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Want to hear from EVERYONE...        Posted by:  J. R.
6/11/99    07:36 AM
 
I know that's not a topic. *shrug* Wanted to get your attention.
Okay, here's my question: We've dealt with the issue as to why there are so few female gamers, and will probably will for quite some time, whenever someone makes a comment that sends us a bit of insight. But, why so many WW/LARP'ers? What is the attraction? What is so different about those systems that women equal if not outnumber the male players? Is tabletop any less personal or creative?

TIA
 

Untitled        Posted by:  Savage angel in response to Want to hear from EVERYONE...
6/11/99    08:20 AM

its because women like to play with toy guns as much as men do, and that we can say what we like with feeling, instead of turning round and saying, "ok my character is going to get angry and say this"
***************************************************
You know I couldn't be me if it wasn't for you
I feel like shit and look like plastic but I'll get through
You know it's plain to see what's going to do
As long as it don't get too drastic then we can't lose

terrorvision: middleman
 

Untitled        Posted by:  A. M. in response to Want to hear from EVERYONE...
6/11/99    08:53 AM

I haven't played WW stuff in a while, but I know that one of the things that interested me in Vampire was that combat wasn't  really necessary most of the time. I find most combat tedious. I like interpersonal interactions and intrigue. Vampire was the first game I ran into that gave me the opportunity to do those things regularly and frequently.

I suspect that the early WW material also has the appeal of starting with present day Western settings so that female characters don't have to deal with quite so many world prejudices. (The medieval settings are obviously going to be different.)

WW also has the advantage that it's not really necessary to understand the rules to play. Since every book reinterpreted the rules (Try figuring out the Mage paradox rules...), each GM had to create his/her own version of the game as a whole.

I think that Vampire was published at a time when culture in the US in general was hospitable to the whole mythos and that that mythology had been aimed more at women than at men. I'm not sure what impact the authors' use of feminine pronouns when referring to players had, but I suspect that that made the game seem more welcoming because it assumed a female audience.

I should add that the WW material drives me crazy because history is a hobby of mine, and much of the WW universe doesn't  make sense. I also like functional indexes and attention to minor details. (I got really mad when they gave a Russian female sample character the last name "Ivanovitch." Not only is that a patronymic rather  than a family name, but it also indicates that the person in question is the "son of Ivan.")

I also don't buy the idea that the WW universe wouldn't have fallen apart ages ago if it existed as written, but... There's a certain amount of fun and challenge in playing a character who has to figure out how to survive when really overmatched by the rest of the universe.

As you can see from all of the above, I'm rather ambivalent about WW's games. I'm not sure I've expressed my opinions very clearly, but it is something I've thought about a good bit.

I don't personally care for Vampire LARPs because I don't like the rules system. It's dreadfully clunky and gets in the way of things more than it helps. It's also (at least in my limited experience) fairly easy to cheat. Of course, by the time those rules were published, I'd been running LARPs with my own rules for many years, so I have a definite bias.
 

Untitled        Posted by:  L. F. in response to Want to hear from EVERYONE...
6/11/99    09:47 AM

Hi J.

> But, Why so many WW/LARP'ers? What is the attraction? What is so
>different about those systems that women equal if not outnumber the male
>players?
My personal opinion is that the White Wolf system takes place in the modern world, so women are around in critical positions anyway. It's easier to accept a woman vampire or werewolf than a woman Paladin or Rogue, for example.

L.


 
RE:  L.        Posted by C. B. in response to Untitled by L. F.
6/18/99    10:44 AM
 
I don't really agree with that. I've played with men before who tried to exclude me from group interaction because I was female, and women weren't important in medieval times, but if you are playing in a fantasy setting, the rules of our world don't apply. No game that I've played has ever made a distinction between sexes, and I don't think it's fair to yourself to impose such limitations on your own.

 
I agree with C.        Posted by:  R. H. in response to RE:  L.
6/18/99    07:03 PM

Maybe I've just been a bit on the lucky side but I've never had any trouble being accepted. Then again, the folks I play with, LARP and Table Top, believe in the FANTASY part of FRP. It's all about 'Heroic Fantasy' and in our minds heros aren't just men any more.

I wonder if people just get tired of trying to find the right chemistry in a group and that is why they find themselves in groups that have a problem with women.

Never settle for being less important just so you can play! Make them all live up to your standards!
 

Untitled        Posted by:  nicoLe is breathing in response to Want to hear from EVERYONE...
6/11/99    09:50 AM

i have never LARPed (despite repeated promises to get out and go sometime), but from what i gather, the LARPs are more social and interactive. it's easier to get drawn in to. not to say girl gamers aren't going to like tabletop games also, but the LARPs are a more appealing start. i actually got my start from my parents when i was too young to remember playing ad&d and have been playing ever since. i think once you find a good game, it is hard to tear yourself away. maybe there just aren't enough opportunities for girls to actually get into a good tabletop game. *shrug* just my $3.

*snowflakes*
--nicoLe


 
Untitled        Posted by:  C. L. in response to Want to hear from EVERYONE...
6/11/99    10:35 AM

There has been a lot of talk about why women are more prevalent in storyteller games and LARPs and I think most people hit the nail right on the head: it's not that table-top is less creative, but it is more restricted (except for diceless like Amber, which I understand also has a large female following), and roleplay itself is not rewarded (i.e., not reflected in the experience points your character generates). WW and LARP games are more free-form, and reward roleplay over per se "experience." Any game where your character can earn experience by roleplaying (for example) a flaw like "Soft Hearted" in WW, which would discourage you from ever entering straight combat, is light years away from D&D and its ilk. I still enjoy playing D&D, but grow frustrated when the straight rules are used, and prefer to modify the system to allow more roleplay in the high fantasy setting (which I enjoy).

c.
 

Untitled        Posted by:  K. G-S. in response to Want to hear from EVERYONE...
6/11/99    11:03 AM

Women like to play dress up more than they like sitting around a table with donuts and Mountain Dew? :) Personally I prefer tabletop, but I know quite a few female LARPers that would look at you like you have an iguana growing out of your head if you suggested they participate in a tabletop game. Maybe it's a difference of pure imagination vs props. <shrug>
K.


 
My two cents, and hello!        Posted by:  M. B. in response to Want to hear from EVERYONE...
6/11/99    03:12 PM

For myself, I started roleplaying by accident. I joined a club on campus that turned out to be a LARP group. After that I found a few table top groups to join. LARPS are alot easier to join. i mean, you walk in a say you want to play. (My first WW/LARP they said, ok you are a wraith do you know rock paper scissors?) The thing is, in my table top games, there are still alot of females. I prefer table top to the LARP most of hte time. You can do more if more is left to your imagination. You can also cover more game time that way and change locations more often. I like to travel, even if it is only with my characters.

Fighting is just annoying in any game to me. A battle that takes a minute in game time can take half an hour in real time. I do avoid games that center around the 'swift and often shocking violence' ethic, so WW is better in that way. I do enjoy D&D too, but the storytellers tend to modify the rules on experience points.

Wow, i said alot. I'll shut up now.

M.


 
Untitled        Posted by:  I. M. in response to Want to hear from EVERYONE...
6/11/99    10:12 PM

Think of it this way. At an average theatrical audition, there are more women than men. I think many male gamers like to keep it on paper. I am the only female in my gaming group and I've tried to get them to LARP with no success. Too little bloody combat for them I think. LARPing spends more time on the personal interaction and politics than actual hack and slash.

"Kali Luckbringer"
 

Response to all of you        Posted by:  J. R. in response to Want to hear from EVERYONE...
6/12/99    03:12 AM

Savage_angel: Haven't you ever played with a tabletop group where you _don't_ say 'my char says blah blah blah', but actually have to do the talking? (probably the roots of LARPing comes from gamers like these.)

Our esteemed Hostess A.: Most of those problems you'll note are characteristics of the gm, not the system. I knew a WW storyteller who ran a Marvel game where it was mostly intrigue and interaction. Bad move, cause I think the players switched to Marvel to intentionally get some rampaging in, but... I have never played in a medievil/fantasy game where the women suffered biases. Guess I just play with a bunch of level headed people.

Unclear rules is an advantage?!?! Since when? I like being able to go to cons and btwn local gms and not have to learn new systems for the same system.

Strong sexual bias--toward males or toward females--is wrong. I noticed the WW books saying everything in female pronouns; I thought it was weird. The only way to be even-handed about it is to either say both, or just have enough self-confidence that using one particular pronoun to represent a mixed group doesn't upset you.
(Btw, my roomie owns every Rifts book and has them almost perfectly committed to memory, and he told me that both Rifts and DnD have in the beginnings of one book or another, disclaimers that they realise not all their players will be male, but rather than type s/he and his/her throughout the entire book, they'd save you paper (ie $) and just use the male pronouns.)

L. (and anyone else with this point of view): I prefer to look at it this way: I'm not going to say a world I'm running is similar to real medievil times, these are the stories of people above and beyond the ordinary. That includes the women. Normally, a woman in this society may be nothing more than a whore or housewife, but this is a woman who is special, just like my male characters. She went out of her way to find a truely equal-minded Paladin to learn the arts from, or some theif she catches off-guard with her dagger to his neck to get his respect, etc.

T.: I wish I could get all you who were looking for good and equal tabletop games to my town, you'd have an array to choose from.

C.: You have played in tabletop games where rp was not rewarded?! *gasp* How aweful. Not in our games! I hardly did anything action-wise one night and still got 500 exp just for playing my character. Marvel has rules for dealing out Karma for good jokes and stuff (that's non-combat stuff); Rifts has exp for skill usage (non-combat) good plans (not necessarily comat oriented) and for general rp. And, again, any game you play in which you can't just describe what you want to do and the gm either tells you how they want you to do it or explains to you concretely why you cannot attempt such an action, isn't the game's fault, this is called a bad gm. Don't fault the system for it. I do what I can to allow my players to do what they want, even though it may open me up to some inconsistancy from time to time.

[cut from email response]:'> (If you'd like to find out more about J. - just come to http://www.sixdegrees.com and search for their name in our 'member directory'.)' Or just ask.

M.: You said alot? Get aload of this... :) I'm not a munchkin by any means, but for me the societal intrigue bores the shit out of me. My confilct has to be at least possibly violent in nature. I can do a whole lot of non-combat, but eventually, I want to beat up on something. It's just part of gaming. Otherwise, it's not rpg, it's rpso (role-playing soap opera.)

Any other comments?
(Btw, Thanks to all!!)


 
Untitled        Posted by:  J. G. in response to Want to hear from EVERYONE...
6/12/99    09:57 PM

My guess is that it's because LARP is not as stat based...one doesn't have to remember and constantly refer to quite so many rules. As well, LARP's tend to cater to political and social character types, whereas most (but certainly not all) tabletop games that are all or mostly male tend towards combat intensive situations.

But that's my entirely sexist viewpoint,
J. G.


 
Untitled        Posted by:  I. J. in response to Want to hear from EVERYONE...
6/14/99    05:47 AM

There's a little girl in all of us. In LARP you get to dress up in WW there're bombastic settings, fairy tale queens, rock n' roll princes who tempt our heart and other ways of communication besides kick, punch and a MP5 gun.
Inge
 

Marketing        Posted by:  A. M. in response to Want to hear from EVERYONE...
6/14/99    09:35 AM

Something else to consider... WW actually aimed its marketing $$ at women instead of just at male gamers. I guess it paid off.
 

Untitled        Posted by:  A. V. in response to Want to hear from EVERYONE...
6/14/99    06:11 PM

I've noticed that the LARP groups and the White Wolf players have been more inviting to women gamers than some of the table-top players. I love the 3 different LARPs I participate in, as well as the table top game. I have to say that being able to dress up for my part on the LARPs really adds an extra dimention of fun.

A.
aka Tsia


 

Untitled        Posted by:  G. D. in response to Want to hear from EVERYONE...
6/15/99    12:13 AM

Good question (about female LRPers)!  In Melbourne, Australia, the situation is similar. My personal experience is that there are a hell of a lot of women doing the rubber swords thing, who look down their noses at the 'mere' tabletop players.
 

Untitled        Posted by:  J. F. in response to Want to hear from EVERYONE...
6/19/99    08:00 PM

1. The World of Darkness is a soap opera, about  relationships more than combat.

2. LARP is a chance to dress up and play house.

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