Clerkship Questionaire: Surgery

Monday, February 28, 2005 -- 14:44:22 (EST)
Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • Strongly recommend a month at St. Joe's. It's a much more "self-directed" experience than at the U, which means more flexibility in seeing the cases you want to see, fewer floor responsibilities, etc. Also nice to pre-round on 2/3 patients every morning and get to know them a little bit better. Teaching is hit or miss - some residents teach well and others don't - but that's true at any location.
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    Saturday, January 22, 2005 -- 21:44:14 (EST)
    Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • Surgery at St. Joe's is great for a number of reasons: 1. you don't start until 6am; 2. you don't do scut work; 3. you can see basically any sort of surgery you want; 4. the residents have time to teach because they are not super busy (like they are at the U); 5. you have time to study during the day if you want.
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    Thursday, January 06, 2005 -- 21:02:46 (EST)
    Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • I highly recommend a month of surgery at St. Joe's. I actually had time to read, residents actually had time to teach, and the attendings were willing to let you do more than in my experience at the U, so I felt like I was actually learning rather than running around doing scut. You have a lot of freedom to go see different kinds of surgery that might seem interesting to you, rather than just going to whatever your team is assigned to. Call is trauma call so if you're up all night at least it's seeing patients and surgeries rather than more scut. Overall I felt like I learned a lot more and was a lot more relaxed than during my month at the U.
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    Thursday, January 06, 2005 -- 16:08:55 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • I had a great time doing surgery at the U. The hours were really long (80-100+ hours/week and q4 call), even on services that were supposed to be "easy," but the quality of the residents is definitely superb. I didn't run into too many inflammatory personalities while at the U, although they do exist. If you do surgery later in the year, there's a decent chance that you could get your residents to let you do more procedural things like putting in central lines, which you probably won't do as much in July when the interns are new.
    • Thursday, January 06, 2005 -- 13:33:01 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • I did transplant and plastics at the U. With long hours, infrequent clinics, and most of your interactions with the residents, it was hard to get to know the attendings on both services. So if you think you want to go into surgery, I suggest meeting with your attendings early, and asking them for extra work (presentation, research, etc.), which is really really painful. As far as grades go, Cimmino knows that the attendings don't really know you, so he bases your grade more on your test performance. I enjoyed my month at St. Joe's much more, but I felt that my time at the U was necessary also.
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    Wednesday, January 05, 2005 -- 22:55:32 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • I did Peds Surg at the U. Good things: you see a lot of interesting cases in peds surgery. You may also work less hours than other services because there are PAs on the service who do a lot of the work formerly done by students and there is no pre-rounding. Not so good things: very little teaching. The team is absolutely huge (includes fellows, residents, PAs, nurses, peds residents, students - the whole team could not even fit in a patient's room) so sometimes you can get lost in the shuffle. The dynamics of interactions between attendings, fellows, residents, and nurses was sometimes a bit hostile - lots of people with big egos.
    • Wednesday, January 05, 2005 -- 22:40:08 (EST)
    Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • Surgery at St. Joe's is great. Everyone is very nice there, including the attendings, who like to teach. You also have more autonomy than at they U - they let you manage your own time and see cases from other services if you are interested in them. You also have more time to read during the day inbetween cases or whenever you have downtime. They have their own lectures there (in addition to the ones everyone has at the U) which I thought were beneficial. It was a pain having to leave every mon, wed, and fri to come over to the U for lectures, but then you were done for the day after lectures were over and didn't have to go back. The residents aren't quite as top notch as at the U but I still got more teaching from them than I did in my month at the U. Also, some of the residents from the U rotate at St. Joes so half your team will be from the U anyway.
    • Wednesday, January 05, 2005 -- 21:49:42 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • See lots of awesome cases although the hours can be pretty bad. I probably worked an avg. of 90-95 hours a week, although I probably had two of the busiest services (GI and vascular). You get to scrub a lot but not necessarily do a lot. I honestly got to do more stuff in the OR for ob/gyn than i did for surgery. but if you want to do surgery, the U is the place to do it.. not because of exposure to the attendings (trust me, almost none of them will remember your name), but b/c of the cool cases you see and the experience of busting your ass for a couple months to see if you're really up to it.
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    Wednesday, January 05, 2005 -- 21:08:01 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • GSE - yeah, awesome hours (relatively) but don't be fooled - it's GSE/COLORECTAL. This means tons of butt cases. If you remember nothing else, remember this - "Anal condyloma." You don't want this thing aerosolized and up your nose. If you're paranoid, you may not want to do this service. That said, I loved it anyway.
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    Wednesday, January 05, 2005 -- 16:02:36 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • I have nothing to say except that I can not believe Jeff Huo is finally leaving the lab! I guess 12 years is long enough to spend not curing anything. I got nothing but love for you Dr Huo, welcome back to the real world.
    • Wednesday, January 05, 2005 -- 11:43:13 (EST)
    Name: Vetrans Administration
  • The VA is fantastic. I spent lots of time in the OR and got to do a lot of the work for the patients. I highly recommend it. It was a lot busier than I expected.
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    Wednesday, January 05, 2005 -- 10:54:35 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • I did peds surg. It's a VERY hardworking rotation. I recommend it for those who are pretty sure they want to be pediatricians because you get a lot of peds exposure, including PICU and NICU. One nice thing was no in-hospital call on account of no call rooms.
    • Wednesday, January 05, 2005 -- 09:49:25 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • I really liked Peds Surg, although it has a bad reputation for being "difficult." However, when I compared my time to other rotations, it seemed that I got a good deal. I worked about 80 hrs/wk, but stayed overnight on call 2 times. The other call nights I slept at home for 5+ hours. We had a flexible call schedule, so I always got a weekend day off. There is a pretty good diversity of patients. you spend quite a bit of time in the NICU. You probably won't cut and sew much, but if you're interested in Peds, I'd recomment it.
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    Wednesday, January 05, 2005 -- 07:27:19 (EST)
    Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • I love St. Joes. I was actually planning to do Gen. Surg. and still decided to spend a month at Joe's because you get to do and see so much there. The attendings were really excited to have someone who was actually going into surgery (they usually stay at the U). Everyone is so nice there. Most attendings are top notch, but the residents aren't the same quality as the U. I highly recommend it for a month.
    • Tuesday, January 04, 2005 -- 21:10:23 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • Surgery is fun.
    Tuesday, January 04, 2005 -- 18:40:00 (EST)
    Name: Other
  • ABOVE HERE BEGINS 2005 COMMENTS
    Saturday, January 31, 2004 -- 13:13:22 (EST)
    Name: Vetrans Administration
  • Best thing about this rotation is clinic. You'll see patients by yourself, discuss w/ attending, and write all the clinic notes. The surgeries are mostly bread and butter stuff, probably gives a better idea of what gen surg is like than the U. Lots of hernia repairs and vascular surgeries. Dr. Henke (vasc surg) spends a lot of time over there and is a great teacher. Have to get up as early as at the U. Most m3's get home call-- and you RARELY get called.
    Friday, January 30, 2004 -- 09:32:50 (EST)
    Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • FANTASTIC! Cannot say enough how great this rotation is. Although not as "prestigious," get to see a ton of OR cases and great teaching. Do not believe the rumors that if you are interested in surgery, you should not do a rotation at St. Joes, because you are in the OR way more than at the U and there is no scut.
    Thursday, January 29, 2004 -- 21:38:41 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • SUrgery at the U sucks if you don't wanna do it. You get little general surgery like appys and gallbladders.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 23:35:49 (EST)
    Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • Pretty relaxing. Got to see a good variety of surgeries there. Usually call was every 8th night or so. Probably not as hard core as surg at the U, but good if you want a general overview. Tough part- you end up pre-rounding on all your pts (and pretty much the entire teams pts) so you get there around 5 or so. But, if the schedule of afternoon lectures stays the same, we'd leave St Joe's around 3:30 for lecture and then wouldn't have to go back. So, the day started early but ended relatively early too.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 21:25:43 (EST)
    Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • I don't know why you'd do surgery anywhere else, unless you want to go into it. Cool attendings and nice residents. Relatively nice hours. Free parking. See a good variety of bread and butter surgeries.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 18:45:46 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • Be involved! In Trauma Burn Emergency, have your trauma sheers ready in your scrub pockets when you are paged to the trauma bay; gown up; and pay attention to what is going on around you. Never, ever, ever be late to rounds in the morning. Write notes during rounds, be efficient and shut your mouth unless spoken to. Never, ever complain to anyone no your team. Ask to ask a question when you are in the OR--that way the attending or resident can say "no" if they need to concentrate on what they are doing and then they can ask you to recall your question later. Surg oncology--be prepared to see a ton of breast biopsies, melanoma resections, and for some very passive-aggressive personalities.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 17:07:58 (EST)
    Name: Vetrans Administration
  • You do 2 weeks Gen Surg (lots of hernias, some Nissens/choles) and 2 weeks Vascular. As with all things VA, the atmosphere was less macho, more laid-back than the U. Basically there isn't overnight call. I got to participate more in the OR than I ever did at the U.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 16:35:58 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • about my months:

    Vascular: you work hard; long hours. attendings are very cool, and let you do things, especially dr. upchurch. for many cases, you'll get to open and close with the chief. probably a good month for future surgeons. Sick patients, great for future critical care docs, but possibly too much work for other folks.

    GI: face time with dr. mullholland. you get to drive the camera for elective lap chole's; otherwise you don't get to do much. Long hours.

    For all rotations, your experience is very chief-specific. Ask somebody before you (like in track C) about their chief resident, and you can look at their handbook to see who runs whatever service for your surgery rotation
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 15:14:51 (EST)
    Name: Vetrans Administration
  • I did surgery at both the U and the VA. The U is very intense and you don't feel like you have much/any control over patients. It's rough. The VA is much more laid back and I felt like I got more exposure over there. I also got a chance to mix specialities which allowed me to get a great exposure to the field (I did vascular for 2 weeks and general surg for 2 weeks). I don't think you can mix specialities in one month at other places.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 15:14:04 (EST)
    Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • Excellent experience for those of us who do not want to go into surgery. Very relaxed atmosphere compared to U of M. Early morning hours but didn't have to return after lecture on most days. VERY little scut work! Basically if I wasn't in the OR, I was chilling out in the call rooms - not doing busywork.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 14:37:08 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • Vascular surgery was a great service at the U. Pretty long hours and lots of work, but the attendings are the nicest, best teachers in the entire hospital in my opinion. The surgeries are pretty interesting and prepare you really well for shelf exam and orals.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 14:35:20 (EST)
    Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • St. Joe's is AWESOME for people who known they either do or don't want to go into surgery. Almost all of the attendings are great, down-to-earth, and love students. You get TONS of hands on experience, are more involved in surgeries (lots of closing, suturing) and are taught a ton! And the atmosphere is WAY more laid back that at the U. It is a very independent place - no one will check up and you and wonder where you are at every minute. You basically get to pick which surgeries you are involved with and take charge of your own experience. I HIGHLY recommend that EVERYONE regardless of their future plans tries to do a month at the Joe's.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 13:34:51 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • The worst 2 months of my entire life. I'm not joking. Patient care on surgery tends to be minimal, you are a note writing, retractor holding monkey. Trauma and GI tend to be the toughest months. Endocrine and Onc tend to be the easiest. Try to do it outside the U, to avoid the surgery mentality if you don't think this is a career option. I heard good things about the VA and St. Joe's. Use "Surgery Recall" to study from, use the online notes compiled by previous students for the oral exam. Practice out loud with another student.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 13:31:49 (EST)
    Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • Great site, decent educators, great director who loves having students in the OR. Best part is opportunity to see other sub-specialties: with no other students around, it's easy to step in for a neuro, ortho, etc. case to broaden your experience.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 13:21:11 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • If you're NOT interested in surgery, go to the VA or St. Joe's because you'll work less hours and definitely have less scut.

    If you are interested in surgery, stay at the U--you'll want to get recommendations from the attendings you work with during your rotations.

    I did peds and SVA and loved both of them. Peds was intense and I got pimped a lot, but I saw a great variety of surgeries and learned a ton. It's very fellow-dependent compared to other services. SVA is hit or miss depending on what emergencies come in; some days we sat around or did scut for the interns, other days were crazy. However the attendings were the BEST and the shelf covers a lot of vascular diseases.

    Here's what I heard about the other services:
    - SON and GSE are the best for having light hours
    - SGI is good because the shelf has a lot of GI on it
    - TBE has long hours and is high on the scut factor
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 13:17:49 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • I did peds surgery at the U.

    The good: I got to work with kids, got to do lots of floor management, and got to see lots of cool cases. Also, NO PRE-ROUNDING! Get to the hospital at 0615, which after 0500 at St. Joe's, felt like a lazy sleep-in.

    The bad: On peds surgery, the field is often centimeters wide and you're far from it.

    The ugly: 92 hour weeks. 'Nuff said.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 13:16:17 (EST)
    Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • The good: you're out at a reasonable hour most days because of lectures at the U. Call schedule is very light. And yet you get to see interesting patients.

    The bad: You don't get much floor management experience, which is what is emphasized on the shelf.

    The ugly: Arriving at the hospital at 5:00 AM (or earlier) and the military-style discipline (I called my attending's 'sir' and they didn't mind).
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 12:49:22 (EST)
    Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • Loved surgery at the Joe, even though I knew I wasn't interested in the field. I spent tons of time in the OR. The attendings taught with very little pimping. Most were laid back (especially Dr. Mazzeo). The attendings encouraged seeing other surgeries like ortho, if there were no cases on the team you were assigned to that were interesting. Didactics were fantastic. There is 1-2 students to a team and more than enough work for everyone. The residents were very appreciative of any work you did that was above what was expected. They did their best to minimize scut work. There is also lots of time to study. You get to participate in surgery, more than just retracting. You also get to learn how to change central lines and put lines in, but mostly you just change lines. I really liked all the time in the OR. I felt like I was a part of the team. I also felt more than adequately prepared for the shelf exam and the oral exams. Plus, call is Q5-6 depending on the number of students. Some calls were very busy, but you were actively involved, while many calls I slept all night. It just depended on the resident who was on call. Also, you got to see bread and butter stuff like appendectomies, lumpectomies(breast, thyroid, parathyroid), cholecystectomies, mastectomies, amd lots of abdominal surgeries.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 12:15:48 (EST)
    Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • Most people say that if you want to do surg you should stay at the U, but I wouldn't rule out St. Joe's for a month. I was able to see many more cases than other students at the U. If you're on a gen surg team, you see a wide variety. Most residents and attendings are interested in teaching and advising. Not a lot of scut, and pre-rounding isn't that big of a burden, plus you get out earlier. You also have the opportunity to watch/scrub in on cases on other teams and subspecialties (ortho, cardic, uro) when your service is slow.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 11:57:03 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • if you are thinking about going into surgery, rotate as much as you can at the Univ.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 11:49:15 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • If you want to do surgery, stay at the U.
    Everyone gets a general month: SGI, SON, or GSE; if you want to do general surgery, try to get SGI.
    Another good month is peds surgery, depending on the fellows from year to year, very general surgical experience; and if you are interested in peds-related fields, this is a good perspective.
    For your second month: SVA and TBE are very busy, and might be more useful as a 4th year in terms of lots of procedural experience. you may as a third year, get to do stuff on SVA. TBE is SGI in fast forward, you may get to hold the trauma phone.
    Try to avoid Cardio-thoracic unless specifically interested because PA's run the service. Transplant is episodic, one night might do a liver and kidney, might not do anything for other nights, but you may get to ride in the helicopter.
    I did SGI and peds and was happy, with time to read, and good exposure to bread and butter general surgery.
    My friend did SVA period 4, and got to put lines in which is unusual (being early in the year, and being an m3).
    A lot of your experience may depend on your team.
    SVA = vascular, TBE = trauma, SGI = GI surg, SON = surg onc, GSE = endocrine; with all of SGI, SON, GSE doing general.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 11:44:49 (EST)
    Name: Vetrans Administration
  • VA is great for those who want to see basic surgery, but don't want to work a ton. Home call. Total of 2-3 cases per day. You get vascular and general surgery. Write your notes in the AM and you don't have to go back after lecture. The vascular fellow let each of us do an entire toe amputation:>
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 11:41:37 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • General Endocrine is great if you are not going into surgery (or even if you are since one of the three attendings is the residency director.) It's generally a lighter service. Mostly home call. All of the attendings are really wonderful. Some major surgeries like Whipples, for panc CA pts. You will see way too many thyroids though.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 11:36:27 (EST)
    Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • When I did surgery they let us do two months at the Joe. That pretty much rocked. I kept hearing about everyone's horror stories from the U, while everybody at the Joe is so nice and let you do stuff. The trade-off is supposed to be that you have to pre-round, and therefore have be there at the buttcrack of dawn. However, some teams didn't even do this, and even when you DO have to do it, it's not that big of a deal because if you don't go to lecture very much you are basically done at 3pm (because they have to let you out for lecture).
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 11:17:08 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • If you're interested in surgery, do it at the U. If not, try to avoid it. I was interested in surgery and did trauma/burn and peds surg. Had a great time with both. Never got called while on call for peds surg. Trauma/burn call nights are really busy, but you see some interesting stuff.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 11:16:38 (EST)
    Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • As opposed to OB/GYN at St. Joes, surg there was awesome. Very low on scut, very high on going to cases. Residents all very friendly.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 11:03:34 (EST)
    Name: Vetrans Administration
  • The VA is an awesome place to do surgery, as there is a lot more autonomy and opportunity to participate in cases. I spent two months there and LOVED IT! Residents and faculty know you are there to LEARN, not to do SCUT.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 10:55:03 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • I did a month of Surg Onc and really enjoyed it. Most of the attendings are pretty nice to work with, and you get to see a lot of patients who pertain to the oral and shelf exams: colon cancer, breast cancer, melanoma, abdominal surgeries... The hours can be long, but they don't seem to be quite as long as some of the other U rotations. You're usually out between 5 and 7 each night.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 10:53:22 (EST)
    Name: St. Joseph Mercy Hospital
  • Pick a month at St. Joe's! The residents and attendings really care about students and take the time out to teach, eat breakfast and lunch, and give you positive feedback. The atmosphere is more laidback than at the U, but you still learn a lot.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 10:46:55 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
  • I wanted to do surgery so I was at the U. 2 good friends of mine wanted to do family practice so they went to St. Joe's and liked being there (shorter hours, easier experience). I loved my rotations but that may be because this is what I want to do. I would suggest the U but it may not be for everyone.
    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 10:23:48 (EST)
    Name: Vetrans Administration
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    Wednesday, January 28, 2004 -- 10:12:37 (EST)
    Name: University of Michigan Hospitals
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