BTRVETC-L Digest Volume 98 : Issue 39 10 Jun 1998 Today's Topics: Re: BTRVETC-L Digest V98 #38 Re: Burnetts Burnett Copyright Burnetts Re: information vs publishing Re: Burnetts Burnetts John Turner b 1800 Elias Burnett Selling info, copyright infringement, appreciating others' efforts Re: John Turner b 1800 (no subject) To Jerry Baker Re:ROSS News from Dickenson County ,Va. in 1890s Administrivia: for the Burnett/Turner/Ross/Via/Etc Mailing List (BTRVETC-L) Welcome to all our new subscribers; please send us a message to let us know what lines you are working on. :-) We became automated 19 Jan 1998, with everyone that had been on Nyla Creed DePauk's list of subscribers being subscribed to the digest, which (kind) replaces the compilations. There is also a regular list, where you receive messages one at a time. If you wish that version, unsubscribe from the digest, and subscribe to the regular list (see below). Please do not send your emails to Nyla any longer; if you do, she will send them to the list. Please post your messages to: btrvetc-l@genealogy.org (that's a lowercase ell, not a number one.) ***** Do not send attachments or multipart MIME messages to the list! ***** ***** Send only plain text. Microsoft Outlook and Express seem to do ***** ***** this without the poster knowing. Check your configuration. ***** ***** Thanks! ***** To unsubscribe, email btrvetc-d-request@genealogy.org with the SUBJECT: UNSUBSCRIBE. To subscribe to the regular list, email btrvetc-l-request@genealogy.org with the SUBJECT: SUBSCRIBE You can also use the web page at: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~cgaunt/BTRVETC/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 20:24:47 -0500 From: Sharon Crawford To: BTRVETC-L@genealogy.org Subject: Re: BTRVETC-L Digest V98 #38 Message-ID: <3579EBDF.42FB@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In reading the post from Jerry Baker I guess I ought be happy that the information in volume 3 about my Cornelius S.Burnett's family was full of errors. My Burnett page is at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/6432 along with information I have picked up on Oklahoma Burnetts. Also was interested in the post from Jerry Lou "For the reasons that have been stated in the last compulation, I do not give my Genealogy to anyone." And wondered if after asking and receiving my Burnett line that this was the reason the return post just said "sorry, all I have is about dates". -- Sharon Crawford mailto:scburn1@earthlink.net OKbits http://www.rootsweb.com/~okbits/index.htm Garvin Co. OKGenWeb http://www.rootsweb.com/~okgarvin/garvin.htm Burnett Page http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/6432/ Crawford*Gosser: http://home.earthlink.net/~scburn1/ Wright Page http://www.angelfire.com/ok/oklahoman/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 00:33:39 -0400 From: Jerry Baker To: CarBurCo@aol.com CC: BTRVETC-L@genealogy.org, KYROOTS@LSV.UKY.EDU Subject: Re: Burnetts Message-ID: <357A1823.4A7F@hyperaction.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CarBurCo@aol.com wrote: > > All I can say to what Jerry is: > > When a professional genealogist writes an extensive book on the genealogy > of one family and copyrights it, that person (June Bork in this case) has put > a lot of time and study into a ponderously intricate, DOCUMENTED work. Your > names are your own, and of course you CAN put anything you want online, but > not necessarily legally and CERTAINLY not ethically. The docmentation to prove > it and the time and effort put into the genealogical interaction as a WHOLE > comes under copyright. THEREFORE, if a large portion of it is plagerized, then > it is a prosecutable offense, which is why we HAVE copyrights in the first > place. > > Caroline Burnett Cook Hello Caroline I guess i thought more of you for you helped me a long time ago. and as far as June goes I have done nothing wrong the info I have came from this list and other places. ANYONE can get I think I asked you many times and you gave it to me! I think that make s you as bad as me giving her info to others!!!! Now the stuff she has in her book is not on my page Deeds, ship logs, etc. I do have a will it maybe in her book but it came off of the BTRVETC list so is the list as bad as me? You know the old timers that think they own the genealogical world (you, June, and some other) need to wake up I posted my stuff on the web for all the new comers, it is for them. No asking and then being told for $XX.XX amount you can have this infomation, I was so glade to get the information on my family and were they came from that I thought of what I could do to show my support to others, and all I could do was share it and I will so. The only reason she wants it down is the almighty dollar she thanks I have costed her a sale or two, well if I did they were never going to pay for her books any way. I have my Warren side Back to France, Mills to Pitt Co. NC., Bakers to NC. and so many more I have copies of Marriege Bonds, Discharge papers, photos and more and will share them with all if I can help someone with them for nothing. I was going to send June copies of Stehpen Burnett and more for her book but I would say I wont know, I want to beable to us them later. I to plan on doing a book but it is for my son and him only it will be my gift as a father to a son his family tree so he will know more about himself. Now I may have not been working on this for 25 year but you never asked me how long I have been doing this so you should think before you jump to the aid of you friend and wanting to say the thing about me you were trying to say nicely. So next time you give out the information you have think of June and the Copyright laws you and her think everyone is going around you have done it to over the list for years. And to the person that liked the clan badge thank you it took me years before I found a photo of it that I could see well enough to get any colors off of it and it was the Burnett key chain. P.S. I do respect her for her time in doing the stuff she has done and with out her help with the names she gave me just enough to hook me into her book I would have never got as far as I did. But the people who share the same feelings for this as I do will share information with each other. So I have the information on my web page for all to see and use if they can. -- Jerry Baker nWo 4-Life CEO nWo MotorSports Sim Racing's most winning team ever! nWo's Main Pages http://www.hyperaction.net/jbaker/ nWo Fan Club http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/2320/fan_club.html R.A.P. Member http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/6328/ SRA Member http://www.miracing.com/sra/home.htm Team Sponsors Hitz http://www.datacom-hitz.com/hitz/ Baker Design's http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/7839/designs.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 03:41:59 -0400 From: "GK Turner" To: Cc: , Subject: Burnett Copyright Message-Id: <199806070743.DAA04539@preferred.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't believe any of us qualify as copyright lawyers and it would appear to me that's from whom we need to hear. (Surely there's a Brunett lawyer out there who could help) If we say copyright law forbids Jerry from helping others better know their roots, then I would suggest we "all" are guilty. Carrying this one step further begs the question as to whether all subjects and material in the Library of Congress is also "out of bounds". Assuming that we all agree that everything can't be "out of bounds", then wherein is June's protection. Certainly her material has value and has been gathered at considerable expense. June must have "rights" in this debate or the need for copyright law would be moot. May I submit that we "all" need to be informed as to just what is correct before going much further. Again I renew my request for a qualified member of the family help us to understand that which must be considered. And please Jerry, let's drop the "money" angle... It cost money to publish and that's a fact we can't dispute. I promise you June didn't start out, years ago, to make a million! And June, need to polish your "authoritative, no recourse" email that you drop on people. It certainly begs a "battle". (assuming copies viewed are 'true copies') My advance years has proven that most people want to cooperate if a comprise is offered. Now I am a Turner, therefore just have a small dog in this hunt, and certainly do not suggest I'm the guru here! However I can't help but believe that as family, Jerry doesn't want to see his cousin "walked on", and neither does Judy want her cousin deprived of his roots. Maybe if you could start over again on this basis.................. GKTurner Proud Direct Descendant of "Shadrack Turner(1)" PS: And if anyone can help me cross the big water to my direct line, Shadrack, John,Richard..... Would like to know before I die if I'm ENGLISH, SCOTT, IRISH or ANY COMBINATION THEREOF... I desire my demise be cause for a huge party, all family invited. So, which shall it be... A Wake, Highland Games or do we just gather at the Pub ?... love to all the family! you Judy didn't ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 08:12:34 -0400 From: "lndshll" To: "Burnett Turner News Letter" Subject: Burnetts Message-ID: <000501bd920d$8e28a360$5ce6aec7@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ya'll I think we all need to stop knocking June and at least try to see her side of things.I am all for sharing with each other but some of you are overlooking the fact that some big companies are getting information off of our websites and June's books and reselling the information on disc for 39.99 each.June has helped me alot to find my Chrisenberry Burnett and his family. E-mailing back and forth. Not one time did she say go to my website or maybe you should buy the book(s). She just helped with no strings attached.I see her helping so many others,so how about giving her a break. Linda Burnett Shull ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 11:38:41 EDT From: To: BTRVETC-L@genealogy.org Subject: Re: information vs publishing Message-ID: <9dacf9b1.357ab402@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Jerry, I don't think anyone objects to passing on information and of course I gave you information. That is what the lists are for. I couldn't reach your webpage (must be aol acting up again) but I take your word for what is on it. If you didn't copy her information, etc. that is not plagerism and neither is passing along your line or finding information for someone else on their line. That is what these email lists are for, and the webpage, too, I guess. Except for one difference: when you put something on a webpage, that is PUBLISHING, so you have to be careful to attribute quotes and not use large chunks of someone's work verbatim. As for being an old-timer... I may be older than you (but maybe not) however, I do respect the work of a professional genealogist and researcher. If I sent you information and I didn't tell you that I got my information from June's book... then you are absolutely right: I was WRONG. Not "BAD." But there is a place for ethics, even among us amateurs....maybe ESPECIALLY among us. Regards, Caroline In a message dated 98-06-07 00:29:41 EDT, you write: << I guess i thought more of you for you helped me a long time ago. and as far as June goes I have done nothing wrong the info I have came from this list and other places. ANYONE can get I think I asked you many times and you gave it to me! I think that make s you as bad as me giving her info to others!!!! Now the stuff she has in her book is not on my page Deeds, ship logs, etc. I do have a will it maybe in her book but it came off of the BTRVETC list so is the list as bad as me? You know the old timers that think they own the genealogical world (you, June, and some other) need to wake up I posted my stuff on the web for all the new comers, it is for them >> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:03:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christine E. Gaunt" To: Jerry Baker , June Baldwin Bork cc: BTRVETC-L@genealogy.org, KYROOTS Subject: Re: Burnetts Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, Folks, I think we are discussing something that is both very personal and yet very global -- the use of published material on web sites. Personal because for us it's our family histories, global because I'm sure other web pages on other topics are most likely doing the very same thing. Published now means anything in print, on CD, on tape, or digital. See the following web sites for US Copyright info: US Copyright Office http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/ or Copyright Basics http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ1.html (this one's fairly readable!) and Copyright Law http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/title17/ I know folks are taking stuff out of books, off web pages (ie logos, graphics, etc) and mailing list messages, and putting it on their web sites without so much as a "Gee, I really like your , may I use it?". From the reading I've done, this is wrong. Much better would be to *link* to the site as a reference. (See the Web Law FAQ by Oppedahl & Larson at http://www.patents.com/weblaw.sht ) Or to get the copyright holder's permission to include their work. I have found there is a grey area called "fair use", but I think that it would be much preferable to communicate with the individual(s), asking permission to use whatever. Why should we care? How about because the genealogy community is one of the most polite and caring groups there is? (Sandi Gorin, I'm *so* glad you're well enough to post!) Because even though some of us are doing this out of love for our families, others are doing it because it's their livelyhood and they have to pay their bills and put food on their table like everyone else. Yes, I know people will share information, but it is always nice to give credit where it's due. If you haven't seen June Baldwin Bork's books on the Burnett family, you are missing some great work. She has deeds, wills, census info, tax info, and more, which support her line of reasoning. It is the line of reasoning that is the glue that holds her books together, and I believe it is this line of reasoning that is copyrighted. You can send for the supporting documentation yourself, which is what anyone would do, to see if indeed the reasoning is solid. Jerry, you will notice if you visit her web site (at http://www.junebaldwinbork.com/page3.html#volume one ) that the third volume contains corrections and additions to the first two volumes. If you are getting information from the Internet, then how do you know where it came from? It might have come from June's books, but possibly the sources were not included in messages, etc. I noticed that you list your sources as: "The information I have came from the internet, and may other places and people and my family Such as BTRVETC-L@genealogy.org The above information can be gathered buy this group of people join the list and start asking, The Gathering of the Clans web page ( they have a message board ), And fellow Burnetts on the net that I have meet." Source: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/3270/Burnett_Tree.html It would be much more beneficial to any cousins you may hook up with to have the exact sources, even if you are using a web page or mailing list archive. Then they can go to these sites and judge for themselves. What good is a genealogy if it's not valid? How can we tell if it's valid without itemized resources listed? Jerry, if June helped you in compiling your family history, then why not put that on your web page? How much time did she spend on just your family? Did she ask for payment? June, maybe the wording of your initial email to Jerry could have been revised somewhat? I can understand both points of view -- I know how really nice it can be to hook up with cousins, no matter how distant, who help you along in your research, and you want to pass along that information. But I also know how unsettling it is if your hard work has been copied and put on the net (folks have done this with my web site). I only hope that there can be a meeting of the minds rather than a meeting of the lawyers! Chris Christine Gaunt, cgaunt@umich.edu or gaunt@genealogy.org Campbell-L and BTRVETC-L listowner Co-compiler of Genealogy Resources on the Internet Web: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~cgaunt/gen_int1.html File (2.4M): via autoreply from gresinet.txt@genealogy.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:00:45 -0400 From: "lndshll" To: "Burnett Turner News Letter" Subject: Burnetts Message-ID: <000001bd9246$98394ce0$d0ceafce@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi' I am trying to find out about a couple of Burnetts. Chrisenberry Lee Burnett & Sophrina Oglesby b.Jan.1855 b.??? children: John C Burnett b.Dec.1884 William "Willie" Burnett b.Nov.1888 John and William were my grandfathers brothers (Half).William went to Saratoga,California and William "Willie" went to Forsythe,Georgia.They were both born in Spartanburg, South Carolina.I can't seem to find them once they left SC.Anybody got any leads???Any help would be appreciated!! Thanks, Linda Burnett Shull ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 00:45:06 -0700 From: Penny To: btrvetc-l@genealogy.org Subject: John Turner b 1800 Message-ID: <357B9682.A96FBA7F@bmi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I have finally been able to place my John Turner b 1800 Wilkes Co., GA. He was the son of James Turner, and grandson of Meshack Turner. Nyla, Thank you for all of the time you put in, moderating and making it interesting to read. David for all of his time to keep us doing the right thing, and Janice who questions what should be questioned if we get to anxious to add our lines to the already established lines. I am so greatful that each of you has given so I could find my next generations back in time. Anyone out there that is a cousin and would like a copy of the gedcom or txt files for John Please email me. pennym@bmi.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:23:35 -0400 From: "lndshll" To: "Burnett Turner News Letter" Subject: Elias Burnett Message-ID: <000101bd92d8$42ef1d40$cad2afce@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi,I have found a death certificate of Elias Burnett (Son of Woodson Burnett). I found it looking for a different Elias Burnett. Certificate of Death State of South Carolina #6471 Place of death: County of Spartanburg Township of Cherokee Full Name: Elias Burnett Male White Married Date of Birth: Dec.28,1822 Age: 97 yrs 2 months and 10 days Occupation: Unable to Work Birthplace: SC Name of Father: Woodson Burnett Maiden name of Mother: Susan Burnett Birthplace of Father: SC Birthplace of Mother: SC informant: Jud McDaniel address:Cherokee SC Date of Death: March 8,1920 Cause of Death: Carcinoma of Liver,Stomach and Bowels Duration: 19 days MD.J B Cash Buried Arrowood Church Linda Burnett Shull lndshll@sprynet.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:46:15 -0500 From: "Kevin K. Stephenson" To: "'Burnett Family Newsgroup'" Subject: Selling info, copyright infringement, appreciating others' efforts Message-ID: <01BD92F5.6BC72CE0.kevin2@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi cousins! I feel compelled to comment on several of the conversations which have occurred lately concerning the accuracy of genealogical data, violation of copyright laws, and the propriety of 'paying' for genealogical data. I'm a law student at the University of Kansas, as many of you know, and I just finished studying Patent and Copyright Law last semester. First of all, let me say that I am DEEPLY GRATEFUL for the efforts that others have made in the search for genealogical material on the Burnett family, as well as the related lines. My maternal grandfather, Ralph Burnett, raised me, and my grandmother, his wife, Ethel, was the one who got me interested in genealogy in the first place. I found out over the last two summers, firsthand, how time consuming and expensive it is to go do a lot of the research yourself. I travelled to Indiana and Kentucky in search of Burnett info, and spent close to a thousand dollars on a trip of less than a week. I therefore am MORE THAN WILLING to spend a couple of hundred dollars for the full set of June Bork's books, which comprise about 30 years of faithful research. The time alone that it would take to gather that data is worth much more than she's charged. I also know that June's research is very meticulous and totally reliable. I am willing to share anything I have found with anyone who asks, but for those who have expended large amounts of time and money to create something of value for the rest of us to use, I don't object to helping to pay for it. After all, the free enterprise system and pursuit of profit is what created the computer industry and an internet capable of allowing us to communicate with each other about this information. If it hadn't been for a posting I made to Family Tree Maker's website, I would never have known of the Burnett-Turner Newsgroup. Thanks to Nyla's response to my posting, I became a member and subsequently unearthed another 500 years of my ancestry. With regard to the Family Tree Maker CD's, etc...any time you rely on information gathered by others, you need to make a judgment as to its reliability. The Family Tree Maker CD's that I've bought are indeed full of errors...however, there are also some valuable leads in them if you verify the data and dig deeper... and some of the submissions are very accurate. You need to assess the accuracy of the material before you add it to your own, if necessary by contacting the submitter and getting references to their sources. Some of FTM's other CD's include marriage, land, birth, and death records which were gathered by field personnel visiting courthouses all over the U.S. This is, again, a very expensive proposition to undertake on your own, so I don't mind paying for the information that I can get from them, since it's much cheaper than I can get it myself. I initially was pretty perturbed at the thought of paying someone to find out where I came from, but now that I know what it costs to go and do it, I'm glad someone else is willing to save me the time and expense. I think we need to put it in the proper perspective, and distinguish between the folks who're trying to recoup their costs, and perhaps pay for future research, and those who are simply speculating to make a buck. Family Tree Maker, granted, is in it for the money, but they're providing a valuable service at the same time, and they care enough about the genealogical community to furnish grants for genealogical research projects based on need and value to the genealogical community. With regard to the violation of patents when posting material to the internet...when someone has compiled a body of factual information, the facts themselves are not copyrightable. The arrangement of those facts, or an author's interpretation of them, can be, because those things constitute an original effort on the part of the author/compiler, apart from the gathering of the facts. I would think that it would be extremely difficult to prove copyright infringement where someone has posted facts to an internet site, because (1)it would be difficult to prove exactly where they came from, and (2) the facts themselves aren't protected by the copyright. If, however, someone posted, verbatim, a passage from a book which was written about those facts, then there are grounds for infringement. Aren't we all, ultimately, searching for who we are, and where we're from, and isn't the most important thing to help each other find out these things? I think the fact that, in the long run, we're all 'family', should dictate that we help each other all we can, and helping includes not stealing from each other, and helping to repay someone who's spent a lot of time and money doing something that's benefitted the rest of us. It also includes not trying to keep one another from having or sharing information that will help someone else find the 'link' they've been looking for. Kevin K. Stephenson 1600 Kentucky St. #2 Lawrence, Kansas 66044 (785)865-1586 Fax/Data: (785)865-2555 e-mail: kevinS@ukans.edu website: http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~kevin2/homepage.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:36:26 EDT From: To: pennym@bmi.net, btrvetc-l@genealogy.org Subject: Re: John Turner b 1800 Message-ID: <97c79e1c.357c919b@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Penny and All, Thank you for your kind words. I've enjoyed every minute I spent with the Burnett-Turner-Ross-Via-Etc/Etc list. And I have truly enjoyed meeting all my cousins onLine. Lots of folks have very generously contributed information on their family. You folks are the greatest. Nyla ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 20:41:06 -0500 From: "Ann D. Scott" To: "btrvetc-l@genealogy.org" Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <357C92B1.305A4771@nalu.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit unsubscribe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 04:46:42 -0700 From: jbbork@ix.netcom.com To: BTRVETC-L@genealogy.org Subject: To Jerry Baker Message-ID: <357D20A2.4BBF@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been sick for several days and have not been able to answer any of my mail. Yes, I agree with everyone - I do owe you a public apology. My initial letter to you sounded like a lion out of a cage. I suppose it was caused by fear that we would lose the little income that we do receive from my book business. You see, my husband and I are 70 years old and live on Social Security which does not go very far and must depend upon the sale of books for extra imperative needs and if there is enough left over, I use it to further the study of the Burnetts in Scotland. Remember when you first wrote me and told me that all you knew was your grandfather's name was BIGE BURNETT and did not know his real name, plus where he lived. This was all I had to go on. I worked for 3 whole days to find your connection to our line of Burnetts and finally found that "Bige" was a nick-name for "Abijah," the son of Frances Burnett and Steve Bowlin. That was a very difficult problem to solve. I sent you the names and dates of your ancestors and did not ask for any payment. If you had paid to have your family researched, this alone would have cost you a lot of money. So I am not all that money hungry, but have tried to help everyone that I can. Again, I am sorry. /s/ June ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:12:27 EDT From: To: BTRVETC-L@genealogy.org Subject: Re:ROSS News from Dickenson County ,Va. in 1890s Message-ID: <909c66e4.357e944c@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I came across this in the Va-Roots list. Thought the ROSSes might be interested if this man is their ancestor. It is part of a newspaper column sent in by LOUISE VANOVER VORE. cmp13mge@gte.net Caroline Burnett Cook In a message dated 98-06-09 22:41:52 EDT, you write: << DICKENSON COUNTY NEWSPAPER in 1890s name of paper unknown William Ross, of Pond Creek, Oklahoma, is visiting his parents at this place this week. Mr. Ross went from this place when the "strip" was opened for settlement, and has been fairly successful, having secured a good homestead, and been appointed County Superintendent of Schools of the county in which he located. -------------------------------- End of btrvetc-d Digest V98 Issue #39 *************************************