the "Organ of the
Species". Madman Curie discovered radium. And Karl Marx became one of the
Marx Brothers.
The First World War, cause by the assignation of the Arch-Duck by a surf,
ushered in a new error in the anals of human history.
-Enjoy
Eric
CIS Morale Officer
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 18:10:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Stephen Johnson
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: science and religion
On Thu, 14 Dec 1995 LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu wrote:
> As for dismissing science as constantly changing, please consider the work of
> biologists and biological anthropologists. We have been through this before,
> but Darwin just keeps on coming out right. The core of his arguments are
never
> disproven, but constantly substantiated. Are we going to go around saying
that
> all this is just rubbish. That sooner or later scientists are going to
> debunk Darwin? Please...Linda
Linda,
Allah'u'Abha.
To my knowledge there are some aspects of the evolution of species which
do not fit into the little package which Darwin has wrapped for us.
Please do not read this as an effort to debunk Darwin. I think the same
of Darwin's theory as I do of Newton's theory. Both theories were
complete for their time, in that they explained all of the data which was
available. However, there seem to be too many holes in some of the
specifics (I'll elaborate if asked). I think that Darwin's theory is a
nice starting place (as was Newton's) and I believe that both men were
geniuses in their own right at their own time. But, last I checked,
Darwin is not infallable and I believe that as the years progress we will
end up adding more and more to this basis which Darwin composed.
Just my own (completely falsifiable) theory,
stephen
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 16:54:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Qamus-i Iqan
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Friends in Oklahoma report that:
Persian Language Commentary on Baha'u'llah's Book of Certitude,
the Kitab-i-Iqan "QAMUS-I-IQAN" by Ishraq-Khavari four volume set
only $105.00 per set.
To order contact Mr. Kayhan Movafagh in USA at (405) 840-5536
FAX (405) 843-4146
I don't know any more than the above. But if you don't have a
set, it be the best $105. you ever spend (assuming you read
Persian and a bit of Arabic). ahang.
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:35:55 -0800 (PST)
From: SAFA SADEGHPOUR
Subject: Re: science and religion
To: Stephen Johnson
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Stephen Johnson wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 1995 LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu wrote:
>
> > As for dismissing science as constantly changing, please consider the work
of
> > biologists and biological anthropologists. We have been through this
before,
> > but Darwin just keeps on coming out right. The core of his arguments are
never
> > disproven, but constantly substantiated. Are we going to go around saying
that
> > all this is just rubbish. That sooner or later scientists are going to
> > debunk Darwin? Please...Linda
>
> Linda,
>
> Allah'u'Abha.
>
> To my knowledge there are some aspects of the evolution of species which
> do not fit into the little package which Darwin has wrapped for us.
> Please do not read this as an effort to debunk Darwin. I think the same
> of Darwin's theory as I do of Newton's theory. Both theories were
> complete for their time, in that they explained all of the data which was
> available. However, there seem to be too many holes in some of the
> specifics (I'll elaborate if asked). I think that Darwin's theory is a
This could become an interesting discussion on the
true value of original Darwinism today.
I would appreciate if you could start
this discussion by pointing out the holes you
mentioned.
Take care.
Safa
> nice starting place (as was Newton's) and I believe that both men were
> geniuses in their own right at their own time. But, last I checked,
> Darwin is not infallable and I believe that as the years progress we will
> end up adding more and more to this basis which Darwin composed.
>
> Just my own (completely falsifiable) theory,
>
> stephen
>
=END=
From: "Blah Blah Blah"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:22:01 PST8PDT
Subject: epiphanies and reverence, doubts and fears/ was, conscience...
Hi,
re:
> Date sent: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:30:18 +1300 (NZDT)
> To: "Eric D. Pierce" ,
talisman@indiana.edu
> From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
> Subject: Re: conscience and obedience (back to Appleville and
Bloomtown)
> Dear Eric,
> You wrote:
>
> >
> >Lacking much interest in the predictable and tedious theoretical
> >aspects of this discussion, I would like to ask Tim, Rick, Robert, Mark:
> >
> > If you were in Jane's shoes, and in the extremely unlikely event
> > that the House of Justice told you to turn Mary's address over to
> > the Bloomtown LSA, and you complied, and that action resulted in
> > Mary's allegedly vicious husband finding her and killing her,
> > would you consider her blood to be on your hands, the hands of the
> > House, the hands of the husband, or all of the above?
>
> No, no, probably, no. And you? (Play fair now!)
>
> Robert..
>
Robert (and Tim and Mark, Linda, Hannah/Cary) thanks for the
interesting responses. Of course, Ralph has now provided us with
additional information that makes the point in this specific case
moot.
As Ralph reports:
"As I said originally, this is a true story. The Bloomtown LSA
replied to the Appleville LSA, repeating Jane's offer to forward
a message to Mary. The Secretary also called the Office of
Community Administration at the National Center to ask for advice,
and was told clearly that it is NOT within the powers of the Baha'i
administrative institutions to 'order' a believer to reveal
confidential information. So, as a practical matter, an appeal of
such a decision by the LSA would have been successful."
So, the staff at the US National Baha'i Center indicated that the Bloomtown
LSA couldn't force Jane to give up Mary's address (an interesting policy).
Simply out of curiosity, I would like to know on what basis it is supported
in the writings.
Linda/Mark: anybody please feel free to refer to my person (or anything
I write) as strange, dim, mentally disorganized, compositionally impaired,
full of bullshit or whatever if you want to, the basic thoughts stand or
fall on their own merit. Mark, you know it is probably ok for you to
say you are pissed when people make snide comments about why you are
still not married, and it is probably also ok to say you are frustrated
with something about the discussion here. Let it out, it's better than
letting it fester. You are a great guy, I really appreciate what you
have contributed.
Tim, excuse me, but your your point about setting up a clever and subtle
ruse to comply with the letter but not the spirit of a hypothetical
directive of the House of Justive seems ridiculous. The whole problem was
that since Appleville LSA decided that due to its responsibilities and
authority, it needed to consult with Mary, if they were given an address
for Mary by Jane that was bogus, they would obviously go back to Jane
again and reiterate the original request.
Tim succinctly brings the central issue into focus:
"...to claim that
I have the *right* to disobey the divinely guided House of Justice,
to claim that there is any justification for my disobedience of
the 'truth and the purpose of God Himself'.... that is not just
immoral, it is illogical and silly. I would have to be very foolish
indeed to believe, on the one hand, that the decisions of the House
are unerring guidance from God, and on the other hand believe that
I ever have the *right* or justification to disobey that institution.
Those two beliefs, like fire and water, cannot exist together
in one heart or one mind."
Well, based on Ralph's 2nd message, now we know that Jane's statement
to the Bloomtown LSA that she would defy them, and the NSA and the
House of Justice if asked to give up Mary's address was premature.
So much for the practical aspect of this story.
I don't know if I should be AWED by Mark, Tim and Robert's reverence/faith
in the infallability/sinlessness (or whatever term you like) of the House
of Justice, or HORRIFIED by the possibility that because of that faith,
they would seem to be willing to give up their responsibility to protect
a friend's life under the hypothetical circumstances that we have been
discussing.
So, Robert: no I have never had an epiphany of sufficient magnitude to
induce the level of reverence and obedience for the Supreme Institution
that you have miraculously (?) developed. I probably could have such
reverence for Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l Baha if they were alive, maybe the
Guardian, but that's about it, sorry. I've never been on pilgrimage,
maybe that would change my feelings. As Ahmad would possibly say, maybe
I just ain't receptive enough?
Given that I feel the same as Tim has further stated:
"To disobey the Universal
House of Justice because of weakness or fear or laziness or stupidity
......that is one thing; I do that frequently. "
Maybe if I prayed and meditated my heart and brains out like I have
never done in my life, something would be revealed to me that would
allow me to overcome my own selfish sense of conscience and comply
with such a hypothetical directive from the House that would
"indirectly" end in someone else's life being taken. On the other
hand, that seems crazy.
Sometimes I feel like a little hobo wandering along kicking up puffs
of dust and pondering the loneliness of the tumblweeds on a desolate
stretch of the great cyber-railroad of life, and then suddenly along
comes a huge roaring train of thought on talisman, and wooosh!, it's
gone before I can even begin to get the dirt out of my eyes and figure
out what it was all about!
***
Regarding Counsellor Birkland's suggestion (as passed on by brother
Langness) to continue developing applications of the discussions on
talisman that can contribute to the administration and community in
specific ways: great!
What I would like to suggest is a discussion of how people can become
consecrated and develop reverence. Let's not be afraid of honestly
talking about how to come to term with our doubts, uncertainty and
fears and describing the tools for dealing with them that are
available in the writings and within the shared experiences and
traditions of our community of belief and other communities.
For instance, in spite of my desire to develop a higher ethical
frame of reference and evolve some intellectually/politically/socially
progressive sense of things, I find the intuitive spark and the urge
to yield to the divine (whatever that is) to always be flickering on
and off. I remember making a total ass of myself at a Baha'i seminar
years ago when people were talking about how they had some "peak
experience" of spirituality in their life. I started enthusiastically
prattling on about some weird out of body thing that happened to me.
The person I was talking to/at listened politely and patiently until
I was done, then said that they had always been kind of depressed
that they had never had a vision of any kind, and were expecting to
have a dream of Abdul-Baha or something, but were frustrated. That
shut me right up. So, there are deep socialized conflicting emotions
that affect our spiritual development and our discussions about the
meaning of life as spiritually oriented people who have made
commitments of varying types and depths to this Revelation. The
tangibility of the mere conciousness of the material/sensual world
is seductive in its veiled perversity. The desires of the mind
overrule the purity of the heart and soul, and the battle between
lightness and darkness goes on.
Although there have been some attempts to do otherwise, much of what
I find unsatisfying on talisman is the predictable lining up in camps
on either side of various imaginary chasms of ideology or opinion,
then tossing argumentative turds back and forth from one camp to the
other. Please.
If the folks that have a deep reverence and sense of obedience to
the Baha'i institutions would like to share the ecstasy and agony
of the road they had to take to get there and want talk about why
it has meaning to them, fine, wonderful! Just don't get all twitchy
and dogmatic when some of us say that we aren't there yet or don't
even want to be there. Compassion?
Nobody has to "own" the right way of being a Baha'i do they? In my
experience, the need to "own" the right way is the most (or at least
one of the most) destructive and dysfunctional dynamics in Baha'i
communities.
BTW on a lighter note Robert, I saw your photo (cool haircut!) in the
Summer 1995 NZ Baha'i "Forum" magazine that Dan loaned me . I'm going
to try to keep liking you even though you can't seem to resist making
the occasional disgusting little niggling comment about Tony Lee or
Juan Cole on talisman.
Oops, I promised myself not to preach, too late...
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: LAW, KOHLBERG, ESOT.
To: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 19:37:30 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com:
>
> Dear Paul,
>
> As a philosopher with an existential twist, I am always a bit skeptical of
> basing arguments solely on the basis of rather simplistic definitions,
> especially if those definitions are made part of a polarized hierarchy.
> Such hierarchies often turn "violent" -- that is, one of the two poles is
> seen as dominant, better or preferred, while the other is often seen as
> inferior or worthy of suppression or even destruction.
The esoteric/exoteric continuum has a place on it for every
taste, and I wouldn't dream of demanding that anyone (much less
everyone) occupy my favored position. While there is a
definite polarity here, no hierarchy was intended in my
remarks-- at least not an objective one, since there is a
subjective hierarchy of value inherent in any preference. But
this brings in Jung (see below).
>
> Frithjof Schuon argues in _The Transcendental Unity of Religions_ that the
> esoteric and exoteric dimensions are found within every religious
> tradition. Granted some religions emphasize the exoteric over the esoteric,
> while others seem to emphasize the esoteric over the exoteric.
OK-- in the esoteric column we have Sufism, Vedanta, Christian
Theosophy (e.g. Boehme), Kabbalah; in the exoteric column
Orthodox Judaism, Fundamentalist Christianity, priestly
Hinduism, Wahhabi Islam... In other words, every religion
tends to differentiate into subgroups with different emphases
on this dimension? That need not destroy the unity of the
religion, e.g. Catholicism has shown plenty of room for both
tendencies.
>
> For those unfamiliar with Schuon's work, here is a brief summary: Schuon
> identifies the esoteric dimension as the inherently more mystical of the
> two, since it is generally characterized by a monistic realization of an
> inclusive, absolute, undifferentiated unity or supreme identity that can
> only be spoken of through symbols and myths, allegories and metaphors.
> Accordingly, it is at the esoteric level that the concept of the unity of
> religions is most often realized. According to Schuon, while this
> realization is potentially available in any tradition or culture, only a
> small minority of people in any given tradition ever achieve it.
Even though he was male, I still think Jung helps fill in the
picture here. Basically the above description is of
introversion and the below is of extraversion, as applied to
religious truth. Extraverts are in the majority generally, so
most religions are dominated by those who look without for
spiritual certainty rather than within. (Infallible
institutions rather than individual conscience).
In
> contrast, the exoteric dimension is concerned with doctrines and dogmas,
> devotion to forms and ceremonies, and concerned with logical proofs and
> concrete images. The exoteric level is usually characterized by a
> monotheistic or dualistic exclusivism that recognizes, as correct, one
> concrete form or expression over others. At the exoteric level, for
> example, Islam is proclaimed to be the only true religion. It is at this
> level that the world's religions are perceived to be both bewilderingly
> diverse and mutually exclusive.
>
> Schuon sees the esoteric and exoteric dimensions as embodied in two
> distinct personality types found within all religious traditions, with the
> majority of religious adherents being exoteric. This is very similar to the
> philosopher of religion T. Patrick Burke's discussion of the "popular" or
> "devotional" (exoteric) and "reflective" (esoteric) aspects of religion.
> Like Schuon, Burke argues that the reflective (esoteric) personality type
> has more in common with its counter parts in other religious traditions
> than it shared commonality with those within its own tradition.
This is the basic rallying cry of the Theosophical Society.
"To form a nucleus of universal brotherhood" while studying
"comparative religion, science and philosophy" in order to
"investigate the hidden laws of nature and the powers innate in
humanity." Starting out with the assumption that there is
theosophy in all traditions and that its adherents have more in
common with one another than with their exoteric
coreligionists, Blavatsky and co. built an international
society by attracting a diverse membership who shared this
ideal.
The same is
> true for the devotional (exoteric) personality. In other words, these
> distinctions cut across religions traditions. Both Schuon and Burke argue
> that both dimensions are essential or needed elements within each religious
> tradition. The esoteric side keeps alive the sense of mystery and provides
> a questioning dynamic that gives life to a religious tradition. The
> exoteric side provides stability, security and a sense of direction.
> Furthermore, all esoterics were once exoterics. The esoterics, with their
> questions and more mystical orientation keep the exoterics "stirred up" and
> engaged in the dynamic life of spirituality. The exoterics remind the
> esoterics of their spiritual roots and the importance of the community.
>
> Perhaps we can think of these two dimensions less as polar opposites and
> more in terms of elements of a dynamic interaction similar to the Chinese
> concept of the yin and yang forces, or in Tantric terms, the male and
> female energies needed for life to continue in all its dynamic diversity.
But that's what polar opposites are! Following the Jungian
model, we're all made up of dynamic interaction between
thinking and feeling, intuition and sensation, introversion and
extraversion. Polarities are an inevitable part of any such
model. I don't see, though, that exoteric religionists have
much capacity for finding common ground with those of other
traditions, not nearly as much as esotericists do.
>
> Given this brief excursion into the work of Schuon, the Baha'i Faith like
> any other religious tradition, contains both dimensions. While for some, it
> is tempting to characterized the Baha'i faith as more exoteric or
> legalistic, I would argue that this has more to do with Western practice.
Any religion that says your #1 obligation is to recognize the
one and only legitimate spiritual authority figure and your #2
obligation is to obey everything he says is clearly
predominantly exoteric/legalistic. That has to do with
Baha'u'llah's teaching and not with its adaptation in any
particular place.
> As a Baha'i from a Jewish background once put it to me, "the Baha'i Faith
> in America is a white Protestant religion." If we turn to the writings,
> however, we find abundant instances of the esoteric dimension. In fact,
> Baha'u'llah even encourages us to take a more esoteric perspective.
> Certainly the mere existence of the _Kitab-i-Iqan_ or _Seven Valleys_
> serves as a testimony to this point. I have often thought that the Baha'i
> Faith is an attempt to mainline the esoteric dimension, that is, to
> incorporate the esoteric perspective into the community at large, and not
> merely keeping it the realm of a few elite practioners. For instance, the
> unity of religion doctrine in all its complexity and associated concepts (a
> more esoteric perspective) is a fundamental Bahai teaching, and is one that
> every Bahai accepts, no matter how simplistically conceived.
>
And the way it is conceived is pretty exoteric as far as I can
tell-- doing backflips making a Theist of the Buddha, for
example.
> On the other hand, even so-called esoteric practices have their legalistic
> side. Zen Buddhism, Adviata Hinduism, and Sufism while clearly more
> mystical in their orientations, embody a disciplined life often governed by
> a code of conduct or a rigid ceremonial practice, or certain acceptable or
> traditional practices.
But those are for intentional communities and not for society
at large. While not interested in joining such a group, I'm
not threatened by them in the same way as by groups that want
to impose their regulations on the whole world-- as do
fundamentalist Christians, Muslims and Baha'is.
Furthermore, I have met, in my time, rather dogmatic
> and rigid Sufis, Zen Buddhists, and Hindus who held rather exclusivistic
> views.
Sure, that illustrates one of my favorite Jungian concepts,
enantiodromia, the tendency of things to metamorphize into
their opposites. Theosophists can certainly be dogmatists and
authoritarians, despite a vast body of writings denouncing
these qualities. But they're a lot more likely to run into
stiff resistance from their fellow-members than are exoteric
religionists with such traits.
>
BTW, do you know what the scandal is/was about Schuon's
treatment of his disciples? I heard tell of it several years
back but never found out what is supposed to have occurred.
Thanks for your interesting thoughts.
Paul
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:04:39 -0900
To: "Blah Blah Blah" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: epiphanies and reverence, doubts and fears/ was, conscience...
Dear Eric,
Were I an Enlish teacher marking your letter as a piece of
creative writing, you'd come in second behind Bud Polk. But I'm not...
Especially liked...
>Sometimes I feel like a little hobo wandering along kicking up puffs
>of dust and pondering the loneliness of the tumblweeds on a desolate
>stretch of the great cyber-railroad of life, and then suddenly along
>comes a huge roaring train of thought on talisman, and wooosh!, it's
>gone before I can even begin to get the dirt out of my eyes and figure
>out what it was all about!
Re:
>BTW on a lighter note Robert, I saw your photo (cool haircut!) in the
>Summer 1995 NZ Baha'i "Forum" magazine that Dan loaned me .
The photo was taken some years ago at Alison and Steve's wedding at which I
was a kitchen hand. Y'see ol' buddy, things ain't what they seem. Even
Sonja and are VERY good friends, though she puts on a frosty facade, just
to keep Sen happy.
I'm going
>to try to keep liking you even though you can't seem to resist making
>the occasional disgusting little niggling comment about Tony Lee or
>Juan Cole on talisman.
And you aren't being disgusting? ;-} But -- hey -- hate me if you wish.
Or even forget that I exist. True lovers will always find one another, and
I cannot be perpetually walking on egg shells in the hope that you'll be my
friend. Last night -- and I'm just through telling our new friend (my old
friend) Adrian this as we sipped/slurped diet cokes (his plastic, mine
aluminium: "And that's the difference between us, " I said.) at lunch -- I
dreamed about a big black dog with an ant-eater nose lurking on the path
outside of a Maori house. A bit scared, I walked on the other side of the
street. The dog then because smaller and started running around the
neighbourhood with amazing elastic legs. I could see that it was
well-loved and extremely charming. Adrian -- the soul of insight -- said
that he could see that both these images fitted me. (We applied the
gestalt technique to the analysis) . So y'see Eric, m'amigo, in my
heaviness I am very indigenous/authentic, and in my lightness I am an
innocent and loveable child with springy ways. So that's OK, unless you've
got bourgeois spectacles. I figure that people I don't get along with are
fundamentally humourless. These people will find me rather childish and/or
boorish... As for Juan and Tony... They're my friends. Just because they
don't speak to me these days it doesn't mean that we're not linked on
deeply intuitive levels. Also, I feel certain we read each others letters,
despite what we'll tell you at any given time. (eh Juan?) The surest
proof that I am their friend is that I bother at all to respond to what
they say...
Regarding your relationship with the House. Why should be interested? It
is your concern. And while you have flattered me regarding my attitude
towards the House, I am not so silly that I have assumed that your
assessment of this is any more significant than the fragrance of a rose to
a big by-passing black dog with an ant-eater nose.
Robert.
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:55:46 -0900
To: Stephen Johnson , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: science and religion
ffolks,
The most amazing realisation that I am coming to is that I really just
don't have to be particularly interested when people cling to views
contrary to those given in the Writings. If, for instance, someone says
that Darwin was right and 'Abdu'l-Baha was wrong, I do not have to be THAT
concerned --just as I have decided to leave to themselves those who have
fabricated for themselves pretexts for disobeying the House. Hey it ain't
MY concern, any more than graffitti on the subway is. Go do it friends, if
it makes you high! Remember: one of earliest adult heroes was William
Blake who wrote that if a fool, should persists in his folly he will become
wise. Come back and "talk serious" when you're through with these tedious
disputes....
...purest love,
Robert (a big black dog with an ant-eater nose) Johnston.
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 13:16:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: primary source materials
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Juan, Payam and Tony,
Good to hear your voices again. I missed you all.
And many thanks for your detailed discussion of the Salmani's
episode -- very interesting reading.
What I wanted to establish was that the position outlined by
Juan, namely, there maybe instances when ones conscience does not
allow one to obey a directive of the House, is not a practical
possibility. Tony and Payam have very nicely demonstrated that.
Its one thing to get on the computer and act brave and defiant,
its a whole different thing to get a phone call from Haifa and
have to respond. No Baha'i will ever, never, not in a million
years, in good conscience be able to say no! to the House.
That's a practical impossibility.
I wanted to demonstrate that by Juan's own example as I also knew
the details of Salmani's case and I apologize for goading our
good friends on the West Coast into a response.
The fact is that faced with a directive from Haifa, Tony and
Payam, excellent and devoted believers that they are, responded
by obeying and trying to find a way to meet the instructions
(even though it came in form of a phone call from some staff
member of the Research Dept) -- as any believer would do,
including my brother Juan himself. That was my point. QED.
As far as Salmani's narrative is concern, it suffers from the
problems as any other primary source document:
1. its of interest to a limited segment of community (more like a
handful of scholars). Payam, rightly, asked the question this
morning if there had been troubles in the community because of
publication of Salmani's memoir. My response is: has anyone
actually read it? I'll bet very few folks on Talisman (less than
10% ?) have read Salmani's memoir. Now by this comment, I don't
mean to belittle Kalimat Press' effort or their massive
investment in this project, but a news flash: not too many
Baha'is read this sort of historical books.
2. Juan is right in saying that I strongly advocate opening
Baha'i archives (especially Haifa's), but I do not necessarily
support publication of such items. Most of these narratives were
written by people that though eyewitness to certain events, but
had an ax to grind against somebody. In case of Salmani its his
great dislike (rightly so!) of Azal. I think the reason that the
House wanted to stop the publication or later asked for a few
passages to be removed was not to tarnish the memory of this
servant of Baha'u'llah (the sin covering eye), because in a few
places Salmani is a real embarrassment to himself!
It wasn't Baha'u'llah's reputation or the good name of the Cause
that was going to be tarnished, but Salmani himself. For
example, what possible real, meaningful scholarship could be
gained from Salmani's derogatory comments about Azal's wives!
Salmani hated Azal and his entire family (for all the right
reasons) but he couldn't see the damage that he was doing to
himself with his actions and comments. Abdu'l-Baha advised him
against it, to no avail.
All of early historical manuscript that I've seen, suffer from
these sort of shortcomings.
So, its a real dilemma: does one leave out a certain passages to
protect the author himself, or one proceed and let it all hang
out? As a reader, of course, I want to read *all* there is:
good, bad and ugly. As a writer though (with sole interest of
promoting the best interest of the Faith) a different set of
responsibilities sets in
Salmani's example is actually very mild compared to certain other
manuscripts -- read Shahmirzadi's and see what I mean. Wild
stories about miracles by Quddus and Mulla Husayn (and a few
others) that you can't find in any sciencefiction!
best regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:16:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Stephen Johnson
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Happy Holiday Wishes.
Friends,
I will be unsubscribing for a short time. I have just contacted my
father for the first time since I was 2 in order to ask for permission to
marry this June. I will be spending the next couple weeks meeting half
of my family I have never seen. Obviously I cannot spend a couple hours
a day on talisman then. I will resubscribe when I return.
All prayers are appreciated during this eventful time.
God Bless,
stephen johnson
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:46:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: talisman
Subject: Censorship / I read Salmani's book
Ahang writes, "Payam, rightly, asked the question this morning if there
had been troubles in the community because of publication of Salmani's
memoir. My response is: has anyone actually read it? I'll bet very few
folks on Talisman (less than 10% ?) have read Salmani's memoir."
I respond in indignation: not only have i read it, i have tried to foist
it upon others multiple times, exclaiming, perhaps
less-than-granidloquently, "Read this cool thing, it's great!" And I have
been following this discussion about the narrative with great interest,
because I had known none of this stuff. OK, so, why do I like the book so
much: I wish to explain this because I think my reasons for liking the
book directly support many of the veiws expressed in the past few days.
First, I am often less than fulfilled with many of the Baha'i texts
available to me. I look at my ever-growing collection of Baha'i texts and
see three things: I see a few, maybe 20, primary sources. I see another
few, maybe 15, academic works. I mean the nice, scholarly stuff, the kind
I could cite in a bibliography. The rest, the great majority, is
secondary non-scholarly stuff that seems to account for 95% of what
Baha'i publishing houses turn out. Though there are a few gems here, such
as Taherzadeh's series, most of that majority I find often represents the
things that most turn me off about religion. Watery self-help books, some
appeals-to-all historical texts, and few that add to my appreciation
of the faith. So when I first opened Salmani's memoirs, I was excited
finally to have achance to read something that was sort of a bridge
between the primary and the secondary sources. I enjoyed the reading
immensely, and wish there were more texts of its kind available. It
provided first-hand historical information that was other than a mere
rewriting of the canon. If the House has asked that some of this
narrative be excised, then, though my sense of complete obedience to the
House is not lessened an iota, I am nonetheless disappointed. It seems to
me that this would be another example, like the inaccessibility of
Nabil's narrative, of the sources I most want to read being kept hidden.
Some Talismanians have been hedging around the issue of the official
censorship of history, as Browne and MacEoin have publicly alleged. Why
not say it? In private, to other Baha'is whose faith I am not worried
about damaging, I most openly discuss this official censorship. I feel
that they need to know this about their religion, which so often they
don't. As I said, I hadn't known about this example myself. The very last
thing that I will do is conceal the existence of censorship with yet more
covering-up. The history of the Faith cannot be studied completely because
many of the primary sources are locked-up, and if we deny this or skirt
about it then we are merely compounding the problem. I was aghast when I
read the publich debate between Hatcher and MacEoin in _Religion_, and
read the chastisement of Hatcher by the journal's editors, because I could
not help but agree fully with the editors! I will not really object to
this cencorship, because I do have complete faith in the House as the best
source of authority in the world. My obedience to and faith in the House
is all the more reason that I will be open about the fact that we Baha'is
conceal our history.
-Jonah
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 21:26:34
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Safa Sadeghpour
Subject: Re: Remey's Profession
As John said, Remey was an architect. He died in 1974, I think, at
age 100 or 101. He died in Florence, Italy, I believe. He apparently
wrote two will and testaments appointing two successor guardians, much
to both men's surprise and anger. Needless to say, the result was
schism in hhis movement.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Remey's Profession
Author: Safa Sadeghpour at INTERNET
Date: 12/13/95 3:47 PM
Salutations,
This question might sound absolutely odd, but does anyone know
what was Mason Remey's profession, and also what year and
where he died?
Thanks.
Safa
PS: I would appreciate if you could reply by private email since I don't
think there might be a widespread interest in this question. ;)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"My goal is simple. It is complete understanding of the universe, why it as
it is and why it exists as all." - Stephen Hawking
"Truth decays into beauty, while beauty soon becomes merely charm. Charm
ends up as strangeness, and even that doesn't last, but up and down are
forever." - The Laws of Physics
"The shining spark of truth comes forth only from the clash of differing
opinions." Abdu'l-Baha
Safa Sadeghpour (think@ucla.edu)
http://www.smc.edu/homepage/maclab/maclab.web/web/safa.web/safa.htm
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:00:48 EST
Subject: poem
DID IT YOUR WAY huh?
The three paths,
that do not lead,
to Four and Seven Valleys.
Hollywood Boulevard,
Pennsylvania Avenue,
and Wall Street.
Watch your step now!
that's where the
whole world does lean,
the Wall I mean.
Looks like,
it's rumbling.
Money makes the world go around,
we spinn and spinn,
and all fall down.
Then, welcome 'new world'!
You think I'll see it?
Hope just the beginning,
at least!
lovingly,
*** ***
* *
*
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Evolution
To: cfarhoum@osf1.gmu.edu (Cheshmak A Farhoumand)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 23:18:29 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Cheshmak: 14 December 1995
I'm no scientist, but around fifteen years ago I read a paper
on *The Evolution of the Human Brain* written by a Baha'i who later
became one of the few marine lichenologists in the world.
Last I heard he was teaching down in Arizona. (His first
name is Bruce. Perhaps Curt DuBois could supply his last name? Or Tom
Cicchitti--is he online?)
All I remember from this paper were two scientific concepts
that seemed to dovetail quite nicely into `Abdu'l-Baha's approach.
These two concepts are:
(1) Gene flow.
(2) *Ontogeny recapitulates phyllogeny.*
Gene flow refers to the idea that the genetic history of each
species is unique. Here, the evolutionary tree is not a series of
grafted branches, but of continuous lines flowing from root to twig.
Man's genetic history is continuous and distinct because the same is
true for all other creatures as well.
*Ontogeny* relates to the development of the individual, while
*Phyllogeny* pertains to the phyllum. (A new phyllum has just been
discovered--a strange funnel-shaped parasite that lives on the lips of
lobsters.) So, the evolutionary transformations of the phyllum are not
unlike the transformations in the genesis and development of the
individual. The metamorphoses of the fetus was, as you recall,
`Abdu'l-Baha's favorite proof as to why man was still man even when he
looked like a fish.
Hope this gives you a couple of leads, Cheshmak.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 20:27:43 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Safa Sadeghpour
Subject: Interesting info
Salutations,
Well, the reason I was asking about Remey's profession
is this message, and wanted to make
sure it referred to the same person:
* In June, the Iowa State Historical Society finally opened long-
embargoed boxes of self-published, highly-detailed,
autobiographical journals donated by a not-particularly-prominent
architect named Charles Remey, who died in 1979 and who was
apparently obsessed with making sure the public was not denied
his life story. In describing the collection, a Des Moines
Register writer wrote that one of the volumes, "The Wardrobe of
Gertrude Heim Remey," Charles's wife, was "quite likely the
best book ever written about his wife's clothes." [Des Moines
Register, 6-7-95]
Does anyone know what his wife's name was? This might
help discover to which Remey this message is referring
to.
Take care.
Safa
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"My goal is simple. It is complete understanding of the universe, why it as
it is and why it exists as all." - Stephen Hawking
"Truth decays into beauty, while beauty soon becomes merely charm. Charm
ends up as strangeness, and even that doesn't last, but up and down are
forever." - The Laws of Physics
"The shining spark of truth comes forth only from the clash of differing
opinions." Abdu'l-Baha
Safa Sadeghpour (think@ucla.edu)
http://www.smc.edu/homepage/maclab/maclab.web/web/safa.web/safa.htm
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: primary source materials
To: rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com (Ahang Rabbani)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 23:34:12 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Ahang writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Salmani's example is actually very mild compared to certain other
manuscripts -- read Shahmirzadi's and see what I mean. Wild
stories about miracles by Quddus and Mulla Husayn (and a few
others) that you can't find in any science fiction!
____________
Ahang, could you elaborate on these memoirs, and list the
unpublished memoirs relating to Baha'u'llah as written by His companions?
Which of them, if any, would you recommend for translation? Can any of
these manuscripts be obtained?
I believe several months ago Juan had posted a short list of
these historical sources, but unfortunately I can't locate that post.
But I got the impression that most, if not all of them, are under lock
and key. Has that situation changed?
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:05:44 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Conscience
On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Juan R Cole wrote:
> I would define "blind obedience" or taqlid as a relinquishment of one's
> own powers of judgment in favor of some authority's. It seems to me that
> this abdication of personal responsibility for one's conscience is
> roundly condemned in the Baha'i writings, over and over again.
[...]
> The world is very complex, and
> individuals occupy conflicting ethical niches.
The subject *is* complex. For example, the Guardian in one of his World
Order letters describes some of the characteristics of a civilization that
abandons religion, and among the "most revolting aspects" are that
"... confidence is shaken, the nerves of discipline are relaxed, the voice
of human conscience is stilled..." (WOB 187) He also decries the
conscience of humans, being in the grasp of other humans: "... so soon as
the full measure of the stupendous claim of the Faith of Baha'u'llah
comes to be recognized by those time-honored and powerful strongholds of
orthodoxy, whose deliberate aim is to maintain their stranglehold over the
thoughts and consciences of men ... " (WOB 17)
On the other hand there are limits to the conscience. The Guardian wrote
about absolute pacifists, who defy their governments:
"With reference to the absolute pacifists, or conscientious
objectors to war; their attitude, judged from the Baha'i
standpoint, is quite anti-social and due to its
exaltation of the individual conscience leads inevitably
to disorder and chaos in society. Extreme pacifists
are thus very close to the anarchists, in the sense
that both these groups lay an undue emphasis on the rights
and merits of the individual. The Baha'i conception of
social life is essentially based on the principle of
the subordination of the individual will to that of
society. It neither suppresses the individual nor
does it exalt him to the point of making him an
anti-social creature, a menace to society. As in
everything it follows the 'golden mean.'
(Unfolding Destiny, p. 435)
In the "Dispensation," the Guardian says that the guidance that flows to
the Universal House of Justice is accessed by the members, when they
consult their conscience. He says that they should consult the friends,
but should be guided by their conscience, not by the views, or even the
convictions, of the friends. To me this means that in addition to
whatever refinement of personal conscience these men have attained, it is
in their inmost thoughts that the guidance of God flows to the House.
Now, as was pointed out, we have to reach some to even imagine a conflict
between our own conscience and the guidance of the House. We all have to
find our own way through the Writings, and through trial and error,
prayer and meditation, find our day-by-day application of how we are
going to put together these principles in our own way. And it is not for
any of us to declare that the way somebody else has done so isn't proper;
obviously, none of us has Universal Mind. The Manifestation does, so to
me, implicit in becoming a Baha'i is an acknowledgement that my
conscience is an imperfect tool to get me through this life:
"He (the Guardian) was very sorry to hear that ... has
left the Cause, and suggests that you point out to her,
and to any other of the friends who are confused and
upset over this matter, that the Manifestation of God
only gives us teachings and instructions designed for
our good and protection, and that if each person
reserves the right to obey his own conscience, the
logical conclusion is we don't need any spiritual
authority to guide and protect us, the authority of
our own consciences is sufficient!"
(Unfolding Destiny, p. 444)
So each of us strives to find this balance. I figure that anybody who
translates this into deeds is way beyond anybody who figures out the
right beliefs to have on the subject.
Brent
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:11:25 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: QUANTA'S HOME PAGE
On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, QUANTA DAWNLIGHT wrote:
> Here it is folks,
> You can see Quanta at her cyberhome!
> http://fllab.chass.ncsu.edu/~dawnliqu/test.htm
So, why don't we all mail you our photograph, and you can add us *all* to
your home page, and we can all see just how glorious we all look.
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:36:46 -0700 (MST)
From: "S. Indiogine"
To: Stephen Johnson
Cc: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: science and religion
I am curious:
On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Stephen Johnson wrote:
[snip]
> To my knowledge there are some aspects of the evolution of species which
> do not fit into the little package which Darwin has wrapped for us.
> Please do not read this as an effort to debunk Darwin. I think the same
> of Darwin's theory as I do of Newton's theory.
Which of Newton's theories are you talking about? The Law of Universal
Gravitation or the Laws of Dynamics?
> Both theories were
> complete for their time, in that they explained all of the data which was
> available. However, there seem to be too many holes in some of the
> specifics (I'll elaborate if asked).
Please do, I really want to know. I am refering to the Theory of
Evolution in its general sense as proposed by Darwin and integrated by
discoveries that very made after Darwin like: genetics and molecular
biology. As far as I know all discoveries made after Darwin, fossils,
genetics, molecular biology have only time after time proven the theory
of evolution right.
> I think that Darwin's theory is a
> nice starting place (as was Newton's) and I believe that both men were
> geniuses in their own right at their own time. But, last I checked,
> Darwin is not infallable and I believe that as the years progress we will
> end up adding more and more to this basis which Darwin composed.
>
> Just my own (completely falsifiable) theory,
> stephen
Thanks.
Eric Indiogine (sindiogi@nmsu.edu), Dept. Civil, Agricultural,
and Geological Engineering, New Mexico State University,
Las Cruces, New Mexico, U.S.A.
## True loss is for him whose days have been ##
## spent in utter ignorance of his self ##
-* Baha'u'llah, Words of Wisdom #21 *-
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 23:46:48 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Homosexuality
To: talisman@indiana.edu
My friends will kindly forgive me as I invoke the privilege of a
professional philosopher and pontificate about things that I know
nothing about. Steve Birkland proposed that we try to reach some
policy recommendations, so kindly consider the following one
attempt.
******
Rather than argue about texts, we might for a moment consider what
possible purpose the prohibition on homosexual practice might serve.
Presumably, since it is a social law, it must be intended either (A) to
prevent harm to (1) the individual, (2) other individuals, (3) the Baha'i
community, or (4) the larger community or (B) to provide benefit to
one of the above.
A) Preventing harm
1) to the individual himself.
Such harm would be either (a) physical or (b) psychological.
There is some merit to (a) given the spread of AIDS
and other sexually transmitted diseases. Strictly speaking the harm
is not in the homosexual practices as such but in so-called "unsafe sex."
Since some heterosexuals practice such things and some homosexuals
do not, the objection would presumably be to the practices and not to the
homosexuality as such. (b) also has some merit, but the psychological
harm seems to result more from conflict between homosexuality and
social norms and expectations than from the homosexuality as such. Thus,
societal acceptance of homosexuality would presumably end most
psychological harm associated with homosexuality.
2) to other individuals:
It is hard to see what harm comes to another person from one
person's homosexuality. I may find homosexual practices personally
unappealing, but surely even so no real harm comes to me.
3) to the Baha'i community:
Any harm specific to the Baha'i community would be as a result
of the larger society's disapproval of homosexuality. That would make
the prohibition a matter of wisdom, not of principle. However, only in
extreme cases can an abandonment of tolerance be accepted in a Baha'i
context, even if it bring social disapproval. In this case, however,
opinion among those that the community is attempting to appeal to
tends to be sympathetic to homosexuals, so it is arguable that
wisdom would dictate acceptance rather than rejection of homosexuality.
4) to society as a whole:
The real question is what harm homosexuality might cause to
society. It presumably does reduce the birth rate, which certainly cannot
be considered a major problem these days. A rather more reasonable
candidate for harmfulness is the male homosexual lifestyle in its
promiscuous form. That would seem to be objectionable on much the
same grounds as heterosexual promiscuity: that it is socially disruptive
and medically unhealthy--probably more unhealthy than heterosexual
promiscuity. This could be used to justify either a prohibition of
homosexual activity (since it does not have the redeeming virtue of
being necessary for reproduction) or some kind of social control--i.e.,
homosexual marriage. Other possible damage to society imputed to
homosexuality--pederasty, rape, etc.--would seem to involve the
sexual crimes themselves, not the homosexuality as a whole.
B) Providing some benefit
It might also be argued that prohibiting homosexual activity provides
some positive benefit, apart from preventing harm. The only possibility
that comes to mind at the moment is encouraging spiritual growth in the
individual through self-denial. I don't see how such an argument can be
made in a Baha'i context, where neither celibacy in particular or asceticism in
general are seen as spiritually useful.
Apart from the question of harm and benefit, there is the scientific
question of the cause of homosexuality. Whatever may be the ultimate
outcome of scientific investigations of the subject, it is clear that (a) an
individual's homosexuality (or heterosexuality) is generally not under
his conscious control, and (b) there is no accepted medical method that
turns homosexuals into heterosexuals. One may well be discovered
eventually, but none is now known.
That brings us back to the question of what the logic of the Baha'i law is.
The underlying texts of Baha'u'llah are euphemistic, and therefore not
very clear. They certainly do condemn pederasty. Shoghi Effendi
read them, citing the medical science of his time, as condemning
homosexuality in general as unnatural. The House's statements have
simply been citations of Shoghi Effendi's letters. That leaves us with
several interpretive problems:
Natural vs. unnatural:
First, one must consider whether Shoghi Effendi's
reading was dependent on the medical science of his day. If it was, then
does his statement remain operative when the scientific concensus shifts,
as it has done?
Interpretation vs. legislation:
Under which of these rubrics ought the
matter of homosexuality be considered? The House of Justice, after all,
was established to legislate on matters where there was not explicit
revealed law and to deal with no situations.
Are acts or a state of being condemned?
The justifications for condemning
homosexuality seem to refer mainly to a promiscuous lifestyle, not to the
state itself. Thus, one might be able to make a case for homosexual
marriage within the Baha'i community but not for promiscuous
homosexuality.
An approach to dealing with the question of homosexuality might be
as follows:
1) Baha'u'llah condemned homosexual acts under certain conditions, but
it is not clear what these conditions are, apart from pederasty.
2) Shoghi Effendi, based on early 20th cent. medical science, extended
Baha'u'llah's text to make it a condemnation homosexuality in general.
3) The scientific basis for Shoghi Effendi's ruling has not been sustained
by more recent scientific investigation. (The scientific study of sexuality
is a field that has advanced tremendously since then.) Certainly, the
solution--medical assistance--that he recommended is not now
considered realistic by experts.
4) In the absence of a Guardian, the matter is certainly within the
legislative authority of the House of Justice.
5) The harmful effects of homosexuality, so far as we now know, arise
from promiscuity rather than homosexuality as such.
6) Therefore, the House might legalize homosexual marriage, either
absolutely, or experimentally in some jurisdiction (California?), or by
special dispensation (as Catholics handle divorce),.or in
places where homosexual marriage is legally recognized. In other words,.
homosexuals would be subjected to the same Baha'i laws as heterosexuals.
7) Should a "cure" for homosexuality be discovered eventually, the matter
can be reconsidered in the light of new scientific evidence and social
conditions then prevailing.
8) If homosexual marriage turned out for some reason to be a bad idea,
it could be abolished again, as has already been done with polygyny.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:41:58 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Safa Sadeghpour
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, Payam Afsharian
Subject: Re: Interesting info
> his life story. In describing the collection, a Des Moines
> Register writer wrote that one of the volumes, "The Wardrobe of
> Gertrude Heim Remey," Charles's wife, was "quite likely the
> best book ever written about his wife's clothes." [Des Moines
> Register, 6-7-95]
> Does anyone know what his wife's name was? This might
> help discover to which Remey this message is referring
> to.
Payam, is this the wife who committed suicide? He was only married one
time, right?
=END=
From: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Subject: Re: evolution
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:02:14 -0600 (CST)
Dear John you wrote:
> demonstrated the capacity to do it twice. The big bang is not restricted
> scientifically to the condition that all species come from the same gene,
> some in the scientific community have prided their conclusion that all
> life originated from the same dna, thus man was an animal, yet there is
> no physical evidence to support this, if Abdul Baha were not infallible,
> we would not know.
The inference that life has a common origin is based, in large part, on
genetic homologies between species. This, per se, does not mean that they
absolutely must have derived from the same source, but this conclusion seems
eminently more reasonable than assuming lots of separate events. As for
Abdu'l Baha's infallibity on this issue, I think the comments he was making in
SAQ were highly metaphysical in nature and not a biological treatise as such.
The separateness of the "Reality" of man from other life forms throughout
geological time is not scientifically testable in any way and as such remains
an article of Faith.
So we don't have to stress to a non-Baha'i that Abdul
> Baha is infallible, but we certainly can point out that if the Big Bang
> created a life giving molecule it could have created multiple life giving
> molecules, we Baha'is don't have to force our listeners to call the Big
> Bang God's handiwork, nor do we have to force them to concieve of life
> originating from several separate forces, but we can insist that there is
> no proof of only one life embarking molecule, because their is no proof
> of it!
Even if one wanted to talk about 10 life-originating molecules and just say
that it was mere "coincidence" that so many mice genes happened to be
identical or nearly identical to human, this really wouldn't help establish
the separateness of human beings from animals in the eyes of someone who
wans't "metaphysically inclined". In other words if A gives rise to B gives
rise to ....F and Alpha gives rise to Beta and eventually gives rise to F. F
is still F despite a different origin.
Respectfully,
Ken
>
>
> haukness@tenet.edu
> 2015 Bay St. N.
> Texas City, TX 77590
> voice/fax 409-948-6074
> One planet one people please!
>
>
> On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Cheshmak A Farhoumand wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Dear friends, i need your help please. The other day, the director of the
> > office i work in e-mailed me to ask if Baha'is believe in evolution. This
> > was very exciting as this lady does not like organized religion, is an
> > agnostic, but really likes the Faith and i think in some subtle way is
> > drawn to it. She is starting to ask questions about the Baha'i view on
> > different matters. I reviewed the chapters in Some Answered Questions and
> > e-mailed her back but i don't know if the answer was adequate. the main
> > point i tried to make was that there may have been evolution within
> > 'kingdom', ie animal, vegetable, human etc, but that humans were always
> > humans despite what they may have looked like and were and are
> > distinguished from animals because of their rational mind, and their soul.
> > She wonders though if there is evidence that plants ie. algae, somehow
> > grew tails and became animals etc.
> >
> > THis is all getting too scientific, so i was wondering if you could
> > kindly assist me by sending me some suggested answers that are based both
> > on the Faith and on scientific findings that i might be able to forward
> > to her.
> >
> > As always, I really appreciate your assistance and look forward to your
> > responses.
> >
> > Warmest regards and gratitude.
> >
> > Cheshmak Farhoumand
> >
>
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 08:17:04+030
To: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: Re: Conscience
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>On the other hand there are limits to the conscience. The Guardian wrote
>about absolute pacifists, who defy their governments:
>
> "With reference to the absolute pacifists, or conscientious
> objectors to war; their attitude, judged from the Baha'i
> standpoint, is quite anti-social and due to its
> exaltation of the individual conscience leads inevitably
> to disorder and chaos in society. Extreme pacifists
> are thus very close to the anarchists, in the sense
> that both these groups lay an undue emphasis on the rights
> and merits of the individual. The Baha'i conception of
> social life is essentially based on the principle of
> the subordination of the individual will to that of
> society. It neither suppresses the individual nor
> does it exalt him to the point of making him an
> anti-social creature, a menace to society. As in
> everything it follows the 'golden mean.'
> (Unfolding Destiny, p. 435)
>
Would this mean that Gandhi's approach of passive non-obedience was an
anarchists approach? If it was, let's hear it for the anarchists (I always
suspected they had a role to play!) Would that mean that the Baha'is in
Germany had to partake in turning in the Jews and other socially undesirable
elements of German society, such as the mentally handicapped, in order to
submit to the society and authority of the Government, or would a higher
loyalty of obedience., ie., the law of God, prevail? Doesn't it involve
conscience to decide between the two? Did Shoghi Effendi really say that
the Baha'i conception of social life is essentially based on the principle
of the subordination of the individual will to that of society, or is this
someone's paraphrasing? (It seems uncharacteristically short for Shoghi
Effendi.)
The "Golden Mean" in art terms, I think, talks about a classical balance of
elements. If it is the same in your terms of reference, does that mean
Baha'is should follow a balance of elements in the presence of genocide,
such as in Rwanda where the government actively groomed a "hit squad" and
prepared the propoganda to turn the Hutu into a killing machine aimed at the
Tutsi, or do we make a choice of conscience which follows a higher calling?
Which part of society do we allow ourselves to be subordinate to?
>In the "Dispensation," the Guardian says that the guidance that flows to
>the Universal House of Justice is accessed by the members, when they
>consult their conscience. He says that they should consult the friends,
>but should be guided by their conscience, not by the views, or even the
>convictions, of the friends. To me this means that in addition to
>whatever refinement of personal conscience these men have attained, it is
>in their inmost thoughts that the guidance of God flows to the House.
>
>Now, as was pointed out, we have to reach some to even imagine a conflict
>between our own conscience and the guidance of the House. We all have to
>find our own way through the Writings, and through trial and error,
>prayer and meditation, find our day-by-day application of how we are
>going to put together these principles in our own way. And it is not for
>any of us to declare that the way somebody else has done so isn't proper;
>obviously, none of us has Universal Mind. The Manifestation does, so to
>me, implicit in becoming a Baha'i is an acknowledgement that my
>conscience is an imperfect tool to get me through this life:
>
> "He (the Guardian) was very sorry to hear that ... has
> left the Cause, and suggests that you point out to her,
> and to any other of the friends who are confused and
> upset over this matter, that the Manifestation of God
> only gives us teachings and instructions designed for
> our good and protection, and that if each person
> reserves the right to obey his own conscience, the
> logical conclusion is we don't need any spiritual
> authority to guide and protect us, the authority of
> our own consciences is sufficient!"
> (Unfolding Destiny, p. 444)
>
>So each of us strives to find this balance. I figure that anybody who
>translates this into deeds is way beyond anybody who figures out the
>right beliefs to have on the subject.
I agree with you. Each person must decide how they will act upon their
conscience. But it is still a matter of conscience...whether to give
absolute obedience to the House, or to deny their absolute authority. A
third path of conscience is to obey having faith in the conscience of the
House, and then continue a dialogue to explore the thinking, the purpose,
and possible lack of information on the part of the House, or possible lack
of information on the part of the individual. Hopefully, the House will be
generous enough to indulge our lack of understanding, and without wasting
too much precious time on individual concerns, recognize a pattern of
questioning (such as the issue of censorship) and address this issue in a
spirit of consultation, loving guidance and openness. If they find room in
their decision to alter their decisions, it is also within their right and
duty to do so. I have no question in my mind that the members of the House,
in consultation as the House (not as individuals) have the power, mandate,
and authority to do so. If this process should break down, then we are in
trouble.
For myself, I believe firmly in the integrity of this process. If I did
not, I could not possibly be a Baha'i. This faith in the validity of this
process is what has allowed me through many years to overlook and forgive
the warts and hiccups which are part of our individual personalities as
members of the community of mankind, and to look beyond them to the inherent
goodness in people's hearts (including my own). In fact, when my faith in
this process was badly shaken, it was what caused me to resign. The
restoration of that Faith in this process has also encouraged me to ask for
re-instatement and to carry on within the Baha'i Community, whatever that
will mean.
As far as the Baha'i Faith being legalistic vs. mystical (and other words
and phrases which express similar sentiments) which have been expressed on
Talisman, I would propose that the Baha'i Faith is both. You can partake in
whatever amount or balance of these characteristics that you like. I have
met many people in many religions and belief systems who match their talents
and fulfill their needs from their belief system according to their
individual temperment. It is called diversity. We don't all have to be the
same, or respond the same. Some people love administration, some people
love to meditate. Some people will get turned on by the God business of
propogation, others will "teach" quietly through their lives. Sometimes
people do all of them, sometimes different things at different stages of
their lives. Sometimes people find a balance between them. There is room
for it all, and I have trouble putting it into the polarized camps it has
become.
A suggestion has been put forth about a group of scholars approaching the
house either physically or through correspondence and addressing some of
these issues. If the academics can ever agree on an approach and can,
therefore, approach the House in a spirit of co-operative (even if diverse)
problem solving, I think it is a wonderful idea, and believe it would be
welcomed by the House of Justice. (No, I don't presume to speak for the
House. I just can't imagine the House refusing to meet with a group of
sincere believers on anything so fundamentally important as censorship.)
Love,
Bev>
=END=
[end of 12/14/95 session
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------------------------------------------------------------------
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 01:04:51 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Inter-Faith dialogue pt2
Dear Friends ,
What follows is my feeble attempt to respond to the questions and
concerns of my Jewish companions last evening especially their concern about
the "sectarian " presentation of the Faith and their fears about what they
percieved as its decidedly illiberal nature .
My response was in two parts 1) the unity paradigm and its meaning - the
spirituality dimension 2) the legitimacy of constitutional democracy and
religious liberty - the social action dimension . keep in my mind I was
speaking with a Rabbi and an activist .
Tonight I wil give my response to 1) above .
As a quick aside we agreed today to have the Bahais attend a gathering at
the Jewish community center ; tour and discussion of Jewish thought and
spiritual practice . Alas we do not yet have the Mashriq u l Adhkar to return
the invitation . They were understanding .
My comments began with reference to The Kitab i Aqdas or Most Holy
Book and from Epistle " . . ye are the letters of the words and the words
of the book ." This was in the context of their elaboration of P shat ; D
rash ; and Sod .
The spiritual center of Bahai Theology and Spirituality is the Most
Holy Book and all that precedes it pours into it and all that follows
flows out of it .
The Most Holy Book is about what it means to be human in a Bahai
context . The meaning is Being ; to understand the meaning of the Most Holy
is to to be " in the Presence of Being " ( Nima you are going to wish you
had never mentioned this phrase to me .) The Book begins with an exhortation
to recognize and observe the Glory of God or the Arabic title Baha u llah
which is how the Prophet is known to Bahais . This recognition is Irfan or
the experienced knowledge of the Heart , the coming to awareness of the Glory
, which as Abrahan Heschel pointed out is about *Presence * rather than
*Essence * in Judaic thought .( as well as Shechinah or the Divine Feminine
but that is another story:) )
The recognition enjoined upon human beings by Baha ullah is the
awareness of the Presence of Being and the inseperable nature of observance
, to observe is to live ones life daily " In the Presence of Being ". This
is the goal of Baha u llah and Bahai spirituality to live each day, each
moment in a state of recognition and observance of that which is Most Holy -
the Presence of Being . Within the Bahai community it has two poles
symbolized by the House of Worship reflecting the Unity of God and the House
of Justice reflecting the unity of humankind . Both of these institutional
poles have an esoteric and an exoteric reality .
The Most Holy Book in turn is a symbol of the Book of Revelation or the
Book of God . In this light we are " the letters of the words and the words
of the book " . Though I added Bahais have yet to explore much of the
significance of this reality .
The central reality of the "Most Holy" for Bahais is the Unity of God
- we too are monotheists - and the unity of humankind . By implication
these two unities imply a third unity , the unity of religion . As each
religion is a way to be human , to elucidate the *meaning * of what it is and
means to be human each of the religions ( plural ) is a form of meaning and
reflect an essential unity in the *Book * of God . They are expressions of
that which is "Most Holy " . It is this truth which Bahais are committed to
recognizing and observing both individually and in community . A Bahai and
by extension a Bahai community is to be a refection and Institutional
embodiment of this reality of the Unity of God , of Humankind , and
therefore of Religion .
If we think of the letters and the words we may suppose the following :
We have a series of letters kys , eht , si , ulbe . In this
particular form they have no meaning . For the meaning to "manifest" itself
the letters need to become patterned or ordered . It is the role of
prophets and great teachers to pattern the lettters inorder that the meaning
becomes manifest . If we arrange the first series of letters kys we have
sky. This serves as a symbol with a referent that has meaning . We know what
sky "is " and that it "is " more than we can say . If we arrange the other
series of leters we create additional words and have " the sky is blue "
these letters form words which in turn are arranged or patternes to make a
staement which has meaning . Interestingly the statement the sky is blue
actually limits the range of meanings of "sky " . Upon further examination
we see that the word sky is more than blue , there are aditional qualities or
attributes - Names - if you prefer which give meaning to "sky" . yet each
time we attempt to elucidate the meaning of sky we invoke additional
qualities , images , Names to do so . If we add up all these elucidations
and elaborations on the range of possible meanings for "sky " we have a
series of statements - patterned words - which begin to comprise a "book " .
When these patterned statements are about spiritual matters we have a "Most
Holy " book or a book as Baha u llah says is " the changeless Faith of God ,
eternal in the past , eternal in the future."
It is in the arranging of all these statements about " sky " that we
open the possibility of greater or more inclusive meaning as to what
constitutes "sky" . Now what would happen if we were to remove all the s
letters from our statement "the sky is blue " ? we would be left with the
following " the ky i blue. still perhaps a decipherable statement but one
that is less meaningful than if all the s letters are present . Importantly
the absence of the s lettters opens the door to conflicts over the meaning
at a very basic level of order . This is what we are experiencing in the
world currently . Suppose further that we removed all the s letters not
only from our staement but also from all the words that are in the "Book " of
meanings about sky. The "book is impoverished or rather its meaning is
diminished . We know less about the meaning of "Sky". Further let us remove
all the words in the "book " which contain the letter s . Our meaning is
diminished further with even greater potential for conflict and disorder
because now there are entire statements with letters and words missing . We
would probably begin to experience frustration in our attempts to convey the
respective meanings associated with "sky " . Some of the Names would be
missing.
If we substitute the word " sky" for the word "God" the meaning of Baha
u llah becomes more apparent . As letters are removed from the book or not
allowed there rightful place in the order of things such that the meaning
is present our sense of God "The Presence of Being" is diminished . This
analogous to the elimination of the human person or its domination by another
. It is why I believe Baha u llah referred to Justice as the "Best Beloved
of all things in my sight ." Further if we eliminate entire words from the
"book " our understanding and therefore the meaning of Being and its Presence
is diminished . If the letters are analogous to individuals , the words are
analogous to religions . What could be the possible "meaning" of a "Most
Holy Book" with letters and entire words missing from its scrolls. Thus Baha
u llah's unity paradigm as an essential feature of "meaning" and the
recognition and observance of that which is Most Holy; standing in the "
Presence of Being " or what Bahais frequenlty refer to as the Glory of God -
BAHA U LLAH. This why a Bahai and a Bahai community , if they are faithful
to Baha u llah is committed to the Unity of God ; Humankind ; and Religion .
This it sems to me is one of the "meanings" of "ye are the letters of the
words and the words of the book" - ultimately the "Most Holy Book " .
So you can see that there is no reality to the mis guided notion that Bahais
are going to "rule' or have a better "truth " or a special claim to "divine
origins' not shared by other religious . To do so would be contrary to the
heart of Baha u llah's message a betrayal of His vision. To do so would be
analogous to eliminating one or more ;letters and words from the book of the
"Most Holy". It is for this reason Baha u llah commanded and continually
reminded His folowers to "consort with the followers of all religions in
friendliness and fellowship . To the extent Bahais do this they will make a
contribution to our - that is humankinds - understanding of the Most Holy and
contribute to their own and humankinds capacity to recognize and observe the
"Presence of Being" - "the Glory of God" in daily life and assist in the
creation of not a theocracy, Bahai or otherwise, but a Theophanocracy( thanks
Juan ) a world structured around and filled with the Glory of God - the
Presence of Being .
They were decidedly more pleased with my small efforts at a non
sectarian explanation of the Faith of Baha u llah than what they had
preciously heard . At least for know it is how I understand the "desire " of
my Lord to be "known". I pray that it will contribute to furthering inter
-faith dialogue.
Next - the spiritual foundation for and how all this translates into a
spiritual democracy or an "Irfan Republic" which by its nature involves the
distinction between civil government and religious community and the
promulagation of religious and therefore political liberty.
warm regards ,
terry
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 07:07:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Who read Salmani?
Ahang, I'm not a scholar by any stretch (a scholar wannabe, maybe), but
I've read Salmani and would love to get translations of other eyewitness
accounts of our history. I agree completely with Jonah that most of what's
published doesn't suit either my needs or my interests (yet more compilations
of quotes from books I already have, for example).
Reading the account of someone who was actually _there_ during historic
events has a lot more immediate appeal to me than a boiled-down recitation
of names and dates.
Regarding "bowdlerization:" I can see where some passages might be cut so
as not to make the author seem like a jerk-- I cringe at the thought that
the stuff I've written might be published unedited (really bad prose
interspersed with some very "un-Baha'i-like" comments about places and
people). As a reader, though, I'd like to see it all. I've read Browne's
_A Year Amongst the Persians_ and can see how he came to take his wrong
turn with the Babis, for example (this of course was not published by
Baha'is).
OK, time to go back to lurking... :)
Leigh
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 00:31:58 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu
Subject: Reuters 12/13/95 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 95/12/13
> 1. 16:20 AZERBAIJAN, IRAN DISCUSS CASPIAN OIL PLAN
> 2. 14:38 FLOODS AND SNOW CUT OFF VILLAGES IN IRAN
>
>=START= XMT: 16:20 Wed Dec 13 EXP: 16:00 Sat Dec 16
>
>
> Azerbaijan, Iran discuss Caspian oil plan
> BAKU, Dec 13 (Reuter) - Azeri President Haydar Aliyev and visiting Iranian
>Deputy Foreign Minister Mahmoud Vaezi discussed the Shakh Deniz oil project but
>Tehran has still not decided whether to participate, Vaezi said on Wednesday.
> He told a news conference that Aliyev had given him new information about
>the Caspian Sea project which he would be passing on to the Iranian leadership.
> Iran has so far not responded to an offer from Azerbaijan to participate in
>Shakh Deniz after it was refused entry to a much bigger project.
> A preliminary agreement on the project was initialled between Azeri state
>oil company Socar, the British Petroleum Plc /Statoil partnership and Turkish
>oil company TPAO in June.
> SOCAR has a 40 percent stake under the current proposals with the other 60
>percent divided among the foreign shareholders.
> Russian oil company LUKoil said on Saturday it planned to take part in an
>international consortium to develop the 1.8 billion barrel oilfield.
> Company president Vagit Alekperov said LUKoil and the Russian government
>had sent a letter to the Azeri government with this proposal. He said LUKoil
>hoped for a stake of between 20 and 40 percent in the project.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 14:38 Wed Dec 13 EXP: 14:00 Sat Dec 16
>
>
> Floods and snow cut off villages in Iran
> TEHRAN, Dec 13 (Reuter) - Floods and heavy snow in central and southern
>Iran have cut off hundreds of villages, the Iranian news agency IRNA said on
>Wednesday.
> One person is known to have died in the floods in Bushehr province on the
>Gulf coast which caused damage estimated at 5.2 billion rials ($1.7 million at
>the official exchange rate), the agency said.
> In neighbouring Hormuzgan province, floods ravaged farmland, roads and
>power installations, causing damage estimated at 12.7 billion rials ($4.2
>million), it added.
> Heavy snowfall cut off nearly 200 villages in central Iran, IRNA said.
> The newspaper Kayhan said heavy snow and freezing temperatures in
>mountainous regions near Tehran were forcing wild animals move into villages to
>seek food.
>
>=END=
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:58:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Katy Lynn Henkle
Subject: subscribe
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I and my humble brother would like to subscribe to the talisman network.
Please connect us at ehesari@huey.csun.edu
Thank you very much.
Please do not connect klhenkle, the account from which this message is
sent.
Farzad and Espandiar Sanami Hesari
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 01:39:14 -0800
To: Stephen Johnson , talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Happy Holiday Wishes.
Hey, good luck Stephan on winning his approval of the marriage, and on
finding him. Enjoy your family, and we want the headline news when you
return.
Margreet
At 09:16 PM 12/14/95 -0500, Stephen Johnson wrote:
>
>Friends,
>
>I will be unsubscribing for a short time. I have just contacted my
>father for the first time since I was 2 in order to ask for permission to
>marry this June. I will be spending the next couple weeks meeting half
>of my family I have never seen. Obviously I cannot spend a couple hours
>a day on talisman then. I will resubscribe when I return.
>
>All prayers are appreciated during this eventful time.
>
>God Bless,
>
>stephen johnson
>
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:11:44 +0100 (MET)
Subject: homosexuality
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Ken,
what I said, and the questions you asked, now seem
irrelevant in the light of Safa's demonstration that a gene
without any procreative value, and even with a negative
effect on the probability of a man passing on his genes, can
still surivive in a population if carried by women. A
socially beneficial effect is thus not necessary. It would of
course be nice to demonstrate that homosexuality was
something more than a genetic defect, but I don't see that
this is possible. Although homosexuals as individuals and
the homosexual community as a sub-society do have a
socially beneficial function in many instances (in my
experience in western societies, this is evident largely in
lower aggressiveness, higher empathy and creativity), it is
impossible to say whether they had a genetic defect and
then found a social construct which enabled them to find
some sort of place and usefulness in society, or whether
they had a handy genetic difference which existed precisely
because of the usefulness of such people in a social group.
How could one tell?
The study I saw - a popular television presentation -
consisted of various rat societies of mixed sexes. These had
social structures, dominant males and top-of-the-pecking-
order females and so on, and a certain incidence of
homosexuality among weaker males. The various societies
were stressed in various ways, one being overpopulation,
and another, as I recall, being loud rock music. I would not
suggest that the same stimuli would produce the same
effect in human populations, or Singapore would be the
pink capital of Asia. Might be something in the rock music
theory... Seriously, if there is a stress effect it seems more
likely to relate to excessive agressiveness in a situation in
which this is turned inwards on the group rather than
against external challenges. The homosexuals might act
rather like the graphite rods in a reactor: a certain
proportion of homosexuals being required to prevent a
massive internal explosion. BUT - the same effect might be
achieved by altering the balance of male and female
children, which I believe occurs in some species (guppies,
I'm sure, maybe others). That's a weak point in a very
hypothetical explanation.
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 06:00:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Book review of source materials
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Chris asked an excellent question as to what source materials
there are out there (especially translation worthy) and I for one
am very excited about this question.
If we're looking for some list on this, then my view is that
Juan's list (posted a few months back) is as comprehensive as we
have. Perhaps he (or others) can locate and repost it.
But I have a slightly different suggestion: Instead of a list
which would perhaps not be of great utility to the rest of us,
let's engage in a more detailed discussion of each one of them.
The way I see this working is someone would discuss a particular
manuscript or book they are familiar with, and then others can
ask follow-up questions and get a deeper understanding about
these as-yet-untranslated materials.
This will have a couple of benefits: (1) once the friends see
the wealth of materials out there, there will be a much greater
interest in primary documents hence publishing houses will be
encouraged to print more of them, (2) Talisman would move back to
its original intent which was scholarly discussions.
This idea is a go, if and only if (as they say in math), Juan,
John and other friends would actively participate in describing
the contents of some of these documents, with the rest of us
asking questions and keeping the discussion going. What you say?
As an example (and to launch) this idea, later today, I'll offer
a book report on the much discussed, seen-by-few-only,
Zuhuru'l-Haqq, vol 3, (ZH-3). Then if there was a sustained
interest, I'll follow up with a discussion of just-received
(well, a better copy that is) ZH-4, which covers Baha'u'llah's
period 1852-64 and to my knowledge only one other Talismanian has
seen a partial copy.
I must say that I feel extremely good by a couple of postings
tonight showing folks have much enjoyed Salmani's narrative.
Bravo. We, as a community, need to more broadly support such
endeavors if we value lasting Baha'i scholarship.
By the way, if you don't own a copy of "My Memories of
Baha'u'llah", by Ustad Salmani, Kalimat Press, do yourself a
favor and get a copy today! No Baha'i library should be without
it. I urge my friends wishing to gain a glimpse of the life of
Baha'u'llah during Edirnih period to delve in this narrative.
Off looking for my copy of Zuhuru'l-Haqq. Wish me luck. As the
Persians say, a camel and his load can get lost in my study ...
love, ahang.
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:29:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: Safa Sadeghpour
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Remey's Papers
On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Safa Sadeghpour wrote:
> * In June, the Iowa State Historical Society finally opened long-
> embargoed boxes of self-published, highly-detailed,
> autobiographical journals donated by a not-particularly-prominent
> architect named Charles Remey, who died in 1979 and who was
> apparently obsessed with making sure the public was not denied
> his life story.
Remey deposited typed copies of many of his papers in various libraries,
including the New York Public Library, the Library of Congress, Yale
University, Princeton University, and yes, the Iowa Historical Society.
In each place he asked that they be closed until 1995. In the first and
last locations, he some of the papers in large wooden crates that were
sealed,
apprently welded shut, with metal strips. The New York Public Library is
trying to figure out some way of opening these without damaging the
contents. Some volumes of the Remey papers have already been made
available in certain libraries, such as Yale and the NYPL (which received
two sets of these), probably
because they lost the records that document the restrictions on them or
because Remey neglected to make those restrictions clear. It is,
therefore, not at all certain that anything new will come to light when
the wooden crates are opened.
Richard Hollinger
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Censorship / I read Salmani's book
To: Jonah Winters
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 10:27:45 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to Jonah Winters:
>
>
> First, I am often less than fulfilled with many of the Baha'i texts
> available to me. I look at my ever-growing collection of Baha'i texts and
> see three things: I see a few, maybe 20, primary sources. I see another
> few, maybe 15, academic works. I mean the nice, scholarly stuff, the kind
> I could cite in a bibliography. The rest, the great majority, is
> secondary non-scholarly stuff that seems to account for 95% of what
> Baha'i publishing houses turn out. Though there are a few gems here, such
> as Taherzadeh's series, most of that majority I find often represents the
> things that most turn me off about religion. Watery self-help books, some
> appeals-to-all historical texts, and few that add to my appreciation
> of the faith.
Not only is there a quality problem due to the overcautious and
anti-intellectual leanings of those who control publishing,
there's also a surprising *quantity* problem. (Don't remember
if I have posted this before here, so apologies for repetition
if so.) There are 35,000 Theosophists in the world, and
something like 3400 books have been written about Theosophy.
Almost all primary source material is in print, with some
irritating exceptions that show Adyar not to be all that remote
from Haifa in some ways. Whereas 5.5 million Baha'is have
produced, in the same time period, less than 900 books (both
totals include multiple editions of the same title, and
translations.) On a scale of literary productivity,
Theosophists have been per capita *600 times* as productive as
Baha'is. And most of our members are in India too, so it
cannot be attributed to economic/cultural differences solely;
if you studied just U.S. publications the comparisons would not
be all that different I suspect, and we Theosophists are not a
wealthy or upper-class group.
What this suggests to me is that by worrying on an ad-hoc,
case by case basis "could publishing this have any harmful
repercussions" the Baha'i administration has not seen the
forest for the trees. Having a short-term vision about
possible consequences of publishing any particular book, the
administration has missed out on the long-term very harmful
consequences of such an approach-- impoverishment of
intellectual life and a bad reputation in scholarly circles.
A case of failing to "let your vision be world-embracing rather
than confined to your own selves."
> Some Talismanians have been hedging around the issue of the official
> censorship of history, as Browne and MacEoin have publicly alleged. Why
> not say it? In private, to other Baha'is whose faith I am not worried
> about damaging, I most openly discuss this official censorship. I feel
> that they need to know this about their religion, which so often they
> don't. As I said, I hadn't known about this example myself. The very last
> thing that I will do is conceal the existence of censorship with yet more
> covering-up. The history of the Faith cannot be studied completely because
> many of the primary sources are locked-up, and if we deny this or skirt
> about it then we are merely compounding the problem. I was aghast when I
> read the publich debate between Hatcher and MacEoin in _Religion_, and
> read the chastisement of Hatcher by the journal's editors, because I could
> not help but agree fully with the editors! I will not really object to
Could you please give a citation, or better yet, post the
debate and comments? This sounds fascinating.
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:00:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: abizadeh@husc.harvard.edu
Subject: On Abdu'l-Karim Soroush (fwd)
Friday, January 27, 1995
COLUMN ONE
"Islamist's Theory of Relativity"
Iranian scholar says faith is open to interpretation, challenging the
dogma of hard-line mullahs. His ideas on religion, democracy could lead
to a Muslim Reformation.
By ROBIN WRIGHT
Times Staff Writer
Copyright 1995, Los Angeles Times
TEHRAN - Abdul Karim Soroush is an unassuming figure. Small-framed
bespectacled and tenderly soft-spoken he looks almost fragile as he sits
at the big, round oak table in his office at the Research Institute for
Human Sciences here.
But this gentle man is shaking the foundations of a faith that claims a
billion followers - nearly one out of every five people on Earth. Both
supporters and critics now call him the Martin Luther of Islam-a man whose
ideas on religion and democracy could bridge the chasm between Muslim
societies and the outside world.
"Soroush is challenging 13 centuries of thinking," said Nasser Hadian, a
political scientist at Tehran University. "He is proclaiming that
understanding of religion is all relative. Put another way, no one
interpretation is absolute. It is not fixed for all time and place. Who
can say what God meant? This opens the door to all kinds of new ideas,
political as well as religious."
Put still another way, Soroush and an emerging group of Islamic writers
and thinkers are making it possible to be Islamic without being
fundamentalist, according to John Voll, an expert on Islam at the
University of New Hampshire.
"They are creating a comprehensive, late 20th-Century world view that is,
at the same time, authentically Islamic and authentically modern," he
said.
Soroush and contemporaries!such as Tunisia's Rashid Ghannouchi, Egypt's
Hassan Hanafi and Algeria's Mohammed Arkoun-are shaping what may turn out
to be Islam's equivalent of the Christian Reformation: a period of
questioning traditional practices and beliefs and, ultimately, of
upheaval.
Already, Soroush's impact extends far beyond the realm of religion. His
writings are framing a new debate about political change-not just for Iran
but for the Middle East.
"Soroush is profoundly important to an issue facing the entire Muslim
world," Hadian said, "because he says Islam can be interpreted in a way
that is compatible with democracy. And he shows how."
In the region of the globe that has most resisted change, few ideas are
more pivotal to the future than the relationship between Islam and
democracy. Although the Iranian government has not formally reacted to
Soroush's writings and teachings, many senior mullahs and officials are
widely believed to feel threatened by his words. But for all the
acclaim-his work is already the subject of dissertations in places as far
away as Georgetown University in Washington-Soroush does not seek, nor even
welcome, media attention.
A bimonthly magazine called Kiyan, which means source or soul, was founded
in 1991 primarily to air his columns and the debate they have sparked. It
now has subscribers in Asia, Europe and the Americas, including the United
States.
Soroush, otherwise, is almost reclusive-probably wisely so. Friends say
even his dustbin has been picked and probed to keep track of his ideas.
Getting an interview can take years of appeals and pulling strings with
intermediaries.
Against the hustle and honking din of downtown Tehran, the quiet chambers
of the institute where Soroush is dean of faculty seem like a sanctuary.
In his office, soft music plays in the background.
"Islam and democracy are not only compatible," he began. "Their
association is inevitable. In Muslim society, one without the other is
not perfect."
Soroush, who is in his late 40s speaks deliberately and in English. Among
a long list of academic credentials, Soroush did graduate work in
philosophy at the University of London.
"I have given two bases," he said. "The first pillar is this: To be a
true believer, one must be free. To become a believer under pressure or
coercion will not be true belief. And this freedom is the basis of
democracy.
"The second pillar in Islamic democracy is that interpretation of
religious texts is always in flux," he added. "Those interpretations are
also influenced by the age you live in. So you can never give a fixed
interpretation."
Everyone is entitled to an interpretation. Although some may be more
scholarly than others, no one version - by a cleric or layman is
automatically more authoritative than another.
For the Islamic Republic of Iran as well as other Muslim societies, the
practical implications of Soroush's words are profound-although he refuses
to spell them all out. "I will be better served if I do not get entangled
in such political affairs," he said, chuckling knowingly. "Let other
people draw the implications and consequences."
The most basic are equality and empowerment of ordinary believers. As did
the Reformation, Soroush's argument establishes the rights of
individuals-in their relationship both with government and with God. And
like democracy anywhere, the beliefs and will of the majority at the
bottom define the ideal Islamic state. It can't be imposed from the top
or by an elite, such as the clergy.
"No one group of people has exclusive right to interpret or reinterpret
religion. That is something to be abolished," he explained, sitting at
the table, almost buried behind piles of books.
Islam also should not be used as a modern ideology, for it is too likely
to become totalitarian, he said. And the ideal Islamic republic is ruled
not by mullahs or sheiks but by secular leaders.
With haunting similarity to thinking during the Reformation, in which
Protestants split from the Roman Catholic Church, Soroush's arguments in
effect divide the roles and powers of church and state. That would be a
stunning shift for the only major monotheistic religion that provides a
set of rules by which to govern society as well as a set of spiritual
beliefs.
But the change would not be total. Like Luther, the 16th-Century German
theologian who inaugurated the Reformation, Soroush is not abandoning the
values of the faith. He instead argues against rigid thinking and
elitism.
Islam, he says, is a religion that can still grow. He believes in Sharia,
or Islamic law, as a basis for modern legislation. But he views Sharia
less rigidly than does the traditional clergy.
"Sharia is something expandable," he said. "You can't imagine the extent
of its flexibility. And in an Islamic democracy, you can actualize all
its potential flexibilities."
But does not the freedom inherent in democracy ultimately contradict
Islam, which literally translates as submission?
"Just the reverse," he responded, a smile spreading across his face. With
the precision of a logician, he built a philosophical argument as if it
were a mathematical equation.
"If you freely surrender or submit, this does not mean that you have
sacrificed your freedom," he said. "You should be free as well to leave
your faith. It is a contradiction to be free in order to believe-and then
afterward to abolish that freedom."
For a growing group of followers - ranging from young mullahs to regime
opponents, from intellectuals to government technocrats - Soroush represents
the hope of reconciliation, both within Islam and between Islam and the
outside world.
"He is finding ways to reconcile Islam and modernism for educated Muslims
who have had problems with traditional Islam," said Mohammed Reza Bouzari,
a businessman and Soroush follower for almost a decade. "He shows how
understanding changes day by day, year by year. This is the only way to
save Islam in the modern world."
Soroush's Kiyan columns are now the center of a feisty intellectual
debate. His Thursday evening lectures at a local mosque are packed. At
Tehran University's School of Theology, where he teaches the history and
philosophy of science, students wait in the halls just to see him.
At the last national book fair, an anonymous donor contributed enough to
make all copies of Soroush's books available at half price. His most
popular book just ran its fourth printing. Even critics concede that his
writing in Persian is so poetic it draws readers on literary merit alone.
"This is a seed in the ground, and it is going to grow," Bouzari said.
"It's an intellectual revolution," added Reza Tehrani, Kiyan's editor.
But the movement symbolized by Soroush may be on a collision course with
Iran's powerful clergy.
"The debate is between those who accept the idea of a multifaceted,
multidimensional religion that changes across time and space and those who
say Islam has only one essence, and it can't be touched, and therefore
democracy is alien," said Hadi Semati, an analyst at Tehran's Center for
Scientific Research and Middle East Strategic Studies.
In Iran, the latter are now in power.
"The government does not like us, but so far it tolerates us,' Tehrani said.
Many, however, fear for Soroush's future.
"Soroush is a man of some courage, especially given the context in which
he says these things and the direct criticism of the form of government in
Iran today that comes out of his writings and teaching," said Shaul
Bakhash, an Iran expert at George Mason University in Fairfax, Va., and
author of an upcoming book on the Islamic debate.
Soroush was originally one of the revolution's own. He returned from
London shortly after the 1979 upheaval that brought the Ayatollah Ruhollah
Khomeini to power.
In the early 1980s, he was part of the cultural revolution, serving on the
seven-man committee that determined Islamically correct university
curricula.
He hosted one of the new regime's early television shows on Persian
poetry. Yet he can also quote vast passages from a cross-section of
Western philosophers.
"We've never had anyone like Soroush," Hadian said. "Very few people
really know both the West and Islam, and can talk about and to both
worlds. Some intellectuals here are familiar with the West but not with
the religious nuances. And some clerics know religion but not the West.
Even in Iran, we can't communicate with each other. But Soroush can bring
together ideas from both worlds because he understands and has lived in
both."
The debate within Iran is echoing throughout the Muslim world. Various
thinkers are looking at how to modernize and democratize political and
economic systems in an Islamic context.
The extensive writings of Egypt's Hanafi, for example, center on "bringing
the faith up to date in a revolutionary way," New Hampshire Islamic expert
Voll said. "He thinks of developing the equivalent in Islam of what
liberation theology was to Catholicism."
Tunisia's Ghannouchi, another philosopher, is working on a book titled
"Public Freedom in the Islamic State."
"Islam did not come with a specific program about our life," he said in an
interview. "It brought general principles. It's our duty to make this
program through interaction between Islamic principles and modernity."
Ghannouchi advocates majority rule, protection of minorities, full women's
rights and equality of all secular and religious parties.
"Freedom," he pronounced, "is superior to Islam."
Yet his views are seen as such a challenge to the state that he was
repeatedly imprisoned in Tunisia before being forced into exile in Europe.
The Reformation did not fully shake out for about 200 years with the
establishment of a welter of Protestant denominations. By that yardstick,
an Islamic Reformation-if that is what it turns out to be-is only in its
incipient stage, and the current debate underscores that the turmoil in
the Muslim world is due at least as much to internal tensions as to
friction with the outside world.
Soroush prefers to avoid comparisons with Luther.
"I'm just a writer and a thinker," he said. "I'm not thinking of doing
things like Luther did.
"Although," he paused, "perhaps Luther did not know what he was doing at
that time."
He laughed easily. "But I am well aware that these ideas, if taken
seriously, might be of some use or help some radical change in the way we
look at religion."
END
--
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
"In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization
=END=
Subject: Re: Remey's Papers
To: rvh3@columbia.edu, think@ucla.edu
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 10:14:23 -0500 (EST)
From: "Donald Zhang Osborn"
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Allah'u'Abha! There is a set of Remey papers at the Milton S. Eisenhower
Library of the Johns Hopkins University. They apparently go through 1940
only and include materials related to his parents and family. Don't have
any idea if these were sealed at any time. (I discovered this when doing
a gopher search of that library). Don Osborn osborndo@pilot.msu.edu
On Fri. 15 Dec, Richard Hollinger wrote:
>
> On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Safa Sadeghpour wrote:
>
> > * In June, the Iowa State Historical Society finally opened long-
> > embargoed boxes of self-published, highly-detailed,
> > autobiographical journals donated by a not-particularly-prominent
> > architect named Charles Remey, who died in 1979 and who was
> > apparently obsessed with making sure the public was not denied
> > his life story.
>
> Remey deposited typed copies of many of his papers in various libraries,
> including the New York Public Library, the Library of Congress, Yale
> University, Princeton University, and yes, the Iowa Historical Society.
> In each place he asked that they be closed until 1995. ..............
[rest deleted]
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Publishing stats
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 11:46:06 EST
I just did an OCLC search for all the 19th century religions
that seemed relevant for comparison purposes, but then flunked
at finding current membership stats in gopherspace or WWW. (My
library seems to have only US totals). But here goes:
Religion Titles Members Ratio
Baha'i 979 5.5 mil .00018
Adventist 8121 8 mil? .00102
Mormon 8334 8 mil? .00104
Christian Science 2317 250,000? .00927
Spiritualism 7479 300,000? .02493
Theosophy 3366 35,000 .09617
With apologies for the statistical guesses, this still paints a
very interesting picture. Adventists and Mormons about 10
times as productive as Baha'is, Christian Scientists 10 times
as productive as Adventists and Mormons, Theosophists ten times
as productive as Christian Scientists. Is it any wonder I post
a lot?
BTW the Baha'i and Theosophy totals have both increased
comparably in the past year-- I hadn't looked very recently.
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Homosexuality
To: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 10:12:32 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu:
among many other good points:
>
> A) Preventing harm
> 1) to the individual himself.
> Such harm would be either (a) physical or (b) psychological.
> There is some merit to (a) given the spread of AIDS
> and other sexually transmitted diseases. Strictly speaking the harm
> is not in the homosexual practices as such but in so-called "unsafe sex."
> Since some heterosexuals practice such things and some homosexuals
> do not, the objection would presumably be to the practices and not to the
> homosexuality as such. (b) also has some merit, but the psychological
> harm seems to result more from conflict between homosexuality and
> social norms and expectations than from the homosexuality as such. Thus,
> societal acceptance of homosexuality would presumably end most
> psychological harm associated with homosexuality.
Promiscuity is the real source of harm to the individual, and
is a problem that is strongly related to the scorn heaped on
homosexuality by society. I remember a quote from the 1940s--
maybe Gunnar Myrdal, to the effect that "America forces the
Negro to shine shoes, and then scorns him for being a shoe
shine boy." Similarly, Baha'is (and all other religions that
are anti-homosexual) define the homosexual as an outlaw, and
then use his/her outlaw behavior as proof of inherent
sinfulness. Promiscuity, IMO, is a manifestation of a degraded
sense of self-worth and a demeaning view of the value of one's
partner(s). If society and religion tell the homosexual "your
sexuality is contemptible, sinful, unnatural" how likely is it
that the sexual behavior of a person programmed in this way
will be healthy either physically or psychologically?
What will probably surprise some of you who are ignorant of the
evolution of gay America is the extent to which monogamy has
become the norm. AIDS has some bearing on this, but so does
the growth of a climate of self-acceptance and acceptance by
society. I've been in a monogamous relationship for four years
this week. Of the minority of my close friends who are gay males, ALL are
in monogamous relationships: 20 years, 14 years, 10 years, 2
years respectively, which averages out better than my straight
friends. My guess is that the mental and spiritual health of
gay Baha'is would be immensely better if monogamy were advised
rather than changing to heterosexual. One could certainly not
ask for any privileges for gays that are not allowed for
straights; but what about the old mutatis mutandis (sp)?
A very dear (now ex-) Baha'i friend of mine, female, married a Baha'i man
with a gay past and a fervent desire to change. It lasted less than a year,
and was extremely traumatic for both of them. He remained a
Baha'i and later contracted a second disastrous marriage.
I wouldn't wish such an experience on my worst enemy. Even if you don't care
at all about the suffering current policy inflicts on
homosexuals, you should care about the suffering it inflicts on
heterosexuals who are victimized indirectly.
>
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 10:35:14 PST
Subject: Salmani
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I do hope the Persian scholars and the historians start presenting
untranslated works. Sounds great.
I don't have a copy of Salmani's memoirs but I remember reading it
and enjoying it. I loved his tone. There was a down to earth quality
about his stories. It was like listening to a... well, a barber.
The one I remember and I wish someone could give me the exact quote
was his comment about the Bab.
Salmani said, we'd did know much about him but his reputation was
that he have very fast penmanship.
Love,
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 12/15/95
Time: 10:35:14
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 10:10:32 PST
Subject: re: interfaith dialog
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Terry, that was a fine posting. I hope you work it all up into a
small book and take lots more time fleshing out those ideas and
visions.
The thoughts about words and letters and so on finally opened up that
reference for me. I knew there was a mystical meaning to it but
hadn't been able to follow it. That was very helpful. Thanks. -
------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 12/15/95
Time: 10:10:33
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Book review of source materials
To: rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com (Ahang Rabbani)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 11:44:17 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Ahang writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^^
As an example (and to launch) this idea, later today, I'll offer
a book report on the much discussed, seen-by-few-only,
Zuhuru'l-Haqq, vol 3, (ZH-3). Then if there was a sustained
interest, I'll follow up with a discussion of just-received
(well, a better copy that is) ZH-4, which covers Baha'u'llah's
period 1852-64 and to my knowledge only one other Talismanian has
seen a partial copy.
___________
As a crypto-clandestine member of Juan Cole's *Back to Baha'u'llah*
movement, I am more interested in Volume 4. Does anyone have Volume 5 of
Zuhur al-Haqq, which covers the life of Baha'u'llah from 1863-1892?
I am looking forward with rapt anticipation and bated rale to your
next post, Ahang!
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:49:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: conscience
I wanted to thank Brent for his posting and for the very powerful
comments from the Guardian condemning the shackling of individual
consciences in past religions and civilizations, as well as reminding us
of the dangers of anarchy.
I would argue that here we have a classical case of the need for the
golden mean. As the Arabs say, khayru'l-umur awsatuha, which the Greeks
had as moderation in all things.
I think we end up with the following chart:
Absolutism Balance of Authority Anarchy
and Individual
responsibility
shackled conscience, individual accepts authority all institutional
abdication of individual of duly constituted authority is
ethical discernment in institutions, but occasionally rejected in favor
favor of a Church or must make individual ethical of individual
State choices conscience
Of course, I have set things up so that my position is the golden
mean :-)
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 12:08:54 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: Salmani
Well, as it turned out, the "early morning phone call" from my partner's
uncle which relayed a message from a member of the House of Justice actually
WAS a communication from the House--or at least they backed it up later. No
one has ever suggested that the action was improper.
So, if you get a call at 6:30 in the morning from your uncle saying that
a member of the House wants to give you a message. I suggest you take it
verrry seriously. :-)
Tony
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: 95-12-14 16:20:25 EST
Tony,
Just out of curiosity, why would you act on an "early-morning phone call from
a Persian
friend, relaying a message from a member of the House of Justice" when you
presumably already had on paper authorizations to publish from the
reviewing committees of the US NSA and the House of Justice? Why did
you think that this "Persian friend" was authorized to overrule a World
Centre decision? Why, in fact, did you think that the individual House
member was authorized to overrule the reviewing committee? After all,
if something I write passes review, and then a member of the NSA calls me
up and says he doesn't like it, I presumable have every right to hang up
on him and publish anyway.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 10:26:18 -0700
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: PT.2 The Nightmare (was: Probably some cult in the Bahamas)
PART 2
THE NIGHTMARE:
The Killarney road ran North from Union Street up between Naashwaaksis and
Devon, past the Saint Mary's Reserve, through forest and joined up with
route #8 near Taymouth on the Naashwaak River. Killarney lake is about 5 or
6 miles out the Kilarney Road. It's a pleasant spot. I'd go swimming there
on hot summer days; in my earliest years with my family, later with friends.
Friday and Saturday nights the place would be taken over by rowdy crowds of
young people. It was a great place to party and let loose but those who used
the area during the day thought otherwise. They'd grumble about punks and
hooligans and broken beer bottles. I grumbled about them too until I was 15
and joined the ranks of those being grumbled about.
Now of course the place is developed, fenced off and patrolled more
carefully than it was in 1965. What was once a narrow field between the road
and the lake is a parking lot, and what was the Killarney Road is part of
the main highway. But then it was just a poorly paved narrow two lane,
bordered by forest on either side. There weren't many houses along the
Killarney Road, just a few dilapidated dwellings. I never knew any of the
people who lived in them. I assumed they weren't worth knowing. It wasn't
wise to walk along the Killarney Road. Particularly on Friday or Saturday
nights with car loads of whiskey, beer and testosterone intoxicated boys and
frightened, laughing girls speeding to and from the lake looking for trouble
or fun and not yet knowing the difference. For that matter it wasn't wise
to drive along that road.
I never walked along the Killarney road except in my dreams. In my dreams I
walked along it thousands of times. Always that one dark stretch from the
lake to that point I could never go beyond. It could have been any road,
anywhere, I suppose.
My brother had been talking about some strange religion that evening. I
wasn't interested. I went to my room and lay down on my bed and stared at a
tiny spider on the ceiling. I thought of Poe's "Imp of the Perverse" that
I'd read the day before. I tried to magnify the spider with the lens of my
imagination, my thoughts drifted away to sunny days at New River Beach on
the Bay of Fundy, lying on the hot white sand. Squinting against the sun, I
could see the silhouette of a girl coming toward me. I shaded my eyes with
my hand so I could see her more clearly as she approached. She had long dark
wet hair, she wore a sky blue bathing suit and had a large towel draped over
her shoulders. I could hear . . . I could hear . . . Murray talking about
religion. Shit!!.
Why talk about it, I thought. Why not just practice it. I believed in God.
I didn't have to tell everyone. I read from the Bible sometimes. I had even
neatly typed out 1Corinthians, Chapter 13, Revised Standard Version in it's
entirety and taped it on my wall as a reminder of what Christianity was all
about. I'd even gone through the first two booklets sent to me by the Billy
Graham Evangelical Society after that embarrassing incident at the Leighton
Ford Crusade. Yes. Even though I'd come to my senses once the music had
stopped and all the other people were dismissed I had to wait there among
the flock of glazed eyed zombies clustered at the foot of Rev. Fords
makeshift pulpit. We were all asked to take a seat and a contingent of
middle aged men in three piece suits, smelling of Old Spice and carrying
black vinyl attache cases were dispatched among us to get names, addresses
etc. and to welcome us to the flock of God's chosen ones. My family was
waiting for me in the lobby of the arena. The drive back home to Marysville
was quiet and solemn. A few weeks later I received a little booklet in the
mail - "My Personal Commitment". There was a list of questions on every
page. Every question was followed by the name of a book, chapter and verse
of the Bible and several blank lines. The instructions were simple. 1. Read
the question. 2. Look up the specified bible verse. 3. Write the specified
bible verse in the blank space. 4. When finished, mail in the booklet and
you will receive further instructions. I followed all the instructions and
soon received another little booklet in the mail - "My Personal Witness and
Follow Up". This time I followed steps 1 through 3 and didn't bother with
#4 having decided that there was nothing "personal" about this stuff at all.
All those people who walked up to Rev. Ford's or Billy Graham's platform
were given the same questions and providing the same answers from the same
source. I wondered if this Baha'i religion that Murray had been trying to
tell me about worked the same way. I went to sleep laughing and depressed.
That was the first night I walked alone down the Killarney road.
I was always a very deep sleeper. One night I dreamed that there was toast
burning and some commotion in our kitchen. Not a very significant dream.
"Good Heavens Gordon!" my mother exclaimed as I came down for breakfast
that morning. "How on earth were you able to sleep through all that noise
and commotion last night?"
"Commotion?"
"Sharp's house burned to the ground," she told me. "There were sirens,
firetrucks, police with megaphones telling everybody to stay back.
Everybody on this side of the river was there. Except you."
Sharp's house was four lots down the street from us. Maybe that's why I
dreamed about burning toast.
I was in the same deep sleep when I found myself on the Killarney Road
across from the turn off to the lake. I had no shirt or shoes and there was
a chilling autumn drizzle. I had no idea how I came to be there and I wanted
desperately to get home. I wasn't sure even if I was walking in the right
direction. I was afraid that unless someone came along and picked me up I
was going to die. Time is irrelevant in dreams. I could have been there for
a few seconds or hours before I saw headlights coming toward me. I stepped
out on the road and began waving my arms above me. As the car approached it
showed no sign of slowing down so I tried to leap out of the way, but there
was a brick wall at the edge of the pavement that hadn't been there at
first. It extended upward and northward and southward as far as I could see.
I pressed against it as the car sped by, missing me by a hairsbreadth, it's
tires whining on the wet pavement. The taillights quickly vanished and I
found myself in total darkness knowing that my only hope was to stay as
close to the wall as I possibly could. I felt my way along it moving
slowly, encumbered by the biting cold and overcome with fear and a sense of
hopelessness. Then I could see a faint glow in the distance which I
thought, at first, was from the lights of Fredericton but soon realized was
much closer, emanating from the wall. I felt a faint sense of relief and
tried to move faster, still hugging the wall as though I were trying to make
my way along a narrow ledge of a high building. The glow became brighter and
my despair dissolved a little with every sideways step until I came to a
spot where it appeared safe to stand and where I could see, but only
faintly. The Wall I had been feeling my way along intersected yet another
wall, which I discovered was a large building with a solid door but no
windows. At the place where the wall and building joined there was a gate,
slightly ajar. A bit of light showed through that narrow opening. I gave
it a push and it opened another foot or so; just enough so that I could see
the other side. The light increased. At first I thought I had come out on
the Green along the Saint John River on the Devon side. But it wasn't just
a green or park with a row of willow trees. It was a place the likes of
which I'd never seen before. There were trees of all sorts, wide open
fields with flowers of every kind imaginable and beyond, an endless ocean.
And there were people. Men, Women and Children all moving about, speaking
and laughing with one another. And I stood there and watched and wept with
joy. A voice nearby startled me and I looked in the direction from which it
came. It had only spoken one word; "yes" and there are many ways that word
can be spoken. It had come from a girl who had been watching me. I couldn't
describe the expression on her face. She wasn't looking at me the way one
might look at an intruder, or a stranger, or a friend. A look of pity
perhaps. A look that reminded me that I was standing in a chilling autumn
drizzle with no shirt or shoes. I was embarrassed and frightened. I jumped
back, pulling on the gate. There was a loud metallic clunk and I was in
darkness, and the fear, hopelessness and despair descended on me once
again. I was repeating over and over, "They would have welcomed me". I
remembered the door in the building on my side of the wall and began groping
for it thinking, "They'll let me in through the building". I found the door
handle. It was locked. I pounded on the door frantically.
And then, I found myself standing in the middle of a dimly lit room with
no doors or windows and no furnishing except for a small table in one
corner, and a chair, in which sat a motionless person, his elbows resting on
the table and his head resting in the palms of his hands. There was an evil
aura about him and I couldn't be sure if he was even human but he was my
only hope.
"Please . . . " I spoke only that one word as I stepped toward him.
He raised his face from his palms and turned it in my direction. I felt a
sudden, sickening and paralyzing terror. His face was turned toward me but
he couldn't see me. Where his eyes should have been were two empty dark
openings. In all other aspects he was totally familiar. I was looking at
myself. And I heard him speak with a voice that was my own; a voice that
embodied anger, fear, grief, desperation and hatred all at once. And it
said; "You've closed the gate."
******************************************************************
In a month you are going to hear "The rest of the story"
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
Subject: Re: Publishing stats
To: pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu (K. Paul Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 13:10:19 -0500 (EST)
From: "Donald Zhang Osborn"
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Paul, Thanks for the interesting statistics. A few factors might at least
partially account for the relatively low publication ratio you refer to
(although not necessarily refuting your main point). One is the OCLC index
itself. Based as it is on library holdings mostly in North America (&UK?)
(as I understand it)--or perhaps more accurately (?) on holdings that
libraries choose to list on OCLC--it is not necessarily representative of
the larger field of publications made on a topic.
Moreover, library collections themselves do not always include good
representations of what has actually been published on every topic. In
my limited search of university libraries I have noticed that holdings
relating to the Baha'i faith are often quite neglected. This was the case
at Michigan State, for instance, where up until recently many basic titles
(most of the sacred writings, for instance) were lacking--not to mention
varieties of other Baha'i publications in English.
Another point is that there is Baha'i publication in other parts of the world
(proportionately more so, one would guess, than is the case for the other
faiths you mention), and that this is even less likely to find its way into
libraries covered by OCLC.
Also keep in mind that a large proportion of the worldwide Baha'i population
is rural people who may not yet be writing for publication. In addition, of
course, the Baha'is in Iran (and other countries where the faith is not well
liked by the powers that be) have not been publishing much lately. I don't
know how this would affect the ratio.
Perhaps one could take the total population for each religion living in
countries where they are free to practice their religion, multiply by average
years of formal education and then divide by an estimate of total publications
determined using OCLC but also other resources? (No, I don't expect you to do
that, but the results might also be interesting.)
Don Osborn osborndo@pilot.msu.edu
=END=
From: PayamA@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 13:38:06 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Publishing stats
I'm not sure how you came up with the figure for Baha'i publications, but in
his bibliography Collins lists 3700 Baha'i publications in English (not
counting Braille materials, periodicals or theses.)
Payam
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 13:48:12 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: so what?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Stephen, a theory is something testable. So, scientists use Darwin's
theory to test hypotheses. The theory will then be modified somewhat according
to the results of testing the hypotheses. That does not mean that the theory
is bad or irrelevant. The bottom line is that no one has come up with an
alternative theory to Darwin's. Any modifications to his theory are minor
ones. Yet, I see people leaping to discredit Darwin (a personal hero of mine)
so as to prove that evolution is untrue. I agree that Abdu'l Baha's comments
must be seen as metaphysical. And, as John has pointed out before, they should
be viewed in the context of the discussion of the time in which he was writing.
He was not a scientist. He was a great religious leader (and I utterly adore
him!)
And, as long as we are on the subject of "so what?" I will ask Ahang the same
question. So what if Salmani said things that weren't P.C.? His views are
still important. All that needed to be done was to write a good introduction
to the book explaining his biases. Anyone would see that he was not a scholar
and was a working-class man writing his impressions. Give the reader some
credit. However, I do detect that there might have been some prejudice against
him because he was simply a "working class man."
As for the issue of polygyny, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that
polygyny and low status of women in a society are highly correlated. Polyandry
which is so rare in the world and sometimes actually co-exists with polygyny,
does nothing to raise a woman's status.
By the way, although polygyny is allowed in Islam, I must say that I have not
found it to be popular among the people with whom I work. Most of them believe
that it is an insult to one's wife to marry another. Linda
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 13:55:43 EST
Subject: Re: QUANTA'S HOME PAGE
Dear Brent,
What a splendid idea. I am waiting for your picture first. I shall
call it Quanta's friends of talisland. I am updating with pictures
of my children and friends. Also created links to the Baha'i
home page. It is already proven to be a good teaching tool at
the computer lab here.
lovingly,
>From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
>So, why don't we all mail you our photograph, and you can add us *all* to
>your home page, and we can all see just how glorious we all look.
*** ***
* *
*
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 13:03:51 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: Homosexuality
Dear John and All,
You laid out a very logical argument and suggest the
possibility of the UHJ legislating same-sex marriage
in some instances.
Can the House of Justice legislate around KIA 66?
"No marriage may be contracted without payment of a
dowry...."
The gender roles in this law are, as I understand them,
irrefutable.
While this law is not yet universally applicable, suspending
it for the case of a same-sex marriage is not, I feel,
normative.
On another note, in the Aqdas (parg. 107), Baha'u'llah prohibits
marriage with one's step mother and comments of the subject of boys.
The paragraph starts in almost the same way that the Qur'an (chapter 3?)
addresses the issue of permissible partners. However Baha'u'llah
does not go into the exhuastive list that the Qur'an outlines -
He leaves the decision regarding permissible marriage partners up to the
House of Justice (Q&A 50).
The following observation is made in the spirit of consulation:
What would be the harm of Baha'i biological brothers and sisters,
above the age of 15, marrying one another: they can be sterilized as
to remove the possiblity of offsprings and their relationship would be
heterosexual. Would reserach indicating unique brain structures
in this example have any effect on a decision to sanction such
a relationship?
Further, there is a hadith (I don't know the degree of its
authenticity) to which some Muslims refer: that a *man* who
gains admittance in to Paradise has his choice of "hoories" (young girls)
and "qalman" (young boys - the same word the Baha'u'llah uses
in the Aqdas). Is it possible that Baha'u'llah was alluding to
this misconception?
O.K. just one more question: what terms were available to
Baha'u'llah whose use would have been a clear reference to
homosexuality?
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Publishing stats
To: PayamA@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 14:14:11 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to PayamA@aol.com:
>
> I'm not sure how you came up with the figure for Baha'i publications, but in
> his bibliography Collins lists 3700 Baha'i publications in English (not
> counting Braille materials, periodicals or theses.)
>
> Payam
>
Simply asked for all items (not just books, and not just in
English) under the subjects: Baha'i, Adventist, Mormon,
Spiritualism, Christian Science, Theosophy. Presumably there are fugitive
items in every tradition, but the number you give suggests an
awfully low ratio of Baha'i materials in English making it into
OCLC. Not having seen the Collins bibliography, I'm at a loss
to explain it. (Note-- the CS statistic is a bit shaky in that
conceivably other things have Christian and Science in their
subject hearings).
=END=
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 23:21:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: "Stephen Bedingfield" , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Tablet of Visitation for Vahid
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Stephen,
It was indeed great to have met you face to face at the Texas
Baha'i studies conference and hope you enjoyed your journey.
> Regarding your excellent presentation on Jinab-i Vahid, you had
> presented your provisional translation of Baha'u'llah's "Tablet
> of Visitation for Vahid". Would it be possible to email me a
> copy for my files?
Attached is the provisional translation of Baha'u'llah's Tablet
of Visitation for Vahid. In a week of two, I clean up my paper
on Vahid-i Darabi which includes provisional translation of
several more Tablets of the Bab and Baha'u'llah addressed to him,
his father (Siyyid Ja`far) and Vahid's son, Siyyid Muhsin and
translation of Vahid's own writings and post them too. I'm
grateful to Chris Buck for spending some time after the Conf
reading some of these and offering many useful suggestions.
Further corrections/upgrades will be warmly welcomed.
Take care, ahang.
Baha'u'llah's Tablet of Visitation for Vahid-i Darabi
(prov. trans. by ahang rabbani):
For his holiness Vahid hath this been revealed, he who beheld the
Countenance of God, the All-Glorious, the Almighty, and who in
His path sacrificed himself, arose to serve His Cause and quaffed
his fill of the draught of certitude from the Hand of his Lord,
the Munificent.
He is supreme over His Cause
and powerful over His creation
The first wave of exaltation from the ocean of grace of thy Lord,
the Compassionate, be upon thee [Vahid] who art the essence of
the Qur'an and possessor of the mysteries of the Bayan.
I testify that thou drank of the choice wine of His Revelation
from the hand of His favor and grace, and attained the presence
of Him Who was the Promised One in all the sacred Books,
Scriptures and Tablets. Thou didst hearken unto the divine Call
when raised and perceived its manifestation above the Exalted
horizon on a Day when all the dwellers of the mortal kingdom
rejected the Creator of the heavens. Thou hast, moreover,
discerned the Most Great Announcement and inhaled the fragrance
of the garment of the Lord of Days.
I testify that thou rendered victorious the Faith of God and His
Cause through thy pen, thy tongue and thy hand until thou didst
surrender thy life in His path and quaffed from the Kawthar
(heavenly fountain) of self-renunciation in His name and in His
love. Thou wast intoxicated from the spring of His Recognition
and hath soared with the wings of certitude in the heaven of the
murmur of thy God, the Lord of Grandeur. Over thy sufferings
have all the atoms of the earth cried and the eye of creation
wept.
I testify that because of thee all the treasures of earth
appeared and all the pearls of sea were revealed. Through thee,
the pinnacle of understanding was adorned with the crown of
revelation. Thou art the one who accepted the choice sealed wine
in the presence of all and drank thy fill in the Name of thy
Lord, the Ancient of Days.
May the resplendent glory which hath dawned from the horizon of
divine grace, and effulgent light from the heaven of sanctified
justice, rest upon thee and upon those who have assisted thee.
For they accepted the One that thou had accepted and repudiated
those who had risen against thee. With thee and under thy
shadow, they rendered the Cause victorious, having beheld thee
and circled around thee.
O God, my God, creator of me and of the heavens, I beseech Thee
by the pearls of the ocean of Thy Oneness, by the mysteries of
Thy Book, and by lamentation of Thy loved ones in their
separation from Thee, and by the tears of the pure ones on their
remoteness from Thee, I invoke thee, O Thou Lord of indomitable
Strength, by this sacred Tomb and by this exalted Shrine
[Vahid's], to forgive me and my father, and all those who for Thy
sake have approach these sacred remains, and all those who have
come and will come on pilgrimage to this spot.
O my God, I beseech Thee by him [Vahid] and those who have
suffered martyrdom in Thy path to grant me and to those who
remain faithful in Thy Covenant, the necessities of life. Thou
art the All-knowing, the All-wise, Sovereign of creation.
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 13:19:01 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: alma@indirect.com (Alma Engels)
Subject: Review -- IRS version
Dear Talisers,
Baha'i review is an ongoing topic here and it has popped up on srb where I
am making some comments in response to an article. For those of you who
have access to the Wall Street Journal, there is an interesting article on
the front page todahy (Friday December 15) entitled: "IRS Historian Quits
Over How Agency Is Treating Its Past (subtitled: Old Documents are Shrouded
In Secfrecy-- Or Shredded: A Look at Nixon's Audits)> For those of you who
are not in the USA and not subjdcted to its laws and taxes, IRS stands for
Internal Revenue Service. On a secular level, there are many interesting
parallels. Note that I say secular level for the reason behind the IRS's
authority and the Baha'i Administration are on completely different levels.
The article is fairly long and I have no scanner but at one point the article:
'She believes that the sparseness of public IRS documents puts scholars in a
difficult position. They are "grasping at air," she says, when it comes to
researching IRS history. You can't prove anything.'
In peace,
Alma
To tread the path of Love Alma Engels
Is no mere game. alma@indirect.com
For only one
Out of many thousands
Can persevere in His Love. (Tahirih)
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: More stats
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 14:54:53 EST
On reflection about various points made, it seems to me that
the Baha'i books that did not make it into OCLC should be
offset by the many languages into which some things have been
translated. But out of curiosity, I did a more limited search,
checking only books published in this century in English and
Spanish. But also expanded the search to include derivative
terms like plurals, possessives, variant forms (e.g.
Theosophist) and so on:
Religion English Spanish
Mormon 12427 127
Adventist 6940 218
Spiritualist 4219 335
C. Science 3326 29
Theosophy 2348 138
Baha'i 1311 32
Leader
Joseph Smith 1842
Ellen G. White 504
Mary B. Eddy 453
H. P. Blavatsky 235
Baha'u'llah 202
I wish it were possible to count unique titles, deleting
multiple editions, but don't know how short of going one by
one. Further thought on the Collins biblio-- it probably
includes many pamphlets, general letters, etc. which would
expand the number even without periodicals?
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: 90s pub stats
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 16:00:58 EST
One last time-- it occurred to me that it would be more
instructive in terms of measuring the effect of current policy
to look at current publishing rates. So I got just the 1990s
publications, all formats, all languages, for the six groups in
question. Theosophy falls to last place, showing our lack of
membership growth in the last few decades, but Baha'i still lags
way behind all the others: Mormon 1886, Adventist 1107, Spiritualist
673, Christian Science 359, Baha'i 255, Theosophy 191. On a
per capita basis, I think the Theosophists are still the
bibliophiles par excellence.
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: SED Conference (Rabbani Trust)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:08:50 -0600 (CST)
Talismanians,
Are any of you going to the SED conference in Orlando next week? It would
be wonderful to meet with some of you there. I will be there in my new
capacity as Academic Director of the Foundation for the Science of
Reality. (I was just Kansas Director till three days ago.) If you know
Diane Iverson, the two of us will probably be working together. She is
secretary of the Foundation.
Mark (Foster)
=END=
Date: 15 Dec 95 14:03:04 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: Re: homosexuality
To: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl, talisman@indiana.edu
Reply to: RE>homosexuality
Reply to: RE>homosexuality
Thank you Sen for your informed piece re: homosexuality and genes, rats and
guppies, I always suspected there was something funny going on in my
aguarium...hmmmmm... tho please do not inform my local LSA, I am in enough hot
water as it is, its one thing to be accused of this sort of thing but to be
creating an environment for fish to fling....I am sure Burl will have something
to say about loose guppies.... wasn't there a tank of fish in the Barber Shop
last I went by?
I am fascinated by John's post and suggestion. I hope now that the disussion
can move towards his ideas.
- Daniel (a GUPY) Gay Urban Professional
=END=
Subject: Re: SED Conference (Rabbani Trust)
To: mfoster@tyrell.net (Mark A. Foster)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:52:29 -0500 (EST)
From: "Donald Zhang Osborn"
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
> Are any of you going to the SED conference in Orlando next week? It would
> be wonderful to meet with some of you there. I will be there in my new
> capacity as Academic Director of the Foundation for the Science of
> Reality. (I was just Kansas Director till three days ago.) If you know
> Diane Iverson, the two of us will probably be working together. She is
> secretary of the Foundation.
Allah'u'Abha Mark and all! My wife Lixing and I will be going. Look
forward to meeting you.
BTW, my middle name (which received some attention) is my wife's family's
name. We added each other's name to our own after we married, so in effect
I have two last names. (We know of at least one other Baha'i couple who
have done this.)
With this message I will sign off Talisman for a while. It has been a
pleasure and an education. THank you for all of your ideas, insights, and
information.
Don Osborn osborndo@pilot.msu.edu
Michigan State University
=END=
Date: 15 Dec 95 13:58:00 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: your post homosexuality
To: pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Sbirkland@aol.com, 103275.1472@compuserve.com, slynch@interserv.com
Reply to: your post homosexuality
K. Paul et al -
Uhuh, No! - As the honorary and self appointed Mayor of the Gay Ghetto in
Ciudade
Talisman, I feel compelled to state that Shoghi Effendi was NOT wrong on this
subject (i.e. homosexuality). In my own personal view, his views are
considered extremely liberal and enlightened for the time in which he wrote
(early half of the 20th century in
the Middle East). Those conditions, thankfuly do not exist, at least for me
and
many of my friends here in wind swept Northern California. Admittedlly, the
outward society
in many places worldwide is much more excepting for us than the Baha'i
Community. Many gays and lesbians may lead
open lives ( my redkneck hometown not withstanding), and are often protected
by
civil law. There are hundreds of open gays and lesbians serving in postions of
education, government, clergy, and the like. Therefore what is considered a
scandle no longer exists in many places.
The Guardian was not wrong, the times they be a changin' thats all
- Daniel (who asks that if this doesn't prove my "firmness in the Covenant",
please let me know what it takes, OK? ) Orey
=END=
Date: 15 Dec 95 15:37:57 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Conscience
Dear Talismanians,
Considering this thread on conscience, a comment and then a real-
life story/example:
First, the comment, on Tim Nolan's post of yesterday -- Tim, you
say that "there have to be limits on civil disobedience. Not all
disobeyers have the noble principles of a Gandhi or M.L. King.
Some who practice civil disobedience are simply terrorists or
murderers."
I would submit that civil disobedience has a long and powerful
history *because* it has disavowed terrorism and murder. In fact,
*nonviolent* civil disobedience, which Gandhi and King practiced,
works precisely because of the effect its nonviolence has on the
collective conscience of others, a fact that both leaders stressed.
To lump nonviolent civil disobedience and criminal or genocidal
acts together makes a serious category error. Southern sheriffs,
mayors and governors often made this error during the civil rights
movement, comparing civil rights workers to common criminals
because Jim Crow segregration laws were knowingly broken in the
course of nonviolent resistance campaigns like lunch-counter sit-
ins or school integration efforts.
This movement focused on the power of the individual conscience to
effect change. In many ways, Baha'u'llah's status as a prisoner of
conscience, and `Abdu'l-Baha's after Him, shows us as Baha'is what
the place of the individual conscience can and should be. In
modern times, we have the force of example of the martyrs in Iran,
whose conscience-driven acts have resulted in torture and death,
and who have become shining examples for us all.
The presence of the Universal House of Justice, and their rulings
on various Baha'i laws, helps immeasurably in but does not replace
the operation of the individual conscience. A true story, for
example:
In 1970 I had been a Baha'i for a few short years, and found
myself, because I had followed the guidance of the House, working
as a U.S. Army field medic in an infantry company in the A Shau
valley in northern South Vietnam. The guidance of Baha'u'llah's
writings told me clearly that it I should give my own life rather
than take the life of another, but the guidance of the House also
said that I should obey the orders of a just -- meaning "duly
constituted" -- government, even to the point of following orders
to kill. I took the approved Baha'i conscientious objector route,
did not carry a weapon or train in their use, and tried to save a
few lives and stay alive myself in the midst of a horrendous war.
One day my platoon walked into an ambush, where we were cut to
pieces and decimated by superior fire. Only a few survived. I was
ordered to pick up a weapon from one of my dead friends and fight
by my superior officer. Our lives were in peril, the Viet Cong
pressed in on us rapidly, and my remaining buddies looked at me
like it was time to forget any scruples and fire away.
Two things ran through my confused young mind at that moment -- the
quote from Baha'u'llah and the House's quote about obeying orders
from your government. Which would you have done?
Love,
David
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 16:03:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 1
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Friends,
I'm thrilled to have this opportunity to share a few brief, and
undoubtedly inadequate, thoughts on Zuhuru'l-Haqq (ZH) series.
Much appreciate your indulgence and with your kind permission
will post a bit every day on this topic, hoping that my learned
brothers will step in and correct any misstatement of mine.
In order to be fair to my western friends who may not otherwise
be familiar with this work, I'll first briefly share some
background info and then will outline ZH-3 to be followed with
ZH-4, and perhaps even ZH-6 and Zh-8.
A bit of background:
In mid to late 1920's, the beloved Guardian wrote several letters
to the Persian Baha'i community urging them to begin a systematic
collection of local history while still some of the believers
were around who had witnessed and participated in many events of
the Heroic Age of the Faith. In these letters he was very
adamant that time was of essence and we owe it to the future
generations to collect information and history of the rise and
development of this precious Cause.
In response to the call of the beloved Shoghi Effendi, a massive
effort was launched by then central Assembly of Tihran (later,
1934, becoming the NSA of Iran) where they organized a committee
for this very purpose and in fact commissioned various believers
around the country to collect such local histories. Each major
town or region was instructed to prepare at least one complete
manuscript history (often actually several were prepared). This
effort was sustained till late 1930's when because of the World
War II conditions in Iran (and British occupation of the country)
it was halted, with never being resurrected.
However, during the decade (late 20's - 30's) when an active
campaign for preparation of local histories was going on in Iran,
as mentioned, a massive amount of materials was assembled. Many,
many towns (just about all major communities and many lesser
ones) prepared a detailed write-up of establishment, development
and expansion of the Cause in their environs. Many teachers of
the Cause, systematically traveled throughout the country and
collected information from the "old-timers".
Far more important than these local histories, though, was
locating thousands of Tablets sent by Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha
to individuals where no copies were kept at Akka/Haifa and often
the sole copy resided with the recipient of those Tablets. A
number of individuals, such as Abdu'l-Hamid Ishraq-Khavari
(through 1950's), Azizu'llah Sulaymani (into 1950's), Fadil-i
Mazandarani (into 1940's), Ni`matu'llah Bayda'i (into 1960's)
travel extensively throughout the realm looking for such Tablets
and early documents. All these Tablets were also centrally
collected, with Mirza Ahmad Yazdani leading the charge, indexed,
catalogued and properly transcribed. Also, Ishraq-Khavari
produced many volumes of the Writings based on all these
findings. (Hopefully we'll talk about all these volumes of
published Tablets too.)
In addition to early history and Tablets, of course other gems
were discovered too. For example, Sulaymani in the course of his
travels was able to compile a 10 volume series (each about 500
pages long) on the life and services of some 130 early believers
(Baha'u'llah's and Abdu'l-Baha's periods). Of these series, 9
volumes has been published (10th vol. hopefully to be published
by Canadian Persian Institute for Baha'i Studies) under the title
"Masbih-i Hedayat" (stars of guidance). A truly magnificent
tribute to these remarkable figures of the Cause.
Or Ni`matu'llah Bayda'i compiled a 6 volume series, each about
400 pages, on some 230 Baha'i poets and poetess and their poetry,
in addition to detailed biographical information on each. Of
this series, 4 volumes been published under the title "Sh`aray-i
qarn-i aval-i Baha'i" (Baha'i poets of the first century).
Volume 5 was under printing when the so-called Islamic revolution
took place, and vol. 6 was discovered in Bayda'is house after one
of the Iraqi Scud rockets damaged his house in Tihran and the
family discovered this manuscript which Bayda'i had left behind
after his death without telling anyone! Both of these volumes
deal with poets during the second Baha'i century. (I've been
urging his son, Bijan Bayda'i, who serves at the National Center,
to get a copy of vols 5 & 6 from the World Centre and publish it.
They'll be an overnight best seller.)
I digress, but someone remind me later to go back and discuss
these books in detail too as they are considered source
documents, too.
Now, the Baha'i administration in Iran working with scholars and
elders believers in compiling these histories and documents, had
another good idea, and that was, to publish them in some kind of
organized fashion. For this effort, they selected one of best
minds that the Faith of Baha'u'llah has as yet produced, my hero,
Fadil-i Mazandarani. This unassuming, small man with unsurpassed
knowledge of Arabic, Islamic literature and the Writings
(especially, the Bab's) set out at once to organize these
materials -- a task which consumed a couple decades of his life,
but won him the eternal gratitude of humble students of the Cause
like myself who will forever draw inspiration from this spiritual
and intellectual giant of the Cause. His tireless efforts in the
scholarship and teaching fields were also handsomely rewarded by
the beloved Guardian when he elevated Fadil-i Mazandarani to the
rank of the Hand of the Cause long before anyone else was
elevated by him to such high office -- (previously this matter
was discussed on Talisman).
Using all of these local histories and many, many other documents
placed at his disposal, Fadil completed the monumental history of
the Cause from the beginning to mid 1940's -- truly the most
complete history of the Faith during the course of its first
century.
He organized his history in 9 volumes of which vol. 3 and 8 have
been published and the rest remain in form of manuscript. (I
only have vols 3, 4, 6 and 8 and know very little about the
contents of other volumes, but will share what I know). Each
volume is somewhere between 500 to 1200 pages long, depending on
subject. And many of Fadil's students report that he actually
composed these volumes in his deepening classes, and later the
students' notes were assembled to form these books. Now that's
genius!
An overview of Zuhuru'l-Haqq volumes:
Zh-1 -- History of emergence of Shaykhism, life and writings of
Shaykh Ahmad Ahsa'i, Siyyid Kazim Rashti and other Shaykhi
figures and promoters.
ZH-2 -- Life and Writings of the Bab. This volume, from what has
been reported to me, is the most comprehensive history of the Bab
prepared to date by anyone, in any language. Reportedly, it
contains many extracts from the Writings of the Bab where no
copies exist for them.
ZH-3 -- Life and services of followers of the Bab and their chief
adversaries. (The next few posts will be about this book.)
ZH-4 -- Baha'u'llah's ministry, 1852-1864. My manuscript is hand
written (very readable) and stand 394 pages. To be discussed
later, too.
ZH-5 -- Baha'u'llah's Ministry, 1864-1892. Again, like vol 4, it
contains many Tablets where other copies are not extant.
ZH-6 -- Followers of Baha'u'llah. A massive (over 1100 pages)
biographical write-up on some 150 key figures of the community
during the Ministry of Baha'u'llah.
ZH-7 -- Ministry of Abdu'l-Baha. I understand that its mostly
about the Master post-1892 period and his travels to the west. I
doubt that after Balyuzi's "Abdu'l-Baha" and forthcoming
translation of Mirza Mahmud Zarqani's "Badayi'u'l-Athar" there be
much new information here. But don't know for sure.
ZH-8 -- Biographical data on some 140 key believers during the
Ministry of Abdu'l-Baha. Hopefully we'll discuss this important
volume in detail too. Was published as two separate volumes each
about 600 pages.
ZH-9 -- Ministry of the beloved Guardian. (have no useful idea
what's in this vol. and Fadil's students don't have a good
recollections either. If anyone knows anything, please enlighten
us all.)
I deeply apologize to my learned friends that this posting was so
elementary and wasted their time by reading it, but I thought it
was important to briefly say a few thing about the background of
this series for our western friends. I'll try to do better in
the future postings, if in fact there is an interest for this
thread to continue....
much love, ahang.
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:24:53 PST8PDT
Subject: (G-Ethic/Interfaith Project, 1 of 2 ) Network Development
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date sent: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:36:47 -0800
Send reply to: The Global Ethic Project
From: Bruce Schuman
Subject: Network Development
To: Multiple recipients of list G-ETHIC
I thought it would be appropriate to forward to G-ETHIC a couple of
messages I just sent to BRIDGE-L regarding global networking. I'm
definitely interested in comments, and/or participation.
- Bruce Schuman
http://www.rain.org/~origin
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 13:59:35 -0800
From: Bruce Schuman
To: Multiple recipients of list BRIDGE-L
Subject: Network Development
Thinking about what Barbara Bernstein told me yesterday, in her e-mail
about her work to build a grassroots multi-media global interreligious
network, this morning I banged out a quick draft proposal in HTML (ie,
written for the web) that overviews some aspects of this work, including
some of what its Internet phases might be.
In a following message, I'm going to post this proposal here, as it is
interpreted by the web browser "lynx", and see if anyone has comments,
suggestions, or additions. If you do, and have web access, try looking at
the proposal through a web browser, and perhaps formatting your
suggestions and additions in HTML.
I have in mind to float this concept around a bit, seeing who might want
to be involved, and how big and fancy and all-inclusive we could make the
general design and program content and "curriculum" for this proposed
network.
Barbara wants to do this stuff, and she is more or less working full time
on it. And she has a mailing list of 6000 people and organizations that
were involved in the 1993 Parliament of World Religions, where she was the
Program Director -- actually responsible, so I understand, for
organizing most of what happened there.
I'd like to get the suggestions of Religious Studies professionals (and
other folks) on dimensions of this proposal that ought to be expanded.
I think we could design the "programmatic content" (and what, for lack of
a better word, I am calling "curriculum") in a way that was extremely
inclusive, of just about anything anybody is interested in, and which
has a "slot" for their point of view, providing a way for them to relate
to the larger project in a way that is comfortable and useful for them.
So, it would be interesting to me if people like Ingrid Shafer or Zos Imos
or Lawren Bale or Ermel Stepp (or anyone else with opinions and
motivations and/or experience) would take this initial framework, and
insert another 50 or 100 lines of stuff that ought to be included.
The idea is: build an interface to everybody, in term they understand,
that they are comfortable with, and in a medium that they can work with,
and hook all of this together in an integrated multi-media multi-level
framework that is financed in a lot of ways, including support from
substantial institutions.
I think this is more or less what Barbara wants to do, and I'll be
interested to see how she responds to this initial sketch.
One other dimension of this whole thing involves the _SourceBook_ for
Earth's Community of Religions_, which was originally developed by/through
the Parliament of World Religions, edited by Joel Beversluis. He
published a couple of articles about our online network projects in the
second (current) edition, and called me yesterday to tell me that he is
now going to send me the ASCII/HTML files that I need to put the entire
text of the _SourceBook_ online, where I think it will be a very valuable
addition to our overall resources for global religious vision. It has "all
the best stuff in it by all the best people", and it will be helpful to
have this material at our fingertips, online, where we won't have to work
so hard trying to organize and cite the basic references for this
community/shared vision.
I would suppose that we will have some elements of the _SourceBook_
online to the web fairly soon. The site is at
http://www.rain.org/~origin/csb.html
And here follows the current (hot off the keyboard) initial draft proposal
for a multi-media Global Community Interreligious Network, formatted by
Lynx, directly from its web address at
http://www.rain.org/~origin/program1.html
- Bruce
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 15:25:52 PST8PDT
Subject: (G-Ethic Interfaith Project, 2 of 2) Global Network Draft Propos
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date sent: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:37:45 -0800
Send reply to: The Global Ethic Project
From: Bruce Schuman
Subject: Global Network Draft Proposal
To: Multiple recipients of list G-ETHIC
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:22:08 -0800
From: Bruce Schuman
To: Multiple recipients of list BRIDGE-L
Subject: Global Network Draft Proposal
GLOBAL INTERRELIGIOUS NETWORK COMMUNITY
A Multi-Level Network Project and System
Initial Draft Proposal
http://www.rain.org/~origin/program1.html
December 15, 1995
It is proposed to build a global interreligious network system that is
intended to contact thousands or millions of people, facilitating
their interaction and leading to the realization of a variety of
objectives.
* These objectives include
+ Developing improved interreligious understanding
+ Building relationships between independent existing
organizations
+ Providing a channel for individual grassroots participation
and creative involvement
+ Building a global library of insights into matters of
religious concern
+ Facilitating improved individual spirituality and
understanding
+ Promoting peace on earth
* The participants in this network system will include
+ Private individuals
+ Representatives of religious organizations
+ Religious leaders
+ Religious studies scholars
+ Scholars from other academic and scientific disciplines
+ Political leaders interested in the implications of religion
+ Scientists, engineers, and developers interested in this work
* This network is multi-media, and involves
+ Face-to-face conferences, meetings and discussions
+ Print newsletters and publications
+ Video and television production, including cable and
satellite
+ Computer disks, CD-ROM, and other advanced electronic media
+ Computer networks, including the Internet, e-mail and
listserv, web-sites, data-bases, polling systems, community
directories, and advanced programming
* This network will develop an advanced and highly inclusive program
and curriculum, which will include
+ An opportunity for religious organizations to present their
point of view to the world
+ An opportunity for inspired individuals to present new ideas
and insight
+ An opportunity for religious studies and other scholars to
develop seminars and educational projects
+ Extensive interreligious dialogue on a wide array of subjects
+ An advanced library of books and research materials related
to religious studies and the practice of religion
+ Various approaches to a "science of religion" that are
interdisciplinary and interreligious, including explorations
of the concept "unity in diversity"
* This network will be based on an emerging and evolving new
"philosophy of global community", which includes
+ A sensitivity to the concerns of individuals
+ A recognition and respect for alternative points of view
+ Extensive dialogue and discussion on controversial issues
+ The decentralization of authority
+ The use of scientific and objective methods wherever possible
+ The inclusion of the widest possible array of input and
sources
+ Additional possibilities
* This network will be developed and expanded and brought into being
by the cooperative efforts of interested and devoted volunteers,
who will
+ Do what they can to take responsibility for some aspect of
this project
+ Contact possible participants, and build relationships with
them
+ Acquire and develop expertise in some aspect of this work
+ Work cooperatively with other participants to build a healthy
and successful financial basis for this network
* This network will offer multiple levels of participation,
involvement and commitment, such that
+ Participants may remain entirely loyal and committed to their
existing spiritual organizations
+ Participants who wish to strive for the creation of a new
global organization and religious vision can do so
+ Existing religious organizations can participate at a level
which is comfortable for them, across an array of levels
which might include
o "Community of religions" Participants don't necessarily
share very much with other organizations, but are
happy to meet with them and explore possible issues and
avenues of common concern
o "Harmony of religions" Participants recognize that
religions clearly have much in common, and need to
define and empower these common factors
o "Unity of religions" Participants believe that religions
are essentially pointing at the same truth in different
ways.
o "Scientific unity of religions" Participants believe
that there is a common core of truth in religious
traditions, and that this truth can be identified and
described in scientific terms.
+ Participating individuals might express their positions by
saying
o I am "under obedience" in a religious organization
o I am a member of a religious organization, and I follow
their teachings exactly and to the letter
o I am a member of a religious organization, and I follow
most of their teachings
o I am a member of a religious organization, and I follow
many of their teachings, but I disagree with some
o I am a member of a religious organization, and I follow
some of their teachings, but I disagree with many
o I feel the need to create or be involved with a new
religious organization
* This network will explore core issues in Religious Studies,
including questions such as
+ How are religions to be taught to student and the world?
+ Can an "outsider" present a tradition?
+ Is a religion strictly individual and private, or is it a
social structure with an independent and ongoing status?
This proposal is an initial exploratory draft, and is intended to be
expanded and detailed by persons interested in participation in the
development of this network.
If you are interested in being involved with this work, please submit
your comments, suggestions, and additions. If possible, do this in an
HTML format compatible with this present document, which can be be
downloaded through "lynx" in HTML format by entering the "\" option,
which displays the HTML code, then selecting the "p" (print") option,
and mailing the text to yourself, where you can insert your
suggestions and comments, and submit them by e-mail to Bruce Schuman,
origin@rain.org
We look forward to hearing from you.
You are the 2nd visitor to this page since December 15, 1995.
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:23:32 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: House and revealed laws
On Thu, 14 Dec 1995 JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu wrote:
> [...]
> Interpretation vs. legislation:
> Under which of these rubrics ought the
> matter of homosexuality be considered? The House of Justice, after all,
> was established to legislate on matters where there was not explicit
> revealed law [...]
As the Guardian points out in the Dispensation, the House of Justice was
created to "supplement and apply" the laws of Baha'u'llah. Likewise in
the Constitution of the House, as well as in the 3 published letters of
the House on the subject of the Guardianship/House, the authority of the
House to "apply" the laws revealed by Baha'u'llah figures prominently.
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:35:04 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Don Peden
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Conscience
On Fri, 15 Dec 1995, Don Peden wrote:
> Would this mean that Gandhi's approach of passive non-obedience was an
> anarchists approach? If it was, let's hear it for the anarchists (I always
> suspected they had a role to play!)
Well, having an intimate knowledge of the subject, I recall that there
were some loose connections between the War Resisters I used to hang
around with, (I used to be Anarchy-Boy in an earlier incarnation) and
various anarchist groups. Sure, the moral posture is a good one, with
respect to treatment of one's fellow human beings. But this leaves out
the no less important ethic of supporting the government.
Would that mean that the Baha'is in
> Germany had to partake in turning in the Jews and other socially undesirable
> elements of German society, such as the mentally handicapped, in order to
> submit to the society and authority of the Government, or would a higher
> loyalty of obedience., ie., the law of God, prevail? Doesn't it involve
> conscience to decide between the two?
Hence a number of letters I've written over the years on the subject to
the House. This is an extremely tough topic. For example, is a Baha'i
justified in refusing an order to commit a war crime? Depends. Who
decides if it's a war crime? If the US Congress feels its a war crime
and your name is William Calley, then you don't get insulated from your
conduct because you followed orders to wipe out a Vietnamese village. If
you are talking about international standards of conduct, who set the
standard? The UN? Is the soldier a citizen of a nation that is a
member-state of the UN? Or was the standard set by the Genocide
Convention? Is the solder a citizen of a nation that is a party to that
Convention? International law gets real dicey when you try to nail down
a standard. I do not see, and cannot articulate, a clear cut across the
board Baha'i principle here.
Did Shoghi Effendi really say that
> the Baha'i conception of social life is essentially based on the principle
> of the subordination of the individual will to that of society, or is this
> someone's paraphrasing? (It seems uncharacteristically short for Shoghi
> Effendi.)
I can look to see if it's his writing or that of his secretary.
> The "Golden Mean" in art terms, I think, talks about a classical balance of
> elements. If it is the same in your terms of reference, does that mean
> Baha'is should follow a balance of elements in the presence of genocide,
> such as in Rwanda where the government actively groomed a "hit squad" and
> prepared the propoganda to turn the Hutu into a killing machine aimed at the
> Tutsi, or do we make a choice of conscience which follows a higher calling?
> Which part of society do we allow ourselves to be subordinate to?
To me, in ethical matters, "balancing" and the "Golden Mean" does not
mean a compromised mish-mash. Rather, it means coming to direct terms
with a number of competing or apparently competing ethics. It's the
stuff of life. No, I don't think it means mediating a compromise of
principles with hit squads. I think it means finding a path of
wholehearted commitment to a number of principles.
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:42:35 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Juan R Cole , Talisman
Subject: Qur'an/Hadith CD ROM
Juan, you asked me to keep my eyes open for a CD-ROM which had both the
Qur'an and Hadith on it. That was several months ago, and you may have
this by now, but here it is:
The ALIM Islamic Multimedia Software
"The ALIM is a multimedia CD-ROM program for Windows that facilitates
study of the primary resource materials of the Islamic tradition. The
user may access and search databases containing the Quran in Arabic
script, Roman transliteration, and two translations (Yusuf Ali and
Pickthal). You can access an audio Quranic recitation with a click of the
mouse. It also offers two collections of Hadith: Sahih Bukhari and
Al-Muwatta. In addition there are Quranic commentaries by Maududi,
history and biographies, subject index and a reference work on Islamic
Law."
$169.00
Threshold Books
139 Main Street
Brattleboro VT 05301
802-257-2779
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:45:34 +1100
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: so what?
Linda wrote:
Yet, I see people leaping to discredit Darwin (a personal hero of mine)
>so as to prove that evolution is untrue. I agree that Abdu'l Baha's comments
>must be seen as metaphysical. And, as John has pointed out before, they should
>be viewed in the context of the discussion of the time in which he was
>writing.
>He was not a scientist. He was a great religious leader (and I utterly adore
>him!)
Essentially this is the same argument that Juan, Juan et al used re.
Socrates and the Holy Land. There historians were right and 'Abdu'l-Baha
was factually mistaken. I note that since the House letter proponents of
this view have been pretty silent. John wrote one small letter. Juan has
written nothing (to my knowledge). Do we need correspondence to the House
regarding 'Abdu'l-Baha's views on evolution? I think not. Clearly
Darwin's view must be reconciled with 'Abdu'l-Baha's. And I refer
particularly to Darwin's failure to see that -- to paraphrase 'Abdu'l-Baha
-- "man was always man." This desire to discredit metaphysics belongs with
the some mind that set that produced the atomic bomb. Do we really have
any intelligent (cf "professional") readers of history (incl. of human
evolution) here?
Robert.
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:59:53 +1100
To: "Dan Orey" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: your post homosexuality
Dear Dan,
At what point does a statement by the Guardian becomes purely
contextual? Decades later, years later, or simply within a few weeks? A
half a world away, or a few miles down the road? Further, since when has
Northern California set the standards for Baha'i life? I find your
argument shonky to say the least.. ;-}
Warmest regards,
Robert (a big black contrary dog with an ant-eater nose) Johnston.
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:05:17 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Member1700@aol.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Salmani
On Fri, 15 Dec 1995 Anthony A. Lee, Member1700@aol.com wrote:
> Well, as it turned out, the "early morning phone call" from my partner's
> uncle which relayed a message from a member of the House of Justice actually
> WAS a communication from the House--or at least they backed it up later. No
> one has ever suggested that the action was improper.
> So, if you get a call at 6:30 in the morning from your uncle saying that
> a member of the House wants to give you a message. I suggest you take it
> verrry seriously. :-)
> Tony
Tony, you and Payam have described your experience with this matter, and
the House has not, I feel, had an opportunity to do so. This subject has
been referred to hundreds of times during the year or so I've been on
Talisman. It's referred to frequently by K. Paul Johnson on the Baha'i
Internet Newsgroup, which is widely read by non-Baha'is. Juan, you
can't get through a day without referring to bowling or bowdlerization or
whatever :-)
The House has gotten a *lot* of bad press on the topic.
The House can't comment because it hasn't been invited to. (Egads. Some
of the folks here started talking about lawsuits when the NSA published a
letter from one of the friends). So, how about sending off your recent
postings on the subject to Haifa, and invite commentary? The House might
do so, might decline, or might suggest that less time devoted to the
subject overall might be beneficial.
So what think ye?
Brent
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:36:50 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: "Anthony A. Lee"
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Agnes Parsons Diary
Is the Parsons book now available from Kalimat?
When will the Samandari book be available?
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:09:13 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: QUANTA'S HOME PAGE
On Fri, 15 Dec 1995, QUANTA DAWNLIGHT wrote:
> What a splendid idea. I am waiting for your picture first. I shall
> call it Quanta's friends of talisland. I am updating with pictures
> of my children and friends. Also created links to the Baha'i
> home page. It is already proven to be a good teaching tool at
> the computer lab here.
OK, if you're serious, please post your regular mail address, and photo
size suggested.
Brent
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:12:43 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Alma Engels
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Review -- IRS version
On another aspect of the IRS, I have a recent GAO report, 175 pages long,
which says that the Government Accounting Office is unable to audit the
financial books of the IRS. The books are unreliable because they do not
properly categorize funds received or accounts receivable according to
type of tax. Yum!
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:18:48 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Conscience
On 15 Dec 1995, David Langness wrote:
> In 1970 I had been a Baha'i for a few short years, and found
> myself, because I had followed the guidance of the House, working
> as a U.S. Army field medic in an infantry company in the A Shau
> valley in northern South Vietnam.
[...]
> Two things ran through my confused young mind at that moment -- the
> quote from Baha'u'llah and the House's quote about obeying orders
> from your government. Which would you have done?
Heartfelt admiration from a peacenik of those days. I read your published
story several years ago and benefited from it, Dave. It's the choices
made in those moments when the rules in the mind go out the window, and
only those engraved on the heart hold sway over one's deeds, that truly
count.
God bless you.
Brent
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:37:52 +1100
To: "[G. Brent Poirier]" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Conscience
Brent wrote,
>Heartfelt admiration from a peacenik of those days. I read your published
>story several years ago and benefited from it, Dave. It's the choices
>made in those moments when the rules in the mind go out the window, and
>only those engraved on the heart hold sway over one's deeds, that truly
>count.
>God bless you.
I don't think David's dilemma entailed a consideration of values as
clear-cut as all that. But I guess I agree: there will always be
exceptions to any rule. I have major problems though when Baha'is wish to
use the exception to disprove the rule..
Robert.
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:01:43 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Darwinism and the Writings
Dear Talismans,
Robert Johnston wrote
>>Clearly Darwin's view must be reconciled with 'Abdu'l-Baha's. And I refer
particularly to Darwin's failure to see that -- to paraphrase 'Abdu'l-Baha--
"man was always man."
Some Baha'i friends in the natural sciences (and me too, since I have a
background in maine botany )have felt that this statement refers to
potentiality rather than to morphology.
The particular line which would eventually evolve into humans was always
distinct and identifiable in terms of its future direction, although not in
terms of its physical appearance vis a vis other organisms.
Again, may I argue for the longitudinal perspective?
Best,
Sandy Fotos
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:01:45 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: misery and the IRS
Dear Talismans,
FYI and pity (maybe!). US citizens, even when resident overseas, have to
file US tax returns and must pay taxes on income over a certain figure.
However, donations to the NSA of the US are tax deductible!!
Best,
Sandy Fotos
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 17:12:34 PST8PDT
Subject: homage to anarchy?/ was Re: Conscience
Hi,
re:
> Date sent: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:35:04 -0700 (MST)
> From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
> To: Don Peden
> Copies to: talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: Conscience
> On Fri, 15 Dec 1995, Don Peden wrote:
>
> > Would this mean that Gandhi's approach of passive non-obedience was an
> > anarchists approach? If it was, let's hear it for the anarchists (I always
> > suspected they had a role to play!)
>
> Well, having an intimate knowledge of the subject, I recall that there
> were some loose connections between the War Resisters I used to hang
> around with, (I used to be Anarchy-Boy in an earlier incarnation) and
> various anarchist groups. Sure, the moral posture is a good one, with
> respect to treatment of one's fellow human beings. But this leaves out
> the no less important ethic of supporting the government.
A few items about the flowering of culture and social responses to
industrialization (including anarchism) for whatever they are worth:
During the Spanish Civil War (1930s) my wife's grandfather owned a
textile factory near Barcelona. The anarchists were running around
burning the insides of 800 year cathedrals and shooting unarmed
nuns in the back, and such. A friend of her grandfather's who was an
anarchist sympathizer warned him that the local anarchist cell was
planning on killing him and turning the factory into a workers
cooperative, so he was able to escape the fate that many of the
unlucky Catalan capitalists met. Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia"
is an interesting read about this stuff. Of course Picasso grew
up in Barcelona during this time, so maybe bios of him talk about
the social climate.
Having visited some of the architectural sites and museums containing
the fruits of the fin de siecle catalan "modernisme" culture, and
having read a bit of popularized history in English about those times,
it is really startling to see how pervasive, vigorous and diverse the
responses were to the ill effects of industrialization within the
strong catalan traditions. Of course, the catalans had been resisting
oppression from the Bourbons and Madrid for a few hundred years, so
they had become pretty adaptible. For instance, near the village
of Mataro (now about 1 hour north of Barcelona on the autopista/
freeway) there was an entire cooperative village including schools
and a market built around a factory that was a workers cooperative.
This totally dwarfs anything that was attempted (or dreamed of?) by
the counterculture in the USA in the 1960s as far as I know.
Apparently the economy in northeast Spain from 1880 to 1930 (low
cost of living, resistance to the erosion of the power of family
entrepenureship by large corporations) created a craftsman's
paradise, and there was a great honor placed on handiwork.
Other than Orwell's comments on the vicious infighting within the
international leftwing political organizations, and the defarious
role that the USSR played trying to underhandedly ensure the
failure of the left in Spain and in stealing the Spanish treasury
during the years of the Republic, I am still trying to figure out
why all of this incredible flowering of culture and progressive
politics "went south" before and during the spanish civil war.
There may also be some resonances within the democratic mercantile
traditions of the catalans to some of the interesting stuff that
T. Culhane has been writing.
Anyway, I thought I'd try to contribute in some small anecdotal
way to the discussion of the historical context in which the
Guardian may have understood the problem with the anarchists.
Since a minute spent cross country skiing is worth 60 pious
minutes on the internet, I'm out of here for the weekend.
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
(ps, Robert, loved your response!)
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 22:08:14 +0000 (MULTINET_TIMEZONE)
From: maeissin@ichange.com (Michael Eissinger)
To: payama@INCPRD.ICHANGE.COM
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: (no subject)
Payam writes...
"I'm not sure how you came up with the figure for Baha'i publications,
but in
his bibliography Collins lists 3700 Baha'i publications in English (not
counting Braille materials, periodicals or theses.)
Thanks, Payam, for a quiet, direct and intellegetn answer to this
question. This is a question which came up several months ago on DISCUSS
to indicate that the Baha'is weren't as interested in spreading the
truth as the Theosophists since they didn't publish as many books.
Unfortunately, I'm going to go off on a limb, here.
This discussion is interesting only within the overall context of who
this statistic reflects the other activities of the groups in question.
It does not take into account the building and maintenance of the
various properties throughout the world (schools, local and national
centers, the World Centre, radio stations, etc.), various SED projects,
etc. It also, as someone already mentioned, doesn't take into account
that publishing activities in other countries or other languages. Payam
and Tony can give better insight into the difficulties of publishing and
distribution. Kalimat and One World have done the best job of getting
their publications into the mainstream (Kalimat seems to have done some
work getting materials into University libraries and One World is down
distributed by Penguin), but other than that all distribution has been
done strictly within the community since the 30's. This not only limits
the number of new titles that can be published but also limits the size
of each print run.
Although the range of materials published may be frustrating to those of
us who want the publication of more "scholarly" materials we need look
no farther than the fate of some of the Kalimat histories (excellent
series, gentlemen) and works such as Stockman's US History series. Sales
of both have been horrible. Those few (and the number IS small within
the community) who look for that level of material buy a copy of each of
them as they become available. The rest of the potential market tend to
concentrate on purchasing the Writings and introductory materials for
giveaway. The publishing entities need to make sure that they keep the
Writings of the Central Figures, the Guardian and the House of Justice
in print. They also need to make sure that there are teaching
(introductory) materials available. They also need to generate income so
that they can continue to publish. Therefore, if they concenrate on
materials that a small group will purchase and ignore those titles which
will sell to the vast majority of believers, they will not be able to
publish anything.
One other note on review: I've only had a few dealings with the process,
but in my few dealings with the reviewing committee here in the United
States, I've found the following...
1. If the Writings of the Central Figures, the Guardian or the House are
included the reviewing committee checks to make sure that nothing is
taken out of context, that no major interpretation by an individual is
done and that everything is properly referenced.
2. provisional translations are not allowed. Paraphrasing a provisional
translation is acceptable, but, it is the responsibility of the Head of
the Faith ('Abdu'l-Baha, to some extent, then the Guardian and now the
House of Justice) to approve all translations.
3. Theses need not be reviewed, unless and until they go to "general"
publication.
Beyond that, I've not found too many problems. Also, note that different
countries have different review policies, so my experiences may not be
universal.
We can make a protection issue into a conspiracy of silence. We can let
our 20th century, Western European/American paranoia make excusses for
our own short-comings and lack of understanding.
When we, as individual believers, begin to think that we know better how
to handle translation than the Head of the Faith; when we decide that
the authority to see what gets printed and how it should be published
belongs in the hands of a few scholars, instead of the
divinely-ordained, elected Institutions (and their appointed review
committees), then we have a much bigger problem which shows our lack of
understanding of the Covenant and of the materials which we claim to be
such scholars. For what reason do we want to change the publishing
policies? Is it because we want to serve the Faith, or do we as
individuals feel limited? Is it ego or a desire to serve that motivates
our frustrations?
Michael Eissinger
Los Angeles
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 19:16:21 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Subject: Re: Conscience
Dear Brent,
Thank you for putting much of what has been discussed here on Talisman,
around the issue of conscience, into what I accept as very helpful
perspective.
Baha'i love,
Henry
>On the other hand there are limits to the conscience. The Guardian wrote
>about absolute pacifists, who defy their governments:
>
> "With reference to the absolute pacifists, or conscientious
> objectors to war; their attitude, judged from the Baha'i
> standpoint, is quite anti-social and due to its
> exaltation of the individual conscience leads inevitably
> to disorder and chaos in society. Extreme pacifists
> are thus very close to the anarchists, in the sense
> that both these groups lay an undue emphasis on the rights
> and merits of the individual. The Baha'i conception of
> social life is essentially based on the principle of
> the subordination of the individual will to that of
> society. It neither suppresses the individual nor
> does it exalt him to the point of making him an
> anti-social creature, a menace to society. As in
> everything it follows the 'golden mean.'
> (Unfolding Destiny, p. 435)
>
>In the "Dispensation," the Guardian says that the guidance that flows to
>the Universal House of Justice is accessed by the members, when they
>consult their conscience. He says that they should consult the friends,
>but should be guided by their conscience, not by the views, or even the
>convictions, of the friends. To me this means that in addition to
>whatever refinement of personal conscience these men have attained, it is
>in their inmost thoughts that the guidance of God flows to the House.
>
>Now, as was pointed out, we have to reach some to even imagine a conflict
>between our own conscience and the guidance of the House. We all have to
>find our own way through the Writings, and through trial and error,
>prayer and meditation, find our day-by-day application of how we are
>going to put together these principles in our own way. And it is not for
>any of us to declare that the way somebody else has done so isn't proper;
>obviously, none of us has Universal Mind. The Manifestation does, so to
>me, implicit in becoming a Baha'i is an acknowledgement that my
>conscience is an imperfect tool to get me through this life:
>
> "He (the Guardian) was very sorry to hear that ... has
> left the Cause, and suggests that you point out to her,
> and to any other of the friends who are confused and
> upset over this matter, that the Manifestation of God
> only gives us teachings and instructions designed for
> our good and protection, and that if each person
> reserves the right to obey his own conscience, the
> logical conclusion is we don't need any spiritual
> authority to guide and protect us, the authority of
> our own consciences is sufficient!"
> (Unfolding Destiny, p. 444)
>
>So each of us strives to find this balance. I figure that anybody who
>translates this into deeds is way beyond anybody who figures out the
>right beliefs to have on the subject.
>
>Brent
Henry W. Miller
Martinez, California,U.S.A.
hwmiller@ccnet.com
hwmiller@eworld.com
510-372-0709
=END=
[end of 12/15/95
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--------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 07:16:19+030
To: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: Re: Conscience
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>On Fri, 15 Dec 1995, Don Peden wrote:
>
>> Would this mean that Gandhi's approach of passive non-obedience was an
>> anarchists approach? If it was, let's hear it for the anarchists (I always
>> suspected they had a role to play!)
>
>Well, having an intimate knowledge of the subject, I recall that there
>were some loose connections between the War Resisters I used to hang
>around with, (I used to be Anarchy-Boy in an earlier incarnation) and
>various anarchist groups. Sure, the moral posture is a good one, with
>respect to treatment of one's fellow human beings. But this leaves out
>the no less important ethic of supporting the government.
Thanks for your reply. It was helpful to clarify my understanding
of what you were saying. It seems, however, that the above query and
response has awakened many old ideas and emotions from our fellow peaceniks.
In the discussion of anarchy/government, I would propose that there is a
difference between Gandhi and M.L.King and the anarchists in Spain (just as
an example). The difference was that one used passive resistance, and the
other used violence as a means of accomplishing their end.
When it comes to passive resistance, (which is really what we are
discussing with reference to an individual's inability to follow a directive
which they feel is contrary to moral conscience), it is very hard to have a
catagorical answer...all cases are different...and one walks on very tricky
ground, such as the issue of Germany. We are also distinguishing between
moral obligation of obedience to Baha'u'llah's directive to obey just
governments, and the obligation to be obedient to the House of Justice. Is
the House of Justice a just government, or is it something else? A key word
which, perhaps, bears some exploration is "just". It seems that you have
had some dialogue on this issue with the world centre, and I would be very
interested in hearing what the Universal House of Justice responded. I
don't know if this is old territory on Talisman or not, and if it is,
perhaps a private posting would be appropriate to continue on.
Thanks again for your response,
Love,
Bev.
=END=
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 23:31:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: publishing statistics
Paul Johnson's analysis of published books per capita contains an
important truth, however you look at it. The OCLC database represents a
good indication of what is available to the public, at least, and the
Baha'is are weird in this regard even compared to sectarian or esoteric
movements that began in the 19th century.
It is simply not true that the series *Studies in Babi and Baha'i
History/Religions* has sold badly. The fact is that whereas few academic
books can hope nowadays to sell more than about 500 copies (that is,
monographs published by e.g. Princeton University Press or U of Cal.
Press), there is a market of about 1,000 Baha'i households for pretty
much any serious book about the Faith. Since it costs $20,000-$30,000 to
publish academic books, and since they can be priced around $30, you can
see that it is possible to publish such books and to break even or make a
small profit.
My translations of Mirza Abu'l-Fadl's books must have sold in the
thousands by now, by the way (does Tony know?)
So, the drawback is not financial, or not primarily so. I personally
think it is ideological. The Baha'i community simply is not on the whole
very welcoming of individual insights, demanding conformity and
centralizing everything in the hands of elected bureaucrats, most of whom
are not themselves intellectuals. The covenant is frequently brandished
about as some sort of threat or control mechanism.
The system provides serious disincentives to authors. First of all, why
spend years writing a book that could be turned down in the final
analysis by a Review committee? This has happened to a number of Baha'i
authors over the years, though not so much in this country; the
derailment of the Encyclopaedia is a good example.
Nor is everything that goes on in this regard through official channels.
Last year a Baha'i academic with a Ph.D. in the social sciences had an
introductory book on the Faith submitted for review in a European
country. The Review committee contacted an individual member of the
House about it. That House member objected to a number of aspects of the
book, though he is not himself an academic. It took some doing to
convince the Reviewing committee that all this was improper and that the
book should be allowed to appear as was. Most authors are simply not
willing to put up with these sorts of hassles. We have lost at least two
Baha'i magazines because of similar hassles.
This situation, as Paul's statistics indicate, is abnormal and
intellectually unhealthy.
As for the Covenant, can we please listen for once to the Centre of the
Covenant?
At the Central Congregational Church in Brooklyn on 16 June 1912, `Abdu'l-
Baha said: "Just as in the world of politics there is need for free thought,
likewise in the world of religion there should be the right of
unrestricted individual belief. Consider what a vast difference exists
between modern democracy and the old forms of despotism. Under an
autocratic government the opinions of men are not free, and
development is stifled, whereas in a democracy, because thought and
speech are not restricted, the greatest progress is witnessed. It is
likewise true in the world of religion. When freedom of conscience,
liberty of thought and right of speech prevail--that is to say, when
every man according to his own idealization may give expression to his
beliefs--development and growth are inevitable." At the Universalist
Church Washington, D.C. on 6 Nov. 1912, he said: "Praise be to
God! The standard of liberty is held aloft in this land. You enjoy
political liberty; you enjoy liberty of thought and speech, religious
liberty, racial and personal liberty."
Surely we want the "inevitable" "development and growth" of the Baha'i
Faith? And if we do, the Master has told us exactly how we can ensure
it. We are nearly 40 years into the post-Guardian era, the Faith has
emerged from obscurity, and it is time now to move away from spoon-fed
baby food and toward something of more intellectual substance, toward a
recognition of the individual right of individual interpretation and a
recognition of the inevitable (and desirable) diversity of thought in a
global Faith. Our profound loyalty to the Institutions, for whom some on
Talisman have put their lives at risk in the past, is not a reason to
deprive them of the sort of perspectives and consultation that
free-wheeling discussion alone can provide.
Let us not question one another's motives. After all, it would be as easy
to speak of Baha'i "careerists" who attempt to parlay a rhetoric of
super-loyalty into a high standing in the community as it would be to
speak of selfish Western (is that a racial slur?) intellectuals motivated
by ego rather than the best interests of the Faith. The goal for all
Baha'is on Talisman is the same, to see an efflorescence of the
community. Only if such an efflorescence were already visible would it
be illegitimate to discuss the necessary changes to bring it about. In
fact, of course, Baha'is are culturally impoverished and intellectually
deprived, and I personally believe this gap has made it difficult for the
community to grow in a literate society such as the U.S. (and even moreso
in places such as France, where our numbers are pitiful).
cheers Juan Cole, Dept. of History, University of Michigan
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 23:42:32 EST
Subject: Re: QUANTA'S HOME PAGE
Dearly beloved Talismanistas,
Some of you send me e-mail and taking my offer for posting your
pictures as 'Quanta's Talismanian Friends'on the www.home page. I am
very serious about this. I will put your picture, or group picture
some of you took at those conferences, if you send
me one ASAP. Put your name and the date in the back and mail it with
permission to:
Quanta Dawn-Light
809 Tower Street
Raleigh, N.C. 27607-7364
My home phone (919) 833-2452 best time to reach me is late eves or
early mornings. Or, leave a message.
p.s. This weekend I will be adding some more stuff on the home page,
including a chanting of a prayer and reading poetry, if you have
access to multimedia audio equipment, you'll hear Quanta!
Also if John & Linda Walbridge wishes me to I will write a few
introductory lines about my beloved Talisland too. Love y'all.
Thank you God, I needed some pleasant distractions from hoh humm!
I am studying for taking an exam for a job position, so when I am done
I'll be back in full swing my dearest, much missed Talismafriends.
with much love and best wishes,
*** ***
* *
*
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:05:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy A. Nolan"
To: 72110.2126@compuserve.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Conscience
David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com> writes:
> First, the comment, on Tim Nolan's post of yesterday -- Tim, you
> say that "there have to be limits on civil disobedience. Not all
> disobeyers have the noble principles of a Gandhi or M.L. King.
> Some who practice civil disobedience are simply terrorists or
> murderers."
>
dl> I would submit that civil disobedience has a long and powerful
dl> history *because* it has disavowed terrorism and murder.
I certainly agree that non-violent civil disobedience has a history
to be proud of. Unfortunately, not all disobedience is that noble.
Surely it is obvious that there are terrorists and murderers who
are not merely common criminals. Some horrible actions have been
carried out in the name of resisting a government that someone sees
as unjust. In my view, this is really about *principles*.
If we accept the *principle* that it is morally right sometimes to
disobey the law in order to follow what our consciences tell us
is a higher good,....once that *principle* is established, then it
becomes necessary to define clearly what is "moral" and what is
a "higher good". The man who recently murdered the prime minister
of Israel apparently thought he was serving a "higher good".
So, the fundamental question, which will always pester us until
it is answered, is, "Who gets to define what is a 'higher good'"
What one person may think is a just cause for disobeying a law, you may
see as narrow mindedness, paranoia, or a simple lust for vengeful
bloodletting. Who gets to define the circumstances under which civil
disobedience is justified or not justified, and who gets to decide
what acts of disobedience are permissible? I think it is important
to face up to the reality that not everyone is noble minded. Some
people are capable of morally horrific acts, which they call
"civil disobedience" or "freedom fighting". There are many people
who disobey laws, and most of them are not Gandhi or Thoreau.
The existence of the Universal House of Justice makes this
moral dilemma go away. Since the decisions of the House of Justice
are "the truth and the purpose of God Himself", since that body
is "the source of all good and freed from all error" therefore
it follows that there can never be a circumstance when moral principle
will be better served by disobeying the House to follow one's
individual conscience. Following one's conscience may make a person
feel better, but disobeying the truth and the purpose of God Himself
obviously can never be morally right. The voice an individual hears
as his or her conscience is not guaranteed unerring divine guidance;
the House of Justice is guaranteed exactly this.
dl> To lump nonviolent civil disobedience and criminal or genocidal
dl> acts together makes a serious category error.
Oh, I agree with you completely. The point is there ARE people who
make exactly this error. There are people who kill and terrorize
and call it civil disobedience. What should be done about them?
Should people be allowed civil disobedience only if they have
the "right" kind of conscience? If yes, who gets to define
what the "right" kind of conscience is?
dl> The presence of the Universal House of Justice, and their rulings
dl> on various Baha'i laws, helps immeasurably in but does not replace
dl> the operation of the individual conscience.
I agree. In a letter about chastity, published back in 1969, the
Universal House of Justice wrote to the effect that one cannot
be a good Baha'i by merely following a list of rules. The House of
Justice went on to say that it is not possible AND NOT DESIREABLE
for the Universal House of Justice to make rules to tell us precisely
what to do in any possible situation. Instead, the House wrote,
a Baha'i should perform every conscious act in the spirit of service
to God. If a person follows this principle, the House said, he or she
will not fail to realize the true purpose of his or her life.
Tim Nolan
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 1
To: rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com (Ahang Rabbani)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 0:58:59 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Ahang: 16 December 1995
Yours is the clearest picture I've seen on Zuhur al-Haqq. I look
forward to further posts on this monumental work. I am particularly
interested in any information on Baha'u'llah that is not contained in
Nabil (if this is at all possible to determine).
But I have a more general question. I would like to draw an
analogy between the Tehran *House of Justice* (is this accurate? or
anachronistic?), the commissioning of Zuhur al-Haqq and the Baha'i
Encyclopedia Project and its commissioning by the US-NSA/UHJ.
One major difference is that, from what I gather, the Baha'i
Encyclopedia Project is not dead. Comatose, perhaps, but not dead. Zuhur
al-Haqq, however, suffered much more severe vicissitudes. This
historically-encyclopedic project has been dead for decades. The only hope
for it is a physical resurrection.
Despite the fact that *Jinab-i Fadil* was one of the only two
*fully-confirmed Baha'is* whom the beloved Master sent to America (the
other being Mirza Abu'l-Fadl) and despite Fadil's secret rank as a Hand of
the Cause of God, it appears to me that his scholarship was vigorously
opposed by certain powerful influences in Baha'i administration.
Perhaps you might enlarge on this, Ahang. It is a delicate subject
and it is not my intention to scandalize the Administration in Tehran. But
the tensions generated between scholarship and Administration ought to
stand as an object lesson in history.
No one would ever doubt or impugn Fadil's fidelity to the
Covenant. So why was publication of Zuhur al-Haqq opposed? What were the
issues involved?
Once again, Ahang, I am interested in the issues and not in
criticizing the Institutions of the time. I just want your thoughts as to
whether or not Baha'i history is repeating itself in the Baha'i
Encyclopedia Project. I would hope that my analogy does not hold, and that
things have really come quite a long way since then.
If the Baha'i Encyclopedia does get published, which I have faith it
will, will Zuhur al-Haqq as well?
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: think@ucla.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Interesting info
Date: 16 Dec 1995 00:13:07 GMT
This is a reference to the 'our' Mason Remey.
Actually there were 3 complete sets of his materials in the state. One went
to a public library in S E Iowa, don't remember where just now. Iowa
received some of the most complete sets that he sent out because of the
connection of the Mason family (his mother's maiden name) to Iowa. As I
remember, he was born in Iowa, but left at a very early age. His mother's
father was the first Federal Judge in the state, and is considered somewhat
important in the judicial history of the era because of some of his
decisions. Other compete or nearly complete sets were given to Wisconsin
(?), because of his father's family roots, and the District of Columbia (?)
because of the family's involvement in the government and navy.
The issue of the box was first popularized during the move from the old State
Library to the new Historical Building because it was rather difficult to
move. Then when it was opened, several of the local TV stations were on
hand. There was mention of the Faith in connection with it, but he usually
came off sounding like an egotistical nut.
Don C
- sent via an evaluation copy of BulkRate (unregistered).
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 21:09:29 +1300 (NZDT)
To: SFotos@eworld.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Darwinism and the Writings
Sandy wrote,
>Some Baha'i friends in the natural sciences (and me too, since I have a
>background in maine botany )have felt that this statement refers to
>potentiality rather than to morphology.
>
>The particular line which would eventually evolve into humans was always
>distinct and identifiable in terms of its future direction, although not in
>terms of its physical appearance vis a vis other organisms.
>
>Again, may I argue for the longitudinal perspective?
Why not? Religions and the best philosophical systems are inevitably
teleological. But just as the deathless human soul comes into existence at
conception, even when humans were rather amoebic in appearance they were
nonethless essentially separated from all other creatures through their
investment with what 'Abdu'l-Baha calls an ideal endowment. Which -- as
you indicate -- expresses itself only progressively, through unfoldment...
Which is to say, I suppose, that our amoebic thru ape-like forbears will be
present in the next world fully invested with *human* beauty.... As will
aborted foetuses...
Robert (a small black dog with springy step) Johnston
=END=
Date: 16 Dec 95 00:38:15 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: my fuzzy post
To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz, talisman@indiana.edu
Reply to: my fuzzy post
Good question - First the Guardian - I think he said something about not being
an authority on things that are scientific...... science seems to be saying
something different these days. I do not think it takes anything away from what
he says, its in the application.
Northern California sets the standards, for fine whine, freeways, pollution,
both high and low academic standards in our public schools, great weather, some
of the finest scenery in the world, Mt. Shasta, hippies, right wing
fundamenatlists, left wing fundamentalists, Berkeley, technology, art, culture,
smog, fog, a sense that there is a contribution that can be made by everyone in
a society no matter who thery are - the sense gets written into things like
constitutions, human rights, Easelen, affirmative action statements here, Mrs.
Doubtfire, computers, tall trees, Pete's Coffee, great t-shirts, good pizza,
the biggest long distance race in the world (Bay to Breakers 150 000 and no
crime), the most beautiful city in the world (San Francisco is well, ok, one of
them), were only $29.00 away from Disneyland, multiethnic junkfood (I had a
salmon burrito today)...... oh yeah gay rights.
Admittedly not all of these standards are those that should be adopted by
everyone, its just a cool place that a lot of people move to from all over the
world. I think the same can be said about about a hundred thousand other palces
on the planet. - Daniel (not meaning to be a cultural snob)
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: epiphanies & reverence
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 07:50:06 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi, Eric -
You're welcome, Eric. Sorry for taking so long to get back to you.
My Internet provider was down for a little over a day, and I am trying
to gradually get caught up on my mail which had build up to 187 messages!
P>Mark, you know it is probably ok for you to say you are pissed when
P>people make snide comments about why you are still not married, and it
P>is probably also ok to say you are frustrated with something about the
P>discussion here. Let it out, it's better than letting it fester. You
P>are a great guy, I really appreciate what you have contributed.
Thank you, brother Eric ;-). Actually, these sorts of statements do
not bother me. In the case you are referring to, I think that the poster
was well-intentioned and was speaking out of a sincere concern. At
*other times*, however (not in the situation you are referring to here
in cyberspace), I have had people try to convince me that I *should* get
married. Some have even produced Baha'i texts, out of context IMO, to
support their contention. I tend to take such statements, however
inappropriate, as expressions of where the "other guy" is coming from.
I try not to judge these people. What they say honestly does not bother
me. OTOH, direct, personal name-calling can, as you know, stir me up.
However, recognizing that weakness in myself, I have of late been doing
some inner work so that, hopefully, I can, if appropriate, mention my
displeasure without *reacting* to that either.
P>I don't know if I should be AWED by Mark, Tim and Robert's reverence/faith
P>in the infallability/sinlessness (or whatever term you like) of the House
P>of Justice, or HORRIFIED by the possibility that because of that faith,
P>they would seem to be willing to give up their responsibility to protect
P>a friend's life under the hypothetical circumstances that we have been
P>discussing.
Speaking only for myself, my feeling is that the Bab and Baha'u'llah
also wish the highest for God's servants, and I trust that, as They
guide the Supreme Body in its deliberations, its members will come to a
decision which will be for the best of all concerned - even though
neither myself nor my friend may understand the wisdom involved.
Warm greetings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-)
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: miscellaneous
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 07:50:07 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hannah, Dan, Terry, and other Talismanians -
Hannah, I appreciated your message. Personally, I do not feel that
people are playing games, but I think that we are all aware of one or
more ideological gulfs on Talisman, and some folks are trying to
understand those who have a different view of things than they do.
I am also saddened by the AOL problem. Certainly, the National
Center should be informed. If Rob Stockman has been reading these
messages, perhaps he could, with Dan's consent, relay this information
to the secretary's office (unless, of course, they are already aware of
it).
Since I am one of two supervisory AOL Baha'i staff, I will take it
upon myself to discreetly inquire further into this matter. However, I
am the chief Baha'i chat host (with my two assistants). It is the other
administrator who is responsible for the message board. Fortunately, we
have not seen any comparable rudeness on the Front Porch (the religion
and ethics chat area).
Dan, if you need the screen name of the Baha'i message board host, I
can email it to you privately.
Terry, I enjoyed reading about your teaching efforts among the Jews.
As someone who comes from a Jewish background, I have always wished that
there were some way to formally promote such teaching efforts without
endangering the special relationship that Baha'is have with the nation
of Israel.
Fortunately, there is a great deal of universalism in some sectors
of the Jewish community. For example, ALEPH, the major organization
devoted to Jewish renewal (which I am a member of - since one need not
have Judaism as one's formal religion in order to join), has been
working on returning spiritual vitality to the Jewish community. Its
founder is Reb Zalman Schachter-Shalomi, a former Lubavicher rabbi, who
now, by his own admission (in the book _Paradigm Shift_), is trying to
do the same thing for Judaism as Matthew Fox has for Roman Catholicism
(now, of course, Anglo-Catholicism). Like Fox, Reb Zalman (as he is
known) refers to eco-spirituality and calls the earth by its Greek name,
gaia (with all its wonderfully neo-pagan connotations).
I wonder if Jewish renewal and ALEPH could be a "thought bridge" to
reach out to these people - to find a common focus? As an aside, I
personally feel that the late Marian Lippitt and Foundation for the
Science of Reality may have a *similar*, though not identical, function
within the Baha'i community as Fox's Institute for Creation Spirituality
is having within Christianity and Reb Zalman's ALEPH is having within
Judaism.
Bright blessings,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* Structuralists Know the Lingo ;-)
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 05:41:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Zuhur'l-Haqq and Encyclopedia
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Once again through sheer brilliance, Chris Buck has managed to cut
through all the smoke and put his finger right on the heart of the
issues -- the short answer is: yes, there are a lot of
similarities between what happened to Zuhuru'l-Haqq and the
current status of the Baha'i Encyclopedia.
Let me first state what I know as to what happened with
Zuhuru'l-Haqq project. The lessons may then be obvious.
On 11 Jalal 107 BE (1951) the NSA of Iran (Ali-Akbar Furutan was
NSA secretary) published a 16 page open letter which at the end
contains a short response by Fadil. This letter was the kiss of
death for both Zuhurh'l-Haqq series and Fadil's scholarship and
reputation. He spent the latter part of his life away from the
Baha'i community -- though extremely active in teaching field.
After the passing of his wife, he married a Muslim woman and his
three sons were raised with deep resentments towards the Baha'i
community in general -- though they are very knowledgeable about
the Cause and have many good Baha'i friends. His youngest son
lives here in Houston, another passed away (in Ohio?) with the
eldest (he is about 80 years old now) being in the States now
seeking medical treatment (heart problem).
Of most concern is that Fadil had some extremely valuable and
*unique* Texts and documents in his possessions, not to mention
the fact that he had completed a number of very important books on
the Faith which I believe he never shared with the administration
and left with his sons -- which either have all been destroyed or
awaits freezing of hell before they are handed over to the Faith.
As an example of some of the books which he has completed but you
never hear anyone mentioning it is a massive Encyclopedia on the
Cause under the title "Asraru'l-Athar-i Umumi" (General Mysteries
of the Writings). Years earlier he published a 5-volume Baha'i
encyclopedia series titled "Asraru'l-Athar-i Khususi" (Specific
Mysteries of the Writings) which no serious Baha'i student should
be without. But his "Umumi" version was apparently the finest
single piece of scholarship ever attempted in the Cause and its a
great shame if destroyed -- or never published.
But again, what is of greatest importance is the massive amount of
Tablets and original documents which he had in his possession
which never found their way to the Cause. Some time ago, when I
was posting on Quddus (I believe my first post on this topic), I
discussed that for example he had a Tablet of Baha'u'llah in his
possession where He states that had the Bab not declared, then
Quddus would have. (Dr. Muhammad Afnan in Andalib states there is
not such Tablet, but I think he knows better.)
Anyway, the question is what happened with this most productive
Baha'i scholar of all time (in my view, several orders of
magnitude above Mirza Abu'l-Fadl or anyone else in the Faith)?
The answer to this question is with "the Dawnbreakers"!
All roads eventually lead to "The Dawnbreakers" which the beloved
Guardian has stated is the "standard for Baha'i history", but in
reality has served as the standard for Baha'i fundamentalism.
"The Dawnbreakers" in my view is the biggest barrier to Baha'i
scholarship! In fact, one can trace back the emergence of Baha'i
fundamentalism right to the publication of this book and then
exaggerated statements about it being "THE STANDARD".
And that's when Fadil's troubles began.
Fadil's view of history was based on several decades of
incomparable collection of Texts, documents, narratives,
interviews with old believers and extensive travels throughout the
region -- not to mentioned a very elevated sense of devotion to
the Cause which both Abdu'l-Baha and the beloved Guardian have
praised repeatedly.
So, what happened?
Fadil had completed his first 3 volumes when Ali-Akbar Furutan got
all bent out of shape. Now Furutan was (and is) somewhat of
intellectual lightweight (and I'm afraid history won't be very
kind to him on his writings, unless the House send out (which they
will!) an extremely glowing cable after his death to silence all
his critics (which are many)).
This is all in early 1930's. So, Furutan, knowing that he
couldn't take on a great mind like Fadil, got together with a real
intellectual superstar (well, fast becoming one in those days),
namely, my other hero, Ishraq-Khavari. Together they made a case
that certain points in Zuhuru'l-Haqq series do not conform to The
Dawnbreaker -- the "standard"! So, they write to the Guardian.
This makes Shoghi Effendi all upset with Zuhuru'l-Haqq as he
didn't like anything that deviated by a dot from the Dawnbreakers.
So on 15 September 1932, he writes (my inadequate translation):
"Immediately organize a special committee to investigate,
reorganize and bring into conformity Jinab-i Fadil's history
with that of Nabil's history [the Dawnbreakers]. Of this
task and grave responsibility, no delay is permitted, and
utmost effort must be diligently exerted."
Poor Fadil. After a letter like this from the Guardian, well,
his goose was cooked.
What happened next is the ugliest chapter in Baha'i scholarship
which has ever occurred. If you think things are bad now with
respect to scholarship, well, you ain't seen nothing.
(I have no intention of discussing the details on Talisman, and
if pressed, will move the conversation over to Tarjuman, but in
truth really rather not disclose any details, mostly because
there is no guarantee that what I know is really what happened.
Remember, I'm just a young lad in my 30's, I wasn't around in
those days.)
What is a matter of public record and I can safely state is that
a committee was organized and closely (word by word) examined
Zuhuru'l-Haqq. Now the Guardian wanted this to be done
overnight. Well it took nearly 20 years to complete this process
(Fadil's "confessional" letter is dated 1951). So, those hoping
for a quick resolution of Baha'i Encyclopedia impasse may wish to
make note of this.
At the end, as I said, NSA of Iran published a 16 page letter
outlining all the "errors" in ZH-3 and included Fadil's own short
letter giving a blanket agreement with their comments.
This letter of NSA of Iran is the greatest stupidity ever
committed by a Baha'i institution and shows only their depth of
ignorance. I will share its content as our discussion of ZH-3
unfolds.
This letter resulted in discouraging a model servant of the Faith
from further association with Baha'i administration and silenced
anyone who dared to do serious or independent scholarship.
Forever though the memory of this illustrious scholar of the
Cause is inscribed upon the hearts of those seeking knowledge.
The incredible injustice that took place a half-century ago must
be set right, and it is my intention to speak publicly, openly
and supportive of the Hand of the Cause of God Fadil-i
Mazandarani wherever I can. If justice means anything to you, I
implore you to do likewise.
With devotion to the Faith, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 09:35:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: Member1700@aol.com, talisman
Subject: Review / Provisional Translations
Dear Tony,
I am asking you this question via Talisman in case others are
curious, too. Recently, someone (I apologize for forgetting who) broke
down into a few specific categories the reasons that review would reject
a text, one of which was the use of provisional translations. Yet, in
SBBR Vol. 5, Lambden's "Sinaitic Mysteries" is full of provisional
translations. I quote footnote 62, p. 166: "Unless otherwise indicated
all translations from Persian and Arabic sources are my own." How was
this possible? And, I'm not sure about this, but didn't Lawson also
translate some of his quotations of the Bab's works in the first essay
himself?
-Jonah
PS- If anyone reading this note has not read the book, let me encourage
you to do so. It is, along with Chris's volume, one of the very best
academic books on the Faith yet produced. We owe great thanks to Kalimat
for producing such fine work!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 10:02:02 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Review and translation
To: talisman@indiana.edu
One of the reasons that I have written virtually nothing for publication
on the Faith (apart from a great many unpublished encyclopedia
articles) is that it is virtually impossible to write anything substantive
about Baha'i thought without doing translations. For example, my
own academic speciality is Islamic philosophy, which sheds great
light on Baha'i texts like *Some Answered Questions*, but even
when such texts are translated, the translations are not suitable for
the kind of technical use I would wish to make up them. Nima
can explain why, for instance, I could not use the chapter in
SAQ that translates "wahdat al-wujud" as "pantheism". It is not
that there is anything wrong with the translations; it is just that
a translation made for devotional use is probably not going to be
usable for theological analysis. The rules have loosened in recent
years, so that people now talk about "provisional translations" or
"paraphrases," but the situation is still not very satisfactory.
There is a larger problem here, in fact. A field like Baha'i studies
is comparable to fields like the classics, Egyptology, or Islamic studies.
Such fields develop in a logical way, the first step being to make
sources available. That means that we now ought to be concentrating
on publishing primary texts, translating, cataloging, etc. Apart from
the systematic cataloging of primary texts being done in the Holy
Land (which are generally not available to scholars) and the American Baha'i
archives, the rules about review and translation have made such
activity very difficult. We have no critical edition of any work of
Baha'i scripture; the only full editions and translations of any Babi works
have been done by Azalis and non-Baha'is respectively. None of the
primary sources for the life of Baha'u'llah have been published. Such
limitations discourage scholars, Baha'i and non-Baha'i, from seriously
pursuing the field. After all, to do a critical edition (for non-specialists,
a "critical edition" is an edition of a text that uses as many manuscripts
as possible to produce a reliable version of the text) of, say, Qayyumu'l-
Asma', the first major work of the Bab, would take a scholar two to
four years. It would be a worthy project, but no one is going to
undertake it unless he is reasonably sure that he can publish it without
interference. The real cost of fiascos like the Salmani affair and the
Baha'i Encyclopedia is that they discourage scholars from involving
themselves in such projects, even if they actually are commissioned
or pre-approved by Baha'i institutions.
john walbridge
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:58:11 +0100 (MET)
Subject: homosexuality
To: talisman@indiana.edu
John (W),
Just to say I appreciated your posting
regarding the 'legalisation' of homosexual
marriages. Perhaps some less formal type
of modus vivendi might be more practically
realizable at present. Such as a statement to the
effect that there is no reason why the Baha'i
community should concern itself with the sexual
relations or abstinence, as the case may be, of
people living together, whether or not they have
formally undertaken a civil marriage (which is legally
recognized for homosexuals in the Netherlands, as I
understand it). But on the other hand, it might be
considered inappropriate at present to apply other aspects
of Baha'i law, such as the dowry and parental permission.
Politics is the art of the possible
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:59:05 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Quddus
To: talisman@indiana.edu
On 9 November Ahang posted a piece on Quddus's Commentary on the Sad of Samad,
in which he said that this was variously stated as being 500,000 verses and
6 times as long as the Quran. The later figure should at any rate be a 3:
the reference is on p 357:
In the days of his confinement in the town of Sari, Quddus,
whom Mirza Muhammad-Taqi had requested to write a commentary
on the Surih of Ikhlas, better known as the Surih of
Qul Huva'llahu'l-Ahad, composed, in his interpretation
of the Sad of Samad alone, a treatise which was thrice
as voluminous as the Qur'an itself.
If this is an ongoing work, the 480,200 missing verses might have been
composed later, but there is a reference on p 409 which tells us the
manuscript fitted in a single saddle-bag. (There is another reference
to the commentary on p 390, which also gives an inkling of the level
to which a fireside can aspire!). I assume that the 500,000 is mythical
rather than arithmetical in the case of Quddus: what about the Bab? Give
his long confinement and the availability of secretaries, is 500,000 verses
entirely unrealistic in his case?
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 10:04:14 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: List Rules
To: talisman@indiana.edu
The list rules and customs are posted periodically for the benefit of
new members and for the exhortation of the old. I remind the honored
members of the prohibition of ad hominem arguments and the fact
that the culture of the list runs to the argumentitive.
John Walbridge
******
TALISMAN is an unmoderated forum for discussion of issues
related to the Babi and Baha'i Faiths: history, theology, social issues, etc.
Content can include discussion of relevant issues, queries, announcements,
advertisements of books of interest to the members, etc. The list owner is
John Walbridge, Professor of Near Eastern Languages and of Philosophy,
Indiana University, Bloomington.
1. The service is provided through the University Computer Center of
Indiana University. Participants are reminded that this service is paid for
by the taxpayers of the state of Indiana, that the fundamental purpose of
this list is scholarly, and that discussion should thus be conducted on the
basis of evidence and rational argument. The list is open to anyone
approved by the list owner.
2. The list is actually an automatic forwarding device. The list owner does
not moderate content, nor does he wish to do so. Participants are free to
argue for whatever views they wish, provided they do so courteously and
on the basis of evidence and sound reasoning.
3. Any mail addressed to the list--TALISMAN@INDIANA.EDU--will be
automatically forwarded as e-mail to all members of the list.
4. Participants are reminded that they are on the list as guests of the list
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=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 10:21:27 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: intelligent readers
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Robert, the answer to your question as to whether we have any intelligent
readers of history (incl. evolution) is: YES! Linda
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 11:23:11 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: antonpf@name.net (Anton Pickard-Ferguson)
Subject: Introducing myself to the list
Greetings,
Being a new subscriber, I'd like to introduce myself to the other memebers
of the list.
I am 42 years old, married with a daughter and live in Toronto, Ontario. My
vocation is a multimedia artist/producer as a partner in a small company.
My primary role is creating computer graphics and animation for
presentations, CD-ROM, print and video productions.
My interest in this list stems from being a Baha'i in the past but not at
present. My journey has brought me back to an investigation of the Faith
and I look forward to participating with others as I struggle with my
questions.
best regards to all,
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anton Pickard-Ferguson
In.Visible.Media, Toronto, Ontario,
Net: antonpf@name.net | CIS: 71141.2323@compuserve.com
Voice: (416) 252-1650 | Fax: (416) 253-4443
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 09:42:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Quddus
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Sen,
You wrote:
> On 9 November Ahang posted a piece on Quddus's Commentary on the Sad
> of Samad, in which he said that this was variously stated as being
> 500,000 verses and 6 times as long as the Quran. The later figure
> should at any rate be a 3: the reference is on p 357:
> In the days of his confinement in the town of Sari, Quddus, whom
> Mirza Muhammad-Taqi had requested to write a commentary on the Surih
> of Ikhlas, better known as the Surih of Qul Huva'llahu'l-Ahad,
> composed, in his interpretation of the Sad of Samad alone, a treatise
> which was thrice as voluminous as the Qur'an itself.
Actually the passage you quote continues to say:
"That exhaustive and masterly exposition had profoundly impressed
Mirza Muhammad-Taqi and had been responsible for the marked
consideration which he showed towards Quddus, although in the end he
joined the Sa'idu'l-'Ulama' in compassing the death of the heroic
martyrs of Shaykh Tabarsi. Quddus continued, while besieged in that
fort, to write his commentary on that Surih, and was able, despite
the vehemence of the enemy's onslaught, to pen as many verses as he
had previously written in Sari in his interpretation of that same
letter."
The way I read these, and I'm very much open to receiving corrections,
is that Quddus wrote half of it, 3 times the size of Qur'an in Sari and
then the second half, hence a total of 6 Qur'an, at Fort Tabarsi. Does
that make sense? Did I misread Nabil?
The passage in the Dawnbreakes continues yet to say:
"The rapidity and copiousness of his composition, the inestimable
treasures which his writings revealed, filled his companions with
wonder and justified his leadership in their eyes. They read eagerly
the pages of that commentary which Mulla Husayn brought to them each
day and to which he paid his share of tribute."
Believe me (and if you don't ask Juan Cole who knows Quddus infinitely
better than I), these statement are so true. His composition is so
fantastic that it overwhelms.
> I assume that the 500,000 is mythical rather than arithmetical in the
> case of Quddus: what about the Bab? Give his long confinement and the
> availability of secretaries, is 500,000 verses entirely unrealistic
> in his case?
Again, for now, I'm sticking to my theory that certain references to
Quddus and the Bab are mixed up because of the identical titles that
they had and that's where Nabil got confused over 500,000 verses for
Quddus.
The figure for the total amount of Bab's Writings as 500,000 verses, as
you well know, comes form the Persian Bayan. Now that was written mid
point (3 years) into his Ministry. Of the remaining years, He wrote
very little (actually only massive Tablets of Visitation for Quddus and
Mulla Husayn) and a Persian work, and a few other odds and ends, from
May 1849 (Quddus' martyrdom) to July 1850. So basically the last 14
months of His life He composed little.
That leaves us with nearly 2 years between the time of His statement in
the Persian Bayan to May 1849. He must have composed many, many items
during this period, so in my view 500,000 is a gross underestimate.
Besides look at the volume of His Writings contained in INBA series.
Its huge. I don't know how many verses, but its huge.
Now, does it add up to 7 or 8 hundred thousands verses (or at least
500,000 as testified in the Persian Bayan)? No way! Probably half of
it. Maybe even less. Ergo, a large chunk (half?) is missing. But the
rumor has it that there is hope .... ;-}
Do others (John, Juan, Lambden...) have a thought on these? I for one
am very interested to learn what you have to share.
regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 11:04:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 3
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Beloved Friends,
Since everyone has been so tolerant of my incoherent comments on
Zuhuru'l-Haqq, I thought to share a bit more as to their contents,
so with your permission, I like to concentrate for now on the first
volume that I have in my possession, namely, ZH-3 and hope that
others would correct any inadvertent misrepresentation. (By the
way, my earlier posting titled "Zuhuru'l-Haqq and Encyclopedia" is
now considered part 2 of these series of postings (as if you really
cared ...)
In the introduction to this 532 page book, Fadil states that his
purpose in this third volume (out of 9-vol series) is to provide:
1. biographical information on believers during the Babi
Dispensation,
2. efforts of the enemies of the Cause,
3. description of Holy places associated with the early days of
the Faith
4. a general history of the Babi community in each region.
As we will see, in may ways this book is closely connected to ZH-2
and indeed a reading of it without the earlier volumes (and ZH-6)
is relatively unsatisfactory. This is because just about all the
topics discussed, have their full story told in ZH-2, and then for
many of the survivers of the Babi period, he picks up the rest of
their story in ZH-6. More on this later.
Fadil has organized the book according to the major regions of Iran
and then within each, discusses key communities and prominent
figures, both friends and foes, as well as a describing buildings
where the Bab visited or otherwise is of importance to the history
of the Cause.
I think for our purposes, its best if I outline the contents of
this book under the headings:
1. Writings of the Bab
2. References to the Revelation of the Bab
3. Documents
4. References to books and treatise
5. References to ZH-2 and ZH-6 (and other ZH's)
6. Regions
7. Holy Places
I hope this is acceptable to all. So, here we go ...
1. Writings of the Bab
Jinab-i Fadil quotes extensively from the Writings of the Bab
which he himself had a particular affinity for -- as we all do.
He included the following extracts (listed below by page number)
from the Writings of the Bab, and I'll try to include *very brief*
comments, unless folks want more detailed discussion of certain
Tablets, in which case Juan or John will do the honor:
Pd-j: Arabic, 1.5 pages long, in praise and glorification of
God, states at the end that sufficient proof (play on words here,
since one of the title of the Bab is the Proof) has been divulged
in the Book.
P13-16: Arabic, 3.5 pages long, the Bab discusses a number of
events which befell Him during the first three years of His
ministry, for example on the opening paragraph gives the exact
date of entrance in Mah-Ku prison, events leading up to His
imprisonment, showers praise on such earlier figures as Shaykh
Baha'i, Shaykh Ahmad, Siyyid Kazim, Mir Damad and expresses His
servitude unto the Threshold of Almighty, and pays homage to
earlier Prophets and holy figures.
P20-22: Arabic, 3 pages, in response to questions of one of the
Letters of the Living, Mulla Baqir-i Tabrizi, as to why so much of
the Bayan is devoted to Him Whom God will make manifest. This is
among the last Tablets of the Bab and is extremely important as in
there, He once again reiterates that He, His Revelation and all the
Letters of the Living, are but a creation of Him [Baha'u'llah] and
serve His Threshold. At one point (towards the end), the Bab
states categorically that He (Baha'u'llah) will appear in the year
80 [1280H = 1863], and that His recognition is not possible except
through His Writings. In many ways, this Tablet could be
considered the Bab's final testament, though He had a formal Will.
P53-54: Arabic, 1.5 pages, Revealed in Mah-Ku, in response to
the questions of Mirza Ahmad's Abdal-i Maraghi'i, elucidating a
particular verse of Qur'an.
P68(extra): Arabic, 3 pages, three examples of the Bab's
handwritings and 2 of His seals. One of the reproduced specimen
is the Bab's response to a query which He penned on the margin
of the incoming letter.
P69: Persian, 0.5 pages, an extract from the Persian Bayan where
He claims divinity and says that of all things mentioned in
Qur'an the most important is the Day of Resurrection (allusion to
the Bab's appearance).
P69: Arabic, 0.3 pages, a brief extract from one His prayers
P70-72: Arabic, 2.5 pages, Revealed in Mah-Ku, a Tablet
addressed to Mulla Muhammad-Taqi Harudi, where He emphatically
outlines His own stations and claims Qa'imiyyat. (Fadil points out
that in ZH-2 another major Tablet where the Bab's claim for
Qa'imiyyat is outlined was quoted. Though I don't know exactly
what Tablet Fadil is mentioning, I am familiar with a powerful
Tablet by the Bab, quoted by Abbas Alavi, where His station of
Qa'imiyyat is clearly and emphatically established.)
P82-85: Arabic, 3 pages, the Bab's Tablet addressed to Muhammad
Shah. The Bab wrote a total of at least 5 Tablets to Muhammad Shah
(for a discussion of them see my humble series of articles on the
Writings of the Bab in Payam-i Baha'i of last year). In these
Tablets, He gradually unleashed the wrath of God towards this
indecisive monarch who failed to recognize Him.
P85-89: Arabic, 4 pages, in this Tablet addressed to Haj Mirza
Aqasi, the Bab in the strongest language rebukes the incompetent
Prime Minister, assures his of his downfall and eternal damnation.
(Mirza Aqasi received a total of 3 Tablet from the Bab, and I
believe this must be the very last one addressed to him. On page
94, Fadil mentions that the other two Tablets addressed to this man
are quoted in ZH-2.)
P90: Persian, 0.2 pages, a brief extract from the Persian Bayan
where He refers to the building He occupied in Isfahan and the
significance and exalted character of all buildings associated with
Him.
P106: Arabic, 0.2 pages, a brief extract where He refers to one of
the Letters of the Living, Mulla Ali-y Bastami, (the first to leave
Shiraz for Iraq) and says that he recognized the truth by a single
verse without requiring any other proofs.
P106: Arabic, 0.4 pages, a brief extract from the Bab's Tablet of
Visitation for Imam Ali where Mulla Ali Bastami is referred to as
the "gem of the believers" and much praise is showered upon him.
P107: Arabic, 0.1 pages, a sentence out of the 2nd Tablet
addressed to Shaykh Muhammad Hasan (who is also mentioned in the
Kitab-i Aqdas as the one who failed to recognized the Bab, and he
is the author of 24 volumes "Javahiru'l-Kalam" (an encyclopedia of
Islamic law) -- the most useless pile of nonsense ever assembled!),
where Mulla Ali-y Bastami is referred to as to "the one who
prostrated himself before Me".
P122-24: Arabic, 2 pages, a general proclamatory Tablet of the Bab
to "the people of Bayan" where all believers are urged to "hasten
to the land of Kh (Khurasan)" to attain the presence of Mulla
Husayn, engage in teaching the Faith there, and render [Mulla]
Husayn victorious. (Husayn is mentioned a few times in this
Tablet, and I firmly believe that it alludes also to Baha'u'llah.)
This Tablet begs to be translated. Its powerful. Pulsates with
call to action and majestic language.
Well, I've bored you all enough for one posting, we'll pick it up
again later.
much love to all, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:31:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: tarjuman@umich.edu
Subject: Baha'u'llah's notes to Ode of the Dove
I am slowly continuing to digitalize my translation of Baha'u'llah's
notes to his "Ode of the Dove," a mystical poem written in Sulaymaniyyah,
a provisional translation of which I posted earlier. Here is the note to
verse 8:
7. The mistral's fragrance wafted from Her hair,
and Beauty's eyes were solaced by Her gaze.
8. Her shining face gave Guidance sage advice,
and Moses' soul was cleansed by Her form's blaze.
8. When Moses cleansed and sanctified the feet of the divine Self,
Who had been consigned to human form, from the sandals of
contingent fancies and drew forth the hand of divine Power from the
fold of grandeur in the cloak of splendor, He arrived in the holy, good
and blessed valley of the heart. This is the base of the throne of
everlasting effulgence and the seat of divine and glorious converse.
And when He reached that land of Sinai, which lieth outstretched to
the right of the illumined Spot, He smelled the perfumed odor of the
Spirit from east of eternity, and perceived the undying lights from all
directions, without direction. After the darkened glass of self had been
removed, the wick of the divine Essence blazed forth in the lamp of his
heart, ignited by the passionate scent of godly love and the flaming
brand of the fire of divine unity. And after the stations of opposition
had been eliminated, He arrived in the valley of eternal sobriety
through the wine of the attainment to an incomparable Countenance
and the pure nectar of the imperishable.
Through the attractive power of His longing for the divine
Meeting, He became aware of the city of everlasting life. "He entered
the city at a time when its people were heedless" (Q. 28:15). And
behold, He discerned the fire of the timeless godhead, and shone with
the light of the Almighty God. He said to His family, "Do ye tarry
here. Verily, I observe a fire" (Q. 20:10). When He discovered and
perceived the visage of pre-existent, most gracious Guidance in the
tree that is neither of the east nor the west (Q. 24:35), the changeable
and ephemeral face was honored and glorified by attaining to the
ancient, imperishable Countenance. In the blazing fire He discovered
the wondrous, inaccessible visage of Guidance which had been
concealed in the bosoms of the Unseen. This is that to which He then
gave utterance: "or I shall find guidance in this fire." (Q. 20:10).
Even so, perceive ye the intent of the blessed verse, "He who
made for ye fire from the green tree." (Q. 36:80). O would that there
were a listener to comprehend it, and that one drop from the vast
ocean of fire, one spark from the storehouse of flames, could be
mentioned. But it is better, after all, that this pearl remain hidden
within the shell of pure longing and stored in the vessels of secrecy,
that every stranger might be excluded and every intimate friend may be
garbed in pilgrim's dress before the Ka`bah of splendor, that he may
enter the sanctuary of beauty. How happy is the soul that consumes
the cage of the body in the flames of the fire of love, and becomes the
familiar of the Spirit, that he may attain unto the exalted mercy of
repose, and that the lofty bounty of glory may be bestowed upon him.
All that of which mention hath been made concerning the ranks
of guidance and the grades of self-purification in the station of Moses-
-may peace be upon Him and our Prophet--hath reference to the
manifestation of these effulgences in the world of outward
appearances. Otherwise, that Exalted One was always and shall
forever be led by the guidance of God. Nay, more, it was from Him
that the sun of guidance dawned and the moon of God's grace
appeared. It was from His essential being that the flames of the divine
Essence were ignited, and from the brilliance of His forehead that the
light of eternity became radiant. He Himself resolved such doubts by
the words He spoke when questioned by Pharaoh about the man He
had killed. He responded, "I did it indeed, and I was one of those who
erred. And I fled from you when I feared you; but My Lord hath given
Me judgment and hath made Me One of the Apostles." (Q. 26:20-21).
The discourse hath come to an end, though in truth this matter is
inexhaustible and unending.
Note: This passage is extremely important for Baha'u'llah's
theophanology, since it explains how he thought the Manifestation of God
could *both* be spoken of as traversing various spiritual stations and
growing in spiritual stature *and* could be spoken of as an eternal sun
of guidance. The former diction has to do with the tajalli or
effulgence/manifestation of these attributes in the external world, while
the latter diction has to do with the esoteric world. The metaphysical
assumptions here, as Nima will recognize, derive from the Ibn al-`Arabi
tradition. Baha'u'llah's solution is important, because otherwise Moses'
admission in the Qur'an that he was among the sinners or those gone
astray (Da:lli:n) appears to contradict the Shi`ite/Babi tenet of the
`iSmat or infallibility/immaculacy of the Prophets. Here is evidence
that Baha'u'llah thought prophets could commit murder exoterically while
maintaining their immaculacy esoterically (presumably on the level of the
Universal Intellect).
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 10:20:56 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Dastardly Plot.
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
My dear Talismanians
Due to dark forces at work , we had no power at Bosch until late last
night from Monday . So I have just scanned the wide variety of messages
. I shall be posting on Sunday the True story of Linda in DC . Also I
have some interesting information on removal of rights in the USA
Baha'i Community which I will post as well the publishing issue .
Last night I was asked to go to a special fireside in San Jose . The
San Jose Chief of Police and the Chairman of the San Jose Airport
Commission came to hear about the Faith , great fireside went on after
10.30 started at 7.00 . We are meeting them again to continue.
Did you miss me Linda?
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Subject: Darwin on the Brain...
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:06:10 -0600 (CST)
>
> Robert Johnston wrote
> >>Clearly Darwin's view must be reconciled with 'Abdu'l-Baha's. And I refer
> particularly to Darwin's failure to see that -- to paraphrase 'Abdu'l-Baha--
> "man was always man."
Sandy Fotos wrote:
>
> Some Baha'i friends in the natural sciences (and me too, since I have a
> background in maine botany )have felt that this statement refers to
> potentiality rather than to morphology.
>
> The particular line which would eventually evolve into humans was always
> distinct and identifiable in terms of its future direction, although not in
> terms of its physical appearance vis a vis other organisms.
>
> Again, may I argue for the longitudinal perspective?
I guess I see this point coming up again and again among Baha'is, that is:
physically humans resemble animals but their line was distinct all along...
I just want to say that in terms of the natural sciences, I can see no way
whatsoever of making this a meaningful statement. In other words you can make
the claim that a billion years ago Amoeba A mutated and gave rise to one
lineage of organisms and Amoeba B mutated and gave rise to another lineage of
organisms including humans, however there would be no empirical way of
demonstrating that Amoeba A and Amoeba B were distinct in some significant way
(at least biologically/physically) such that humans had to evolve from
Amoeba B rather than Amoeba A. As far was I can see the only way to make the
distinction of humans from other creatures, all along, plausible in any way
is to argue the point metaphysically/metaphorically. This,
argument,however, rests primarily on Faith rather than empirical verifiability
and will tend to carry little weight with individuals outside of the Faith.
A variation on the separateness of humans theme is to point out how distinct
humans are in terms of their non-physical qualities; that is, physically
humans resemble animals, but "spiritually" they are distinct and have been all
along. The "hard" response from your average biologist will be that what
distinguishes humans is their sophisticated brain, which incidentally, evolved
physically along with the rest of the body. This is a very tough problem to
think about and we need good thinking on this issue to become more convincing
to the rest of the world.
I don't mean to sound cynical or negative, but I've tended to observe a
tendency within the Baha'i community to gloss over these sorts of issues, which
are actually of fundamental importance in properly "squaring" reason with
faith.. How can we make a convincing case that
humans are not extremely sophisticated animals, what arguments can we make
that it's not just a better brain that distinguishes us; why argue that we
have a soul or talk about "spirituality" if it might all amount to having better
biochips in head!! We can do it, but we need to try!! Philosophers of
science grab your pens!!!
OK, I'll get off my soap-box now...
Warmest Regards to All!
Ken
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 14:26:53
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Ahang Rabbani"
Subject: Re[2]: Quddus
Have we any idea whether the number "500,000" was meant to be literal
or figurative? For example, in *God Passes By* Shoghi Effendi says
Baha'u'llah composed one hundred volumes of works. We now know he
wrote 15,000-20,000 tablets, but the Guardian did not have access to
such a statistic; under such circumstances, "100 volumes" is an
excellent way of making the scale of Baha'u'llah's revelation
apparent. But the number probably is not literal.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Quddus
Author: "Ahang Rabbani" at INTERNET
Date: 12/16/95 11:17 AM
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Sen,
You wrote:
> On 9 November Ahang posted a piece on Quddus's Commentary on the Sad
> of Samad, in which he said that this was variously stated as being
> 500,000 verses and 6 times as long as the Quran. The later figure
> should at any rate be a 3: the reference is on p 357:
> In the days of his confinement in the town of Sari, Quddus, whom
> Mirza Muhammad-Taqi had requested to write a commentary on the Surih
> of Ikhlas, better known as the Surih of Qul Huva'llahu'l-Ahad,
> composed, in his interpretation of the Sad of Samad alone, a treatise
> which was thrice as voluminous as the Qur'an itself.
Actually the passage you quote continues to say:
"That exhaustive and masterly exposition had profoundly impressed
Mirza Muhammad-Taqi and had been responsible for the marked
consideration which he showed towards Quddus, although in the end he
joined the Sa'idu'l-'Ulama' in compassing the death of the heroic
martyrs of Shaykh Tabarsi. Quddus continued, while besieged in that
fort, to write his commentary on that Surih, and was able, despite
the vehemence of the enemy's onslaught, to pen as many verses as he
had previously written in Sari in his interpretation of that same
letter."
The way I read these, and I'm very much open to receiving corrections,
is that Quddus wrote half of it, 3 times the size of Qur'an in Sari and
then the second half, hence a total of 6 Qur'an, at Fort Tabarsi. Does
that make sense? Did I misread Nabil?
The passage in the Dawnbreakes continues yet to say:
"The rapidity and copiousness of his composition, the inestimable
treasures which his writings revealed, filled his companions with
wonder and justified his leadership in their eyes. They read eagerly
the pages of that commentary which Mulla Husayn brought to them each
day and to which he paid his share of tribute."
Believe me (and if you don't ask Juan Cole who knows Quddus infinitely
better than I), these statement are so true. His composition is so
fantastic that it overwhelms.
> I assume that the 500,000 is mythical rather than arithmetical in the
> case of Quddus: what about the Bab? Give his long confinement and the
> availability of secretaries, is 500,000 verses entirely unrealistic
> in his case?
Again, for now, I'm sticking to my theory that certain references to
Quddus and the Bab are mixed up because of the identical titles that
they had and that's where Nabil got confused over 500,000 verses for
Quddus.
The figure for the total amount of Bab's Writings as 500,000 verses, as
you well know, comes form the Persian Bayan. Now that was written mid
point (3 years) into his Ministry. Of the remaining years, He wrote
very little (actually only massive Tablets of Visitation for Quddus and
Mulla Husayn) and a Persian work, and a few other odds and ends, from
May 1849 (Quddus' martyrdom) to July 1850. So basically the last 14
months of His life He composed little.
That leaves us with nearly 2 years between the time of His statement in
the Persian Bayan to May 1849. He must have composed many, many items
during this period, so in my view 500,000 is a gross underestimate.
Besides look at the volume of His Writings contained in INBA series.
Its huge. I don't know how many verses, but its huge.
Now, does it add up to 7 or 8 hundred thousands verses (or at least
500,000 as testified in the Persian Bayan)? No way! Probably half of
it. Maybe even less. Ergo, a large chunk (half?) is missing. But the
rumor has it that there is hope .... ;-}
Do others (John, Juan, Lambden...) have a thought on these? I for one
am very interested to learn what you have to share.
regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 14:26:49
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: 90s pub stats
Fascinating statistics. But they need to be normalized to
English-language membership to be useful. The Baha'is probably have
about 250,000 English language speakers worldwide; the Mormons, five
million (4.5 million of the some 8 million Mormons woldwide live in
the U.S.); the Adventists, a million or so (there are 750,000 Seventh
Day Adventists in the US alone). Spiritualism is a vaguely defined
movement and I don't know what the estimates for membership are, but
it is also a subject of a lot of popular and scholarly literature.
The Christian Scientists probably have about twice the
English-speaking membership of the Faith worldwide, so their numbers
are comparable.
It is not clear to me that one can conclude much about the impact of
prepublication review from the statistics below. Considering how
obscure we are in academia, the number of publications listed below
seems pretty good to me.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: 90s pub stats
Author: "K. Paul Johnson" at INTERNET
Date: 12/15/95 4:00 PM
One last time-- it occurred to me that it would be more
instructive in terms of measuring the effect of current policy
to look at current publishing rates. So I got just the 1990s
publications, all formats, all languages, for the six groups in
question. Theosophy falls to last place, showing our lack of
membership growth in the last few decades, but Baha'i still lags
way behind all the others: Mormon 1886, Adventist 1107, Spiritualist
673, Christian Science 359, Baha'i 255, Theosophy 191. On a
per capita basis, I think the Theosophists are still the
bibliophiles par excellence.
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 14:53:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Paul Easton
To: Talisman
Subject: Re-Intro and Ignorant Questions...
Allah'u'abha!
After having been unsubscribed from Talisman for some time I have decided
to jump in again. However I chose to do so at an inopportune time - as
I have 6 finals next week, so I don't expect to be very active in the
discussions for a week or so.
My name is Paul Chistopher Easton and I am an undergraduate ( soon to be
2nd Semester Senior ) at the the University of Wisconsin - Stevens
Point. My major is International Studies, with an Asian emphasis and a
Religious Studies minor.
I became a Baha'i two years ago in Taiwan where I was teaching English as
a respite from school. I speak "survival Chinese" ( excuse me, waiter!
my snails are still moving... ) and - if all goes well - I'll be studying
Chinese full-time next fall at the Mandarin Training Center, National
Taiwan Normal University on a scholarship - would it be innappropriate to
ask for a few prayers for acceptance to be directed my way?
My interest in Baha'i Scholarship began when I returned to the United
States. My great-great grandfather, Peter Z. Easton, was a missionary in
Tabriz. Thinking that perhaps he would have known something about the
Babi and Baha'i Faiths I began searching for his writings. Under one
search (this still being before I had actually read any of Peter Z's
writings) the name Mirza Abu'l-Fadl appeared. That sounded promising, so
I posted to BAHAI-DICUSS asking if anyone had heard of this person, esp.
in connection with Peter Z. Easton. Well I'm still tasting the
aftertaste of my foot, but I do appreciate the help and kindness offered
by those who did respond.
Since then Mirza Abu'l-Fadl has become one of my heros, not only as a
Baha'i scholar, but also a man who had overcome both his earlier hubris
and quite an addiction to nicotine. Both of which I have had to deal
with my self.
An on-going project is still trying to dig up more info on Peter Z.
Easton and to find out what happened to his library in Tabriz after he
died.
Also, I am interested in studying the Baha'i Faith in China, and in East
Asia in general.
Interests also include: canoeing, backpacking, HTML, Richard Braughtigan,
Eastern Religious Philosophy, relationships, people and thinking about
those things that I will never be able to understand - in hopes that I
may grasp a few of the little problems in life.
Pet peeves include: scholars who tackle each other instead of issues and
people who complain about the weather more than once a day.
This is longer than I had intended it to be, I need to study for my
finals and the computer lab I'm at is closing. So I will have to save my
ignorant questions for later. Glad to be back! Looking forward to
fruitful discussions.
Yours,
_____________________________________________________________________________
Paul C. Easton
_____________________________________________________________________________
HOME || WORK
________________________________________||___________________________________
2321 Jersey Street || UW-Stevens Point
Stevens Point, WI 54481 || International Programs
|| Stevens Point, WI 54481-3897
PHONE: (715) 344-4174 || PHONE: (715) 346-2717
E-MAIL: peaston@worf.uwsp.edu || FAX: (715) 346-3591
________________________________________||___________________________________
O Lord! make us firm in Thy love and cause us to be loving toward the
whole of mankind. Confirm us in service to the world of humanity, so
that we may become the servants of Thy servants, that we may love all Thy
creatures and become compassionate to all Thy people. -`Abdu'l-Baha'
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 15:00:14
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain...
I quite agree with Ken; we can only understand humanity as "separate"
in some sort of metaphorical way. If we assume that humanity as a
species has always been biologically separate from all other life on
earth, then we must dismiss anatomical and biochemical similarities as
coincidence. And when one considers that our genetic material is 98%
similar to chimpanzees this would be an extraordinary argument indeed.
It would be about as scientifically meaningful as the argument that
Genesis and evolution can be reconciled by realizing the devil created
the fossils. When one takes such an approach, the harmony of science
and religion collapses.
But I think there are also philosophical problems with `Abdu'l-Baha's
argument even when it is taken as a metaphorical statement. The best
way of reconciling `Abdu'l-Baha and evolution is to argue that the
first life form on earth was the ancestor of all life on earth, and
therefore was the ancestor of humanity as well, and thus was
"potentially human." As life evolved and species split off the trunk
of the tree that led to modern homo sapiens sapiens, they ceased to
have the potential to be human and thus were ordinary life forms.
Presumably this means that at the level of individual life forms that
one individual had the potential to be human because it produced
descendants that eventually were us, whereas the individual's brother
produced descendants that became something else. Thus within one
"family" some members were potentially human and others were not, and
thus some had souls and others did not. Yet the individuals might not
have had any significant genetic differences between them; it might be
that X was potentially human because of something a great great great
granddaughter did accidentally that led to that line's survival and
mutation into something slightly different, whereas Y had one
descendant who accidentally fell off a cliff before reproducing, and
thus Y is not potentially human.
Obviously, scientists would be very uncomfortable with the theoretical
and untestable notion that individual amoeba X had a soul and her
brother amoeba Y did not. So we must remember that this idea exists
and makes sense only in the realms of theology, not in the realm of
science. We can hardly fault Darwin for that.
Another interesting implication of `Abdu'l-Baha's theory is that it
turns the usual popular conception of evolution on its head: evolution
was not the ascent of man, but the descent of everything else from
man. Strange.
But perhaps all of this is to philosophize too much. It is better to
remember (1) `Abdu'l-Baha was making theological statements, not
scientific ones, and possibly not even philosophical ones; and (2)
this should be viewed in the realm of metaphor, and metaphors can
never be pushed too far.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Darwin on the Brain...
Author: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu at INTERNET
Date: 12/16/95 1:33 PM
>
> Robert Johnston wrote
> >>Clearly Darwin's view must be reconciled with 'Abdu'l-Baha's. And I refer
> particularly to Darwin's failure to see that -- to paraphrase 'Abdu'l-Baha--
> "man was always man."
Sandy Fotos wrote:
>
> Some Baha'i friends in the natural sciences (and me too, since I have a
> background in maine botany )have felt that this statement refers to
> potentiality rather than to morphology.
>
> The particular line which would eventually evolve into humans was always
> distinct and identifiable in terms of its future direction, although not in
> terms of its physical appearance vis a vis other organisms.
>
> Again, may I argue for the longitudinal perspective?
I guess I see this point coming up again and again among Baha'is, that is:
physically humans resemble animals but their line was distinct all along...
I just want to say that in terms of the natural sciences, I can see no way
whatsoever of making this a meaningful statement. In other words you can make
the claim that a billion years ago Amoeba A mutated and gave rise to one
lineage of organisms and Amoeba B mutated and gave rise to another lineage of
organisms including humans, however there would be no empirical way of
demonstrating that Amoeba A and Amoeba B were distinct in some significant way
(at least biologically/physically) such that humans had to evolve from
Amoeba B rather than Amoeba A. As far was I can see the only way to make the
distinction of humans from other creatures, all along, plausible in any way
is to argue the point metaphysically/metaphorically. This,
argument,however, rests primarily on Faith rather than empirical verifiability
and will tend to carry little weight with individuals outside of the Faith.
A variation on the separateness of humans theme is to point out how distinct
humans are in terms of their non-physical qualities; that is, physically
humans resemble animals, but "spiritually" they are distinct and have been all
along. The "hard" response from your average biologist will be that what
distinguishes humans is their sophisticated brain, which incidentally, evolved
physically along with the rest of the body. This is a very tough problem to
think about and we need good thinking on this issue to become more convincing
to the rest of the world.
I don't mean to sound cynical or negative, but I've tended to observe a
tendency within the Baha'i community to gloss over these sorts of issues, which
are actually of fundamental importance in properly "squaring" reason with
faith.. How can we make a convincing case that
humans are not extremely sophisticated animals, what arguments can we make
that it's not just a better brain that distinguishes us; why argue that we
have a soul or talk about "spirituality" if it might all amount to having better
biochips in head!! We can do it, but we need to try!! Philosophers of
science grab your pens!!!
OK, I'll get off my soap-box now...
Warmest Regards to All!
Ken
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:11:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: Paul Easton
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Re: Re-Intro and Ignorant Questions...
On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, Paul Easton wrote:
> My interest in Baha'i Scholarship began when I returned to the United
> States. My great-great grandfather, Peter Z. Easton, was a missionary in
> Tabriz.
This is fascinating. Are you a first-generation Baha'i? I always
suspected that someone in the Easton family was friendly to the Faith,
because on two different occassions I have come accross postcards from
Peter Z. Easton (from Tabriz) dating from the late nineteenth century, in
the papers of Baha'is: once in the Los Angeles Baha'i Archives and once in the
papers Charles Mason Remey at Yale. In neither instance was there in
indication
as to how the cards got there, but I suspected that someone in his family
might have given them to Baha'i friends because they depicted sites in Iran.
> An on-going project is still trying to dig up more info on Peter Z.
> Easton and to find out what happened to his library in Tabriz after he
> died.
I belive there is correspondence from and biographical material about
Peter Z. Easton in the holdings of the Presbyterian Historical Society, in
Philadelphia.
Cheers,
Richard
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 18:02:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Baha'i Encyclopedia / Zuhurul Haq
Dear Ahang and All,
Hopefully we can learn from past mistakes. One note though:
Ali Akbar Furutan has a special place in the hearts of
Baha'is - especially Iranian Baha'is (he is probably thought
of the same as William Sears is thought of in the West). Most likely
due to his incredible memory - I was in Haifa in May and the fortune
of meeting him - he is in his late 80's or early 90's. When I introduced
myself and told him where my father was from, he immediately remembered
something about that area and my father's greater family. Ofcourse
that does not say anything about his actions in the Fadil Mazandarani
episode.
It seems from what you said Mazandarani decided not to press
the issue with the Guardian. It also seems that he did not stop
his scholarship - just did not let many people know about it.
Hopefull, someday soon we can benefit from his works -
which btw sound incredibly massive.
As you probably guessed by now I have another of my
suggestions - being hopelessly optimistic I'll keep
suggesting until somebody says stop :-) And even then,
my conscience will say to keep at it ;-)
May be we can vote on the following: to formally ask
the staff of the World Centre's Research Department to
come online to Talisman - and not just as lurkers. The
give and take, I feel, can be beneficial - Robert Stockman
who is the director of the US Research Office is online;
a fact that I think the other scholars present here
(and the rest of us) greatly appreciate.
And one observation: can we not assume that since
Talisman is here and has the tacit approval of the
House that there has been a passive change in policy
with regards to scholarship: we have seen provisional
translations, Baha'i Encyclopedia articles, the
"Service of Women" paper, threads on just about every
conroversial subject within the Faith - all without
review.
In spite of the occasional food fights (and I have thrown my
share of tomatoes) this is a watershed event - I hope we can
make the best of it.
take care,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 13:44:31 +1200
To: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain...
Dear Ken,
You wrote:
"This,
argument,however, rests primarily on Faith rather than empirical verifiability
and will tend to carry little weight with individuals outside of the
Faith."
Response: One can't bend reality so that it suits the candy-floss fantasies
of a bewildered humanity.
The '"hard" response from your average biologist' is a pretty cynical
position. Why accord it any real value?
If we accept humanity in a foetus then, logically, why should be not accord
humanity to our ancestor who looked like a possum?
I yawn, actually. How many times does it need to be stated that the Baha'i
conception of science is not limited to empiricism...before it really sinks
in.
Robert (a barking ant with a long nose in a black mood) Johnston.
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 13:52:17 +1200
To: "Stockman, Robert" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain...
Robert Stockman wrote:
It is better to
> remember (1) `Abdu'l-Baha was making theological statements, not
> scientific ones, and possibly not even philosophical ones;
This appears to marginalise the station of 'Abdu'l-Baha to the outskirts of
science. Even the fool Heidegger knew that modern science was a mere
branch of metaphysics. Robert, if you can prove 'Abdu'l-Baha wrong, then
I'll listen. If you can't then I humbly suggest you give Him the benefit
of the doubt...[at least]
Robert (barking mad on a long black Sunday afternoon) Johnston
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 14:02:47 +1200
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: intelligent readers
Linda,
Your wrote:
>Robert, the answer to your question as to whether we have any intelligent
>readers of history (incl. evolution) is: YES! Linda
Oh? Please name someone here who has understood the Baha'i teachings on
evolution, has reconciled them with Darwinism, and has provided ( or is
able to provide) scholarly evidence of his/her insights? Really, this is
just the same old Socrates story in a different outfit. Why don't we go
back and fight that one out again? I'd really love to hear the comments of
John and Juan re. the House letter.
Robert (a long black springing dog-ant) Johnston
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 21:08:54 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Baha'u'llah's notes to Od...
Juan : Goodness this just keeps getting better . You already know I
am partial to this "poem ". Are there more notes to this as well ?
For what its worth it seems to me there is a liturgical feast herein
as well as among additional of Baha u llah's works along the same lines .
All it takes is a little imagination and permission for the friends to
explore this revelatory material . One of the things that is always painfully
aware to me when speaking with members of other religious traditions is the
paucity of criticl work that would constitute a body of spirituality. It is
material like this which aids considerably in building that "praxis " . I
for one appreciate a great deal the time and effort tha goes into all this .
The fruits , if the friends will make use of it , will be enormous . It will
also go a long way to demonstrating to and for others that there is a very
real sense of spirituality in the Faith of Bahau llah. This one I am going
to be sharing with the Jewish folks I made reference to earlier in Inter
-faith dialogue .
There is a Syrian Orthodox priest whom I have known for several years
now - he is well aware of the Faith - who I have discussed some of this with
. He is a deeply virtuous man
and one of his remaeks a few years back to me was that of the material on
the Faith he had seen was much like the kind of things that children are
taught in Sunday schools . He wondered where the "heart" of the Faith was
its spiritual praxis . Lasat spring I shared with him your original "Ode"
translation and this summer Stephens work on the Halih . He is beginning to
think there may be something substantive about this Bahu llah thing after all
other than that I may happen to be an intersting guy . He is not likely to
become a Bahai and thst is not my goal, frankly, but he does have a more
favorable view of "Bahai" than before . Again it just opens up doors for
"consorting with the followers of all religions in friendliness and
fellowship ." He and I have on occasion , amidst the light and incense of
the church recited together the "Jesus Prayer " . Whew - now that is a
powereful one . I have already informed him that a little spiritual quid pro
quo requires the same with regard to some things from the "Ode" and "Halih"
and the song of the Heavenly Dove ( Her song as Baha says after all ) " Thou
art God . There is no God but Thee. He has let me practice to my hearts
content the "Alastu bi rabbikun" over the years .
To make a long story short I hope you and others will continue to make
available this kind of Bahau llahs work . I hope some critical work will be
done as well . I have so little to give my orthodox friend that addresses
context and commentary; the kind of work that makes Revelation come alive and
like a great story you just cant wait to tell others . It is in the
spiritual praxis that grows out of worship that lies transformation - and our
ability to truly attract the hearts of the world .
FOR JOHN : A reminder the *Deathless Youth* :)
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 21:29:22 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: standing by my words
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Robert, I do think that Ken and Rob's excellent responses on the subject
of evolution are quite adequate to prove my point that there are highly
intelligent and knowledgeable people here on Talisman who can explain the
concept quite adequately. I refuse to return to the bad old days when science
had to conform to theology. And, I trust you read the posting from Juan of
Abdu'l Baha's talk in New York. This says it all. We should not follow
blindly.
I feel quite confident that, if the information we have now on evolution were
available to Abdu'l Baha, that he would have explained things differently. He
was not a scientist. He was a true religious leader - a moral guide for us to
follow. It belittles his station (in my eyes) to make him into some cult
figure who somehow had all knowledge of all aspects of life. This was not his
claim, Robert. We should read his words to feed our hearts, not to nit pick
about scientific issues. Let's leave that to the scientists, please!!
I found Ahang's posting about the story of Fadil to be both fascinating and
heart wrenching. I suppose I can relate so strongly to it because of the
Encyclopoedia project. Three cheers for the battle against Fundamentalism!
And, Derek. Long may your power outage continue.
Dear friends, just as I was posting this note to Derek, the telphone rang. It
was my dear nemisis, Derek. He and Burl now have a campaign of telephone
torment. I will never be left in peace. I dread tuning into Talisman on
Monday for the Derek and Burl scandal hour. They admit to conspiring against
me. Is this the example that Abdu'l Baha gave us? Should we not be asking
ourselves, would Abdu'l Baha approve of Derek and Burl's treatment of me? (We
are supposed to ask ourselves questions like that, aren't we?) By the way,
Burl has unsubscribed from Talisman for the week. However, I do believe that
he will be sorry. I suggest that everyone forward their messages to Burl this
week to make sure he has plenty of reading material when he returns. Thank you
in advance for your cooperation in this matter. Linda
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 22:11:36 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Evolution
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I remember smugly telling seekers at firesides that because Baha'is
believed in the harmony of science and religion, we would not be in
the foolish position of having to deny the discoveries of modern
biology. I have a private theory that before God absolves me and
leaves me in peace as a Baha'i, all the things that I did while I was
young and fanatical will be visited on my head.
The following is a paragraph I wrote for the article on evolution in
the Baha'i Encyclopedia:
*******
AB's statements on evolution reflect the unease of many thoughtful
religious people of the time at the use and misuse of Darwinist concepts.
Evolution was being used as a justification for the abandonment of
traditional religious and spiritual ideas, of standards of decency and
kindness, and of the social solidarity that made the rich and powerful
responsible for the well-being of the poorer and weaker memebers of
society. The formulation given in this talk is clearly AB's attempt to
offer a way out of this dilemma, using the philosophical and theological
concepts of the sophisticated Iranian philosophical tradition, which since
the work of the great philosopher Mulla Sadra in the 17th century, had
seen the transformation of substance as a key to understanding the
deepest nature of being and the godhead. Thus, AB's statements on
evolution should be read not literally as corrections to a particular
scientific theory but as affirmations that scientific truth must be
understood in the context of a spiritual view of the universe.
*********
As to the larger question of Abdu'l-Baha's omniscience on scientific and
scholarly matters, I offer the following anecdote. Those who have
heard it before, such as my dear wife, may go on to the next posting:
When I was in Haifa on pilgrimage some years ago, as custom dictates
I went to pray at the deathbed of Abdu'l-Baha. Now, since this was
day eight, not counting the earlier visits to Jerusalem, Bethleham, and
Nazareth, I was rather shrined out. I knelt by the bed, assumed the
expression of pious blankness learned in childhood, and tried to read
the titles of the books on the bedside table that, I fancied, were being
read to Abdu'l-Baha during his last illness. One was a volume of
the *Da'irat al-Ma'arif*, the first great modern Arabic encyclopedia.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 19:49:59 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: standing by my words
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
X-To: PO%"talisman"
Subject: standing by my words
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
Precedence: bulk
!
And, Derek. Long may your power outage continue.
''My Dear Linda
Your worst nightmare happened not only has the power been restored but
my computor has been given the kiss of life , back again to bring the
truth to the nations .''
Dear friends, just as I was posting this note to Derek, the telphone
rang. It
was my dear nemisis, Derek. He and Burl now have a campaign of
telephone
torment. I will never be left in peace. I dread tuning into Talisman
on
Monday for the Derek and Burl scandal hour. They admit to conspiring
against
me.
''Burl and I has good supportive friends naturally speak to each other.
Linda has locked John up in a cupboard under the stairs because he
tried to tell the truth over DC , is this the example of correct
behaviour ?''
Is this the example that Abdu'l Baha gave us? Should we not be asking
ourselves, would Abdu'l Baha approve of Derek and Burl's treatment of
me? (We
are supposed to ask ourselves questions like that, aren't we?) By the
way,
Burl has unsubscribed from Talisman for the week. However, I do
believe that
he will be sorry. I suggest that everyone forward their messages to
Burl this
week to make sure he has plenty of reading material when he returns.
Thank you
in advance for your cooperation in this matter. Linda
Would all those who feel Linda is being unfair to John please E'Mail
her and those who believe she is acting correctly please E"Mail her .
We would like a report , young lady , on this matter .
A Tit-bit from Monday's posting Linda caused a major problem by
carrying a large banner that read ' Shi'ite's Rule Forever 'at the
lecture on the 4 rightful Caliphs and throwing two custard pies at the
presenter . Her falling over on the bus was a result of grapping hold
of both ears of Nima's idol Sorush and hollering this is what Lyndon
Johnson did to the amazed bus riders. The poor chap now has sore
enlarged ears and hasn't a clue who Lyndon Johnson was . These and more
are some of the trials of John Walbridge at Mensa without the n in DC .
John may shortly be receiving a very high honor because of his trials
and tribulations with Linda , watch for Monday .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 21:53:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fadil
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Just got back from taking my boys to see Giumonji; absolutely a
must-see movie, filled with great action... though our 7 year old
will probably sleep in our bed tonight. Robin Williams is great.
This must be a brief note as I'm very tired. But judging by the
number of private emails, it clear that the memory of Fadil has
touched many hearts. I will deal with some of the specifics
privately. However do want to comment on a couple of things.
1. A dear friend objected to my comparison of Zuhuru'l-Haqq and
Encyclopedia project and specifically my use of the expression "a
lot of similarities" between the two. I really feel this friend is
right and there are not "a lot" of similarities between the two
events. After all:
one took place in Iran, the other in the States;
one was in 30's and 40's, the other in 80's and 90's;
one involved a single man, the other a whole Board;
one involved materials in Persian, the other is solely in English;
one required intervention of the Guardian, the other the House;
etc., etc., ...
Yes, I agree that there are not "a lot" of similarities, ... just
the tiny one that neither work has seen the light of day. Oh well,
I stand corrected.
2. Another wanted to know who the "bad guys" were in ZH's episode.
The answer to that question is very simple: there were none. On
one side of the debate was Fadil with his impeccable record, and on
the other side were folks like Ishraq-Khavari (a profoundly
magnificent man whom I love just as much as I love Fadil) plus the
NSA of Iran (4 of whom were elevated to the rank of the Hands and
again I deeply love and admire each of them and grew up with their
names on our lips and in our heart). So, when I say there were no
"bad guys", I mean exactly that! There was not a single person, in
my view, who acted out of self interest or maliciously.
The issues became complex. Remember that this debate spanned over
two decades, perhaps more, to unfold and there are many
correspondences from the beloved Guardian which I have not seen on
this subject, so its not just confined to the mickymouse letter that
the NSA published in 1951.
I just wanted to share my strong belief that this episode involved
men, each with historic contributions to the Cause, acting in the
very best interest of the community. As such, we must be very
careful not to oversimply the issues.
In this regard, there *is* a great deal of similarity between the ZH
episode and Encyclopedia project.
3. My comments about fundamentalism in the community is solely in
regard to the attitude of certain believes regarding the literal
exactness of the Dawnbreakers. Those who feel that the Dawnbreakers
is the "standard" in the sense that it contains no error, well here
is a news flash: You are wrong.
With that, I'm off to bed.
love, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 18:02:55 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality
Cc: lua@sover.net
Dear Luanne,
I have not yet seen another reply to your posting ( which I have
quoted below in full in case any others may have discarded it or misplaced
it) which I think and feel is one of the more profound and insightful
postings shared on Talisman since I have been a subscriber. Thank you for
sharing the "in-sights" from your journey of healing.
I urge others to read it and reread it for clues as to the "depth" dynamic
of what it is we are trying to "access" or get ahold of in terms of our
inherent human/spiritual nature. Unless one has started to access the
unconscious aspect of one's self by way of healing - using all the potency
of one's own determination alongside the powerful prayers given to us for
purposes of healing - it is difficult to understand the place you are
speaking from.
If one does not urge him/herself on in this task, however, crisis will
force the issue.
Of course, the crisis is already upon us. Will fears keep us up in our
heads and away from the underlying pain? - the energy we need to make it
through is being tied up in the futile attempts our bodies use to fend off
the pain. It is in embracing the pain, however, that we find the way to
release the energy used to defend ourselves -as you have intimated -
against loss of control. As with all things paradoxical in this mysterious
universe, by giving in we don't lose, we transform!
Without change through self-transformation, individuals tend to judge
the Faith, its Institutions, and other people, for example, with only the
tools of an unawakened lower human nature. The knowledge we of necessity
must seek, in order to grow, is pointed to in your posting. I hope many
Talisman readers will look at it again and ponder what you are telling us.
Luanne, are you a subscriber to the Baha'i-Intuition mailing list? If
not, may I have your permission to post your message on that list? There
may be a number of Baha'is interested in this area who subscribe to that
list but not to Talisman. Looking forward to hearing from you. I still
owe you a private response on the Marion Woodman book, which I haven't
gotten to yet.
Baha'i love, your brother, Henry
Luanne, in her posting entitled: Homosexuality, dated 12/14/95 wrote:
>The question I raise with regard to my own struggles to obey Baha'i law is:
>do I believe that Baha'u'llah has a prospective which I do not possess, and
>which is enjoined upon me for the benefit of my soul, or do I make wrong His
>perspective in favor of my own inclinations or for my own comfort. I have
>several friends who are homosexual or bisexual, and my impression of their
>inclinations is that this lifestyle is largely chosen (unconcsciously, for
>the most part) to avoid issues that are highly charged and emotionally very
>uncomfortable. It is easier for them to live this way in order not to have
>triggered much unfinished conflict, usually within their family of origin,
>and in order to support certain viewpoints gathered from such experience,
>such as "Men only want one thing," "So this is how men and women treat
>eachother after the courtship is over," "All women do is try to control
>you," etc. etc. etc. I am not meaning to oversimplify this issue, but in
>my own journey of healing I have encountered again and again distortions in
>my own thinking that subtlely controlled my behavior in ways that I didn't
>for most of my life understand and struggled like a fiend to try to make
>sense of or justify. These attitudes frequently don't even belong to us,
>but are broadcast in the very gestures of our parents and those around us
>when we are young. Until we uncover them and see their power over us, we go
>on making choices (usually unhealthy) that are based upon the operation of
>these distortions. Burl's posting addressed this very clearly. I am not
>saying that this is universally the case, but our family issues are at the
>root of most of our pathologies. It seems that these inclinations can occur
>very early in life, apparently as some natural state. Are not most of our
>idiosyncracies some sort of defense mechanism or coping skill formed in
>response to unpleasant or even unbearable situations? Supposing them to be
>our inherent qualities makes little more sense to me than supposing that we
>live many lifetimes in order to explain these character and personality traits.
>
>As far as genetics are concerned, I am no authority on this any topic,
>except my own search. So from the perspective that God tests his servants,
>perhaps even this genetic fluke, this accident of chromosomal arrangement is
>every bit His Will as the tests that all of us endure. I have my own set
>that I have spent years sorting through and continue to struggle with, and
>by and large, although the pain involved in facing my own history has been
>and is from time to time excruciating, I can see these events as a mercy in
>the long run - they have challenged me, have required that I surrender my
>will again and again and again in order to survive the onslaught of this
>world. We all suffer, we are all brought to our knees in one way or
>another, because most of us if given the choice would never choose this path.
>
>Someone mentioned chakras. This is one of those phenomena (like gravity),
>the source of which is unseen. I believe that they are qute literal, and
>consistent in their properties. The second chakra, the sex chakra is the
>center of sensuality and creativity. If there are distortions around issues
>such as whether or not we were touched as children, whether that touch was
>safe and appropriate, whether our creativity was encouraged, whether we were
>allowed some expression of that creativity, or had our need for touch and
>closeness validated, whether we experienced physical pleasure, or whether
>all of these healthy aspects of ourselves were suppressed/denied/kicked out
>of us, then disortions will arise in our interactions with others, in our
>abilty to relate in healthy ways to others. Sexual abuse and domestic
>violence does much to destroy our ability to relate to our own creative
>urges and yearnings, let alone our sensuality. The example of (was it you,
>David?) the woman who mistook her spritual yearning for sexual attraction is
>only one configuration of how this can play itself out in our interactions
>with other human beings.
>
>John Upledger, DO, founder of the Upledger Institute has done years of
>medical research (Michigan State University) on the nature of fascial
>restrictions and restrictions within the craniosacral membrane itself. He
>has discovered that the nature of all these restrictions is energetic, the
>sources of which can be physical, emotional, or spiritual in nature, yet
>they all manifest physically: at times as simple tissue restrictions, but
>they can ultimately lead to diseases in the organs and tissues (utilizing
>the meridian system) if the restriction remains over a period of time. In
>other words, the roots of many diseases are energetic (vibrational) in
>nature. Imagine that. Uncovering the traumatic source of the restriction
>can be accessed directly throught the tissue (it has memory and is
>consciously accessible). He has documented case after case of physical and
>psychological symptoms (as well as many learning disabilties) that have
>responded positively to Craniosacral Therapy and Somato Emotional Release
>techniques. He is no New Age cook or weirdo, but an osteopathic physician
>who is pioneering methods of treating "hopeless" or "inexplicable
>(psychosomatic)" conditions. The medical community is just beginning to
>give ear. Perhaps we need more time to uncover the various causes of
>homosexuality and need not rush to conclude that all the "scientific"
>evidence is in.
>
>I, too, have known several people who decided that they were homosexual,
>only to change their minds years later. With the current state of
>male/female relationships in this culture it is tempting to bag it and adopt
>an alternative lifestyle, gathering evidence along the way for why you are
>doing what you are doing. Again, I mean no offense, nor do I mean to making
>sweeping generalizations, or to take lightly the suffering that accompanies
>the decision or conclusion that one is gay. But it seems that the standard
>of modern Western culture is being upheld as the Truth in many postings and
>I have to question this. I have no idea what it is like to be a homosexual,
>I have not suffered the prejudices and inequities that homosexuals have
>suffered. Can we trust the Western Medical model any more than the mores of
>our society, that model being the product of this society? I long for
>something more.
>
>Loving Regards,
>LuAnne
Henry W. Miller
Martinez, California,U.S.A.
hwmiller@ccnet.com
hwmiller@eworld.com
510-372-0709
=END=
From: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain...
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 23:31:40 -0600 (CST)
Dear Robert you wrote:
>
> "This,
> argument,however, rests primarily on Faith rather than empirical verifiability
> and will tend to carry little weight with individuals outside of the
> Faith."
>
> Response: One can't bend reality so that it suits the candy-floss fantasies
> of a bewildered humanity.
Well I suppose the answer from our cynical biologist would be "One can't bend
reality so that it suits the candy-floss explanations of your theology". The
crux of the issue, I think, is to distinguish between those questions whose
answers can be determined experimentally (e.g. the physical relation of
species to one another) in principle and those issues, who by their very
nature, are not accessible to experimental proof (e.g. the existence of
God).
>
> The '"hard" response from your average biologist' is a pretty cynical
> position. Why accord it any real value?
>
> If we accept humanity in a foetus then, logically, why should be not accord
> humanity to our ancestor who looked like a possum?
Very Simple. The (physical) potential of a human foetus to become a
(morphologically) recognizable human being can be verified quite easily by
experimental means (e.g. genetic testing). The physical potential for a
possum to "become" human is demonstrably nil.
>
> I yawn, actually. How many times does it need to be stated that the Baha'i
> conception of science is not limited to empiricism...before it really sinks
> in.
It is not clear to me that empiricism (in the tradition of Hume) and empirical
validation (i.e. validation by repeated experience of multiple individuals)
are the same...I believe the latter is fully consistent with the
principles of the Faith.
Respectfully,
Ken
=END=
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 23:48:07 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Steve Jordan
Subject: Hello, Talisman
Hello All:
I have been lurking here on Talisman for the past few weeks, and realized
that I need to introduce myself.
I am 41, married, with a 10 year old daughter and a five year old son. I
live in a suburb of Houston (Friendswood) where I work for a large
aerospace company providing support for NASA. How I got in the aerospace
business after spending 10 years as a professional musician is still a
mystery to many (including myself), but here I am nonetheless.
On the spiritual front, I was a Baha'i for about five years, but upon
moving to the Houston area, pretty much fell away from the faith. I
currently attend a Unitarian Universalist church (I think one of my posts
from SRB found its way to Talisman a while back, so forgive me if you've
already heard this). I ended up here after pulling together a lesson on the
Baha'i faith for the Jr.Hi UU class I help teach. I am now in a quandary
since in researching this lesson, I came to the conclusion that I am more
in tune with the Baha'is than with UUism. Thus I am taking a good look at
my own spiritual path/belief system and reinvestigating the Baha'i Faith.
For Anton: Hi. Good to see you made it here.
For Mark Foster: I see that you teach at JCCC. This is where I really
discovered the Baha'i Faith. Upon quitting the music business in 1983, I
returned to school - first stop JCCC (a wonderful school, BTW). My uncle,
Dan Jordan, had been murdered about two years prior. I had heard that he
was Co-Chairman of the NSA (though I had no idea what that was), and the
only newspaper account I had of his murder said that an Iranian group had
claimed credit for the deed (to my knowledge, it has never been solved).
So, there I was wandering around the JCCC library one day, when I happened
upon the religion section. I saw the book "Baha'i World Faith" and decided
to see what Dan Jordan may have died for. I opened the book to the twelve
principles and my search began. I took that book home and read it, the
whole time thinking that this is what I had always believed, but had never
seen it laid out like this before.
Eventually I found a class being offered through the Communiversity (a sort
of Free University in Kansas City) called "One Planet, One People, Please."
I thought the title sounded Baha'ish, and sure enough it was a class at the
KC Baha'i Center. Mary Rowe taught the course and did a wonderful job of
introducing me to the history and tenets of the Baha'i Faith. BTW, if she
is still around, please tell her hello for me. I declared about a year or
so later, and remained fairly active until relocating to Houston in 1988.
There you have it. Probably more than you wanted to know, but far be it
from me to go against Talisman customs and Maori etiquette. I look forward
to hearing from you all.
Regards,
Steve
jordan@iapc.net
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Evolution
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 23:47:05 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
I have read with interest recent posts which attempt to reconcile
remarks made by the Master to L.C. Barney with classical evolutionary
theory (Darwin and Spencer). I doubt that the issues involved will be
resolved all at once. The harmony of science and religion, as envisioned
in the Baha'i teachings, has not yet been realized. Once this unity of
thought has been achieved, humanity will begin to see reality from an
entirely different standpoint. Moreover, I do not think that we have
any way of knowing with certainty what new insights and methodologies
this remarkable development will produce. IMV, it is far too premature
at this point to make any definitive statements.
Although I appreciate the views of those who argue that there is a
biological link between hominid and animal evolution (whether man from
the animals or the animals from man), I have difficulty making this
connection from a Baha'i standpoint. The animal is emanated by the
animal spirit (the purposeful power of sensation), the vegetable spirit
(the purposeful power of growth), and the mineral spirit (the purposeful
power of cohesion). It lacks the human spirit and, consequently, does
not have the ability, potentially or otherwise, to engage in rational
thought. The animal is also absent the spirit of faith and, as a result,
cannot receive the divine blessings which come to a being who has
consciously recognized the inner evidences of divine Revelation.
To my understanding, the human spirit and the spirit of faith are
the twin purposeful powers of the soul. These powers, and their various
manifestations, are what distinguishes humanity from the animal kingdom.
Although man is outwardly like the higher mammals, he is, from a
spiritual POV, able to function on an altogether different plane of
existence - the spiritual Kingdom revealed.
As I see it, the similarity between man and the apes is a sign of
the divine ordering of creation. It teaches us about the purposefulness
of evolution - a dimension of science which is unattainable using the
normal tools of empirical research. It is, IMHO, one of the hidden, or
esoteric, implications of the evolutionary process.
And could the similarity between man and the apes also be a symbol
vehicle for our human potentialities? IOW, despite the many genetic
similarities between ourselves and other primates, it is only man who
can develop civilization. Seeing what is, in some ways, man minus his
spiritual substance in these creatures can both remind us of the need to
develop our minds and hearts and teach of about the instinctual,
conditioned beings we would be if we did not possess the capacity for
human socialization.
Bright blessings,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (and Structuralist) *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God in the diversity of His creation.
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 19:05:02 +1200
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: standing by my words
Dear Linda,
Call me a perverse dog eating ant with a long nose and a short
black springy bark if you like, but I stand by my words also. (Though, I
liked what John wrote : "Thus, AB's statements onevolution should be read
not literally as corrections to a particular scientific theory but as
affirmations that scientific truth must be understood in the context of a
spiritual view of the universe.") But,alas, my conscience is now
instructing me to be silent. I sincerely wish you, Ken and Rob (et al) the
greatest contentment with your views...
Robert.
PS Re:
And, I trust you read the posting from Juan of
>Abdu'l Baha's talk in New York.
No. But then I didn't read Juan's response to the Research Dept. letter
re. Socrates either. I'd like to read both sometime. I am also waiting for
Chris Buck to supply a full version of the House letter he has recently
used to re-assert his view that there were Manifestations of God in the
Americas.
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 19:10:59 +1200
To: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain...
Dear Ken,
>Very Simple. The (physical) potential of a human foetus to become a
>(morphologically) recognizable human being can be verified quite easily by
>experimental means (e.g. genetic testing). The physical potential for a
>possum to "become" human is demonstrably nil.
Oh: did you find THAT *possum* already, and test it?
Robert (about to play possum)
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Hello, Talisman
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 01:23:16 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Steve -
What a beautiful and spiritually moving story. Thank you. As you may
know, your uncle, Dan Jordan, was one of the closest people to one of
spiritual mentors, Marian Lippitt. His ANISA project (an alternative
educational model) was based largely on Marian's work in the science of
reality which she later incorporated into her Ph.D. dissertation. Dan
himself was much loved by the American Baha'i community. You certainly
have a proud heritage, Steve.
Thanks for the kind words about my employer . Johnson County
Community College is, supposedly, one of the five best community
colleges in the country, and it consistently turns up at the top of the
list on almost all comparative indices. That was part of the draw for me
from my previous teaching position in Georgia. But Johnson County,
Kansas, is one of the five wealthiest counties in the U.S., so it can
afford to put a lot of money into the college! It is nice to know that
someone came into the Faith through JCCC. Unfortunately, there are, to
the best of my knowledge, no Baha'i students currently at the college.
Communiversity is a wonderful continuing education force in the KC
area. Of course, most larger cites I am familiar with have similar
programs. The majority of the courses tend to be geared toward to
personal and career development, neo-paganism, and new-ageism. However,
once in a while, someone, like Mary (who is still very much involved in
Baha'i activities here), will offer a course in the Faith. A friend of
mine is now teaching a course in the Unification Church through
Communiversity.
Best wishes to you, Steve, in your continuing search!
Warm regards to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion/Structuralist *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God in the diversity of His creation.
=END=
Date: 16 Dec 95 23:38:28 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: My Favorite Book
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: SBirkland@aol.com, 103275.1472@compuserv.com, slynch@interserv.com,
jfmalaret@ucdavis.edu, Kkonline@aol.com
Subject: Time: 8:45 PM
OFFICE MEMO My Favorite Book Date: 12/16/95
Citizens of Planet Talisman,
I would like to recommend the following book, whose original is in Dutch (I can
find the name of the original if needed). The English translation is:
Pronk, P. (1993). _Against nature? Types of oral argumentation regarding
homosexuality_.Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans Publishing Co. Forward by Hendrick
Hart.
Pim Pronk's work is probably the finest example of scholarship related to the
moral issue that we Baha'is face re: sexual orientation. In this book, Pronk
skillfully asks,
"What could be done to activate the churches into more actively considering a
practice of visible love for homosexuals such that homosexuals themselves would
feel accepted?"
This is an essential question for Baha'is as well. Hart in the forward states,
"No major denomination that condemns homosexual practice shows that its
professed love for homosexuals is real by actively protesting the persecution
of homosexuals. The church here runs the risk of being fairly accused of
injustice by neglecting to advocate on behalf of its homosexual members. It is
widely agreed that cultural situations of this kind, where members of a society
are condemned because they are different, exist as a result of a widespread
prejudice and ignorance rooted in irrational anxiety. It is also widely agreed
that only education, information, and advocacy can change this situation. " p.
xiv
later Pronk states,
"Sexual justice calls us to acknowledge and respect the diversity of age,
gender, sexual orientation, color, body size and shape, families, and custom.
Such diversity enriches rather than diminishes our life together. Justice
requires us to promote such diversity. It questions elitist cultural
assumptions and stereotypes. In the church, the division is not between
homosexuals and heterosexuals, between men and women, or between white and
black, but between justice and injustice" (Pronk p. 99).
The book jacket states that Pim Pronk teaches dogmatics and philosophy at
Hogeschool Holland, an affiliate of Vrije Universitet, Amsterdam, Netherlands.
His doctorates are in in biology and theology.
regards, Daniel
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 00:32:15 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Subject: Re: Hello, Talisman
Dear Steve Jordan, you wrote, among other things:
>>Hello All:
Welcome. Interesting that you are(were) a musician like your uncle
(Rhodes scholar, music) Dan.
I declared as a Baha'i while living in Chicago in December, 1964, while
attending Chicago Theological Seminary. I spent my very first Fast with
your uncle Dan and his lovely wife, Nancy, and little (at that time)
Melissa when they lived at the Univ. of Chicago.
I remember those cold, wintry mornings - walking from around 57th
Street, across the Midway, with the moon lighting my way, to Dan and
Nancy's place. We shared breakfast and prayers.
I still have the copy of Prayers And Meditations by Baha'u'llah which
Dan and Nancy gave to me: "For Henry, on this great occasion - with a
thousand greetings! Love from Dan and Nancy. 7 Dec. 64"
It was also your Uncle Dan who drove Ethel and Lacy Crawford and me to
the old Baha'i Center in downtown Chicago the night we presented ourselves
to the Spiritual Assembly of Chicago.
Regards,
Henry
Henry W. Miller
Martinez, California,U.S.A.
hwmiller@ccnet.com
hwmiller@eworld.com
510-372-0709
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 01:13:56 -0800
To: Paul Easton , Talisman
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Re-Intro and Ignorant Questions...
Welcome Back Paul....
At 02:53 PM 12/16/95 -0600, Paul Easton wrote:
>Allah'u'abha!
>My name is Paul Chistopher Easton and I am an undergraduate ( soon to be
>2nd Semester Senior )
>- I'll be studying
>Chinese full-time next fall at the Mandarin Training Center, National
>Taiwan Normal University on a scholarship - would it be innappropriate to
>ask for a few prayers for acceptance to be directed my way?
Paul, you got it... Good luck.
>
>This is longer than I had intended it to be, I need to study for my
>finals and the computer lab I'm at is closing. So I will have to save my
>ignorant questions for later. Glad to be back! Looking forward to
>fruitful discussions.
The only ignorant question is one not asked!
>Yours,
> Paul C. Easton
Warmly, Margreet
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 01:34:01 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Subject: Re: Re: Evolution
Christopher, you wrote, in part, in answer to Cheshmak:
> *Ontogeny* relates to the development of the individual, while
>*Phyllogeny* pertains to the phyllum. (A new phyllum has just been
>discovered--a strange funnel-shaped parasite that lives on the lips of
>lobsters.) So, the evolutionary transformations of the phyllum are not
>unlike the transformations in the genesis and development of the
>individual. The metamorphoses of the fetus was, as you recall,
>`Abdu'l-Baha's favorite proof as to why man was still man even when he
>looked like a fish.
>
> Hope this gives you a couple of leads, Cheshmak.
>
> -- Christopher Buck
Christopher, I'm no scientist either, but this reference to "ontogeny
recapitulates phylogeny" brought to mind a book by Sandor Ferenzci,
entitled *Thalassa, A Theory of Genitality.* It was difficult to get ahold
of back when I was at the University of Rochester years ago.
Ferenzci was a student of Freud's at one time, I believe, and developed
this theme while discussing psychological issues, including, as I recall,
his ideas on the etiology of homosexuality. I also seem to recall that he
may have been somewhat discredited due to his illicit sexual relationships
with patients.
I cannot give a review of its contents, as it relates specifially to
theories of evolution, but it does unfold some fascinating discussion about
"ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny." Might this not also have some
connection to the Jungian theory of a "collective unconscious?"
That book was recommended to me by Norman O. Brown, author of Love's
Body, among other publications. N.O.Brown was my professor for an honors
seminar entitled Archetypal Analysis, and I ended up writing a paper on
parallels between Jean Danielou, (a French typologist), Teilhard de
Chardin, and Sandor Ferenzci.
At any rate, it's a fascinating theory. I am interested in tracking
down that paper you mentioned, "The Evolution of The Human Brain," by
Bruce........? Perhaps Cheshmak, or someone else, has discovered the
author's name by now?
Regards,
Henry
Henry W. Miller
Martinez, California,U.S.A.
hwmiller@ccnet.com
hwmiller@eworld.com
510-372-0709
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 03:12:28 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: DNA and Darwin on the brain
Dear Talismans,
Very interesting to read the different ideas on Darwinism and human evolution
from Robert Johnston, Robert Stockman and Ken and the others. I'd like to add
two more thoughts.
I remember hearing that, during His visit to the US, 'Abdu'l-Baha said that
materialism was contagious, just like TB and cancer. At that time, people
thought, 'Oh poor 'Abdu'l-Baha. He doesn't know that those diseases can't be
passed around.' Of course, the TB bacillus was identified shortly
afterwards and some forms of leukemia have been determined to be viral in
origin.
Recalling the quote, " Knowledge is twenty and seven letters. All that the
Prophets have revealed are two letters thereof...But when the Qa'im shall
arise, He will cause the remaining twenty five letters to be made manifest."(
KI), it is clear that our current level of knowlege in all areas is very,
very limited. So we should be quite tentative in evaluating the scientific
validity of the Writings in accordance with present theories, etc.
For an example of our currently quite minimal knowledge of heredity, consider
the following
(Source: _The Sciences_ 35 (3): 8-9. New York Academy of Sciences)
There is a lot of DNA in cells but only about 3% encodes for the manufacture
of proteins. The other 97% has been called "junk" DNA and has been ignored
since it doesn't code for protein and its function can't be determined.
However, a team of East Coast researchers recently applied two statistical
tests used on various languages to both the coding and "junk" DNA. They
found that the noncoding DNA showed the same frequency curve and hierarchy as
natural human languages, and it also had fractal-like properties. Their
conclusions: "There is something substantial in the noncoding regions."
Could it be a language?
When I read this, I thought of the Hidden Words in particular: #13 (Arabic)"
...Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within
thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting."
And # 16."Myriads of mystic tongues find utterance in one speech and myriads
of hidden mysteries are revealed in a single melody.."
There's a lot we don't know...
Best,
Sandy Fotos
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 16:26:06+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
unsubscribe talisman
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 10:23:24 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Biology and the soul
To: talisman@indiana.edu
If we are going to argue from Abdu'l-Baha's position, we should probably
recognize his assumptions. He is working from the classical Islamic
Avicennan/Sadrian system. According to Avicenna, a human rational
soul is emanated when there is a suitable material substrate for it.
If that is so, then the rational soul is not inherited, so there would be
no particular philosophical difficulty about men being descended from
apes (or, to be more accurate, being apes); only the human brain is a
suitable substrate for the emanation of a rational soul, although other
apes come very close.
However, I think this whole argument is misconceived and a gross
misuse of the writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha. Each was
asked endless questions by seekers coming from a large variety of
intellectual traditions: Sufism, Islamic law, Islamic philosophy,
Protestantism, modern science, etc. Each was a well educated man,
deeply versed in the culture of his time and place, and each was
committed to what is really a rather simple religious message: that
truth is one, that man receives moral and spiritual guidance from God,
and that every human intellectual and religious tradition reaches
towards God in its own way. They did not purport to teach about
evolutionary biology, subatomic physics, the history of philosophy,
or whatever. If we try to read them as though that is what they were
doing, the results will be silly. They did, however, constantly restate the
Baha'i message in the language of each seeker they dealt with.
Please remember the story of Baha'u'llah and the dervish from
*Dawn-Breakers*. Baha'u'llah was travelling and met a dervish
cooking dinner. When asked what he was doing, the dervish
explained that he was eating God. Baha'u'llah did not see fit to
condemn the "blasphemy."
On a related matter, I read Robert's letter from the Research Dept.
on Socrates as saying that it was a matter to be explained in terms
of the Islamic traditions about Socrates, which is what I have been
saying. The whole issue is laid out in great detail in the book by
Ilai Alon that they cite. The only novelty of the Baha'i texts is
that accounts refering originally to Empedocles have been assimilated
with the Socrates tradition.
john walbridge
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Re: Evolution
To: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 11:06:14 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Henry, the author's name came to me: Bruce Ryan. The last I heard,
he was taeching biology at a university in Arizona. Perhaps someone from
that neck of the woods has heard of him. Bruce is the only guy I've ever
met who could say, "Wanna come to my place and see my lichen collection?"
and really mean it!
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 11:05:43 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: evolution
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Mark, I cannot for the life of me understand what you mean by not having
the tools for studying evolution empirically. There are a multitude of ways to
study various aspects of evolution using excellent scientific methodology.
What else do you want? Why do Baha'is in the 1990s have to sound like my
Christian fundamentalist students who literally will not look at ape and
hominid skulls when I take them for tours of the anthropology museum? This
stuff is so exciting. I find it difficult to believe that intelligent Baha'is
don't relish in this stuff knowing that we are liberated from old religious
views that denied people the right to explore the universe without fear of
breaking religious law.
I guess my comments to Derek will have to wait. My husband, the Beloved
Listowner, has summoned me to assist him with some matter. I have not even
asked what it is, so dutiful and obedient a wife am I. Submissively, Linda
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 12:37:53 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Ahang:
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I think you and your friend are wrong about the Fadil and encyclopedia
affairs being fundamentally different. The fact is that though the
two episodes happened in very different settings, they have unfolded in
very similar ways over similar issues:
History was the sensitive issue.
The project was initially encouraged at the highest level..
The project was derailed when it was seen to disagree with a
popular portrayal of the Faith.
The decision to stop the project was made by the head of the
faith.
The decision to stop the project was made in the name of
maintaining intellectual uniformity.
The cast of characters is even related, with students and
admirers of the original principals involved in the
encyclopedia affair.
When you combine this with various other incidents and trends, you see
a pattern in the Faith--that history is an untouchable area, that
intellectual life must be uniform, that ideas must come from the top,
that diversity of opinion cannot be handled without crisis. This is
a pattern that goes back at least to the Fadil affair and probably
farther (Browne/Nuqtatu'l-Kaf, Avarih, or the Reading Room affair).
It seems to me that this is a problem that can only be satisfactorily
resolved through firm leadership from the House over a long period of
time. I see three alternatives:
1) The House makes the decision to encourage independent academic
investigation and then sticks to it through the inevitable complaints
until a more tolerant attitude becomes well established in
the community.
2) The House succeeds in maintaining the current policies of
uniformity of thought. The result will be to drive out or marginalize
Baha'i intellectuals and condemn the Faith to a status like that of
the Mormons: a religion that may be able to grow but is permanently
confined to a cult-like intellectual life and is therefore marginal
in the larger life of society.
3) Baha'i intelletuals simply cease to obey the House on matters
relating the intellectual life and scholarship. This would, I think, do
long-term damage, both by dividing the Faith and by making intellectual
life a permanent source of conflict within the community.
If things continue as they do, we will end up with (2) or (3), probably
(2).
As they told me when I first became a Baha'i, if you don't face a test,
it keeps coming back until you do.
What kinds of policies I think should be followed is a subject I will
discuss another time.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 09:39:11 -0800
To: SFotos@eworld.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: Safa Sadeghpour
Subject: Re: DNA and Darwin on the brain
At 03:12 AM 12/17/95 -0800, SFotos@eworld.com wrote:
>Dear Talismans,
>
>Very interesting to read the different ideas on Darwinism and human evolution
>from Robert Johnston, Robert Stockman and Ken and the others. I'd like to add
>two more thoughts.
>
>I remember hearing that, during His visit to the US, 'Abdu'l-Baha said that
>materialism was contagious, just like TB and cancer. At that time, people
>thought, 'Oh poor 'Abdu'l-Baha. He doesn't know that those diseases can't be
>passed around.' Of course, the TB bacillus was identified shortly
>afterwards and some forms of leukemia have been determined to be viral in
>origin.
>
>Recalling the quote, " Knowledge is twenty and seven letters. All that the
>Prophets have revealed are two letters thereof...But when the Qa'im shall
>arise, He will cause the remaining twenty five letters to be made manifest."(
>KI), it is clear that our current level of knowlege in all areas is very,
>very limited. So we should be quite tentative in evaluating the scientific
>validity of the Writings in accordance with present theories, etc.
>
>For an example of our currently quite minimal knowledge of heredity, consider
>the following
>(Source: _The Sciences_ 35 (3): 8-9. New York Academy of Sciences)
>
>There is a lot of DNA in cells but only about 3% encodes for the manufacture
>of proteins. The other 97% has been called "junk" DNA and has been ignored
>since it doesn't code for protein and its function can't be determined.
>
>However, a team of East Coast researchers recently applied two statistical
>tests used on various languages to both the coding and "junk" DNA. They
>found that the noncoding DNA showed the same frequency curve and hierarchy as
>natural human languages, and it also had fractal-like properties. Their
>conclusions: "There is something substantial in the noncoding regions."
This is fascinating. Do you happen to have a reference to it by any
chance?
Thanks.
Take care.
Safa
>
>Could it be a language?
>
>When I read this, I thought of the Hidden Words in particular: #13 (Arabic)"
>...Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within
>thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting."
>
>And # 16."Myriads of mystic tongues find utterance in one speech and myriads
>of hidden mysteries are revealed in a single melody.."
>
>There's a lot we don't know...
>
>
>Best,
>Sandy Fotos
>
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"My goal is simple. It is complete understanding of the universe, why it as
it is and why it exists as all." - Stephen Hawking
"Truth decays into beauty, while beauty soon becomes merely charm. Charm
ends up as strangeness, and even that doesn't last, but up and down are
forever." - The Laws of Physics
"The shining spark of truth comes forth only from the clash of differing
opinions." Abdu'l-Baha
Safa Sadeghpour (think@ucla.edu)
http://www.smc.edu/homepage/maclab/maclab.web/web/safa.web/safa.htm
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 10:40:49 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: The 1995 figures on the Removal and Restoring of Administrative Rights
in the USA Baha'i Community !
To: talisman@indiana.edu
To: farshid@ix.netcom.com
To: BANANI@humnet.ucla.edu
To: barney@leith.demon.co.uk
Dear Talismanians .
Some time ago on this list a debate ran regarding the number of
people who have their rights removed . A figure that was quoted
placed the percentage of the USA Baha'i community having their
rights removed at around 2% .
I was curious regarding the current figure as well as the accuracy of
the original data . I seem to recall the information quoted in the
posting was over 10 years old . I decided to request the current
data from the National Office . The figures show that far from a
system that seeks out individuals to remove their rights . Rather
one that trys to enable believers overcome their problems , of
setting in place a personal lifestyle that relates to the Teachings of
the Blessed Beauty .
The statistics are for 1995 from January 1st :
Removal of Rights : 37
Restoring of Rights : 19
Taking the USA Baha'i Community as 135,000 the removal rate is
0 . 0274 % .
I did not ask for the number of matters before the Office of
Community Administration and Development nor do I believe it
would have been correct to ask for such a figure .
I would suggest that the removal of the Rights of 37 people is a
tragedy for them personally and the local community each one is
part of . It does mean such a relatively light caseload that each case
can and is treated with all due care and concern by the NSA . That I
know has nothing to do with the point over what if the NSA is
involved directly in such situations . Those cases are rare and
infrequent and are not a regular part of the functioning of the USA
Baha'i National Community nor does it seem are the removal of
Administrative Rights for any matter .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut .
=END=
From: Peter_Tamas@bcon.com (Peter Tamas)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: infalibility thread request
Date: 17 Dec 1995 19:13:43 GMT
I've been a wall flower on the list for about four months and would like to
take a run at the infallibility question. Rather than begin with my partial
collection of posts on the thread, I'd like to have the whole picture before
I opened my ignorant mouth. So, if anybody has archived this thread
(infalibility of the House of Justice) I'd appreciate a copy.
Please don't expect quick turn around..I've done a bunch of this sort of
stuff at school and it generally takes me a while to come up with a
reasonable set of questions.
thanks
-Peter Tamas
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 07:14:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Miracles and history
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
One of my good friends who is rendering exemplary service at a
particular administrative post and lurks on Talisman just wrote and
raised a couple of interesting questions and since he invited me to
post it publicly as others may find it amusing (or better yet, offer
upgrades), then I'll take some bandwidth.
> In a message you posted last week you mentioned a manuscript
> by Shahmirzadi, which contains, as you put it, "Wild stories
> about miracles by Quddus and Mulla Husayn (and a few others)
> that you can't find in any sciencefiction!"
> Can you provide the title of this manuscript? Has it seen
> publication? Can you e-mail me some examples of the wildest
> of the "wild stories"? Finally, could you expound a little
> on what you think the source of these stories might be? Did
> Shahmirzadi invent them himself, or did he inflate stories
> told him by others, or did he faithfully record stories that
> had already grown wild and enormous through having been told
> and retold within the Babi-Baha'i community?
What is raised could actually be the subject of a very interesting
paper for the upcoming History conference, (but I think that after
letting the cat out of bag on Fadil's episode that organizers are
sufficiently annoyed with me to be barred from the event ...)
The title of the manuscript is simply "Vaqayi'ih Qal`ih" (the events
of the Fort) by Mirza Abu-Talib-i Shahmirzadi. He was a
"baqiatu'l-sayf" (remnant of the Fort) and together with a few other
survivors of Fort Tabarsi have each independently, penned their
recollection of the events of leading up to and during the Fort. None
of these been published (though a few short extracts appear in
Zuhuru'l-Haqq, vol. 3). The other important narratives are:
Lutf Ali Mirza Shirazi, Account of Uprising of Mazandaran, (I own two
versions of it; the better one is in the hand of Muhammad-Baqir
Tihrani, 111 pages). This work is early since he fell as a martyr
during 1852 pogrom.
Aqa Siyyid Hasan (Mahjur) Zavarih'i, "Vaqa'i-y Mimiyyih" (Events of
Mazandaran), (I have two versions of it: one 100 pages in his own
hand, the other 146 pages transcribed by M.A. Malik-Khusravi)
Hajji Ja`far Qazvini, "Tarikh", 52 pages, (was included in the first
edition of "Tarikh-i Samandar" but removed in subsequent printing of
that book -- the editors forgot to remove references to it from the
introduction and the Table of Contents ;-} Again this work is early
since Qazvini was martyred in 1852.
Hajji Nasir Qazvini, "Tarikh Qali'h-i Shaykh Tabarsi", 25 pages.
Another early work.
And there are some odds and ends such as Zavarih'i's account of Mulla
Husayn's martyrdom (in form of exceptionally moving poetry of some 20
pages long), etc.
Now, let me give a brief example of the sort of "miracle" story you
find in Shahmirzadi's account.
He related that on arriving at the Fort, he went straight to the
presence of Quddus who received them with much kindness and told them
to take his place among the defenders and receive daily instructions
from Mulla Husayn. In seeing Mulla Husayn, likewise, he uplifted
their his with words of encouragement and then told that nothing
happens in the Fort unless its the will of Jinab-i Quddus at its
appointed time. Mulla Husayn relates that for example when we were at
Sabzihmaydon and it was the time of prayers, I asked one of the
believers to call out the Adhan, who was shot immediately by the
town's people. The the second believer took up the adhan, who was
also shot, and then the third, at which I time I got on my horse and
road out and single-handedly dispersed the mob. (This much of the
story is in the Dawnbreakers too.) Then Mulla Husayn says that when I
returned back to the mosque, after having dispersed the mob, in front
of all believers I took off my belt which was holding together my Aba
(outer garment), and immediately fell to the ground hundreds of
bullets fired upon my by town's people. All these bullets had
penetrated my Aba but had failed to go through my shirt to harm me and
were thus collected around my belt.
Shahmirzadi goes on to report that many of time similar things
happened to himself while in the Fort -- as if God wanted him to
survive to tell of the events.
Of course, the beloved Guardian was very careful not to bring any of
these stories in the Dawnbreakers (if in fact Nabil had captured them,
which I understand that he had many "miracle" stories indeed) as it
would only undermine the integrity of the events. And of course the
beloved Guardian is correct (as if he needs my approval!) and we must
follow in his footsteps.
But again, it should be borne in mind, that Shoghi Effendi also
recognized that some of these "miracle" events were by then matters of
public records and non-Baha'i writers, such as Sipihr or Hedayat,
etc., were writing about them: such as the miracles associated with
the martyrdom of the Bab, or His going to bath episode in Urumi'ih,
etc. These he had to include in the Dawnbreakers and no body could
attack him since he could point to Ruzatu'l-Safa and say, "see,
Muslims and enemies are saying it too."
Now, you ask what the sources of these stories might be and if they
were inflated, etc. I believe that Shahmirzadi and all the other
reporters where exceptionally sincere and these things *actually
happened*. Shahmirzadi had no intention of leaving behind a
*history*. He only wrote his comments as a source of edification for
his own descendants -- a fact mentioned in the text along with his
instructions that the manuscript not leave the family (and how I ended
up with it is yet a different story). He wasn't trying to influence
Babi history, etc. He lived until 1892 and served the *Baha'i* Faith
and Baha'u'llah. There was no reason for him to create stories about
earlier days as his concern shifted to his new Faith. Besides,
similar stories are told by other survivors.
Incidentally, MacEoin maintains that the source of Nabil's story for
Fort Tabarsi is Shahmirzadi. I have proved this theory wrong and have
shown that the source is another narrative. Actually this is among a
more brilliant contributions on my part.
> While I have your attention, let me ask you a question about
> Nabil's Narrative: Is the passage known as "the Bab's
> address to the Letters of the Living," Baha'i scripture,
> according to your understanding? Is there any likelihood
> that this address was actually invented, in whole or in part,
> by Nabil? Or by Shoghi Effendi?
The Dawnbreakers (remember I use this term to distinguish it from
Nabil's Narrative with I consider a term for the *original* manuscript
of Nabil) is a book of history and not scripture in my view. The
Baha'is who elevate it to the level of Scripture will do the beloved
Guardian a great disservice. Hence in my view (however wrong others
may consider it to be), the Bab's address to the Letters of the Living
is simply an inspiration piece -- which *somewhat* resembles what the
Bab may have said on that evening.
It clearly and categorically NOT an invented of Shoghi Effendi.
It was not even invented by Nabil (though I have never seen Nabil's
text to be sure, but I trust Shoghi Effendi when he says its there).
So, where did it come from? And that question can't in all
probability ever be answered. But examining Nabil's actual text will
without doubt give us much better insights.
His narrative is rich with dialogue. Its very important to see his
*original* manuscript to see if he identifies the source(s) of his
dialogues or events. Also, its important to examine the original to
see the style of these dialogues. Let me give an example to clarify.
There are two important "farewell" addresses by the Bab: one given to
all the Letters and the second to Quddus in Bushihr (on their
supposedly last meeting -- which this "last meeting" is bogus but
that's a different story). If Nabil does not in fact identify his
source for these two "farewell" talks in original text, then I submit
examination of the original (and not the Guardian's translation) will
be of a great help. Here is my theory: Quddus probably told no one
except Mulla Sadiq Muqqadas-i Khurasani of what the Bab said to him,
so if the style of the two talks are indeed similar then it seems
likely the source for the Bab's farewell address to the Letters is
Mulla Sadiq. We won't know for sure, but we'll be on more solid
ground.
There are many, many questions which can only be answered by examining
the original of Nabil's text and where the translation has obscured
the details.
Anyway, these are my 2 cents worth. Perhaps others can add to them.
much love, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 14:50:47 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Nabil and "authentic" speeches
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Let us remember when evaluating these things that premodern historians
(and some modern popular historians) are in the habit of doing their
analysis by having the characters say what they *ought* to have said
at the time had they not been mere mortals. The grand master of
this technique was Thucydides; the speeches in his history of the
Peloponesian War are among the world's masterpieces of political
and historical analysis. It is possible that Nabil had a written
source for the Bab's farewell speech, but I suspect that it represents
an expansion of what Nabil heard second or third hand from participants
in the light of what Nabil thought was the significance of the occasion.
Its value therefore depends on what you think of Nabil's acumen as a
Babi historian.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 12:42:58 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Subject: Re: Review and translation
Dear John, you wrote in part:
>> A field like Baha'i studies is comparable to fields like the classics,
>>Egyptology, or Islamic studies.
>>john walbridge
Certainly the term "Baha'i studies" is a much larger umbrella than the
study of history, with all of its fascinating and nitty-gritty research,
verification of texts, translations, and so on.
Under the term "Baha'i studies," recognizing that there is an overall
Association for Baha'i Studies, how many spheres or fields of study and
investigation have been identified, or have simply developed into their own
niches or groups of Baha'i scholars pursuing their respective research? And
what organizations or vehicles for cross-communication now exist that we
might be informed of, from within or without the Association for Baha'i
Studies?
ABS doesn't have its own mailing list or other type of online clearing
house as far as I know. I haven't seen an ABS Homepage on the WWW yet. Is
there a group of scholars , for example, who are in constant touch around
the field of Health/Medicine/Nutrition, for example? Is there any other
online list reflecting more of that emphasis?
I have recently subscribed to the Baha'i-Intuition mailing list; I
certainly wouldn't want to dismiss that emphasis as outside the circle of
"Baha'i studies." And, of course, there are many private email
conversations occurring along more personal lines of interest. In that
sense Talisman may be similar to an iceberg, representing the "conscious"
tip - but only the tip of what is waiting to emerge or brought to
consciousness.
Talisman is a wonderful clearing house. I was thrilled to see a posting
from Luanne, for example, which dealt more with the "experiential" aspects
of integrating the "esoteric" and the "exoteric." Some Talismanians are
more interested in the abstract, theoretical mapping type of discussion in
referencing the "esoteric-exoteric" spiritual and/or scientific landscape.
Others desire an experiential, metaphorical (which does not imply a lack
of reality) sharing. Still others desire to discuss methodological tools,
primary and secondary sources. There is room for everyone. Confusion
occurs when metaphors are mixed, or when one writer makes unwarranted
assumptions about what another poster states, rather that inquiring or
asking for further delineation of one's thought.
It often feels like a demon of slippery thinking lurks here. Some
postings sound so absolutist. This is so strange, especially in a time
when the boundaries of thought and the parameters of various fields are
shifting, bumping into one another, and holographically shaping into a
whole new -as yet undefineable and ungraspable- unified field of
understanding. That does not imply that we don't observe, record,
hypothesize, measure, conclude, etc., but it does suggest that we should
take the "long view," as Sandy Fotos and others have intimated or stated
outright . It does mean, it seems to me, that one must ponder and search
for the "secret doors" where seemingly opposing or different fields of
study truly do access or hook up with one another. The true poet must of
necessity become also a scientist, and the scientist must also animate and
awaken materialistic thinking and become thereby a metaphorical,
mytho-poet. Talisman, afterall, is a metaphor suggestive of magical
qualities.
There is either oneness or there isn't. Reality does not admit of
multiplicity, the Writings state. If any one of us limits ourself to
thinking that "Baha'i studies" relates to only one of many equally
important fields of endeavor - spiritual and material - then it would be my
fear that the insights and joys deriving from a point of view of oneness
may well escape us.
I do not think any one of us escapes the responsibility of rethinking -
and reflecting upon - what she/he has written before it is sent. As I
rethought this I was reminded to thank you, John, for letting your posting
help me with mine. I responded to your posting with mostly an
observation-turned-question, and I have expanded it into more
of"observations-turned-lecture."
Thank you for starting and working so hard to operate and manage Talisman.
Regards,
Henry
Henry W. Miller
Martinez, California,U.S.A.
hwmiller@ccnet.com
hwmiller@eworld.com
510-372-0709
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 14:17:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: "JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.e" <"jwalbrid@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu"@esds01.
mrgate.bmoa.umc.dupont.com>,
talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Nabil and "authentic" speeches
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
What John says is very reasonable.
One could even take a step further and argue that this farewell
speech is the Babi version of the Biblical "Last Supper" -- after
all, the Babis were obsessed with the question of fulfillment of
Biblical/Islamic prophecies and strongly believed that they were
re-enacting previous historical events. And of course the speech
conveniently quotes the words of Jesus addressed to His disciples
at the Last Supper -- presumably for those too dense to figure
the symbolism.
But before we quickly dismiss it a yet another Babi myth or
invention of Nabil, let's keep in mind that several Letters of
the Living survived 1852 events and may have then left behind
memoirs. I've never seen reference to any, but am interested to
hear if others have.
At any rate, its a strange thing that a speech as inspirational
and historically important as this, is not referred to by anyone
else except Nabil. The Bab never refers to it. No other fellow
Letter wrote to Tahirih about it (that we know of). She makes no
mention of it in her writings. No evidence that Siyyid Javad
Karbali had heard from Muall Ali-y Bastami who should have
received a report of it from Shiraz. And above all, no similiar
sentiments in the Bab's Tablet to Mulla Ali Bastami sent to Iraq!
Curious!!?
ahang.
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 15:53:42 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: "Baha'i Studies"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Henry Miller is quite right; my discussion refered to a particular kind
of Baha'i studies: that which involves the scientific study of primary
sources. I don't want to dismiss such areas as Baha'i studies of
agriculture, addiction, etc. (to which Rob Stockman once gave the
splendid name of "applied Bahaism"), but at this stage in Baha'i history
they seem to raise fewer questions than that branch of study that asks
what the Faith is and where it came from and attempts to do so
scientifically rather than theologically.
john walbridge
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: evolution
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:14:36 -0600 (CST)
Linda Walbridge wrote to talisman@indiana.edu:
L>Dear Mark, I cannot for the life of me understand what you mean by not
L>having the tools for studying evolution empirically. There are a
L>multitude of ways to study various aspects of evolution using
L>excellent scientific methodology. What else do you want? Why do
L>Baha'is in the 1990s have to sound like my Christian fundamentalist
L>students who literally will not look at ape and hominid skulls when I
L>take them for tours of the anthropology museum? This stuff is so
L>exciting.
Hi, Linda -
Thanks for your note.
I used to teach a 400-level (senior) course entitled "Human
Evolution and Prehistory" at the southwest campus of the University of
Virginia - Clinch Valley College - back when I chaired the Department of
Social and Behavioral Sciences there. Certainly, I am familiar with the
methodologies which have been used to empirically study hominid/primate
evolution.
I don't think that I ever said that we do not have the tools for
studying evolution empirically. What I wrote was:
It [the divine ordering of creation] teaches us about the
purposefulness of evolution - a dimension of science which
is unattainable using the normal tools of empirical research.
By purpose, I meant God's purpose for existence (loving and knowing God,
developing virtues, etc.), which we know through studying the divine
teachings. Material science cannot teach us about the purposeful power
(spirit) of the soul. It can only observe outward appearances. OTOH, the
divine metaphysics brought by the Prophets fills that gap in our
knowledge.
Warm greetings to you,
Mark (Foster)
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates His creative diversity.
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:25:03 +1300 (NZDT)
To: SFotos@eworld.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: DNA and Darwin on the brain
Dear Sandy,
Great! Loved it.
Metaphysically, humans were seen as metaphysical entities; modernly, humans
were seen as biological entities; postmodernly, human beings are seen as
essentially...communicators. Religiously: all three.
If you are able, could you please sent to me your recent letter on fractals.
Robert....
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 16:23:49 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Baha'i studies
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Heaven forbid that I should publicly disagree with my husband, but I really
don't understand the concept of "Baha'i agriculture" or "Baha'i nutrition." I
can understand studying the Faith theologically, historically, and socially (or
anthropolgically), but beyond that, I haven't a clue as to what anyone means.
Linda
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:21:49 EST
Subject: infallability (2pgs.)
Dear Friends,
First, I would like to acknowledge that my response to the above
is assisted by a dear unknown scholar friend Walter Wootten age 65
and a Baha'i since age of 18 and taught by Hand of the Cause Agnes
Alexander in Honolulu while a young Marine Corps person at the time,
who has the responsibility of my staying in the Faith through hard times.
He states that the statements here are advisory and not decretal, as
he is labile, (subject to error).
"Infallability issue is dealt with in the Kitab'i Iqan p. 181-182.
It is stated that there are seven degrees within the realm of the
infallable Divine Unity; previous to this precious Book, no one had
it altogether. The seven degrees within the Divine Unity
stipulated are as follows (see reference p.181 Kitab'i Iqan)
1) Divinity; Baha'u'llah??
2) Lordship; Bab?? (see page 86 Prayers and Meditations by
Bahau'llah)
3) Prophethood; (Moses? Jesus? Muhammad? Buddha? Krishna? etc.
these are Prophets endowed with Constancy; Lawgivers, Legislator
Prophets )
4) Messengership; e.g. The lesser Prophets of the House of Israel?
examples; Isaah? Daniel, Jeremiah etc.
5)Guardianship; (Shoghi Effendi?)
6)Apostleship; (The Twelve Imams of the Islamic Dispensation?)
and possibly John the Writer of the Revelation of St. John?? Not sure
about John.
7) Servitude; Question: Mr. Wootten is unable to make any reference
or give examples on this rank and is asking for further
assistance of those who may know.
Shoghi Effendi in Mrs. May Maxwell's Haifa Pilgrim Notes, 1937
pointed out that threre are two types of infallibility;
1) Innate
2) Derived
It is up to the reader or inquirer to discover or ascertain which of
the seven degrees are innate or derived. I (Walter)presume all are innate
infallability;THUS THE GUARDIAN IS INFALLABLE IN EVERTHING! To
admit otherwise would open Pendoras Box for every snake and mouse and
spider to crawl out challenging the infallability of the Guardian
of the Cause of God. Some said that the Guardian is not an Authority on
science. Then the question; who is Authority on science which has
never been defined. It has been only recently that we have used the
coined term "scientist" and all scientists disagree among themselves
about the foundation of the empiricism. So, how could anyone say that
the Guardian is not an Authority on science? Rumi in his Mathnawi
over 700 years ago stated that all of these sciences in the Light of
Divine Revelation are as dainty nosegay.
Touching upon derived infallability, these offices subsist by virtue
of the corollaries derivative of their function, pursuing the Divine
Law. Thus, for example if a Prophet of God establishes an Institution
it is a Divine Institution. Therefore, it enjoys derived
infallability. For example, in Kitab'i Aqdas in 1873 Baha'u'llah
divinely creates the Universal House of Justice to legislate in areas
of human endeavour, not specifically stipulated in the Aqdas.
This is derived infallability. So far as we are concerned must be
obeyed, unquestioningly. Another example is the Institution of the
Hands of the Cause of God, during the period between 1957-63 where
there was no Guardianship the Institution as a Body enjoyed derived
infallability pursuing their divinely stipulated duties in the Aqdas.
Therefore they had the derived infallability to officially convoce
the election of the Universal House of Justice in 1963.
With respect to the challenging of Authority of Infallibility by the
believers, those who presume to speak in God's Name who have not been
officially designated by the Manifestation of God, we are at liberty
to challenge. Lying imposters are the chief creators of fear in the
hearts of men. Those who presume to be authorities in that wonderful
NO MAN'S LAND at the metaphysical realm between the Prophet of God
and his creatures and who do not hold credentials from the
Manifestation of God may be challenged and ignored. This applies to
the so called empirical fields of theology, metaphysical abstraction,
natural magic-all three (LEARNINGS) of which have been discredited in
Baha'u'llah's Kitab'i Iqan.
We already have in society two ranks of military men:
1) officers
2) enlisted men.
An officer is to all intents and purposes, so far as an enlisted men
is concerned unchallengeable and within the degree of officership we
have generals,colonels, majors, liutenants and ensigns etc., even as
we have seven degrees within the realm of Divine Unity all are
infallable.
We next get to the nitty grityy and the cutting edge of the
discussion as to which are fields in empiricism and which not?
The human mind is just as much a facet of the unseen realm as the
rest of the unseen realm. It therefore is within the province of the
Prophet of God or the Manifestations of God, or possibly within those
Institutions enjoying derived infallability to pronounce upon the
subject of the legitimacy of empirical fields residing within the
unseen realm. Even as we have discovered the Periodic Table in
chemistry to which we are continually and periodically adding
elements, even so before an empirical field in metaphysical realm is
accorded official recognition and proof of existence, a PERIODIC
TABLE OF THE ELEMENTS OF HUMAN MIND is necessary, before the field
can be officially established and before we can discuss intelligently
such disciplines as psychology which has its premises based on
empirical studies on animal behaviors, theology, philosophy, economic
theory, sociology- in short the entire gammut of social sciences.
Abdu'lBaha as recorded in Star of the West said that a thing cannot
know itself (paraphrased?). It stands to simple reason that the
encompassor can understand the encompassed; the surrounder can fathom
the surrounded, but not vice versa. Therefore, in order to talk about
the human mind, we have to stand on the ground of not-mind. Can you
imagine what this should do to the current university curricula,
especially in social and behavioral and philosophical studies and all efforts of
metaphysical abstraction, and the sciences of prediction beyond
natural law?
greetings,
Walter R. Wootten
P.S.: Mr. Wootten is only a guest who is leaving today and
enjoys no access to e-mail. I only was his typist in this effort.
However, I will forward any reply by snail mail to him.
*** ***
* *
*
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:51:00 EST
Subject: Servitude
Addendum to previous posting regarding 7 degrees of infallability
7) Servitude; perhaps relevant to this rank is Baha'u'llah's
perplexing verse in His Epistle to The Son of The Wolf:
"Servitude is a substance the essence of which is divinity"
Thus far we consciously know only of the two facets of Divinity:
1) Matter; the people who were and are the denizens of matter are
empiricists and kings and civil rulers.
2) Spirit; the denizens of spirit have been ecclesiastics and
mystics.
For 6 thousands years these two campers have been fighting
each other. The question which I entertain as a node of difficulty
is:
IS THE RANK OF SERVITUDE PROPOUNDED BY BAHA'ULLAH IN THE AFORESAID
PASSAGES A THIRD FACET OF DIVINITY???? WOW!!!!!!
If so, is this rank of Servitude will adequate for the first time in
history the competing vectors of Matter and Spirit; thus, reorienting
the human mind in a completely different direction than the denizens
of the Spirit of Matter who are at each others' throats???
The institution of Servitude is the only way to unite these two
warring elements of bidders for royal or ecclesiastical
transcendancy.
greetings,
Walter Wootten
*** ***
* *
*
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:01:35 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Another suggestion regarding scholarship
Dear Everyone,
As I understand it the compeletion date for the Centre of
the Study of the Sacred Text is only a few short years away - I am
guessing about 1 1/2 since from the pictures the skeleton is almost
finished.
What if we ask the Universal House of Justice about their
plans for the work at the Centre for the, say, next 10
years after its completion: how does the House prioritize
the massive basic scholarly work that remains.
John mentioned that he would share his suggestions regarding
scholarship - may be the consulation on the matter can
generate recommendations to the House regarding possible
projects for the Centre.
BTW, Ahang's posts about reported miracles at Shaykh
Tabarsi have a "Raiders of the Lost Ark" ring to them!
I hope he, and others, will share more of what they know.
take care,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 13:54:53 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Marion Hofman's funeral
To: talisman@indiana.edu
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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 21:29:17 +0000
To: bahai-exchange-uk@bcca.org
From: Barney Leith
Subject: Marion Hofman's funeral
Cc: DEREK COCKSHUT
X-SMTP-Posting-Host: leith.demon.co.uk [Tue, 12 Dec 95 21:26:38 GMT]
X-SMTP-Posting-Host: post.demon.co.uk [Tue, 12 Dec 95 21:27:12 GMT]
Status: RO
12 December, 1995
Over a hundred people attended Marion Hofman's funeral in Oxford today.
The
service was simple, but moving. Marion's granddaughters (Mark and
Deborah's
children), Martha and Mary, together with May Hofman, played the second
movement of J.S. Bach's Concerto in D minor for two violins. That music
was
so apt, dissolving us in tears of recollection, bringing us back to the
centre ground of commemoration. A wonderful beginning.
The message from the Universal House of Justice was read (by the writer
of
this message).
Hasan Sabri delivered the eulogy, personal recollections of the help
Marion
gave him as a young man, of her generosity, her faithfulness to those
she
loved, her utter dedication to the Cause and faithfulness to the
Covenant.
Prayers and extracts from the Writings were read by Manoocher Samii,
Paddy
O'Mara, Erica Leith, and May Hofman. Mrs Taeedi chanted beautifully a
prayer of `Abdu'l-Baha. And Mark Hofman read "Blest pair of sirens" and
another short poem, both by John Milton.
At the graveside, David Hofman recited the Obligatory Prayer for the
Dead
with a strong voice and looking up to heaven as he read.
Juliet and Novin Doostdar hosted a reception after the funeral, where
David
Hofman read out the wonderful message from Ruhiyyih Khanum and spoke
briefly of the other messages he had received from around the world.
Part of Khanum's message:
SADDENED NEWS PASSING MY DEAR OLD FRIEND MARION, DEVOTED, OUTSTANDING
VERY
ACTIVE BELIEVER IN NORTH AMERICA DURING MY GIRLHOOD AND LATER IN HER
YEARS
IN GREAT BRITAIN AND EUROPE. HISTORY HER MANY DEVOTED SERVICES WILL NOT
BE
FORGOTTEN BY THOSE WHO LOVED AND ADMIRED HER. MY ARDENT HOPE IS THAT
HER
CHILDREN WILL BEFITTINGLY APPRECIATE HER WORTH AND FOLLOW IN HER
FOOTSTEPS
IN SERVING THE CAUSE OF GOD AND THROUGH IT THEIR CONTEMPORARY
GENERATION IN
SUCH A WAY AS TO GLADDEN HER SPIRIT AND BRING JOY TO HER SOUL IN THE
REALMS
BEYOND TO WHICH SHE IS NO DOUBT WELCOMED BY MANY WHO LOVED HER IN THIS
LIFE, INCLUDING THE SPIRIT OF MY OWN DEAR MOTHER.
It was a wonderful service, simple, deeply moving, entirely
appropriate. I
think many of us felt Marion's spirit close by.
Barney
=========================================================
* Barney Leith Leith Editorial Services
* Writing * Editing * Typography * Layout * Print Production Management
* 24 Gardiner Close, Abingdon, Oxon OX14 3YA, UK
* e-mail: barney@leith.demon.co.uk
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing...
Baha'u'llah
=========================================================
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:54:50 +1300 (NZDT)
To: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Biology and the soul
ffolks,
I could not but read John's letter with dismay and a profound sense
of loss. Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha reduced to being well-read
gentlemen, a narrow and prejudiced reading of the Research Dept material on
Socrates, the Baha'i view that the human soul comes into existence at
conception over-ridden...
I scan the horizon for support, but feel hopelessly outnumbered. If
John's view represents the prevailing viewpoint among American Baha'i
intellectuals, then I must surely retreat from the field, and leave the
proponents of what I consider to be a perverse position to themselves... A
long time must pass before the meaning of the harmony of science and
religion will be genuinely grasped, I feel. Intuitively, I feel that
greatest inroads will be made only after entry by troops. Then, huge
numbers from the among the unlettered will rapidly acquire learning while
retaining a simple and vital faith. Brahmanic American Baha'i
intellectuals by contrast will find themselves in a condition of severe
loss, as their materialistic and dessicated theories are trampled under by
the sheer weight of an advancing humanity...
Thank God Mark Foster is on Talisman!
Robert.
=END=
From: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Subject: Man, Apes, and "Junk" DNA...
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:03:29 -0600 (CST)
Dear friends,
Some quick thoughts on posts by Mark (re: Evolution) and Sandy (re: Junk
DNA). The point is often made of the extreme genetic similarity between man
and chimpanzees (let's say on the order of 98% identity at the DNA sequence
level). Well, you know, you can do a lot with that 2%! It is estimated that
we have about 100,000+ genes so that could be as many as 2,000 genes, assuming
none of the dissimilarity was in "junk" DNA regions, which would probably be a
naive assumption. Let's say, then, that 90% of the 2% difference was junk
DNA; that
still leaves 200 genes to play with. You can do an awful lot with 200 genes
not only in terms of the function of the genes themselves but how their
expression is spatially and temporally regulated. This is particularly
relevant with developmental transcription factors whose function is to turn on
whole sets of other genes (it's really like a wondrous symphony when you start
to think about it). These genes can regulate such critical parameters in
development as the number of times brain cells undergo cell division
during development which will determine the brain size of a particular species..
..Finally, the brains of chimpanzees and apes are PHYSICALLY different from
humans in very important ways, undoubtedly as a consequence of these seemingly
small genetic differences, which however have enormous developmental
consequences.
Sandy mentioned some interesting information about so called "Junk" DNA and
there is little doubt in my mind that more and more will be uncovered about
the function of this paradoxical DNA "stuffing"! A really intriguing point,
however, is that without this junk "DNA" which is highly polymorphic (sequence
variation) in mammals, there probably would have been no efficient method to
start finding the many genes responsible for genetically based diseases such
as cystic fibrosis, huntington's, muscular dystrophy, amyelotrophic lateral
schlerosis (Lou Gehrig's disease) etc...Indeed the ability to map and sequence
the human genome (admittedly a potentially double-edged sword) has depended on
this junk DNA. Briefly, the reason the junk DNA is important is that because
it does not code for any particular function (at least no obvious function) it
can accumulate mutations without affecting its carrier and can therefore be
passed on indefinitely. Oh, Oh, I think I just bit off more than I want to
chew here, but for those interested the basic principle behind genetic mapping
is linkage analysis.
(there was an excellent article about this in one of the summer or early fall
Scientific American-Medicine issues).
So THANK GOD for "junk" DNA!!!
Warmest Regards to All!
Ken
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: Solar / Lunar Observances of Baha'i Holy Days
To: talisman@indiana.edu (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:03:44 MST
Dear Friends,
What follows is a partially completed schedule of Baha'i Observances
according to their solar or lunar basis for observing them within the
Baha'i (Badi) calendar.
I seek your assistance in completing this schedule if that is possible
at this time. Please post back the unknown bases marked with an "?", as
well as correcting any errors or omissions. Perhaps the following
comments will be useful:
- References for Textual Authority are to the Kitab-i-Aqdas, and
Question and Answers.
- Under "East" and "BWC" columns I am looking for first-hand
observations, not hearsay. Please quote chapter and verse for Textual
Authorities.
Also, with respect to the observances of the Twin Holy Birthdays even
though it is current practice to commemorate these on a solar basis in
the West, and even though it remains for the House to determine the
solar or lunar basis for commemorating these observances, the burning
question is: is there any restriction on we in the West celebrating
these now on a lunar basis? TERRY, I know this question burns in your
heart too.
_______________
Schedule of Current Baha'i Practices and Textual Authorities
for Determining Solar or Lunar Basis for Baha'i Observances
Basis for Observation(1)
--------------------- Textual
Baha'i Observances West East BWC Authority(2)
________________________________________________________________________
Naw-Ruz Solar Solar Solar Solar: Q35
Ridvan Festival(3) Solar(4) Solar Solar Solar: Q1
Declaration of the Bab Solar(4) ? ? Lunar: Q36
Ascension of Baha'u'llah Solar(4) ? ? ?
Martyrdom of the Bab Solar(4) ? ? ?
Birth of the Bab Solar Lunar Lunar Lunar: K110, Q36
Birth of Baha'u'llah Solar Lunar Lunar Lunar: K110, Q36
Day of the Covenant Solar ? ? ?
Ascension of Abdu'l-Baha Solar(4) ? ? ?
Ayyam-i-Ha Solar Solar Solar Solar: K16
The Baha'i Fast Solar Solar Solar Solar: K16
____________________
(1) "Given that the Baha'i calendar ... is a solar calendar, it remains
for the Universal House of Justice to determine whether the Twin Holy
Birthdays are to be celebrated on a solar or lunar basis"(note 138 of
the Kitab-i-Aqdas). Current practices given are for the Eastern,
Western and Baha'i World Centre communities
(2) References given are for determining the days for observances only.
For example, Naw-Ruz is commanded in K16, but Q35 fixes the day
astronomically.
(3) First, Ninth and Twelfth are Holy Days
(4) Shoghi Effendi, quoted in "Dawn of a New Day", p.68, outlines the
proper time to celebrate these Holy Days. However, the solar or lunar
determination of the dates are subject to legislation by the Universal
House of Justice.
Loving regards,
stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
To: Talisman
Subject: Greetings
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 17:37:12 -0500
From: "William P. Collins"
-- [ From: William P. Collins * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
It has been several months since I was last subscribed to Talisman (I
needed the respite), so it is appropriate that I introduce myself again to
those who subscribe to the list. In fairness to the real complexities of
the human reality, however, I preface this introduction with my favorite
words from the Broadway musical "A Chorus Line": "What am I to say? Am I my
resume. which is a picture of a person I don't know?" So I give you a
resume, but it is not me.
People usually call me Bill. My ancestors, may God's peace be upon them,
appear to be the typical British and northern European stock that took over
the native territories and turned them into New England. My great-
grandfather John Collins came from Northamptonshire to the U.S. in the 1870s
. He married Mary L. Denison, descendant of stern New England
congregationalist stock that produced a number of Harvard-graduated clergy:
the Denisons, Miners, Chesebroughs, Crandalls, Palmers, Tracys, Clarkes,
Ingrahams, and so forth. Some of those ancestors (Howlands and Tilleys)
were on the Mayflower, though one of them, thank goodness, was an indentured
servant. They were met by my wife's Wampanoag ancestors, who got them
through that legendary winter that we associate with Thanksgiving. My
mother's family are mostly descendants of Palatine immigrants who were
brought to New York state by Governor Hunter to make naval stores on the
Hudson. The naval stores project never worked, but the Palatines were
terribly successful - the largest single immigration during the colonial
period. One of my ancestors, Johannes Leyer/Layer, is the progenitor of the
Lawyer family. Everyone you know with that last name is descended from him.
I was born in 1950 and grew up in the small hamlet of Brisben, about 20
miles north of Binghamton. I was an introspective kid, read a lot of
history and Shakespeare, and never was without a sense that God was around.
I studied all the religions during my teenage years, and heard about the
Baha'i Faith from a television program in 1968 just after I graduated from
high school (my valedictory address was about unity). I became a Baha'i
that fall at Middlebury College, after independently reading the Kitab-i-
Iqan, Gleanings, Prayers & Meditations, Baha'i World Faith, Some Answered
Questions, and The Advent of Divine Justice. The first Baha'is I met were
those who came to enroll me.
At Middlebury I majored in French and Russian, with minors in Spanish and
Geology (B.A. 1972). I got a Masters in Library Science from Syracuse
University in 1973, and worked at Middlebury College for three years. In
1976-77 I worked at the State Historical Society of Wisconsin. From 1977-
1990 I was Librarian of the Baha'i World Centre. And now I work at the
Library of Congress.
I have written a few articles, mostly on the Faith and some about
librarianship, and compiled a bibliography. I just completed my Master of
Social Science degree at Syracuse University by independent study, with a
thesis on "The Millerites and Time Prophecy: Their Function as Millennial
Themes in the American Baha'i Community."
I have two children, both teenagers. My wife Rachel is an artist and
scientific illustrator who happens to have been trained as a librarian and
archivist.
I like a cappella music. Five guys at the World Centre were part of a doo-
wop group called The Carmels. I am also thrilled by the current spate of
movies based on Jane Austen's novels. If you haven't seen "Persuasion" and
"Sense and Sensibility", what are you doing with your time?
There's much more, but it would probably bore you. I do not post much; I
read and listen and bide my time.
Bill Collins
wcol@loc.gov
--
William Collins
6819 Stoneybrooke Lane, Alexandria, VA 22306, USA
wcol@loc.gov (w) or 4705541@mcimail.com (h)
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 18:09:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: EVOLUTION
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Linda, As a former geologist with six years of training as a
paleontologist, I second your remarks. The universe as seen through the
lens of the evolutionary process is truly grand and exciting. I for one
am glad to be free from the shackles of the fundamentalist approach to
science. I am reminded of a wonderful account that occurred just after the
publication of Darwin's _Origin of Species_. As we all know, many of the
more conservative theologians at that time objected to Darwin's view
because they thought it somehow lessened the grandeur and power of God.
Other more thoughtful theologians argued that the theory of evolution made
God seem much more powerful and grand because, as they said: Before Darwin
we were taught that God in "his" greatness made the universe in six days,
but now we know that God is greater, for "he" created the universe to
create itself!
I've always thought the Baha'i discussion of evolution could benefit from
the insights found in process philosophy and theology, especially the work
of Henri Bergson, Alfred North Whitehead and Charles Hartsworne. Bergson's
_Creative Evolution_ is especially good, IMO, in dealing with Abdul-Baha's
comments about evolution. Anyone care to respond? I would need to reread my
Bergson to delve into this further, but I have promised myself to do this
for a long time.
LW>Dear Mark, I cannot for the life of me understand what you mean by not
LW>the tools for studying evolution empirically. There are a multitude of
LW>study various aspects of evolution using excellent scientific methodolo
LW>What else do you want? Why do Baha'is in the 1990s have to sound like
LW>Christian fundamentalist students who literally will not look at ape an
LW>hominid skulls when I take them for tours of the anthropology museum?
LW>stuff is so exciting. I find it difficult to believe that intelligent
LW>don't relish in this stuff knowing that we are liberated from old relig
LW>views that denied people the right to explore the universe without fear
LW>breaking religious law.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers. Vol
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 18:05:12
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston),
talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re[2]: Darwin on the Brain...
I'm not sure anyone can PROVE `Abdu'l-Baha wrong in a matter such as
evolution, but there are varying levels of probability to consider.
IF `Abdu'l-Baha's statements about evolution are meant to STATE that
humans never had any genetic interaction with the rest of life on the
Earth--that humanity is a completely independent tree of life on the
Earth--then there are massive scientific problems. As I said, one can
hold such a position; but if one does, one cannot condemn Christian
Fundamentalists for maintaining that the fossils in the rocks were
created by Satan to fool us. The issue is that the harmony of science
and religion--one principle stated by `Abdu'l-Baha--would contradict
your understanding of the principle of infallibility (and possibly the
Baha'i understanding of infallibility; the exact nature of this
principle is not clear either).
But whether this conflict really exists is not yet clear. First of
all, the statements by `Abdu'l-Baha about evolution are either from
oral talks--nonscripture--or from unreliable translations. Possibly
the entire issue of interpreting `Abdu'l-Baha will be resolved by
better translations. Or, possibly, the issue will become more
complex.
Now, one other matter: `Abdu'l-Baha and science. Considering that
Shoghi Effendi's secretary has said Shoghi Effendi was not infallible
in matters of science and economics, and we have a letter of the House
of Justice noting that `Abdu'l-Baha reported to a group of friends
information about martyrdoms in Yazd that had been reported to Him but
was not correct, we have, I think, reason to wonder whether
`Abdu'l-Baha sould be considered infallible in science. (These
documents have been posted on Talisman several times.) But there will
have to be a lot more work done before we can settle this matter.
Even if `Abdu'l-Baha is not infallible in matters of science, I am not
sure whether that would "marginalize... [Him] to the outskirts of
science." That depends on what we mean by "marginalize" and
"outskirts."
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Darwin on the Brain...
Author: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston) at INTERNET
Date: 12/16/95 7:02 PM
Robert Stockman wrote:
It is better to
> remember (1) `Abdu'l-Baha was making theological statements, not
> scientific ones, and possibly not even philosophical ones;
This appears to marginalise the station of 'Abdu'l-Baha to the outskirts of
science. Even the fool Heidegger knew that modern science was a mere
branch of metaphysics. Robert, if you can prove 'Abdu'l-Baha wrong, then
I'll listen. If you can't then I humbly suggest you give Him the benefit
of the doubt...[at least]
Robert (barking mad on a long black Sunday afternoon) Johnston
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:21:54 +1200
To: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
ffolks,
Dann, Robert S and Linda (et al) express their positions on
evolution in extreme ways. That is: if yer not with Darwin yer a
fundamentalist and think the world was made in seven days. The
articulation of this polarity is a sure indication of the weakness of BOTH
positions. Any intellectual position that is not moderate is untrue.
Robert.
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 18:11:35 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Safa Sadeghpour
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
At 02:21 PM 12/18/95 +1200, Robert Johnston wrote:
>ffolks,
> Dann, Robert S and Linda (et al) express their positions on
>evolution in extreme ways. That is: if yer not with Darwin yer a
>fundamentalist and think the world was made in seven days. The
>articulation of this polarity is a sure indication of the weakness of BOTH
>positions. Any intellectual position that is not moderate is untrue.
Dear Robert,
It might be better to present specific arguments against a specific positions
instead of proclaiming general conditions of truth.
It is not true that anything that is not moderate is necessarily
not true. A perfect example might be that of God's existence: Is
God's existence true, or does He half-exist? Existence or non-existence. . .
the two extremes are the only options.
Take care.
Safa
>
>Robert.
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"My goal is simple. It is complete understanding of the universe, why it as
it is and why it exists as all." - Stephen Hawking
"Truth decays into beauty, while beauty soon becomes merely charm. Charm
ends up as strangeness, and even that doesn't last, but up and down are
forever." - The Laws of Physics
"The shining spark of truth comes forth only from the clash of differing
opinions." Abdu'l-Baha
Safa Sadeghpour (think@ucla.edu)
http://www.smc.edu/homepage/maclab/maclab.web/web/safa.web/safa.htm
=END=
From: PayamA@aol.com
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 21:54:42 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: The 1995 figures on the Removal and Restoring of Rights
Since removal of rights usually involves 'active' Baha'is, then I think we
should use the number for the Baha'i population that represents the active
community. Wouldn't that put the number closer to 0.1% ?
That number, though very small, is about the same as the pecentage of the
population that are Baha'is in many countries. And we feel those numbers are
highly significant.
Payam
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 19:24:18 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: The Truth of MENSA without the N in DC the other story ! A tale of
varied pranks part one !
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians
Linda's wild antics at Mensa with out the N or John and Juan's reasons
for wearing dark glasses in the middle of the night in Washington DC.
Linda very kindly admitted to a fit of the giggles in the line at the
Hotel at the thought of tap-dancing on the Registration desk to the
song 'Oh why are we waiting '. She failed to mention kicking the
Achilles heels of two people ahead of her so she could advance in
line .While they rolled in agony on the floor .Off telling the gray
haired gentleman from Morocco his French girlfriend was waiting in the
Hotel Sportsbar . The gentleman's wife grabbed him by the throat saying
the immortal words "I knew this wasn't an academic forum . " The
commotion that followed saw our Linda slipping to the head of the line
.
She then dragged over the registration counter the clerk who refused
to upgrade the Walbridge room to a suite ,claiming the person was
prejudiced against Shiite women scholars . The Hotel had to promise
to place a full page of advertising in Linda's book when it comes out
, have given her free hotel soap for life as well as a monthly shower
cap to be hand delivered to Bloomington Indiana., to the Walbridge
Estates .
Every morning at breakfast she baited an innocent scholar from Egypt
with the taunt " No good works since the Pyramids in your backyard
Sonny Boy " Kept throwing pieces of melon at the a Sunni Sufi
Academic followed with the chant : The Caliphs got you down and be
a loser in Mecca .
The plenary session presentation on the role of Mystics in the
development of Islamic Jurisprudence was twice stopped by Linda
doing cartwheels on stage . Her explanation to the assembled and
rather confused academics was that carting needed looking into as a
form of thought processing in the early days of Islamic Community
development and especially the thorny issue of the ijaza that required
riding backwards transsexual donkeys the 6th Monday of each month .
Two bearded Imams from Kuwait wearing long flowing robes got
accosted by Linda at dinner on the second night to the cry " I can
twirl better without a beard watch me spin , Women save it " Both
chaps had a poor command of English and thought Linda wanted to shave
off their beards and left on the next flight home nervous wrecks .
The Nights were one terrible incident after another including chasing
my dear friend Juan Cole around the hotel lobby using a foghorn to
bellow out : Watch me dunk this one in the Pool .and where are your
leather clad female twins cousins now Matey !.
The DC Mosque incident was very bad in addition to yelling "Watch it
Bandaged Heads " She sprayed with pepper the next speaker causing
him to cancel due to sneezing . Then did an Irish jig with the odd
repeated remark this is what they did in Fustat in 152 AH . Finishing
off by getting the daughters of the Imam-Jumih of Washington DC
Mosque to dance the Can-Can to her loud shouts of ; you won't get
them back on the Farm now that they have seen Paris .
I will post on Tuesday more of the various happenings that occurred .
I believe poor John has really been put through a lot .
Especially when Linda burst into the study session on modernization of
Druze's Society to the 21st century demanding they read "Javid Nama "
as the salvation to their problem . When they refused she promptly
spray painted them in bright yellow .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 16:09:13 +1200
To: Safa Sadeghpour , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
Dear Safa,
>
>It might be better to present specific arguments against a specific positions
>instead of proclaiming general conditions of truth.
One thing that amazes me is the logical inconsistencies of empiricistic
personages. In your above sentence you do what you ask me not to do. Are
you able to see this? If not we can spent more time examining the matter.
>
>It is not true that anything that is not moderate is necessarily
>not true. A perfect example might be that of God's existence: Is
>God's existence true, or does He half-exist? Existence or non-existence. . .
>the two extremes are the only options.
First of all, what I wrote was : "Any intellectual position that is not
moderate is untrue." A ref. for this: Baha'i Faith is the religion of the
middle way (Shoghi Effendi). The Darwinistic viewpoint expresses itself in
anti-religious forms (see letters to Talisman which again seek to devalue
the station of 'Abdu'l-Baha, etc; and Darwin's own works): fundamentalism
expresses itself in anti-scientific forms. These are extreme positions.
To state that God exists is not an immoderate statement. To state that MY
GOD exists and yours doesn't is immoderate. That that is just was these
Darwinists and fundamentalists are doing. They are the flip side of each
other, and not susceptible to rational argumentation.
God wins the day, brother: moderation is ultimately determined by
relationship to the Word of God. An intellectual position that departs
from the Word of God eventually becomes implicated in immoderation.
I not longer expect that what I write will have anymore influence than has
a snowball in hell. But it seems that, like the sparrow, I am destined to
sit on the wire and sing, for no apparently good reason...
Robert.
=END=
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 95 19:40:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- part 4
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
First a note of thanks to all who continue to send private supportive
emails about comments on Fadil's case. I don't mean to sound rude by
this, but you must forgive me if I don't engage in further discussion
of this episode and the specifics of the case -- mostly since I really
don't know all the details (I thought I made that very clear already),
but also partly because I believe we can do the memory of this great
man a disservice by continuing to discuss his case.
But since I love Fadil's work, I will continue to discuss ZH series.
And before I do, please allow me to make a suggestion and hope that
Rob Stockman would forward it for the consideration of appropriate
committee:
A formal Fadil-i Mazandarani lectures be instituted at the annual
History Conferences in Wilmette.
Given that Fadil is the most productive historian of our Cause
(whatever you feel about the merits of his work, he produced nearly
9,000 pages of text on history of the Cause), then its befitting that
such a memorial lecture, much like Balyuzi lectures at ABS, be
inaugurated in his honor.
OK, that was my last word about the man, from now on I will focus only
on his work, still hoping that others will join the discussion ...
As you recall we begin outlining contents of Zuhuru l-Haqq, vol. 3,
(ZH-3) and decided to divide its contents into seven categories, the
first being the Writings of the Bab quoted in that volume and outlined
these Writings which appear in the first quarter of the book. Now I
like to pick up where I left unfinished.
P139-40: Persian, 0.4 pages, excerpt from Dala'il-i Sab'ih (the
Seven Proofs) which refers to Mulla Husayn. (Notes: you will also
find this quoted on page 23, note 5, of the Dawn-breakers). My own
provisional translation follows: "You are acquainted with him who
believed first, [Mulla Husayn]. You know that the majority of the
learned Shaykhi and the Siyyidiyyih and other sects admired his
knowledge and virtues. When he came to Isfahan the urchins of the
town cried out as he passed, "ragged student has arrived on behalf of
the Siyyid [Kazim-i Rashti]!" But this man by his proofs and
arguments convinced the great scholar of that land by the name of
Muhammad-Baqir! Truly that is one of the proofs of this
Manifestation, for after the death of the Siyyid, may God's exaltation
be upon him in paradise, this personage went to see most of the
doctors and found Truth only with the Master of Truth [the Bab]. It
was then that he attained the destiny which had been determined for
him. In truth the people from the beginning until the end, till the
Day of Resurrection, envy him. And who then can accuse this
master-mind of mental weakness and infidelity?"
P140: Arabic, 0.8 page, an extract about Mulla Husayn where his
virtues are extolled and the Bab says unto the people of the world
that they must fear God and believe in Him, much as has Mulla Husayn.
P140-2: Arabic, 2 pages, the opening paragraphs of a Tablet of
Visitation revealed in Mulla Husayn's honor. (Note: I know from
elsewhere that this Tablet of Visitation is 300 pages long and only
recently was relocated.)
(P142: Persian and Arabic, two excerpts by Baha'u'llah about Mulla
Husayn)
P149-50: Arabic, 1.4 pages, Tablet addressed to Mulla Sadiq-i
Khurasani revealed in Bushihr where specific instructions are given
him about his proclamation of the new Day in Shiraz.
P150-51: Arabic, 0.6 pages, a prayer revealed in honor of Mulla Sadiq
where the Bab says he deserves the rewards of a 1000 martyrs.
P164-66: Arabic, 2 pages, a Tablet addressed to Mulla Shaykh Ali
Turshizi (`Azim), revealed towards the end of Mah-Ku period, where the
Bab raises the call of Qa'imiyyat through `Azim. (This Tablet is of
fundamental importance in understanding the station of the Bab and
must be translated someday soon.)
P169: Arabic, 0.3 pages, a portion of a Tablet addressed to Hajji
Mirza Hasan-i Mashhadi.
P173: Arabic, 0.2 pages, a portion of a Tablet addressed to Mulla
Abdu'l-Khaliq Yazdi
(P73-74: Persian, 0.3 pages, a portion of Tablet of Baha'u'llah where
he recalls how Mulla Abdu'l-Khaliq recanted his faith on seeing the
Bab's claim to Qa'imiyyat)
P223-25: Persian, 2.5 pages, a Tablet of the Bab addressed to His
own family where He outlines His own stations, provides conclusive
proofs based on Qur'anic and Hadith prophecies, draws parallels
between Himself and Muhammad and finally says those who believe in Him
are considered denizens of paradise with the rest as dwellers of hell.
Another very important Tablet begging to be translated.
P231-32: Arabic, 0.2 pages, a portion of Tablet of Visitation for
the shrine of Shah Abdu'l-Azim (located in the southern portion of
Tihran). The Bab expresses His wish to be buried in the vicinity of
this shrine, near Tihran, under the shadow of His "Beloved". (A wish
which came through as Baha'u'llah instructed His remains buried in a
wall there for a period of time, prior to eventual move to Haifa.)
P235: Arabic, 0.3 pages, a portion of an early Tablet where the Bab
instruct His followers to gather in Iraq (Kufih) after His return from
pilgrimage.
P243: Persian, 0.1 pages, regarding Vahid-i Darabi and Siyyid Javad
Karbali, He states: "In the belief of any believer nonfulfillment
(bada`) is possible, except in the certitude of Vahid-i Akbar (Siyyid
Yahya) and Siyyid Javad-i Karbali nonfulfillment is not possible."
(That is, anyone but these two can loss faith -- a statement worthy of
much pondering.)
P244: Arabic, 0.1 pages, addressed to Siyyid Javad-i Karbala'i where
he is referred to as one of the Witnesses.
P255(footnote): Arabic, 0.1 pages, addressed to Mulla Muhammad-Baqir,
one of the Letters, about the importance of acquisition of sciences
and knowledge.
P266: Arabic, 2 pages, the first page is a reprint of the Bab's
handwriting prior to His Declaration, and the second is a reprint of
His well-known Tablet on Qa'imiyyat.
P265: Arabic, 0.4 pages, a prayer where He laments the deeds of
Husayn-Khan the governor of Shiraz.
P268-69: Arabic, 0.5 pages, a prayer in which He recalls some of the
misdeeds towards Him in the early days after His Declaration and how
people due to their ego turned away from Him.
P269-70: Arabic, 1 page, another prayer where he laments on the
perversity of people, their lack of acceptance and events in the early
days of Shiraz.
(to be continued)
lovingly, ahang.
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:27:19 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Zuhuru'l-Haqq
Much love and many thanks to Ahang for providing us with information on the
background and content of Fadil-i Mazandarani's Zuhur al-Haqq. Indeed, it is
an enormous blessing to have Ahang with us, and to have him so generously
share his deep knowledge of Baha'i history and literature with us. We must
all be grateful.
As I understand from Roy Mottahedeh, the policy of calling for the
collection of local Baha'i histories among the believers in Iran was actually
initiated by the Greatest Holy Leaf during her brief tenure as the
acting-Head of the Baha'i Faith after the passing of 'Abdu'l-Baha and during
Shoghi Effendi's retirement to Europe. According to Roy, her policy was
aimed at holding things together in the Iranian community after the traumatic
loss of the Master. Of course, this policy was continued and extended by the
Guardian.
In addition, according to Roy, the Greatest Holy Leaf seems to have
called for a census of the Baha'is in Iran at the same time. He told me that
he had seen the documents in Haifa, and that during the early 1920s, the
census yielded a number of 500,000 Baha'is in Iran. Yes, half a million!
Since there are now only 300,000 or so, this is extremely suggestive for the
recent history of the Faith in Iran.
Perhaps the publication of Zuhur al-Haqq may even shed some light on
this.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:38:22 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Review / Provisional Translations
Jonah:
Thank you very much for your question and for your kind words about
Kalimat Press. You are much appreciated here.
The translations of the writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah that are
found in Steve Lambden's essay in the fourth volume of the STUDIES series are
not provisional. They were all submitted to the World Center for approval,
and they were corrected and approved. So, this is an approved (authorized?)
translation, rather than a provisional one. That is how it got through
review.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 00:15:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: Member1700@aol.com
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: Review / Provisional Translations
AHA! Now I understand. So all of the translations that Lambden publishes
in his journal have also been "approved" the same way? The only
"provisional translations" we ever see in print are the ones posted on
Talisman? I notice that Chris used an ingenious device for translating in
his book: he called it a "paraphrase" which, I assume from reading the
_Revelation_ series et al., is accepted? How close of a "paraphrase"
would be accepted, if I may be so bold? ;-)
Thanks for your answers.
-Jonah
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 01:23:47 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Evolution
It does seem odd to me that Baha'is would insist on limiting 'Abdu'l-Baha's
remarks on evolution to a short scientific essay, while ignoring their much
more profound theological content. After all, as a scientific treatise, the
chapter in Some Answered Questions is not very interesting or helpful. As a
statement of morality and belief and social solidarity (as John has pointed
out) it is startling in its modernity and deep insight.
Not only should 'Abdu'l-Baha's remarks be understood in the light of
Islamic philosophy (again our thanks to John), but also in the light of the
popular ideas about evolution that were circulating in the West around the
turn of the century. That is, we must take into account where the question
was coming from--as well as where the answer was coming from.
In particular, I would point to the (false) notion that was then popular
that all animals could be ordered in some evolutionary hierarchy, with one
descended from another. So that men must be descended from chimpanzees, who
are descended from lower apes, and so forth. People literally believed that
human beings must be descended from monkeys as we know them. And there was
much made of trying to find the "missing link," that intermediate form
between the two species, etc. In this context, 'Abdu'l-Baha's statement
that man has always been man makes a great deal of scientific sense (that is,
that man has his own seperate line of evolutionary development)--not back to
the first amoeba, of course, but our ancestors were not chimpanzees, though
obviously we share common ancestors with them.
Warmest,
Tony
Tony
=END=
[end of 12/17/95
emails received 12/18/95
----------------------------------------------------------
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 07:33:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: List Rule #11
Since it appears that a biography is a requirement for subscribers, I'm
emerging yet again from lurk mode to identify myself:
My name is Leigh Droege; I've been a Baha{'i since 1971 (declared during
a fit of teenage idealism and it stuck). Was born on Chicago's North
{Shore & grew up there, but spent most of my adult life in Minnesota before
deciding the cold was turning me homicidal. Moved to Florida last month.
Scholarly qualifications: none whatsoever. I'm a college dropout (majored
in Anthropology, minored in Geology) and have a tech school degree in PC
repair and network administration. {Main interests and hobbies: Fantasy/SF
books & games, music (any style, any culture), natural sciences, fiddling
with obsolete computers (I'm still stubbornly using an Apple IIGS, although
I've got access to a PowerMac and an IBM Aptiva), and lurking in this list
(my newest obsession ). I've written _one_ article (unpublished, a
slightly ill-tempered review of a book attacking the Baha'i Faith from the
perspective of a Christian fundamentalist). Otherwise I've made no useful
contributions to society, although I'm hoping some of my music might
someday be found palatable.
A note: I saw that my previous post contained garbage characters. Those
were not typos; they're due to a very dirty phone line, which I hope to
remedy soon (hope being the operative word). I'm assuming this post will
be ssimilarly blessed, so apologies in advance.
{
Leigh
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Zuhur'l-Haqq and Encyclopedia
To: rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com (Ahang Rabbani)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 3:48:35 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Ahang writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^^
This makes Shoghi Effendi all upset with Zuhuru'l-Haqq as he
didn't like anything that deviated by a dot from the Dawnbreakers.
So on 15 September 1932, he writes (my inadequate translation):
"Immediately organize a special committee to investigate,
reorganize and bring into conformity Jinab-i Fadil's history
with that of Nabil's history [the Dawnbreakers]. Of this
task and grave responsibility, no delay is permitted, and
utmost effort must be diligently exerted."
Poor Fadil. After a letter like this from the Guardian, well,
his goose was cooked.
____________
RESPONSE
In Christian terms, this endeavor would be called a *Gospel Harmony*.
Considering that the *Dawnbreakers* is the Baha'i Gospel, the beloved
Guardian's concern makes sense.
The original Nabil and the *Dawnbreakers* and *Baha'u'llah, the King
of Glory* are the Synoptic Gospels. *Zuhur al-Haqq* is the Gospel of John.
Salmani and the other memoirs (Eric, can you repost Juan's description of
them?) is the Gospel of Thomas.
But the Dawnbreakers also had what would appear to be a critical
apparatus: its French and English footnotes. With this in mind, I have two
possibly *safe* uses of Zuhur al-Haqq to propose:
(1) Volume 5 (and possibly most of Vol. 4) should not be bound
by the Guardian's directive which Ahang translated, for the simple reason
that there is no *Dawnbreakers* covering Baha'u'llah's ministry requiring
harmonization.
(Note that I am pressing the very same distinction as Ahang in
differentiating between the Guardian's translation (and extensively
reworking) of Nabil in the *Dawnbreakers*, as distinct from Nabil's
manuscript itself.)
Therefore, unless Balyuzi's masterpiece, *Baha'u'llah, the King of
Glory* has the same status as the Dawbreakers (which I doubt), there
should be no restriction in the use of Zuhur al-Haqq for writing on
Baha'u'llah's life and work.
Indeed, considering the Guardian's probable reasons for NOT
translating the second half of Nabil, it may even be that ZH is superior
to the latter half of Nabil. Either way, use of ZH for research on
Baha'u'llah is not constrained by the directive in question (IMHO).
(2) As to Fadil's Babi material, at the very least, it ought
to enjoy the same status as the Footnotes to the Dawnbreakers. Some of
those footnotes were in French. These were translated into English. Why
not do the same with Vol. 3 of ZH?
Having said that, I look forward to Ahang's detailed description
of Vol. 4 of ZH. BTW, I agree completely with John Walbridge's reasons for
justifying the parallel between Zuhur al-Haqq and the Baha'i Encyclopedia
Project.
Now, Ahang, you were circumspect in not wishing to divulge any
more details regarding the persons and politics involved. But you have not
given a single example of where Fadil and Nabil disagree. Could you cite
an example? What about Zanjan?
One final comment: Surely Fadil has material that is supplemental
to Nabil. If so, what restrictions could there possibly be on Fadil's
material that is not covered by Nabil? As for Baha'u'llah, doesn't Nabil's
narrative contain miracle stories, whereas Fadil's chroncicles do not?
-- Christopher Buck
(Patiently waiting for Ishraq-Khavari's
lecture on the Tablet of the Holy Mariner!).
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 00:35:54 PST
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
To: talisman@indiana.edu
On Mon, 18 Dec 1995 16:09:13 +1200 Robert Johnston wrote:
>To state that God exists is not an immoderate statement. To state
that MY
>GOD exists and yours doesn't is immoderate. That that is just was
these
>Darwinists and fundamentalists are doing.
>
>I not longer expect that what I write will have anymore influence
than has
>a snowball in hell. But it seems that, like the sparrow, I am
destined to
>sit on the wire and sing, for no apparently good reason...
>
>Robert.
>
>
>
Really Robert!
This "poor misunderstood messenger" position doesn't call forth a lot
of sympathy from me and feels vaguely like an accusation that your
thoughts are not being fairly considered.
Speaking for my self, I do listen to your "vendor's song," but in
this issue, I'm not buying.
Also, the sparrow's reasons for singing vary. Sometimes the best
reason for singing is because you have a song-o!
Finally, these godless Darwinists you've been talking to really
represent only a portion of the Darwinists in the world, many of whom
imagine God is ways you might find acceptable.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 12/18/95
Time: 00:35:54
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:18:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: Member1700@aol.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Zuhuru'l-Haqq
On Sun, 17 Dec 1995 Member1700@aol.com wrote:
> In addition, according to Roy, the Greatest Holy Leaf seems to have
> called for a census of the Baha'is in Iran at the same time. He told me that
> he had seen the documents in Haifa, and that during the early 1920s, the
> census yielded a number of 500,000 Baha'is in Iran. Yes, half a million!
> Since there are now only 300,000 or so, this is extremely suggestive for the
> recent history of the Faith in Iran.
I think this was undertaken by the Guardian, not the Greatest Holy Leaf.
That's what Roy Mottahedeh told me, and I know that Shoghi Effendi
undertook such a census in the West, because the lists that were compiled
for him are in the US Baha'i Archives.
Richard
=END=
Sub: ... no subject ...
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:08:04 +0000 (MULTINET_TIMEZONE)
From: maeissin@ichange.com (Michael Eissinger)
To: jwinters@epas.utoronto.ca
Cc: Member1700@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Sorry about the length, but this might help clear up this question.
This is a copy of a letter posted by Robert Stockman, earlier on one of
the NewsGroups...
26 November 1994
The questions which you put to Mr. XXXXXXXXXXXX on 23 August 1994 were
submitted by him to the Universal House of Justice, and were in turn
referred
to the Research Department for its comments on issues which had already
been
determined in the past by the House of Justice. The Research
Department's
memorandum dated 26 November is enclosed, and it is hoped that its
contents and
the extracts attached to it will help to clarify some of the points
which you
raised.
In response to your concerns about a category of "approved"
translators
and the potential inequities to which this might lead, the House of
Justice
wishes you to know that it does not have such a list of translators who
are
exempt from the requirement of submitting their provisional translations
to the
Baha'i World Centre for approval prior to publication. All individuals
must
continue to submit their provisional translations to the World Centre
for
approval. In making their submissions, they are free to request
permission to
publish specific provisional translations, and these will be considered
on a
case by case basis.
At this time the House of Justice is giving consideration to
decentralizing, to the extent advisable and feasible, the
responsibilities
for revising existing translations or preparing new translations of
hitherto
untranslated texts. It is certainly not the intention of the House of
Justice
to discourage Baha'i scholarship among the believers; on the contrary it
attaches great importance to this area of activity. The existing
policies are,
by their very nature, temporary, and should be viewed as such by Baha'i
scholars.
Your recommendation that a translation reviewing committee, made up
of
translators whose work is known to the House of Justice, be formed under
the
auspices of the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, was
not
approved.
The House of Justice assures you of its prayers for the success of
your
endeavours in discharging your important responsibilities.
With loving Baha'i greetings,
For Department of the Secretariat
Enclosure with attachment
M E M O R A N D U M
To: The Universal House of Justice Date: 26 November
1994
From: Research Department
Policy Concerning Provisional Translations
The Research Department has studied the electronic mail messages
dated
23 August 1994 and 14 September 1994 from XXXXXXXXXXXXX to XXXXXXXXXXX,
who
conveyed them to the Universal House of Justice at XXXXXXXXXXXX's
request.
XXXXXXXXXXX enquires about the current policies and procedures
concerning the
publication of new translations in the English language.
He sets out his understanding of the present situation as follows:
...if a Baha'i scholar writes an article about some aspect of the
Baha'i
Faith he cannot translate a passage from the untranslated writings
into
English and publish it without first sending the translation to the
Universal House of Justice for approval. Presumably it is possible
for
the scholar to paraphrase the passage; he might even translate
phrases and
collections of words, but not put quotation marks around them,
thereby
disguising the fact that they are a translation. But it is not
permissible to translate even a few words within quotation marks,
even if
the footnote states the translation is a provisional one by the
author.
XXXXXXXXXXX also calls attention to recent decisions of the
Universal
House of Justice permitting XXXXXXXXXX and others to publish provisional
translations. He cites a memorandum dated 8 September 1991, written on
behalf
of the House of Justice, which states:
The first question ... concerns the use of provisional (and
therefore
unreviewed) translations of the Baha'i Writings that appeared in an
article by XXXXXXXXXX. We have been asked to say that the policy
of the
House of Justice in this matter has not changed and that
translations into
English, and revisions of earlier translations into that language,
must be
checked at the World Centre and officially approved before
publication.
There have been, however, occasions when the House of Justice has
permitted the publication of provisional translations made by
individuals
whose work is known to it. In these cases the translations usually
appear
in scholarly or other publications of limited distribution and are
not
likely to be used as a basis for translations into other languages.
Such
usage does not alter the general policy as stated above.
In light of the foregoing, XXXXXXXXXXX expresses disquiet that perhaps
two
categories of scholars are being created -- those whose translations
need to be
submitted to the World Centre for approval and those who are exempt from
this
requirement. He asks whether, in fact, there is a list of "approved"
Baha'i
translators and raises a number of questions about its membership and
the
practical implications of having such a list, e.g., the possibility that
the
National Spiritual Assembly of the United States might appoint a
translation
reviewing committee which could, potentially, serve to speed up review,
give
translators new opportunities to gain experience and encourage a larger
volume
of new translations.
Current Policies
We attach a compilation of extracts from communications written by
and on
behalf of the House of Justice relating to the publication of new
translations
from which the following facts emerge:
- An "authorized" translation is defined as a translation "approved
by one
or more translation committees appointed by the House of Justice".
Such
a translation may be improved or amended in the future [10].
- "Keen and capable scholars" are not prohibited from translating
passages
from the Sacred Writings [4].
- The policy calling for the submission of new translations into
English
to the Universal House of Justice for approval was first
articulated in
the memorandum on Baha'i publishing in 1971 (extract [1]). It has
been
reiterated on a number of occasions (extracts [3], [4], [5], [8],
[9]).
- Currently, the World Centre assumes responsibility for:
- "the careful checking and approval of translations made into
English
from the original Writings". This policy is of importance
since
"translations into most other languages should be based on the
approved English texts and not be made directly and solely
from the
original texts". [4] and [5]
- deciding "what Works of Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha are to be
translated when the time is ripe" [5], and for establishing a
priority for their translation [4] and [5]
- assessing the timeliness, the wisdom, and the potential impact
"on
the non-Baha'i public" of releasing translations on certain
subjects
[4]
- Given the pressure of work of the Translation Committee at the
World
Centre, the Universal House of Justice has made the following
provisions
which can apply in the absence of an approved translation:
- provisional translations of passages can be prepared to assist
individuals in their study, but they should not be published
"unless they are checked and approved by the World Centre" [5]
- an author may replace "unauthorized translations" with
"general
descriptions of [the] contents" of the passages [6]
- authors may "paraphrase the passages" they wish to include in
their
manuscripts [8]
- While not altering the "general policy", there have been occasions
when
the Universal House of Justice has "permitted the publication of
provisional translations made by individuals whose work is known to
it"
[9]. This provision appears to operate under the following
circumstances:
- when the author is known to be competent, "there is no
objection
in principle" to the publication of unauthorized translations
"if
clearly identified as provisional in character" [7]
- "the translations usually appear in scholarly or other
publications
of limited distribution" [9]
- the translations "are not likely to be used as a basis for
translations into other languages" [9]
Application of the Policies
While it is very difficult to piece together a coherent picture of
the
application of the policies concerning the publication of new
translations in
the English language, we offer the following comment based on material
provided
by the Master Reference File and a perusal of a number of Baha'i
journals and
publications.
- The National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, its
Publishing
Trust, and individual American believers appear to have received
the most
detailed guidance from the Universal House of Justice about the
need to
submit new translations for approval prior to publication.
- Publishing Trusts and other Baha'i publishers submit new
translations for
approval prior to publication.
- In the United Kingdom, the "Baha'i Studies Bulletin", which first
appeared
in 1982, regularly features provisional translations by such
individuals
as XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX,
XXXXXXXXXX,
XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX, and XXXXXXXXXX.
Originally designed as a channel for communication between Baha'is
interested in the scholarly study of the Faith, this journal was
produced
in mimeographed form. It appeared infrequently and had a very
limited
circulation. Since 1991, the "Baha'i Studies Bulletin" has become
more
professional in appearance and it is published on a more regular
schedule.
No information is available about the number of people who
subscribe to
it.
To date, the Research Department has not been able to locate any
communications between the Universal House of Justice and the
National
Spiritual Assembly of the United Kingdom or the editors of the
"Baha'i
Studies Bulletin" concerning the publication of provisional
translations
in this journal. It is clear, however, that some of those whose
translations were published in the "Bulletin" in the early 1980s
were
aware of the need to submit their translations to the World Centre
for
approval and they complied with this requirement for publications
other
than the "Bulletin".
It is possible that, from the outset, the "Baha'i Studies Bulletin"
was
not regarded as a publication, but rather as a means for sharing
notes and
manuscripts between friends and scholars.
- "The Journal of Baha'i Studies" published in Canada includes
provisional
translations made either by the author of an article or someone
else.
Such translations are identified as "provisional", often in a
footnote.
It is interesting to observe that some of these provisional
translations
have been taken from the "Baha'i Studies Bulletin".
- With regard to the statement written on behalf of the Universal
House of
Justice to the effect that "there have been ... occasions when the
House
of Justice has permitted the publication of provisional
translations made
by individuals whose work is known to it" [9]: Based on the
materials
we had assembled, apart from the situation of XXXXXXXXXX, which was
specifically mentioned by the House of Justice, we have been
unsuccessful
in our attempts to identify other such "occasions".
- With regard to the case of XXXXXXXXXX, the permission granted by
the
House of Justice does not appear to be a blanket permission, but
rather
pertains to particular translations XXXXXXXXXX wanted to use in his
paper.
Please refer to extract [7] in the attached compilation.
- We have not been able to identify a list of "approved" translators
who are
exempted from the requirement of submitting their translations to
the
World Centre for approval prior to publication.
Attachment
POLICIES AND PROCEDURES CONCERNING THE PUBLICATION OF TRANSLATIONS
Extracts from Communications Written by and on Behalf of
the Universal House of Justice
As regards English, the beloved Guardian's translations are
obviously the
most authentic and should be used. If, for some particular reason, a
Baha'i
author, when quoting a passage of the Sacred Text which has been
rendered into
English by the Guardian, wishes to use a translation other than that
made by
the beloved Guardian, his request may be referred to the Universal House
of
Justice. Passages from the Sacred Text not translated by Shoghi
Effendi, but
already in English and published with approval, may be used. If an
author
wishes to make his own translation of a passage not already translated
by
Shoghi Effendi, the new translation may be submitted to the Universal
House of
Justice for approval.
(Ridvan 1971, from a memorandum by the Universal House of
Justice on
Baha'i publishing addressed to "National Spiritual Assemblies
and
all those concerned with the production of Baha'i
publications")[1]
There is definitely a gray area between publication on the one hand
and
the sharing of notes and manuscripts between friends and fellow-scholars
on the
other. Recognizing this distinction the House of Justice has made
several
decisions over the years which have a bearing on your question.
1. It has been decided that doctoral theses and similar treatises
submitted to institutions of learning for the obtaining of a
degree
are not subject to Baha'i review unless they are to be
published
more widely than is required for the degree in question....
(11 May 1982, from a letter written on behalf of the Universal
House
of Justice to an individual believer)
[2]
The Universal House of Justice has no objection in principle to
your
Trust's publishing translations of previously untranslated Tablets, but
it
would like to know which Tablets or passages are being considered for
publication.
As to approval of the translations, Mr. ... is in frequent contact
with
the World Centre and is familiar with the fact that whenever he wishes
to have
any of his translations published he should submit them to the World
Centre for
checking.
(25 July 1982, written on behalf of the Universal House of
Justice
to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States)
[3]
As you know, the World Centre is responsible for the careful
checking and
approval of translations made into English from the original Writings.
The
House of Justice feels that, in the present circumstances, the time has
not yet
come to relinquish this responsibility or to delegate it to a committee
outside
the Holy Land. This is of particular significance as it is the current
policy
of the House of Justice that translations into most other languages
should be
based on the approved English texts and not be made directly and solely
from
the original texts.
The Publishing Trust will readily realize that this process of
approval of
translations is very time-consuming. For your information, we have been
asked
to point out that there are several Tablets which have already been
rendered
into English by competent translators, yet their approval has had to be
postponed until a future time, notwithstanding the fact that their
contents can
be extremely useful to the friends everywhere, as they include specific
Tablets
revealed by Baha'u'llah or `Abdu'l-Baha suitable for devotional readings
at
Baha'i Holy Days and anniversaries. The little time, therefore, that
can be
spared at the World Centre for approval of translations of Sacred Texts
into
English should primarily be devoted to projects which would be of direct
benefit to the believers or promote the teaching work....
Furthermore, as you are well aware, the enemies of the Faith would
use any
pretext to attack the Baha'i community and discredit its Founders or its
teachings. It is therefore not wise at this time to undertake
large-scale
projects to publish the Writings of Baha'u'llah, or those of the Bab and
`Abdu'l-Baha, without carefully assessing the effect of such
publications on
the non-Baha'i public.... This, of course, does not mean that such keen
and
capable scholars as Mr. ... should be prohibited from translating
passages from
the Sacred Writings or, indeed, entire Tablets, provided this is done
with
discrimination and, possibly, as indicated in the letter of your
Publishing
Trust dated 21 June, undertaken in stages with adequate annotations for
reproduction in, or incorporation in articles for, the "World Order"
magazine.
Such a procedure would avoid placing too much pressure on the World
Centre at
this time.
(19 December 1982, written on behalf of the Universal House of
Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United
States)[4]
The decision on what Works of Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha are to
be
translated when the time is ripe is taken by the Universal House of
Justice....
As you will appreciate, the volume of the Sacred Writings is far greater
than can possibly be translated at the present time; therefore the House
of
Justice has to concentrate on obtaining translations of those texts that
are of
immediate relevance to the work of the Cause at this stage of its
development.
If any of your Iranian friends have Tablets in Persian of which you do
not have
a translation, there would be no objection to your having them give you
a
provisional translation of any passages which particularly interest you.
Such
translations should not be published, however, unless they are checked
and
approved by the World Centre, since translations into English form the
basis
for translations into most other languages and it is vital for them to
be as
accurately and beautifully made as possible.
(19 October 1983, written on behalf of the Universal House of
Justice to an individual believer)
[5]
EDITED TEXTS OF TWO TABLETS ARE NOT PARAPHRASES, BUT UNAUTHORIZED
TRANSLATIONS.
OWING PRESSURE WORK HERE, SUGGEST REPLACE THESE PASSAGES WITH
GENERAL
DESCRIPTIONS OF CONTENTS....
(23 August 1988, telex from the Universal House of Justice to
a
publisher)
[6]
XXXXXXXXXX has requested confirmation on the acceptability of the the
publication of his provisional translations in the paper before you on
Matter.
Although these extracts cannot be reviewed here for the present, there
is no
objection in principle, given the competence of the author, to their use
if
clearly identified as provisional in character.
(21 November 1990, written on behalf of the Universal House of
Justice to the Association for Baha'i Studies, Canada)
[7]
It is noted that you are hoping to include English excerpts from
two
Tablets revealed by Baha'u'llah of which authorized translations are not
available. In view of pressures of work on the Translation Committee at
the
World Centre, it is regretted that it would not be possible for your
translations of extracts from the Writings of Baha'u'llah to be reviewed
and
approved by that Committee. It is suggested, therefore, that you do
what other
authors have done in similar cases, namely, paraphrase the passages
which you
wish to include in your manuscript.
(5 December 1990, written on behalf of the Universal House of
Justice to an individual believer)
[8]
The first question ... concerns the use of provisional (and
therefore
unreviewed) translations of the Baha'i Writings that appeared in an
article by
XXXXXXXXXX. We have been asked to say that the policy of the House of
Justice
in this matter has not changed and that translations into English, and
revisions of earlier translations in that language, must be checked at
the
World Centre and officially approved before publication. There have
been,
however, occasions when the House of Justice has permitted the
publication of
provisional translations made by individuals whose work is known to it.
In
these cases the translations usually appear in scholarly or other
publications
of limited distribution and are not likely to be used as a basis for
transla-
tions into other languages. Such usage does not alter the general
policy as
stated above.
(8 September 1991, from a memorandum written on behalf of the
Universal House of Justice to an individual believer)
[9]
With reference to your present request for clarification of the
difference in the use of "authorized" and "provisional" when describing
translations, we are to convey the following.
When a translation is approved by one or more translation
committees
appointed by the House of Justice, the translation is regarded as
authorized.
This does not mean it is final, as improvements or amendments can always
be
made in the future. In the work of translation from the original text
into
English, the following statement was made by Shoghi Effendi when he
released
the text of his translation of "The Kitab-i-Iqan":
This is one more attempt to introduce to the West, in language
however inadequate, this book of unsurpassed pre-eminence among the
writings of the Author of the Baha'i Revelation. The hope is that
it may assist others in their efforts to approach what must always
be regarded as the unattainable goal -- a befitting rendering of
Baha'u'llah's matchless utterance.
(11 February 1992, written on behalf of the Universal House of
Justice to an individual believer)
[10]
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: 90s pub stats
To: "Stockman, Robert"
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 9:53:30 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to Stockman, Robert:
>
>
> Fascinating statistics. But they need to be normalized to
> English-language membership to be useful.
OCLC is an international database with works in dozens of
languages. While English-language ephemera (e.g. pamphlets) may be
overrepresented compared to non-English works, for serious
books, especially contemporary ones, it is safe to assume that
at least one makes it into the collection of an OCLC library.
I checked the Spanish language publications to see whether or
not the situation was comparable; it was. Will look into other
languages but compare fewer traditions.
The Baha'is probably have
> about 250,000 English language speakers worldwide; the Mormons, five
> million (4.5 million of the some 8 million Mormons woldwide live in
> the U.S.); the Adventists, a million or so (there are 750,000 Seventh
> Day Adventists in the US alone). Spiritualism is a vaguely defined
> movement and I don't know what the estimates for membership are, but
> it is also a subject of a lot of popular and scholarly literature.
> The Christian Scientists probably have about twice the
> English-speaking membership of the Faith worldwide, so their numbers
> are comparable.
>
> It is not clear to me that one can conclude much about the impact of
> prepublication review from the statistics below.
It's more a reflection of the overall literary productivity of
the Faith (including works by outsiders about it), which has
many causes, one of which is presumably the review situation.
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 09:07:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- NSA's objections
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Chris Buck is right, I've not given examples as to what the
Iranian NSA objected to in ZH-3; I do so now.
But first a comment: during the past day or two, its been
brought to my attention, from an unimpeachable source, that
actually my comment that the Guardian didn't wish "a dot of
deviation from the Dawn-breakers" is not correct and that he was
fully aware of the limitations of this book and encouraged
alternative versions. This is fine. In good faith I accept
this. (And I'm not saying so as taqqiyyih). This would be
consistent with my view of the Guardian as a very progressive,
liberal mind.
However, the burden of proof for this claim is now with those
that hold such views that the beloved Guardian did not object to
deviations from the Dawn-breakers. I have posted the *only*
letter of the Guardian that I know on this subject, and I'm sure
there are *many* more. So, for now, I'm standing by my story,
but would love nothing more than being proved wrong. I say that
from the depth of my heart.
The letter that I quoted is dated 15 Sept 1932. Its an early
letter. The Iranian NSA's public letter is 11 Jalal 107 BE
(1951) -- some 2 decades later. But they quote only this one
letter of the Guardian. I'm sure that there had been *many* more
communications form Shoghi Effendi during these 19 years. Why
didn't the Iranian NSA quote them? Why did they base their
entire public case on this single early letter of the Guardian?
Based on this evidence, am I to believe that the Guardian's
position actually did not change and that in fact he did not like
deviations from the Dawn-breakers? That's going to be my
position for now, pending further evidence to the contrary.
Now, back to NSA's letter where they objected to information in
ZH-3 which deviated from the Dawn-breakers. What follows is my
summary translation of this open letter: (Note: the Iranian NSA
used the Arabic translation of the Dawn-breakers as their base of
comparison, so all the page numbers to DBA means "Dawn-breakers
Arabic")
1. On page 16 of ZH-3, its stated that among the places where
the Bab stayed is the house of Muhammad-Big Chaparchi. But on
page 187 of DBA it is stated that near Tabriz, Muhammad-Big
handed over the Bab to the Tabriz authorities.
2. On page 17 of ZH-3, its stated that the Bab was bastinadoed
at the hand of Shaykhu'l-Islam at courtyard of his house. But on
page 295 of DBA its stated that this beating took place in his
inner court, namaz-khanih, and a picture of this location is also
provided on on page 254 of DBA and 318 of English original.
3. At the end of page 16 and beginning of page 17 of ZH-3, it is
stated as follows: "And the mutilated body of that martyr,
Sulyman-Khan, was hidden on at a location outside of Tihran near
the shrine of Shah Abdu'l-Azim". But on page 496 of DBA its
written that it was taken to shrine of Imam-zadih Hasan.
4. From line 11 to 16 of page 30 of ZH-3 is in contradiction
with the Dawn-breakers. [ahang: In these lines Fadil is quoting
from the history of Haj Mu'inu's-Saltanih where Haj Mu'in, based
on the observation of those present states, that at the second
firing on the Bab, on His day of martyrdom, again the ropes were
torn and both the mutilated body of the Bab and still barely
alive body of Anis fell to the ground and that Anis crawled over
to the Bab and in his last breath uttered: "Are you well please
with me, my Master?"]
5. On beginning of page 63 of ZH-3, Mulla Mihdi Khu'y is
referred to as a Letter of the Living, whereas he is not counted
as such.
6. On page 69 of ZH-3, towards the end of page, it is written:
"On the question of condition of prison, the situation of Mah-Ku,
and the story of Ali-Khan was discussed in the previous volume
[ZH-2]. It was at the prison of Mah-Ku where the call of
Qa'imiyyat was raised and a new shariyyat commenced through
revelation of the Persian and Arabic Bayans." However, in the
Dawn-breakers it is written that when they brought the Bab to
Tabriz for His trial, outside of the city gate, He first
announced His Qa'immiyyat to Azim and then later at the trail
repeated this Call.
7. Towards the end of page 75 of ZH-3 it is written that
Nawruz-Ali carried the Tablet of the Bab addressed Hajji
Sulyman-Khan from Zanjan to him. But in the Dawn-breakers the
carrier of this Tablet is Mulla Iskandar.
8. On page 93 of ZH-3, it was written that the daughter of
Muhammad-Shah was planned for the marriage with the Bab. But in
page 167 of DBA, it is the sister of Muhammad-Shah.
9. On page 98 of ZH-3, is stated that Mirza Muhammad-Ali Nahry
had no child and hence wished for one, where the Bab offered him
some of His food. But in the Dawn-breakers it is stated that
Mirza Ibrahim made such a request of the Bab on behalf of his
brother Mirza Muhammad-Ali, and that the latter was not even at
the gathering.
10. On page 104, line 7 and 8, of ZH-3, as the text also notes,
there is a deviation between the number of reported martyrs of
Isfahan.
11. On page 109, line 10, of ZH-3, the length of the stay of the
friends at Badasht is recorded as 10 days, whereas in the
Dawn-breakers its 22 days.
Ahang again: I'm getting very depressed with this translation
and I don't want to continue. The NSA letter has a total of 16
pages where they outline 37 such deviations, of which the first
11 are listed above and the remaining 26 are very similar. It
concludes with a short letter by Fadil in which he states his
consent and askes the readers of ZH-3 to make these 37
"corrections". In the words of a friend, reading Fadil's
retraction, makes one ashamed to be a Baha'i.
I'm going to leave it to your judgment whether these "deviations"
are worthy of ruining the reputation of Fadil-i Mazandarani and
burying the Zuhuru'l-Haqq project.
ahang.
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 11:19:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Evolution & SAQ
I have Keven Brown's permission to post a comment he recently made about
`Abdu'l-Baha's statement that the human "species" always existed.
Keven and I agree that by "species" he did not intend the modern
biological concept. Rather, he meant the sublunar reflected `species'
(naw`) governed by the Platonic Form or Idea of humanity.
I have suggested before that the Master believed that the Platonic Form or
Idea of humanity is reflected in whatever actually-existing earthly species
has attained the most complex neurological development at any one time.
Its specific biological form is irrelevant. Clearly, all this is a sort
of Neoplatonic theology, a means of making Jabarut-level, right-brain
sense of evolution; it is not Nasut-level, left-brain science.
(Keven Brown is, incidentally, a Baha'i Ph.D. student in Near Eastern
Languages and Cultures at UCLA, working with Amin Banani and Hossein Ziai
on Islamic philosophy.)
Of course, all this is only put forward tentatively and awaits the
imprimatur of our foremost living Baha'i philosopher and Suhrawardi expert,
John Walbridge.
On Sat, 16 Dec 1995 Keven19@aol.com wrote:
I feel relatively
> sure that 'Abdu'l-Baha does not mean "species" in this purely nominal sense,
> and is applying it in a special way to the same thing that Suhrawardi called
> rabb-i naw' and rabb-i sanam, and which he and his commentators understood as
> the Platonic Form. Since these are eternal, in a certain sense their
> reflections or shadows also have to be eternal, i. e. the individual members
> of species are generated wherever and whenever capacity exists to receive the
> form. Hence, man on the planet earth at a certain point in time appeared and
> developed under the influence of his species lord because the capacity was
> there in matter or in the relationships existing between beings, but this
> does not mean that man did not exist previously on other planets where
> capacity had already been developed to receive the influence of the species
> lord. This is where the Baha'i conception goes beyond Darwinism in
> recognizing a preexisting supernatural cause for all the species on earth.
> The evolution of creatures may be governed in part by random forces, but more
> essentially it is directed by the Mind of God and is a direct effect of His
> Will. There are many places where 'Abdu'l-Baha argues against the formation
> of beings by any other means except by God's will, and the species lords can
> be understood as being inherent in the Primal Will. This is why they cannot
> be taken as logical universals in the usual sense. They only resemble
> universals because they have a common influence over the species' individuals
> under their care but other than this they are completely different from
> logical universals because they have a causal priority to particulars.
>
>
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: 90s pub stats by language
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 11:29:11 EST
Cc: theos-l@vnet.net
Continuing my research into WorldCat titles for various
religious movements of the 19th century.
One can search by any of a number of languages. A search for
book titles published in the 1990s about six religions in six
languages revealed the following:
English Spanish German French Russian Japanese
Mormon 1421 12 0 4 1 1
Adventist 925 32 8 3 1 1
Spiritualist 428 42 6 29 12 17
C. Science 239 3 3 2 1 1
Baha'i 203 7 1 1 0 0
Theosophy 118 20 9 4 32 0
For Theosophists, this is an encouraging picture. In German
and Russian, there are more new books on Theosophy than any
other of the 6 traditions. In Spanish, French and English,
Theosophy's publishing presence is comparable to those of
groups dozens of times larger.
For Baha'is, it would appear that English-language works are
a disproportionately *high* percentage compared to other
groups, or to Baha'i membership statistics. Raising questions
about database coverage.
Another search looked for new titles in the 1990s on the world
religions in all languages. The totals: Christianity 45034,
Judaism 15649, Islam 10745, Buddhism, 7432, Hinduism 3050,
Sikhism 359, Baha'i 255. Even allowing for some distortion
caused by a North American databse, this shows Judaism,
Christianity and Buddhism to be producing far more literary
works in relation to their memberships than is found in the
cases of Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, and Baha'i. BTW a listing of the
titles under Islam shows them overwhelmingly in Arabic and
other non-European languages, indicating OCLC's coverage.
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: 7 Returns of Christ
To: theos-l@vnet.net
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 12:26:59 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Having wandered into the subject of comparative publishing
output for different 19th century religious movements, I found
much more information than I went looking for. The immediate
reason for searching WorldCat was to compare Baha'i publishing
to that of comparable traditions. But in coming up with five
other examples (and contemplating a sixth) there is one
surprising implication: the theme of Christ's return runs
through all of them.
The Mormons, most successful of 19th century religions, claim
to have the restored gospel and the restored early Church.
Their prophecies include a fairly imminent return of Christ.
The Adventists, 2nd most numerous, have based their entire
movement on anticipation of the return. Baha'i teaching in
Western countries tends to center on Baha'u'llah's claim to be
the returned Christ. Christian Science sees its founder as
complementing the original gospel with new information about
Christ's message; her own spiritual status is ambiguous.
Spiritualism defines Jesus as a great medium, and has produced
a large body of "channeled" material about him. Theosophy
emphasizes the law of cycles, and various factions anticipate
(or have anticipated) cyclical teachers who in some sense are
seen as returns of Christ-- most notably Krishnamurti, who
rejected the role. Theosophical offshoots like Anthroposophy,
the Temple of the People and the Lucis Trust are even more
emphatic about the present being a time for Christ to return;
yet the return is often defined as a spiritual rather than
material event. Radhasoami, another movement from the 19th
century, teaches that its spiritual practices are the same
techniques implicit in the teachings of Jesus, and can give
direct access to him. The work of Edgar Cayce recapitulates
themes from all seven of these traditions.
What is most interesting from the above facts, in light of
publishing statistics, is that contemporary vitality in
spiritual movements seems so connected to visions of Christ's
return, conceived in a great variety of manners. Regardless of
the dubious accuracy of most claims made on behalf of this
event, it is revealing about our time in history that this
theme is so prevalent. If we define the Christ as an archetype
of the collective unconscious, it seems fair to say that He/It
*has* returned *through* all the movements mentioned above.
Returned in many new forms, and with conflicting messages.
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:39:03 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Don Peden
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Conscience
On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, Bev/Don Peden wrote:
> When it comes to passive resistance, (which is really what we are
> discussing with reference to an individual's inability to follow a directive
> which they feel is contrary to moral conscience), it is very hard to have a
> catagorical answer...all cases are different...and one walks on very tricky
> ground, such as the issue of Germany. We are also distinguishing between
> moral obligation of obedience to Baha'u'llah's directive to obey just
> governments, and the obligation to be obedient to the House of Justice. Is
> the House of Justice a just government, or is it something else? A key word
> which, perhaps, bears some exploration is "just". It seems that you have
> had some dialogue on this issue with the world centre, and I would be very
> interested in hearing what the Universal House of Justice responded. I
> don't know if this is old territory on Talisman or not, and if it is,
> perhaps a private posting would be appropriate to continue on.
I can look up the letters I've sent and received on the subject; I'll try
to do so over the Christmas weekend.
There does not seem to me to be a dichotomy between what Baha'u'llah said
and what the House said. There are two principles enunciated by
Baha'u'llah: Obedience to government and not killing. Both of these have
been carried forward by the Guardian and by the House. The Guardian
stated that if available, Baha'is should seek non-combatant service. Dave
can clarify for me, but my understanding is as follows. Non combatant, in
general, refers to service which is by nature not violent: Cook, medic,
quartermaster, etc. However, there is another aspect to this. At
present, there are, in military parlance, no noncombatants in the US
military service. Whatever job a particular soldier has, he or she is
subject to an order to change duties without notice, and take up arms.
However, during the days of the Guardian in World War II, and during the
Vietnam War, there was a category for religious conscientious cooperators,
and I think there was an agreement that these people would not be subject
to an order to take up arms.
So (again, from the armchair; it's a whole other reality when you are in
an ambush, and your life and the lives of your friends are very much at
risk of a horrible death) a Baha'i medic who was, during the Vietnam War,
ordered to take up arms, might or might not be receiving a *lawful* order.
And American military law requires U.S. soldiers to obey every lawful
order. That's the way the law is written. Not having been in the
military I freely admit I might have the whole thing wrong.
The main point I am making is that the dichotomy between taking up arms in
an ambush situation in furtherance of the Baha'i principle of obedience to
government, versus refusing to do so in furtherance of the Baha'i
principle of not committing violence against a fellow human being, is not
a Baha'u'llah-House of Justice dichotomy, but a conflict between two
principles revealed by Baha'u'llah, and enunciated by the Guardian and by
the House after Him.
My recollection from the story I read by David, is that he did not take up
arms, and the situation worked out. He followed his conscience and his
standing on principle as he honestly understood it in that situation,
carried him and his friends through.
Brent
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:42:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Jonah Winters
Cc: Member1700@aol.com, talisman
Subject: Re: Review / Provisional Translations
Jonah: Stephen Lambden's *Baha'i Studies Bulletin* is published under
the auspices of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the
United Kingdom. As with many other Baha'i journals (e.g. World Order and
the Journal of Baha'i Studies), refereeing the articles has been turned
over to the editor and this in-house peer-review procedure is counted as
fulfilling Review. The provisional translations that have appeared in
*Baha'i Studies Bulletin* were not vetted by the Research Department in
Haifa. On the other hand, the *Baha'i Studies Bulletin* is received in
Haifa (I've heard the copies get snapped up immediately), and it is
perfectly well known to the House and the Research Department that these
provisional translations have been published there, and Mr. Lambden has
never been instructed to desist.
As for e-mail, the letter of the Universal House of Justice permitting
electronic-mail discussion groups among the Baha'is, posted by Saman last
spring, categorizes such groups as "private" discussions, not public
"publications", and therefore does not require Review of what goes on
here. Again, the House and the Research Department are perfectly well
aware that provisional translations have been posted here, and they have
not seen fit to ask anyone to desist. It is not the place of anyone else
to tell another Baha'i what to do.
A provisionally translated paragraph was published, by Keven Brown, in the
Journal of Baha'i Studies, and when Rob queried the House on it he was
told that it was all right because they trusted Mr. Brown's translating
abilities (or words to that effect).
Circulating provisional translations is absolutely essential
to the advance of Baha'i scholarship. Only in this way can scholars get
feedback on their translations from peers. I had excellent comments from
Dr. Franklin Lewis of the University of Chicago on my translation of
Baha'u'llah's "Commentary on the Surah of the Sun" after it appeared in
*Baha'i Studies Bulletin*. It would have been impossible for me to send
the translation out privately to 150 persons in hopes of getting this one
response.
Thanks to Michael Eissinger for posting the letters from the Research
Department about provisional translation.
My reply is that, however, these guidelines do in fact make conventional
academic scholarship on the Baha'i Faith difficult or impossible, and
impede the growth of Baha'i studies as a field. John Walbridge has
already powerfully stated some of the reasons for this. There are also
philosophical problems. There simply is not only one right way to
translate something, nor can there be an all-purpose translation.
Philosophers and historians must be free to translate contextually in
order to make their arguments. There should be one Some Answered
Questions translation for the lay community, and another for the use of
professional philosophers and theologians. And, of course, eventually
there will be a multiplicity of translations of Baha'i texts, just as
there are of the Bible and the Qur'an.
Another problem is that the Research Department sometimes itself gets
things wrong. When Mr. Faizi's translation of *Stories from the Delight
of Hearts* was reviewed in Haifa, he had accurately translated Mirza
Haydar `Ali's encounter with the ahl-i tariqat as an encounter with
Sufis. The Research department objected to this rendering and insisted
it be replaced with "people of religion" or some such pablum. Of course,
this was before Dr. Vahid Rafati was hired (he has the same degree as I
do, in Islamic Studies from the University of California). But one
person cannot do everything--more especially since the Research
Department has very little time indeed to do things like check
translations, mainly spending their time looking up references for the
practical needs of the House.
The American Baha'i community now actually has far more expertise and
talent in this area than does Haifa, with Professor Amin Banani, UCLA,
Professor Heshmet Moayyad, U of Chicago, Dr. Frank Lewis, U of Chicago,
Professor Sholeh Quinn, U of Ohio, Professor Todd Lawon, McGill, Professor
John Walbridge, Indiana University, and a number of others; it is perhaps
for this reason that the House can now envisage decentralizing some of
these processes. I can only think of three persons in Haifa whose
suggestions for how better to render a verse I would seek out--Vahid
Rafati, Mark Hellaby and Hushmand Fatheazam. But in no case would I feel
bound but such a suggestion, especially if the issue were historical,
since I've spent years reading 19th-century Arabic newspapers, e.g. I'd
be equally interested in what Professor Banani, Moayyad, Lewis and
Walbridge, e.g., had to say. There is no justification from expertise in
the current procedure, which makes it unwieldy and irrational.
Those lay Baha'is who are so eager to tell professional Baha'i historians
and philosophers how they should do things would be well advised to listen
to us when we say that their suggestions are impractical and have a
deleterious effect upon Baha'i scholarship (and thence upon a number of
other important areas--publication of journal articles, incorporation of
accurate accounts into reference works, public knowledge of the Faith,
and teaching persons of capacity).
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:39:39 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Baha'i Studies Bulletin ! at Bosch
To: talisman@indiana.edu
The Baha'i Studies Bulletin which is published in the UK is available
at the Bosch Book Shop . We have several issues . I mention this
because of a posting that Juan did to Jonah Winters .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 13:23:54 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Fadil and Babism
To: talisman@indiana.edu
With regard to the suppression of Zuhur al-Haqq and the public disgrace
of Fadil, there is an ideological side that Ahang did not touch on. It has
to do with changing attitudes to the Bab and the Babis.
The nuances of Baha'i attitudes towards the Babi and the Babi religion have
changed over time. Three interpretations are relevant here:
1) Sympathy with Babism as a revolutionary Shiite movement continuous
with esoteric and sectarian Shiism.
2) Distancing of the Baha'i Faith from Babism on the grounds that
the Baha'i Faith is a distinct religious movement.
3) Retroactive assimilation of the Babi religion to Baha'i standards.
The fact is that in many ways the Babis *were* different from Baha'is.
They were deeply involved in a sort of cabbalistic eschatology that goes far
back into the esoteric and charismatic roots of Shiism. They did not share
the Baha'i rejection of violence. They were, on the whole, a thoroughly
Shiite enterprise.
Baha'u'llah, who was trying to preserve the community, stressed the
distinctiveness of the Baha'i religion. This is most easily seen in various
statements of 'Abdu'l-Baha where he stresses, for example, that violence of
the sort practiced by the Babis was contrary to the Baha'i religion. This is
alternative (2).
Alternative (3) stresses the commonality of the Babi and Baha'i religions
and minimizes those aspects of the Babis that differed fundamentally from
the Baha'i Faith. The two great champions of this approach are Shoghi
Effendi's Nabil and the Guardian himself. At least in the form we have it,
Nabil's history is, among many other things, an attempt to justify Babi
history as being in conformity with Baha'i standards. Thus, in the study I
did of his treatment of the battle of Zanjan, he downplays, reinterprets, or
omits anything that portrays the Babis as aggressive. Such an approach is
very characteristic of the Guardian who translated Nabil and who carefully
refers to the various battles as "upheavals," rather than "Babi revolts," in
*God Passes By*. Such a position served to strengthen the quite valid
Baha'i claim to be apolitical and law-abiding.
Probably as a result of 'Abdu'l-Baha's distancing of the Faith from the
Babis, Babi studies were generally out of fashion with Iranian Baha'i
scholars in the period between the death of 'Abdu'l-Baha and the Islamic
Revolution. Virtually none of the Bab's works were published by the
Iranian Baha'is, and not very much was written about the Bab. The current
revival of interest in Babi studies arose in the West.
The exception was Fadil. Apart from the three volumes of Zuhuru'l-Haqq
dealing with the Shaykhis and Babis, he is far more likely than his
contemporary Ishraq-Khavari to cite Babi parallels as explanations for
Baha'i texts and teachings. He is also far more likely to cite Islamic
parallels. Fadil was thus stressing the continuity of the Baha'i Faith with
Babism and Islam and stressing the Shiite and Babi aspects of the Baha'i
Faith at a time when the general policy was to stress the distinctiveness,
rationality, and modernity of the Baha'i Faith. Moreover, his deep and
detailed knowledge of Babi thought and history tended to undermine the
two rhetorical moves that would distance the Baha'i Faith from the esoteric
and sectarian aspects of the Babis.
In contrast, all three of those responsible for Fadil's fall and the suppression
of Zuhur al-Haqq were committed to other interpretations of the Faith.
Furutan was a Russian-trained educationist deeply involved in the
modernization of Iranian education and with little sympathy for the esoteric
Shiite tradition that Fadil recognized in the Babi and Baha'i Faiths. Ishraq-
Khavari also was exclusively concerned with Baha'i topics to the exclusion
of Babi material. He also translated of Shoghi Effendi's translation of
Nabil into Persian (from an Arabic translation of the English!). Shoghi
Effendi was Western-educated and his views are well known.
The suppression of Fadil's work can thus be seen as an attempt to preserve
the integrity of a particular reinterpretation of Baha'i history--one that
portrayed the Babis as (1) marginal to current Baha'i concerns and (2)
proto-Baha'is--against an intepretation of Babi and Baha'i history that (1)
stressed the distinctive features of the Babis and (2) implicitly stressed the
continuity of Islam, Babism, and the Baha'i Faith.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:30:10 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: Sema, the Alim, etc.
Dear friends,
Filled to overflowing on this Monday morning. Saturday evening I
participated (as a musician) yet another time in the Sema, the traditional
whirling ceremony of the Mevlevi Dervishes (Threshold Society/Threshold
Books). This ceremony is so profoundly powerful and beautiful and always
opens the hearts of even those spectators that don't understand exactly what
it is they're seeing and hearing. The ceremony itself is symbolic of the
death of our small self and resurrection to the Beloved. The music is
classical Turkish Sufi music, composed specifically for Sema. Three drums,
a ney (reed flute), voice, bowed tanbour, and tanbour all played by a Turk,
a Syrian-Russian, a Greek, a Kuwaiti, and three white folks (Boston's
Eurasian Ensemble and guests). A Persian artist from Manhattan came to
chant the opening lines of the Mathnawi and a surah of the Qur'an. The
music evokes such longing as slowly the semazens (dervishes) begin to whirl,
unfolding like flowers in long white flowing skirts and tall felt hats
(sikkes), their right hands turned toward heaven to receive baraka
(blessings) and their left hand turned toward the earth to bestow the
blessing on all creation. It filled me with such joy to be able to share in
this with people of many tariqats and diverse cultures. Over two hundred
people from little ol' Brattleboro, VT and beyond attended the event and
over one hundred stayed to join in the Mevlevi dhikr (reciting Names of God
with drumming and movement). The traditional Sema is performed annually in
Konya, Turkey, Cairo, Egypt, and Brattleboro, Vermont. I'll be bringing
some music of this tradition, Insha'llah, to the Mysticism Conference at
Bosch in February. So, SIGN UP NOW.
Juan: The ALIM is truly a wonderful tool, great fun, and, yes, even as
addictive as Talisman. So, let the buyer beware.
Warmest Regards,
LuAnne
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Zuhuru'l-Haqq -- NSA's objections
To: rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com (Ahang Rabbani)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 14:10:56 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
FROM NSA OBJECTIONS TO SOURCE CRITICISM
Perhaps one problem in the writing of Baha'i history is that the
sources are not allowed to speak for themselves, and to be judged on
their own merits, on a case-by-case basis.
Fadil worked from his sources, as did Nabil, as did the beloved
Guardian. The integrity of none of these three historians should have ever
been questioned -- only the integrity of the primary sources themselves.
DOES THE GUARDIAN'S DIRECTIVE PROHIBIT USE OF ZH VOLS. 4 & 5?
Obviously overcome by the injustice done to Fadil, Ahang's pearls
were left unstrung. I still wish to hear Ahang's response to my
tongue-in-cheek comments on Gospel harmonization.
Christianity's first great scholar -- Origen -- noted that there
was an irreconcilable disharmony been the Gospel of John and the
Synoptics. My question is this: How far does the Guardian's requirement
for harmonization really go?
For the sake of argument, let us say that publication of ZH is
constrained by the *Dawnbreakers*. But the Dawnbreakers only takes us so
far. There is nothing against which ZH vols. 4 & 5 MUST be measured,
except possibly for *God Passes By*.
If there is a disagreement as to sources, it is not arguing against
the integrity or the conferred infallibility of the Guardian when sources
are critically and impartially examined. Stephen Lambden (and, following
him, Michael Sours) has argued that there are hagiographical tendencies in
Nabil in the creation of a Baha'i *myth* that gilds its received history.
And even the House has written a letter suggesting that the
Guardian's historical accuracy was constrained by his sources. So, here
again, we need to critically evaluate the sources, not the historians.
RECLAIMING FADIL'S INTEGRITY:
A PROPOSAL TO TRANSLATE AN ABRIDGEMENT OF ZH VOLS 4 & 5
*Dawnbreakers* takes us only to the dawn of Baha'u'llah's
ministry. The Arabic original of the second half of Nabil's history
remains unpublished. I submit that this is because there are certain
problems with Nabil's treatment of Baha'u'llah's ministry. For one thing,
I hear there are a number of miracles Nabil ascribes to Baha'u'llah.
Therefore, unless there is a stated administrative requirement
that harmonization is required for writing Baha'i history, such that
*God Passes By* and Balyuzi's *Baha'u'llah, the King of Glory* are
sacrosanct and cannot be questioned, I submit that Fadil's later work
ought to be published (vols. 4 & 5), beginning with an abridged
translation of vols. 4 & 5.
In this way, I believe a partial vindication of Fadil is possible
and highly desirable. Besides which, we might learn something new about
Baha'u'llah. Note that I am not touching the ethical issues here. As
Leonard Cohen wrote in one of his songs: *I don't like what happened to my
sister.* The same goes for Fadil. So let's at least begin to make use of
that part of his work that has not (yet) been impeached. Your thoughts,
Ahang, Juan, John, et al?
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 14:09:09 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: birds warbling
To: talisman@indiana.edu
We have Robert singing out on a limb by himself and Derek carrying on like a
crazed hoopoe bird. I will check with my love bird and see if either or both
could share her cage with her.
Robert, the entire foundation of the Baha'i Faith is not going to fall if the
Baha'is follow the logic of Darwin's theory. The Baha'i Faith is not built on
a brief statement by Abdu'l Baha during a talk on the nature of man. If you
are going to limit yourself in this way, what other restrictions are you going
to put on yourself? Is the goal of the Baha'i Faith to see the world as
narrowly as possible? And if we cannot apply the teaching about the harmony of
science and religion to evolutionary theory, then, pray tell, where can we
apply it?
I believe that weeks ago Burl noted that I had placed an order with Derek for
Burl'l book. It is now December 18 and the book still has not arrived. I know
that it is a very long walk for Derek from Bosch to the post office (no doubt
the walk does him a world of good), but I am now wondering if he does not make
enough trips to the post office. If Derek had more errands of this nature to
run, he might not have as much time to torment certain victimized individuals
on Talisman. I suggest that, as a Talisman project, we think of errands to
occupy Derek's excessive amount of free time. In the meantime, he might send
the music to "Why are we Waiting?" or whatever that little ditty is. I realize
now that I was humming the wrong tune. My tap dance went to the tune of Why
Was I Born Too Late. However, now I realize that I made a grievous error.
Please send the music Derek, but not "Chapter 2." Linda
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 14:21:23 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: religious images
To: talisman@indiana.edu
John's posting on Fadil and his writings on the Babis made great sense to me.
There is a continual struggle in the religions with which I am familiar for
control of the image that the religion wishes to project.
I have some difficulty, though not nearly to the extent that John, Juan, Todd,
and others have, in doing anthropoligical work among the Shi'a because the more
learned Shi'a don't want the world to think that the extreme "irrational"
aspects of Shi'ism are really present in the world today. They prefer to
present an image of Islam (and Shi'ism) as being very legalistic, rational, and
in harmony with modern life. For me to explore other aspects of the religion
makes them a tad nervous. However, they don't try to stop me. They just
expresss exasperation that I persist in speaking to the "wrong" people.
My feeling is that the Baha'i Faith won't really gain "respectability" until we
are allowed to explore all aspects of the Babi and Baha'i religions and present
them as openly as we would any other body of material. I have watched scholars
become Muslims even though they are exploring this religion using "cold"
Western scientific methodology in their studies. This type of writing is not
going to harm the Faith. It will deepen and broaden it. Right now, it is
stuck in a groove and, alas, is appearing to be a bit naive. I hope that
Talisman's success is to open the doors for all sorts of new understandings.
Linda
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:59:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: Christopher Buck
Cc: Ahang Rabbani , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Zuhur'l-Haqq and Encyclopedia
> Ahang writes:
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> This makes Shoghi Effendi all upset with Zuhuru'l-Haqq as he
> didn't like anything that deviated by a dot from the Dawnbreakers.
> So on 15 September 1932, he writes (my inadequate translation):
>
> "Immediately organize a special committee to investigate,
> reorganize and bring into conformity Jinab-i Fadil's history
> with that of Nabil's history [the Dawnbreakers]. Of this
> task and grave responsibility, no delay is permitted, and
> utmost effort must be diligently exerted."
I would very much like to more about the situation that gave rise to this
letter. There are so many variant versions of the story about the demise
of this work, that it is more than a little difficult to sort out what
the purpose of this was. One person, who has seen unpublished
correspondence from Shoghi Effendi and others relating to this event, has
assrted to me that the Guardian was concerned that Fadil had collected
copies of tablets and historical materials without making any efforts to
authenticate them and without gathering sufficient information about
their provenance. In other words, he did not want such materials
published without some critical analysis of their origins. Using the
Dawn Breakers as a standard for authentification of historical materials,
while hardly scholarly or scientific, may have been seen as a way of
keeping the project alive rather than suppressing it.
Such a possibility seems to be more consistent with the other actions of
Shoghi Effendi. For example, while he obviously held Nabil's Narrative
in high esteem and used it heavily in his own writings, it was at his
instructions that memoirs of companions of Baha'u'llah be collected,
Now, it is inconceivable that these memoirs would be in agreement with
Nabil's Narrative on every point, yet in at least one instance (the
memoirs of Ashchi, Baha'u'llah's cook), he commissioned an English
translation, presumeably to make it available to Western Baha'is.
He also, as is well-known, directed that histories and memoirs be written
about Baha'i communities around the world. Consequently, the obvious
reading of the letter translated by Ahang, seems out-of-character, unless
we are missing a critical part of the story.
Richard
=END=
Date: 18 Dec 95 15:25:27 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Talisman Mysticism Conference Call
Dear Talismanians,
A warm Talis-welcome to Anton, Paul, Steve, Peter and to Bill Collins.
I would appeal to other lurkers to introduce themselves, too.
The time draws nigh for the long-awaited Talisman Mysticism Conference
(Bosch Baha'i School, February 23-25, 1996 -- Register Now! or fall
hopeless into error and loss), and those who have chosen to help out
with its structure and form will convene this week on a conference
call.
We will speak with each other on Thursday the 21st, and I'll take
suggestions now as to the time of day most convenient for most
conveners. Bosch program wiz and Hobbesian ABM Marsha Gilpatrick will
join us in our deliberations.
Nima, Luanne, Juan, Steve, Terry, and all others on the agenda for the
conference -- you might want to think a bit in advance as to how the
agenda might aspire to or flee from structure, and what you'd recommend.
Anyone else who plans to attend the conference would be most welcome on
the call -- Irfan Republic at work, right before our very eyes.
Please call me at 1-800-950-2647, extension 720 during business hours PST,
or at home -- 310-326-8900 -- at all other odd hours of the day and night
if you wish to be included on the call. E-mail would work, too.
Love,
David
p.s. A rumour persists that the Carmels will appear in concert there --
any mystical truth to that one?
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 14:11:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Teaching Christians
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Robert,
Robert Johnson: "Any intellectual position that is not moderate is untrue."
Dann May: Including this one?
RJ: The Darwinistic viewpoint expresses itself in anti-religious forms.
DM:It doesn t necessarily have to, see process philosophy.
RJ: Dann, Robert S and Linda (et al) express their positions on
evolution in extreme ways. That is: if yer not with Darwin yer a
fundamentalist and think the world was made in seven days.
DM: I think you have misread me.
I didn't state my extreme allegiance in Darwinism, almost no philosopher or
scientist does. Modern evolutionary theory has moved considerably past
Darwin's original theory. I suggested that the universe is in process -- is
dynamic, evolving, and ever-changing -- and also suggested that process
philosophy and theology might come to our aid in understanding
Abdu'l-Baha's remarks on evolution. Henri Bergson (1859-1941), a French
philosopher, was writing on the subject at about the same time as
Abdu'l-Baha, and Jack McLean tells me that they even met.
Bergson was one of the most popular and often read philosophers of his day.
He inspired such thinkers as Alfred Whitehead, Gabriel Marcel, Jacques
Maritain, and won acclaim from the American philosophers John Dewey and
William James, as well as considerable praise from Carl Jung. The Nobel
laureate in chemistry Ilya Prigogine credits Bergson as a great influence
on his own work in oscillating chemical reactions (see _Order out of Chaos:
Man s New Dialogue with Nature_, 1984).
Bergson was a critic of two extremes in the then current evolutionary
debate: one being neo-Darwinism, especially mechanistic explanations of
evolution, the other, neo-Lamarkian theories. In other words, he criticized
both mechanistic and teleological theories, and offered what he thought was
a more tenable alternative. Bergson argues in _Creative Evolution_ (1911),
that matter embodies or contains within in itself what he calls _elan
vital_, "the vital impetus" or "principle," "the life force" or life
potentiality that "drives" or gives rise to the very emergence of life on
this planet. This vital principle also impels the evolutionary process to
unfold all of its potentiality in the rich and varied diversity of living
creatures we now see around us. Bergson goes on to argue that consciousness
was always a potentiality within the elan vital and this is what drove the
evolutionary process to eventually bring forth human beings. This might be
one way to interpret Abdu'l-Baha's remarks about "man always being man." In
other words, if consciousness is one of our distinguishing features (what
makes us human), then we could say that we were always potentially present
in the universe, like the genetic encoding of the mature oak tree in the
seed, to use Aristotle's example. The oak tree, like human beings, must
pass through many stages before becoming the mature acorn bearing tree --
but in some profound sense, the mature tree is always "present" in the seed
and in the process, just as human beings could be seen to be always
"present" in the evolutionary process, and in fact being part of the
impetus for the process.
Bergson specialist Pete Gunter (one of my professors at the University of
North Texas) writes: "The evolutionary impetus, as Bergson describes it,
contains within itself an infinity of potentialities, but in a state of
mutual interpenetration. Through its interaction with matter, however, this
impetus has divided in three main directions: the plants, which exist in
vegetative stupor; the arthropods (insects, spiders, crabs, etc.) whose
mode of life is instinctive; and the vertebrates (whose _modus vivendi_ is
"intelligence") culminating in the higher primates and man ("Introduction
to the UPA Edition" of _Creative Evolution_, pp. xxxiii-iv).
While Bergson is usually labeled as an "emergent naturalist," his ideas can
be modified to include a more theistic or religious approach. For example,
the elan vital could be seen as the life force (or spirit) that "God"
places in the very core of all matter -- at the heart of every atom or
subatomic particle, or alternatively, it is the process by which God
"begins" the creative act.
I await comment, as I feel such ideas have some potential for dealing with
the difficult area of `Abdu l-Baha s comments on evolution.
PS. A personal note. One reason I never became a Christian was its
anti-scientific stand, especially when it came to evolution. The Baha i
Faith attracted my attention because Baha is claimed to uphold the theory
of evolution as well as the principle of the harmony of science and
religion. My training in paleontology and paleoecology (BS and MS degrees
from the University of Washington and six years of exploration geology with
the Standard Oil Company), however, led me to question the commonly held
explanations of Abdu l-Baha s discussion of evolution. Such explanations as
well as simplistic readings of Abdu l-Baha simply don t fit very well with
modern evolutionary theory, nor with the contributions made in the area of
the philosophy of science.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * All human beings have an innate urge to know. Aristotle
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:52:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: "K. Paul Johnson"
Cc: theos-l@vnet.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: 8? (Re: 7 Returns of Christ)
Dear Paul--
You forgot to mention the late sage of Ahmednagar, Meher Baba. As far as
I'm aware he claimed to be the latest avataric manifestation of all the
prophets. He especially emphasized the christic aspect to his mission. See
his "God Speaks," for instance.
Regards,
Nima
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
"In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:01:53 -0800 (PST)
From: SAFA SADEGHPOUR
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
To: Robert Johnston
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
On Mon, 18 Dec 1995, Robert Johnston wrote:
> Dear Safa,
>
> >
> >It might be better to present specific arguments against a specific positions
> >instead of proclaiming general conditions of truth.
>
>
> One thing that amazes me is the logical inconsistencies of empiricistic
> personages. In your above sentence you do what you ask me not to do. Are
> you able to see this? If not we can spent more time examining the matter.
Dearest Robert,
Most appropriate IMO would be not to catagorize people as empiricists
or idealists insomuch that these artificial divisions divide us
in ways in which we are not intrinsicaly divided. No one is a
true empiricist or idealist but everyone has their tendencies.
What it adds up to is an ad hominem attack, which I doubt
was your intention.
We can follow logical hair splittings into saying that the
statement that I made above is paradoxical. But, so, also
we can follow such hair splittings into making pretty much
any statement to become paradoxical. If it's stated, for
instance, that truth can only be a non-extreme then the
following argument may be proposed: Things can only be
false, or true - these being the only two extremes. Therefore,
whatever an statement is it will always be an extreme. In
other words, every statement is either false or true, both
being extremes. Finally, since every statement must be
an extreme, therefore every statement, under the logic
that truth can only arrive from non-extremes, must not
be true . . . which is a contradiction. Therefore, we have
nicely arrived to a reductio ad absurdum of the original
statement.
>
>
> >
> >It is not true that anything that is not moderate is necessarily
> >not true. A perfect example might be that of God's existence: Is
> >God's existence true, or does He half-exist? Existence or non-existence. . .
> >the two extremes are the only options.
>
>
> First of all, what I wrote was : "Any intellectual position that is not
> moderate is untrue." A ref. for this: Baha'i Faith is the religion of the
> middle way (Shoghi Effendi). The Darwinistic viewpoint expresses itself in
Indeed, in many fields it is. But, this is not true when the Faith
takes a strong stand against abuse, prejudice, theft, rape,
homicide, destruction of books, and many other areas. Abuse is never
condoned, nor is the destruction of human life. Then, it cannot
be said that the statement that "the Bahai Faith is middle ground" to
be rigorous and complete.
> anti-religious forms (see letters to Talisman which again seek to devalue
> the station of 'Abdu'l-Baha, etc; and Darwin's own works): fundamentalism
> expresses itself in anti-scientific forms. These are extreme positions.
> To state that God exists is not an immoderate statement. To state that MY
> GOD exists and yours doesn't is immoderate. That that is just was these
> Darwinists and fundamentalists are doing. They are the flip side of each
> other, and not susceptible to rational argumentation.
As mentioned in the previous post, I would suggest demonstrating
how is Darwinian logic is flawed. It's far better than saying
Darwinism is probably not true due to this general thing
and the other. Remember, science is inductive at first,
and deductive at end. Not the other way around. First, we
discover general conditions of truth, then we turn
around and use these conditions to test hypotheses.
>
> God wins the day, brother: moderation is ultimately determined by
> relationship to the Word of God. An intellectual position that departs
> from the Word of God eventually becomes implicated in immoderation.
>
> I not longer expect that what I write will have anymore influence than has
> a snowball in hell. But it seems that, like the sparrow, I am destined to
> sit on the wire and sing, for no apparently good reason...
Despair not. We all try to sing while our breath allows us. Sooner
or later our rhythms will match, and then our music will
be stronger. Until then, we got to practice and try
to complement our voices, as hard as that may be.
>
> Robert.
>
>
>
the lost singing -albeit not very well- canary,
Safa
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:54:36 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.indiana.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu
Subject: Reuters 12/16-17/95 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 95/12/17
> 1. 14:05 UAE CRITICISES IRAN OVER DISPUTED ISLANDS
> 2. 12:33 IRAN ARRESTS 40 FOR ILLEGAL CURRENCY DEALINGS
> 3. 10:39 IRAN SAYS U.S. CAUSING GULF CRISES TO SELL ARMS
> 4. 08:37 U.S. CAUSING GULF CRISES TO SELL ARMS, IRAN SAYS
> 5. 07:11 IRAN CUTS IMPORTS FROM GULF TO SAVE HARD CURRENCY
>Transmission date: 95/12/16
> 6. 01:55 BURST HEROIN CAPSULE KILLS NIGERIAN NATIONAL
>
>=START= XMT: 14:05 Sun Dec 17 EXP: 14:00 Wed Dec 20
>
>
> UAE criticises Iran over disputed islands
> ABU DHABI, Dec 17 (Reuter) - The United Arab Emirates on Sunday criticised
>what it termed Iranian war threats in their dispute over three strategic Gulf
>islands.
> ``When we raise the voice of peace, Iran raises the voice of war and
>threats,'' UAE Foreign Minister Rashid Abdullah al-Nuaimi said in remarks
>carried by the official WAM news agency.
> He stressed that the UAE favoured a peaceful solution to the dispute with
>non-Arab Iran over the islands of Greater Tumb, Lesser Tumb and Abu Musa. The
>UAE and its Gulf Arab allies term Iran's presence on the islands as occupation.
> ``Every time the UAE calls for a peaceful solution, Iran responds with
>threats and is disturbed'' with such calls. ``It responded by saying it fought
>eight years (against Iraq) and can fight for 80 years'' over the islands, the
>minister said.
> He was referring to remarks earlier this month by the Iranian deputy navy
>commander, Admiral Abbas Mohtaj.
> The dispute flared when Tehran tightened security measures in 1992 on Abu
>Musa, an island with several thousand inhabitants near oil shipping lanes at
>the mouth of the Gulf, which the two sides had jointly run under a 1971
>agreement.
> The UAE responded by reasserting its claim to the Tumbs.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 12:33 Sun Dec 17 EXP: 12:00 Wed Dec 20
>
>
> Iran arrests 40 for illegal currency dealings
> TEHRAN, Dec 17 (Reuter) - Iranian intelligence ministry officers arrested
>40 people for illegal hard currency dealings in Tehran, newspapers said on
>Sunday.
> The suspects arrested over three days, were charged with ``intending to
>disrupt and cause fluctuations in currency markets,'' Ettelaat daily quoted a
>ministry statement as saying.
> In May, free market hard currency dealings were banned and all such
>transactions were ordered to go through state banks. The intelligence ministry
>was empowered to deal with violators.
> An official rate of 3,000 rials to the dollar was introduced for importers.
> Last week, the rial dropped about 10 percent on the illegal market in an
>apparent reaction to tougher sanctions approved on Tuesday against Iran by the
>U.S. Senate's banking committee.
> The rate exceeded 4,000 rials on Wendesday and reached 4,080 on Thursday
>when the crackdown started. The black market rate was little changed on Sunday.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 10:39 Sun Dec 17 EXP: 10:00 Wed Dec 20
>
>
> Iran says U.S. causing Gulf crises to sell arms
> (Adds Khamenei statement, details, pvs NICOSIA)
> TEHRAN, Dec 17 (Reuter) - Iran on Sunday accused the United States of
>creating artificial crises in the Gulf to justify arms sales to the region.
> Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati said that even though the main pretext
>for foreign forces in the region -- Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait -- had been
>removed, foreign fleets were still carrying out ``provocative military
>manoeuvres.''
> Spiritual leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, meanwhile, said the United States
>cannot ``do a damn thing'' against Iran.
> Velayati, opening a two-day international seminar on the Gulf, said Arab
>countries were still spending huge sums on exercises, paying for the dispatch
>of U.S. forces to the region.
> The official Iranian news agency IRNA said he referred to an unprecedented
>rush of foreign forces to the Gulf.
> The United States attributed any crisis, rioting or bombs in Gulf littoral
>states to Iran, it quoted him saying.
> Velayati described an invitation to foreign powers to bring security to the
>Gulf as a ``big blunder.'' He said that in an atmosphere of suspicion and
>concern, triggered by the military presence of aliens and their intimidating
>and divisive policy, regional countries had no option but to get closer to one
>another and build confidence among themselves.
> Iran's deputy foreign minister for Africa and the Middle East, Hussein
>Sheikholeslam, was reported over the weekend as saying for the first time that
>Iran was willing to sign a non-aggression treaty with all Gulf states.
> ``We are ready to sign a non-aggression treaty with all the countries of
>the Gulf to boost security in the region,'' the Qatar daily al-Raya quoted him
>saying in a statement.
> ``The treaty must also stipulate that the countries of the region do not
>support any aggression carried out by one state against another,'' it quoted
>him saying, adding that the presence of foreign troops in the region was a
>threat to security.
> Velayati said the United States was continuing its policy of dual
>containment and economic pressure and sanctions on Iran in an effort to impose
>its own policies on the Gulf.
> Iran was willing to resolve problems and misunderstandings with its
>neighbours, who he urged to put aside old enmities and false and chronic
>disputes and lay down conditions for friendship and cooperation.
> ``The introduction of the new world order in the Persian Gulf region must
>coincide with the exit of foreign forces and the removal of their colonialist
>bases in the region,'' Iranian television quoted him as saying.
> Velayati also pointed to growing Islamic awareness and the assumption of a
>new dynamic concept of transnationalism referred to as a ``single Islamic
>community.''
> IRNA said political experts from Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon,
>Egypt, Jordan, Tunisia, Britain, Germany, the United States, France, China,
>Russia and Japan were to present papers at the seminar.
> Khamenei, speaking to officers during a visit to an air force college,
>said: ``Due to inexperience, rawness and lack of information about humane
>realities, American rulers have always failed against (the) Islamic state.
> ``As America faced defeat in their conspiracy of economic embargo, from now
>on, too, they will not be able to do a damn thing against the mountain of
>patience, faith and dynamic talents of the Iranian Moslem nation.''
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 08:37 Sun Dec 17 EXP: 08:00 Wed Dec 20
>
>
> U.S. causing Gulf crises to sell arms, Iran says
> NICOSIA, Dec 17 (Reuter) - Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati
>accused the United States of creating artificial crises in the Gulf to justify
>arms sales to the region, Iranian television reported on Sunday.
> Even though the main pretext for the presence of foreign forces in the
>region -- Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait -- had been removed, foreign fleets
>were still carrying out ``provocative military manoeuvres,'' Velayati told a
>two-day international seminar on the Gulf.
> Arab countries were also continuing to spend huge sums on these exercises,
>paying for the dispatch of U.S. forces to the region, he said according to
>Iranian television monitored by the BBC.
> The United States was continuing its policy of dual containment and
>maintaining economic pressure and sanctions on Iran in an effort to impose its
>own policies on the Gulf, he said.
> Velayati said Iran was willing to resolve problems and misunderstandings
>with its neighbours, who he urged to put aside old enmities and false disputes
>and lay down conditions for friendship and cooperation.
> ``The introduction of the new world order in the Persian Gulf region must
>coincide with the exit of foreign forces and the removal of their colonialist
>bases in the region,'' he said.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 07:11 Sun Dec 17 EXP: 07:00 Wed Dec 20
>
>
> Iran cuts imports from Gulf to save hard currency
> By Steven Swindells
> DUBAI, Dec 17 (Reuter) - Iran has slashed by nearly a quarter its imports
>of hard-currency goods from its main Gulf trading partner Dubai, latest trade
>statistics from the emirate's customs department showed on Sunday.
> Reduced purchases from the UAE's main port city are signs of Tehran's
>policy of limiting non-essential imports so that it can build foreign currency
>reserves to meet international debt repayments in 1996, bankers in the region
>said.
> Re-exports of goods from Dubai to Iran fell to 2.50 billion dirhams ($681
>million) in the first nine months of 1995, 23 percent down from the same period
>last year, Dubai officials told Reuters.
> Dubai -- trading hub of the United Arab Emirates -- is Iran's main link to
>foreign goods, particularly machinery, mechanical appliances, electrical
>equipment and textiles, according to the Dubai Chamber of Commerce and
>Industry.
> U.S. goods, even though banned under U.S. trade sanctions against Iran,
>often find their way to the Islamic republic through Dubai, which is just
>across the Gulf.
> Evidence of lower re-exports from Dubai agrees with estimates by
>Tehran-based diplomats who say that Iran's imports from its main trading
>partners of Germany, Japan, Britain, Italy and France have fallen by up to half
>this year.
> By limiting its hard-currency imports, Tehran hopes to be able to meet an
>annual debt obligation of between $5 billion and $6 billion, diplomats say.
> The Iranian parliament in September voted to ban imports of soft drinks,
>chocolate and toys as non-essential goods.
> Iran's total financial obligations to foreign countries in the context of
>its second five-year plan are $33 billion, of which $17 billion is rescheduled,
>according to Central Bank governor Mohsen Nourbakhsh.
> Tehran's oil revenue -- Iran is the world's third largest oil exporter
>after Saudi Arabia and Norway -- is expected to be just under $16 billion in
>the next Iranian financial year which begins in March.
> A collapse in the value of the rial against the dollar in May and the
>resulting introduction of strict currency controls has also dented Iran's
>ability to import goods from Dubai, diplomats say.
> Dubai customs statistics show that Iran accounted for 28.6 percent of its
>total re-export market between January and September, down from 30.2 percent in
>the first six months of the year and 41.7 percent in the first six months of
>1994.
> Dubai's total re-export trade volume grew to 8.745 billion dirhams in the
>first nine months of the year, compared with 7.886 billion dirhams in
>January-September 1994, latest figures show.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 01:55 Sat Dec 16 EXP: 01:00 Tue Dec 19
>
>
> Burst heroin capsule kills Nigerian national
> QUETTA, Pakistan, Dec 16 (Reuter) - A Nigerian died in a hotel on the
>Pakistan-Iran border when one of several dozen heroin capsules burst in his
>stomach, police and hospital sources said on Saturday.
> Police said the Nigerian, identified only as Abby-Bwelew, had booked into a
>hotel in Taftan in the southwestern province of Balochistan on Thursday evening
>because the border was shut.
> The next morning his West Indian companion Nash Johnson told the hotel
>management Abby-Bwelwe had died in the night. Johnson was arrested as a murder
>suspect and Abby-Bwelwe's body was sent to Quetta, the provincial capital, for
>an autopsy.
> A hospital doctor said the Nigerian had been carrying 82 capsules of heroin
>in his stomach, one of which had burst, causing his death. Johnson was also
>medically examined but was not found to be carrying drugs. He remained in
>detention.
> Police said Abby-Bwelew had planned to travel overland to Europe via Iran
>and Turkey to avoid airport checks where Nigerians and other Africans are often
>searched for drugs.
> In another development, customs men seized more than three tonnes of
>marijuana concealed in an apple truck at Balily near Quetta on Friday night, a
>customs official said.
> He said the marijuana had been brought from Afghanistan for shipment to
>Europe from Balochistan. The driver and his companions escaped in the dark, the
>official added.
> Smugglers use Pakistan as a route to transport narcotics produced here and
>in neighbouring Afghanistan to markets in Europe, the Gulf and elsewhere.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:31:44 +1300 (NZDT)
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: birds warbling
Dear Linda,
Sparrows chirrup rather than warble. And like William Carlos
Williams' red wheel barrow in the rain (your cue David) EVERYTHING depends
upon our knowing this...
Robert ;-}
=END=
From: kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Subject: A Thought on Faith & Reason...
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:52:15 -0600 (CST)
Dear Friends Allah'u'Abha!
I have noticed that as Baha'is we tend to want to find a comfortable/stable
position to which we can "cling", which frequently involves dismissing a view
which seems contradictory to us. I have struggled and continue struggling to
balance Faith and Reason. Sometimes this is very hard and uncomfortable.
Lately, however, I'm beginning to sense that perhaps this "tension" between
the two will propel us to a higher plane of discourse. Rather than
"degenerating" to
one view or the other of those available, perhaps this "tension" I'm referring
to can help to propel us to a novel view; a path which is very difficult (the
road less taken, perhaps (g)! I realize that I'm not explaining myself very
well, but are there others out there who perhaps have the "sense" of what I'm
saying
here?
Warmest Regards to All!
Ken
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: 90s pub stats by language
To: "K. Paul Johnson"
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 16:47:35 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, theos-l@vnet.net
Followup: checked the OCLC database for books in Arabic and
Persian on Baha'i. The totals were 54 and 129 titles,
respectively. Taking these numbers in relation to the
estimated overall number of titles printed on the Faith in
these languages should give a measure of the representativeness
of the database.
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:57:47 +1300 (NZDT)
To: SAFA SADEGHPOUR , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
Dear Safa,
...the Faith
>takes a strong stand against abuse, prejudice, theft, rape,
>homicide, destruction of books, and many other areas. Abuse is never
>condoned, nor is the destruction of human life. Then, it cannot
>be said that the statement that "the Bahai Faith is middle ground" to
>be rigorous and complete.
When I was a child I went with a friend to collect some shoes from the shoe
shop. We went at "morning interval" and arrived back at nearly lunch
time. As I recall the weather was wet and miserable. For going away
without permission and for coming back late anyway, the teacher strapped
our hands with a lump of leather. Our hands, already numb with cold,
became agonizingly painful, and we jumped around, our faces contorted like
images from hell... Now, I hope I learned something from that experience.
If I am to accept from you that Shoghi Effendi was wrong when he said the
Faith was the religion of the middle way, then it seems to me that once
again I am going with Harltey Collett out into the rain to get a pair of
shoes ...
You wrote:
Remember, science is inductive at first,
>and deductive at end. Not the other way around. First, we
>discover general conditions of truth, then we turn
>around and use these conditions to test hypotheses.
If you insist. The standard of truth on all the world of God is the Baha'i
Writings... If the Darwinists can prove that 'Abdu'l-Baha was wrong, I'd
be very interested...
Always your companion in the schoolroom and on the playground,
Robert.
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 17:50:34 -0500
To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz, LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu,
talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: birds warbling
Robert, cues are piling up! As a child I imagined myself one of a group of
scientists eons in the future shooting missiles into the sun to keep it
going.Admittedly this seems unlikely ever. Also I looked forward to monkeys
evolving speech organs and abilities for talk and reason. What then? And why
not? I can't for the life of me understand your evolution, though I like you
very much. It seems we are all so related, the universe being one thing,
that the body is an organ which develops to house (temporarily) the soul. As
such, we would expect that the boundary between human life and non-human life
is, as examined over time, both indefinite and unknowable. Further, for
everything that happens(however "thing" and "happens" be defined) multiple
causes operate simultaneously, and can be viewed through both teleological
and nonteleological frames.This, it seems, can be derived from the revealed
nature of God, fairly simply, as His Names, for instance, the Hidden and the
Seen, require it. Scripture may indeed provide some metaphors of use to
science, but to reject scientific metaphors and accounts of events or classes
of events in toto in favor of deriving explanations from scripture usually
leads to error because it means a rejecting of information, and we should
never reject information, but just as fundamentally, presents a model which,
if successful, would prove believers in possession of the kind of "magical"
power which, in this age of maturity, we should --not-- expect to possess. By
the same reasoning I expect that even in the Golden Age of the Faith there
will be reasonable, even wonderful people who, though exemplary in every way,
will not be Baha'is, even in their heart of hearts. And I mean such people
as I would not want to be in Heaven without! The other day you said something
about people who are not Baha'is lacking something. It made me remember that
in my early Baha'i days I heard quaint talk of people being "veiled from the
Truth." Humanity being one, it seems to me the only difference between people
with faith in Baha'u'llah and others is in the variety of veil covering us.
We all have bits and peices of the truth. Necessarily, some of us possess a
Name that will increasingly prove central to the Spirit guiding us all, but
we go astray in many ways, particularly when we think of truth as something
we posess. We become Baha'i for many reasons. How many of us know what we
are getting into? How many of the ideas and images that move us come from
elewhere?
Wish it was summer here.
"Well I wish I was
On some Australian mountain range.
Ain't got no reason to be there
But I imagine it would be some kind of change."
(Mr. Dylan--Outlaw Blues)
your freind who hopes to post more but lacks time
dave taylor
Again cues are piling up as is, unfortunately, the snow.
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 17:50:14 EWT
From: JWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Authenticity of texts
To: talisman@indiana.edu
In fairness to Fadil, *no* Baha'i scholar in Iran dealt with sources
in a way that would be satisfactory to a Western scholar. Ishraq-Khavari's
works are full of statements like, "Dar lawhi'st"--"In a tablet is. . . "
--with no indication of source.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:30:44 -0800 (PST)
From: SAFA SADEGHPOUR
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
To: Robert Johnston
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Robert Johnston wrote:
> Dear Safa,
>
> ...the Faith
> >takes a strong stand against abuse, prejudice, theft, rape,
> >homicide, destruction of books, and many other areas. Abuse is never
> >condoned, nor is the destruction of human life. Then, it cannot
> >be said that the statement that "the Bahai Faith is middle ground" to
> >be rigorous and complete.
>
> When I was a child I went with a friend to collect some shoes from the shoe
> shop. We went at "morning interval" and arrived back at nearly lunch
> time. As I recall the weather was wet and miserable. For going away
> without permission and for coming back late anyway, the teacher strapped
> our hands with a lump of leather. Our hands, already numb with cold,
> became agonizingly painful, and we jumped around, our faces contorted like
> images from hell... Now, I hope I learned something from that experience.
> If I am to accept from you that Shoghi Effendi was wrong when he said the
> Faith was the religion of the middle way, then it seems to me that once
> again I am going with Harltey Collett out into the rain to get a pair of
> shoes ...
>
Dear Robert,
I don't know but I keep feeling not a conversation here but
a discussion on who wins, faith or reason - science or religion.
Everything I say seems to be used to show how weak my faith
is, and what that all I say is in some way or another
against the true standard of belief. Can't we have a
simple minded conversation just trying to find what the
truth is instead of trying to prove our point by intricate
arguments and such (I am guilty of this as anyone else)?
When it is said that a statement is not complete and
rigorous this does not imply that the statement is false.
A perfect example is that mentioned by Juan some time
ago, "The Sun rises." This statement is true if all
persons involved understand the specific connotation
of it when used in spoken language. If not, one might
believe that the person who utters that statement is
in total ignorance inasmuch that we know that the
Sun doesn't rise per se, but it is us that translate
around the Sun. The key here is to see the context,
and to follow the connotations carried with a
particular sentence.
I might be off but it seems that Shoghi Effendi
was referring to those things in which the Bahai Faith
characterizes itself in being moderate - Harmony
of Science and Religion, Equality of rights of men
and women, Elimination of extremes of wealth and
poverty, and others. But, I doubt that he was denying
the KIA where it is stated that a murderer shall receive
the death penalty (or a life sentence) (which is quite
a harsh punishment).
Under this logic and following Juan's concept of
Infabillity (if I have not misinterpreted), no statement
coming from a Manifestation of God can be complete
and rigorous inasmuch that this would deny the
principle of Progressive Revelation, the curtains
of Divine Emanation would become shut, and the
ever-flowing rivers of never-emptying sweetness
would come to an end. In other words, there would
be nothing left to say.
>
> You wrote:
>
> Remember, science is inductive at first,
> >and deductive at end. Not the other way around. First, we
> >discover general conditions of truth, then we turn
> >around and use these conditions to test hypotheses.
>
>
> If you insist. The standard of truth on all the world of God is the Baha'i
> Writings... If the Darwinists can prove that 'Abdu'l-Baha was wrong, I'd
Would you say that to the next Manifestation of God when she/he
proclaims a statement which may seem different from either
Darwin or Abdul-Baha? Both scientific and religious
truth are relative, but each claim precedence in their
own realm of validity.
> be very interested...
>
> Always your companion in the schoolroom and on the playground,
>
> Robert.
>
>
Take care.
your friend in the cold and darkness ;),
Safa
=END=
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 14:52:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: So, what's wrong with Zuhuru'l-Haqq?
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
With apologies to all for posting again; I'm on Xmas vacation
with too much free time on hand .... besides this subject is too
fascinating not to comment, even though I'm aware its of interest
to a small segment of Talisman.
I think the suggestion of a conspiracy to suppress Zuhuru'l-Haqq
might be too strong, or at least there are other factors that
must be considered.
In 131-132 BE (1975-76), the Iranian publishing trust, printed
volume 8 of ZH in two parts (too thick to make a single book).
There is an interesting comment in the short introduction that
they included. They say, and I paraphrase:
since the publication of vol 3 of 9-volume series of
Zuhuru'l-Haqq, friends have been anticipating publication of
the remaining volumes so they may study and benefit from them.
Recently it was learned that vols 8 and 9 are in Iran and
accessible, and after securing the permission of the NSA we
now present vol 8 with the hope to print vol 9 very shortly.
So I don't believe there was a organized campaign to suppress ZH
series, since as late as mid 70's the Iranian NSA was supporting
its publication. I think a more likely scenario is that the set
was no longer in Iran! Perhaps the entire project was shipped to
Haifa and that's where it was? I don't know, I'm just guessing.
I also think that Richard's theory about authenticity issues of
manuscripts and Texts used, is plausible. As such later volumes
would perceived "accurate" since these covered the contemporary
periods and contained very little Scripture (at least vol 8 is
like that). I suspect that the same would be true of vol 9 since
it covered the time of the Guardian and its accuracy must have
been evident.
But what of earlier volumes?
I don't think John's theory is really applicable to vol 4-9 since
there is almost no mention of the Bab, His Writings and
teachings, or the behavior of the Babis in these (I'm obviously
extrapolating from vol 4, 6 and 8 to the remaining ones, namely,
5, 7 and 9).
Besides, John's theory about unruly Babis and their revolutionary
characters (which is all true!) would be most evident in vol 3
when Fadil discussed individual Babi leaders -- and there is very
little of this sort of thing in there. Thus, it can't be because
of the embarrassing things in there they didn't get published.
My father was a student of both Fadil and Ishraq-Khavari (in fact
he was an assistant of Fadil for some 8 months transcribing
things). If you ask a guy like that what were the ideological
differences between the two, he couldn't answer. But, without a
hesitation he would say Fadil was much more knowledgeable when it
came to Tablets and history, where Ishraq-Khavari knew Islam
better. (My dad also once said of these two men: "The *least*
developed attribute in them, was their knowledge." At first I
was puzzled by this comment, as I thought of these men as great
scholars and expected their *knowledge* to be their outstanding
character, but then I understood how truly remarkable men they
were.)
Getting back to the topic, I'm beginning, therefore, to think
that the issue was as simple as accuracy and authenticity of the
Text.
But we will not know the answer for sure until the Guardian's
communications are made available on this subject.
As for Chris Buck's proposal for translation of an abridged ZH-4
and ZH-5, namely, Baha'u'llah's period, the main problem is that
I don't think anyone outside of Haifa has a copy of ZH-5.
(Chris, are you holding back? Among us book traders that would
the ultimate sin ;-} so, if you got a copy, speak up... at least
whisper it in my ear ...)
Somebody needs to write to the World Centre and ask for a copy.
As part of the proposal to the World Centre, there should be a
discussion of verification of any Text used in ZH. I believe
that much work has already been done on that in Haifa. At any
rate, writing to the World Centre seems to be the next logical
step. Chris, if you're interested in the project, which I think
is a splendid idea, write to Haifa.
regards, ahang.
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 17:49:24 -0500
To: 72110.2126@compuserve.com, Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Talisman Mysticism Conference Call
I couldn't afford the ticket if I had the time, but as it turns out, at the
time of the mysticism conference, i will be in boston at the college art
association conference "seeking" to convince some folks from Baltimore or
somewhere to let me teach drawing and painting for pay. maybe you all could
say a "Hail Mary" or something for me. At any rate the conferences make a
sort of symmetry of endeavor. I wish I could be singing and dancing and
praying and pontificating and speculating with you, but my path leads to
Boston, city of my birth.
On another note, in about a week I will post the address for a web-site which
will contain a few words and scanned color images of five paintings and a
drawing.
David Taylor
ever behind in his mail
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:21:24 -0500
To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz, think@ucla.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
Robert! You went to a horrible grade school and were terribly mistreated.
Really I grieve for you, but you must struggle against such "education," and
not try to impose it on us here. As I recall at the same school where you and
your friend were given such cruel corporal punishment, you were made to
memorize Vachel Lindsay's rhythmic but incredibly racist poem "The Congo(a
study of the Negro Race)".
with concern,
dave taylor
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:19:10 PST8PDT
Subject: Re: infalibility thread request
Hi,
I forwarded the 46 text file archives that Sen sent me
last Spring (end of May 1995). If anyone else has compiled
additional extracts from talisman messages since the end of
May 1995, please send them on.
EP
Volume in drive N is SYS
Volume Serial Number is EED4-7CD9
Directory of N:\DOCUMENT\PERSONAL\TEMP_SEN\TEMP_ALL\INFALLAB
INFAL J22 3,437 10-22-94 10:20a
INFALL DOS 4,170 10-24-94 12:37a
INFALLB J25 5,860 10-25-94 1:31p
INFALL J26 1,543 10-26-94 2:01p
INFALL L03 2,739 12-03-94 8:50p
INFALL M03 3,764 01-03-95 9:29p
INFAL M06 7,097 01-06-95 3:39p
INFALL M06 3,095 01-06-95 10:37p
INFAL M07 919 01-08-95 6:04p
INFAL2 M07 3,462 01-08-95 6:12p
INFAL3 M07 1,477 01-08-95 6:14p
INFAL2 M10 2,504 01-10-95 10:01a
INFAL4 M10 1,042 01-10-95 10:05a
INFAL6 M10 2,426 01-10-95 10:11a
INFAL7 M10 5,954 01-10-95 10:14a
INFALLZ M10 3,603 01-10-95 3:46p
INFAL2 O03 4,729 03-03-95 5:10p
INFAL 5C 6,776 03-03-95 10:08p
INFALL5 O03 6,994 03-03-95 10:30p
INFALL4 O03 3,128 03-03-95 10:33p
INFAL1 O04 2,505 03-04-95 8:03p
INFAL8 O04 6,412 03-04-95 8:03p
INFAL1 O05 10,510 03-05-95 10:58p
INFAL2 O05 14,750 03-05-95 11:00p
INFAL3 O05 1,605 03-05-95 11:01p
INFAL6 O05 2,797 03-05-95 11:08p
INFAL7 O05 5,070 03-05-95 11:10p
INFAL0 O05 7,665 03-05-95 11:11p
INFAL2 O06 5,942 03-06-95 7:12p
INFAL7 O06 3,344 03-06-95 7:22p
INFAL1 O07 3,158 03-07-95 7:56a
INFAL3 O07 2,066 03-07-95 7:58a
INFAL10 O07 2,866 03-07-95 11:47a
INFAL20 O07 10,481 03-07-95 10:22p
INFAL2 O13 1,493 03-13-95 7:47p
INFAL 5C2 2,671 03-14-95 1:40p
INFAL4 O15 12,774 03-15-95 3:00p
INFAL 5C3 787 03-16-95 11:46a
INFAL4 O18 2,833 03-18-95 1:55p
INFAL2 O18 2,880 03-18-95 2:28p
INFAL3 O29 1,422 03-29-95 11:20a
INFAL1 O30 2,801 03-30-95 12:45p
INFAL O31 11,494 03-31-95 7:09p
INFAL P06 2,454 04-06-95 10:16a
INFAL 5E1 6,373 05-02-95 9:32p
INFAL 5E4 8,423 05-30-95 11:06p
DIR DIR 0 10-09-95 1:03p
47 file(s) 210,295 bytes
80,314,368 bytes free
> From: Peter_Tamas@bcon.com (Peter Tamas)
> Send reply to: Peter_Tamas@bcon.com
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: infalibility thread request
> Date sent: 17 Dec 1995 19:13:43 GMT
> Organization: BCON
> I've been a wall flower on the list for about four months and would like to
> take a run at the infallibility question. Rather than begin with my partial
> collection of posts on the thread, I'd like to have the whole picture before
> I opened my ignorant mouth. So, if anybody has archived this thread
> (infalibility of the House of Justice) I'd appreciate a copy.
>
> Please don't expect quick turn around..I've done a bunch of this sort of
> stuff at school and it generally takes me a while to come up with a
> reasonable set of questions.
>
> thanks
>
> -Peter Tamas
>
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 17:33:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: ZUHURU'L-HAQQ -- NSA
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Chrs Buck wrote: I submit that Fadil's later work ought to be published
(vols. 4 & 5), beginning with an abridged translation of vols. 4 & 5.
I second this proposal both for its intellectual and historical
significance and as as way of providing some justice in this unfortunate
affair.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * Old musicians never die, they just decompose.
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 17:33:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Teaching Christians
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I am sorry for posting this twice, but in my offline reader it is very easy
to end up putting the wrong subject header on my posts. My original post
listed the subject as Teaching Christians which I felt might not be read by
the appropriate parties.
Dear Robert,
Robert Johnson: "Any intellectual position that is not moderate is untrue."
Dann May: Including this one?
RJ: The Darwinistic viewpoint expresses itself in anti-religious
forms.
DM: It doesn t necessarily have to, see process philosophy.
RJ: Dann, Robert S and Linda (et al) express their positions on
evolution in extreme ways. That is: if yer not with Darwin yer a
fundamentalist and think the world was made in seven days.
DM: I think you have misread me.
I didn't state my extreme allegiance in Darwinism, almost no philosopher or
scientist does. Modern evolutionary theory has moved considerably past
Darwin's original theory. I argued that the universe is in process -- is
dynamic, evolving, and ever-changing -- and suggested that process
philosophy and theology might come to our aid in understanding
Abdu'l-Baha's remarks on evolution. Henri Bergson (1859-1941), a French
philosopher, was writing on the subject at about the same time as
Abdu'l-Baha, and Jack McLean tells me that they even met.
Bergson was one of the most popular and often read philosophers of his day.
He inspired such thinkers as Alfred Whitehead, Gabriel Marcel, Jacques
Maritain, and won acclaim from the American philosophers John Dewey and
William James, as well as considerable praise from Carl Jung. The Nobel
laureate in chemistry Ilya Prigogine credits Bergson as a great influence
on his own work in oscillating chemical reactions (see _Order out of Chaos:
Man s New Dialogue with Nature_, 1984).
Bergson was a critic of two extremes in the then current evolutionary
debate: one being neo-Darwinism, especially mechanistic explanations of
evolution, the other, neo-Lamarkian theories. In other words, he criticized
both mechanistic and teleological theories, and offered what he thought was
a more tenable alternative. Bergson argues in _Creative Evolution_ (1911),
that matter embodies or contains within in itself what he calls _elan
vital_, "the vital impetus" or "principle," "the life force" or life
potentiality that "drives" or gives rise to the very emergence of life on
this planet. This vital principle also impels the evolutionary process to
unfold all of its potentiality in the rich and varied diversity of living
creatures we now see around us. Bergson goes on to argue that consciousness
was always a potentiality within the elan vital and this is what drove the
evolutionary process to eventually bring forth human beings. This might be
one way to interpret Abdu'l-Baha's remarks about "man always being man." In
other words, if consciousness is one of our distinguishing features (what
makes us human), then we could say that we were always potentially present
in the universe, like the genetic encoding of the mature oak tree in the
seed, to use Aristotle's example. The oak tree, like human beings, must
pass through many stages before becoming the mature acorn bearing tree --
but in some profound sense, the mature tree is always "present" in the seed
and in the process, just as human beings could be seen to be always
"present" in the evolutionary process, and in fact being part of the
impetus for the process.
Bergson specialist Pete Gunter (one of my professors at the University of
North Texas) writes: "The evolutionary impetus, as Bergson describes it,
contains within itself an infinity of potentialities, but in a state of
mutual interpenetration. Through its interaction with matter, however, this
impetus has divided in three main directions: the plants, which exist in
vegetative stupor; the arthropods (insects, spiders, crabs, etc.) whose
mode of life is instinctive; and the vertebrates (whose _modus vivendi_ is
"intelligence") culminat ing in the higher primates and man ("Introduction
to the UPA Edition" of _Creative Evolution_, pp. xxxiii-iv).
While Bergson is usually labeled as an "emergent naturalist," his ideas can
be modified to include a more theistic or religious approach. For example,
the elan vital could be seen as the life force (or spirit) that "God"
places in the very core of all matter -- at the heart of every atom or
subatomic particle, or alternatively, it is the process by which God
"begins" the creative act.
I await comment, as I feel such ideas have some potential for dealing with
the difficult area of `Abdu l-Baha s comments about evolution.
PS. A personal note. One reason I never became a Christian was its
anti-scientific stand, especially when it came to evolution. The Baha i
Faith attracted my attention because Baha is claimed to uphold the theory
of evolution as well as the principle of the harmony of science and
religion. My training in paleontology and paleoecology (BS and MS degrees
from the University of Washington and six years of exploration geology with
the Standard Oil Company), however, led me to question the commonly held
explana tions of Abdu l-Baha s discussion of evolution. Such explanations
as well as simplistic readings of Abdu l-Baha simply don t fit very well
with modern evolutionary theory, nor with the contributions made in the
area of the philosophy of science.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * All human beings have an innate urge to know. Aristotle
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Lay Baha`is?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:03:17 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
A posting today which referred to *"lay Baha'is"* and criticized such
individuals for interfering with certain expressions of academic Baha'i
scholarship disturbed me greatly. As an academic who has done some
research related to the Faith, I have no desire to be considered a
*professional Baha'i*, whatever that might be, and, personally, would
never choose to refer to any of my fellow believers as *"lay Baha'is."*
A concern I and others have periodically had is that there may be an
attempt to bring about a certain type of Baha'i intellectual hegemony.
Postings like the one we saw today renewed this concern in my mind.
In the Baha'i community, there are *no professional Baha'is*, in the
sense of a career clergy who are authorized to act as interpreters or
expounders of the text to other believers, and, thus, there can be *no*
*"lay Baha'is."*
Regards to all,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Address: Department of Sociology, Johnson County Community College *
* 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@jccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet); *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums);UWMG94A (Prod.);*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff); *
* RealityDude (MSN);Realityman19 (CNet);Realityman (Interchange) *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:17:44 +1300 (NZDT)
To: Dave10018@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: EVOLUTION
Dear Dave,
With friends like you who needs enemies!! ;-} Couldn't you find
something nice -- even if untrue -- to say about me, just as Juan was able
to about John this morning. C'mon buddy, I NEED yer support here!
Robert (sparrow squawking to buckshot) Johnston...
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"