---

From spurushotma@brahma.hcla.comSat Apr 13 13:04:34 1996
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 69 9:00:00 PDT
From: spurushotma@brahma.hcla.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: To Future Generations

Dear friends,

As this is a very dynamic Faith and we learn and evolve
from generation to generation ... I would like to make
a plea to future generations of Baha'is as they take
on the many tasks of service to the Faith, both as members
of Institutions and as individuals, on something
I feel very passionately about:

Please do not ever, ever, ever wherever possible
mix travel arrangements for individual Bahai's
with the work of Institutions of the Faith.

Think about it logically ... why is there a need to??
For future conferences etc, just assume individual Bahai's
either have enough frequent flier points or are friendly
enough with commercial travel agents to figure out their
own travel arrangements. Also, never, ever allow corrupt
useless business people to hid behind the name "Baha'i",
and warn the believers about them.

Both in 1991 and in 1992, on travel teaching trips to
Siberia (where you would think a "Bahai" travel agent
would be helpful) our groups were burned by these "Bahai"
travel agents. In 1993, on a pilgrimage my family was on,
a "Bahai" run travel agency that hid itself behind the Local Spiritual
Assembly of some place in South Carolia made all the believers
pay by cashiers check, when the time came for pilgrimage they said
"Oh ... we couldn't get your tickets, will you please pay again by
credit card". As soon as we got back from pilgrimage they filed for
bankruptcy. Thus, instead of $6,000 for a family pilgrimage,
the total came to $14,000 or so. When my father, a businessman
who has not yet declared as a Baha'i, questioned the travel agent
as to what the ^&$#@^ was going on ... she said:
"You don't have enough Faith that Baha'u'llah will deliver the tickets
to you!!"

Now what the %^^&@$ kind of answer is that to a non-Bahai???????

Luckily he has been fair enough to see in perspective the stupidity
of many of the believers he has encountered over the years,
and still respects the grand picture of the Faith and admires
the honest believers he has met.

So, to sum up:

1. Individual Baha'is ... always do your own travel arrangements
with commercial travel agents who cannot hide behind anything and
who know they can have the %^&*(@ sued out of them if they mess
around with you.

2. Institutions ... never let Baha'i travel agents hide behind you.
Where possible let believers do their own travel. Much better to
spend the time and energy on other things rather than arranging such
minute details that the believers can do by themselves.

I have incredible contempt for people who use the name "Baha'i" to
hide behind their commercial untrustworthiness. Let it be said
that one of the early believers who I intend to give a piece of
my mind to in the next world is the moron who told Phoebe Hearst that
Abdul Baha needed her money and then pocketed it all himself and
thus disenfrachised her from the Faith. May the wrath of God eternally
descend upon that idiot.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Shastri Purushotma

An individual Baha'i living in 1996, before the
Lesser Peace!!

From jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.eduSat Apr 13 13:05:03 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:31:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joan Jensen
To: DEREK COCKSHUT
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd: Scholarship on equality of women

On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, DEREK COCKSHUT wrote:

> I would be personally obliged if the ladies on Talisman posted what
> they require from Men in the Baha'i Community in order to have equality
> a living reality at the grassroots level as well as elsewhere.

In addition to the excellent examples of 'things' women require from men
in the Baha'i community, I would like to see men experience a paradigm
shift. Just as in junior high school when I first read "Black Like Me",
or when I heard about the Baha'i Faith and actually 'got it'.... the
entire creation came into focus in an entirely new way. I have found
that reading certain feminist literature has done this for me on the topic
of gender relations and equity. I am recommending a few books, and those
of you who take this seriously can read these or others while putting into
practice the suggestions that have been offered.

_In a Different Voice: Psychological Theory and Women's Development_
Carol Gilligan, Harvard University Press, Cambridge MA, 1982.

_Women and Health in America: Historical Readings_
ed. Judith Walzer Leavitt, The University of Wisconsin Press, 1984

_Women's Ways of Knowing: The Development of Self, Voice, and Mind:
Mary Field Belenky, Blythe McVicker Clinchy, Nancy Rule Goldberger, Jill
Mattuck Tarule. Basic Books (A division of HarperCollins Publishers), 1986.

_Race-ing Justice, En-gendering Power: Essays on Anita Hill, Clarence
Thomas, and the Construction of Social Reality_
Ed. Toni Morrison. Pantheon Books, New York. 1992

Warmly, Joan
-----------------------------------------------------------
Joan Jensen
Baltimore, Maryland USA

*******************************************************************
"...love and affinity are the fruits of a gentle disposition,
a pure nature and praiseworthy character..."
Selected Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 287
*******************************************************************



From SBirkland@aol.comSat Apr 13 13:05:43 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:54:05 -0400
From: SBirkland@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Response from the Universal House of Justice

To David Langness

David,

After our discussion together in Los Angeles last month I was surprised and
disappointed that you decided to post your letter, dated March 19, 1996 to
the Universal House of Justice, on Talisman and continue to pursue the matter
in this way. My understanding was that you had decided to focus your energy
in another direction and I agreed that this was the most noble and honorable
approach.

I have just recently received a copy of the letter that the Universal House
of Justice sent to the National Spiritual Assembly in response to your letter
and I am aware that a copy has been sent to you. Is it your intention to
post this response in full on Talisman? If you are not planning to post it,
I will request the National Spiritual Assembly for permission to post it
myself.


Stephen Birkland



Date: Sat, 13 Apr 96 11:29 EST
To: "jrcole@umich.edu"
Subject: A private note

Juan, Allah'u' Abha

I hope you are fine and everything is going well with you.

I read with much interest your posting on the NSA subject and I do agree
totally with all of what you said and myself have the tape and listened to it carefully. I can not say anything about it on Talisman because I am afraid of possible retaliation from the Baha'i administration/institution in . . . and that is why I am writing it in private to you.

I wish I could express my deepest sadness toward the Baha'i administration and the way affairs are being handled. It is really sad and sometimes upsetting that as a Baha'i I can not express my sincere concerns even at the 19th day feasts because if I do that (which I did several times) the LSA calls me to their meeting to put me down and intimidate me ! I am very very upset about that.

They do not know how to handle it and do not listen to anyone either . . .

Let me very briefly to mention afew things that has happened here:

1) LSA has rented some spaces of the Baha'i center to a doctors office and
after some time the doctor sued the LSA and won the case and got paid more than $100,000.00 who paid? well LSA, which means you and I (then they announce we need money but do not say where the money goes).

2) Every month about $25000.00 goes to the local fund (contributions and
renting the hall) and only this month $23000.00 expenses. $10,000.00
salaries only !!! almost every month they are short.

3) About 1700 Baha'is more than 21 years old live in LA and only about 300
participate in the election and there are only two way for a change in the membership of the LSA : Death of someone, and leaving the city.

and many more....

But for all of the above there are questions:

1) How many new beivers every year?
2) Did the spirituality of the community grow?
3) Any deepening classes organized by LSA?

Dear Juan, here membership of the Institutions are *position* only and that we they get respect and recognition.

If I say a word they label me as a covenant braker or something like that and that is a shame. We have to live and just blindly obey and that is why that I just recently resined from the membership of a committee which works under the LSA.

Sorry to take you time with this stuff.



From lwalbrid@indiana.eduSat Apr 13 13:27:18 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:09:14 -0500 (EST)
From: lwalbrid
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: being honest

Linda (the one who is always soft spoken and demure) feels that she
cannot avoid the discussion of women and their position in the Baha'i
Faith.

First, I want to applaud Milissa, Sandy, and Leigh on their forthright
statements. Sugar coating things only works for a little while. Sooner
or later the sugar wears off and your gagging on the hard to swallow
stuff. In my heart of hearts I don't really care who used the word
"exempt" from the UHJ. I think it is merely a way to make the idea more
palatable. We are excluded. Period. And there are many of us who don't
like it. And it is going to become a bigger problem as time goes on and
the world finds it increasingly acceptable to find women in places of power.

Frankly, I can't imagine how Baha'u'llah living in 19th Century Iran
could have advocated having women on the UHJ. It would have been
unthinkable at that time. It also would have caused so much trouble to
have been unimaginable. The Iranian Baha'is faced a great deal of
persecution, from what I understand, because men and women were
socializing together in Baha'i meetings when they should have been
segregated. While I don't want to overgeneralize, I have seen Iranian
women, mostly in the M.E., who even in the past couple of decades, would
not dare to speak up at an Assembly meeting or Feast for fear of
chastizement from their husbands. (Now, I know there are going to be
blasts at me for this statement. However, I know this for a fact - not
just from observation, but because the women told me of their fears.
Certainly this is not a universal situation, but it is indicative of the
fact that speaking up in public has been a real issue for Iranian women.
I am sure there are plenty of people on the list who will object to my
explaining this law in such specifically sociological terms. However,
why is it that we accept the fact that discrimination against women
occurred in past religions because of social conditions but won't accept
the fact that the Baha'i Faith was founded at a time when women in
Iranian society were living in seclusion? I don't understand the difference.

I have shocked people before by my statements that scripture is only a
small part of religion. REligion is a living phenomenon constantly being
shaped by social forces. The Baha'i Faith is no different in this
regard. If you go to Botswana you are going to find a different
expression of the Baha'i Faith than if you are in the U.S. There are a
few basic ideas that serve as unifying factors, but most of the religion
will be pretty much a cultural phenomenon.

I can't help comparing the situation with the Shi'ites with whom I am
working. These are all people who "live with scripture." Of all
Shi'ites, these are the ones most informed about what the ulama teach and
can quote the great ayatollahs about women's place, her "nature," her
limitations, etc. However, in spite of this I see a changing expectation
for women. Some of receiving college educations. Some are slowly
"coming out" and becoming a little more visible. And, what is most
interesting, I am meeting a lot of men who wish to see their wives and
daughters becoming more educated and informed of the world around them.
The fact that they speak so openly to me and deal with me on such equal
terms confirms my belief that, though they might know what their grand
ayatollahs might say about women's inferior station, the fact is that
they are faced with reality and are responding in intelligent, rational
ways to it. Yes, even the turbaned ones that are supposed to be so
backwards.

My point? Well, I guess it is just plod on. There are very good reasons
for modern women to feel unhappy with being excluded from the UHJ. This
is where major decisions are made. After all, everytime there is any
disagreement on Talisman, there are those who want to run to the UHJ and
ask them to solve the problem. So, we turn to the men - always - to
handle the really big issues, don't we? So, I don't think women need to
shut up about this. There are no scietific reasons to think that women
cannot make rational judgements and be just as logical as men. So, we
can just simply go on saying that "this is the law and it can't be
changed," but I don't see how long that sort of attitude is going to
continue in the modern world.

This is so much longer than I expected. Sorry, folks. If Burl and Derek
would let me on their very secret list, I could post all these ideas into
that vaccuum and you would never have to read this stuff. Linda


>


From burlb@bmi.netSat Apr 13 14:17:56 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 96 11:02 PDT
From: Burl Barer
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Women's Problems

Richard asked:
> What is your response when you visit the home of Baha'i friends for
dinner, when both members of the couple are working fulltime, and the female
has worked all day, prepared dinner, and then gets up to clear the table &
do dishes? Do you follow her into the kitchen to help? Do you follow if her
husband does not?


HA HA HA! Yes, I did follow the wife into the kitchen and offered to help
and was promptly told that in "their culture" (they were not Americans) that
meant that I wanted to have sex with his wife and that I should behave
myself and go back into the other room and smoke a cigar or do something
else masculine like argue politics. So much for attempting to be courteous!

It is always wise to find out, if possible, what is appropriate behaviour
even when one is attempting to be helpfull. As for having sex with his wife
(in the kitchen, no less) the idea had honestly not occured to me -- at
least not until they brought it up -- similar to when Ranger Bob told the
Baha'i youth at Summer School never to toss their towels over the cabin's
support beam and then swing from the towel. The kids had never thought of it
and were thrilled that Ranger Bob had so many clever ideas!

I, however, neither swung from the beam nor in the kitchen.

Burl
*************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer is still only $19.95 and may be ordered from any
bookstore. ISBN#: 1-56901-815-4 Buy Yours Today!
********************


From burlb@bmi.netSat Apr 13 14:18:15 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 96 11:03 PDT
From: Burl Barer
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Crimson Ark

Important serious question: why is the ark crimson? What does that color
denote? What does it mean?

Please reply ASAP direct to me if you know the answer.

Thanks!

Burl Barer
*************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer is still only $19.95 and may be ordered from any
bookstore. ISBN#: 1-56901-815-4 Buy Yours Today!
********************



From jrcole@umich.eduSat Apr 13 17:48:01 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:27:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Bardic Runes



For those Talismanians who enjoy a good Fantasy story, I want to recommend
*Bardic Runes*, a wonderful "little magazine". The subscription is $10
for three issues.

checks should be made out to the editor, our fellow Talismanian Michael
McKenny and sent to:

424 Cambridge Street, S.
Ottawa, ON K1S 4H5
Canada

Bardic Runes has a light touch and much whimsy, and no dark notes.

Number 11 (stand-alone cost, $4), has a short story about the ancient
Persian figures Faridun and the Simurgh by a midwestern Historian who
publishes under the nom de plume of Sean Durward :-)


enjoy!


Juan Cole

From L Sat Apr 13 17:48:28 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:30:33 +0200 (MET DST)
From: L
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd: Scholarship on equality of women


>_In a Different Voice: Psychological Theory and Women's Development_
>Carol Gilligan, Harvard University Press, Cambridge MA, 1982.

This book has been roundly and deservedly critiqued. Without looking very
hard I have come across about 20 very well written and thorough critiques.
This is not to say that the book does not have its good points. It just
does not have enough good points to have acquired its cult status. For
those of you who are interested, you can begin your independent
investigation with the *Signs* issue that was entirely devoted to critiquing it.

Sincerely,

(Dr.) L





From jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.eduSat Apr 13 17:54:06 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:11:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joan Jensen
To: Burl Barer
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Breast Feeding


Dear Dr Burl,

Now you have entered an area of interest to me ... breastfeeding.

Indeed, men can lactate, and lactation can be enhanced by the addition of
certain hormones. The only limitation appears to be on the quantity of
milk that men's admittedly smaller amount of breast-tissue can produce.

And I felt, while breastfeeding my infants, a most incredible sense of
unity and love that expanded to include the entire world. Whew!
I do pity men, who cannot experience this joy.

But the point I get from your post is; only through examining both
the differences and similarities between women and men will we learn
enough to ask the right research questions. How else will the reason for
women's exclusion/exemption from serving on the Universal House of
Justice become known, unless we ask the right questions and explore the
implications of similarities and differences in decision-making processes,
for example.

My dissertation research is a tiny step in this direction.
Coincidentally enough, I am examining women's decision-making about
breastfeeding. Why do women make the decision to breastfeed vs formula
feed? Preliminary analysis of the data supports Carol Gilligan's
framework of differences between women's and men's decision-making and
ethical frameworks. Briefly, men perceive things in a hierarchical or
linear arrangement, women as networks of affiliation and connection. Men
weigh things mathematically, one-up and one-down, black or white,
this.... or that; while women consider the impact of any action upon the
entire network of relationships.

If breastfeeding can be considered one of the powerful bonding experiences
of humanity, and healthier for both infant and mother, why don't most women
breastfeed?

Breasts have come to symbolize (in these United States) something sexual
rather than merely practical. As such, when a woman exposes her breasts
in public in order to breastfeed her infant, she is also exposing herself
and her infant to verbal abuse and actual physical danger. Women have
asked me what they are supposed to do if they are at the bus stop
breastfeeding, and a man walks up and begins to make sexually suggestive
remarks ("Hey, baby, how about giving me some?") Her male partner
may also object to her breastfeeding in public, because he does not want
other men to see 'his' partner's breasts. Thus the woman must weigh
the benefit of bonding and improved physical and mental and emotional
development of her infant against the potential harm to herself and
her infant from men, the scorn of some women who have absorbed these
values, and her continuing relationship with her male partner and the
impact THAT relationship will have on her and the infant. Many women
have told me that even if they are no longer involved with their baby's
father, the father himself still wants to be part of the infant's life.
But if she is breastfeeding, how can he take the infant for the weekend
to his house? For this infant, is bonding with its mother and the
value of breastmilk itself enough to compensate with losing the baby's
father and his extended family from involvement in its life?

Women's decision-making on this and other issues is very complex, and
Gilligan has documented in her research similar complex differences
between women's and men's thinking processes. The differences between
men's and women's mental processes that she discusses indicates to ME
that WOMEN would be more 'qualified' than men to serve on all
consultative bodies.

Thus the mystery deepens. What else do we need to find out, what other
questions can we ask, to understand this law?

Warmly, Joan
-----------------------------------------------------------
Joan Jensen
Baltimore, Maryland USA

*******************************************************************
"...love and affinity are the fruits of a gentle disposition,
a pure nature and praiseworthy character..."
Selected Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 287
*******************************************************************



From Chris@baha.demon.co.ukSat Apr 13 17:54:48 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:03:14 +0100
From: Maggie Manvell
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Unsubscribe

I have been asked by my wife to unsubscribe her from this list. Before
doing so, I would like to make a couple of comments.

Thank-you to Juan Cole and others for some excellent translation (esp.
Ode to the Dove). We will miss these gems and similar insights into
unexplored territory.

Thank-you to those of you who have helped deepen her understanding of
the Writings.

So why are we pulling out?

This group seems to have sunk to the level of the sort of backbiting and
in-fighting that I see in some of the public newsgroups. It seems to be
being used to pass personal banter between individuals which is neither
relevant to the Faith nor of interest to anyone but the individuals
themselves. We see parodying of the Writings in the form of fake
translations, which is, IMO, far from respectful to Baha'u'llah.

That is not to say that there are not very good posts on Talisman, but
they are so hidden among the chaff that she has given up in
exasperation. Her parting comment is "Why aren't these people expending
their time trying to teach the Faith? Why not look outwards instead of
looking inwards?"


Chris Manvell, p.p. Maggie (who is away at the present time).
--
===========================================================================
Chris Manvell, Isle of Skye, Scotland.
O SON OF BEING! With the hands of power I made thee and with the fingers of
strength I created thee; and within thee have I placed the essence of My
light. Be thou content with it and seek naught else, for My work is perfect
and My command is binding. Question it not, nor have a doubt thereof.
(Baha'u'llah: Arabic Hidden Words, No.12)

From nineteen@onramp.netSat Apr 13 17:55:03 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 96 15:47:52 -0500
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: Burl Barer , Talisman
Subject: Re: Women's Problems

> HA HA HA! Yes, I did follow the wife into the kitchen and offered to help
>and was promptly told that in "their culture" (they were not Americans) that
>meant that I wanted to have sex with his wife and that I should behave
>myself and go back into the other room and smoke a cigar or do something
>else masculine like argue politics. So much for attempting to be courteous!


At Bosche I remember Sandy Fotos (I believe) describing you as a stud.
So maybe its not simply your American cultural habits that troubled the
poor man.

Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePage "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



From burlb@bmi.netSat Apr 13 17:55:38 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 96 13:50 PDT
From: Burl Barer
To: Joan Jensen
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Breast Feeding

Joan Jensen, affable post-lactate researcher, wrote:
As such, when a woman exposes her breasts
>in public in order to breastfeed her infant, she is also exposing herself
>and her infant to verbal abuse and actual physical danger.
Burl sez:

At the 1974 Hawaii Youth Conference there was a young woman breast feeding
her baby. The young woman was most attractive and it was difficult not to
"stare" be ye male or female. Well, this unnerved some of the Baha'is (the
feeding not the looking) and Mrs. Guardian (ok, Madame Rabbani) was asked to
say something "about that young girl breast feeding." Well, as you can
guess, they didn't tell her what to say and figured that their request that
she "say something" conveyed that they wanted her to chastise her. Their
collective jaw dropped as Madame Rabbani took the stage, the microphone,
called everyone's attention to the young girls exposed breats and the
suckling child and praised her extensively for breast feeding her baby and
had everyone look at her and her child with admiration and a round of
applause. That, as they say, settled that.

Burl (raised on Pet Condensed Evaporated Milk which is about 90% sugar)
*************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer is still only $19.95 and may be ordered from any
bookstore. ISBN#: 1-56901-815-4 Buy Yours Today!
Visit my new home page: www.bmi.net/outlaw/burl.html
********************


From gladius@portal.caSat Apr 13 17:55:57 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:31:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Linda de Gonzalez
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Women's Problems

Helping with dishes = sex ??? Far out. I'll have to tell my husband that.
He'll be SO pleased.

Seriously, though, while I understand completely that it might have been
taken amiss in that household for you to do "domestic duties" , were you
able to share your own cultural perspective on this domestic duty with the
family in question? Did you inform them that, in their new country, some of
their assumptions about behavior might not be correct?

It's always amazing to me (okay, I amaze easily) the number of ways in which
humans justify their behavior as being "culturally appropriate" or not. In
that particular family, it is "culturally inappropriate" for a non-family
man to help with the dishes. Here's a truly disgusting example of that kind
of thinking carried too far.

And worse yet, it's a true story.

In 1987 or 88 (okay okay I'll look it up later), a 13-year-old Inuit girl in
Baker Lake, NWT, had sex (we don't know whether or not she consented, you'll
see why later) with 3 young Inuit men, aged 19 to 22. The girl was
"developmentally delayed", and had a mental age of about 6 or 7. The men
were charged with statutory rape, i.e. sex with someone under 14 years of
age. When the case came to court, the 3 young men got 3-month jail
sentences. The reason? The (white) judge (I won't name him publicly, you can
read the NWT Gazette if you want the info) stated that, in the Inuit
culture, girls were "ready" for marriage and sex at a much earlier age, and
that the statutory rape laws that applied to the rest of Canada were
"culturally inappropriate" to the Inuit way of life. You can imagine the
outcry from native women's groups over that.

The only appropriate culture for Baha'is is a culture which supports and
embodies Baha'i principles. If you must change your cultural beliefs for
Baha'i beliefs, well guess what personal transformation is all about. And
(news flash) the consultation will be painful.
Linda de Gonzalez
Gladius Productions


From gladius@portal.caSat Apr 13 17:56:04 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:31:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Linda de Gonzalez
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Breastfeeding

You *want* to be up half the night with a squirming, squalling, puking baby
chewing on your tender nipples? Be my guest. I'm happy to share this
"spiritual bonding" experience.

Having nursed 3 babies of my own, and a couple of friends' babies while I
was babysitting them, I can tell you that it's tough work. There are nice
bits, after all, you get to sit down or lie down while you are doing this,
and you can sing or read or pray at the same time. Sometimes the baby might
smile at you (in between puking all over your shoulder, biting you, beating
at your breast with tiny fists in an effort to make the milk come down
faster), and you feel warm & fuzzy all over. Then you realize the diaper
leaked!!!

I wish men *would* nurse babies too. I might not have spent 10 years in a
state of sleep deprivation if that were the case.

Linda de Gonzalez
Gladius Productions


From jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.eduSat Apr 13 20:54:45 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:25:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joan Jensen
To: L
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd: Scholarship on equality of women

On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, L wrote:

>> _In a Different Voice: Psychological Theory and Women's Development_
>> Carol Gilligan, Harvard University Press, Cambridge MA, 1982.

> This book has been roundly and deservedly critiqued.

Dear L,

Its been six years since I delved into the feminist literature. Perhaps
you could recommend some books that reflect more current concerns and
understandings of the similarities and differences between women and men.

Warmly, Joan
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Joan Jensen
Baltimore, Maryland USA

*******************************************************************
"...love and affinity are the fruits of a gentle disposition,
a pure nature and praiseworthy character..."
Selected Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 287
*******************************************************************


From sfotos@logosintl.comSat Apr 13 20:55:15 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 07:30:44 +0900 (JST)
From: Sandra Fotos
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Breast Feeding

Dr Burl asks,

>Why are not men encouraged to breast feed babies? Some of you may think
>that men cannot breast feed babies because men are lactose free, sort of
>like Nucoa Margarine, but that is not *always* true. In fact, it is
>documented that men can and have breast fed babies in situations where the
>mother has died and it was imperative that the baby be fed -- "miraculously"
>the male began to lactate and the newborn lived. So...this shows that men
>can breast feed. Why then are we kept from participating in this intense
>bonding with our children?

**********************

It's hard to add to Joan's excellent discussion of breast feeding, but here
is a recent development that Dr. Burl might be interested in:

There are, in fact, "breast feeding packs" for men which enable them to
feed their babies in a simulated nursing manner. The packs are like baby
bottles and contain milk fed to the baby through a nipple but are worn on
the man's chest, are shaped like breasts, and have the feeding nipple in
the position where an actual breast nipple would be.

Several men I know have used this to feed their babies while the mother was
working (she expressed breast milk which was then used to fill the pack)
and these men have an especially close and loving relationship with their
children.

However, this is in Japan--where the breast is not a fetish item and breast
feeding is the norm. How would such a thing go down in the US, a place
where a popular restaurant chain is named "Hooters" and many women feel
they must insert toxic, grapefruit-shaped masses of silicon into their
breasts in order to receive male attention?

(Note: at a women's conference, an Indian psychologist suggested that the
reason why many Americans have a breast obsession is because the generation
born during and after WWII was NOT breast fed!)

While I was in Seattle, Hannah and I discussed gender differences and
agreed that gender should be viewed as a continuum rather than a bipolar
phenomenon. 'Abdu'l-Baha indicates this when he said that this is the day
when women's qualities are more desirable then men's--suggesting that men
also have these feminine qualities within them but need to draw them out
and express them.

In the future, "gender" will no doubt be very different that it is today.
As Sheila Banani suggests, the next Manifestation will clarify those things
that are troubling us at present about the role of women, but even before
then we'll see women at all levels of decision making and technological
institutions and men in the caretaking professions--even as wet nurses!


Best,
Sandy

**********************************
Sandra S. Fotos, Ed.D.
Associate Professor of English
Senshu University
2-1-1 Higashi Mita
Tama-ku, Kawasaki-shi
Kanagawa-ken 214, Japan

***********************************

All that which ye potentially possess can,
however, be manifested only as a result of your
own volition.

Baha'u'llah

************************************



From jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.eduSat Apr 13 20:55:31 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:50:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joan Jensen
To: Linda de Gonzalez
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Women's Problems/cultural beliefs


Dear Linda,

Thanks for your sad story about the 13-year-old Inuit girl in Baker Lake,
NWT. I think it gives us one illustration of the relative
merits/demerits of holding cultural beliefs inviolate, even when they
violate members of that culture. Female genital mutilation is another
such sad story.

Here's another story, a little lighter, that was shared by the prof in a
class I took a few years ago on tropical environmental health. It seems
that a new type of out-house had been developed that was simple to
construct, odor-free, easy to maintain, and very private (for the
specifications, email me privately and I'll share). Dr. Shiff and
his group wanted to offer them for use in a certain village. He was told
in no uncertain terms that the people of that village would never accept
them, because men and women would NOT share such a facility, and building
two per household was not economically feasible. Well, they found a
family who agreed to let them build one, and soon EVERY household in
the village wanted one. The cultural constraint that men and women could
not eliminate bodily wastes in the same place was found to be irrelevant
to the villagers. You see, it was first formulated to protect the privacy
of individuals, but this new out-house did that effectively AND saved
minutes or hours a day because the individual's didn't have to walk
distances outside the village for the privacy they wanted. What was
thought to be an inviolate 'cultural constraint' to outsiders was easily
reinterpreted by the ones involved, since the underlying rationale was
respected.

Warmly, Joan
------------------------------------------------------------------
Joan Jensen
Baltimore, Maryland USA

*******************************************************************
"...love and affinity are the fruits of a gentle disposition,
a pure nature and praiseworthy character..."
Selected Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 287
*******************************************************************


From meghas@sparcom.comSat Apr 13 20:56:29 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 96 08:05 PDT
From: Megha Shyam
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: spurushotma@brahma.hcla.com
Subject: Re: To Future Generations

At , you wrote:
>Dear friends,
>
>As this is a very dynamic Faith and we learn and evolve
>from generation to generation ... I would like to make
>a plea to future generations of Baha'is as they take
>on the many tasks of service to the Faith, both as members
>of Institutions and as individuals, on something
>I feel very passionately about:
>
>Please do not ever, ever, ever wherever possible
>mix travel arrangements for individual Bahai's
>with the work of Institutions of the Faith.
>
>Think about it logically ... why is there a need to??
>For future conferences etc, just assume individual Bahai's
>either have enough frequent flier points or are friendly
>enough with commercial travel agents to figure out their
>own travel arrangements. Also, never, ever allow corrupt
>useless business people to hid behind the name "Baha'i",
>and warn the believers about them.
>
>Both in 1991 and in 1992, on travel teaching trips to
>Siberia (where you would think a "Bahai" travel agent
>would be helpful) our groups were burned by these "Bahai"
>travel agents. In 1993, on a pilgrimage my family was on,
>a "Bahai" run travel agency that hid itself behind the Local Spiritual
>Assembly of some place in South Carolia made all the believers
>pay by cashiers check, when the time came for pilgrimage they said
>"Oh ... we couldn't get your tickets, will you please pay again by
>credit card". As soon as we got back from pilgrimage they filed for
>bankruptcy. Thus, instead of $6,000 for a family pilgrimage,
>the total came to $14,000 or so. When my father, a businessman
>who has not yet declared as a Baha'i, questioned the travel agent
>as to what the ^&$#@^ was going on ... she said:
>"You don't have enough Faith that Baha'u'llah will deliver the tickets
>to you!!"
>
>Now what the %^^&@$ kind of answer is that to a non-Bahai???????
>
>Luckily he has been fair enough to see in perspective the stupidity
>of many of the believers he has encountered over the years,
>and still respects the grand picture of the Faith and admires
>the honest believers he has met.
>
>So, to sum up:
>
>1. Individual Baha'is ... always do your own travel arrangements
>with commercial travel agents who cannot hide behind anything and
>who know they can have the %^&*(@ sued out of them if they mess
>around with you.
>
>2. Institutions ... never let Baha'i travel agents hide behind you.
>Where possible let believers do their own travel. Much better to
>spend the time and energy on other things rather than arranging such
>minute details that the believers can do by themselves.
>
>I have incredible contempt for people who use the name "Baha'i" to
>hide behind their commercial untrustworthiness. Let it be said
>that one of the early believers who I intend to give a piece of
>my mind to in the next world is the moron who told Phoebe Hearst that
>Abdul Baha needed her money and then pocketed it all himself and
>thus disenfrachised her from the Faith. May the wrath of God eternally
>descend upon that idiot.
>
>Thank you.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Shastri Purushotma
>
>An individual Baha'i living in 1996, before the
>Lesser Peace!!
>
>


Dear friends:


The expensive lesson I learnt a long time ago is to deal with arrangements
whether travel, hotels, or any other directly in a upfront business like
manner.
If I sensed any doubts, then my responbse was immediatel; yes I can be
demanding at times, but I was not willing to put up with any sort of
iurregularity.
I wanted full information all the time.

Some of this I guess comes from the many travel agents constantly
recommended to me by east indian friends on any travel to India. Many of
these travel agents were naive or outright crooks with no experience in
international
travel. They get their business by saving you $ 50 from their competition
at the expense
of pretty lousy service. We get sucked in by the $ 50 saving without thinking
of the overall travel experience.

In a similar vain, if baha'is like to go into a business venture together,
believe me, it is
best to spend the $ 300-400 with a lawyer and set up a set of principles
that outline the
nature of the business arrangement. I have seen many a behavior by Baha'is who
took full advantage of as an employee, and many of them had to be involuntarily
terminated. It brought great agony to me as an employer and discredited the
Faith
by their behavior.

While I do not want to be an alarmist, and want to have a basic sense of
trust in people,
my ground rules have been substantially changed by experiences of hiring
Baha'is.
(Over a period of 6 years I hired 11 people - none are working for me now;
best experiences
were with 2; one was my wife who worked for 6 months early in our company's
history
and a second one was an engineer who helped us a great deal for nearly four
years; 4 quit and
moved on, while the rest had to be involuntarily terminated). The largest
turnover in
our employment history is from Baha'is working here. I guess I must be
really a tough
boss!

I share this with the hope that others who are in a position to employ
people keep an eye and
always expect the best from everyone in the organization with no favoritism
shown to Baha'i
employees. That is what keeps your integrity as a Baha'i with the rest of
the employees in the
organization.

Any way I needed to get this off my chest.

Megha Shyam






From a003@lehigh.eduSat Apr 13 20:56:57 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:45:43 EDT
From: a003@lehigh.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Science & Religion

Dear Terry,

Your posting all seems to make very much sense to me. Let's see if I've
got it.

Science (reason) is a means to knowledge of *being's* self-revealing.
Revelation is also a means. You equate Science with the masculine,
inquisitive principle and Revelation with the feminine receiving
principle.

In other words, Newton cannot tell us that for every action there is an
opposite and equal reaction without revealing something Divine. On the
other hand, Baha'u'llah cannot reveal that, "the earth is but one country
and mankind it's citizens," without revealing social, and even biological
truth...we are all descended from one woman several thousand years ago.

Three questions:

1. If all scientists are involved with revealing "the
divine", is there something "more divine" than something else?

In drama,
we can see the action of the hero in say,*Field of Dreams*, and recognize
the story is not about baseball. It is about the inner feminine, love of
beauty, spiritual action, in a world of material exigencies, and that this
is the process of spiritualizing our world...But how does this story
compare to that of the martyrdom of Badi? or Baha'u'llah's Revelation. It
is not the story of Baseball that is going to unite mankind.
Is there a parallel in science to that of literature, drama? Many
modern stories have no room for transcendence. They are simply melodramas
heading towards violence or sex. As Jung says, they are not transparent
to transcendence. Is science caught in the same bubble of consciousness?

3. How do we bring the sense of the Divine into that Bubble?

Your Baha'i brother, and hoping you don't mind me asking. I could really use
some help here.
Bill



*-----------------------------------------------------------*
* Phone:610-867-9251 William George *
* Theatre Artist *
* 908 E. 5th. St. *
* Bethlehem, Pa 18015 U.S.A. *
*___________________________________________________________*

From JGalata@aol.comSat Apr 13 20:57:34 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:39:34 -0400
From: JGalata@aol.com
To: meghas@sparcom.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: spurushotma@brahma.hcla.com
Subject: Re: To Future Generations

I just read my first Talisman message.. ooooooooo.. I just love honest
passion and passionate honesty!!! Can't wait to read more messages!

Baha'u'llah has stated that He has COME TO EXALT THE LOWLY. When I first
meet a Baha'i I've never met before..Until I see first hand some definitive
sign of an exalted spirit, mind, heart and energy..., I don't give my trust
to that lowly person. Once I see some evidence of humble exaltation... I give
my 100% trust to and in that exalted soul...but if that particular Baha'i
abuses my very precious and valuable sense of trust... back to the LOWLY BIN
they go! That's how I keep healthy and having fun running around within this
intercultural group of exalted lowly souls!

Finally, for all the Baha'is who have been misused by Baha'is regarding
travel... just think of how Baha'is disrespected the esteemed Universal
House of Justice.... That Divine Institution had- to my understanding - pick
up the tab in the $millions for the Baha'is who attended the World Congress
in New York but who didn't pay their own bills...God help any of us whom the
HOUSE deems "back to the lowly bin!"
Joseph Andrejchak Galata

From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzSat Apr 13 20:57:51 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:57:59 +1200
From: Golden Eagle
To: lwalbrid , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: being honest


Linda wrote:

>First, I want to applaud Milissa, Sandy, and Leigh on their forthright
>statements.
>Frankly, I can't imagine how Baha'u'llah living in 19th Century Iran
>could have advocated having women on the UHJ.


If I were a jockey, I'd be inclined to see the world with bow-legs, and
always dream of horses....

Robert.



From jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.eduSun Apr 14 12:42:04 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 21:16:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joan Jensen
To: belove@sover.net
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: finding the Question


Dear Philip,

Your posting on 10 April about group crisis, growth, and framing the
question was very profound. The concepts you shared can be used for the
burning questions in my mind regarding the status of women and world peace,
and differences between women and men.

> Our task is to find The Question.

I speculate it will be difficult if not impossible to find the question,
let alone the answers to the question, until we come much further in
putting into practice in our personal and community lives the teachings
about the equality of women and men. How else will we know which
differences are imposed and which are innate? Which are desirable and
which are a barrier? Until we are obedient in this and other ways,
the truth may remain hidden.

Warmly, Joan
-----------------------------------------------------------
Joan Jensen
Baltimore, Maryland USA

*******************************************************************
"...love and affinity are the fruits of a gentle disposition,
a pure nature and praiseworthy character..."
Selected Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 287
*******************************************************************




From robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nzSun Apr 14 12:42:23 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:23:24 +1200
From: Golden Eagle
To: l.droege@genie.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: women's problems


Dear Leigh,

>Um, Robert?
>Maybe you should go back and read sandy's and Milissa's posts again?
>Carefully?
>Nobody is asking men to solve women's problems;


I read Sandy's letter again, and I find no reason to change my letter...
Further, it seems to me to be old-world sexist to ask men -- because
they're supposed to be implicated in the "crime" (real or imagined) -- to
solve women's problems. I say: if you've got a problem, go figure it out
-- alone or in amicable consultation with others: don't try to solve by
engaging in utterly futile bitterly contested rancorous vindictive
treacherous weak-willed no-win contests. ;-\}

I am sure that men-blamers/haters do find men allies.... and I am very
pleased for them that this is the case... But I am not one of those
allies.

>There are two wings to this bird and if one wing is holding the
>other down we ain't even gonna hop, let alone fly.

We will always find an excuse for not accepting personal responsibility.
Men do that too, y'know... Some birds never gonna fly, no matter what.
Too bad.

R





From berny.munro@stonebow.otago.ac.nzSun Apr 14 12:42:38 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:41:06 +1200 (NZST)
From: Berny Munro
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: gender issues

In "Paris Talks" page 161 Abdul-Baha says:

"In some repects women is superior to man. She is more tender-hearted, more
receptive, her intuition is more intense."

In "Dawn of a New Day" page 86 Shoghi Effendi says:

"From the fact that there is no equality of functions between the sexes one
should not, however, infer that either sex is inherently superior or
inferior to the other, or that they are unequal in their rights."

Kia ora koutou

Berny



From jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.eduSun Apr 14 12:43:03 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 23:06:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joan Jensen
To: Sandra Fotos
Cc: John Dale <73043.1540@compuserve.com>, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Subjects We Are Not Discussing/Population Theology


Dear John and Sandy,

The public health take on population control is that it is an important
short-term means of addressing many social and economic problems in the
world.

"The combination of the following six factors is important in
effectively reducing the birth rate: broad-based primary education,
in increase in the income level, improved nutrition, a decline in
infant mortality, a rise in the social position of women, and
decisive governmental action in population policies."
Dr. Saburo Okita
Salas Memorial Lecture, 1988 (quoted in _Health
Research: Essential Link to Equity in Development_)

Except for the last, these are all factors that are implicitly or
explicitly supported by the Writings, and things we can all involve
ourselves in locally and internationally.

Sandy's summary of the situation in economically prosperous nations
is most important.

> Education and population:
> Generally, as education rises, the birthrate falls. This is a combination
> of decreased infant mortality caused by better medical attention, diet,
> etc. plus the entry by women into the work force. Demographics
> was continually on the agenda--when women could read, had health and
> dietary knowledge and access to primary care facilities, birth rates
> dropped, survival rates climbed and remarkable grassroots efforts were
> made to establish schools. Educating the women seemed to be the key to
> all types of economic and social transformation.

In fact, some of the more economically prosperous nations in the world can
only rise to zero populations growth through immigration! The birth rates
alone in those countries is unsufficient to maintain the population at
its current level, despite serious legislative and economic incentives
put in place by the governments to encourage the birth rate.

Thus, when we achieve what Baha'u'llah has directed us to do in our
social development, over-population will not be the problem that
currently overwhelms many of the places of the world.

Pretty fascinating, huh?

Joan
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Joan Jensen
Baltimore, Maryland USA

*******************************************************************
"...love and affinity are the fruits of a gentle disposition,
a pure nature and praiseworthy character..."
Selected Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 287
*******************************************************************


From jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.eduSun Apr 14 12:43:12 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 23:23:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joan Jensen
To: l.droege@genie.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: women's problems


Dear Leigh,

> There are two wings to this bird and if one wing is holding the
> other down we ain't even gonna hop, let alone fly.

Good point. 'Abdu'l-Baha said:
"When men own the equality of women there will be no need
for them to struggle for their rights!" (PT, p. 167)

What can men do to own the equality of women?

Warmly, Joan
-----------------------------------------------------------
Joan Jensen
Baltimore, Maryland USA

*******************************************************************
"...love and affinity are the fruits of a gentle disposition,
a pure nature and praiseworthy character..."
Selected Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 287
*******************************************************************


From Alethinos@aol.comSun Apr 14 12:43:31 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 23:26:16 -0400
From: Alethinos@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Unsubscribe: Now here's a novel thought . . .Women & UHJ

In a message dated 96-04-13 16:34:01 EDT, you write:

>That is not to say that there are not very good posts on Talisman, but
>they are so hidden among the chaff that she has given up in
>exasperation. Her parting comment is "Why aren't these people expending
>their time trying to teach the Faith? Why not look outwards instead of
>looking inwards?"
>
>
>Chris Manvell, p.p. Maggie (who is away at the present time).


What a genuine post. And thanks Linda for once again bringing the whole issue
down from its lofty position up on the mole hill down into the valley of
pathetic, boring rehash of rehashed late 20th century American (white
suburban) women's groaning. God forbid we should try to get past something we
are unable to do a damn thing about, (at least at this time) and GASP! an
even more horrible thought of perhaps at the very least asking ourselves if
we are approaching this *issue* from a completely wrong perspective. Once
again Linda dear you have provided ample evidence of being a scholar still
locked, vice-like - into your own axiology and unable (unwilling) to break
out of its comfortable mesocosmic warmth.

Oh, I'm sorry couch Friberg, I sort of jumped in there without checking in
with you.

When will we move on from this issue-that-is-not-in-our-hands?????? And begin
doing something about those issues that are???


jim harrison

Alethinos@aol.com



From l.droege@genie.comSun Apr 14 12:43:43 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 03:38:00 UTC 0000
From: l.droege@genie.com
To: nineteen@onramp.net
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: women's problems

Richard (and all),
My apologies. This issue is one of my "hot buttons," and I tend to
get a bit, er, intemperate. My perception may indeed be mistaken;
in fact I hope it is, since I have great respect for many members
of Talisman. We shall see.
Leigh

From sfotos@logosintl.comSun Apr 14 12:44:19 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:41:41 +0900 (JST)
From: Sandra Fotos
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: women's problems: this is how it works

Dear Talismans,

During the past few hours, many women who are usually silent on this list
have had a voice. They are asking very important questions and clarifying
their understanding of the role of women in this dispensation. They are
asking how to approach aspects of their beloved Faith so that when the time
comes, and they are standing on the line defending the Blessed Beauty, they
can represent the teachings of the Most Sacred Being ever to walk on this
planet.

The issues are real. The voices are real. The need for answers is real.

In response to their moderate and tentative questions has come verbal abuse
of frightening severity, vicious language directed at people by name.

This is how it works--minorities trying to be heard and when they are, the
abuse comes down. This is how people are silenced.

I take exception to personal abusive attacks against any members of this
list when they are, in good faith, trying to explore issues which are
important to them and are seeking, in consultative fashion, the opinions
and advice of other members.

If some list members see this exploration as threatening, irrelevant, or
uninteresting, they are free to hit the delete button when they see the
subject header or the name of the poster.

The negative remarks made about Linda's socio-historical interpretation of
some of the Writings pertaining to women (giving me and others a useful
handle for explaining those Writings to educated and sceptical seekers)
were saddening and unnecessary.


Sandy


**********************************
Sandra S. Fotos, Ed.D.
Associate Professor of English
Senshu University
2-1-1 Higashi Mita
Tama-ku, Kawasaki-shi
Kanagawa-ken 214, Japan

***********************************

All that which ye potentially possess can,
however, be manifested only as a result of your
own volition.

Baha'u'llah

************************************




From gladius@portal.caSun Apr 14 12:53:00 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:17:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Linda de Gonzalez
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Unsubscribe

Jim Harrison says:
> Once again Linda dear you have provided ample evidence of being a scholar
still
>locked, vice-like - into your own axiology and unable (unwilling) to break
>out of its comfortable mesocosmic warmth

What the heck???? I'm a *receptionist* at a psychiatric clinic. I am not a
scholar.

Furthermore, what the heck is "axiology"??? Is this where I get to take my
trusty axe to Talizenic heads? And yet further more and again, "mesocosmic"???

I never got past Paleozoic.

Sheesh. First Arthur, now they think I actually , like, know something.

Once and for all, it wasn't me, I wasn't here, you can't prove a thing, it
was my evil twin sister. Now can I sleep?

Linda de Gonzalez
Gladius Productions


From derekmc@ix.netcom.comSun Apr 14 12:53:29 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:54:22 -0700
From: DEREK COCKSHUT
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: women's problems: this is how it works,


Dear Talismans,

During the past few hours, many women who are usually silent on this
list
have had a voice. They are asking very important questions and
clarifying
their understanding of the role of women in this dispensation. They are
asking how to approach aspects of their beloved Faith so that when the
time
comes, and they are standing on the line defending the Blessed Beauty,
they
can represent the teachings of the Most Sacred Being ever to walk on
this
planet.

The issues are real. The voices are real. The need for answers is real.

In response to their moderate and tentative questions has come verbal
abuse
of frightening severity, vicious language directed at people by name.

This is how it works--minorities trying to be heard and when they are,
the
abuse comes down. This is how people are silenced.

I take exception to personal abusive attacks against any members of
this
list when they are, in good faith, trying to explore issues which are
important to them and are seeking, in consultative fashion, the
opinions
and advice of other members.

If some list members see this exploration as threatening, irrelevant,
or
uninteresting, they are free to hit the delete button when they see the
subject header or the name of the poster.

The negative remarks made about Linda's socio-historical interpretation
of
some of the Writings pertaining to women (giving me and others a useful
handle for explaining those Writings to educated and sceptical seekers)
were saddening and unnecessary.

Sandy
My dear Sandy
I have noticed the unusual number of postings from the Ladies on the
esteemed Talisman list, I for one believe the Men should listen and
maybe we all both genders can learn a little .By the way the major
complaint women always have: is that men refuse to listen when a woman
has a serious or important point to make.So Gentlemen we might want to
be non-gender typical for once.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut





From gladius@portal.caSun Apr 14 12:53:54 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:20:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Linda de Gonzalez
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re:Re: Women's Problems

On April 13, 1996, "Richard C. Logan" wrote:

>I cannot say I am free of sin....

The whole concept of sin has been abrogated by Baha'u'llah. The point is not
what you have chosen as a course of action in the past. The point is what
you will choose in the future. Or were you being sarcastic??? I couldn't
tell, so I decided to take you seriously.

>My spiritual mother told me that men should step back and support women

Well, she gave you rotten advice. Stand FORWARD and support women.




Linda de Gonzalez
Gladius Productions


From Alethinos@aol.comSun Apr 14 12:54:29 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 03:47:14 -0400
From: Alethinos@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: This will be a tough one to take sitting down (or standing)

I certainly have listened and will continue to women and the problems they
see. I will listen to any human, man or women that speaks with a sincere
heart.

But friends we are wasting valuable time on a situation we can do absolutely
nothing about - not one thing.

And I will remind all here, for the hundreth time, that the accusation
against all the "horrible men" who are supposedly arguing "against" women
being on the UHJ is baseless and either results from a lack of careful
reading or worse calculated misrepresentation on a part of a few.

I, for my part, as well as a number of others have actually been falsely
accused of not wanting women to serve on the UHJ. Find me, at least in any of
my posts, where I have come even remotely close to suggesting this. Please. I
would like to read those words.

You can save yourselves the efforts. You will not find any. What this
*argument* (which is surely what it has become) is about is twofold. The
first is this: we literally do not know the reason for the exclusion of women
- that is if we believe the Master, the Guardian and the UHJ itself. We have
been told that eventually it will become apparent why the exclusion exists.
We have been told, in no uncertain terms by the UHJ that this is THE answer
on the issue. Period. Fine'. We were not asked if that would meet with our
apporval. That is just as it is. And the choice here is quite clear.

And what has been said, when various complaints were made initially, was that
unless one wishes essentially to challenge the UHJ and insist that it is
wrong then we have no alternative, as far as we can see at this time in our
history, but to accept it and go on. So it is a non-issue. An issue is
something that can be dealt with. Within the framework of what it means to be
a Baha'i the matter is settled.

With regard to seekers. To be pefectly honest, if any seeker, man or women is
going to hinge their acceptence of Baha'u'llah on what is, in this era,
essentially a socio-political issue of equality and power (AND PLEASE note
that I am NOT saying here that equality of women and men is not a moral
issue; rather that in this day, with the confusion that reins, a day when all
sense of moral balance and harmony are banished the question of equality has
been turned into one of, essentially,of materialistic concern) - if any
seeker were to rest their entire spiritual future on such a thing, well then,
I could only assume that they still have a long way to go. The Jews had some
real problems with Christ turning aside the Laws. They could not get past
their sad little litmus tests.

The real issue, and it is indeed an issue here at least, is the underlying
*questioning* of the fundamental nature of the Cause on one hand and the
Administrative Order on the other.

I see two very distinct groups, which until now have not been clearly
seperated. The first are those folk, men and women, truly concerned, confused
and angry over this question of women and the UHJ. They have had questions
for years, found things difficult on teaching etc. I have never dismissed the
concern or question irrelevent.

But I have pleaded that we not continue to take up bandwidth here to rehash
it. Two reasons. One, there are more critical issues facing _all_ of us right
now, esp. in America.

The second is that this issue plays into the hands of some who have done
nothing of positive note in moving the Cause forward since I have been here.
They tear into the senior institutions (whom God knows lack serious maturity,
at least here in the States) but their solutions, those that they offer carry
an explicit message that the fundamental nature of Baha'u'llah's Cause is
flawed. They have repeated their denounciations, castigations and
accustations while ignoring all suggestions that might offer solutions that
do not match their apparent agenda. Over and over and over they beat their
chests and cry out that they are the persecuted. Over and over and over they
point fingers, give velied hints about what they have heard but are not
allowed (on pain of cyber-death or worse) to speak of. And even though a good
number of their assesments match up with ones made by others, they will
refuse to actually come together to discover a solution. They are committed
to wailing and slinging terms such as *fascist* at whoever may disagree with
them.

In short they seem to have little or no regard for the Cause of God in
America. They have a personal score to settle. And they will choose any issue
that will cause the most heated emotions. I have yet to see them turn from
their course and truly investigate other avenues of achieving a healthy
community. They dismiss America's spiritual destiny with sniffs of disdain.
They scoff at the notion that they problems we face are due to a lack of
maturity. They rail against those who, quoting the Guardian himself, suggest
that the Administrative Order, let alone the Cause is not merely some cobbled
together, pathetic, late 19th century Persian Constitutional movement. They
scream Fascist!! all over again if it is argued that the Faith in America is
not destined to be some
"one-size-fits-all-liberal-democratic-doesn't-needs-ironing-won't-fade"
religion.

Are these folk covenant-breakers. I sure don't think they are. Not even
close. I have dealt with a good number of CB's and these folks don't fit the
bill. What I think is that they are old warriors who have become terribly
embittered. I think they are blinded by it. I think they struggled mightly,
each in their own way to awaken the American Baha'i Community and failed. Not
for lack of trying, but because of forces arrayed against them that no one
person, or small band could likely overcome. And I think they are stuck.

That is the only reason I stay on Talisman. I have been looking for old
warriors and new for a while now. Talisman has a big concentration of old and
new. But I have esp. been trying to reach the old ones. Because they know how
to fight. They've been there. So have I. There are many battles to be fought.
Many fronts, many skills and talents needed. But there is only one War. And
in this country at least our forces are small, scattered and terribly
depressed. We cannot win this way. Some would like to believe that this war
is far into the future. But it isn't. It is right here, right now. We are all
growing old and dying as it rages silently around us.

I know this is long. And I am tired tonight. Some dear lady suggested priv.
in a post that I am angry and growing angrier. Nothing could be further from
the truth. I have never been angry with this list, even when some have said
some terribly nasty things, publically and privately. I have punched back
hard, if only to shake things up and open a way to real discourse. Some have
suggested, (well ok more than just some) that a more *moderate* tone gathers
listeners. I have found that to be mostly untrue. I have seen brilliant
examinations of the issues above given by Kevin Haines (for example) and they
have been virtually ignored. He indeed might have said the exact same thing I
said, on the same night even. And yet I will rec. 20 responses either in
praise or blame to his 1. So you go with whatever works. Here the ends
justify a few squashed egos.

The storm is rising fast . . .

jim harrison

Alethinos@aol.com

But I am anxious. We have so much to do.

From burlb@bmi.netSun Apr 14 12:54:51 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 01:15 PDT
From: Burl Barer
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Hark! The Arc!

Before I slip into unconsciousness
I would like to have another kiss

It was wonderful. The Clara Dunn Arc Crusade Campaign of Glorious Privilige
right here in Walla Walla, WA where Clara became a Baha'i oh-so-many years
ago before she became a Hand of the Cause.

Jack McCants of our beloved National Spiritual Assembly spoke quite on
target and he was thrilled to get an autographed copy of MAN OVERBOARD; Mark
Ravandahsk (spelling?) represented Arc Designs International and showed
spiffy slides; Gretchen Hewitt performed several numbers including the
composition that was such a big hit at the King Center observance of MLK's
Birthday. A splendid time was had by all and we raised money for the Arc.

NOW we still have some wonderful hand made roses, each adorned with the
name of one of the Baha'i martyrs in Iran since 1978.. You can have one
(rose, not a martyr) for your donation to the Arc via our Campaign.

Baha'i Fund
po box 2016
Walla Walla, WA
99362 USA

Please say that your donation is for a rose. Let us know if you want us to
send you the rose (include postage :-))

Burl
*************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer is still only $19.95 and may be ordered from any
bookstore. ISBN#: 1-56901-815-4 Buy Yours Today!
Visit my new home page: www.bmi.net/outlaw/burl.html
********************


From gladius@portal.caSun Apr 14 12:55:12 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 01:54:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Linda de Gonzalez
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: This Will Be Tough

Hey, wait a sec. Wasn't it specified in the first post of this thread
(Milissa's) that this was NOT about wimminontheUHJ???

So far the only stuff I've read on this go-round about women on the UHJ has
been from men (except for a passing comment). So whose concern is it?

Maybe you are tired (4:00 a.m.???), and that is why you are over-reacting.
This is EXPLORATION of NEW IDEAS about EQUALITY. We know that we don't know
what equality is, in the sense meant by the new Revelation.

Absolutely it's about power: the power to speak, the power to vote, the
power to make a difference. Sorry, but that's not the Satan of American
materialism. It's the power of the soul working in and through a human body,
no matter it's color, no matter it's gender, no matter it's marital status.

Wanna hear some OLD ideas about equality??? Well, here's one: it's okay for
blacks to have separate schools, restaurants, & other facilities. Of course,
they're equal. They're just different. More rhythm, you know? And they don't
speak very good English, generally. And after all that fried chicken, I'm
sure it's affected their DNA or something. That's probably why they're so
good at basketball. They're different, but equal. And so they should have
different stuff from the rest of white North Americans.

Get some sleep, man. This whole thread is something new. I don't care about
wimminontheUHJ, because I'm desperately trying to get 8 or 10 Persian women
to speak at consultation during Feasts: a much more immediate and pressing
concern to our small community than the membership of the UHJ.

And thanks, Linda Walbridge, for your input about chastisement from
husbands: what would they be chastised about? Just speaking, and therefore
bringing attention to themselves? Or would the content be subject to
chastising as well?? I had suspected that some such dynamic might be going
on, but didn't want to believe it.

>The real issue, and it is indeed an issue here at least, is the underlying
*questioning* of the fundamental nature of the Cause on one hand and the
Administrative Order on the other.

I don't think so. What is being questioned on my part (and I believe on the
part of the other women participating--at last!--in this conversation) is
HOW to express the fundamental nature of equality that the Cause enjoins on
us as believers. What is it? What does it look like? What does it not look
like? What do the Writings say about equality that can offer guidance? The
fact that I don't like some of what is there is obviously not sufficient
for me to have left the Cause--I'm still here and kicking after 26 years.

And as far as "embittered old warriors", hey, you sound like one. Just don't
presume for one moment that I am another.


Linda de Gonzalez
Gladius Productions


From a003@lehigh.eduSun Apr 14 12:55:44 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 07:49:04 EDT
From: a003@lehigh.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Women's Problems

Dear Sandy, Linda, Linda, Joan, Melissa, Roxanne, et al.,

I am so happy to be hearing your voices raised on this subject. I've held
off saying something because, like Derek, I wanted to listen. The recent
stinging comments from some quarter, I try not to pay too much attention,
have stimulated me to say please don't back off.

I know this doesn't have anything to do, on the whole, with the male
membership of the Universal House of Justice, and I realize some things
are said that perhaps are not totally fair or true, but please don't stop.

I realize also that "women's point of view" is not monolithic, and I look
forward to the development of the major issues into various differing
perspectives. I have questions I'd like to pursue, but at this point
would prefer to see how this develops.

It is stimulating excellent conversations between my wife, my daughter,
and myself (my 14 year old daughter has decided that the House of Justice
is all male because we are going to be invaded by space aliens sometime
within the next thousand years and they are going to attack the House.
But, because they are all genetically y-cromosomed they will be impervious
to the aliens devious machinations and the earth will be saved!). I must
also say I was more moved by her simple statement that, "that the House of
Justice is all male really hurts my feelings and my sense of who I am."
more than any intellectual argument...(but this isn't about whether the
House should be all male or not.)

But, speaking of houses, I've got to clean this one before Baha'i Class
here this morning...
Please accept my warmest support and enthusiastic
encouragement in speaking your mind in this electronic forum.
And to those men who criticize, please forbear.
I need this information. We need to hear it.

With Baha'i Love,

Bill

*-----------------------------------------------------------*
* Phone:610-867-9251 William George *
* Theatre Artist *
* 908 E. 5th. St. *
* Bethlehem, Pa 18015 U.S.A. *
*___________________________________________________________*

From l.droege@genie.comSun Apr 14 12:59:02 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 13:13:00 UTC 0000
From: l.droege@genie.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: RE: Women's Problems...

Jim and Robert J.,
You are both missing the point.
You are both trying to take over and shut down an important discussion.
Please Shut Up!!!
Leigh

From jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.eduSun Apr 14 12:59:25 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 09:43:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joan Jensen
To: a003@lehigh.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Women's Problems


Dear Bill,

> I've held off saying something because, like Derek, I wanted to listen.

Listening carefully is very important, and I really appreciate the
focused attention you are giving to the topic. In addition, I would be
grateful if this became CONSULTATION among both men and women. In John
Kolstoe's book on Consultation (p. 9) he summarizes four features of
consultation in this way:

"Baha'i consultation can be defined as a process for producing
a change in order to accomplish some definite purpose. This
involves a sharing and interaction of thoughts and feelings in
a spirit of love and harmony."


> I have questions I'd like to pursue, but at this point would prefer
> to see how this develops.

I suggest that this development will be nurtured and further thoughts
will be stimulated if you share your questions, outlook and experiences
right away, as they come to mind. Just as you shared the perspective
of your 14 year old daughter, I would love to hear parts of the
"excellent conversations" and ideas generated in your home on this topic.

Warmly, Joan
------------------------------------------------------------------
Joan Jensen
Baltimore, Maryland USA

*******************************************************************
"...love and affinity are the fruits of a gentle disposition,
a pure nature and praiseworthy character..."
Selected Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 287
*******************************************************************


From jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.eduSun Apr 14 13:00:06 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 10:08:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joan Jensen
To: lwalbrid
Cc: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: being honest


Dear Linda,

You pointed out:
> The Iranian Baha'is faced a great deal of persecution, from what I
> understand, because men and women were socializing together in Baha'i
> meetings when they should have been segregated.

This reminds me of something an Iranian friend told me in 1974. He said
that when he learned I was a Baha'i his first thought was, "That can't be
possible, she's not like that!" When I asked him what 'like that' meant,
he shyly said that 'everyone' in his town knew that Baha'i women were
sexually loose women, and/or prostitutes. Thus, these ideas have not
abated 100 years later.


> While I don't want to overgeneralize, I have seen Iranian women, mostly
> in the M.E., who even in the past couple of decades, would not dare to
> speak up at an Assembly meeting or Feast for fear of chastisement from
> their husbands.

I know that this may be hard to believe, but I too have sometimes not
dared to speak up at an Assembly meeting or Feast for fear of
chastisement from my (ex) husband. He didn't like people to think that
I knew more than him, unless it was a topic traditionally considered
women's domain. However, if I was somehow able to weave comments into
the consultation that gave him credit for the genesis or development of
the idea, it became acceptable to him.

"Women may know their oppression but choose not to speak
out about it, judging the risk to be too great. They may
do nothing or, operating stealthily in the interstices of
power, they may resist through devious ways of speaking or
acting." (Emily Martin, _The Woman in the Body_, p. 182)

Warmly, Joan
------------------------------------------------------------------
Joan Jensen
Baltimore, Maryland USA

*******************************************************************
"...love and affinity are the fruits of a gentle disposition,
a pure nature and praiseworthy character..."
Selected Writings of 'Abdu'l -Baha, p. 287
*******************************************************************


From jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.eduSun Apr 14 13:00:53 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 10:35:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joan Jensen
To: DEREK COCKSHUT
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: women's problems: this is how it works,


Dear Sandy and Derek,

Your comments brought to mind a passage discussing the relationship
between class position and consciousness.

Sandy Fotos wrote:
> This is how it works--minorities trying to be heard and when they are,
> the abuse comes down. This is how people are silenced.
Derek Cockshut replied:
> ... the major complaint women always have: is that men refuse to
> listen when a woman has a serious or important point to make.

"Because their class position insulates them from the
suffering of the oppressed, many members of the ruling
class are likely to be convinced by their own ideology;
either they fail to perceive the suffering of the oppressed
or they believe that it if freely chosen, deserved or
inevitable. They experience the current organization of
society as basically satisfactory and so they accept the
interpretation of reality that justifies that system of
organization... Oppressed groups, by contrast, suffer
directly from the system that oppresses them. Sometimes
the ruling ideology succeeds in duping them into partial
denial of their pain or into accepting it temporarily but
the pervasiveness, intensity and relentlessness of their
suffering constantly push oppressed groups toward a
realization that something is wrong with the prevailing
social order. Their pain provides them with a motivation
for finding out what is wrong, for criticising accepted
interpretations of reality and for developing new and less
distorted ways of understanding the world."
(Alison Jaggar, _Feminist Politics and Human Nuture_ 1983)
(pp. 370-371)

Examples of things wrong with the prevailing social order? Academic and
professional careers that do not flexibly accomodate family/social events
such as birth or adoption of a child, illness or death in the family, the
need to integrate further education to enhance one's ability to serve.
It is the exception rather than the rule to have inexpensive quality child
care available in a community for people who work or go to school.
Closer to home, how many men in this group have taught children's classes
within their Baha'i community or at summer schools, or regularly organized
events for the children at Feast? I have seen children GLOW when they
received focused attention from their male Baha'i teacher, perhaps
because this kind of attention from men in the community is so rare.

Joan
------------------------------------------------------------------
Joan Jensen
Baltimore, Maryland USA

*******************************************************************
"...love and affinity are the fruits of a gentle disposition,
a pure nature and praiseworthy character..."
Selected Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 287
*******************************************************************



From nineteen@onramp.netSun Apr 14 13:01:07 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 09:47:38 -0500
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: Linda de Gonzalez , Talisman
Subject: Re:Re: Women's Problems

>Or were you being sarcastic??? I couldn't
>tell, so I decided to take you seriously.
>
>>My spiritual mother told me that men should step back and support women


I'm sorry you feel that way. I would never want to hurt you. I believe
Linda W. will tell you that I am a sincere person, though I cannot say
she will vouch for me, but I know my wife will most strongly.

It is very difficult to have gender issues discussed without people
getting the wrong idea. It would be nice if we could be patient with
each other despite how ignorant one might appear. The idea that there is
a time that men should be yelled at, may be just, but I do not know if it
is wise. I TRY to conduct myself as a gentle, Loving, understanding,
masculine figure. I have no idea if that is offensive or not.

As far as sin goes--I take sin to mean a transgression--and I was
admitting that I am a transgressor in the respects you mention--but on
the other hand, my wife is not interested in if I do the dishes, and
anyway our children should be doing those. But as to the fair
distribution of duties in the home I do feel that is dependent on the
wishes of individual familys--I do all the cooking.

I try to comply with my wifes requests and see to her emotional and
spiritual as well as material needs. The Baha'i women of my community
(who outnumber the men 2 to 1) I try to treat with love and
encouragement.

I have always felt that members of this list should speak forthrightly,
if that be their desire. I do not believe a persons integrity should be
challenged because that leads to contention and hurt feelings.

This should make another amusing episode for Derek to satirize me in.

Richard

Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePage "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



From jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.eduSun Apr 14 13:01:29 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 11:16:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joan Jensen
To: Linda de Gonzalez
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re:Re: Women's Problems


Dear Linda (de Gonzalez),

> Stand FORWARD and support women.

This reminds me of a precious acknowledgement from John Woodall at the
New York (Solomon B. Hilton Baha'i Summer School). He spoke briefly
about how the long-suffering and patience of women in preserving
marriages (for example) has been ignored, or reduced to something
scornful ('women who love too much'). Then he read the following passage
from 'Abdu'l-Baha:
"Ere long the days shall come when the men addressing the women,
shall say: 'Blessed are ye! Blessed are ye! Ye are worthy of
every gift. Verily ye deserve to adorn your heads with the
crown of everlasting glory, because in science and arts, in
virtues and perfections ye shall become equal to man, and as
regards tenderness of heart and the abundance of mercy and
sympathy ye are superior.' (PT, p. 182-184)

And finally he asked all the men in the room to give a standing ovation
to the women present and absent. Even thinking about his public
acknowledgement, this symbol of respect for the suffering and work of
women, brings tears to my eyes. Like any symbol, its power to transform
the actions of the people who were present may be difficult to measure.
But it is an example of an attitude of joyful celebration and a
recognition of the individuals or groups whose contributions and
special perspectives enrich our lives.

Warmly, Joan
-----------------------------------------------------------
Joan Jensen
Baltimore, Maryland USA

*******************************************************************
"...love and affinity are the fruits of a gentle disposition,
a pure nature and praiseworthy character..."
Selected Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 287
*******************************************************************



From lwalbrid@indiana.eduSun Apr 14 13:20:00 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 11:50:57 -0500 (EST)
From: lwalbrid
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: defending some friends

First, I must say that I can't imagine that Jim Harrison was attacking
you, Linda Gonzalez. It had to have been me. I was about due my weekly
MDR of bile from Jim. But it is all right. I don't mind at all. Jim's
postings keep the adrenaline up which is something I require for
survival. I am much indebted.

I now must defend two gentlemen on Talisman. First, I testify that
Richard Logan is a very sincere person. Absolutely and without a doubt.

Second, the "Student" Dr. Burl who is a gentlemen par excellence and
whose virtue I should certainly defend did not make a mistake, in my
opinion, by bowing politely out of the kitchen without lecturing his
hosts on male/female relations. There is a huge difference between a
woman retiring to the kitchen to clean up and a young girl being raped.
Really, some balance is needed here. While I would certainly object to
seeing a woman in any society being abused, I do not think it is any of
my business to tell people how to run their lives in general. There are
plenty of women who would much prefer seeing their husbands doing just
about anything other than plunging their hands in the dish water - and
they aren't just from Eastern cultures. Many couples do extremely well
by having sharp divisions of labor. In fact, there is evidence out now
that in Scandanavian countries there is a great deal of boredom being
expressed in relationships because men and women are doing the same
things. So, please, let us not equate male/female equality with cleaning
up after meals. Such relationships are complex. Imposing our
"enlightened" views might be the worst thing that do for others.

Bill, your question about re: Baha'u'llah and the exclusion of women
from the UHJ is an excellent on - and I have no answer to that question.
I guess my sense of the situation is that it would have seemed so far
fetched at the time. While in the late nineteenth century M.E. ideas of
women becoming educated were certainly floating around, the idea that
women would be public leaders was not an issue to my knowledge.

Joan, I think of Tahireh's unveiling as symbolic of breaking with Islamic
law rather than a statement about women's liberation. I can't help
thinking that we in the west have imposed a lot of unjustifiable ideas
onto the image of Tahireh. While this act would have been a statement
about ridding religion of many of its trappings - ritual purity,
attention to miniscule, often silly ideas about what is permissable and
what is not - I don't know if we can leap to the notion that allowing
women to serve on a governing body would have been a logical next step.

I guess I am among those who believe that, if the Baha'i Faith is going
to remain relevant to the times in which we live, we are going to have to
have flexibility and stick with underlying principles, such as the
harmony of science and religion and the equality of men and women. If we
stick to particular, narrow rulings, then we will not have this
flexibility that will be increasingly needed in the future.

Linda Walbridge

From Alethinos@aol.comSun Apr 14 13:28:11 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:23:10 -0400
From: Alethinos@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: This Will Be Tough

Actually Linda G, (and I am sorry if this causes a moment of embarrassment) I
was never really writing in response to your posts. I thought they were
interesting, but I was focusing on others. I am sorry if it seemed I was.
Now, do you need help off of YOUR high horse??

jim harrison

Alethinos@aol.com

From Alethinos@aol.comSun Apr 14 13:50:08 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:23:12 -0400
From: Alethinos@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Suggestions for R & R and this mess over here

Good lord that is the last time I am going use the phrase "I'm tired" in a
post! I was talking figuratively people. I am not really tired! I work out
four times a week I eat . . . oh never mind.

What is more disturbing is this. The assumption that I, for my part, want to
silence women. Get a grip folks, read the damn posts! It is not about
silencing women. Didn't that come through the last post? In any of the posts
where I have mentioned names, I have only once referred to a women, my dearly
beloved vixen-wannabe (according to Burl and Derek) Linda WALBRIDGE, (did you
catch that Linda G.) All the other folk that I have either responded to or
mentioned were MEN, HELLLLOOOOO!

And it was not about exploring the difficult issue of WHY women are not on
the UHJ but RATHER the accusations that it was a plot, design, cabal by
fiendish sexist old men up on the hill, in league with all the other
card-carrying testosterone pumped humaniod bodies round the globe. AND there
were actually other MEN who were saying the same thing. All of which WAS
ignored as accusations did begin to approach hurlige speed that here again
men were trying to IN GENERAL silence women because of some gene that men
possessed and women didn't blah-de-damn-blah-blah.

I would have been, still am interested in exploring the question of why women
are excluded. It would be a interesting day or two of imaginative yet
essentally fruitless intellectual probing, but we could kick some good ideas
around. None of them would really count, we couldn't offer it really to
seekers as "Well here is the REAL reason Mary, although of course this is not
OFFICIALLY recognized by the UHJ, etc."

WARNING: THIS NEXT PARAGRAPH IS THE MAIN POINT. PLEASE IGNORE IT AND SKIP TO
THE END *********

The main issue has been the assumptions, presented almost entirely by MEN
that the Cause/Administrative Order is essentially flawed. AND that the issue
of women on the UHJ is simply one proof among many of this. THAT is the real
issue here. That has been what I have been struggling against.

Please no more soft, sweet-smelling female hands pressed to my electronic
brow saying, "here honey you just lie down over here ok? I'll get you a
blankie and a nice iced tea."



>From an untired, unangry (but I am going to get that way if you keep
insisting that I am) sufficiently coffeed and physically quite fit thank you
. . .

jim harrison

Alethinos@aol.com

From dann.may@sandbox.telepath.comSun Apr 14 13:51:29 1996
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 96 08:51:17 -0600 (CST)
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Women in the New Test.


Dear Milissa,
>From my study and reading both of the Bible and various commentaries of the
Bible, and from conversations with Christian clergy and students, I find
that the issue of the status of women is neither what the feminists make it
out to be nor what more traditional Christian's construe it to mean, nor
what most Baha'is read anachronistically into the texts. Furthermore, I
think we need to distinguish between Christ's treatment of women, the
treatment of women in the early Christian communities, Paul's response to
these early communities and the position of the Church as it developed in
later centuries.

I am currently teaching a course on Christian Ethics, and here are a few
insights my students and I gleaned from the various sources on the subject.

1. Jesus says little on the subject, but when we examine His treatment of
both men and women, it seems clear the He dealt with both sexes on the same \ \ basis, treating both equally. He spoke kindly and with due consideration to
both sexes, defended their rights, and aided the oppressed and sick
regardless of whether they were men or women. He repeatedly emphasizes that
every individual is of infinite worth in the eyes of God (cf. Matt.
6:25-33, 12:9-14; Luke 15). In the words of the Christian theologian Roger
Crook" "We can hardly escape the conclusion, therefore, that Jesus
considered men and women to be on the same level" (_An Intro. to Christian
Ethics_, 2d ed., p. 181).

2. No doubt on the basis of Christ's treatment of women, the earliest
Christian communities is such places as Corinth, Greece, women were
participating in the church's services and assuming leadership roles. In
the words of Crook: "We are usually so struck by Paul's stern affirmation
that women should behave themselves properly in worship services that we
overlook a crucial fact: The women were actually 'praying and prophesying'
in the services [1 Corinthians 11: 4-5]" (Ibid., p. 183).

3. I would argue that the Church's later more oppressive view of women, has
more to do with misunderstanding Paul's writings (i.e., literal readings
coupled with a blatant disregard for the context of his words) than what
Paul actually said. For instance, Paul insists that in Christian fellowship
distinctions of any kind are simply irrelevant: 'There is no longer Jew or
Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and
female; for all of you are one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28; cf. Romans
10:12, Colossians 3:11). What Baha'i could not agree with this statement?
Could this not be re-written from a Baha'i perspective as: "There is no
longer Muslim or Christian, poor or rich, black or white, educated or
uneducated, male or female; for all of us are one in Baha'u'llah?"

4. By the time of the writing of I and II Timothy and Titus (epistles
attributed to Paul, but probably written long after his death), the Church
had developed a more formal organization and women were now assigned a
secondary role.

W > I enjoyed your posting and agree that you have raised some important
W >questions. I just want to make a few comments regarding Christianity an
W >Women. The examples you choose for your hypothetical Christian answers
W >show how just about any position can be drawn from the Bible when one p
W >and chooses. There are of course numerous examples from the Bible (espe
W >the letters of Paul) where it can be shown that women were oppressed, a
W >indeed much of Christian history reflects this fact, sometimes in very
W >ways. If you haven't read Joachim Kahl's *The Misery of Christianity*,
W >especially the section of the defamation of sexuality and of Women,

Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end. Spock, Sta

From Alethinos@aol.comSun Apr 14 13:51:41 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:39:05 -0400
From: Alethinos@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: defending some friends

In a message dated 96-04-14 12:51:43 EDT, you write:

>First, I must say that I can't imagine that Jim Harrison was attacking
>you, Linda Gonzalez. It had to have been me. I was about due my weekly
>MDR of bile from Jim. But it is all right. I don't mind at all. Jim's
>postings keep the adrenaline up which is something I require for
>survival. I am much indebted.

Not bile dear, reality check. To produce emotional bile one would actually
have to be attached to what is going on here.

jim harrison

Alethinos@aol.com



From spurushotma@brahma.hcla.comSun Apr 14 15:18:31 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 11:22:36 PDT
From: spurushotma@brahma.hcla.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Guess What??

It has come to my attention that the very same
so called "Baha'i" travel agent who secretly
taped the conversation with the members of the
National Spiritual Assembly was 99% the same one
who cheated my family and numerous other
pilgrims in 1993 before filing for bankruptcy.

I will research the files when I get back to verify,
but so far everything is adding up and this
%^&&*@#$$% is the same one.

(You all know how my vocubulary can get in thinking
about people such as this ... I will refrain for
now ... but may we all learn our lessons for being
so gullible).

May all this lesson-learning benefit the future growth
of the Faith!!

Lv,

Shastri

From DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.eduSun Apr 14 15:19:03 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:02:03 EST
From: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Oneness of Religion...?

Dearest...,
Just read this excerpt note below on soc.religion.bahai . I am very puzzled and also
very saddened both for what is happening to Baha'is in Iran and
how we may be perpetuating religious misunderstanding by statements
such as below. I am curious how others viewed this statement.
It's full text is in the newsgroup above. Apparently it is an excerpt
from the Voice of America program which goes globally.

love,
q.

p.s. it was typed in caps at soc.bahai. I am not shouting, promise!!!

"THE BAHA'I FAITH HAVING APPEARED IN THE 19TH CENTURY
AND PROFESSING BELIEFS SOME OF WHICH ARE UNPALATABLE TO
THE CLERGY, SUCH AS THE EQUALITY OF MEN AND WOMEN, SUCH
AS THE REJECTION OF THE CONCEPT OF RITUAL IMPURITY BY
THE BAHA'IS. YOU KNOW AMONG THE SHIITE MUSLIMS, IF A
MUSLIM TOUCHES A CHRISTIAN OR A JEW, HE THEN HAS TO
PERFORM ABLUTIONS IN ORDER TO CLEAN HIMSELF OF THE TOUCH
OF THE INFIDEL. WELL, THE BAHA'IS HAVE REJECTED THAT AND
THAT IS OFFENSIVE TO THE SHIITE CLERGY OR TO A
SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF SHIITE CLERGYMAN. SO THEY SEE THE
BAHA'IS AS A HERESY AND ALSO AS A THREAT." [END OPT]







From L Sun Apr 14 15:19:52 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 20:11:10 +0200 (MET DST)
From: L
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd: Scholarship on equality of women

Please excuse the shortness of this response. Today we started the process
of upgrading our computer so we can install Windows 95. These projects are
never simple for us so I expect I will be somewhat absorbed for the next few
weeks. (This is not a complaint Microsoft employees! It is an admission of
a lack of computer savoir-faire.)

The theory of difference seems, in some corners, to have evolved to a theory
of care. You can find articles on this in philosophy, law, and feminist
journals. You might also want to look at works by cultural feminists as
they are often seem to be Gilliganists. They are sometimes called
"maternalists". If you would like a good summary of critiques of Gilligan's
work, then you should probably read "Deconstructing Gender", Joan C.
Williams, 87 *Michigan Law Review* 797 (1989). Pay close attention to her
notes.


>On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, L wrote:
>
>>> _In a Different Voice: Psychological Theory and Women's Development_
>>> Carol Gilligan, Harvard University Press, Cambridge MA, 1982.
>
>> This book has been roundly and deservedly critiqued.
>
>Dear L,
>
>Its been six years since I delved into the feminist literature. Perhaps
>you could recommend some books that reflect more current concerns and
>understandings of the similarities and differences between women and men.
>
>Warmly, Joan
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
> Joan Jensen
> Baltimore, Maryland USA
>
>*******************************************************************
> "...love and affinity are the fruits of a gentle disposition,
> a pure nature and praiseworthy character..."
> Selected Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 287
>*******************************************************************
>
>
>


From banani@ucla.eduSun Apr 14 15:20:08 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 11:45:17 -0700
From: Amin Banani
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Oneness of Religion...?

What's wrong with the statement? It is true that Baha'u'llah
(Kitab-i-Aqdas) rejects the idea of "ritual impurity."
Sheila Banani



>Dearest...,
>Just read this excerpt note below on soc.religion.bahai . I am very
>puzzled and also
>very saddened both for what is happening to Baha'is in Iran and
>how we may be perpetuating religious misunderstanding by statements
>such as below. I am curious how others viewed this statement.
>It's full text is in the newsgroup above. Apparently it is an excerpt
>from the Voice of America program which goes globally.
>
>love,
>q.
>
>p.s. it was typed in caps at soc.bahai. I am not shouting, promise!!!
>
> "THE BAHA'I FAITH HAVING APPEARED IN THE 19TH CENTURY
> AND PROFESSING BELIEFS SOME OF WHICH ARE UNPALATABLE TO
>THE CLERGY, SUCH AS THE EQUALITY OF MEN AND WOMEN, SUCH
> AS THE REJECTION OF THE CONCEPT OF RITUAL IMPURITY BY
>THE BAHA'IS. YOU KNOW AMONG THE SHIITE MUSLIMS, IF A
> MUSLIM TOUCHES A CHRISTIAN OR A JEW, HE THEN HAS TO
> PERFORM ABLUTIONS IN ORDER TO CLEAN HIMSELF OF THE TOUCH
> OF THE INFIDEL. WELL, THE BAHA'IS HAVE REJECTED THAT AND
> THAT IS OFFENSIVE TO THE SHIITE CLERGY OR TO A
> SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF SHIITE CLERGYMAN. SO THEY SEE THE
> BAHA'IS AS A HERESY AND ALSO AS A THREAT." [END OPT]

Sheila Banani
E-Mail: Banani@UCLA.Edu (Sheila)






From DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.eduSun Apr 14 15:21:44 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:07:22 EST
From: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
To: Amin Banani
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Oneness of Religion...?

Dearest Sheila!

When we speak of teaching the Oneness of Religion to the entire
world via Voice of America reflecting our tragedies, it may prove
more beneficial to our purpose to refrain from points of disagreement
with other religions and create further antagony and prejudices.
If my family (moslems) heard that statement they will come to me
and say "this is the religion you belong to! we don't do such a
thing! why are you guys talking about moslems this way?" In the
communication psychology people do not differentiate between each
word. They respond to what effects them personally.

If, for instance I was a jew or christian, I would be angry at all
moslems by hearing that statements. If, I was a member
of any other religious persuasion I would get bad impressions of all
moslems. If, I was an aetheist or agnostic I might think here goes
another religion lambasting people of other religions. It is only MO.

with universal love,
quanta

Sheila Banani wrote:


What's wrong with the statement? It is true that Baha'u'llah
(Kitab-i-Aqdas) rejects the idea of "ritual impurity."
Sheila Banani



>Dearest...,
>Just read this excerpt note below on soc.religion.bahai . I am very
>puzzled and also
>very saddened both for what is happening to Baha'is in Iran and
>how we may be perpetuating religious misunderstanding by statements
>such as below. I am curious how others viewed this statement.
>It's full text is in the newsgroup above. Apparently it is an excerpt
>from the Voice of America program which goes globally.
>
>love,
>q.
>
>p.s. it was typed in caps at soc.bahai. I am not shouting, promise!!!
>
> "THE BAHA'I FAITH HAVING APPEARED IN THE 19TH CENTURY
> AND PROFESSING BELIEFS SOME OF WHICH ARE UNPALATABLE TO
>THE CLERGY, SUCH AS THE EQUALITY OF MEN AND WOMEN, SUCH
> AS THE REJECTION OF THE CONCEPT OF RITUAL IMPURITY BY
>THE BAHA'IS. YOU KNOW AMONG THE SHIITE MUSLIMS, IF A
> MUSLIM TOUCHES A CHRISTIAN OR A JEW, HE THEN HAS TO
> PERFORM ABLUTIONS IN ORDER TO CLEAN HIMSELF OF THE TOUCH
> OF THE INFIDEL. WELL, THE BAHA'IS HAVE REJECTED THAT AND
> THAT IS OFFENSIVE TO THE SHIITE CLERGY OR TO A
> SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF SHIITE CLERGYMAN. SO THEY SEE THE
> BAHA'IS AS A HERESY AND ALSO AS A THREAT." [END OPT]

Sheila Banani
E-Mail: Banani@UCLA.Edu (Sheila)








From gpoirier@acca.nmsu.eduSun Apr 14 19:32:10 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:47:30 -0600 (MDT)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: r_wagner@foma.wsc.mass.edu
Cc: TALISMAN@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Trademarks and covenant breakers


Re: the NSA's suit against Sohrab, just a couple of comments. I do not
know a whole lot about copyright or trademark law. I do see that this was
brought in the "supreme court" of New York. That's not the court
generally thought of as the state supreme court; in New York, the regular
state court is known as the "supreme" court. It's the trial court where
lawsuits begin, not the appellate court. The judge said that the suit
should be dismissed without a trial. It's strange to me that the judge
did not cite *any* statutory law or case precedent for his decision. To
make any kind of comment, I'd need to look at the status of state and
federal trademark law in those days, as well as the federal copyright law.
Brent


From sscholl@jeffnet.orgSun Apr 14 19:35:35 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:52:10 +0100
From: White Cloud Press
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Women's Voices/Jim's Voice


Dear Friends,

I have been deeply moved by the inclusion of more women's voices on the
women/UHJ/women's problems threads. Leigh, Joan, Sandy, Milissa, words have
laid bare new understandings for me. I was especially touched and impressed
by Leigh and Bill's daughter's second response to the issue of women's
exclusion from service within the Baha'i community "that the House of
Justice is all male really hurts my feelings and my sense of who I am."
Thank you all so much for raising your voices. Joan's recounting of her
experience in consultation was particularly illuminating. I am lucky to
serve on an LSA with 6 women with a woman as chair. It is rare that there
is ever more than 2 men at our LSA meeting at the same time. The quality of
our consultations is different from any other I have experienced, and is
but one more personal proof to me of the importance of an eventual change
in direction on current policy.

Jim Harrison. Ah, what can I say. Jim continues to moan that we are wasting
our precious time and resources by not following whatever vision he has in
mind but can't seem to explain to such dense heads as populate this
discussion forum. Jim continues to steam about how redundant certain
issues are and how it is clear that nothing new is being said or gained
from moving this or that thread forward. Yet we are accosted almost daily
with him saying the same thing over and over and over and over again.
Several folks chime in and say, "Whoa, Jim, actually I have gotten
something out of the women/UHJ thread." To which our indefatiguable pen pal
responds by noting how ignorant one must be to have such thoughts. He
posts, repeatedly, quotes from the Guardian and dares the "revisionists" to
explain them away. When a few of us take him on, he screams that we are
lost in the wilds of the liberal democratic tradition, yet he fails to put
forward a meaningful or coherent response. (I am getting rather tired of
having people try to dismiss a view by claiming that this or that Baha'i is
trying to conform Baha'i to current standards. Juan, for example, has put
forward detailed responses to Jim's diatribes which are firmly rooted in
Baha'i scriptures and further elaborated brilliantly by Juan's deep
understandig of 19th and 20th century Near Eastern and European history,
culture and politics. I am constantly amazed that Jim and others get so
cranky when Juan, Jackson, John or Tony try to provide context and meaning
to specific Baha'i texts and events.)

And yet Jim's talk becomes louder and louder and more abusive in tone. It
is as if Jim feels that if he can ONLY SCREAM LOUD ENOUGH AND IN AN ANGRY
AND MEAN-SPIRITED VOICE then he might catch our attention. But the rules of
this language game area call for people to put forward their arguments with
reason. Jim has failed to convince me, and I believe many others, of his
positions, in fact, I usually remain baffled as to what he is trying to
say. Furthermore, from the standpoint of respect and courtesy, traits that
Baha'is are suppose to strive for according to our sacred texts and which
are noted in Talisman list rules, Jim is the most violent provacateur and
breaker of rules within our cyber community. I would again ask Jim to
discontinue his monitoring of any thread he personally feels is pointless
and stop wasting our time with his rants about how idiotic those who find
merit in said thread are for keeping up the discussion. Statements such as
we found in a recent Jim post that the arguments in favor of change on the
exclusion of women are baseless mean nothing since there is no argument to
deal with, just an emotional outburst. The bulk of Jim's posts are
emotional outbursts that are difficult to respond to. Obviously there are
differences of opinion on the topic. Ahang, for example, has arrogantly
stated that he personally sees nothing wrong with research on the topic,
even though he is absolutely certain that no change will occur. I, on the
other hand, have stated with equal arrogance my unwavering position that in
the future women will be allowed to serve on the UHJ, a view based on my
reading of the texts and the historical context of said texts. But it seems
to me that Ahang and I are still able to discuss matters rationally and
with respect toward each other and our differing views.

Back to Arsalan's case: It seems to me that what Arsalan is reacting to is
his perception that people cannot be sincere Baha'is and at the same time
disagree with the Head of the Faith. This topic has been discussed long and
hard several times, but it seems to me to be at the heart of many of our
ongoing difficulties. Like the topic of women's service on elected bodies,
this issue will inevitably rear its head from time to time as newcomers
join our group. I think it important to recognize that unanimity on the
details of religion is not required to maintain unity within the community.
Just as we do not expect all Catholics to accept every papal pronouncement
as unerring, I do not expect all Baha'is to agree, or should they need to
agree, with every thing that Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi or
the House of Justice says. The world is too large and too complex for such
conformity of minds and it seems alien to the spirit of the faith, causing
more theological problems than does the allowance for wide latitude of
approaches. For example, I disagree with the House on many things, such as
their advice on teenage masturbation, their endorsement of the male as the
head of the Baha'i family despite no evidence for this in the sacred
writings, and, yes, the position on excluding women from service on the
House of Justice. I believe that my views are valid and I believe they are
firmly rooted in the Baha'i writings. The tough issue for the Baha'i faith
is: Will it muster up the intellectual requirements to transcend its 19th
century Islamic roots to become a truly universal faith. And what does it
take to become a universal faith? Well, as one scholar of world history and
religious conversions has noted, no faith ever became universal until its
scholars and intellectuals developed a meaningful framework for relating
the sacred revelation to the existing and emerging paradigms in science,
history, and philosophy. I can hear some cringing at this and thinking that
this is calling for compromise of the purity of the revelation. I think
not. I think it is just common sense and what Shoghi Effendi reminded us
when he noted the importance of having scholars who can relate the Baha'i
teachings to contemporary thought.

Steve Scholl



From gpoirier@acca.nmsu.eduSun Apr 14 19:36:08 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:55:35 -0600 (MDT)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: "Arsalan J. Sadighi"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Unions at the World Congress


I stayed at the Pickwick Arms hotel, near the UN, not an official congress
hotel. I stay there whenever I go to NYC, as it's centrally located (two
blocks from a great deli, two blocks to the UN, two blocks to the David
Letterman show). It's also a steal, by Manhattan standards; double rooms
were $90 per night. *BUT* the hot water wasn't on when Vickie and I
needed to get up to prepare for the Congress. Some Union fellow used to go
to several hotels and turn a faucet on the boiler. Turning on a faucet is
a union function. So we had cold showers till 7 a.m.!

Vickie was a producer of the classical music venue at the Waldorf Astoria.
We had musicians from Russia, Romania, Iran, Italy, etc. She handled
everything, until the union inspector came and demanded to know if the
union rules were being followed. She said, "Oh, my husband handles that."
He wanted to know if admission was being charged, but was satisfied that
only Baha'is attending the Congress could attend. He was ready to shut
down the show, otherwise.



From gpoirier@acca.nmsu.eduSun Apr 14 19:36:21 1996
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:04:26 -0600 (MDT)
From: